Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Amiga Kit Amiga Store Hollywood MAL AMIStore App Store A600 Memory

AuthorTopic: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM  (Read 7191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dammy

TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« on: December 24, 2004, 05:31:12 PM »
Bounty #23, Kickstart ROM Replacement with a AROS ROM is now open.  Thanks to David F. for creating it and Tim R. for matching the initial donation.

Dammy
TeamAROS
Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline MskoDestny

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2004, 07:40:49 PM »
Is there a more precise description of this bounty?

What kind of emulated hardware is this ROM supposed to target?  OCS? ECS? AGA?  Which memeber of the 68K family should it support?

Presumably this is going to be used with old Amiga apps and not ones recompiled for AROS.  So just how compatible does it need to be?  Does it need to support all the Kickstart 3.X ROM calls, or just those from an earlier version?
 

Offline DFergATL

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2004, 09:42:50 PM »
I don't know that I can answer all the questions but I am the one who started the bounty.

The idea is port the existing Aros "kickstart", or whatever Aros calls there version, to be able to boot in UAE.

I could not answer exactly what verion of the 68k processor.  It should be the most compatable without being overkill.  
Sir, I believe that we have a problem with your brain being missing.  -Firefly-
 

Offline DonnyEMU

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2004, 10:57:53 PM »
I just read the bounty here and this confuses me too..

Bounty #23
Description:   Kickstart ROM Replacement
Bounty:   $125
Donors:   David F. ($50)
Tim R. ($50)
Olivier ($25)
Status:   Open

Objectives

   1. Create a fully functional AROS Kickstart ROM replacement for UAE.


Replacement for UAE?? Like a ROM file for UAE.. Is this for ArosUAE?? Or is it a kickstart that boots AROS on classic Amiga hardware ( was 68K Aros Made??)..  This really confuses me when I read this.. Do you intend on creating a kick.rom file that runs UAE that's made from AROS's open source kickstart (exec) routines? This is not very clear..
======================================
Don Burnett Developer
http://blog.donburnett.com
don@donburnett.com
======================================
 

Offline MskoDestny

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2004, 11:32:09 PM »
I suppose the better question is what programs are you trying to run in UAE?  Will they run fine on an A500 running Kickstart/Workbench 1.3 or do they require an AGA machine with Kickstart 3.X or perhaps something in between?

If there are specific programs that need to work with the replacement kickstart it would be helpful to know what those are.

EDIT:
Quote
Replacement for UAE?? Like a ROM file for UAE.. Is this for ArosUAE?? Or is it a kickstart that boots AROS on classic Amiga hardware ( was 68K Aros Made??).. This really confuses me when I read this.. Do you intend on creating a kick.rom file that runs UAE that's made from AROS's open source kickstart (exec) routines? This is not very clear..

As I understand it, he (or she) is looking for a Kickstart ROM for use in classic Amigas (well emulated ones at least) based on the AROS sources.  This would not be a full port of AROS to the classic Amiga (which I believe was started at one point, but was dropped and is far from finished), but just the subset representing the functions that the Kickstart ROM is responsible for.
 

Offline jdiffend

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2004, 11:38:21 PM »
I'm interested it doing this (have been for some time).  I've written ROM code including part of the OS for a 68020 based embedded system in the past and this would not be difficult if the pieces are there I'd need.

Boot how?  Floppy?  Hard drive?  And for which machine?
How much of the OS has to be in the ROM to qualify?  Just enough to boot from ROM or move everything possible to ROM?  Initially I'd say keep the ROM to a minimum.  That makes it easy for the bootstrap code to be compatible with all CPUs (Hint, Coldfire, Hint) and reduce the number of updates till the OS is more mature.

Just how much of the existing Amiga ROM does the Amiga version of AROS make use of (I've never looked at it)?  It has to be ZERO after it's loaded for this to work!

The Amiga needs a graphics library to even print text on the screen.  It has no hardware character generator.

Does AROS have an Amiga compatible trackdisk.device for use with the Amiga floppy drives/interface?  If not, booting from that is out of the question.

Does AROS have a scsi.device that is compatible with the 3000 or 1200 hard drive interfaces?  If not, that's out of the question.

The bootstrap code, interrupt tables, tables for libraries & devices, auto config, RAM setup, etc... are not really difficult, just time consuming.  Add on boards with their own ROM drivers could be problematic.

This is what I KNOW the ROM needs initially (unless you just have a minimal bootstrap like the 1000 did).
680x0 code to set up interupt table (and coldfire 68K emulation ;), stack, some hardware, auto config, etc...
exec.library
timer.device
trackdisk.device and or scsi.device
graphics.library (so we can display errors)
dos.library
some sort of file system
and I'm sure many other things

Anyone ever release a FLASH memory Kickstart board for the Amiga?  It would be a lot easier with that.  I have a bunch of Flash memory but I'd have to design/build an adapter board and program the chips.  The board isn't difficult to design but a professionally printed sample board, setup costs, FLASH chips, shipping... would amount to more than the bounty.  At least the last time I had a board printed initial setup wasn't cheap.
 

Offline Dan

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2004, 12:12:50 AM »
Quote

DFergATL wrote:
I don't know that I can answer all the questions but I am the one who started the bounty.

The idea is port the existing Aros "kickstart", or whatever Aros calls there version, to be able to boot in UAE.

I could not answer exactly what verion of the 68k processor.  It should be the most compatable without being overkill.  

