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AuthorTopic: PS3 security is "epic fail"  (Read 14094 times)

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Offline Iggy

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2010, 03:49:41 PM »
Quote from: dentunes;602826
I know exactly what you mean. It is an interesting place. i think something will give before it gets that bad though. We'll probably be due for a World War by then anyways.

Thanks, I thought my constant rumination on the global economic slump, the constant attack on personal freedoms and civil liberties, global military tension, and the  potential negative consequences of technology might be just depression.
But I keep hearing sane rational people telling me that their worried that while things are bad, that they could get REALLY bad. Anyway what can you do?

So, to go right back to topic, a MorphOS PS3? Yeah!
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Offline nicholas

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2010, 04:03:25 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;602837
Great...so now they will just update the system and make it as shit as the Xbox 360 BIOS/firmware you are forced to use to make sure nobody can have any fun at all :)


I guess you didn't RTFA.

We now have Sony's private keys that they use to sign the games you buy in the shops.

We can now sign our own homebrew demos/games/OS's using their keys and run them on unmodified PS3's as if they were signed by Sony.

No firmware update can do anything to stop this without rendering all previously released titles unusable.
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Offline A1260

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2010, 04:54:19 PM »
after what i understood the ps3 is so hacked now that if sony are going to fix anything. they must start all over again and release a new consol... that will not happen. looks like some serious hack this one...
 

Offline jj

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2010, 05:15:43 PM »
Its NOT a HACK as earlier poster said,  the software will be exactly the same as sony had released it.  No alterations or tricks or anything needed.
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Offline ToddH

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 05:22:12 PM »
As a PS3 owner, I think this is great news. Not because I want to play pirated copies of new games but because it opens up a new world for home brew apps. I wouldn't mind seeing something like XBMC or AROS (or MorphOS/OS4) ported. Gonna be interesting to see what programmers come up with.
 

Offline billt

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2010, 07:04:26 PM »
Quote from: ToddH;602889
As a PS3 owner, I think this is great news. Not because I want to play pirated copies of new games but because it opens up a new world for home brew apps. I wouldn't mind seeing something like XBMC or AROS (or MorphOS/OS4) ported. Gonna be interesting to see what programmers come up with.

Here's a 45 minutes talk about how they went about things
http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/29/hackers-obtain-ps3-private-cryptography-key-due-to-epic-programm/


I look forward to being able to load a PS2 emulator so I don't have to have both machines hooked up. I have a PS3 slim, so they'd long since removed that feature.

Even if Hyperion would like to, I don't expect to see OS4 released for PS3 via this hack, as it exposes them to legal onslaught from Sony, which is a fight they likely do not want to go through.
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Offline olsen

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2010, 07:35:06 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;602778
Are we sure Sony can't find a defense for this?


That depends upon how brittle their security framework is. If the keys to the kingdom are really what the security system is all about, then the design is very poor indeed. Any sufficiently mature design, intended to remain operational for at least a decade, would include a protocol for revoking and replacing keys and cryptographic algorithms.

If I remember correctly, the Blu-Ray system is prepared to be upgraded if the keys which enable it to work should be compromised. As the design came out of Sony, just like the PS3, I expect that the PS3 has the same kind of layered security defense.

But that does't have to mean that the design actually has to work. Let's say a key is compromised: how do you safely revoke and replace it? I remember reading about the Blu-Ray security system, and how difficult it would be to revoke a key and replace it. Since not all Blu-Ray devices are connected to the Internet, and some may require manual intervention for updating them, it may not be realistic to revoke and replace the keys without rendering existing discs unplayable. That would be an extremely unpleasant outcome for consumers.

This could get really ugly.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2010, 07:39:54 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;602858
I guess you didn't RTFA.

We now have Sony's private keys that they use to sign the games you buy in the shops.

We can now sign our own homebrew demos/games/OS's using their keys and run them on unmodified PS3's as if they were signed by Sony.
Actually they haven't yet dug out these particular keys (keys used to sign games). What they have dug out are the keys used to sign executables. See [youtube]hcbaeKA2moE[/youtube]

As the presentations points out while the keys to sign actual Bluray games discs are not yet dug out, it's just a matter of time (and effort).

Quote
No firmware update can do anything to stop this without rendering all previously released titles unusable.
Firmware updates are to be expected but since there are ways to downgrade it won't be a problem, at least from homebrew point of view. However, it becomes a problem if you want to pirate games: New games will require a new, bugfixed firmware to run.

I predict emulation of new firmwares in the future, similar to that can be seen with PSP: The emulator will run on top of the hacked system, appearing as the latest unhacked system to the game, making it perfectly happy to run.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2010, 07:45:11 PM »
Quote from: olsen;602913
Any sufficiently mature design, intended to remain operational for at least a decade, would include a protocol for revoking and replacing keys and cryptographic algorithms.

