Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Amiga Kit Amiga Store Iridium Banner AMIStore App Store A600 Memory

AuthorTopic: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?  (Read 19707 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2013, 09:52:02 AM »
Quote from: Crumb;741696
Your comparison is flawed as the difference is that a few weeks ago I bought a cute 12" iBook G4/1.33Ghz with shipping included for 80€, that's pocket money I can use to "play" with my favourite OS and no wife/gf will complain about that. Do you think spending 80€ is the same as spending 1000, 2000 or 3000€?

If you put in the comparison AROS it's even more favourable for AROS as you can run Windows natively on it to do "serious stuff".

You could but spending 80€ on a toy is not the same as spending 2000€. If you don't own an  x1000 you are validating my point.

I do intend to do "serious stuff" (which in my job is word processing and excel) in Linux PPC on X1000 so its not fun only. But I do feel joy for its ability to boot AmigaOS, and look forward to see OS 4.2 and beyond using it more and more. Its great Trevor provided proper Linux support.

So validity is only price? x86 and PPC Mac users back in days must be all mad then :-)

Good. I can`t get PPC Macs on such low prices in this part of Europe, where they are still considered fetish and niche hardware. Surely its not the same, but I again do buy one computer.

Again, why paying 110$ for MorphOS when you had perfectly usable MacOS X or Linux PPC on same hardware - using the kind of logic what you are software wise able to do. So you have more for OS then for hardware box. Its different demonstration of logic why I and some people have decided to go X1000 - we will pay sacrifice for hardware price to drive software development, while you kind of did other way around. You payed for OS more then for hardware even it was kind of un-necessary for "serious bussiness"


Not saying that is a bad strategy since Genesi left - but Hyperion simply did not choose the same. As PPC Macs market slowly dissappears, MorphOS team will need to find next target. I am very glad for SAM 460 port of MorphOS and looking forward to see it at DJ Nicks machine.

My own parallel is: I could never afford BlizzardPPC or A4000 back in the days, I am happy that, with much sacrifice, I can afford X1000 now.

Just waiting for X1000 to be assembled and shipped, as sig says. Its paid.

Quote from: Crumb;741696
Trevor efforts are important but keep in mind a RadeonHD driver is almost useless without 3D&Video acceleration (read: there's no much noticeable difference in 2D with let's say a R9800).

All in all. I don't think it's bashing, it's frustration from the Amiga community seeing that OS4.x Team is heading their favorite OS to disaster.

One in all, its a biggest step forward (what A-EON is doing) for AOS4 alone since original port and old A1 board. Why don`t I feel disaster you are predicting? Making PPC hardware possible, no matter the price, I do see as an achievement, as well as development for it.


Quote from: wawrzon;741697
you dont grasp the nuance or i am perhaps not deliberate about it. and please don mix morphos into it, they are actually (same as aros) providing a support for wide choice of mostly affordable hardware and i have never heard of morphos user or developer leaving the scene because he could not afford or justify the expenses to stay involved. on os4 this is definitely the case, it really takes dedication to stay with the platform. and this singling out only most dedicated and wealthiest as worthy members of the community instead to trying to spread the interest, gain young blood, seek to attract talented contributors not just some reach collectors is the mistake i talk about.

beyond that supporting multiple platforms with a single common effort (like aros does) is the actual contribution to variety of the community, instead of singling out just one of them, referring to it as only true superlative, and portraying the investment into it as only essential way to support the "amiga". and this is the other critic point.

Way better explained now.

I agree such strategy will not bring young blood, and I do disapprove level of stopping criticism by real users at Hyperions support forum. Things get locked so easily. Its better to have it then not to have it, but again questions raised there are by customers / registered users. Its not like C-USA with complete therads dissapearing, but is not a good strategy too.

As you do know, Acube provides nice entry system SAM 440. There are even loaner boards avail. I don`t know how many developers left specifically because of X1000 (please let me know who) because of frustration of not being able to pay for X1000. If I can manage a debt with 600EUR salary, I doub`t its impossible for people living in richer countries.

However, Trevor has provided some high end solution and software development and deserves credit for it. Not everyboody has a high end PC, or a Mac too. I have spend all the Classic days with A1200 020/28 FPU FAST RAM and didn`t just left it because I couldn`t get A4000.

Having new high end system usualy makes more affordable older boards on sale, so its not just loose-loose, it can be win-win
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:01:40 AM by vox »
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2013, 10:06:35 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;741698
It is the strategy that is critisized. And censoring everything will not solve anything. You cannot censor what people think and you cannot censor what people outside think. As soon as "Amigians" (AmigaOS user) get out and try to "sell" it they will get the same questions and wondering. And if they have no persuasive answers they will fail to win any new users. Or are the AmigaOS people happy with the situation?


