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AuthorTopic: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?  (Read 4255 times)

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Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2009, 01:02:11 PM »
>by DiskDoctor on 2009/1/23 14:18:58


>@ shoggoth
>&@ amigaksi
...
>Old Amigas were excellences, though nothing divine. Sure it is theoretically possible to re-create this. But I do not think it is doable on the current PC stuff especially with all WinLinMac stars as middleware... Nowadays, like software (OS), like hardware.
...

I mostly agree but it's hard to assume it's "nothing divine" without some further evidence.

About using stand-alone boot-able Amiga that uses the hardware resources directly-- that would be a better approach.
--------
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Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2009, 01:12:03 PM »
>by Hammer on 2009/1/23 15:30:49

amigaksi wrote:
>>by DiskDoctor on 2009/1/18 9:57:56


>>Hello,

...
>>Also, some time ago I encountered some post on some other forum stating that "no one has ever managed to re-create the original chipset as a Virtual Machine because it was SO PERFECT it is hardly possible if ever."

>>>If you go by PC standard hardware, it is impossible to do the cycle-exact emulation of the Amiga. Now if you have some specialized PC hardware like a multi-channel audio card, sprite-based video card, digital joystick interface, PC w/HPET timers, etc. that are all superset of the hardware of your Amiga in every respect and have software that uses these directly (not through an API or buffered scheme), then it is possible.
(SNIP)

>To have design for Windows Vista logo on PCs, the PC must have HPET timers.

>Refer to http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb931844.aspx

Someone declaring a standard is different from being a standard (in reality).  I can declare the new timing standard for Amigas is 28.6363Mhz not 3.579545Mhz but that does not mean everyone has it.  By standard PC hardware, I mean you go to almost anyone's home and they have that hardware.  The 1.19Mhz timer is there in every PC.

I can offer some upgrade h/w that uses the 28.6363Mhz crystal on the Amiga MB and uses it to increment some register but it's specialized hardware.  Perhaps, I can get Microsoft to declare it an Amiga standard.
--------
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Offline shoggoth

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2009, 02:08:25 PM »
Quote
Quote

>... based on facts about hardware - but not based on how emulators actually work. You've *assumed* that they work in a certain way using timers - which they generally don't (because it would be completely retarded to do it that way).


Again that's your flawed idea.  You can make the emulators cycle-exact if you had an interrupt of 1/7.16Mhz accuracy and did everything cycle at a time instead of frame at a time which is only makes it "visually" appear the same except for the VBI not being in sync with WM_TIMER difference.


The term "cycle accurate" doesn't dictate the actual cycle duration. I've never claimed it did. What it means is that the state each subsystem is accurate on the cycle level - which have *nothing* to do with real time.

You're talking about timing. I'm talking about synchronization at the cycle level. That's not the same thing at all. You've got the definition for cycle accurate wrong, clearly.
 
Quote

>Drop timers. You don't use timers to achieve accurate emulation. That's *in* your *head*. You've chosen to compare this aspect of computers because it suits your ideas, obviously.
Quote

If your defintion of emulation means "an ATTEMPT" to mimic the target machine, yeah you can drop timers.  Otherwise, you should drop your ideas that you only need CPU speed to emulate any machine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator

Download the sources of some modern emulators and see how they work. They'll confirm my statements. Ah - oh now I remember - you didn't want to do that. You said you had nothing to gain by doing so. Right.

This is like discussing colour with a blind person. You don't know the fundamentals, yet you keep discussing them. You have your own definitions, and even though they differ greatly from that of the rest of the world you stick to them. You've seen a piece of the puzzle and somehow think that's enough to get the whole picture. I'll try to stop myself from answering any more of your posts, because you won't understand the message anyway. I think we've proved that several times now.

@bloodline
 - I get it now. Thanks.
 

Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2009, 02:38:25 PM »
>by shoggoth on 2009/1/24 9:08:25

>>Again that's your flawed idea. You can make the emulators cycle-exact if you had an interrupt of 1/7.16Mhz accuracy and did everything cycle at a time instead of frame at a time which is only makes it "visually" appear the same except for the VBI not being in sync with WM_TIMER difference.

>The term "cycle accurate" doesn't dictate the actual cycle duration. I've never claimed it did. What it means is that the state each subsystem is accurate on the cycle level - which have *nothing* to do with real time.

Okay, so both words emulator and cycle-exact are different for both of us.  I am going by emulator defintion in dictionary and cycle accurate or cycle-exact to be 1/7.16Mhz for Amiga OCS.  

>Download the sources of some modern emulators and see how they work. They'll confirm my statements. Ah - oh now I remember - you didn't want to do that. You said you had nothing to gain by doing so. Right.
...
And the reason for that is deductive.  If you can't take some application on Amiga and make it on a PC as efficiently using it's native hardware, then it can't be done using an emulator regardless of how many millions of source code lines you show me.
--------
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Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2009, 02:45:36 PM »
>by Hammer on 2009/1/23 15:48:42

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>bloodline wrote:
@amigaski

>Just for your info, the HPET is a 64bit, 10Mhz Timer...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Does AROS use HPET?

