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AuthorTopic: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?  (Read 19503 times)

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Offline haywirepc

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 02:13:17 AM »
People pointing out that they disagree with spending 3,000$ for a computer thats missing drivers or that has components that are not even supported by the OS is not bashing, its just expressing an opinion some don't agree with.

You can drink the cool aid, but its still the truth that OS4 does not fully support the xena chip that was one justification for why the computer is or was so expensive. They might as well have just glued a mystery chip on the board and not even connected it for real, since years have gone by and still no one has shown os4 using this chip or the OS even supporting it in any meaningful way.

Hyperion has not said when or if the support will be there.

Hyperion has not said when the second core will be available for use.

Hyperion have not said when the drivers will be fully working.

People have a right to express their opinions without being labeled bashers for
doing so. If you drank the cool aid and can not even see why people are critical, then I feel sorry for you.

Its okay to be a dreamer, but just don't dream so much you lose sight of
reality entirely.
 

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 02:19:54 AM »
Quote from: haywirepc;741670
People pointing out that they disagree with spending 3,000$ for a computer thats missing drivers or that has components that are not even supported by the OS is not bashing, its just expressing an opinion some don't agree with.

You can drink the cool aid, but its still the truth that OS4 does not fully support the xena chip that was one justification for why the computer is or was so expensive. They might as well have just glued a mystery chip on the board and not even connected it for real, since years have gone by and still no one has shown os4 using this chip or the OS even supporting it in any meaningful way.

Hyperion has not said when or if the support will be there.

Hyperion has not said when the second core will be available for use.

Hyperion have not said when the drivers will be fully working.

People have a right to express their opinions without being labeled bashers for
doing so. If you drank the cool aid and can not even see why people are critical, then I feel sorry for you.

Its okay to be a dreamer, but just don't dream so much you lose sight of
reality entirely.

Its OK to be a critic, just don`t critise so much you lose sight of reality entirely.

You get AmigaOS 4.2 license with X1000, and as soon as its out for everybody its out for all X1000 users.

And you are just-not-up-to-date.
SATA and Audio drivers are out, only network remains onboard out of board components.

Dual core, 3D etc. is work in progress OS 4.2
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=863

XMOS Support
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=654

Just as an example, MorphOS faster, longer in development OS, with better development team
currently supports only single core on G5, 1GB RAM and no RadeonHD cards, and has no viable plans
when this will change.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 02:26:38 AM by vox »
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Offline magnetic

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 02:35:01 AM »
Interesting poll. (for a change)

When a niche market product has a price that high its certainly subject to criticism.

I do agree with the OP abouts points A and B. Having said that

POINT C IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE.

And its not just drivers its the LACK OF SOFTWARE thats the real problem. I mean $3500 us you can have a system you can learn AE, FCP, or whatever pro software on and make a living.  So its pretty hard to justfiy the price. Thats why i'm glad it runs on my peg2.
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Offline Lurch

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 05:10:12 AM »
I have huge interest in OS4.x. But sinking nearly $3000 into it isn't an option, maybe if I won the local lotto ;-)

I will in future however look at buying a OS4.x setup and I've missed out some good bargains around the 300 GBP mark, I'd probably seriously look at swapping my A1200 goodies for a nice OS 4.X setup.

Although I do enjoy tinkering with the A1200 classic hardware.
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Offline magnetic

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2013, 05:21:34 AM »
Lurch

Get your self a second hand Pegasos 2 its probably the best os4 platform atm. And good price, plus you can run morphos as well as linux and macos 9 and X
bPlan Pegasos2 G4@1ghz
Quad Boot:Reg. MorphOS | OS4.1 U4 |Ubuntu GNU-Linux | MacOS X

Amiga 2000 Rom Switcher w/ 3.1 + 1.3 | HardFrame SCSI | CBM Ram board| A Squared LIVE! 2000 | Vlab Motion | Firecracker 24 gfx

Commodore CDTV: 68010 | ECS | 9mb Ram | SCSI -TV | 3.9 Rom | Developer EPROMs
 

Offline XDelusion

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2013, 05:44:11 AM »
I'm not sure why threads that are full of posts by people who want to voice their opinion get locked. Kinda defeats the point of having forums to discuss things in, regardless if they are of a positive or negative light.

