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AuthorTopic: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution  (Read 6889 times)

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Offline MskoDestny

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2005, 05:20:41 AM »
From a CNN/Money article:
Quote
One thing's for sure: The Revolution will not support high definition video, a marked divergence from the path Microsoft (Research) and Sony (Research) are taking. And it's not something the company is re-thinking, despite the fervent hopes of some hardcore gaming fans.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm

As for the 360 and emulation, it's unlikely it's purely a hardware emulator. Assuming the underlying OS is still compatible with the version from the original XBox (which is likely) they'd really only have to emulate the CPU. I believe even the "direct" access to the graphics hardware was handled through a library. HLE is much more efficient than emulating every last bit of the hardware.

I kind of doubt they need a separate emulator for each game. I find it more likely that they have a base emulator core and then config files for individual games to get optimal performance out of them. Many emulators for modern systems have similar behavior needing either special config files for certain games, or certain games needing certain emulation plug-ins to work properly.

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One company has gone on record to handing MS their source code.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's much easier to figure out why a particular piece of software is misbehaving in an emulator if you have the source code.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2005, 05:53:45 PM »
Quote

MskoDestny wrote:
From a CNN/Money article:
Quote
One thing's for sure: The Revolution will not support high definition video, a marked divergence from the path Microsoft (Research) and Sony (Research) are taking. And it's not something the company is re-thinking, despite the fervent hopes of some hardcore gaming fans.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm
[/quote]

that sucks stinky arse but 720x480p widescreen fully ant-aliased will look fine for 95% of the games.  The GC can do this resolution now and 480p is not considered HD.  I think their goal is to give you "Toy Story" quality graphics on your standard TV.  Where as on the other 2 in 720p, you'll still see polygons to some extent.

Quote
Quote
One company has gone on record to handing MS their source code.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's much easier to figure out why a particular piece of software is misbehaving in an emulator if you have the source code.


Right but the gist of the article is that MS is responsible for backwards compatability not the original developers.  All XBOX development was done in an XBOX specific Visual Studio so as long as MS can get the source code, they can recompile for the 360 as a downloadable program and just use the original disc for getting the audio and video data.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #167 on: November 14, 2005, 03:26:43 PM »
Quote
Another snag with the backwards compatibility system being employed between Xbox and Xbox 360 is that there's no way to transfer save data or downloaded content from one console to the other - and users will have to pay for premium content they already own on their Xbox a second time if they want to use it on Xbox 360.


That sucks for people who invested in that...what about game patches?

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12954
 

Offline c64_d0c

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #168 on: November 14, 2005, 04:26:37 PM »
when pirates & hackers get their hands on the xbox360, we will see something like the whdload for the amiga on the xbox360. then all older xbox games will work. getting patches and other stuff shouldnt be to hard either when the xbox360  is modified..


anyway another thing that ps3 fanboys should worry about is the copyprotection on ps3 games..

Quote

Sony will make a patent that ensure no game would be playable from any other ps3 console, other than the one in which it was first read on.
 

so if your brand new ps3 blueray dvd get broken and you get a new one. all of your 10-40 games will not work anymore, no more loaning/swapping games with your friends or selling used games on ebay..

read more HERE...


i guess this is a big blow under the belt for the ps3 fanboys.. and it sure makes the xbox360 an more attractive choice..
________
Extreme q
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 05:52:06 AM by c64_d0c »
On schedule and rockin\\\'!!!1!!
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #169 on: November 14, 2005, 05:25:21 PM »
While Sony has that patent, I don't think they will use it.  Otherwise the rental industry would crash.  Also, wouldn't the disc have to be re-writeable for that to happen?  That would cost way too much.

on the 360:
Also, I don't think people are gonna hack the 360 to play original XBOX games that are on their HD, unless they hack it to bypass copy protection and run a back-up of an original xbox game.  Also the article mentions something that leaves open a major security vunerability...people can burn upgrades to disc and execute that code?  That's insane but will make the 360 the "hacker's" choice with a quickness.

Gotta love Microsoft's security...
 

