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AuthorTopic: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?  (Read 11922 times)

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Offline Seiya

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2008, 03:30:46 AM »
to replay to first post, today Amiga is any platform able to run AmigaOS emulated or not.
AmigaOS running on emulator are the same AmigaOS running on real Amiga, and the new hardware AmigaOne and Pegasos.

In the past maybe not, but in the latest years, Amiga is re-born like a software for many hardware and for many more users.

Offline AmigaHope

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2008, 03:54:48 AM »
Quote
As long as the host can update the display faster than 50fps the display will be good. Especially since LCD displays don't actually use a refresh cycle.

The LCD panel itself does not use a refresh cycle, but the video card and how it communicates with the monitor DO.

When your video card is sending 60 frames per second to the monitor, and your emulator is putting out 50 frames per second, and assuming you're using vsync to avoid tearing artifacts, *every fifth frame will be doubled*. Scrolling will not be smooth!

That said, your particular eyes may or may not notice.

For best results, you need to use a 50Hz or 100Hz screenmode. Whether or not your monitor logic supports these properly is another issue.

This should yield FAIRLY good scrolling -- because the clock rate is not 100% identical there will still be dropped/doubled frames every so often (depending on whether the 50Hz of the monitor is clocked every-so-slightly slower or faster than Amiga 50Hz). These errors should be very infrequent (but noticeable if you have a golden eye).

I can definitely see the difference when I run an emulator at 50Hz in a display at 60Hz.
 

Offline Hammer

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2008, 08:27:18 AM »
Quote

stefcep2 wrote:
The mouse control under emulation is not the same as the real thing.  This really changes the feel and the speed and comfort with which I can select and execute things on the GUI.

Also the display of a real Amiga especially on a 1084 seems far more vibrant:  I remember 5 years ago when a PC owner friend saw some hand-drawn picture on my 1084(only pal overscan hires laced) being wowed by the colors.

I have used SVGA monitor and 1084S on my A3000 and I dislike my 1084S's dot pitch.
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Offline Hammer

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2008, 08:28:57 AM »
Quote

AmigaHope wrote:
Quote
As long as the host can update the display faster than 50fps the display will be good. Especially since LCD displays don't actually use a refresh cycle.

The LCD panel itself does not use a refresh cycle, but the video card and how it communicates with the monitor DO.

When your video card is sending 60 frames per second to the monitor, and your emulator is putting out 50 frames per second, and assuming you're using vsync to avoid tearing artifacts, *every fifth frame will be doubled*. Scrolling will not be smooth!

Cite an example.
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Offline AmigaHope

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2008, 08:40:13 AM »
An example? o.O It's simple math. o.O

Framerate pulldown happens. It's why 24fps film does not look right on an NTSC TV, and why PAL versions of films on VHS, Laserdisc, and poorly-mastered DVDs are sped up to 25fps (making the sound pitch slightly higher, the action slightly faster, and the movie slightly shorter).

It's why good modern flat-panel TVs support 24fps input on their HDMI ports (if you have HDDVD or Blu-ray make sure you enable this!) and why when you're playing movies via a VGA input you should set your refresh to 72Hz (24fps frametripled).

In the case of your Amiga emulator, your video card is sending a new image to your monitor every 60th of a second, assuming your refresh is 60Hz. There is no way for it to space 50 frames evenly apart across 60 frames that are spread evenly apart. The smoothest you can get is by sending every fifth frame twice (50/60 with all common factors divided out, yields a lowest term of 5/6).

In other words, only every sixth frame will be displayed at the accurate moment, the following five frames will consist of a repeated frame, followed by four delayed frames (with progressively decreasing delay, until the sixth frame which will again be properly synchronized).
 

Offline motorollin

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2008, 10:33:01 AM »
I'm coming in late on this one, replying to the original topic.

"Better" is subjective. Nobody can say which is "better" since it totally depends on what you actually want to do. If you want to run high-end Amiga software and don't care how you do it, then emulation is better: it will be faster and cheaper than buying real Amiga hardware. If (like me) you like your Amiga experience to feel more authentic and don't care about running Amiga apps at the fastest speed you possibly can, then hardware is better. But some would disagree here: even people who just like playing Amiga games, and therefore don't *need* the speed advantages of emulation, will find UAE more convenient and reliable than a real Amiga.

So I repeat: "better" is subjective. Only you know what is better for your needs.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline foleyjo

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2008, 10:46:54 AM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
So I repeat: "better" is subjective. Only you know what is better for your needs.



Most intelligent thing said in this thread.

People are comparing speeds, sound quality, graphic quality etc but to be honest even if there was an undisputable 100% accurate Amiga emulator for PC some people will still prefer using a real Amiga just because they like to have a real amiga.

Im a bit of a collector so Ill always take the real thing over emulation.
Imagine if a stamp collector instead of getting stamps just got photos of stamps
 

Offline actung_bab

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2008, 11:50:16 AM »
Quote

a-pex wrote:
Give emulation no chance!

Real men plays with real hardware, or are you also emulating your girl friend.  :crazy:
l chouldint resist maybe l should have hehe
l though porn was g/f emulation hehe well rymes with aghh no wont say that hehe
know l finallyhave g/f the hardware is much  better.

