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AuthorTopic: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned  (Read 13468 times)

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Offline Heiroglyph

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 04:14:25 AM »
I'm not sure why this isn't exciting to Real Amiga owners.

New Kickstart
Potential for CD-Rom boot
Potential replacements for all outdated OS parts
Standards for drivers
Standards for RTG
Standards for PCI access

Most importantly, developers can finally develop RTG and other drivers, bypassing the assholes in control of Picasso, Cybervision and proprietary PCI buses.  (If anyone has hurt the 68k cause, it's those guys)

And nobody can sue this project out of business, it's open source so it can live forever.

Once it is ABI compatible, this will be the biggest thing for Amiga since OS3.1!
 

Offline orb85750

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 04:46:50 AM »
Sounds good.  Does anyone have a feel for how difficult the binary compatibility part will be to achieve?  Also, how high-powered will your classic Amiga have to be in order to run AROS?
 

Offline Heiroglyph

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 05:43:30 AM »
That's yet to be seen.

There is more to Aros than OS3.1, but then most of us don't run 3.1 as it shipped either.

I'm sure it will take more RAM, but with care there is no reason it can't have similar speed.

I'm sure initially it will be slower, but that can be fixed with enough skill and time.

It's incredibly hard to make binary patches for an OS you don't have the source code for, yet people have patched many improvements into the older AmigaOS.

It's possible that with the source code readily available to more developers, Aros could even be faster than 3.1 someday.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2010, 05:57:16 AM »
Quote from: Heiroglyph;584804
I'm sure it will take more RAM, but with care there is no reason it can't have similar speed.


Once it stabilizes, one can mix and mingle, and optimize further - no reason really that it must take more RAM, really :)

Great to see this finally going somewhere.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM460 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2010, 05:59:13 AM »
Quote from: kickstart;584755
I dont see aros running under 030 and aga.


It already does in parts, you do know that there is AROS code in OS3.9, right?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM460 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2010, 06:10:36 AM »
Quote from: Franko;584781
Finally took the time to find out what on earth AROS was all about, basically to me it's just like MorphOS, WarpOS or OS4.x.


Maybe you should take the time to find out what WarpOS is also then :lol:

The point of AROS is to have an open source, portable AmigaOS clone that is "source compatible" with OS3.1. AROS running on m68k Amiga systems is supposed to be binary compatible with OS3.1. However, most of the effort till now has been on x86, since that's the most obvious system to work on, allthough thanks to people like MSchulz there's also AROS for PowerPC systems (SAMs), x86_64/AMD64 and ARM. There is also AROS for m68k since long (AfA), bits and pieces even found the way into OS3.9 (the oh so famous colourwheel, maybe more?), but the goal is to totally replace OS3.x on real m68k Amiga systems, just like the various MiNT incarnations replaced TOS on Atari.

On a side note, it would be interesting to know how far apart AROS on PowerPC is from MorphOS and OS4 in terms of binary compatibility.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 06:13:41 AM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM460 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Heiroglyph

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2010, 06:14:31 AM »
Between using C instead of assembly and having many more (sorely needed) features, I'd bet on more RAM.

Probably less RAM than 100 different third party additions, but certainly more than 3.1 used.
 

Offline vidarh

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2010, 07:09:35 AM »
Quote from: 4pLaY;584770
People need to stop thinking that what is to them "pointless" things to work on will somehow take away development from other parts of AROS! this is one guy who wanted to do this particular bounty, if he didnt work on this one, chances are he wouldn't work on anything else in AROS either, and this is true with a lot of bountys and other AROS related work. People come or join in to work on stuff they want and quite a few stop contributing to AROS once they reached they're goals whatever they may be.


Not only this, but a working, binary compatible version of AROS on real Amiga's is pretty much the holy grail for determining how compatible AROS is with real AmigaOS.

I did a bunch of work to the console.device and console handler in AROS recently, and to debug incompatibilities with AmigaOS I had to spend a lot of time getting really old AmigaOS example code compile with AROS on x86. With AROS running fine on m68k Amiga's, I could've gone straight to running Amiga apps as test cases.

Getting it running should help us fix a lot of bugs and incompatibilities that will benefit AROS as a whole
 

Offline Manu

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2010, 07:35:10 AM »
As Vidarh just said this will help polish AROS and iron out bugs so we get an even more compatible "Amiga" OS out of AROS. I can only see good things come out of this.

@vidarh
Thanks for updating the console handler, it was very much needed.
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they\\\'d go faster. --D.Haynie
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Offline Piru

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2010, 08:16:23 AM »
Quote from: kolla;584809
it would be interesting to know how far apart AROS on PowerPC is from MorphOS and OS4 in terms of binary compatibility.

Very far apart.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2010, 08:26:34 AM »
Quote from: vidarh;584812
Not only this, but a working, binary compatible version of AROS on real Amiga's is pretty much the holy grail for determining how compatible AROS is with real AmigaOS.

I did a bunch of work to the console.device and console handler in AROS recently, and to debug incompatibilities with AmigaOS I had to spend a lot of time getting really old AmigaOS example code compile with AROS on x86. With AROS running fine on m68k Amiga's, I could've gone straight to running Amiga apps as test cases.

Getting it running should help us fix a lot of bugs and incompatibilities that will benefit AROS as a whole
Indeed. MorphOS started with creating a static 68k emulation and running the original KS ROM. Then each module were replaced one by one with PowerPC native versions. This allowed us to run original 68k apps and identify and fix bugs and incompatibilities instantly. This is something AROS hasn't been able to do before (except in limited fashion thru AfA).

There's no question that AROS has thousands of issues that never have been fixed before. Hopefully the author won't get too frustrated.

To help avoid the frustration I'd recommend using the same method MorphOS used: Take original KS ROM and replace components one at a time. This will help debugging a lot. You can easily switch between original and replacement modules to see where some issue might originate. Eventually you wil be able to get rid of the original KS ROM completely and run on your own.
 

Offline Darrin

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Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2010, 10:34:01 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;584791
And to take advantage of a system that is being still developed, and has some neat modern features that AmigaOS for classics never had.


Which sounds great, as long as existing software runs on it and does n't take one look at the "new" OS and replacement ROM and decide to Guru.

If it does then stick to OS3.x and make OS3.x versions of any new AROS apps.
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Offline Hattig

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2010, 11:21:04 AM »
Quote from: mingle;584767
Hmm... I don't wish to appear to be too negative, but what advantage would you get from running AROS on a 'classic' Amiga, over WB3.1?

Wouldn't it be better to concentrate more effort to improving AROS drivers and compatibility with x86 systems?

Just wondering...


Minimig, FPGAArcade and Natami immediately come to mind.

Also the changes to make it more Amiga compatible can surely only benefit the project as a whole, making it more Amiga-like ultimately.

I don't know what a monochrome Aros will look like for the OCS driver! I think someone needs to get cracking on a monochrome theme for AROS Zune.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2010, 12:21:50 PM »
Quote from: Piru;584817
Very far apart.


Compatibility with MorphOS and/or OS4 binaries on PPC AROS would be the holy grail I imagine. :)
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Offline vidarh

Re: Kickstart ROM Replacement (Phase I) Bounty Assigned
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2010, 12:42:44 PM »
Quote from: Manu;584813

@vidarh
Thanks for updating the console handler, it was very much needed.


Thanks. I was desperate :D There's still lots to do there, though - I'm hoping to get some time to do more with it later. Work + ironing out bugs in the AROS FrexxEd port is holding me up at the moment.