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AuthorTopic: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes  (Read 10283 times)

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Offline the_leander

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2010, 05:21:25 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;587701
yes Alan,
I'm with you on this one. Its a neat low power system with almost everything you need in a really small form.
What about expansion? The set up documentation shows the system connected to a host (primarily for storage). Is there any way to connect a drive controller to this board. I'm not sure I want to be limited to USB or complact flash for storage.


Unless you're doing ridiculous amounts of very HD intensive work (for instance, using this as a database system), USB should be fine in terms of performance.

Or you could hook it upto a gigabit lan and use a NAS. Either should provide reasonable performance.
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline the_leander

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2010, 05:27:06 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;587923
Most people said this about the Amiga 3000 by the time it was new.


Citation needed.

Quote from: lsmart;587923

 Or look at apples prices in the 90s.


Hell if we're going down this nonsense road, why not compare it to Multics capable systems from the 60's, compared to them, the X1000 is an absolute bargain!
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline ChrisH

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2010, 06:53:09 PM »
Quote from: persia;587710
I would love a tiny aOS 4 system...  But it doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly.

Strange then that the Mini-ITX Sam440 runs AmigaOS4...  (And I found a lovely little case to put the motherboard in.  Note that the case on the left is still small by PC standards, but the one on the right is ridiculously small.)
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
 

Offline the_leander

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2010, 08:26:37 PM »
Quote from: ChrisH;587976
Strange then that the Mini-ITX Sam440...


That isn't in production or stock anywhere and hasn't been for how long?

Also wasn't that the one that had some severe issues with regard picture quality?
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2010, 08:44:38 PM »
Congradulations on the house Zylesea!
Points made on PPCs are valid, but we don't have anyone producing boards like that.
And I don't think they'd be really undeer powered when compared to Acube boards (which use low powered Applied Micro processors and are a bit underpowered and over priced).

But Alans points on the adavantages of ARM processors  brings home some interesting points Since ARM processor are being sold in such high volumes (for consumer devices) they're at a nice low price. And, originally these processors were designed for PCs. While many of their current applications aren't in traditional computers, the devices they are used in have many functional similarities to PC.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline the_leander

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2010, 08:48:40 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;587816
I've spent more time than I should have researching the PandaBoard.

Since the board is designed as developers system its got a few rough edges.

Use of full memory increases the chance of crashes.


Have they worked out if this is a Linux issue or a hardware fault?

Quote from: Iggy;587816

There are several other causes for boot crashes and run time crashes (like network initialization on boot).


Hmm, firmware issues for boot crashes?

Quote from: Iggy;587816

The DVI outputs aren't enabled unit (nor is the LCD output).


What, by default or is it physically not capable of doing so?

Quote from: Iggy;587816

Sound files and HD video still may experience some stuttering.


Codec/driver/scheduling conflicts within the kernel. Given similar issues being noted with other similarly powerful hardware I'd be inclined to look at drivers being the culprit with HD video/sound issues.

Quote from: Iggy;587816

I haven't checked on how open the PowerVR GPU is to development.


There is apparently a public SDK.

Quote from: Iggy;587816

I haven't seen anyone use the expansion bus yet.

Still, it does look neat.


What does the expansion bus offer that isn't onboard?
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2010, 09:14:02 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;587923
Most people said this about the Amiga 3000 by the time it was new. Or look at apples prices in the 90s. But wait for the machine to arrive first, then we will see how powerful or cool it really is.

No, I remember quite clearly when the A3000 was released and it wasn't so overpriced or underpowered as the X1000.  It was comparable in price and performance to 68030 based Macs, even a bit more capable actually.  Compare the hardware specs of the X1000 to any available platform out there and you'll see that it's about 5 years behind.

As for waiting for the X1000 to arrive, I think you have a lot more waiting ahead of you.  A-Eon has already missed their summer release deadline.  After what I saw at AmiWest, or rather didn't see, I'm sure they'll miss this Fall/Winter deadline as well.  The X1000 is just another failed hardware fiasco and is so similar to what Adam Kowalczyk of ACK Software Controls was cooking up in 2007, that I'm starting to think that the X1000 is just the same project in a different wrapper ala 2010.  I doubt the X1000 will ever see the light of day.  But at least Adam's pricing was reasonable!  It's "funny" that Adam could offer hardware at similiar specs to the X1000 in 2007 for half of what A-Eon wants in 2010.  See:  http://www.osnews.com/story/17866
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:16:32 PM by ferrellsl »
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2010, 09:20:13 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;588014
Have they worked out if this is a Linux issue or a hardware fault?

Hard to say, right now they're just suggesting limiting memory use.

Quote
Hmm, firmware issues for boot crashes?

