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AuthorTopic: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?  (Read 11921 times)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2008, 12:01:31 AM »
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arkpandora wrote:
@Krusher

OK, I will remember.


@bloodline

This kind of unnecessary rude talk is a common problem in forums.  I know my hypotheses are clumsy, but I have absolutely no technical knowledge on the subject, so advices are more welcome than insults.  What makes you think that I am stuck 18 years in the past ?


My abruptness stems from my irritation with people spreading FUD.

As long as the host can update the display faster than 50fps the display will be good. Especially since LCD displays don't actually use a refresh cycle.

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My aim is precisely to replace my real Amiga by an emulator, at least on my desk as I'm lacking space.  To this end, a few years ago I tested several emulators on various PCs and various monitors including TVs, tried a few software hacks, without success as far as animation was concerned.

Now my main computer is a 2007 Apple Mac Mini, and I still haven't managed to obtain normal animation in UAE.  I am willing to buy a PC again if this is the only solution, but since my finances are not in a good shape, I am still gathering feedback.

Anyway you are using a Mac, so if I am ignorant, then please explain me how these issues have been solved and how you manage to obtain normal animation on your Mac.


Go here: http://e-uae.de.vu/

And in the configuration make sure you set the OpenGL rendering on (If you write your own configs: sdl.use_gl=true )... I expect you need the latest SDL framework installed for this.

Tweak the settings to suit your needs best.

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2008, 12:05:06 AM »
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Krusher wrote:
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bloodline wrote:
... Get some new hardware and enjoy yourself...


I'm running WinUAE on a single core Intel Centrino laptop running at 1.6Ghz, hardly new or state of the art (heh, a familiar name amongst Amigans  :lol: ) hardware but it does the job.


Not really state of the art at all... but if my old 1.5Ghz G4 can run UAE fine... then a 1.6Ghz Core Solo will have no problems at all.

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Does E-UAE have the floppy sound in it? Just curious as I don't have a Mac.


No, WinUAE is quite a bit better than E-UAE... but E-UAE is still pretty good.

I have BootCamp on my Mac, so I do have WinUAE installed, but E-UAE is good enough.

Offline arkpandora

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2008, 12:15:55 AM »
@bloodline

Well, thanks, when I find the time I will make sure I do everything right.  If it works this is good news for me...


@Krusher

...and I would not have to buy any PC.  I still haven't considered the Minimig yet.
 

Offline Krusher

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2008, 12:17:36 AM »
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bloodline wrote:
Quote

Krusher wrote:
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bloodline wrote:
...
Not really state of the art at all... but if my old 1.5Ghz G4 can run UAE fine... then a 1.6Ghz Core Solo will have no problems at all.


Heck, I even remember my old AMD @ 1Ghz running WinUAE just fine. With a lot less memory then my laptop :-P

Quote

Does E-UAE have the floppy sound in it? Just curious as I don't have a Mac.


No, WinUAE is quite a bit better than E-UAE... but E-UAE is still pretty good...


I remember the moment the floppy sound was build in, I was like OMG this is the icing on the cake! Too bad that sound output is just not the same (DAC filters and whatnot aren't the same as on the Amiga, and I guess it's too much horsepower to do some trickery to make it sound the same)
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2008, 12:22:47 AM »
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Krusher wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

Krusher wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...
Not really state of the art at all... but if my old 1.5Ghz G4 can run UAE fine... then a 1.6Ghz Core Solo will have no problems at all.


Heck, I even remember my old AMD @ 1Ghz running WinUAE just fine. With a lot less memory then my laptop :-P

Quote

Does E-UAE have the floppy sound in it? Just curious as I don't have a Mac.


No, WinUAE is quite a bit better than E-UAE... but E-UAE is still pretty good...


I remember the moment the floppy sound was build in, I was like OMG this is the icing on the cake! Too bad that sound output is just not the same (DAC filters and whatnot aren't the same as on the Amiga, and I guess it's too much horsepower to do some trickery to make it sound the same)


No, not really, it would take only a simple lookup table rather than the shifting* currently used. I the NetAmi thread I posted the theory how to achive this. I also have the look up table here. I don't have time to play with the UAE source code, but I have offered it to the UAE devs if they want to implement it.

I doubt anyone would really notice the difference though, while the Paula DACs are not linear they are not really that far off... :-)

*-Edit- while a Lookup table requires a memory access and a shift doesn't, it's obviously going to be a bit slower, but since the Lookup table is only 256bytes it should fit comfortably into a x86 CPU cache and thus be pretty fast!