I think the best aim would be similar to a "clean" A1200, Kickstart 3.1, 020, AGA?
The goal is to get the 68k-version of AROS going for running "old" systemfriendly 68k amiga-programs in AROS-UAE without having to get a copy of Kickstart and Workbench from somewhere else, right?
Whats needed for that I have no idea about really.
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

Offline jdiffend

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2004, 12:38:01 AM »
WinUAE ROM... didn't think of that. (Duh)  That would be the easy way to do it.  CPU independant code though (not just 68020).  Coldfire would require additional code so that would be a future option.

I'd say some libraries would have to stay on disk since the C code won't generate as small of binaries as the hand made assembly that's already there.

I'll have to see what the cross development tools are like and take a serious look at building this.
 

  • Guest
Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2004, 01:01:31 AM »
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
WinUAE ROM... didn't think of that. (Duh)  That would be the easy way to do it.  CPU independant code though (not just 68020).  Coldfire would require additional code so that would be a future option.

I'd say some libraries would have to stay on disk since the C code won't generate as small of binaries as the hand made assembly that's already there.

I'll have to see what the cross development tools are like and take a serious look at building this.


Excellent, I knew someone somewhere would have the neccessary skills to do this, and more importantly also want to do it! :-D

I think everyone who uses UAE in one of it's forms would love to see it have a 68k ROM replacement and AROS running under it instead of OS3.x

I'm gonna donate to the bounty in a couple of weeks when i get my student loan.  I urge everyone else who can afford it to do so too.
 

Offline dammy

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2004, 03:14:26 PM »
Quote
Replacement for UAE?? Like a ROM file for UAE.. Is this for ArosUAE?? Or is it a kickstart that boots AROS on classic Amiga hardware ( was 68K Aros Made??).. This really confuses me when I read this.. Do you intend on creating a kick.rom file that runs UAE that's made from AROS's open source kickstart (exec) routines? This is not very clear..


I've reworded it to include more information.

Dammy
TeamAROS
Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline jdiffend

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2004, 06:34:53 PM »
I spent some time looking at this and here is what I found.

The current 68K port that was in the works isn't available for download and was for the Palm anyway.  That in itself is no big deal but it means there are no AROS scsi.device driver, trackdisk.device or graphics drivers for the Amiga hardware.

I seem to remember a replacement ide driver for the 1200/4000 that was open source but I'm not certain.  That could be the basis for a driver to boot from the hard drive.

I once worked on a program to read COCO 5 1/4" disks on the Amiga 5 1/4" drives and I really don't want to write a trackdisk.device.  That's just too much work.  If anyone knows of a replacement that's open source then it might be possible.

As for graphics... that alone would be as much work as everything else combined.  After all, your talking about supporting all video modes, sprites, etc... for full 3.1 compatability.  

I sat down last night and wrote some C code that was the functional equivalent of the initial exec startup code.  It still needs stack pointer set and cache contral set but it does set up some hardware, set the LED, check for first time startup, set up interrupt table (partially complete) etc...  Only around 100-150 lines so far with comments but it's pretty easy.

Getting the machine to boot from IDE wouldn't really bother me... but I'm not thrilled about writing the trackdisk.device and graphics.library.  
 

Offline MskoDestny

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2005, 07:17:25 AM »
There is an amiga folder in the unmaintained folder of the AROS source, but from the looks of things it's all quite old and incomplete.  Might be easier than starting from scratch though.
 

Offline jdiffend

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2005, 04:50:00 PM »
Quote
MskoDestny wrote:
There is an amiga folder in the unmaintained folder of the AROS source, but from the looks of things it's all quite old and incomplete.  Might be easier than starting from scratch though.


If it's old it would probably require as much work to get it in sync with the latest release (not that AROS has ever really had an official release version) as it would to do it over.  Besides, most of what I'd have to do probably isn't in there at all.

A bootable Amiga AROS is one thing... a 3.1 REPLACEMENT implies a lot more work.  Booting AROS means porting enough of AROS to boot and some startup code to set up the hardware.  A 3.1 replacement means it has to support ALL graphics modes from the Amiga.  That alone may be a larger project than many of the other bounties combined and then there are other hardware drivers that need to be written.

Remember, on PC's most graphics are chunky... on the Amiga most use bit planes and the AROS graphics lib isn't likely to support that.
 

Offline jdiffend

Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2005, 06:25:09 PM »
I'm looking through the AROS source now and I keep finding things that need to be written to build an Amiga version.

At this point I think it's safe to say that a fully 3.1 compatible ROM is NOT practical.

What is practical:
Bootstrap code
exec.library
Timer.device
keyboard
ide driver
Fixed mode graphics display not using hardware blitter/sprites
existing AROS file systems
And as many of the AROS libs as the ROM will hold.

This should allow any program that works when recompiled under AROS to work and even some games that directly bang the hardware... but 100% compatibility is something that would require way too much work.
 

  • Guest
Re: TeamAROS Bounty #23 AROS Kickstart Replacement ROM
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2005, 08:12:13 PM »
Quote

jdiffend wrote:
I'm looking through the AROS source now and I keep finding things that need to be written to build an Amiga version.

At this point I think it's safe to say that a fully 3.1 compatible ROM is NOT practical.

What is practical:
Bootstrap code
exec.library
Timer.device
keyboard
ide driver
Fixed mode graphics display not using hardware blitter/sprites
existing AROS file systems
And as many of the AROS libs as the ROM will hold.

This should allow any program that works when recompiled under AROS to work and even some games that directly bang the hardware... but 100% compatibility is something that would require way too much work.


Speaking for myself, I would be happy just to have a rom replacement that can boot UAE into a 68k compiled AROS.  As you say, 100% compatibility is impractical, and I don't think it's even neccessary.