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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: tlgrooms on July 17, 2020, 04:37:41 PM

Title: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 17, 2020, 04:37:41 PM
Back in 2007 I was trying to install OS 4 on my 3000T with Cyberstorm PPC accelerator and Picasso IV. During the process, I restarted the machine (not while it was doing anything) and it failed to boot. Ever since then this is what I have gotten. I tried getting help with it a few times over the years here at Amiga.org and EAB but never was able to figure out why it won't boot. I'm attaching a youtube link of my 3000T when it is powered on. It cycles over and over as seen in the video. The power light flashes 7 times between each cycle and screen is black.

Here are some of the suggestions and things I have tried:



There is no apparent damage on the board anywhere and like I say, it failed on a restart. It was working perfectly fine until that restart.

If anyone has any suggestions of anything else I might try or knows of anyone who might take a look at it and see if they can fix it I'd sure appreciate the help. I would love to get my 3000T going again. I am located in Arkansas but wouldn't mind driving several hours to meet with someone who would take a look at it and see if they can figure out what's going on with it. Hate to ship it anywhere as the board is huge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQtFA8iEVhA
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: TribbleSmasher on July 17, 2020, 06:10:33 PM
Is it possible that your NVRAM is damaged or the battery low on power?
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 17, 2020, 06:26:24 PM
I'm not sure.  I don't have a battery onboard anymore and I didn't have when it went down.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Matt_H on July 17, 2020, 08:19:47 PM
Just throwing out a few guesses here...

This looks an awful lot like what my 4000T was doing when my accelerator wasn't seated correctly. Double/triple/quadruple check that it's fully seated (and make sure all the standoffs/posts are in place to support it--and, though unlikely, that you're not experiencing this issue (https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;pic=873)). Push down on the connector with a pencil eraser to ensure a tight fit.

It looks like it's crashing very early in the boot process, but can you get into the Early Startup menu (hold both mouse buttons)? What about the Cyberstorm menu (Esc key, I think)?

Can you confirm that your machine has an onboard 030? (Worth checking because some 3000Ts don't.) If so, try again without the accelerator and double check the motherboard jumper settings for the onboard CPU.

Have you tried disconnecting the hard drive? OS4 is extremely finicky and I wonder if something it installed in the RDB (e.g., a filesystem) is causing the machine to crash. I suspect it's not this because it looks like it's crashing before it even tries to access the drive, but you never know...
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: don27dog on July 18, 2020, 07:09:09 PM
Looks like your accelerator is not making good contact or your motherboard settings are wrong.

Here are the 3000T jumper settings

060
100 3-4
102 1-2
104 1-2
103 2-3

040
100 3-4
102 2-3
104 2-3
103 1-2

030
100 1-2
102 2-3
104 1-2
103 2-3

I would start by removing all boards .... set the motherboard jumpers to 030 and try booting off the onboard 030 then start adding the addons one by one.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 20, 2020, 06:51:38 AM
Matt_H

Cannot get into early startup menu or cyberstorm menu.  I can reset the startup process by pressing ctrl-amiga-amiga though.  Otherwise the power light flashes 7 times and then restarts over and over.

It has the onboard 030 and as stated above, I have pulled all cards including the cyberstorm, reset the jumpers for the 030 and still get the same thing.

No hard disk or floppy drives are connected.  It is strictly bare bones.  Although all of the above were in place when this first started happening including the hard disk and floppies, cyberstorm, picasso_iv, etc.

I have double and triple checked the jumper settings including again just now with what don27dog just posted.  Same thing I have and have been trying.


Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: don27dog on July 20, 2020, 07:43:30 PM
Will it boot off of a floppy disk? Could be scsi termination problem. Try removing the scsi cable from motherboard and see if the insert disk screen will come up.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 20, 2020, 07:46:50 PM
No, floppies do nothing.  There is nothing hooked up to the motherboard at present, no hard drives, no floppies, no cd.  All the socketed memory has been pulled as well as the cyberstorm and picasso iv.  Jumpers reset to 030 setting.  Still getting the same thing.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: don27dog on July 20, 2020, 07:53:15 PM
My 3000t did something similar years ago but I can't remember what fixed it. I will keep thinking about it and see if anything else pops into myhead.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 20, 2020, 08:04:55 PM
Thanks I appreciate your trying.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: TribbleSmasher on July 20, 2020, 08:10:21 PM
Because you already checked for the PSU i guess you have probably one tiny cap or filter gone broken resulting in some essential clock or signal missing. If this is the case you certainly need some lab equipment to find that.