Offline c64_d0c

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #170 on: November 14, 2005, 07:42:04 PM »
@lou_dias...

Quote

While Sony has that patent, I don't think they will use it. Otherwise the rental industry would crash. Also, wouldn't the disc have to be re-writeable for that to happen? That would cost way too much.


sorry to wake you up and burst your dream bobble, but the rental industry as you know it, was back in the n64 and ps1 time. sony dont make money on rentals and they sure dont care about the rental industry they dont benefit from. how they will get this patent to work i dont know but companies today pay anything to get their stuff protected. i am sure sony will have this protection, and making the games only work on the ps3 they are first read on. money aint the problem for sony, getting games copyed and lose money/control over them, that is a problem for sony. everyone knows that consol makers earn their money from games, not their consoles..


Quote

Also, I don't think people are gonna hack the 360 to play original XBOX games that are on their HD, unless they hack it to bypass copy protection and run a back-up of an original xbox game. Also the article mentions something that leaves open a major security vunerability...people can burn upgrades to disc and execute that code? That's insane but will make the 360 the "hacker's" choice with a quickness.


first of all you will not need to hack the hw to run older xbox games on the xbox360 it is all done in software. i see you mention major security vunerability, but you seems to forget this is a consol and not pc with winxp, there is a big diffrent. now that said i am wondering if you know the diffrent between a hacker and a cracker?... if not you better look it up. becouse the fud you are trying to spread you can keep for you self, you have no credibility whats so ever...

i sure hope the xbox360 will be the "hacker's" choice with a quickness. becouse that was the reason in the first place , why xbox become as popular it is today..




________
Motorcycle tires
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 05:52:15 AM by c64_d0c »
On schedule and rockin\\\'!!!1!!
 

Offline realstar

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #171 on: November 14, 2005, 08:36:51 PM »
It's Nintendo Revolution for me. It's the only console
that is offering a new kind of gaming and not just updated
hardware. (although it will offer that too) Nintendo games
are just too creative and entertaining to pass up and the
Revolution looks to be as exciting in a home console as
the Nintendo DS is for portable gaming. I am sure
that all of these systems will have something to offer
but I am much more piqued by the focus Nintendo is
taking. For now I am happy with my GameCube and PS2 until
Revolution is released. :)
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #172 on: November 14, 2005, 10:49:32 PM »
Quote

c64_d0c wrote:

sorry to wake you up and burst your dream bobble, but the rental industry as you know it, was back in the n64 and ps1 time. sony dont make money on rentals and they sure dont care about the rental industry they dont benefit from. how they will get this patent to work i dont know but companies today pay anything to get their stuff protected. i am sure sony will have this protection, and making the games only work on the ps3 they are first read on. money aint the problem for sony, getting games copyed and lose money/control over them, that is a problem for sony. everyone knows that consol makers earn their money from games, not their consoles..


You are not bursting my bubble.  I don't care about how big the rental industry is.  The rental industry is indirectly responsible for sales.  Someone rents a game, they may decide to buy it.  Also, rental companies buy several copies on average of each game per store.  I wonder how or if that affects sales figures for software sales.

And as far as money comes from games not consoles.  You are wrong and you can read through the middle of this thread to figure out why.  The cost of including a recordable Blue-Ray drive would be astronomical for Sony.  They are only going to lose about $100 on the PS3.  If they included a recording BRD, they would lose several hundred dollars per PS3 sold -  and that's just plain stupid.  They'd be lucky to have the console break even 5 years from now.  So if they lose $200 per console and if they sell 100 million consoles like the PS2 did, they'd lose 20 billion dollars.  Good luck making that up in software sales.


Quote
first of all you will not need to hack the hw to run older xbox games on the xbox360 it is all done in software. i see you mention major security vunerability, but you seems to forget this is a consol and not pc with winxp, there is a big diffrent. now that said i am wondering if you know the diffrent between a hacker and a cracker?... if not you better look it up. becouse the fud you are trying to spread you can keep for you self, you have no credibility whats so ever...

i sure hope the xbox360 will be the "hacker's" choice with a quickness. becouse that was the reason in the first place , why xbox become as popular it is today..



this is the vunerability I was talking about:
Quote
Those without the Xbox Live service can download the software from Xbox.com and burn it onto a CD for loading onto the Xbox 360, or can request that it is delivered to their house for a shipping and handling fee.


