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Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS 4.x (future) Hardware Compatibility Discussions => Topic started by: ElPolloDiabl on July 22, 2013, 04:30:17 PM

Title: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 22, 2013, 04:30:17 PM
The criticism has become tiring.

A) Price. Can't be helped because it is made in small batches.
B) PowerPC vs other. As a hobby system I suppose it doesn't matter.
C) Drivers. Coming along, but most people who buy it don't seem to care.

Not a fan, because PowerPC has probably been replaced by ARM. I should just keep the hobby alive and not get bogged down in arguments.

  There is a large faction of people who remember Amithlon and know that you can use an x64 computer.
  There is another faction that like to take advantage of old hardware to run an Amiga compatible OS. You could quiet these down by porting to one of the old Macs.
  I'm not sure when the x64 faction will get what they want.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on July 22, 2013, 05:47:50 PM
This is supposed to be a forum for helping users of old computers.  The "bashing" in general was old as of day one, and has driven away many great members.  Good job, y'all.  :(
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 22, 2013, 05:57:54 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;741609
This is supposed to be a forum for helping users of old computers.  The "bashing" in general was old as of day one, and has driven away many great members.  Good job, y'all.  :(

I talked to a number of former amiga developers (one even warned me to start with it at all). That they "were driven away" was only partly because of red vs. blue (or any other colour) but because many disliked the strategy and the route was chosen (many were former AmigaOS developer and dropped it (and all other platforms) when their hardware died). So life is not that easy...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 22, 2013, 06:29:41 PM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;741599
The criticism has become tiring.

A) Price. Can't be helped because it is made in small batches.
B) PowerPC vs other. As a hobby system I suppose it doesn't matter.
C) Drivers. Coming along, but most people who buy it don't seem to care.

Not a fan, because PowerPC has probably been replaced by ARM. I should just keep the hobby alive and not get bogged down in arguments.

  There is a large faction of people who remember Amithlon and know that you can use an x64 computer.
  There is another faction that like to take advantage of old hardware to run an Amiga compatible OS. You could quiet these down by porting to one of the old Macs.
  I'm not sure when the x64 faction will get what they want.

People that buy X1000 know what they are buying, and they still do (like I will) just because that is the way to support OS and development. No matter how expensive, bad etc. it looks like MorphOS has no custom hardware anymore and AROS has luck of running on pretty anywhere. That make SAMs and A-EON products pritty much only Amigas in hardware sense, arguable, but as custom hardware built for AmigaOS, true.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 22, 2013, 07:08:46 PM
The incessantly negative attitude of many on A.org has definitely driven away a number of good members. If you look on places like AW.net where it's a much more friendly forum for all flavours, you'll probably find a number of members who used to frequent here.

Myself I hang around because I'm a fan of classic Amigas, and this is still the best place for that - I just wish there was more tolerance towards people who for whatever reason prefer AmigaOS4 to AROS or MOS for their NG kicks.

As it stands, it's not as bad right now as it used to be, but it's still pretty bad. As soon as I saw the thread about the X1000 (which is really good news as it allows a lot of people who want a top-end, purpose-built AmigaOS machine to get one - more Amigas, how can it be bad news?), I wondered how long it would be before someone unnecessarily posted a completely unhelpful, negative comment, and what was a really positive piece of news.

It was the third post.

Within the first five posts or so, someone had rated it with 1 star. Why? How can new hardware possibly be a BAD thing? If you don't want it - don't buy it.

I really wish this forum was truly open, but as long as there's this red vs. blue attitude, and as long as people fail to accept that their own choice may not equal somebody else's, it's not going to happen, and that's a real shame.

It would be so much nicer if people stuck to the "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" axiom.

Just my 2c (as someone who has every AmigaOS from 1.3 to 4.1, and also MOS and AROS)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: eliyahu on July 22, 2013, 08:49:14 PM
Quote from: spirantho;741622
The incessantly negative attitude of many on A.org has definitely driven away a number of good members. If you look on places like AW.net where it's a much more friendly forum for all flavours, you'll probably find a number of members who used to frequent here.

it's a tough balance, unfortunately. certainly people should be allowed to criticize developments they don't like, but i would hope at least coming from a constructive place. there is a difference between saying things like:

"the amigaone x1000 is way to expensive! and there are no drivers! no one in their right mind would buy this dreck."