Did you try different ROMs, like the DiagROM, or attach a serial debug to it and see if something gots out?

http://www.diagrom.com/index.php/download/
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Matt_H on July 20, 2020, 08:32:30 PM
This won't fix the problem, but reconnect the floppy drive(s) as you continue testing. That may seem counterintuitive, but a barebones Amiga configuration expects a floppy drive to be connected. Not having a floppy drive produces its own set of odd symptoms, so keeping the floppies connected will prevent those symptoms from getting mixed up with the ones you're already experiencing.

It's a longshot, but consider removing the motherboard to see if there's any debris on the underside that may be causing a short, or if a solder point on the underside has punctured the insulation shield and is shorting against the case.

Capacitor failure is less likely on the 500/2000/3000(T) compared to the 600/1200/4000, but it is a possibility. If you're removing the motherboard, it's worth checking them with a multimeter.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Castellen on July 20, 2020, 09:18:28 PM
I'd agree to first remove any CPU board and return the jumpers to use the onboard 68030.  The CPU jumper configuration posted above looks as though it might be A3000D specific.  The A3000T is a bit different, see what I have documented here under A3000T CPU JUMPERS:
http://amiga.serveftp.net/A3000_HardwareGuide/jumpers.html

You'll likely need to use the left hand column in the table.

Regarding your other post about damaged contents of the NVRAM causing the issue; the system will work fine (using defaults) if the NVRAM contents are lost, or even if the RP5C01 real time clock IC is removed.  And invalid NVRAM is more likely to cause scsi.device to hang near the end of the ROM boot sequence, which isn't what you're seeing.  The RP5C01 is socketed in the A3000T (the DIP18 package near the edge of the board, by the battery), so to eliminate the NVRAM theory you could remove the RP5C01 and see if that makes a difference.

Regarding the lack of floppy drive connection, that will cause some boot delay as the system tries to read a drive that isn't there, but it'll eventually get over it without indicating a system error.

And regarding capacitors, the system will typically boot without electrolytic capacitors fitted, let alone if the existing ones are reduced in capacity.  That's a fairly wild stab in the dark.

Best guess it might have some kind of chip memory read/write issue, which since the minimalistic test in ROM only does a basic longword read/write every 16kB or something, and doesn't check for address issues, it will not indicate a green screen error for address faults.  Instead the system will fail early on when it attempts to use the memory it tested to be good.  Using DiagROM as suggested is helpful to see any obvious chip memory problems (but still won't detect address issues, which will also cause DiagROM to fail).  I'd need to attach the hardware debugger to the board to see where it's failing during boot and exactly what's going on.  It's not feasible to do this level of remote hardware fault finding using guesswork.

If you can't find anyone locally to repair the main board, I'm happy to take a look.  The main board weighs around 2.6kg with packaging, shipping to NZ isn't the cheapest for that weight/volume, though I expect the board would likely be repairable.

http://amiga.serveftp.net
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 21, 2020, 05:39:30 AM
I was able tonight to put in a set of v1.0 Diagroms and this was the result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3naLuT53w6o

I will be trying to hook up to a pc as soon as I can get one set up with a serial port.

No matter what keys I tried on the keyboard the result was the same as in the video.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: TribbleSmasher on July 21, 2020, 11:55:07 AM
The weird repeated chars at the end of words must give some clues, is Chucky here on this board?
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Ancalimon on July 21, 2020, 04:52:44 PM
Didn't the CyberstormPPC require a modification on the A3000? You probably have that mod but maybe it's related.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 22, 2020, 02:19:03 PM
Only mod I am aware of is the INT_2 modification and it will work either with or without an accelerator after the mod.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 22, 2020, 02:20:55 PM
I tried swapping the 4 pal chips and both CIA chips with known working ones from my 3000 Desktop.  No change.
The chips from the 3000T also worked fine in the 3000 Desktop after the swap.