If you can burn a cd and have the 360 execute code then the system is already open to hackers and crackers and I don't even care which one you are.  You can hack and crack the 360 all you want, it's no skin off my ass.

So chill out.  I have no credibility huh?  Well you are sounding like quite the rocket scientist.

UBISOFT announce FPS for Revolution in development
 

Offline MskoDestny

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #173 on: November 15, 2005, 12:32:05 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
If you can burn a cd and have the 360 execute code then the system is already open to hackers and crackers and I don't even care which one you are.  You can hack and crack the 360 all you want, it's no skin off my ass.

1) You still have no proof that they're actually recompiling the games. Since this would be incredibly inefficient labor-wise, I find it unlikely that's what they're actually doing.
2) Even if they are actual executables, what makes you think the executables won't be signed with some ridiculously long key that would take who knows how many thousands of years to crack with current computing technology. If that's the case, this feature is no more exploitable than the console's ability to play video files provided by the user.

Quote
And as far as money comes from games not consoles. You are wrong and you can read through the middle of this thread to figure out why.

Well money does come from the games. Console hardware is sold at razor thin margins (and sometimes at a loss). The majority of the profit comes from game sales and game licensing. If you don't believe me, look at the 3DO. The company that handled software licensing (the 3DO corporation) just licensed out the hardware design to consumer electronics manufactures thus completely disconnecting the software profits and hardware profits. The result? The 3DO was ridiculously expensive at launch.

Quote
So if they lose $200 per console and if they sell 100 million consoles like the PS2 did, they'd lose 20 billion dollars. Good luck making that up in software sales.

While I also find it unlikely there will be a recordable BD drive in the PS3, your math is way off. Even if Sony did lose $200 per unit sold at launch, they wouldn't lose $200 on each console sold for the life of the console. The manufacturing costs drop dramatically over the life of the console.

I'm quite exited about the potential for XBox Live Arcade. The reduced cost associated with publishing a game via Live Arcade should allow for some interesting stuff to see the light of day that wouldn't have enough sales (or be too risky) to justify a full retail rollout.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2005, 01:00:53 AM »
Quote

MskoDestny wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
If you can burn a cd and have the 360 execute code then the system is already open to hackers and crackers and I don't even care which one you are.  You can hack and crack the 360 all you want, it's no skin off my ass.

1) You still have no proof that they're actually recompiling the games. Since this would be incredibly inefficient labor-wise, I find it unlikely that's what they're actually doing.
2) Even if they are actual executables, what makes you think the executables won't be signed with some ridiculously long key that would take who knows how many thousands of years to crack with current computing technology. If that's the case, this feature is no more exploitable than the console's ability to play video files provided by the user.


No, I have no proof they are recompiling just like their is no proof that they are not recompiling but why would they need a separate emulator for each game?  The evidence I have posted leads one to believe recompiling is what is happening.
http://www.gamers.com/?run=news&news_id=4379
What did they have to license from NVidia in order to emulate hardware that they own?  Could it be low-level library source code that needs to be recompiled for the ATI gpu?  

Also, I never said games don't make the bulk of money.  I simply said that not all consoles are sold at a loss. (Especially not Nintendo consoles.)

Also, to decrypt encryption, all you need is time.
http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000530067666/
Since all emulators will boot the same way, eventually you see a pattern and someone will figure it out because that is what some people like to do.  Also encryption and de-encryption isn't practical all the time when you need 100% cpu for the actual game.  Usually only save game data is encrypted to thwart the simple cheater that can edit the gamesaves in a hex editor.

Sony's games are secure because their drive format (BLUE RAY) is proprietary (hmmm...kinda like Nintendo...).  Though it will be mass-marketed...  Funny how people critisize Nintendo for it...  Sony is trying to control your living room more than MS.