 I enjoy reading experiences of people who have bought one and are happy, and of people who have issues with the hardware, and are skeptical.
 To censor all negative criticism, seems to me, a way to mislead the public. I want both sides, I want three or four sides, I want to know what others are thinking within the community too, this way I can kind of see how successful said hardware will be and is in relation to the future of Amiga OS and potential options for hardware to run it on.

 If all negative criticism is banned, censored, and so forth, then it would lead one to believe that everyone thinks this hardware is fantastic, or OS 4 is fantastic, etc. etc. etc. leaving us in a very unfair and unbalanced situation. Border line propaganda at that.

 I say unban the other post, get on with reality.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 07:27:39 AM by XDelusion »
Earth has a lot of things other folks might want... like the whole planet. And maybe these folks would like a few changes made, like more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and room for their way of life. - William S. Burroughs
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2013, 06:28:15 AM »
I think AEON, as a company, is trying to get stuff sold.  They are following a dead-end track to the very end.  Once they get there I don't think there is a plan B to save their efforts.  I think Trevor Dickinson is making an honorable effort to try to push the plan A solution but there really isn't much of a market for PPC desktop computers as a whole nowadays.

When I found out that AmigaOS 4.x was going to stay PPC-only even though improved FPGA-based solutions started presenting themselves as a sequel to the Classic Amiga chipsets, I reverted to AmigaOS 3.x and started looking toward AROS as a solution for any next-generation style needs.  I especially value AROS 68k as a potential improvement over and above AmigaOS 3.x as I start adding features that the chipsets have that the OS never adequately supported.

My vote:  No.  Bashing the X1000 is justifiable given that the AmigaOS team will forever be understaffed due to being a commercial venture with a limited market.  Even the closed-source shareware route of MorphOS is of limited usefulness since it is PPC only and also understaffed (though MorphOS is faster than AmigaOS 4.x since MorphOS doesn't use interfaces in its shared libraries).

I think that the only hobby operating systems worth mentioning are AROS and Haiku.  AROS, because it is open-source, supports a number of processor architectures, and is largely self-supporting.  Also Haiku because it is multithreaded and pervasively object-oriented (not to mention largely open-source).  Both of those are fairly quick compared to modern commercial OSs on modern hardware.
 

Offline Lurch

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2013, 06:47:48 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;741678
Lurch

Get your self a second hand Pegasos 2 its probably the best os4 platform atm. And good price, plus you can run morphos as well as linux and macos 9 and X


Might do that, would be good to run multiple OS's. Then I could sell off the Power Mac :-)

Will keep a look out for a board, thanks Magnetic.
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Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2013, 08:29:21 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;741672
Interesting poll. (for a change)
POINT C IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE.

And its not just drivers its the LACK OF SOFTWARE thats the real problem. I mean $3500 us you can have a system you can learn AE, FCP, or whatever pro software on and make a living.  So its pretty hard to justfiy the price. Thats why i'm glad it runs on my peg2.

Its the same software base as with all AOS4 systems. There are no new only X1000 apps, but most demanding can use extra horsepower (e.g. video encoding, Timberwolf, AmiCygnix ...).

Same situation, or almost the same, is on MorphOS / AROS market.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!

So are we gonna bash them to death, too?

Don‚t forget the current Classics software side (Aminet ...)

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!

I am glad Trevor started the software side on funding RadeonHD driver and LibreOffice. Major stepes once done. Deserves credit there in seeing what AOS needs.
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2013, 08:35:40 AM »
Eliyahu, I think you have your work cut out for you before this forum can be called truly welcoming for all AmigaOS users.

It's unbelievable... the thing that draws the most criticism on an Amiga forum, is when somebody releases a new top end AmigaOS machine.
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Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2013, 08:39:48 AM »
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;741683
I think AEON, as a company, is trying to get stuff sold.  They are following a dead-end track to the very end.  Once they get there I don't think there is a plan B to save their efforts.  I think Trevor Dickinson is making an honorable effort to try to push the plan A solution but there really isn't much of a market for PPC desktop computers as a whole nowadays.