I take your point, but I fail to see why people feel the need to criticise the strategy EVERY TIME OS4 is mentioned. An announcement of new stock of the X1000 is not the place for criticism of strategy.

Quote

What I "bashed" (I did not do that) was building new high-end (or better high-price) machines. I understood to a certain degree why Trevor created the X1000 (even though I personal think that "custom" systems have no chance in todays world) but why these two new machines? One as a replacement for X1000 (from comments it seems similar priced) and a new even more expensive. It would have made sense to offer a more advanced system in the midrange and a new better entry system and of course something for mobile but two new high-price systems? Amiga was a affordable good system at its time but now it is almost unpayable for most users. I think it is the completely wrong direction. To critisize that is valid. And as I said I talked to a number of ex-amiga developers (mostly former AmigaOS developers) and there was the red vs. blue bashing and similar only one reason, more important was that they lost trust in the future.


The high-end machine isn't for everyone, nor is it meant to be. There was a gap in the market for high-end, high-dollar AmigaOS computers. Trevor filled that gap.

I really can't see how that can be a bad thing. It's not like they stopped producing SAMs when the X1000 appeared - then I could understand people's frustration. But now you can get a nice little OS4 machine for not very much (certainly less than the original A500 in 1987), so what harm is there in producing the X1000? Why does it need to be yelled at every time it's mentioned? If you don't like it, that's fine - but people shouldn't keep repeating the same (usually false) arguments in threads that are announcements. Sure, open a different thread entitled "Is the X1000 a waste of money" or something - no problem with that. But this was a thread announcing the availability of them, and immediately the same old criticisms (some valid, some not) get wheeled out to rain on their parade.

It would just be so nice if the nay-sayers would let the people who choose to use AOS 4 celebrate good information without others trying to ruin it.
--
Ian Gledhill
ian.gledhill@btinternit.com (except it should be internEt of course...!)
Check out my shop! http://www.mutant-caterpillar.co.uk/shop/ - for 8-bit (and soon 16-bit) goodness!
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2013, 10:09:44 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;741599
A) Price.
B) PowerPC vs other.
C) Drivers.


I think it's the above that turns people off, rather than discussions. People who hoped for some kind of future involving expansion of the user base, easily realize when looking at contents of the above quote that there can't be no future; that with this chosen route there is no hope, no possible chance of expansion. This is what driving people away, the fact that it's nothing but a waste of time, better do something else. Wanting to discuss it is only natural, you want to express your views to others with the hope of the people in charge will change their ways, start thinking differently and going in the opposite direction (Of course it's just another let-down when those people instead of changing their strategy, just continues the spiral downwards by giving more of exactly the same instead of something different, but that's another matter). Discussions is what a discussion board like this is for, but all people don't like all discussions, all people doesn't always agree, that's only natural in a pluralistic, open and free world, there is nothing bad in that, and if there is a thread or post you don't like, simply jump past the post or leave the thread altogether. It's really as simple as that.

Starting meta-discussions like this thread is not a solution and it's rather an ugly thing to do because the sole purpose is to try to narrow down "allowed" views, "allowed" subjects, and "allowed" opinions. Who are YOU to tell others what to think, what to feel, and what to say? Why should YOU (or ANYONE for that matter) dictate what opinions and subjects should be allowed, and what not? This is the only purpose this thread has. And this is bad IMO. Not being able to talk freely in a discussion forum will only drive people away to a place where this freedom is allowed.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline yssing

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2013, 10:11:33 AM »
I think a lot of you should read the latest interview with Trevor, the driver thing is explained there.

Regarding the price of the x1000 system, yes it is a bit pricy, but really classic users pay good money for old and used hardware, so its nothing new.

Besides, its not like new macs are cheap either, and they are basically just your ordinary household PC.
 

Offline OlafS3

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Posts: 1541
  • Total likes: 0
Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2013, 10:18:08 AM »
To not further derail X1000 threads (or similar) I have created this thread for general discussions:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65503
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2013, 10:22:40 AM »
@ TakeMeHomeGrandma above

I did not want to start a discussion. I was tired of people hijacking the
Amiga x1000 announcements. Those users should have some safe ground where they are free from abuse.
Go Go Gadget Signature!
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2013, 10:35:35 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;741710
free from abuse.