Next, going to try to find a place to purchase a set of v1.2 diagroms and also the cables I need for the serial output from them.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Kawazu on July 22, 2020, 05:51:19 PM
I know that you have checked the psu but did you get a stable tick voltage during boot? And when you changed to a atx psu did you change the jumper for the tick?
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 22, 2020, 06:47:39 PM
Yes, tried both an ATX power supply with the adapter and a new old stock 3000T power supply.  Both gave same results as original.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on July 29, 2020, 04:55:03 AM
Hooked the 3000T up to my 1200 with a null modem cable tonight.  Pretty much the same thing as the video other than an additional line of output at the beginning.

Still was only able to see the menu and the system information options.  Wasn't able to select any of the other menu options.  I tried a couple of different keyboards so it shouldn't have anything to do with them.  See attached...



Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: cdh on July 31, 2020, 10:00:41 AM
Any chance you are able to burn a newer DiagROM version?  I recommend getting 1.2.1, which Chucky recently released:
    http://www.diagrom.com/
You can press the space bar at the main menu to switch between PAL (default) and NTSC mode. This needs to be done before the screen will draw correctly for NTSC users.

I don't know if the A3000T's SCSI driver acts the same as the A3000D, but I'm guessing it does. With my A3000D (3.1 ROM) if there is no SCSI drive attached, then the Amiga will just hang at power on rather than show the insert disk or boot select screen.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on August 02, 2020, 04:11:37 AM
I can't burn them myself.. Been trying to find someone here in the states who can, so far no luck.  Guess i'll have to order a set from across the pond.

Do you know if version 1.1 of the diagroms will allow you to switch between ntsc/pal with the space bar?  I think that's what version I have, it says 1.0 from the main menu but the serial output is showing 1.1.

Will try hooking the hard drive back up to the built in scsi but i'm pretty sure it has no affect as i've tried it before a long time ago..
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: cdh on August 02, 2020, 08:26:47 AM
It looks like the space bar to switch between PAL and NTSC was added for DiagROM 1.2. I don't know how to switch between PAL and NTSC in the older DiagROM. If the serial port is working for you, then that's probably your best bet.

I'm in the Bay Area of CA and have an EEPROM programmer, but no blank parts right now. Hopefully my order from eBay (China) will arrive soon. I've been using F2R16 flash parts from GGLabs for my own systems. Wish I could figure out a cheap way to program the MX29F1615PC flash parts. I've exhausted all my ideas and have given up trying to get my TL866II Plus to program them. They are cheap on eBay, 2MB in size, and pin-compatible with Amiga EEPROM sockets.

Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: don27dog on August 02, 2020, 09:49:10 PM
Try checking floppy drive cable. I had mine fall off once and just reached up in there and put it on backwards and it wouldn't boot off the HD until I re attached it in the proper orientation.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on August 11, 2020, 03:13:57 PM
I've ordered a set of 1.2.1 diagroms about a week ago.  Had to order them from the UK and I am in the states so waiting on them.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on August 22, 2020, 03:28:56 AM
Got the v1.2.1 Diagroms and installed them.  I'm able to run some of the tests now.  See video below.   
https://youtu.be/r9p2CtPoVgU
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: TribbleSmasher on August 22, 2020, 12:49:35 PM
It shows the same repeated chars at the end of text again( like 'address-spaceee)'. This must indicate something!?

Also, if two audiochannels are bonkers, does this mean Paula is defective?
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Matt_H on August 22, 2020, 06:38:43 PM
This is the strangest hardware problem I've ever seen. I have absolutely no idea what the problem could be.
I've never heard of a Paula failure before, but it's an easy chip to replace so it might be worth trying on the remote chance that it fixes things.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Castellen on August 24, 2020, 09:00:23 PM
I've seen these symptoms a number of times before, and it's usually caused by a chip memory address fault.  See my previous post on this subject where I'd hypothesised this.  This latest clue adds plausibility.

From experience, it's most likely a fault in one of the DRAMs.  Address faults are tricky to isolate to a specific device, so the best bet is probably to replace the chip memory DRAMs with new or known good devices.  You'll need a good desoldering station as half of the DRAMs are soldered into the board in the A3000T.

And in case you've not done so yet, remove the socketed chip memory DRAMs and repeat the test as this will force DiagROM to use the bottom half of the memory.  If the problem remains, then you've got the options of attempting some very complicated address fault finding, or replacing the DRAMs.

Would be useful if you can post the serial (text) output from DiagROM or post a screen shot, I don't do YouTube.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on August 25, 2020, 04:06:09 PM
I have pulled all the socketed memory off of the board before running the above tests.  All the cards, drives and everything else.  It's barebones.  I'll run the tests thru the serial port tonight and post here.  Thanks again for the help and suggestions.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Castellen on August 29, 2020, 09:44:57 PM
Coincidentally, I just noticed that Chucky has been working on some memory address tests for DiagROM:
http://www.diagrom.com/index.php/download/

I've not tried it yet, but would certainly be worth a look in your case.  For the time being, you'll need to use the daily build until this feature makes it into to the 'stable' version.
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: tlgrooms on August 31, 2020, 08:54:40 AM
Attached is the link to the serial output from Diagrom 1.2.1. The 3000T only has the onboard ram in it, all other socketed memory has been removed.

I unfortunately don't have a way to burn my own roms. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pmnlP343S1JPgVoClhnrVtaTL2zWdoXa/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: Castellen on August 31, 2020, 08:55:36 PM
From the DiagROM output, there's quite obviously a chip memory problem.

For a start, it consistently reports:
  - Test of writing byte (even) $ff to $400 FAILED

If you're using a terminal in ANSI/VT220 mode, this will appear in red, to highlight the problem.



It then correctly reports the memory address range, and correctly decides on a base address of $ECCEA:
Startaddr: $00000400  Endaddr: $000FFFFF
  - Fastmemcheck skipped as we found chipmem
- Parallel Code $fb - Memorydetection done

  Using $000ECCEA as start of workmem (Base) 



But the base address is then somehow reported as $EEEEAAAA:

Detected Chipmem: 1024kB
Detected Motherboard Fastmem: 00kB
Basememory address: $000EEEEAAAA 

Of course there's no memory at that address, so it could never work with that.  It's more likely to be an issue with the string being written as EEEEAAAA instead of the expected ECCEA.


In fear of sounding like a broken record, this looks exactly like a chip memory fault, which is probably caused by one of the eight soldered in 256k x 4bit DRAMs being defective, but it's not easy to pinpoint which DRAM has the issue.  Fortunately they're not that hard to find new and were around $3ea when I last bought some.  Your cheapest and easiest route from here would be to buy eight new 256kx4 DRAMs in ZIP package, find someone local who is very good at through hole component soldering work, and get them to replace all 8 DRAMs.  Note that these parts are different from the 1Mx4 DRAM as used for A3000 fast memory.

As a source of DRAMs, contact Michael M (mechy on Amiga.org) who may have stock of these in America.  I can share his Email address privately if needed.



And FYI, I quickly ran DiagROM v1.2.1 in a good A1200 for a comparison of what to expect on a correctly working machine:


Code: [Select]
[With A1200, 2MB memory, DiagROM v1.2.1]

Garbage before this text was binary numbers: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 240
5, 170 and 85
To help you find biterrors to paula. Now starting normal startuptext etc

Amiga DiagROM V1.2.1 - 16-Jul-20  - By John (Chucky/The Gang) Hertell


Testing if serial loopbackadapter is installed: <> NOT DETECTED
- Parallel Code $ff - Start of ROM, CPU Seems somewhat alive
    Checking status of mousebuttons for different startups:

    Set all Interrupt enablebits (INTENA $dff09a) to Disabled: Done
    Set all Interrupt requestbits (INTREQ $dff09c) to Disabled: Done
    Set all DMA enablebits (DMACON $dff096) to Disabled: Done