Give emulation no chance!
:-)
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what can i say i like thse machines
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Offline Hammer

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2008, 01:20:00 PM »
Quote

AmigaHope wrote:
An example? o.O It's simple math. o.O

I was referring to a Classic Amiga PAL demo with smooth scrolling.

Super frog game is smooth on my ASUS G1S laptop (via WinUAE).

Quote

It's why good modern flat-panel TVs support 24fps input on their HDMI ports (if you have HDDVD or Blu-ray make sure you enable this!) and why when you're playing movies via a VGA input you should set your refresh to 72Hz (24fps frametripled).

Are you claiming jerky frame rates while playing back 24FPS on 60hz LCD with PureVideo HD or Avivo HD video processor?

NVIDIA PureVideo HD (Geforce 8)covers the following(quoting nVIDIA)...

Inverse Telecine (3:2 & 2:2 Pulldown Correction):
Recovers original film images from films-converted-to-video, providing more accurate movie playback and superior picture quality.

Bad Edit Correction:
When videos are edited after they have been converted from 24 to 25 or 30 frames, the edits can disrupt the normal 3:2 or 2:2 pulldown cadence. PureVideo uses advanced processing techniques to detect poor edits, recover the original content, and display perfect picture detail frame after frame for smooth, natural looking video.

Advanced Spatial-Temporal De-Interlacing:
Sharpens HD and standard definition interlaced content on progressive displays, delivering a crisp, clear picture that rivals high-end home theater systems.
(vector adaptive deinterlacing)

Other nVidia statement on Advanced Spatial-Temporal De-Interlacing;
"Smoothes video and DVD playback on progressive displays to deliver a crisp, clear picture that rivals high-end home theater systems.

Quote

In the case of your Amiga emulator, your video card is sending a new image to your monitor every 60th of a second, assuming your refresh is 60Hz. There is no way for it to space 50 frames evenly apart across 60 frames that are spread evenly apart. The smoothest you can get is by sending every fifth frame twice (50/60 with all common factors divided out, yields a lowest term of 5/6).

Run the emulated Amiga in NTSC mode.
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Offline arkpandora

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2008, 03:46:00 PM »
To my knowledge AmigaHope is making an accurate description of the animation problem, and will soon receive some insults from rough specimen Bloodline.

@Hammer

Quote
Are you claiming jerky frame rates while playing back 24FPS on 60hz LCD with PureVideo HD or Avivo HD video processor?


The frame rate would not be accurate, but animation would not be jerky either since there's no moving 2D object, except in special circumstances such as a smooth credits scrolling (but if they are common in TV shows I can't remember seeing any in films).  In emulators however you will get jerky animation on moving 2D objects or scrollings.
 

Offline AmigaHope

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2008, 12:49:59 AM »
Quote
I was referring to a Classic Amiga PAL demo with smooth scrolling.

Super frog game is smooth on my ASUS G1S laptop (via WinUAE).
You might not be able to see the jerkiness -- different people have different tolerances for it. If you actually took video of your screen with a high speed camera and played it back slowly, you'd see the jerkiness. It really is happening.

An A/B comparison between a properly synced display and one that isn't would show the difference well -- you could probably see it then.

Quote
Are you claiming jerky frame rates while playing back 24FPS on 60hz LCD with PureVideo HD or Avivo HD video processor?

NVIDIA PureVideo HD (Geforce 8)covers the following(quoting nVIDIA)...
All of those features you're listing focus on *recovering the original frames* of the film. All of the features listed are basically motion-detection techniques to try to reconstruct the original frames from the fragments generated by various telecine conversions (including reconversion to progressive).

All this does though is recover the original frame! Once you have your nice original frames, it *still* has to perform a framerate conversion, which still leads to jerkiness unless the source frame rate can be evenly divided into the target framerate.

It *does* reduce jerkiness in the sense that it removes any jerkiness caused in the mastering of the source materal. The reconstructed video data that results is in fact not jerky. When you actually *DISPLAY* it though you're introducing jerkiness in your final pulldown conversion. It's just better than the much-worse jerkiness you'd get from cascaded pulldown conversions.

It can't magically make 24fps or 50fps fit into a 60fps framerate smoothly.

Quote
Run the emulated Amiga in NTSC mode.
This actually works. There will still be the occasional glitch due to very slight differences in framerate (unless you can 100% accurately synchronize the mode -- this is hard to do unless your emulator has direct access to the timing controls of the video drivers), but it will mostly look great.

The only problem is that tons of software on the Amiga is carefully timed to run synchronized with a 50Hz display, and simply won't play or sound right when run in NTSC mode.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2008, 01:24:44 PM »
Quote

AmigaHope wrote:

It can't magically make 24fps or 50fps fit into a 60fps framerate smoothly.



http://www.troubled-mind.com/output.mp4

and...?

Offline monami

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2008, 03:26:45 PM »
"rough specimen Bloodline."

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2008, 03:57:41 PM »
Quote

monami wrote:
"rough specimen Bloodline."

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


Of all the things I've been called, that is actually one of the nicest :-)

Offline Nautilus

Re: Easiness
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2008, 05:32:01 PM »
Emulation is cool, but without the "real thing" there is not that feeling of refreshing tranquility and an absence of tension or worry when you turn on the computer. There is nothing like using a real Amiga1200 or a real MSX2.