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AuthorTopic: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?  (Read 6267 times)

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Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2012, 03:34:41 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;716499
you can forget more than two gigabytes (which isn't needed anyway).


Since you, and various other people in various threads are morally opposed to having 4GB of ram on the Amiga Megacomputer I have decided to stop harping on it.  I will stop talking about the 4GB limit if you do?

> OK

Ok. :)
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2012, 03:51:57 AM »
Nobody's opposed to having it - we just don't think that there's any particular reason to do so, outside of heavy-duty stuff like multimedia editing.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2012, 03:53:31 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;716502
The 68020 can address a full 4GB, sure,


Actually Motorola 680x0 addresses 32GB.  There are 8 banks of 4GB in hardware since day one.*

What you meant is just that they can only directly address 4GB.  But they can indirectly address 32GB.


* The 32GB of RAM limitation is a secret known only to us hardcore asm c0derz and hardcore hardware deziners.  shhh don't tell anybody. :cool:

Quote
but how many accelerators even support that much RAM, let alone in a form that's economical to max out? The most I can recall seeing on a non-PPC accelerator is 256MB, and the average is much more in the 16-32MB range than anything higher.


In 1987, 4GB of ram would have been over $200,000 :eek: I think.  Surprisingly, most ppl could not afford that. :mickeymouse:

But if you mean "Why is Jens not putting more ram on his brand new accelerators" then I have no idea.

Iirc Natamis have 512MB on the motherboard + some more on the CPU card + some PCI slots so there are various ways to add more.

My brand new bgcpc came with 10GB of ram.  Now I want my Amiga to have 32GB.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline amiman99

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 04:13:43 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716501
@rai-clan
Dude, you are awesome!  Respect!  :cool:



Amiman99 has:

Your little bitty itsy bitsy teeny weeny A600 has 32MB RAM?
You rawk hard!  That's the spirit! :banana:
Hell Yeah!!!
A500 KS 2.1, 1MB Chip, 68000
A600 KS 3.1, 2MB Chip, ACA630 32MB RAM
A1000 KS 1.3, 8MB RAM
A1200 KS 3.1, Blizzard IV 50MHz 64MB RAM
A2000 KS 2.1, 68030 25MHz, 6MB RAM
A3000 KS 3.1, 68030 25MHz, 16MB RAM
A4000 KS 3.0, 68040 25MHz, 16MB RAM
CDTV KS 3.1, 4MB RAM
CD32
(AROS BOX) Dead :(
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2012, 04:23:50 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716506
Since you, and various other people in various threads are morally opposed to having 4GB of ram on the Amiga Megacomputer I have decided to stop harping on it.  I will stop talking about the 4GB limit if you do?

> OK

Ok. :)
I'm not morally opposed to filling up the address space completely. It would be cool for the novelty factor alone, but if the OS, by default, only supports half of that, then there's no point in having it... which actually sucks massive turds :(

Which leads me back to NewAllocMem and NewAllocVec: Which OS revision are they part of, and can they work with KS2/3?
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2012, 04:28:29 AM »
Quote from: cgutjahr;716500

eight? Why eight? how big are the animations, 40x40 or something like that, and only one displayed at any given time with no scrolling taking place?


The screenbuffers are only used for special fx.  These special fx were added in Total Chaos 7 I think.

The special fx can be any size at all, and sometimes cover the whole screen.  so their size can be anything from 32x32 to 544x448.   Maybe they could go all the way to 640x512 in the future.

I calculate up the gfx based on simple algos using small tiles and then draw them out into the buffer.  Then blit the smallest part of the screenbuffer that covers the whole fx onto the screen.

The animation is rigged to loop or pingpong according to the 8 frames.

The fx could be smoother and kewler if I could do, for example 60 frames.

I just noticed that if you are low on memory.  I mean "just low" not "out" then I disable these fx and don't allocate the memory for them.  This must be the secret to why the game runs on Magnus' 24MB Amiga.

Who says I don't cater to the low end Amigas? :)


Quote

The Total Chaos distribution is bigger than 90 MB and takes 10 minutes to self-extract on a 68030 CPU. That's why you limit yourself.


Nope.  That is why you buy a 68040 or 68060. :biglaugh:

68030 came out in 1987.  It was way kewl.  I loved my 030.  It rawked my world. :knuddel:

68040 came out in 1990 and I bought mine in 1992 in my A4000/040. My 25Mhz 040 was 3x the speed of my 25Mhz 030 A3000 at unlhaing. :knuddel::knuddel::knuddel:  I timed it many times.  But I still loved to write optimized asm routines for the tiny 256 byte caches in the 030 until 1994.  Then I just got sick of it.  Sorry.  68040 forever! :biglaugh:

I reward ppl who support the Amiga with purchases of 040 and 060 by giving them something that makes use of it.
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline motrucker

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2012, 04:37:37 AM »
I can't believe this thread! Sounds like you all only use your Amigas for playing games. No one works with graphics any more?
A2000 GVP 40MHz \'030, 21Mb RAM SD/FF, 2 floppies, internal CD-ROM drive, micromys v3 w/laser mouse
A1000 Microbotics Starboard II w/2Mb 1080, & external floppy (AIRdrive)
C-128 w/1571, 1750, & Final Cartridge III+
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2012, 04:43:53 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;716515
I'm not morally opposed to filling up the address space completely. It would be cool for the novelty factor alone,

Ok, glad to hear it :)

A lot of times you sound really really negative.