Quote
Quote
So if they lose $200 per console and if they sell 100 million consoles like the PS2 did, they'd lose 20 billion dollars. Good luck making that up in software sales.

While I also find it unlikely there will be a recordable BD drive in the PS3, your math is way off. Even if Sony did lose $200 per unit sold at launch, they wouldn't lose $200 on each console sold for the life of the console. The manufacturing costs drop dramatically over the life of the console.


If they lose $100 a console and expect to sell 20 million in a year...that's 2 Billion in loses.

I underestimated the $200 because with a recordable BLUE RAY drive, you actually put the losses much higher than $200 expecially if they expect to lose just over $100 now with just a player.
http://portablevideo.engadget.com/entry/1234000407066657
Quote
By the time the reporter talks about the Cell processor they start sounding like Sony marketing cheat sheet, but they do make it very clear that the PS3 will apparently cost between $300 and $400 upon its debut, and that according to “a high-level studio executive,” the “PS3 is a subsidized Blu-ray player that will sell 20 million units. The first HD player will be on the market for $1,000. ... Sony will be selling them at a loss the first six months to a year just to get Blu-ray players out in the market.”


again, that's players, not recorders...

Quote
I'm quite exited about the potential for XBox Live Arcade. The reduced cost associated with publishing a game via Live Arcade should allow for some interesting stuff to see the light of day that wouldn't have enough sales (or be too risky) to justify a full retail rollout.


Yeah, things seem to be moving to "online distribution".  Even Nintendo is going that way with the "virtual console" feature of Revolution.  Personally, I like a pretty box and printed manual.
 

Offline McNorris

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #175 on: November 15, 2005, 01:22:02 AM »
"I'll give you the kiddy thing, but I don't let that bother me, especially when you can get a lot of the "standard" titles on all the main machines. I think kiddy image games like the Zelda and Mario series can hold just as much grown-up attention provided they're well-written games, and they are."

You know I just don't get the "kiddie thing." Was Pac-Man (Original) "Kiddie?"

Look, I don't think you needs t1ts and intestines to make a game fun for an adult.

I play Mariokart while listening to Maiden.
Maiden=Great Metal
Mariokart=Great Game
Super Monkey Ball 2=Satanic game (eventually came out for PS2/XBox as "Super Monkey Ball Deluxe)

I guess what "kiddie" means is that you want to play games that you would not show to a child. I can relate to that, but I don't think that is the end all in game design. Socrates said, "You are what you repeatably do." (something to think about)

I think games should be easy to learn, challenging to master , easy to put down, and rich in their replay value.

Nintendo works for me here. I'm sure there are a few titles for PS2/XBox that fit (Super Monkey Ball being one), but I liked the GC for form and function. I owned a PS, not an N64, but I have honestly enjoyed my Gamecube. I would miss some of the GC-only titles just like I have missed a couple of titles on other consoles.

And honestly, I was all about as PS3 until I started looking into word about Revolution. I think I'm Revolution. (One {bleep} about Nintendo... WE NEED A FREAKIN' LIGHT GUN!!! Remember Duck Hunt for god's sake? Why no light gun games?)

Other factors in rebuking Sony:

-PS had the loading issue. (It would load only if the unit was upside down.
-My buddy's laptop "restore" software. It isn't flexible in its partitioning scheme. Has cost me time working on his computer. (Oh yeah, and the bundles software mostly sucks).
-Their latest little rootkit stunt (a big deal for me. Reminds me of the MS DR-DOS trick)
-Last CRT purchased green-screened in the first month, took Sony a month to send it to me. AND they didn't even send me any shwag or coupons for my trouble.
-My current TFT... 3 stuck pixels. THE LAST SONY PRODUCT I BUY ON SONY'S LONG GONE REPUTATION OF QUALITY

I was a Sony "fanboy" but with Sony, I really don't think the head knows what the a$$ is doing... The company is trying to be all things to all people. So I guess now I am a Nintendo "fanboy."
Where to get the news that matters...
http://www.theonion.com...
 