OMG! "Abuse"?!
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2013, 11:19:01 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;741703
I think it's the above that turns people off, rather than discussions. People who hoped for some kind of future involving expansion of the user base, easily realize when looking at contents of the above quote that there can't be no future; that with this chosen route there is no hope, no possible chance of expansion. This is what driving people away, the fact that it's nothing but a waste of time, better do something else.


Apart from cheaper hardware, situation with MorphOS (and to some extent AROS) is similar. Action to change situation is way better then moaning, and that is what Trevor does. There are few people doing something to make things better and deserve a credit.

Quote
but all people don't like all discussions, all people doesn't always agree, that's only natural in a pluralistic, open and free world, there is nothing bad in that, and if there is a thread or post you don't like, simply jump past the post or leave the thread altogether. It's really as simple as that.


Where is pluralistic, open and free world, please let me know. Its quite an illusion on Internet, as well as in capitalism. Not to mention in communism.
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline Megamig

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2013, 11:35:43 AM »
The X1000 is poorly implemented and overpriced. How can one dare charge that amount of money for a prototype (especially when it is still not fully functional)

Secondly, how is Raspberry Pi Foundation able to turn out computers for under US$50, yet we have not seen a similar priced native compatible Amiga 4.x system
Too many A500s
2x A1200 (3.1 DKB Cobra inc. Ferret)
A2000 HD
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2013, 12:06:52 PM »
Quote from: vox;741720
Apart from cheaper hardware, situation with MorphOS is similar.


Of course MorphOS is also a niche OS developed at a Hobby basis with a tiny user base, but MorphOS is still being actively developed and AFAIK there is actually a plan to migrate to a better platform/ISA and to introduce modern OS features, etc.

Quote
Action to change situation is way better then moaning, and that is what Trevor does.


The X1000 probably pushed away more people than anything else in modern Amiga times (because of the points outlined in the OP). It was supposed to be the future of OS4, but when it turned out to be nothing but a poorly supported $3,000+ machine with 2005 level performance that never even was released in a proper way, then it suddenly became obvious to everyone that the plan had failed, that any hope of a future is gone. Had Trevor simply been sitting on his ass doing nothing, there would indeed have been one less motherboard for OS4 users to choose from, but there would probably have been more people hanging around now and at least still dreaming of a future. The X1000 was a dreamkiller, an eyeopener, it cracked open the protective little Amiga bubble and let in the cold breeze of 2013 realism into the red/white checkered fuzzy dreamworld. This caused many to wake up, look around, and say to themselves "what the hell am I still doing here"?

The problem isn't discussions or "negativity", the problem is:

   A) Price.
B) PowerPC vs other.
C) Drivers.


(I suppose you could add a D) Modern OS Features to this as well...?)

IMHO of course!

;)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline yssing

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2013, 12:13:31 PM »
TMGHM , do you know that for a fact, or are you just being, well you, and trying your best to bash the x1000.

I am very sure that the x1000 did not push people away, I actually believe it did quite the opposite.
 

Offline NovaCoder

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2013, 12:27:42 PM »
Quote from: yssing;741733
I am very sure that the x1000 did not push people away, I actually believe it did quite the opposite.


I think it did push some people away, I was one of them :)

I was waiting to see what would be announced after Hyperion won their long running legal battle with Amiga Inc and was at that point considering buying into OS4.   When Hyperion's big plan turned out to be the X1000 launch, I lost interest in OS4 and decided to stick with classics instead.
Life begins at 100 MIPS!


Nice Ports on AmiNet!
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2013, 12:39:07 PM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;741734
I think it did push some people away, I was one of them :)

I was waiting to see what would be announced after Hyperion won their long running legal battle with Amiga Inc and was at that point considering buying into OS4.   When Hyperion's big plan turned out to be the X1000 launch, I lost interest in OS4 and decided to stick with classics instead.


Indeed!

But at least you are still around!

:)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline eliyahu

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2013, 12:51:07 PM »
@thread

there are many good examples of genuine, well-considered criticism in this thread. good. that's healthy. there's also some trolling. that's not so good.

when you criticize, please use facts. also please avoid using insulting phrases like insinuating people who disagree with you are "drinking the kool-aid." oh, and making things up completely is not on.

but other than that, have at it. no one is trying to prevent opinions from being shared. just the trolling. :)

-- eliyahu
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."
 

Offline yssing

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »
NovaCoder, and it a shame it pushed you away. The classic does benefit a lot from your work though :)

But as Trevor said, the x1000 sold more than 200 but less than 2000, one can only speculate on the numbers actually sold, but it does confirm that the user base is a lot bigger than the handfull of users here on amiga.org