... and:

"the amigaone x1000 is too expensive for me. maybe if the price point was under $1000, i could consider purchasing it. also, while i see some of the drivers have been finished, it's a shame that 3D support isn't there yet. i really would want to play 3D games on it if i bought it."

anyone see the difference? and then we get comments like "it sucks" which add nothing to the conversation. but mostly the issue isn't what is said, but why it is said and the fact that it is repeated in. every. single. thread. some folks don't care for the next-generation machines. ok, no problem. and some folks don't like AOS4. again, no problem. but if you're someone who hates both and keeps posting anything and everything negative about anything relating to either just because you think it makes your preferences look better, that's childish. and rude. and trolling.

and very, very off-putting. believe me: it does drive members away. :(

the mods do their best to keep things civil, and we ask that anytime you see something you think might violate amiga.org's terms of service, please, hit that report button. genuine (and constructive) criticism is not only fine, but welcome, but if you see trolling from the same usual suspects, try to ignore if you can and respond with positivity and civility. hopefully that will drive the trolls crazy enough to leave. heh.

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: NovaCoder on July 22, 2013, 11:52:03 PM
I think many classic users (like yours truly) are disappointed with the lack of progress/direction of OS4 development over the past few years and who also didn't agree with the X1000 'vision' from the beginning.   This lack of faith has been justified by the limited availability of the hardware, the cost of the hardware and how much work remains before OS4 can fully support all of it's hardware features (which let's face it, may never happen).

But in saying that, I realize that it's pointless to 'bash' the X1000, it is what it is and at least they tried to do something interesting.

If you've brought an X1000 and are happy with your purchase then good for you :)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 22, 2013, 11:57:36 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;741634
"the amigaone x1000 is too expensive for me. maybe if the price point was under $1000, i could consider purchasing it. also, while i see some of the drivers have been finished, it's a shame that 3D support isn't there yet. i really would want to play 3D games on it if i bought it."
-- eliyahu

Its easy to bash hardware that comes before software supports it, hope Hyperion will do OS 4.2 properly with Cyrus and stop that crazy idea in the future, so that argument is lost.

On side of price, there is quite cheap SAM 440 board as entry system. And its entry system that doesn`t provide much horsepower.

Under $1000 you can build a SAM 460 system that is quite capable and not so weak as cheaper of X1000. But limited in expandability and having same plague of no 3D drivers. But again, hope it will change soon.

So there are both entry and $1000 systems, so X1000 just can`t be it.
And I would first love if it was cheaper - just because my loan to bank would be lesser.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Madshib on July 23, 2013, 12:00:33 AM
I just mentioned something to this effect on the Yahoo Amiga forum I am a subscriber to. The computer is expensive, yes, but I have no experience with 4.1.

When my dad bought our A1000 in 85, it was 800 bucks with 512k, a 1010, and KS1.2. We didn't need the monitor as we were upgrading from a C64 and had a 1701. He was so excited about using Workbench and I was excited about playing Defender of the Crown and SDI. I was 7 years old and grew up with this machine and the subsequent upgrades that followed. Comparatively speaking though, it was the cheapest thing out there that did what it did(and still does for all the people I see on here with A1000s).

Now, in 2013, computer hardware is dirt cheap and nothing here seems truly "special" anymore. What remains special is the operating systems in which we function digitally. I'd like to try AOS4.1, but I can't justify the price for the machine that it is now developed for. I can still get my hands on a 3.1 machine though.

I just bought a used A1200 base for $150USD and am looking forward to building it up and start programming in C on this platform and for *nix, shortly after I relive some old teenage memories on the thing.

I guess my point is I'm trying to understand the new direction with the X1000 and it only seems to cater to people "in the know" with some serious dough.

I couldn't afford the A1200 back in 94, so I bought a new A600 with no regrets. nearly 20 years later, I have the 1200 I wanted and maybe in 15+ years I can pick up the X1000 when someone is selling one to buy their X4000.

Here's to hoping :drink:
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 12:01:31 AM
Quote from: NovaCoder;741651
I think many classic users (like yours truly) are disappointing with the lack of progress/direction of OS4 development over the past few years and who also didn't agree with the X1000 'vision' from the beginning.   This lack of faith has been justified by the limited availability of the hardware, the cost of the hardware and how much work remains before OS4 can fully support all of it's hardware features (which let's face it, may never happen).