Offline Krusher

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2008, 12:35:02 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...

I doubt anyone would really notice the difference though, while the Paula DACs are not linear they are not really that far off... :-)

*-Edit- while a Lookup table requires a memory access and a shift doesn't, it's obviously going to be a bit slower, but since the Lookup table is only 256bytes it should fit comfortably into a x86 CPU cache and thus be pretty fast!


To me the WinUAE output sounds harsh to my ears (regardless of the soundcard used) so yes, I do notice. Then again mp3 @ 128kbps sounds the same to me while most people are ok with that  :crazy:

Oh and I don't have a background in programming other then some Pascal/Amos/php stuff, nor hardware (although I did a year of I guess you can call it a midway between college and university classes on electronics- not for me, too much theory)
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2008, 12:38:46 AM »
Quote

Krusher wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...

I doubt anyone would really notice the difference though, while the Paula DACs are not linear they are not really that far off... :-)

*-Edit- while a Lookup table requires a memory access and a shift doesn't, it's obviously going to be a bit slower, but since the Lookup table is only 256bytes it should fit comfortably into a x86 CPU cache and thus be pretty fast!


To me the WinUAE output sounds hars to my ears (regardless of the soundcard used) so yes, I do notice. Then again mp3 @ 128kbps sounds the same to me while most people are ok with that  :crazy:


That is probably more to do with the very low quality (and hence actually rather "warm" sounding) amps on the Amiga motherboard than the actual Paula Audio... plus whatever sound system you used to use with your Amiga...

Offline Krusher

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2008, 12:41:19 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...

That is probably more to do with the very low quality (and hence actually rather "warm" sounding) amps on the Amiga motherboard than the actual Paula Audio... plus whatever sound system you used to use with your Amiga...


More like comparing tubes with new opamps then  :-D

For most of my +18 year old life I've had semi-highend audio equipment. Did a few years recording orchestra's so that might explain it.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2008, 12:58:42 AM »
Quote

Krusher wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...

That is probably more to do with the very low quality (and hence actually rather "warm" sounding) amps on the Amiga motherboard than the actual Paula Audio... plus whatever sound system you used to use with your Amiga...


More like comparing tubes with new opamps then  :-D


yeah, basically... Looking at the A1200 mainboard schematic amp circuits used to bring the DAC output to line level are not high quality, they must introduce a lot of "colour" into the sound.

Quote

For most of my +18 year old life I've had semi-highend audio equipment. Did a few years recording orchestra's so that might explain it.


18... I wish I was 18 again, but knowing what I know now :-)

Offline Krusher

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2008, 01:07:34 AM »
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bloodline wrote:
...

18... I wish I was 18 again, but knowing what I know now :-)


Who wouldn't be, I'm 34 now  :lol:
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2008, 01:08:21 AM »
Quote

Krusher wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...

18... I wish I was 18 again, but knowing what I know now :-)


Who wouldn't be, I'm 34 now  :lol:


Ahhh, so then you are the old man, and I am the young :-D

Offline stefcep2

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2008, 02:30:45 AM »
The mouse control under emulation is not the same as the real thing.  This really changes the feel and the speed and comfort with which I can select and execute things on the GUI.

Also the display of a real Amiga especially on a 1084 seems far more vibrant:  I remember 5 years ago when a PC owner friend saw some hand-drawn picture on my 1084(only pal overscan hires laced) being wowed by the colors.

Some functions in some art packages don't function correctly, resulting in screen garbage.

Stuff which does hardware banging eg scala is far smoother on the real thing.
 
I don't understand this fixation with the annoying floppy disk click:  I actually deliberately turned it off with MCP in the day when I only had Amiga: why emulate an annoyance?

But for convenience emulation is unbeatable.
 

Offline redfox

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2008, 02:37:00 AM »
@amigakidd

Replying to first post ....

I prefer to think of Amiga emulation as one of the many options that are available to us in the Amiga community.

My A2000HD has a 68000 CPU and runs AmigaOS 3.1.
My MicroA1 has an IBM PPC750GX CPU and runs OS4.

On my MicroA1, I use the AmigaOS4/PPC version of E-UAE to provide a more compatible environment for some of my older 68K programs that want to see the classic Amiga chipset or certain features that are not available in OS4.  I emulate a classic amiga with a 68000 CPU, ECS chipset, NTSC and AmigaOS 3.1.  I'm running the 68000 CPU speed at max setting.