Quote

 but if the OS, by default, only supports half of that, then there's no point in having it... which actually sucks massive turds :(

There is absolutely no way in hell to patch the old AllocMem() etc. to support memory above 2GB without breaking everything.  Whoever wrote that routine made a terrible mistake. :(

Quote

Which leads me back to NewAllocMem and NewAllocVec: Which OS revision are they part of, and can they work with KS2/3?

They can work with any kickstart v1.0 or higher.

They are basically just like the old Allocmem() without wasting the sign bit the way Allocmem does.

I guess what you are saying is you have some favorite old program that (like a sound or video editor) that uses tons of ram and you want it to use the memory above 2GB.  I can understand that.

Here are ways to make old nonupdated software work with ram above 2GB:
1. We can patch the RAM: drive to prefer to use the memory above 2GB.  There u go u now have an awesome huge RAM: that doesn't steal ANY memory away from all your old progs!  Many ppl have patched RAM: before so I am 100% certain that they can patch the AllocMem() calls too!  You can see them when u disassemble the code. :hammer:

2. Or another way would be to use one of those virtual memory programs with your favoriite old proggy.  But instead of redirecting RAM accessess to a hard drive it can redirect the ram accesses to ... moar ram! Yeah! :idea:

And if we combine these ideas with the different BANKS of 4GB that we have then we can totally make use of 32GB.  AmigaClassicRule can watch his HAM8 Family Guy episodes straight from memory in uncompressed format.  etc. etc.

32GB Amiga FTW! :banana:
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2012, 04:50:20 AM »
Quote from: motrucker;716517
I can't believe this thread! Sounds like you all only use your Amigas for playing games. No one works with graphics any more?


Hey Motrucker,
There are guys in Team Chaos and other guys in Natami Team who use their Amigas for hardcore gfx work in ImageFX, Photogenics and others.  They need as much ram as they can get.  They can always work in higher resolutions, add more layers, make more animation frames, etc. etc.

So you are not alone. :)
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2012, 05:20:10 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716510
Actually Motorola 680x0 addresses 32GB.  There are 8 banks of 4GB in hardware since day one.*

What you meant is just that they can only directly address 4GB.  But they can indirectly address 32GB.

* The 32GB of RAM limitation is a secret known only to us hardcore asm c0derz and hardcore hardware deziners.  shhh don't tell anybody.
Mind elaborating on this? Because the '020 certainly doesn't have any address lines after A31 on the pinouts I've found, and I can't find a datasheet for the 68851 MMU to verify whether it has any such capability.

Quote
But if you mean "Why is Jens not putting more ram on his brand new accelerators" then I have no idea.
It's largely irrelevant anyway; how many people are going to buy a new accelerator just for the purpose of having more RAM, simply to run a single game, when they could simply buy an NG Amigoid system?

Quote from: ChaosLord;716516
Nope.  That is why you buy a 68040 or 68060.

I reward ppl who support the Amiga with purchases of 040 and 060 by giving them something that makes use of it.
That's your call, but you must realize that you are impacting your potential audience with an attitude like that.

Quote from: ChaosLord;716519
They are basically just like the old Allocmem()  without wasting the sign bit the way Allocmem does.
Oy, did they decide to use "unused" high-order bits for flags, too? It was bad enough when the Mac Team did that... :angry:
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline AmigaClassicRule

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2012, 05:29:13 AM »
Quote from: motrucker;716517
I can't believe this thread! Sounds like you all only use your Amigas for playing games. No one works with graphics any more?

And Amiga's classic hardware valued for serious business? For education? For running servers? For used in government servers to maintain valuable secret data that is worth billions?

Uh....duh....of course it is only for games. When you stick C= there as an addition to it's record history and WHY at least *I* own it, I am surprised you call it computer in the first place and not a console?

Actually, I call mine a console regardless of your attempt to convince me otherwise, hehe.

As graphics wise I believe we go through the route of Macintosh!!!

So BRING OUT THE GAMES BABY FOR the Amiga!!!

I know Chaos Lord will love me for saying this, but, lately most of the time I spend playing on my A1200 is Total Chaos. I tend to play it for hours usually, because it is not registered, I tend to turn off the monitor and keep my A1200 on for days until I finish it. Of course when my Amiga 1200 decides to crash on me and I bit my nails from frustration that is when I turn her off.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 05:39:42 AM by AmigaClassicRule »
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2012, 06:03:32 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;716481
Well, for starters, the better game artists actually understand the constraints of digital art and are willing to work within them. (Take a look at Adrian Carmack's magnificent models for DOOM sometime, and compare them with the little sprites that were the end result. Sure, the models are nicer, but the DOOM team did an amazing job of capturing the details in images only a hundred-plus pixels tall.) If, on the other hand, you're stuck with prima donnas like the ones you're describing, you can always have someone else do the job of adapting it to the target platform, for the sake of team harmony.