10Mhz, that's all?  I thought the spec was for 14.318Mhz or higher.  10Mhz could be problematic as Amiga is using NTSC frequencies and not being evenly divisible by them would pose a problem in this case.
--------
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Offline AmiKit

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2009, 03:19:52 PM »
@amigaksi

Quote
amigaksi said:
I was pointing out that differences exist even in cases where YOU did not perceive them.

And I accepted what you said if you did not notice. The point is somewhere else but I won't explain it to you ONCE AGAIN.



Quote
amigaksi said:
Major differences also exist depending on target hardware used by emulator and it's spec.

Sorry, but your knowledge about how emulation works was put in question here in this thread...



Quote
amigaksi said:
No, the difference is "subtle" for YOU that's why you don't notice it unless YOU are trained.

Seems you still don't get it.



Quote
amigaksi said:
I can write software where even YOU will notice a difference.
Quote
AmiKit said:
That would be interesting
Quote
amigaksi said:
Not "would be". It is already existing.
Quote
AmiKit said:
Link please?
Quote
amigaksi said:
I can post source code or an ADF to a sample code I wrote.





Yes, please. Or should I ask you for it for the fourth time?



Quote
amigaksi said:
No, I already win even if I accept you don't notice any differences since it's better to have real Amiga that works 100% for everyone than an emulator which is good for some games for some people.

Sure :roll:



Quote
AmiKit said:
"...the operational principle of the brain is holistic, parallel, and analog, with self-organizing tendencies; or, that the whole is different from the sum of its parts. The Gestalt effect refers to the form-forming capability of our senses, particularly with respect to the visual recognition of figures and whole forms instead of just a collection of simple lines and curves."

Sorry but in such a context the subtle differences between real and emulated game are simply irrelevant.
Quote
amigaksi said:
That's true but it actually supports me. Emulator is not an Amiga as a whole although some parts (like the static visual output) look the same.

You did not understand it at all.

Well, I will refrain from further discussion with you as it seems it's useless. Your capacity or will to hear and understand is too low. Bye.

Offline orb85750

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2009, 07:48:40 PM »
Quote

persia wrote:

Real Amigas are always on the edge of disaster, with cobbled together parts that were never meant to work together.  They click, they pop, they wheeze.  Experiencing an Amiga through the clean safety of a modern OS is somehow almost cheating.


Funny that you say that.  My experience has been the opposite.  I have had a number of "modern" systems die on me (probably all made in China), while my old Amigas keep running after decades.  The only exception was when I tinkered with and destroyed an Amiga myself!
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2009, 08:16:37 PM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>by Hammer on 2009/1/23 15:48:42

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>bloodline wrote:
@amigaski

>Just for your info, the HPET is a 64bit, 10Mhz Timer...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Does AROS use HPET?

10Mhz, that's all?  I thought the spec was for 14.318Mhz or higher.  10Mhz could be problematic as Amiga is using NTSC frequencies and not being evenly divisible by them would pose a problem in this case.


Every PC has always had a 1.193182Mhz timer, this is 1 third the NTSC colourburst...

But most Video cards have a VBL interrupt, and UAE allows you to sync the emulator to a real Video card VBL... I don't see how it could be any more perfect than that...

Offline amigakidd

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2009, 11:10:28 PM »
Since I don't access to a REAL AMIGA, I legally emulate
an Amiga using Amiga Forever 2008. It does the job, plus all the games I can play. I run AF2008 on an eeepc 4gb.
WinUAE enthusiast.

Curious about: Amiga OS, Morph OS, X-Amiga, Amikit, Amiga Forever, WinUAE, Efika, Minimig,
and other forms Amiga-like Computers.
 

Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2009, 10:47:09 AM »

>>10Mhz, that's all? I thought the spec was for 14.318Mhz or higher. 10Mhz could be problematic as Amiga is using NTSC frequencies and not being evenly divisible by them would pose a problem in this case.

>Every PC has always had a 1.193182Mhz timer, this is 1 third the NTSC colourburst...

>But most Video cards have a VBL interrupt, and UAE allows you to sync the emulator to a real Video card VBL... I don't see how it could be any more perfect than that...

For frame rate, it may be good approximation, but there's other things going on in the system than video running at 60Hz.  And even the video is subject to latency and phase shifts.  Sure it could be better if every cycle was a real Amiga cycle in time.

--------
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Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2009, 10:56:49 AM »
>>by AmiKit on 2009/1/24 10:19:52

@amigaksi

>>I was pointing out that differences exist even in cases where YOU did not perceive them.

>And I accepted what you said if you did not notice. The point is somewhere else but I won't explain it to you ONCE AGAIN.

Okay.

>>Major differences also exist depending on target hardware used by emulator and it's spec.

