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AuthorTopic: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?  (Read 21295 times)

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Offline ElPolloDiabl

Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« on: July 22, 2013, 04:30:17 PM »
The criticism has become tiring.

A) Price. Can't be helped because it is made in small batches.
B) PowerPC vs other. As a hobby system I suppose it doesn't matter.
C) Drivers. Coming along, but most people who buy it don't seem to care.

Not a fan, because PowerPC has probably been replaced by ARM. I should just keep the hobby alive and not get bogged down in arguments.

  There is a large faction of people who remember Amithlon and know that you can use an x64 computer.
  There is another faction that like to take advantage of old hardware to run an Amiga compatible OS. You could quiet these down by porting to one of the old Macs.
  I'm not sure when the x64 faction will get what they want.
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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2013, 05:47:50 PM »
This is supposed to be a forum for helping users of old computers.  The "bashing" in general was old as of day one, and has driven away many great members.  Good job, y'all.  :(
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Offline OlafS3

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 05:57:54 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;741609
This is supposed to be a forum for helping users of old computers.  The "bashing" in general was old as of day one, and has driven away many great members.  Good job, y'all.  :(

I talked to a number of former amiga developers (one even warned me to start with it at all). That they "were driven away" was only partly because of red vs. blue (or any other colour) but because many disliked the strategy and the route was chosen (many were former AmigaOS developer and dropped it (and all other platforms) when their hardware died). So life is not that easy...
 

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 06:29:41 PM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;741599
The criticism has become tiring.

A) Price. Can't be helped because it is made in small batches.
B) PowerPC vs other. As a hobby system I suppose it doesn't matter.
C) Drivers. Coming along, but most people who buy it don't seem to care.

Not a fan, because PowerPC has probably been replaced by ARM. I should just keep the hobby alive and not get bogged down in arguments.

  There is a large faction of people who remember Amithlon and know that you can use an x64 computer.
  There is another faction that like to take advantage of old hardware to run an Amiga compatible OS. You could quiet these down by porting to one of the old Macs.
  I'm not sure when the x64 faction will get what they want.

People that buy X1000 know what they are buying, and they still do (like I will) just because that is the way to support OS and development. No matter how expensive, bad etc. it looks like MorphOS has no custom hardware anymore and AROS has luck of running on pretty anywhere. That make SAMs and A-EON products pritty much only Amigas in hardware sense, arguable, but as custom hardware built for AmigaOS, true.
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Offline spirantho

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 07:08:46 PM »
The incessantly negative attitude of many on A.org has definitely driven away a number of good members. If you look on places like AW.net where it's a much more friendly forum for all flavours, you'll probably find a number of members who used to frequent here.

Myself I hang around because I'm a fan of classic Amigas, and this is still the best place for that - I just wish there was more tolerance towards people who for whatever reason prefer AmigaOS4 to AROS or MOS for their NG kicks.

As it stands, it's not as bad right now as it used to be, but it's still pretty bad. As soon as I saw the thread about the X1000 (which is really good news as it allows a lot of people who want a top-end, purpose-built AmigaOS machine to get one - more Amigas, how can it be bad news?), I wondered how long it would be before someone unnecessarily posted a completely unhelpful, negative comment, and what was a really positive piece of news.

It was the third post.

Within the first five posts or so, someone had rated it with 1 star. Why? How can new hardware possibly be a BAD thing? If you don't want it - don't buy it.

I really wish this forum was truly open, but as long as there's this red vs. blue attitude, and as long as people fail to accept that their own choice may not equal somebody else's, it's not going to happen, and that's a real shame.

It would be so much nicer if people stuck to the "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" axiom.

Just my 2c (as someone who has every AmigaOS from 1.3 to 4.1, and also MOS and AROS)
--
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Offline eliyahu

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 08:49:14 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;741622
The incessantly negative attitude of many on A.org has definitely driven away a number of good members. If you look on places like AW.net where it's a much more friendly forum for all flavours, you'll probably find a number of members who used to frequent here.

it's a tough balance, unfortunately. certainly people should be allowed to criticize developments they don't like, but i would hope at least coming from a constructive place. there is a difference between saying things like:

"the amigaone x1000 is way to expensive! and there are no drivers! no one in their right mind would buy this dreck."

