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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS 4.x (future) Hardware Compatibility Discussions => Topic started by: AmigoSteve on September 28, 2014, 02:47:34 PM

Title: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: AmigoSteve on September 28, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
Hi everyone, wondering how the 460 owners are feeling out there. I have owned my 460 for well over 2 years and am beginning to get disillusioned by it.

The lack of warp3d is the biggest source of frustration. Especially as 440 owners are able to enjoy quake 2/3 et al as well as the newly released amazing voxel bird saga. Thellier does a great job with wazp3d but unfortunately I cant play voxel bird saga- through wazp3d, it has to be very small screen and after a few seconds play it crashes the computer.

I also have problems with the water effects in Hurrican, and colour issues with Aquaria, I get a blue screen once I get out of the house in Frogatto etc...

I have recently found that v1.0 of the radeon driver was released a few months ago but I have not been able to download it. I bought the driver licence but when i log in and try to download on the new site the download request is denied by the AMIstore server. Once downloaded we will still be waiting for Hyperion to pull their finger out.

I have spent thousands on the amiga over the past few years and if I want 3d I am sure I will have to spend much more on OS4.2.

I love the amiga but this is getting very painful, any help?
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Yasu on September 28, 2014, 03:30:35 PM
Well, MorphOS Team is working on a port to SAM 460 if that is of any interest :)
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: eliyahu on September 28, 2014, 03:37:37 PM
Quote from: AmigoSteve;774090
Hi everyone, wondering how the 460 owners are feeling out there. I have owned my 460 for well over 2 years and am beginning to get disillusioned by it.

The lack of warp3d is the biggest source of frustration. Especially as 440 owners are able to enjoy quake 2/3 et al as well as the newly released amazing voxel bird saga. Thellier does a great job with wazp3d but unfortunately I cant play voxel bird saga- through wazp3d, it has to be very small screen and after a few seconds play it crashes the computer.
i completely feel your pain. after several years of no 3D support whatsoever for the newer RadeonHD cards, it's getting absurd IMO. of course you can always use a 9250 or other older supported card in the PCI slot, but then you're forced to use the on-board SATA2 connection -- of which there is only one and DMA still isn't supported. technically the latter is up to acube since they wanted to develop the drivers rather have hyperion do it, but from a customer perspective, who cares?

it's nuts.

the good news is that A-EON can at least help you with your account issues so you can grab the latest 2D driver for which you paid. just send them an email. as for the rest of it, well, we're all in the same boat. :(

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: danwood on September 28, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
I can't be of help, but totally understand your pain.  Lack of full support and drivers was one of the main reasons (as well as cost) that I didn't replace my flaky A1XE with a 460 or X1000, instead I got a Mac Mini G4 then a G5 Power Mac and went the MorphOS route for a lot less money and with drivers for everything, even wifi.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: AmigoSteve on September 28, 2014, 04:00:37 PM
I am considering morphos, does it run on a g4 ibook?

I have tried putting a 9250 in the pci slot but cant get it to work. I suppose it is more complicated than just putting the card in. If anyone could help with how to install the card in a sam460 then please explain it to me as I have tried.

Oh and does anyone know how to get some of the games to work properly with the sam460, turrican, frogatto, hurrican etc... If so please help.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: AmigoSteve on September 28, 2014, 04:07:41 PM
sorry, meant to say Aquaria, frogatto, hurrican
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Yasu on September 28, 2014, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: AmigoSteve;774095
I am considering morphos, does it run on a g4 ibook?


Yep :)

http://www.morphos.de/hardware
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: amigakit on September 28, 2014, 04:19:44 PM
@AmigoSteve

Send me a quick pmail and I will check you details and get your account authorised for the new v1.0 driver.

As for Warp3D for RadeonHD, the good news is that it is running many 3D demos such as Gears etc, but there are still some bugs to fix.  Its a mammoth task given the poor documentation out there for RadeonHD cards, but we should have more news by Amiwest.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: eliyahu on September 28, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
Quote from: amigakit;774098
As for Warp3D for RadeonHD, the good news is that it is running many 3D demos such as Gears etc, but there are still some bugs to fix.  Its a mammoth task given the poor documentation out there for RadeonHD cards, but we should have more news by Amiwest.
that's terrific news, and i think the first official confirmation that the project has been picked back up again. splendid! :)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: AmigoSteve on September 28, 2014, 04:34:58 PM
Thank you. I will pmail you.

 When warp3d is finally here will it work with the 4000 series? A while back I heard these were not going to be supported. Would be strange if not because they came supplied with many sams.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Nicsoft on September 28, 2014, 04:53:49 PM
There is one thing, I just can't understand!