If I remember correctly, the Blu-Ray system is prepared to be upgraded if the keys which enable it to work should be compromised. As the design came out of Sony, just like the PS3, I expect that the PS3 has the same kind of layered security defense.

If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2010, 07:46:56 PM »
Quote from: olsen;602913
Any sufficiently mature design, intended to remain operational for at least a decade, would include a protocol for revoking and replacing keys and cryptographic algorithms.

If I remember correctly, the Blu-Ray system is prepared to be upgraded if the keys which enable it to work should be compromised. As the design came out of Sony, just like the PS3, I expect that the PS3 has the same kind of layered security defense.

If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust. Also, there's a reliable way to downgrade from whatever update Sony might come up with. In short: Sony is screwed.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2010, 07:51:56 PM »
Quote from: JJ;602883
Its NOT a HACK as earlier poster said,  the software will be exactly the same as sony had released it.  No alterations or tricks or anything needed.
Actually currently you need to hack the PS3 with the USB dongle. This will change once the disc keys (and any other keys that might be needed) have been recovered. Later on this should change, however.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 07:54:41 PM by Piru »
 

Offline Iggy

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2010, 07:57:58 PM »
Quote from: Piru;602920
Actually currently you need to hack the PS3 with the USB dongle. This will change once the disc keys (and any other keys that might be needed) have been recovered. Later on this should change, however.



Thanks for the clarification, Piru. I don't want hacked software, but a $299 MorphOS console would be nice. How hard is it going to be to figure out the undocumented hardware that has previously been hidden by the hypervisor?
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Offline olsen

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2010, 07:58:52 PM »
Quote from: Piru;602918
If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust. Also, there's a reliable way to downgrade from whatever update Sony might come up with. In short: Sony is screwed.


Yes, you are correct. I just watched the last 15 minutes of the presentation, and this looks as bad as it gets. The Sony designers certainly ticked all the right boxes and threw the right algorithms at the task (anybody not using ECC and AES these days?), but what did them in was likely a trivial programming error in the code that was supposed to supply proper crytographic random numbers to the ECC implementation.

Makes you wonder whether the crypto was properly reviewed by a separate team, or if the same guys who wrote it also reviewed and "certified" it. My guess is that it's probably the latter. With that much at stake (Blu-Ray security, PSN security, etc.), this is exactly the kind of process you must not scrimp on. But it happens all the time, even for organizations which ought to know better.

I guess it's time to short your Sony stock, if you have it ;)
 

Offline pyrre

Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2010, 08:09:03 PM »
Quote from: Piru;602918
If you see the full presentation the situation is explained quite well. It is trivial to overwrite any revocation lists totally breaking the chain of trust. Also, there's a reliable way to downgrade from whatever update Sony might come up with. In short: Sony is screwed.
And this all happened because Sony wanted to stop Linux, and by doing so pissed off hackers. :D
Some top boss in Sony is probably taking his hat and leaving the company by now...
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Offline Piru

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Re: PS3 security is "epic fail"
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2010, 08:09:08 PM »
Quote from: olsen;602922
Yes, you are correct. I just watched the last 15 minutes of the presentation, and this looks as bad as it gets. The Sony designers certainly ticked all the right boxes and threw the right algorithms at the task (anybody not using ECC and AES these days?), but what did them in was likely a trivial programming error in the code that was supposed to supply proper crytographic random numbers to the ECC implementation.
Actually I don't believe it to be an error per se. They just failed to realize that "random number x" actually meant "new random number x every time", while elliptic curve crypto documentation is quite clear about it. This is the epic part in the fail.

Quote
Makes you wonder whether the crypto was properly reviewed by a separate team, or if the same guys who wrote it also reviewed and "certified" it. My guess is that it's probably the latter. With that much at stake (Blu-Ray security, PSN security, etc.), this is exactly the kind of process you must not scrimp on. But it happens all the time, even for organizations which ought to know better.
Indeed. Bruce Schneier summarized it pretty well: http://www.schneier.com/essay-028.html

I personally would never even imagine trying to build my own crypto. It's just too easy to fail. I'm perfectly happy to use ready to use and proven solutions such as things provided by openssl.

Here's another recent crypto failure:
HDCP 'master key' supposedly released, unlocks HDTV copy protection permanently
(well not that recent as it was predicted ages ago that the thing was broken... oh, noone listened)

And here's one somewhat older (well newer really;)) case that was really serious:
Debian OpenSSL Predictable PRNG Toys
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 08:16:54 PM by Piru »