... and:

"the amigaone x1000 is too expensive for me. maybe if the price point was under $1000, i could consider purchasing it. also, while i see some of the drivers have been finished, it's a shame that 3D support isn't there yet. i really would want to play 3D games on it if i bought it."

anyone see the difference? and then we get comments like "it sucks" which add nothing to the conversation. but mostly the issue isn't what is said, but why it is said and the fact that it is repeated in. every. single. thread. some folks don't care for the next-generation machines. ok, no problem. and some folks don't like AOS4. again, no problem. but if you're someone who hates both and keeps posting anything and everything negative about anything relating to either just because you think it makes your preferences look better, that's childish. and rude. and trolling.

and very, very off-putting. believe me: it does drive members away. :(

the mods do their best to keep things civil, and we ask that anytime you see something you think might violate amiga.org's terms of service, please, hit that report button. genuine (and constructive) criticism is not only fine, but welcome, but if you see trolling from the same usual suspects, try to ignore if you can and respond with positivity and civility. hopefully that will drive the trolls crazy enough to leave. heh.

-- eliyahu
"How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."
 

Offline NovaCoder

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2013, 11:52:03 PM »
I think many classic users (like yours truly) are disappointed with the lack of progress/direction of OS4 development over the past few years and who also didn't agree with the X1000 'vision' from the beginning.   This lack of faith has been justified by the limited availability of the hardware, the cost of the hardware and how much work remains before OS4 can fully support all of it's hardware features (which let's face it, may never happen).

But in saying that, I realize that it's pointless to 'bash' the X1000, it is what it is and at least they tried to do something interesting.

If you've brought an X1000 and are happy with your purchase then good for you :)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 06:06:10 AM by NovaCoder »
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Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 11:57:36 PM »
Quote from: eliyahu;741634
"the amigaone x1000 is too expensive for me. maybe if the price point was under $1000, i could consider purchasing it. also, while i see some of the drivers have been finished, it's a shame that 3D support isn't there yet. i really would want to play 3D games on it if i bought it."
-- eliyahu

Its easy to bash hardware that comes before software supports it, hope Hyperion will do OS 4.2 properly with Cyrus and stop that crazy idea in the future, so that argument is lost.

On side of price, there is quite cheap SAM 440 board as entry system. And its entry system that doesn`t provide much horsepower.

Under $1000 you can build a SAM 460 system that is quite capable and not so weak as cheaper of X1000. But limited in expandability and having same plague of no 3D drivers. But again, hope it will change soon.

So there are both entry and $1000 systems, so X1000 just can`t be it.
And I would first love if it was cheaper - just because my loan to bank would be lesser.
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline Madshib

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 12:00:33 AM »
I just mentioned something to this effect on the Yahoo Amiga forum I am a subscriber to. The computer is expensive, yes, but I have no experience with 4.1.

When my dad bought our A1000 in 85, it was 800 bucks with 512k, a 1010, and KS1.2. We didn't need the monitor as we were upgrading from a C64 and had a 1701. He was so excited about using Workbench and I was excited about playing Defender of the Crown and SDI. I was 7 years old and grew up with this machine and the subsequent upgrades that followed. Comparatively speaking though, it was the cheapest thing out there that did what it did(and still does for all the people I see on here with A1000s).

Now, in 2013, computer hardware is dirt cheap and nothing here seems truly "special" anymore. What remains special is the operating systems in which we function digitally. I'd like to try AOS4.1, but I can't justify the price for the machine that it is now developed for. I can still get my hands on a 3.1 machine though.

I just bought a used A1200 base for $150USD and am looking forward to building it up and start programming in C on this platform and for *nix, shortly after I relive some old teenage memories on the thing.

I guess my point is I'm trying to understand the new direction with the X1000 and it only seems to cater to people "in the know" with some serious dough.

I couldn't afford the A1200 back in 94, so I bought a new A600 with no regrets. nearly 20 years later, I have the 1200 I wanted and maybe in 15+ years I can pick up the X1000 when someone is selling one to buy their X4000.

Here's to hoping :drink:
 

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 12:01:31 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;741651
I think many classic users (like yours truly) are disappointing with the lack of progress/direction of OS4 development over the past few years and who also didn't agree with the X1000 'vision' from the beginning.   This lack of faith has been justified by the limited availability of the hardware, the cost of the hardware and how much work remains before OS4 can fully support all of it's hardware features (which let's face it, may never happen).

But in saying that, I realize that it's pointless to 'bash' the X1000, it is what it is and at least they tried to do something interesting.