A majority (vast?),  among my Amiga friends uses "R700" (HD4000 series) Radeon cards in their  Sam 460:s. But A-EON seems to neglect us, focusing on the high-end  range of cards only. Strange...

http://www.a-eon.com/?news=20-10-2012
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: amigakit on September 28, 2014, 04:55:03 PM
Driver download authorised on your AMISphere account.  You will be able to use AMIStore to download it in future as well as the secure download area from A-EON's website.

Warp3D work is for 5000 and 6000 at the moment.  4000 series cards are really difficult to obtain so the priority is getting it running on the later models- a very challenging experience so far.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: AmigoSteve on September 28, 2014, 05:07:12 PM
Thank you. I am sure when warp3d does come out I will buy another card to make use of it.

 I imagine i will need to figure out where I have put my warp3d libs after renaming/replacing them for wazp3d. If not someone may have to help me out there.

Thanks again
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: BSzili on September 28, 2014, 06:05:13 PM
Quote from: amigakit;774102
Warp3D work is for 5000 and 6000 at the moment.  4000 series cards are really difficult to obtain so the priority is getting it running on the later models- a very challenging experience so far.
Are they? There seems to be plenty of HD 4000 series cards on eBay.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: tommysammy on September 28, 2014, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: amigakit;774098
@AmigoSteve

Send me a quick pmail and I will check you details and get your account authorised for the new v1.0 driver.

As for Warp3D for RadeonHD, the good news is that it is running many 3D demos such as Gears etc, but there are still some bugs to fix.  Its a mammoth task given the poor documentation out there for RadeonHD cards, but we should have more news by Amiwest.


That are great news. I thought, it was dead. I hope I can get it soon
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: kickstart on September 28, 2014, 06:46:59 PM
@amigosteve

Sorry for all your problems with this computer, i can understand you... just for curiosity, how many money spend on this computer?
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Jeff on September 28, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: tommysammy;774108
That are great news. I thought, it was dead. I hope I can get it soon


AmigaKit sorted my account out, authorized the download, and sent out the backup disc! Well done and thank you. I'm sure you will be sorted soon.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: yssing on September 28, 2014, 07:30:37 PM
@amigakit: That sounds like really good news. I am sure many people will appreciate it a lot :)

A 5000 series card is very cheap, so it whuld not be a problem to upgrade.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: F1Lupo on September 29, 2014, 12:24:47 AM
Quote from: amigakit;774098
@AmigoSteve
....
As for Warp3D for RadeonHD, the good news is that it is running many 3D demos such as Gears etc, but there are still some bugs to fix.  Its a mammoth task given the poor documentation out there for RadeonHD cards, but we should have more news by Amiwest.

THE MOST IMPORTANT UPDATE in OS4.x land is much awaited by all users and I understand the bohemoth task by Hans but also understand the frustration from fellow OS4.x users like AmigaSteve.

The sooner the better I say bugs et all.  Let users sign a potential risk form if necessary but I'm sure the more users testing it the better:hammer:
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Hans_ on September 29, 2014, 04:02:21 AM
Quote from: klx300r;774148
THE MOST IMPORTANT UPDATE in OS4.x land is much awaited by all users and I understand the bohemoth task by Hans but also understand the frustration from fellow OS4.x users like AmigaSteve.

Yes, it is frustrating, and I'm sorry that it has taken so long. Just to avoid confusion, I'm not the Hans that's working on the Warp3D driver. I did provide some assistance and example code, though.

Quote from: Nicsoft;774101
There is one thing, I just can't understand!

A majority (vast?),  among my Amiga friends uses "R700" (HD4000 series) Radeon cards in their  Sam 460:s. But A-EON seems to neglect us, focusing on the high-end  range of cards only. Strange...

When there's limited resources available and you can't do everything, then sometimes difficult decisions need to be made. I personally think that focusing on the 5xxx/6xxx series was the right decision. They had to choose one GPU series, and it would be unrealistic to expect Amiga dealers to scrounge around on ebay for supported cards to deliver to their customers.

Just one nitpicky correction though, the 5xxx/6xxx series are not higher-end than the 4xxx series; they are just newer generations. Granted, the high-end of each generation tends to be faster than the last. However, each series has both low and high-end cards. For example, my Radeon HD 4850 is a high-end card, and totally leaves my 5450 choking on its dust in any performance test. In fact, even my 4650 (a mid-range card) is faster than the 5450.

Hans
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: BSzili on September 29, 2014, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: Hans_;774152
When there's limited resources available and you can't do everything, then sometimes difficult decisions need to be made. I personally think that focusing on the 5xxx/6xxx series was the right decision.

That's perfectly understandable, and I agree with you.

Quote
They had to choose one GPU series, and it would be unrealistic to expect Amiga dealers to scrounge around on ebay for supported cards to deliver to their customers.

The discussion was about providing support for the existing userbase with Radeon HD 4000 cards, and not about dealers offering HD 4000 cards.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: wawrzon on September 29, 2014, 03:17:36 PM
Quote from: BSzili;774166
That's perfectly understandable, and I agree with you.


it is. less understandable is when the public is left in the dark about all development facts, except when someone finally complains, which is then an opportunity for some sudden and unexpected statement, like that the project has not actually been abandoned, and is very close to completion, which is usually followed by further years of silence and patient waiting.

if development state was honestly communicated the users could easier judge for themselves if it pays for them to invest in the system. must be the reason to keep it confidential and only now and then feed the public with small fragmentary teasers out of context.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Iggy on September 29, 2014, 03:37:41 PM
Personally, as the owner of two 4770 cards, I'd want to use one of those rather than invest in a 5000 series card.
I do have a 6970, but that is overkill for an Amigoid OS.

At this rate, we are likely to see Radeon 3D support on a SAM460 under MorphOS before AmigaOS support is ready.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: BSzili on September 29, 2014, 06:50:38 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;774168
it is. less understandable is when the public is left in the dark about all development facts, except when someone finally complains, which is then an opportunity for some sudden and unexpected statement, like that the project has not actually been abandoned, and is very close to completion, which is usually followed by further years of silence and patient waiting.
I was only referring to the lack of development resources being a valid explanation of why HD 4000 series cards aren't going to be supported vs. the supposed unattainability of these cards by the driver developers. I get why the users are upset about the situation, which is why I decided to comment on it in the first place.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: cgutjahr on September 29, 2014, 07:11:35 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;774168
if development state was honestly communicated the users could easier judge for themselves if it pays for them to invest in the system.

I'm with you on that one, of course - but asking a vendor to point out the (many) flaws in his product is a bit much, isn't it?

The more sensible approach would be to punish those community members who still help spreading the propaganda. We could start by taring and feathering anybody who's excited because Amigakit just announced an announcement.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: kickstart on September 29, 2014, 07:19:42 PM
Quote from: BSzili;774166
That's perfectly understandable, and I agree with you.


When someone pays for overpriced systems at least is necessary a good service.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Duce on September 29, 2014, 07:29:17 PM
Buy a newer series card off ebay for pocket change, likely your best bet.

Would I be ticked off if I bought a prebuilt OS4 machine with a 4000 series card in it, only to find out that I'm not going to ever get proper drivers for it?  Yes, I sure would be.

I would ask why vendors ever sold the things with those cards in the machines to begin with, and I'd never do business with them again.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: amigakit on September 29, 2014, 07:37:27 PM
@Duce

The original poster bought the system from ACube.  ACube has provided the original RadeonHD 2D driver and of course, it has been stated by Hyperion that AmigaOS 4.2 will have Gallium3D supporting the 4000 series and above.

The X1000 First Contact systems have only been shipped to customers with 5000 and 6000 series cards and this is the primary reason that A-EON commissioned the Warp3D driver for these cards.  Development for each series is expensive and time consuming.  It is better to concentrate on a set series of cards before embarking on other development work.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: BSzili on September 29, 2014, 07:47:08 PM
Quote from: kickstart;774185
When someone pays for overpriced systems at least is necessary a good service.
I don't know what have got into me, when I replied to this thread. I should have known that my words will be twisted into the exact opposite of what I've said (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=774180&postcount=24). I can't really blame anyone for getting caught in the crossfire. :hammer:
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Duce on September 29, 2014, 08:34:36 PM
Was full 3d support ever promised for the 4000 series cards?  If so, I hope those that bought such rigs with 4.1 get some sort of free upgrade to 4.2 where the hardware they purchased with the machines is actually fully supported.  I've always been very interested in the SAM 460, but I'll wait until MOS support comes to it to have the best of both worlds.  Are all the onboard chips on the X1000 and SAM460 now all supported without the need for add on cards?  Been curious about that lately as well, and the fact they weren't on the X1000 actually kept me from buying it.  I don't like buying things twice.

Otherwise it's like me buying a car with a sticker on it that says "this car is only designated for city usage, but a highway usage upgrade will be coming soon" and it never comes, lol.

All this, being said - you can still pick up a 5000 series ATI card for under $30 brand new.  I recently bought one for an older server I've got here for $29.99, in fact.  Passively cooled XFX 5450, and it works just great.

Thanks for the clarification, Amigakit.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Nicsoft on September 29, 2014, 08:55:45 PM
Quote from: amigakit;774192
@Duce

The original poster bought the system from ACube.  ACube has provided the original RadeonHD 2D driver and of course, it has been stated by Hyperion that AmigaOS 4.2 will have Gallium3D supporting the 4000 series and above.

The X1000 First Contact systems have only been shipped to customers with 5000 and 6000 series cards and this is the primary reason that A-EON commissioned the Warp3D driver for these cards.  Development for each series is expensive and time consuming.  It is better to concentrate on a set series of cards before embarking on other development work.

Can someone technically oriented (regarding drivers) explain the difference regarding Warp3D vs Gallium3D?

So that I'll know if an upgrade to a 5000 series card is needed...
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Hans_ on September 29, 2014, 09:40:55 PM
@BSzili
Quote from: BSzili;774166
The discussion was about providing support for the existing userbase with Radeon HD 4000 cards, and not about dealers offering HD 4000 cards.

In order to understand why things are the way they are it's necessary to take the blinders off and look at the wider picture.

@Duce
Quote from: Duce;774191
Would I be ticked off if I bought a prebuilt OS4 machine with a 4000 series card in it, only to find out that I'm not going to ever get proper drivers for it?  Yes, I sure would be.

I would ask why vendors ever sold the things with those cards in the machines to begin with, and I'd never do business with them again.

Back then, the 4xxx series was the only one supported. It was never the intention to not support the 4xxx series. AMD's pace of obsolescence is relentless, and that basically forced us to upgrade to the 5xxx+ series earlier than I had hoped.

For the record, Gallium3D should bring full 3D support for the 4xxx series. It's just that the 5xxx/6xxx Warp3D drivers will come sooner.

Quote from: Duce;774206
Was full 3d support ever promised for the 4000 series cards?  If so, I hope those that bought such rigs with 4.1 get some sort of free upgrade to 4.2 where the hardware they purchased with the machines is actually fully supported.

It's no secret that modern OpenGL 2+ was the goal for these cards. However, nobody was promised 3D support for free.

Hans
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: wawrzon on September 29, 2014, 09:51:49 PM
Quote from: Nicsoft;774213
Can someone technically oriented (regarding drivers) explain the difference regarding Warp3D vs Gallium3D?

So that I'll know if an upgrade to a 5000 series card is needed...

not that im oriented, but afaik gallium/mesa is an (up to date) opengl implementation providing an abstraction layer where different backends can be addressed. it can render in software as well as take advantage of an at hand hardware accelerated driver available for numerous models.

warp3d as a lower level 3d gfx standard with rather a limited set of features, since it originates from the last century when about opengl 3.x was standard. it is rather a question of legacy that it is being kept. there is a very limited number of by todays standards rather outdated software available for it.

both projects are two completely different issues. given the limited resources it is disputable if it makes so much sense to develop w3d standard further, instead opengl should be used, because it is still widely used in open source software that is the main source of software for ng-amigalike systems.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: woof on September 29, 2014, 09:55:18 PM
>Thellier does a great job with wazp3d
THANKS

>I also have problems with the water effects in Hurrican
Compositing CANT do all the "Blending" functions that Wazp3D got
It is only an a "aproximation" : compositing is NOT a true 3d driver
 
> I get a blue screen once I get out of the house in Frogatto
I had this bug too BUUT i remenber to have fixed it a long time ago ....
Do you use latest Wazp3D from Aminet and the Wazp3D.cfg config joined inside ?

>Can someone technically oriented (regarding drivers) explain the difference regarding Warp3D vs Gallium3D?

Those are both 3D drivers : some functions are almost the same like DrawArray that draw an array of triangles describing a 3d object

But Gallium3D use also new high level functions that use "shaders" so you can do more things (pixels effects but also space or lighting transformations)
But shaders are harder to set up for basic effects that are "builtin" in Warp3D (it is called a "Fixed Function Pipeline")

As Hans wrote Modern OpenGL 2+ need a driver with shaders

Gallium3D is open source and has been ported to Aros for years ....
Warp3D is closed source but is widespread in the Amiga world and as MiniGL/StormMesa (=OpenGL) use Warp3D it has become the de facto 3d driver for AmigaOses


Alain Thellier - Wazp3D Author
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: wawrzon on September 29, 2014, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Hans_;774229
However, nobody was promised 3D support for free.

Hans


were they not? i thought they were?
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: woof on September 29, 2014, 09:56:26 PM
>Thellier does a great job with wazp3d
THANKS

>I also have problems with the water effects in Hurrican
Compositing CANT do all the "Blending" functions that Wazp3D got
It is only an a "aproximation" : compositing is NOT a true 3d driver
 
> I get a blue screen once I get out of the house in Frogatto
I had this bug too BUUT i remenber to have fixed it a long time ago ....
Do you use latest Wazp3D from Aminet and the Wazp3D.cfg config joined inside ?

>Can someone technically oriented (regarding drivers) explain the difference regarding Warp3D vs Gallium3D?

Those are both 3D drivers : some functions are almost the same like DrawArray that draw an array of triangles describing a 3d object

But Gallium3D use also new high level functions that use "shaders" so you can do more things (pixels effects but also space or lighting transformations)
But shaders are harder to set up for basic effects that are "builtin" in Warp3D (it is called a "Fixed Function Pipeline")

As Hans wrote Modern OpenGL 2+ need a driver with shaders

Gallium3D is open source and has been ported to Aros for years ....
Warp3D is closed source but is widespread in the Amiga world and as MiniGL/StormMesa (=OpenGL) use Warp3D it has become the de facto 3d driver for AmigaOses


Alain Thellier - Wazp3D Author
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Hans_ on September 29, 2014, 10:09:17 PM
Quote from: Nicsoft;774213
Can someone technically oriented (regarding drivers) explain the difference regarding Warp3D vs Gallium3D?

So that I'll know if an upgrade to a 5000 series card is needed...


Warp3D is an old 3D API designed for AmigaOS way back in the late nineties. Given its age, it doesn't support modern graphics card features like programmable shaders. In fact, it doesn't even support hardware accelerated Transformation Clipping & Lighting (TCL). Combined with MiniGL it supports a subset of OpenGL up to about version 1.5 of the OpenGL specification. On the upside, it does work and is available for AmigaOS now (although the Evergreen driver for Radeon HD 5xxx/6xxx cards is yet to be released).

Gallium3D is a new modern framework for writing graphics drivers. It's designed to sit between the hardware and any 2D or 3D API (so, OpenGL, Direct2D/3D, etc.). Gallium3D's design is completely based around the modern GPU and its programmable shaders. Combined with MESA, it supports up to OpenGL 3.3 (depending on the driver). It really is a quantum leap ahead of Warp3D. Delivering modern OpenGL was the main reason why I started working on the 2D Radeon HD in the first place. Gallium3D's downside is that it is set for release in AmigaOS 4.2, and I cannot say when that will be.

So, your dilemma is, upgrade to a 5xxx/6xxx card for Warp3D, or wait until AmigaOS 4.2. Either way, you should probably wait until the Warp3D driver is actually released before deciding whether to buy a newer card or not.

Hans
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Hans_ on September 29, 2014, 10:21:45 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;774233
were they not? i thought they were?


Okay, I'm not 100% sure about that. A1-X1000 first contact customers may have been promised a free upgrade, but I can't find any announcement to back that up. I don't remember ACube ever promising anything, though.

Hans
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: ssolie on September 29, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
Quote from: Hans_;774239
Okay, I'm not 100% sure about that. A1-X1000 first contact customers may have been promised a free upgrade, but I can't find any announcement to back that up. I don't remember ACube ever promising anything, though.
Nobody has been promised any free upgrades for any 3D drivers that I'm aware of.

The only "free" license that has been promised is for X1000 First Contact customers. They all purchased a copy of 4.2 when they bought their machines. We shipped them a free license for 4.1 Update 6 in the mean time.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: cgutjahr on September 29, 2014, 11:28:18 PM
Quote from: ssolie;774242
The only "free" license that has been promised is for X1000 First Contact customers.

This sounds like there are "first contact" X1000 customers and other X1000 customers? Maybe this is just a language barrier thing, could you clarify?
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: amigakit on September 29, 2014, 11:41:38 PM
To clarify, all retail customers (non-beta) are X1000 First Contact - they received their system from the batches which started shipping to end users in January 2012 onwards.
Title: Re: Frustrated SAM460 owner
Post by: Nicsoft on September 29, 2014, 11:49:48 PM
Thank you ALL very much for explaining the Warp3D vs Gallium3D difference! :-)
I've  had a look at 5000 series cards now, and they are cheaper than my 4000  series card was, when I bought it in 2011! But still, the graphics isn't  the "weakest part" in my Sam460ex (at least) in my opinion.

And thank you Alain Thellier - Wazp3D Author
For giving me (us) 3D pre...