According to TPB the small version of Doom 3 for PC is 1400 MB

The BFG version of Doom 3 for the PS3 game console is 3440 MB

You criticize Total Chaos AGA for having a 100MB archive when PS3 version is the size of 34 Total Chaos archives.

Your argument has failed. :roflmao:

Quote

But seriously, the more you crank up the requirements, the smaller your potential target audience gets. Sure, I have a 50MHz 030 and 32MB RAM, but how many people don't? Very few people who've just pulled their old Amiga out of the attic to play with are going to be able to run a game that requires 32MB RAM, and are they willing to hunt down a couple hundred bucks' worth of accelerator just for that?

I know at least one person who bought an Amiga specifically to play Total Chaos.

And a ton of ppl who don't know what an Amiga is were forced to install WinUAE so they could play the game.  Even Atari ST users. :eek:

This forced them to confront the fact that AmigaOS is awesome. (many of them use AmikitOS as their very first experience of Amiga)

Ppl who have a 3Ghz PC with 1TB of free hd space (and the ability to buy as many more TB of HD space as they like) simply don't care about the package size.

They download a 145MB basic version of AmikitOS without complaining (with amikit addons its 345MB), just to play a tiny little 100MB game.  Mac basic version of Amikit is 380MB.  


Quote

And as Thorham says, package size has very little to do with the quality of a game.

If you really believe that then why all the criticism about Total Chaos package size?  It isn't even the biggest game on Aminet.  And it is sooooooooooooooo tiny compared to PS3, Xbox 360 and PC games of 1995 to 2012.

I don't remember you criticizing any of the Aminet games that are bigger than Total Chaos.  Is it because they deserve the 100MB and we don't?
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline commodorejohn

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2012, 06:27:04 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;716526
According to TPB the small version of Doom 3 for PC is 1400 MB

The BFG version of Doom 3 for the PS3 game console is 3440 MB

You criticize Total Chaos AGA for having a 100MB archive when PS3 version is the size of 34 Total Chaos archives.

Your argument has failed.
No it hasn't. I was talking about real DOOM, not Monsters Jumping Out Of Closets In Unlit Boiler Rooms 2004 Edition. The real DOOM is about 10MB, a tenth of TC-AGA's size and every inch a classic.

Quote
Ppl who have a 3Ghz PC with 1TB of free hd space (and the ability to buy as many more TB of HD space as they like) simply don't care about the package size.
I'm sure they don't - but people who want to play it on a real Amiga do.

Quote
I don't remember you criticizing any of the Aminet games that are bigger than Total Chaos.  Is it because they deserve the 100MB and we don't?
No, it's because nobody was talking about oversized games at all until you brought up TC-AGA.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/MT-32/D-10, Oberheim Matrix-6, Yamaha DX7/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini, Ensoniq Mirage/SQ-80, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600, Hohner String Performer

"\'Legacy code\' often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling." - Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Offline ChaosLord

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2012, 06:39:46 AM »
@AmigaClassicRule
If you find any bugs in Total Chaos then please tell me about it.

But if your Amiga crashes while playing TotalChaos and running Ibrowse or WookieChat or Amirc then I don't actually want to know about it :)  When I run those softwares for 3 days straight on a clean Amiga (no TC) I always crash.  Unless I run TLSFmem then I can make it for 5 days.

What I am saying is if your Amiga crashes and you really think it was the fault of Total Chaos then I really need to know because I take bugs seriously.  Die bugs die! :flame:

There is only 1 bug in the game right now that I know of and it only happens if you use SFS.  It allegedly does not affect PFS3 or FFS.  We have a patch that fixes the problem and I will send it to you.  Do you use SFS?

I hope you enjoy the game and don't worry about how small it is or how big it is :)
Wanna try a wonderfull strategy game with lots of handdrawn anims,
Magic Spells and Monsters, Incredible playability and lastability,
English speech, etc. Total Chaos AGA
 

Offline Methuselas

Re: Is there any real use for 128MB on classic Amiga?
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2012, 06:52:53 AM »
Being a graphic artist, myself, I have to admit having more ram does  help. Granted, now I do as little graphic work on my Amiga or Emulated  Amiga, as possible (I am spoiled), but more ram does help. For example, a  640x400 png file I did in photoshop for Backbone blocks crashed on an  Emulated 1200 with 4MB of expansion ram, when trying to convert it to an  IFF in Personal Paint 7.1 I remember how agonizing it was to work in  Lightwave 5, on my A500 with 4.5 megs of ram.
\'Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation.\' - Bruce Lee

\'No, sorry. I don\'t get my tits out. They\'re not actually real, you know? Just two halves of a grapefruit...\' - Miki Berenyi

\'Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.\' - Dark Helmet :roflmao:

\'And for future reference, it might be polite to ask someone if you can  quote them in your signature, rather than just citing them to make a  sales pitch.\' - Karlos. :rtfm: (I didn\'t ask, obviously......) :lol: