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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmigaOldskooler on July 10, 2019, 08:20:07 AM

Title: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on July 10, 2019, 08:20:07 AM
Hi everyone,

For quite some time I used a Philips Flat-screen CRT TV for my Amiga 1200. The image was very nice and I was happy with it. Unfortunately it developed a high squeeking sound (which only the rest of the family could hear - my hearing is apparantly not as good as it used to be, so I could not hear a thing) and stopped working properly. I'm now using an LCD TV and it is OK, but I miss the CRT, so thought I'd start looking around for a new one. With an RGB to SCART, using a CRT on the Amiga is a great experience in my opinion. :)

Anyway, I was wondering who else uses a CRT for their Amiga? If yes, what brand, size etc.? Any recommendations? :)
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: paul1981 on July 10, 2019, 10:40:33 AM
I still have my Microvitec 1438 and Philips 8833, but they are packed away in the loft due to space constraints. I have have two VGA monitors in the loft and a third that is in the junk room incase I need to hook up a motherboard to it or something. Also, I have a an old Hitachi portable colour TV in the junk room for attaching to my C64 to still check they're both working once in a while. Almost forgot about the old Ferguson black & white portable in the loft - that was what I used for the C64 up until 1990. It still works fine.

So the answer to your question is no, but only because I don't have the room to set them up!
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Brian Hoskins on July 10, 2019, 12:24:57 PM
Here's my take:

For Workbench and applications, an LCD monitor is prefferable to CRT because you get a sharper and more precise image on an LCD.  Especially compared to old CRTs (all CRTs are old now) which tend to suffer from a range of image geometry distortions.

For Games, Demos and a general retro experience then CRT is prefferable because it's far more 'forgiving' of the AMIGAs graphics capabilities than LCD.  In fact, I imagine that most games on the AMIGA are designed around the experience you get from a CRT screen.  Games definitely look better on CRT, there's no doubt about it.

In practice I use both.  On the CRT side I use an AMIGA technologies branded 1538.  This is an excellent little monitor because of its ability to multisync.  You can use it on the AMIGA native modes and also higher graphics modes on the Workbench, no problems.

I also have a Philips 8833, so my setup is very similar to Paul's.  But I tend to use my Philips monitor on my old Spectrum computers rather than the AMIGA.

I also have another CRT monitor, the model I can't quite recall (will have to check later) but it only just about syncs down to the AMIGA screen modes and I found that only the higher modes work on it so it's not that much use for gaming.  It's a lovely monitor with my graphics card in the A2000 though.

Paul's right, they do take up a lot of room.  Whether that's worth it or not depends on what you're doing with your AMIGA the most.

PS: I worry about keeping these old monitors in the attic on two fronts:

Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: tonyvdb on July 10, 2019, 09:50:33 PM
Ive used two different monitors with my Amiga's the 1080 and the 1960 the 1080 lasted for its lifetime and finally got rid of it a couple years back but the 1960 suffered the usual death that most did of the cold solder letting go at the rear of the tube and burning the circuit board. If you can find a working 1960 it was a good monitor for the Amiga.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: paul1981 on July 10, 2019, 11:06:20 PM

PS: I worry about keeping these old monitors in the attic on two fronts:

  • Previously I kept a monitor up there and it yellowed really badly.  I was under the impression that exposure to UV triggered this reaction but my monitor went yellow just by being stored in the attic in the dark! I wonder if the heat triggered it.  Not sure.  But ever since then I don't keep any AMIGA equipment in the attic.
  • It gets very hot in the attic, especially in the Summer.  And then it goes cool in the night.  So your equipment is going hot/cold/hot/cold all the time.  So I worry about the longevity of older equipment like this when subjected to that environment.  This is a worry that is born of personal feeling rather than direct experience of attic storage causing specific problems with my equipment.

There was a recent post on here regarding the yellowing of the someones's Apple Quadra (or whatever they're called) and there was a rusky chap I think who linked to some info about yellowing and it was quite interesting (required google translate) and it turns out even air alone can yellow some plastics. I never knew that, so perhaps that explains your case.
My monitors are in boxes and I think I put them in bags too and the boxes are taped, so pretty safe from dust. The biggest problem with the loft besides heat is moisture in there, but since we had four vents installed up there on both sides of the house (eight vents in total) then that problem has disappeared and all the cardboard boxes up there remain as dry as a bone. I have a load of floppy disks up there, but again I was careful to bag and pack them very well. I have tapes up there which aren't packed well at all (C64 and reel to reels) so I'm not sure how they'll be after all these years.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: golem on July 10, 2019, 11:18:03 PM
I'm using Philips 107P and 107B. I acquired them around 2005 I think. They are 17" CRT monitors designed for PC but they sync to the 1200 VGA modes (not PAL or 15kHz modes though) with straight through silver Commodore adaptor. I also have an Indivision and I have tried it with a modern flatscreen for Workbench but it was too unforgiving so I went back to the CRT. It is softer image and looks better to my eyes.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Darin on July 11, 2019, 05:11:09 PM
Yes, I still use CRT's with my Amigas for the most part.  I've got a couple 1084s monitors, a KDS 19" with component and VGA inputs, and a Samsung 19".  I have a 1950 in storage that has a flyback transformer issue.  One of my time depending project is to see if I can hook my systems up my 78" Samsung LED TV, I'm thinking that would be fun for games.

On the yellowing, I've found that heat does play a big role in the yellowing of plastics.  UV is also a significant contributor to yellowing on some plastics. 
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: tonyvdb on July 11, 2019, 08:25:32 PM
One of my time depending project is to see if I can hook my systems up my 78" Samsung LED TV, I'm thinking that would be fun for games.

I have a 120" fixed screen with projector and using the VGA input on the projector from the Indivison games look awesome on the big screen.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on July 13, 2019, 08:08:35 AM
Thanks for all the input guys. :) I found a free CRT TV which I'll be picking up today. It's a "Grundig" and it is 28", so quite larger than what I've used in the past. Think it should work nicely. :)
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Brian Hoskins on July 13, 2019, 08:15:41 AM
You won't get a great picture with a TV though.  Keep your eye out for a proper CRT monitor.

That 28" grundig would be a good platform for a full size arcade cabinet though.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: paul1981 on July 13, 2019, 11:49:15 AM
Thanks for all the input guys. :) I found a free CRT TV which I'll be picking up today. It's a "Grundig" and it is 28", so quite larger than what I've used in the past. Think it should work nicely. :)

It should be a very good picture if it has a SCART connection. You're gonna have lots of fun with that.  ;D
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on July 14, 2019, 02:45:46 PM
Picked up the TV. Weighed a ton. ;D Installed it and it powered up, but still emits that high frequency sound. Guess most old TV-s are like this? Since I can't hear the sound myself, it is hard to describe. Yes, I use an RGB to SCART cable. Gives a nice picture, and I love using it for watching demos and playing games.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: zipper on July 14, 2019, 04:53:34 PM
All tube receivers do emit 15625/15750 Hz sound. More or less.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Dynamic_Computing on July 14, 2019, 05:38:10 PM
I could not wait to get away from CRT Televisions on my computers in 1984, I sure don't want to use one now! I have a 1084, a 1902, a couple of 1702's and some LCD displays - no nostalgia at all for blurry CRT's. That's just me, though.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: giZmo350 on July 14, 2019, 05:44:52 PM
I could not wait to get away from CRT Televisions on my computers in 1984, I sure don't want to use one now! I have a 1084, a 1902, a couple of 1702's and some LCD displays - no nostalgia at all for blurry CRT's. That's just me, though.

I do, however, love my Commodore 2002 connected to my REV3 NTSC A500 when playing Indy500 and Flight Simulator!
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Brian Hoskins on July 14, 2019, 10:07:34 PM
powered up, but still emits that high frequency sound. Guess most old TV-s are like this?

The sound that your younger friends are complaining about is the line scan frequency.

If you are young you can hear it quite easily.

If you are old you can't hear it at all.

I guess that means you're old!
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: paul1981 on July 15, 2019, 10:13:07 AM
I could not wait to get away from CRT Televisions on my computers in 1984, I sure don't want to use one now! I have a 1084, a 1902, a couple of 1702's and some LCD displays - no nostalgia at all for blurry CRT's. That's just me, though.

There should be a pot on the rear or behind the rear cover for adjusting the focus (it's on the LOPT). You need a large mirror though ideally so can actually set it - especially on larger CRT's.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: spudmiga on July 16, 2019, 11:43:18 PM
I have used many CRTs - Commodore 1084S's of various models, Philips CM 8833 mk 1 & 2,
Today I am using a Amiga M1438S - for many at one point the holy grail of Amiga monitors along with its 17" bigger brother ( cannot remember the model number but would still love one)/
It is multisync but to my disappointment it is not anti-flicker, so for the nice interlaced modes I guess I will need to get a flickerfixer for it.

With regards to the high pitched sound - I think I know what you mean.
I would not really describe it as a squeal though, it is unfortunately the noise CRT displays make. Your family have probably forgotten but 20-25 years ago their TV's would have made exactly the same noise.
It is quiet and you do get used to it.

Out of all of the displays I have used - the top one for gaming hands down has to be the Philips CM 8833 mark 1.
The mark 2 is fine if you cannot get hold of a mark 1.
But the mark 1 - boy oh boy - the games look sure fantastic. The colours POP and look really vibrant. Amiga games really shine on this kind of display.
An advantage of the mark 1 over the mark 2 is you have SCART connectivity in the back - so if you like you can get a splitter and use it for several retro devices. I used a PlayStation and a Dreamcast with one for a while and it worked great. Do look out for common problems with them though - power switch failure is very common and the speakers tend to go on them.

If you are doing serious stuff with your Amiga then probably not the best choice - you would be better off with a 1438 or one of the higher specced Microvitec/Amiga badged monitors if you can find one, they are pretty rare now.

The Commodore monitors are okay - but not a patch on the Philips.I suspect the main reason a lot of people get them is for the name "COMMODORE" on it. Which makes sense I guess.
If you can find a multisync Commodore monitor that may be good, but I have never used one.

I agree with Brian Hoskins about getting a proper monitor.
You will see an increase in sharpness and image quality comparable to RF lead > Scart.

Games suck on LCD screens. I had one for a while with the Indivision flickerfixer.
Sure, Workbench looked nice with the non-flicker interlace modes, but the horrible artifacts, jagged edges on the games looked terrible which becomes more apparent if you have  a CRT available and compare the difference.
The old games wer designed and programmed on CRT's and thus look best on them.

There is the problem of them getting old now - which is a shame, but I will keep using mine for as long as I can.
A good Amiga compatible CRT monitor thankfully does come up on sites like eBay from time to time, at least in the UK.
And Amibay may be worth a shot too. I managed to get a good deal on a 1084S a couple of years back which was cheaper than eBay and that included shipping from the Netherlands.

Anyway I will stop rambling. I hope you enjoy your new TV, but do consider a dedicated monitor if it goes kaput.  ;D

Spud  8)
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Brian Hoskins on July 17, 2019, 06:35:03 PM
I could not wait to get away from CRT Televisions on my computers in 1984, I sure don't want to use one now! I have a 1084, a 1902, a couple of 1702's and some LCD displays - no nostalgia at all for blurry CRT's. That's just me, though.

These old monitors can fetch quite healthy prices on the retro computing market.  You could trade them on the market and use the proceeds to get some new AMIGA goodies.  A purchase that would fly under the radar at home  :-X
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Dynamic_Computing on July 17, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
I could not wait to get away from CRT Televisions on my computers in 1984, I sure don't want to use one now! I have a 1084, a 1902, a couple of 1702's and some LCD displays - no nostalgia at all for blurry CRT's. That's just me, though.

These old monitors can fetch quite healthy prices on the retro computing market.  You could trade them on the market and use the proceeds to get some new AMIGA goodies.  A purchase that would fly under the radar at home  :-X

You bet they could - but I love my Commodore monitors! I have a 1942 and I think a 1950 that I have to repair, too.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: Brian Hoskins on July 17, 2019, 09:35:46 PM
Quote from: Dynamic_Computing
You bet they could - but I love my Commodore monitors!

I thought you were saying you hated them, hence my suggestion.  But now I see you were only hating on the TV option.

I used a TV for my AMIGA screen for my entire childhood.  I was kind of OK with it until I went around my (richer) friend's house and he had a proper monitor on his A500.  All of a sudden I hated my TV.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: paul1981 on July 18, 2019, 05:10:26 PM
When I was a lad I used mine through the RF for a couple of years until I figured out what those phono connections were on the back of the tv. Even through the RF I used to use the 1280x512 interlaced Workbench with magenta coloured icons because I didn't know about the MagicWB palette. The composite video picture was quite an improvement. My tv didn't have scart.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: SHADES on August 22, 2019, 10:36:10 AM
God no.
Die CRT die!!

Seriously, grab a cheap scandoubler from eBay that can take the RGB output from your AMIGA and then LCD/OLED the whole way.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Arcade-Game-VGA-RGB-CGA-to-High-Definition-Multimedia-Interface-Converter-Board/293154447525?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D59538%26meid%3Dd1bd724ec94c479795ae6322becfea66%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26mehot%3Dsb%26sd%3D152510535611%26itm%3D293154447525%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

$10 cheaper if you want VGA
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: vince_6 on August 22, 2019, 11:03:58 AM
Always CRT for gaming.
Some 1084s, a philips and some TVs.
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: soviet on August 22, 2019, 06:24:59 PM
Using the amiga on an led tv get me the feeling of playing on an emulator.
crts all the way, they are free you can pic one every day from the trash is the best time to get some  :)
Title: Re: CRT TV's - Are you using one?
Post by: amigapassion on August 30, 2019, 03:22:23 PM
CRT is the only way to go IMO for anything pre 2000. for my Amiga CD32 and 500 I have a Sony 21" and the 500 has a Philips 8833 MK2, I also have a portable CRT TV for my Amiga test bench. LCD is far to sharp, there is no warmth or softness to the images...