Testing if OVL is working: OK
- Parallel Code $fe - Test UDS/LDS line
  - Test of writing word $FFFF to $400 OK
  - Test of writing word $00FF to $400 OK
  - Test of writing word $FF00 to $400 OK
  - Test of writing word $0000 to $400 OK
  - Test of writing byte (even) $ff to $400 OK
  - Test of writing byte (odd) $ff to $401 OK
- Parallel Code $fd - Start of chipmemdetection

Addr $001F8400   OK  Number of 32K blocks found: $40
Startaddr: $00000400  Endaddr: $001FFFFF
  - Fastmemcheck skipped as we found chipmem
- Parallel Code $fb - Memorydetection done

  Using $001ECCEA as start of workmem (Base)

- Parallel Code $fa - Starting to use detected memory

Testing if serial loopbackadapter is installed: <> NOT DETECTED
Detecting if we have a working raster: DETECTED
Detected Chipmem: 2048kB
Detected Motherboard Fastmem: 0kB
Basememory address: $001ECCEA
As a very fast test of variablearea working this SHOULD read OK: OK!
- Parallel Code $f9 - Detected memory in use, we now have a stack etc
 - Doing Initstuff
 - Setting up Chipmemdata
   - Copy Menu Copperlist from ROM to Chipmem
   - Copy ECS TestCopperlist from ROM to Chipmem
   - Copy ECS testCopperlist2 from ROM to Chipmem
   - Fixing Bitplane Pointers etc in Menu Copperlist
   - Copy Audio Data from ROM to Chipmem
   - Do final Bitplanedata in Menu Copperlist
 - Initstuff done!

    Set Start of copper (COP1LCH $dff080): Done
    Starting Copper (COPJMP1 $dff088): Done
    Set all DMA enablebits (DMACON $dff096) to Enabled: Done
    Set Beam Conter control register to 32 (PAL) (BEAMCON0 $dff1dc): Done
    Set POTGO to all OUTPUT ($FF00) (POTGO $dff034): Done
- Parallel Code $f8 - Starting up screen, text echoed to serialport
Amiga DiagROM V1.2.1 - 16-Jul-20  - By John (Chucky/The Gang) Hertell



Doing ROM Checksumtest: (64K blocks, Green OK, Red Failed)
$5A39AC3E $C5724DFE $7C779F2B $00000000 $00000000 $00000000 $00000000 $006C00


CPU: 68EC20 FPU: NONE  MMU: NOT CHECKED

Checking for fastmem
Pressing left mousebutton will cancel detection (if hanged)

Checking if a 24 Bit address cpu is used: YES
 - Checking for Memory in 24 Bit area (NON AUTOCONFIG)
 - Checking for Memory in Ranger or Fakefast area
Title: Re: Amiga 3000T need help troubleshooting
Post by: scuzzb494 on September 02, 2020, 05:21:42 PM
I had a very similar problem with my 4000T. Same issues. I swapped over the accelerator and that wasn't working. And then I noticed a dodgy ribbon connector. The thing fell apart in my hand. I replaced both the ribbon and the floppy drive and like magic the machine booted. I had changed the jumper setting to take the MKII and so flipped it back and refitted the PPC. The boot on the floppy had caused the issue and now the PPC was working and the whole thing sprang back to life. I know you have disconnected the floppy and hard drive but maybe you need one or tother to get the juices flowing. I sense this is a simple seating issue if you have the card connected and you may need some Brasso. Don't rule out a combination of issues though.

I hate towers by the way. It's a gravity thing. I have an A1200 in a tower and she works fine for a while and then she stops. Just like your 3000T. I swear that all I do is reconnect all the ribbons, press on the buffered interface, press the flicker fixer and reseat the Blizzard including the SIMM and she fires up first time no problem. Lasts a few months and then stops. I just press a few connectors and she springs back to life. Same with an Ateo Concepts 4000d in the tower. Seriously hate them. I've thought about lying them flat on their side... but they really are way too big.

I have two A3000T machines. Never use them. Just saying.