But in saying that, I realize that it's pointless to 'bash' the X1000, it is what it is and at least they tried to do something interesting.

If you've brought an X1000 and are happy with your purchase then good for you :)

How come that at least I do witness:
- There are more hardware choices then ever before in AOS4 world
- There is way more dirrection with OS4 then in time Amiga Inc ruled its development
- Those who haven`t agree with X1000 vision, haven`t presenting any competing hardware, so they just disagree, their right not to be customers
- Time to support X1000 hardware is needed because its small team, but without new hardware to support new OS features would not have much point, so chicken or the egg ...
-  (which let's face it, may never happen) You really believe 2GB RAM Barrier, support for other core and 3D may never happen, even its all promised for OS 4.2?
- X1000 users complain almost none, they all say their AmigaOS 4 experience improved with it, as well as it can do a lot sadly under Linux for now
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: NovaCoder on July 23, 2013, 12:22:37 AM
Quote from: vox;741655
-  (which let's face it, may never happen) You really believe 2GB RAM Barrier, support for other core and 3D may never happen, even its all promised for OS 4.2?


Yep I think support for all of the X1000 features (dual core, 64bit, Xena, SATA etc) may never happen, would loved to be proved wrong of course.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 23, 2013, 12:39:49 AM
@vox
the critic at x1000 and the attempted aone xxx hardware line may be, say, "constructive" even from those who are not interested or not intending to buy one. a valid critic point is that it fragments the community even more at times where all attempt should be directed at consolidating it. producing expensive hardware, many cannot afford, drives people away if they are told they are not true amigans as long as they dont invest into it. introducing unique features on expensive systems that may lead to lack of compatibility with lower end systems is another dangerous move (think of xena as example) accidentally it has not got into effect until now, just because it has not taken off at all.

variety is a good thing and i applaud the idea of having more choice of hardware for whomever desires it (also x1k and the like). however there has to be some common denominator for the whole scene or at least notion towards it, instead of separatist tendencies to be observed now. the alternative being forced into something or excluded will not work out for the common good i fear.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Rob on July 23, 2013, 01:01:36 AM
Quote from: NovaCoder;741657
Yep I think support for all of the X1000 features (dual core, 64bit, Xena, SATA etc) may never happen, would loved to be proved wrong of course.


SATA was already supported when it shipped.  XMOS support is there also, it's just that no-one has done anything useful with it yet.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 01:10:44 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;741660
@vox
the critic at x1000 and the attempted aone xxx hardware line may be, say, "constructive" even from those who are not interested or not intending to buy one. a valid critic point is that it fragments the community even more at times where all attempt should be directed at consolidating it. producing expensive hardware, many cannot afford, drives people away if they are told they are not true amigans as long as they dont invest into it. introducing unique features on expensive systems that may lead to lack of compatibility with lower end systems is another dangerous move (think of xena as example) accidentally it has not got into effect until now, just because it has not taken off at all.

variety is a good thing and i applaud the idea of having more choice of hardware for whomever desires it (also x1k and the like). however there has to be some common denominator for the whole scene or at least notion towards it, instead of separatist tendencies to be observed now. the alternative being forced into something or excluded will not work out for the common good i fear.

Again, no one is saying someone using SAM 440 is NOT an Amigan - what a fake change of thesis.

There is no lack of compatibility with lower ends, they will just benefit less from new OS features (and thus may not all move to OS 4.2) and may find demanding apps like Libre or Timberwolf once done - slow but hopefully usable. But have lower alternatives surely in other apps.

I don`t see how X1000 makes further separation. Its like saying G5 support in MorphOS is further separation and not advancement.

It is biggest progress since it dictates new advanced features needed - 3D support for RadeonsHD had no meaning before SAM460, and so now SMP, breaking 2GB RAM barrier etc. And only Classic Blizzards could be left out (MorphOS did long time ago).

So I don`t see these as "valid criticism"
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 01:13:41 AM
Quote from: NovaCoder;741657
Yep I think support for all of the X1000 features (dual core, 64bit, Xena, SATA etc) may never happen, would loved to be proved wrong of course.
Xena and SATA is there, only 64 bit mode is not planned for now - since its not a real speed up and might be needed to brake 4GB barrier, which is not at plan now. But basic ones like dual core and RadeonHD 3D are, as you know, announced for OS 4.2. So that means you don`t believe there will be ever OS 4.2 such as promised, even with reported progress and license pre purchase of all X1000 users?

