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AuthorTopic: Cloanto  (Read 5122 times)

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Offline Minuous

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 01:48:50 PM »
alexh wrote:
Amiga Explorer by Cloanto is a GREAT program.

A Windows program...

I worked closely with H&P on eg. OS3.9 BBs, they were always responsive, I should especially commend Martin Steigerwald.

As to the link given, without seeing the contracts and knowing all the facts it is difficult to be sure of the true course of events. On what can be measured objectively, ie. quality of work, H&P certainly delivered. I think that one of the worst events of the last few years was the hatred of H&P which eventually drove them out of the Amiga market. The Amiga community has seemed eager to persecute H&P.

I can only speak of my own dealing with them, certainly nothing solid seems to have been advanced by those seeking to condemn H&P. If the Amiga community is willing to forgive Elbox for their proven RDB trashing code, we should at least  not rush to judgement against H&P.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: Cloanto
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 02:01:56 PM »
Quote
A Windows program...

And what exactly is wrong with that?

Quote
As to the link given, without seeing the contracts and knowing all the facts it is difficult to be sure of the true course of events.

GENESiS is just a GUI for the AmiTCP/IP. Selling the license (which wasn't transferrable in the first place!) to the GUI does not automagically give you everything else.

H&P knew it, as is quite clear from their offer to obtain the license after the fact.

This is a clear cut case of blatant stealing. Oh, and where is the network stack in AmigaOS 3.5?


Cloanto does not include GENESiS or any other unlicenced AmiTCP/IP files with Amiga Forever. Cloanto has some moral backbone at least.
 

Offline Minuous

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2008, 02:16:22 PM »
by Piru on 2008/4/22 8:01:56

>And what exactly is wrong with that?

When was the last time Cloanto wrote an Amiga program?

>GENESiS is just a GUI for the AmiTCP/IP. Selling the license (which wasn't transferrable in the first place!) to the GUI does not automagically give you everything else.

Seems like the blame would lie with the Genesis developers.

>H&P knew it, as is quite clear from their offer to obtain the license after the fact.

Seems to be an act of goodwill to the Amiga community, given that they were lied to by the Genesis developers.

>Cloanto does not include GENESiS or any other unlicenced AmiTCP/IP files with Amiga Forever. Cloanto has some moral backbone at least.

Yes, they include a crippled version instead of the real thing. I paid for my OS3.9, don't regret a cent, and don't see why the world's best OS should be crippled because of a dispute that has not even been brought before a court. Cloanto seem to be pre-judging the matter.

Rather than backbone, it could be interpreted as Cloanto being fearful of any possible source of litigation, and willing to distribute a crippled version of the AmigaOS rather than facing any such remote legal risk. Needless to say, such a suit would be brought against H&P before being brought against Cloanto, no such suit has ever eventuated nor looks likely to.

 

Offline amigakidd

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2008, 04:21:24 PM »
I think I'm having doubts about Cloanto now,
My Amiga Forever CDs hasn't arrived yet.

See my other thread: Bad Experiences Delivery - Cloanto.

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Curious about: Amiga OS, Morph OS, X-Amiga, Amikit, Amiga Forever, WinUAE, Efika, Minimig,
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Offline tone007

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Re: Cloanto
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2008, 04:58:39 PM »
What a difference a day makes!
3 Commodore file cabinets, 2 Commodore USB turntables, 1 AmigaWorld beer mug
Alienware M14x i7 laptop running AmigaForever
 

Offline weirdami

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2008, 05:03:14 PM »
@Minuous

Quote
I worked closely with H&P...


I read all the posts before posting and you go ahead and give me something to actually quote in favor of the post I was going to make instead of posting something that would cause me to not post at all. I call YOU "shill".

 :roll:
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Offline Piru

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Re: Cloanto
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2008, 09:45:48 PM »
Quote
When was the last time Cloanto wrote an Amiga program?

What's wrong with !=amiga programs? You're suggesting that Amithlon was all {bleep}, too? AROS devs are clearly wasting their time, too?

Quote
a suit would be brought against H&P before being brought against Cloanto, no such suit has ever eventuated nor looks likely to.