Again, currently the network initialization problem's cause is unknown. But they did list some potential work arounds so they probaly have a clue.

Quote
What, by default or is it physically not capable of doing so?


DVI and LCD just haven't been enabled yet.

Quote
Codec]/driver/scheduling conflicts within the kernel. Given similar issues being noted with other similarly powerful hardware I'd be inclined to look at drivers being the culprit with HD video/sound issues.

Definately just teething problems. I'm sure they can work this out.

Quote
There is apparently a public SDK.

That's surprising and a real bonus. After all
 ATI and Nvidia pretty much  keeps every one in the dark.

Quote
What does the expansion bus offer that isn't onboard?

Nothing except drive controllers and the possobility of future expansion. And it has an expansion bus (which appears to be similar to another board I've seen) which is certainly positive. In fact, this board is amazingly complete right down to a substainial amount of memory. That's why I'm so impressed
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:36:18 PM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline ChrisH

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2010, 04:46:10 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;588006
That isn't in production or stock anywhere and hasn't been for how long?

Irrelevant regarding the post I was answering, which said "a tiny aOS 4 system... doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly."  Not to mention that there was the MicroA1 further back in history, which was a similar size IIRC.

Quote
Also wasn't that the one that had some severe issues with regard picture quality?

What's with the negativity?  Had absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Anyway, it looks absolutely marvelous using DVI, which any half-decent LCD monitor supports.  But yes, it does look somewhat fuzzy *for some people* using a DVI-to-VGA converter (iirc ACube think this is due to the cable used).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 05:42:05 PM by ChrisH »
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
 

Offline the_leander

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2010, 05:21:41 PM »
Quote from: ChrisH;588333
Irrelevant regarding the post I was answering, which sais "a tiny aOS 4 system... doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly."  Not to mention that there was the MicroA1 further back in history, which was a similar size IIRC.


If it isn't available, that's pretty damn relevant to the discussion. Pointing out that what you're offering as alternative has some pretty funky flaws is again relevant. This in of itself wouldn't be much of a problem given that this board too has teething troubles itself. But both the Sam and especially the MA1 (Articia troubles, not to mention really crumby build quality) were sold as consumer ready systems.

Ignoring all of this though, both of your proposed alternatives both suffer from the same basic issue that the X1000 does - they don't offer much bang for your bucks.

Quote from: ChrisH;588333

What's with the negativity?


Pointing out that there were severe hardware flaws present != Negativity.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 05:24:43 PM by the_leander »
Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]
 

Offline lsmart

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2010, 09:28:41 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;588023
No, I remember quite clearly when the A3000 was released and it wasn't so overpriced or underpowered


1990: Commodore announces the Amiga 3000. Prices start at US$4100 with a monitor. (16Mhz 50MBHD 2MB RAM)

1990: 386 PC (25 MHZ 50MB HD 1MB RAM) with a monitor -> $2000

Mac pricing in the 90 was a joke, so I won´t compare that.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2010, 09:54:17 PM »
Quote from: lsmart;588393
1990: Commodore announces the Amiga 3000. Prices start at US$4100 with a monitor. (16Mhz 50MBHD 2MB RAM)

1990: 386 PC (25 MHZ 50MB HD 1MB RAM) with a monitor -> $2000

Mac pricing in the 90 was a joke, so I won´t compare that.


No, now you're comparing apples to oranges.  My point was that the Commodore A3000 compared quite favorably in price and performance to Apple 68030 Macs.  And you have to remember that back in those days, 1 MB of RAM went for several hundred dollars.  So comparing a 386SX 25Mhz, 1 MB RAM running MS-DOS with CGA graphics and 1 MB RAM isn't directly comparable in price or performance to a 68030 25Mhz, 2MB RAM, and multi-tasking OS and graphics above an beyond anything available to the x86 world.

Even when comparing like-processors such as a discontinued MAC G5 with the X1000, anyone can see that the X1000 is vastly overpriced and underpowered.  The X1000 fails to light any fires or blaze any new trails, except in the outrageously overpriced hardware department.  It's doubtful that it will even reach the market.  It's funny that Adam Kowalczyk of ACK Software Controls was developing an almost identical platform as the X1000 in 2007 at nearly half the price of an X1000.  Matter of fact, I believe that the X1000 is Adam's 2007 project in a different wrapper and a higher price.  See specs here:  http://www.osnews.com/story/17866
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2010, 12:46:31 AM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;588394
No, now you're comparing apples to oranges.  My point was that the Commodore A3000 compared quite favorably in price and performance to Apple 68030 Macs.  And you have to remember that back in those days, 1 MB of RAM went for several hundred dollars.  So comparing a 386SX 25Mhz, 1 MB RAM running MS-DOS with CGA graphics and 1 MB RAM isn't directly comparable in price or performance to a 68030 25Mhz, 2MB RAM, and multi-tasking OS and graphics above an beyond anything available to the x86 world.