Weird. So if it happens will you buy me a case of beer from your region? :-) :hammer:
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: haywirepc on July 23, 2013, 02:13:17 AM
People pointing out that they disagree with spending 3,000$ for a computer thats missing drivers or that has components that are not even supported by the OS is not bashing, its just expressing an opinion some don't agree with.

You can drink the cool aid, but its still the truth that OS4 does not fully support the xena chip that was one justification for why the computer is or was so expensive. They might as well have just glued a mystery chip on the board and not even connected it for real, since years have gone by and still no one has shown os4 using this chip or the OS even supporting it in any meaningful way.

Hyperion has not said when or if the support will be there.

Hyperion has not said when the second core will be available for use.

Hyperion have not said when the drivers will be fully working.

People have a right to express their opinions without being labeled bashers for
doing so. If you drank the cool aid and can not even see why people are critical, then I feel sorry for you.

Its okay to be a dreamer, but just don't dream so much you lose sight of
reality entirely.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 02:19:54 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;741670
People pointing out that they disagree with spending 3,000$ for a computer thats missing drivers or that has components that are not even supported by the OS is not bashing, its just expressing an opinion some don't agree with.

You can drink the cool aid, but its still the truth that OS4 does not fully support the xena chip that was one justification for why the computer is or was so expensive. They might as well have just glued a mystery chip on the board and not even connected it for real, since years have gone by and still no one has shown os4 using this chip or the OS even supporting it in any meaningful way.

Hyperion has not said when or if the support will be there.

Hyperion has not said when the second core will be available for use.

Hyperion have not said when the drivers will be fully working.

People have a right to express their opinions without being labeled bashers for
doing so. If you drank the cool aid and can not even see why people are critical, then I feel sorry for you.

Its okay to be a dreamer, but just don't dream so much you lose sight of
reality entirely.

Its OK to be a critic, just don`t critise so much you lose sight of reality entirely.

You get AmigaOS 4.2 license with X1000, and as soon as its out for everybody its out for all X1000 users.

And you are just-not-up-to-date.
SATA and Audio drivers are out, only network remains onboard out of board components.

Dual core, 3D etc. is work in progress OS 4.2
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=863

XMOS Support
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=654

Just as an example, MorphOS faster, longer in development OS, with better development team
currently supports only single core on G5, 1GB RAM and no RadeonHD cards, and has no viable plans
when this will change.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: magnetic on July 23, 2013, 02:35:01 AM
Interesting poll. (for a change)

When a niche market product has a price that high its certainly subject to criticism.

I do agree with the OP abouts points A and B. Having said that

POINT C IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE.

And its not just drivers its the LACK OF SOFTWARE thats the real problem. I mean $3500 us you can have a system you can learn AE, FCP, or whatever pro software on and make a living.  So its pretty hard to justfiy the price. Thats why i'm glad it runs on my peg2.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Lurch on July 23, 2013, 05:10:12 AM
I have huge interest in OS4.x. But sinking nearly $3000 into it isn't an option, maybe if I won the local lotto ;-)

I will in future however look at buying a OS4.x setup and I've missed out some good bargains around the 300 GBP mark, I'd probably seriously look at swapping my A1200 goodies for a nice OS 4.X setup.

Although I do enjoy tinkering with the A1200 classic hardware.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: magnetic on July 23, 2013, 05:21:34 AM
Lurch

Get your self a second hand Pegasos 2 its probably the best os4 platform atm. And good price, plus you can run morphos as well as linux and macos 9 and X
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: XDelusion on July 23, 2013, 05:44:11 AM
I'm not sure why threads that are full of posts by people who want to voice their opinion get locked. Kinda defeats the point of having forums to discuss things in, regardless if they are of a positive or negative light.

 I enjoy reading experiences of people who have bought one and are happy, and of people who have issues with the hardware, and are skeptical.
 To censor all negative criticism, seems to me, a way to mislead the public. I want both sides, I want three or four sides, I want to know what others are thinking within the community too, this way I can kind of see how successful said hardware will be and is in relation to the future of Amiga OS and potential options for hardware to run it on.

 If all negative criticism is banned, censored, and so forth, then it would lead one to believe that everyone thinks this hardware is fantastic, or OS 4 is fantastic, etc. etc. etc. leaving us in a very unfair and unbalanced situation. Border line propaganda at that.