I think that the only hobby operating systems worth mentioning are AROS and Haiku.  AROS, because it is open-source, supports a number of processor architectures, and is largely self-supporting.  Also Haiku because it is multithreaded and pervasively object-oriented (not to mention largely open-source).  Both of those are fairly quick compared to modern commercial OSs on modern hardware.

We (AOS4, MorphOS users) ARE the PPC Market.

Its good you will support 68k AROS. I like you having informed choice.

But I do feel AmigaOS 4 has reached quite few milestones, and needs to be supported. Specially when A-EON got involved. Trevor is quite decent and open fellow and pushes things forward. He is beside Acube only one.

Quote from: XDelusion;741679
If all negative criticism is banned, censored, and so forth, then it  would lead one to believe that everyone thinks this hardware is  fantastic, or OS 4 is fantastic, etc. etc. etc. leaving us in a very  unfair and unbalanced situation. Border line propaganda at that.

 I say unban the other post, get on with reality.

Agreed, but I do remember myself being banned for C-USA criticism on few boards ... and it did not lead to everyone believed hardware and software are great and well priced.

Its not that I am for banning, but for balance.

I do agree its demanding to have AmigaOS expensive and dedicated machine, but so was always. Same would be with FPGA 68k or MorphOS, leave AROS aside as able to run on 68k and PPC too.

In my experience it is expensive, but somehow cheaper or same as with high end in Commodore era - having in mind fact that I was much poorer at the time. And decided to go for X1000 instead of high end Mac, just because of there is some path of progress for AOS4 and I want to add my 2 cents (well, way more) to it.

@olaf
Quote
You sound like you are doing marketing for a oldtimer or a piece of art   (f.e. painting) in a auction. But we are talking not about collectors   items but about computers that are today normal for everyone. That is   what the X1000 has to compare with and there it is completely crazy   overprized. And when I hear that the successor (propably) is not (much)   cheaper and that another planned model even more expensive then it  looks  completely insane. It would not work in the 68k community, not in  AROS  nor MorphOS camp and for sure not in the "outside world" but only  in  AmigaOS camp where a couple of hundred user seem to buy everything  at  any price when it is running AmigaOS. The AmigaOS users are melk  cows  but they seem to be happy with it. I personal had hoped that  Trevor  would invest his money to go in the opposite direction (cheaper  options  to get a bigger community) but it seems not. In the AROS world  people  are working on cheap options like ARM-based devices so I hope  this will  succeed.

Well X1000 can compete with existing market its on - I find it valuable and expandable enough to pay quite huge difference from similarly speced SAM 460. Yes, AmigaOne wasn`t cheap original, SAMs were neither for their perforance levels, but neither were Pegs2 or PPC Macs when they were new. It wasn`t such an extreme as X1000, but yet Trevor explained PA Semi alone costs 500-900$ now, and that they haven`t pushed the price up but rendered their profit margin down (no matter how strange that looks) to have X1000 sold some more.

In the end it will be limited series First Contact that was able to push AmigaOS 4 beyond. Kind of what top level G5 Macs are today.

ARM AROS sounds nice, but yet it will be 2nd or 3rd or 4th os on ARM based devices, just like it is with x86. I don`t see e.g. devoted AresOne line being cheap x86 selling in thousands.

Having choices of your own doesn`t negate ability of others to have choices, just like introducing right to someone else doesn`t
necessarily hurt right of your own.

So this kind of X1000 hate, was never before seen when e.g. Pegasos or MorphOS hardware was introduced.

remember there were long and dark time with no HARDWARE at all. Yes, now those who want AOS4, like I do, have to pay for custom hardware.

Would I be happier with Moana? Probably. But I do see that A-EON is doing something for that small AOS4 community and find it sad that its more bashed then leeches like C-USA / Roberto.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 08:51:14 AM by vox »
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline ciento

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2013, 08:49:05 AM »
Quote from: XDelusion;741679
I'm not sure why threads that are full of posts by people who want to voice their opinion get locked.