That's why it called moral backbone.

It would not be right to profit from something that has shady legal status.
 

Offline Fraccy

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2008, 10:28:39 PM »
@ Minuous

Cloanto has written some of the best quality software available for the Amiga, and their company goes back a LONG way.

Looking at the rest of your post, I'd say you have an irrational grudge against Cloanto. Since you're so publicly venomous, I feel the need to speak out too, but I'll leave my reply at this...


@ amigakidd

My Amiga Forever CDs took a while to arrive too. Cloanto were kind enough to email me and apologise for the delay. Give them a chance: I've dealt with them for YEARS and have never been let down.

Amir
 

Offline amigakidd

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2008, 11:07:20 PM »
@ Fraccy

Thanks for the feedback. I was upset at them this morning when I found out that they didn't deliver the Amiga Forever 2006 Physical CDs since Michael Battilana told me that they were currently out of stock. He will speak to his production team and see if there is any available. Michael is really a nice guy and he actually took the time to send me the email and let me know whats going on. Their share-it customer service in my opinion sucks because they point you back to Cloanto.

Since I have the download, I plan not to run Amiga Forever menu since I don't like it. I bought it for the the official ROMS of course (to be legit), KX Light CD, and the Amiga Deathbed Virgil Videos to accompany On the Edge: Rise and Fall of Commodore Book. Plus Amiga Forever CDs look great in my collection next to Mindcandy: Amiga Demos vol.2 and ON the Edge. I'm a Amiga Collector (Newbie)

Since we will never see a Real Amiga Computer come out in the market anytime soon, I'm creating my own personal distro (WinXP lite install with WINUAE) that uses Cloanto licensed ROMS. This will run on my Asus eee PC.
See my architecture below. You can do the same if you don't want to run Amiga Forever as the actual emulator frontend. I'm saying you don't have to be tied to them, but you must use their ROMS to be legit.


My Distro - Open Architecture
Project Codename: Jay Miner
---------------------

Amiga Games (ADFs loaded on SDHC SD Cards)
and/or Preserved Games/Apps/Demos on CD.
----------------------
INPUT Layer: (X-Arcade, KEYBOARD, JOYSTICK)
----------------------
Virtual Machine Layer:
WINUAE 1.4.6 (Can be upgradable as time goes on)
----------------------
Amiga OS Kernel Layer:
KICKSTART ROMS & WORKBENCH ADFS (CLOANTO Licensed)
Permanent ROMS and ADFs
----------------------
Host OS Layer:
WIN XP or Mac OS X
----------------------
Hardware Layer:
Asus EEE PC or Hardware of Choice



WinUAE enthusiast.

Curious about: Amiga OS, Morph OS, X-Amiga, Amikit, Amiga Forever, WinUAE, Efika, Minimig,
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Offline Minuous

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2008, 12:19:12 AM »
>It would not be right to profit from something that has shady legal status.

AFAIK no evidence has been produced by the relevant developers to justify their claims. If I went around saying things like "OS4 is infringing on my IP" without producing any evidence of this, would that mean that everyone selling OS4 would be lacking in "moral backbone"? Or the same for Windows, or MacOS?

>I'm saying you don't have to be tied to them, but you must use their ROMS to be legit.

This is nonsense. It's annoying to see this kind of misinformation. I suppose by this logic it would be illegal to use A-Max even if you own the Mac ROMs because it is not a solution that is officially approved as "legit" by Apple.
 

Offline Fester

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2008, 12:24:56 AM »
I'm sorry to see this thread.

Cloanto's Amiga Forever was how I got back into the Amiga. I purchased two of the latest versions on CD and would not hesitate to purchase the next version.

This is an excellent piece of software. Its title is fitting.

My two cents.
 

Offline amigakidd

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2008, 12:29:35 AM »
In our situation in the Amiga Community is that Old Hardware is either dying or non-functioning. Emulation is really the way to preserve this, until A-Inc up in Washington comes up with new Amiga hardware, unlikely.
Morph OS? Will never be mass produced to the masses.
Only Hope now to relive Amiga: PC or a Mac with emulation software with your purchased ROMs.