Offline MskoDestny

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #176 on: November 15, 2005, 03:06:37 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
No, I have no proof they are recompiling just like their is no proof that they are not recompiling but why would they need a separate emulator for each game?  The evidence I have posted leads one to believe recompiling is what is happening.
http://www.gamers.com/?run=news&news_id=4379
What did they have to license from NVidia in order to emulate hardware that they own?  Could it be low-level library source code that needs to be recompiled for the ATI gpu?

There's a library that's part of the XBox devkit for low-level access to the nVidia hardware and it's likely that re-implementing this library would have infringed on one of nVidia's patents. It's likely there is a native version of this for the 360 that the emulation uses (this is fundamentally how UltraHLE worked). However, this doesn't require them to recompile the games.

I already gave an explanation as to why they might need a separate "emulator" for each game.

Quote
Also, to decrypt encryption, all you need is time.

It took almost 5 years to decrypt a short message encrypted in RC5-64 (which uses a measly 64-bit key) using thousands of computers from around the world. It would be trivial for Microsoft to use a key large enough that it won't be cracked for a very long time.

Quote
Since all emulators will boot the same way, eventually you see a pattern and someone will figure it out because that is what some people like to do.  Also encryption and de-encryption isn't practical all the time when you need 100% cpu for the actual game.

You don't have to sign everything, just the emulator update. It's checked once when you install it (well I'm guessing here of course). That's all that's needed for security in this case.

Quote
Sony's games are secure because their drive format (BLUE RAY) is proprietary (hmmm...kinda like Nintendo...).

Blu-Ray is a standard. Besides the PS2 used standard DVD-ROMs and the only way to get homebrew running on that (apart from PS2 linux anyway) is to exploit a bug in the PS-1 emulation or physically modify the console.

Quote
Funny how people critisize Nintendo for it...

They criticise Nintendo for it because it reduced disc capacity and raised disc manufacturing costs. The PS3 will undoubtedly still support standard DVD-ROMs for games that don't need the capacity and while Blu-Ray does cost more, it does offer substantially more capacity.

Quote
I underestimated the $200 because with a recordable BLUE RAY drive, you actually put the losses much higher than $200 expecially if they expect to lose just over $100 now with just a player.

I don't think a recordable drive will be twice as costly to manufacture. It's basically a standard drive with a second laser, some more junk in the firmware, and maybe a little extra supporting hardware to maintain burn integrity.

Now I still don't think Sony will include a recordable BD drive for a number of reasons.

Quote
Yeah, things seem to be moving to "online distribution".  Even Nintendo is going that way with the "virtual console" feature of Revolution.  Personally, I like a pretty box and printed manual.

Unless Nintendo sells their old games super cheap (like in the $1-$2 dollar range) I probably won't be interested in their online offerings. I like playing old games on the real hardware and most games can be had quite cheap through used video games stores and ebay.

What has me excited about Live Arcade is that it allows games to come to the XBox that never could under a retail scenario. This is already starting to happen on the PC with Steam. Ragdoll Kung-fu appears to be an innovative and potentially addictive game, but it never would have been released at retail.
 

Offline coldfish

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #177 on: November 15, 2005, 03:28:44 AM »
Well, the compatability list is a hell of a lot larger than I'd have thought, and growing.  

Also, the individual patches are a lot smaller (<5MB).  And that you can dl them using a PC and burn them to a CD then read that burnt CD on your 360 is a surprise too.

I'm impressed! There's a lot to be said for 360 if it can software emulate an Xbox and go on to improve the visual quality on top of that.  I guess Xbox's archetectural simplicity has paid off in this case.


http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/backwardcompatibilityqa.htm



 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #178 on: November 15, 2005, 08:37:17 PM »
about the Sony DRM issue:

http://www.ps3today.com/Blogs/News/hqs/blr_925.aspx

case closed.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #179 on: November 16, 2005, 05:15:50 PM »
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/press_release.php?aid=13036

Maybe now lawyer Jack Thompson can s.t.f.u. once and for all and realize it's a parent's responsibility to control what types of games their kids play...