>Sorry, but your knowledge about how emulation works was put in question here in this thread...

Definition was being debated.  I also put the shape of the earth into question earlier in this thread so what's the big deal if someone is questioning.  You and many others perceive the earth as flat but what's the reality?

>Seems you still don't get it.

I get it.  You see things as a whole not parts so when the video is out of phase or has latency with respect to audio, timers, etc. you will notice it.

>>Not "would be". It is already existing.

>Link please?

>>I can post source code or an ADF to a sample code I ...

>Yes, please. Or should I ask you for it for the fourth time?

I can't find where you asked 3 times.  I currently have it as a bin file that loads at absolute location $10000 so I need to convert it to ADF so it boots up.  It works consistently on OCS, ECS, and AGA.

>"...the operational principle of the brain is holistic, parallel, and analog, with self-organizing tendencies; or, that the whole is different from the sum of its parts. The Gestalt effect refers to the form-forming capability of our senses, particularly with respect to the visual recognition of figures and whole forms instead of just a collection of simple lines and curves."

>Sorry but in such a context the subtle differences between real and emulated game are simply irrelevant.

>>That's true but it actually supports me. Emulator is not an Amiga as a whole although some parts (like the static visual output) look the same.

>You did not understand it at all.

You apply the same principle to a flat earth.  I rather have a perfectly working "whole" with audio/video/timing all exact.

>[insults deleted]
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2009, 11:12:02 AM »
WTF!!!! where have all my posts gone? How frustrating! :-x

Quote

amigaksi wrote:

>>10Mhz, that's all? I thought the spec was for 14.318Mhz or higher. 10Mhz could be problematic as Amiga is using NTSC frequencies and not being evenly divisible by them would pose a problem in this case.

>Every PC has always had a 1.193182Mhz timer, this is 1 third the NTSC colourburst...

>But most Video cards have a VBL interrupt, and UAE allows you to sync the emulator to a real Video card VBL... I don't see how it could be any more perfect than that...

For frame rate, it may be good approximation, but there's other things going on in the system than video running at 60Hz.  And even the video is subject to latency and phase shifts.  Sure it could be better if every cycle was a real Amiga cycle in time.



The human is refreshed at (on a PAL Amiga) 50 times a second... Or once every 25ms. As longs as the real Amiga and the emulator refresh the human at the same rate, there is no difference between the two systems WRT to the human. On both a real Amiga and the emulator a large chunk of time is just spent waiting for the VBI... So it doesn't matter which system waits the longest...

Offline cehofer

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Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2009, 09:56:18 PM »
I recently purchased Amiga Forever 2008 Premium.  It has totally got me back into the Amiga.  I have thrown everything at it, Octamed, Opus4, Donkey Kong, Newtek Demos, CD32 games like Morph, bubba n stix.  I have made dms images of my floppies and you can play it right there.  My hat is off to the authors that they have done an excellent job.  They only thing I haven't tried is games that do not use the AMiga OS.  I have to figure out how to make images to play them.

I run it on my AMD Quad Core under Windows XP.  I highly recommend this product.  It makes running old software so easy that wouldn't run on my native 4000.
 

Offline Damion

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2009, 10:19:59 PM »
The emulator has to be synced to the display device for accurate scrolling, this means 50/100Hz for PAL software (unless you want to run PAL software at NTSC 60Hz for most LCDs, which screws some software). Running 50Hz settings (PAL/50 fps emulator setting) at 60Hz will visually mess the scrolling. This is admittedly more noticeable with certain games than others, also not all Amiga games featured perfect scrolling anyway. Fire up a pinball game though, or SOTB3 intro, and the difference (PAL settings at 60Hz) is plainly discernible.

However - this is simply a matter of finding the right settings (and possibly an annoyance for LCD users who use UAE for gaming), not a dis on WinUAE which is obviously fantastic.

 

Offline amigaksi

Re: Amiga emulators: is it worth it?
« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2009, 07:29:21 PM »
>by -D- on 2009/1/27 17:19:59

>The emulator has to be synced to the display device for accurate scrolling, this means 50/100Hz for PAL software (unless you want to run PAL software at NTSC 60Hz for most LCDs, which screws some software). Running 50Hz settings (PAL/50 fps emulator setting) at 60Hz will visually mess the scrolling. This is admittedly more noticeable with certain games than others, also not all Amiga games featured perfect scrolling anyway. Fire up a pinball game though, or SOTB3 intro, and the difference (PAL settings at 60Hz) is plainly discernible.

>However - this is simply a matter of finding the right settings (and possibly an annoyance for LCD users who use UAE for gaming), not a dis on WinUAE which is obviously fantastic

I don't know if it's the right settings in some cases if the underlying hardware won't allow perfect synching at VBL.  And even then you have 119472 cycles in a normal field that are not cycle-exact.  That's 0.0008% cycle exactness even if you think the VBI cycle is exactly timed.
--------
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