If you've brought an X1000 and are happy with your purchase then good for you :)

How come that at least I do witness:
- There are more hardware choices then ever before in AOS4 world
- There is way more dirrection with OS4 then in time Amiga Inc ruled its development
- Those who haven`t agree with X1000 vision, haven`t presenting any competing hardware, so they just disagree, their right not to be customers
- Time to support X1000 hardware is needed because its small team, but without new hardware to support new OS features would not have much point, so chicken or the egg ...
-  (which let's face it, may never happen) You really believe 2GB RAM Barrier, support for other core and 3D may never happen, even its all promised for OS 4.2?
- X1000 users complain almost none, they all say their AmigaOS 4 experience improved with it, as well as it can do a lot sadly under Linux for now
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline NovaCoder

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 12:22:37 AM »
Quote from: vox;741655
-  (which let's face it, may never happen) You really believe 2GB RAM Barrier, support for other core and 3D may never happen, even its all promised for OS 4.2?


Yep I think support for all of the X1000 features (dual core, 64bit, Xena, SATA etc) may never happen, would loved to be proved wrong of course.
Life begins at 100 MIPS!


Nice Ports on AmiNet!
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 12:39:49 AM »
@vox
the critic at x1000 and the attempted aone xxx hardware line may be, say, "constructive" even from those who are not interested or not intending to buy one. a valid critic point is that it fragments the community even more at times where all attempt should be directed at consolidating it. producing expensive hardware, many cannot afford, drives people away if they are told they are not true amigans as long as they dont invest into it. introducing unique features on expensive systems that may lead to lack of compatibility with lower end systems is another dangerous move (think of xena as example) accidentally it has not got into effect until now, just because it has not taken off at all.

variety is a good thing and i applaud the idea of having more choice of hardware for whomever desires it (also x1k and the like). however there has to be some common denominator for the whole scene or at least notion towards it, instead of separatist tendencies to be observed now. the alternative being forced into something or excluded will not work out for the common good i fear.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 12:41:57 AM by wawrzon »
 

Offline Rob

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2013, 01:01:36 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;741657
Yep I think support for all of the X1000 features (dual core, 64bit, Xena, SATA etc) may never happen, would loved to be proved wrong of course.


SATA was already supported when it shipped.  XMOS support is there also, it's just that no-one has done anything useful with it yet.
 

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2013, 01:10:44 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;741660
@vox
the critic at x1000 and the attempted aone xxx hardware line may be, say, "constructive" even from those who are not interested or not intending to buy one. a valid critic point is that it fragments the community even more at times where all attempt should be directed at consolidating it. producing expensive hardware, many cannot afford, drives people away if they are told they are not true amigans as long as they dont invest into it. introducing unique features on expensive systems that may lead to lack of compatibility with lower end systems is another dangerous move (think of xena as example) accidentally it has not got into effect until now, just because it has not taken off at all.

variety is a good thing and i applaud the idea of having more choice of hardware for whomever desires it (also x1k and the like). however there has to be some common denominator for the whole scene or at least notion towards it, instead of separatist tendencies to be observed now. the alternative being forced into something or excluded will not work out for the common good i fear.

Again, no one is saying someone using SAM 440 is NOT an Amigan - what a fake change of thesis.

There is no lack of compatibility with lower ends, they will just benefit less from new OS features (and thus may not all move to OS 4.2) and may find demanding apps like Libre or Timberwolf once done - slow but hopefully usable. But have lower alternatives surely in other apps.

I don`t see how X1000 makes further separation. Its like saying G5 support in MorphOS is further separation and not advancement.

It is biggest progress since it dictates new advanced features needed - 3D support for RadeonsHD had no meaning before SAM460, and so now SMP, breaking 2GB RAM barrier etc. And only Classic Blizzards could be left out (MorphOS did long time ago).

So I don`t see these as "valid criticism"
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja
 

Offline vox

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 01:13:41 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;741657
Yep I think support for all of the X1000 features (dual core, 64bit, Xena, SATA etc) may never happen, would loved to be proved wrong of course.
Xena and SATA is there, only 64 bit mode is not planned for now - since its not a real speed up and might be needed to brake 4GB barrier, which is not at plan now. But basic ones like dual core and RadeonHD 3D are, as you know, announced for OS 4.2. So that means you don`t believe there will be ever OS 4.2 such as promised, even with reported progress and license pre purchase of all X1000 users?

Weird. So if it happens will you buy me a case of beer from your region? :-) :hammer:
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way! http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja and https://www.facebook.com/rasvoja