(We can't be trusted, to stop reading boring repetitive flamefests
on our own, or skip posts that are rants, and move on to ones
of interest. )

moderator's note: this post has been edited removing content of a false and libelous nature. for future reference, please see our posting guidelines, specifically:
    Posts of a libellous nature are not allowed.
Everyone  has a right to their own opinion, whether you think it right or wrong.  Posting false information about an individual is not only bad form, but  could become a serious problem, both for the poster, and for Amiga.org  itself.
this is completely unacceptable here and we have zero tolerance for it. any repeat of this will result in posting restrictions. this is your only warning.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 01:02:08 PM by eliyahu »
 

Offline Crumb

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2013, 09:35:51 AM »
Quote from: vox;741689
Same situation, or almost the same, is on MorphOS / AROS market.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!


Your comparison is flawed as the difference is that a few weeks ago I bought a cute 12" iBook G4/1.33Ghz with shipping included for 80€, that's pocket money I can use to "play" with my favourite OS and no wife/gf will complain about that. Do you think spending 80€ is the same as spending 1000, 2000 or 3000€?

If you put in the comparison AROS it's even more favourable for AROS as you can run Windows natively on it to do "serious stuff".

Quote
So are we gonna bash them to death, too?


You could but spending 80€ on a toy is not the same as spending 2000€. If you don't own an  x1000 you are validating my point.

Quote
I am glad Trevor started the software side on funding RadeonHD driver and LibreOffice. Major stepes once done. Deserves credit there in seeing what AOS needs.


Trevor efforts are important but keep in mind a RadeonHD driver is almost useless without 3D&Video acceleration (read: there's no much noticeable difference in 2D with let's say a R9800).

All in all. I don't think it's bashing, it's frustration from the Amiga community seeing that OS4.x Team is heading their favourite OS to disaster.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2013, 09:39:04 AM »
Quote from: vox;741663
Again, no one is saying someone using SAM 440 is NOT an Amigan - what a fake change of thesis.

...

I don`t see how X1000 makes further separation. Its like saying G5 support in MorphOS is further separation and not advancement.

...

So I don`t see these as "valid criticism"


you dont grasp the nuance or i am perhaps not deliberate about it. and please don mix morphos into it, they are actually (same as aros) providing a support for wide choice of mostly affordable hardware and i have never heard of morphos user or developer leaving the scene because he could not afford or justify the expenses to stay involved. on os4 this is definitely the case, it really takes dedication to stay with the platform. and this singling out only most dedicated and wealthiest as worthy members of the community instead to trying to spread the interest, gain young blood, seek to attract talented contributors not just some reach collectors is the mistake i talk about.

beyond that supporting multiple platforms with a single common effort (like aros does) is the actual contribution to variety of the community, instead of singling out just one of them, referring to it as only true superlative, and portraying the investment into it as only essential way to support the "amiga". and this is the other critic point.
 

Offline OlafS3

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2013, 09:48:31 AM »
Quote from: spirantho;741690
Eliyahu, I think you have your work cut out for you before this forum can be called truly welcoming for all AmigaOS users.

It's unbelievable... the thing that draws the most criticism on an Amiga forum, is when somebody releases a new top end AmigaOS machine.

It is the strategy that is critisized. And censoring everything will not solve anything. You cannot censor what people think and you cannot censor what people outside think. As soon as "Amigians" (AmigaOS user) get out and try to "sell" it they will get the same questions and wondering. And if they have no persuasive answers they will fail to win any new users. Or are the AmigaOS people happy with the situation?

What I "bashed" (I did not do that) was building new high-end (or better high-price) machines. I understood to a certain degree why Trevor created the X1000 (even though I personal think that "custom" systems have no chance in todays world) but why these two new machines? One as a replacement for X1000 (from comments it seems similar priced) and a new even more expensive. It would have made sense to offer a more advanced system in the midrange and a new better entry system and of course something for mobile but two new high-price systems? Amiga was a affordable good system at its time but now it is almost unpayable for most users. I think it is the completely wrong direction. To critisize that is valid. And as I said I talked to a number of ex-amiga developers (mostly former AmigaOS developers) and there was the red vs. blue bashing and similar only one reason, more important was that they lost trust in the future.