E-UAE creates a classic Amiga on my OS4 desktop.  I usually run it in full screen mode, or I can do a "ctrl alt s" and run it as a window on my OS4 Workbench.  In any case it has it's own Workbench and drawers just like on a normal Amiga running AmigaOS 3.1.

I also used E-UAE when I installed TVPaint and Real3D on my MicroA1.  E-UAE allowed me to mount the .adf files as floppy disks and AmigaOS 3.1 gave me access to an older version of the installer program.  I installed TVPaint and Real3D onto my hard drive, quit E-UAE and used OS4 Workbench to drag the TVPaint and Real3D drawers out to where I keep my other applications.  Both programs run fine from my OS4 Workbench.

In summary, 68K programs like Amiga Explorer, Final Writer 97, Personal Paint, TVPaint, Real3D, IBrowse 2.4, AmigaAMP, MakeCD, MicroRexx, and KingCON work just fine on my OS4 Workbench using the 68K emulation provided by OS4.  I just launch them and OS4 takes care of the emulation.  I launch E-UAE when I want to run my really old 68000 stuff or install programs that are supplied as Amiga ADF files.  Then I have a classic Amiga Workbench running on my OS4 Workbench.

---
redfox

 

Offline Krusher

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2008, 02:44:13 AM »
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bloodline wrote:
...

Ahhh, so then you are the old man, and I am the young :-D


I'm well aware, I wish Billie Piper went along for the ride but heh  :lol:
 

Offline amigaksi

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2008, 03:04:12 AM »
>>    So that does not mean that one should get something that is NOT an amiga (from the hardware perspective). You need to convince some of your hardware pals to build you a REAL amiga. As an example, try putting an instruction like $009C,$8010 into the copper list and write an interrupt routine (pointed to by location $68) that does something time critical like writing to joystick ports and there your emulator won't work. The PC timer goes only as accurate as 1.19318Mhz whereas the copper is timing the color clocks at 3.57954525Mhz.

>Sorry, but your paragraph makes no sense.

You forget to end that line with "to me" as you cannot speak for everyone.

>Of course an Emulator would fully support the Amiga interrupts and memory address space... and I think you'll find far more accurate and fine grained timers on a modern PC than on an Amiga... A typical OS quantum on a PC would be 1000 times every second... on the Amiga it was 12 times...

I don't.  I have the latest PC at 2.8Ghz, it has two timers at 1.19318Mhz and 4096Hz (RTC timer).  Why use terms like "would"?  Why don't you try it out and speak with knowledge rather than guess and assume.  Even if I ASSUME there's some timer at a higher rate, what would be the quantum of the timer after ONE interrupt occurs which does an EOI (Mov AL,20h followed by OUT 20H,AL)?

>Get over it the Amiga is old!!

Sure, it's old but it still contains unique features that modern hardware can't emulate.

>>    Souls are only present in living entities-- anything subject to birth, death, old age, disease cannot be a soul.

>You don't know that. Since you can't define a Soul, my calculator might have one!

You should stop ASSUMING things.  Speak from what you know and don't assume what other people know or don't know.  I have experience that I am the same person but the body has changed and others report to me similar experience.  I don't want to ASSUME calculator has a soul.

>>You are a soul that's why you know you are same person (unchanging identity) throughout your life although your body has changed from when you were a baby.

>Actually that's not true, your current stream of consciousness (i.e. your identity is only defined by your memories) may not even survive a night's sleep!!

Some people remember some things and forget other things but remain the same person.  I know that I use my memory and am separate from my memory.  There are NDE (near death experiences) of people going outside their body and giving accounts of what happens, astral projections, etc. etc.  Perhaps, you need to contemplate that a bit more.

>There are plenty of studies in memory disorders to question the nature of consciousness... But this is not the place for that discussion...

Then you should never have replied as I was not discussing but giving my thoughts that someone asked for.  Now that you have stated your ASSUMPTIONS, you are starting the discussion.

>Is MiniMig an Amiga?

If it does what the real Amiga hardware does, yes.

>You thoughts are odd and erratic!

Ahh, but I don't give a crap about what anyone ASSUMES or THINKs.  I am interested in facts.  
Why don't you try out the CIA interrupt on your real Amiga and fake amiga and see the difference?  Try for example, divisor 11942 for CIA timer at 715909Hz and see the difference and then perhaps you can try out the tougher task of the Copper List based timer events which I was talking about.
--------
Use PC peripherals with your amiga: http://www.mpdos.com