Even when comparing like-processors such as a discontinued MAC G5 with the X1000, anyone can see that the X1000 is vastly overpriced and underpowered.  The X1000 fails to light any fires or blaze any new trails, except in the outrageously overpriced hardware department.  It's doubtful that it will even reach the market.  It's funny that Adam Kowalczyk of ACK Software Controls was developing an almost identical platform as the X1000 in 2007 at nearly half the price of an X1000.  Matter of fact, I believe that the X1000 is Adam's 2007 project in a different wrapper and a higher price.  See specs here:  http://www.osnews.com/story/17866


Maybe you shouldn't think so much. ACK Software Controls has nothing to do with this project. Perhaps Treavor picked that particular CPU because it appealed to him, or he thought there was some contunuity in that choice. I discussed PPC designs with the head of the firm that designed Xena for A-eon. At the time he suggested Freescale communications PPC processors (rather than PA Semi's PA6T).  
The only real mystery (beyond why they choose a dead end processor) is where A-eon is getting these processors?
And the power comparison isn't as valid as what is pointed to by your post.
The Amiga 3000 was produced for a more limited market by one company. 386 motherboards/systems were produced many manufacturers for a larger, more competive market.

I don't know why you guys expect PPC motherboards produced in comparitively TINY quantities to even come close to the prices mass marketed X86 systems.

It's not going to happen. Even if we had a market as large as Apple's, our costs would still be higher than X86 producers.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:13:49 AM by Iggy »
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2010, 01:10:17 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;588407
Maybe you shouldn't think so much. ACK Software Controls has nothing to do with this project. Perhaps Treavor picked that particular CPU because it appealed to him, or he thought there was some contunuity in that choice. I discussed PPC designs with the head of the firm that designed Xena for A-eon. At the time he suggested Freescale communications PPC processors (rather than PA Semi's PA6T).  
the only real mystery (beyond why they choose a dead end processor) is where A-eon is getting these processors?
And the power comparison isn't as valid as what is pointed to by your post.
The Amiga 3000 was procuced for a more limited market by one company. 386 motherboards/systems were produced many manufacturers for a larger, more competive market.

I don't know why you guys expect PPC motherboards produced in comparitively TINY quantities to even come close to the prices mass marketed X86 systems.

It's not going to happen. Even if we had a market as large as Apple's, our costs would still be higher than X86 producers.

My level of thought in this matter is just fine.  Maybe it's your lack of research and your lack of thought that has you believing that the X1000 is such a wonderful deal?  And I don't care if ACK has anything to do with the X1000 project or not.  But ACK was able to come up with a design similar to the X1000 three years ago at half the price!  If anyone believes that A-Eon is developing the X1000 out of the goodness of their hearts or "for the good of the community" they are gravely mistaken.

Once again, you want to keep comparing apples to oranges.  I don't care about the cost performance comparisons between a 386 and a 68030 based system from nearly 20 yrs ago.  But when someone tells me that $3500 USD for an X1000 is a good deal and the price to performance ratio is also good, I know they're full of baloney.  Just compare the X1000 to other similar hardware offerings (apples to apples) and you'll see that.  And the economies of scale argument you're using doesn't hold true either.  Low-volume development boards (the X1000 is now being "pushed" as a dev board after being critisized over its pricing) such as the Panda and the Beagle cost a fraction of the asking price of an X1000 and they're available now, not vaporware.  You must have some financial interest in A-Eon or Hyperion for you to cling so valiantly to your "belief" that the X1000 is such a fabulous deal......Believe what you want, because those of us on this forum who've put a great deal of thought and research into the X1000 aren't buying it, pun intended!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:25:48 AM by ferrellsl »
 

Offline Tripitaka

Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2010, 01:50:57 AM »
Quote from: Fransexy_;587722
RiscOS 5 also run on Touch Book



The specifications

    * 9.7" x 7" x 1.3" for around 3 lbs (with keyboard)
    * ARM Texas Instruments OMAP3 chip
    * 1024x600 8.9" Multitouch screen
    * Video output HDMI 720p
    * 512MB RAM - 8GB SD card for storage
    * Wifi 802.11 b/g/n and Bluetooth
    * 3-dimensional accelerometer
    * Speakers, micro and headphone I/O
    * 7 USB 2.0 (4 internal, 3 external)
    * 10 hours of battery life


http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/RISC_OS



I'm in love. I must have one. Damn you man why did you show me that, now I have to to rework my entire budget.
Falling into a dark and red rage.