You can emulate legally the Amiga without actually using Cloanto's Amiga Forever Frontend (Which I think is bloated), using just WINUAE, Fellow, E-UAE, UAE, but they are the only provider of legit ROMS or you can transrom it yourself to a PC/MAC.

Let's say in 5 years, when my PC dies, I still have access to the legit ROMs I bought from Cloanto as long as the license keys exist as proof. Or If I move from a PC to Mac, I think Macs use MacUAE, so it would still be possible to emulate the past without losing anything.

Emulation is true preservation of media, all you have to do is jump to computer to computer as time goes on as long as you have your legit ROMs and access to a UAE emulator.


Does this make any sense?
 
WinUAE enthusiast.

Curious about: Amiga OS, Morph OS, X-Amiga, Amikit, Amiga Forever, WinUAE, Efika, Minimig,
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Offline Minuous

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2008, 01:23:27 AM »
I have nothing against emulation.

But people seem to think that using Cloanto's crippled ROMs is the only way to do it, this is wrong.

There is no need to dump them yourself either, if you are the owner of said ROM then you can use said ROM image. There is no need to laboriously generate a ROM image, it is more convenient to download one. As the two would be bit-exact equivalents it does not matter how they were generated.

 

Offline amigakidd

Re: Cloanto
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2008, 02:09:09 AM »
@ Minuous

I agree with your point that the masses, at least the majority of the Amiga Community thinks that Cloanto's licensing of ROM is the only way. It is true to a marketing standpoint of licensing, but I agree with you on Cloanto's domination of the Kickstart ROM images on the Emulation Market. They do have a monopoly on licensing Amiga ROMs and the Workbench Disks. They get all the press coverages on the web, classic gaming expo, and such.

To me, that's evil, but for now its the only way. Now, I don't have an actual Amiga 500 or any Amiga machine at my disposal, but I don't want to hack out the ROM and transfer it to my PC. That takes a long time and I'm not a hardware guru.

I think what you want is another alternative besides Cloanto and transrom. I wish there is a competitor, not to my knowledge. I have learned to like Cloanto, but I don't like their bloated menu frontend to Winuae or their customer service. I like them because they're part of the Amiga Community, they're part of the original boat of developers from wayback. The ROMS breathe life to UAE in general. Without it, WINUAE or UAE is just a stupid application file.

Sure I can download them from a torrent site if I want to, but as an Amiga Fan, I shelled out money to pay for Amiga ROMS, equivalent to buying a real machine, but way cheaper.
I cared about the early developers and those at Commodore who devoted their lives to Amiga. I bought my ROMs not just to have a clear conscience, but to honor the past.
I bought ROMs too to become part of the community, even though I use a PC to run my Amiga games and Software - Accessibility.

I just wish as an alternative, there would be an open source kickstart from GPL. I guess that would make some happy. Hey anything can be open-sourced right? Why not.

As Amiga citizens, What we should be fighting is Apple and Microsoft, not Cloanto.  
:-D
WinUAE enthusiast.

Curious about: Amiga OS, Morph OS, X-Amiga, Amikit, Amiga Forever, WinUAE, Efika, Minimig,
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Offline Piru

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Re: Cloanto
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2008, 03:01:08 AM »
@Minuous
Quote
AFAIK no evidence has been produced by the relevant developers to justify their claims. If I went around saying things like "OS4 is infringing on my IP" without producing any evidence of this, would that mean that everyone selling OS4 would be lacking in "moral backbone"? Or the same for Windows, or MacOS?

There is a "small" difference: It is fact that NSDi Network Solutions Development Inc. wrote AmiTCP/IP, and it is a official press statement by the company, not some random post by some developer. I find it credible.

If you went around claiming such things you'd just sound retarded.

Quote
But people seem to think that using Cloanto's crippled ROMs is the only way to do it, this is wrong.

How are they crippled exactly, if I may ask?

Quote
if you are the owner of said ROM

And if you're not, and there would be no Cloanto, you would be forced to source ebay or fleamarkets for amigas or ROMs. Now that would be silly.