 I say unban the other post, get on with reality.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on July 23, 2013, 06:28:15 AM
I think AEON, as a company, is trying to get stuff sold.  They are following a dead-end track to the very end.  Once they get there I don't think there is a plan B to save their efforts.  I think Trevor Dickinson is making an honorable effort to try to push the plan A solution but there really isn't much of a market for PPC desktop computers as a whole nowadays.

When I found out that AmigaOS 4.x was going to stay PPC-only even though improved FPGA-based solutions started presenting themselves as a sequel to the Classic Amiga chipsets, I reverted to AmigaOS 3.x and started looking toward AROS as a solution for any next-generation style needs.  I especially value AROS 68k as a potential improvement over and above AmigaOS 3.x as I start adding features that the chipsets have that the OS never adequately supported.

My vote:  No.  Bashing the X1000 is justifiable given that the AmigaOS team will forever be understaffed due to being a commercial venture with a limited market.  Even the closed-source shareware route of MorphOS is of limited usefulness since it is PPC only and also understaffed (though MorphOS is faster than AmigaOS 4.x since MorphOS doesn't use interfaces in its shared libraries).

I think that the only hobby operating systems worth mentioning are AROS and Haiku.  AROS, because it is open-source, supports a number of processor architectures, and is largely self-supporting.  Also Haiku because it is multithreaded and pervasively object-oriented (not to mention largely open-source).  Both of those are fairly quick compared to modern commercial OSs on modern hardware.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Lurch on July 23, 2013, 06:47:48 AM
Quote from: magnetic;741678
Lurch

Get your self a second hand Pegasos 2 its probably the best os4 platform atm. And good price, plus you can run morphos as well as linux and macos 9 and X


Might do that, would be good to run multiple OS's. Then I could sell off the Power Mac :-)

Will keep a look out for a board, thanks Magnetic.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: magnetic;741672
Interesting poll. (for a change)
POINT C IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE.

And its not just drivers its the LACK OF SOFTWARE thats the real problem. I mean $3500 us you can have a system you can learn AE, FCP, or whatever pro software on and make a living.  So its pretty hard to justfiy the price. Thats why i'm glad it runs on my peg2.

Its the same software base as with all AOS4 systems. There are no new only X1000 apps, but most demanding can use extra horsepower (e.g. video encoding, Timberwolf, AmiCygnix ...).

Same situation, or almost the same, is on MorphOS / AROS market.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!

So are we gonna bash them to death, too?

Don‚t forget the current Classics software side (Aminet ...)

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!

I am glad Trevor started the software side on funding RadeonHD driver and LibreOffice. Major stepes once done. Deserves credit there in seeing what AOS needs.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 23, 2013, 08:35:40 AM
Eliyahu, I think you have your work cut out for you before this forum can be called truly welcoming for all AmigaOS users.

It's unbelievable... the thing that draws the most criticism on an Amiga forum, is when somebody releases a new top end AmigaOS machine.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;741683
I think AEON, as a company, is trying to get stuff sold.  They are following a dead-end track to the very end.  Once they get there I don't think there is a plan B to save their efforts.  I think Trevor Dickinson is making an honorable effort to try to push the plan A solution but there really isn't much of a market for PPC desktop computers as a whole nowadays.

I think that the only hobby operating systems worth mentioning are AROS and Haiku.  AROS, because it is open-source, supports a number of processor architectures, and is largely self-supporting.  Also Haiku because it is multithreaded and pervasively object-oriented (not to mention largely open-source).  Both of those are fairly quick compared to modern commercial OSs on modern hardware.

We (AOS4, MorphOS users) ARE the PPC Market.

Its good you will support 68k AROS. I like you having informed choice.

But I do feel AmigaOS 4 has reached quite few milestones, and needs to be supported. Specially when A-EON got involved. Trevor is quite decent and open fellow and pushes things forward. He is beside Acube only one.

Quote from: XDelusion;741679
If all negative criticism is banned, censored, and so forth, then it  would lead one to believe that everyone thinks this hardware is  fantastic, or OS 4 is fantastic, etc. etc. etc. leaving us in a very  unfair and unbalanced situation. Border line propaganda at that.

 I say unban the other post, get on with reality.

Agreed, but I do remember myself being banned for C-USA criticism on few boards ... and it did not lead to everyone believed hardware and software are great and well priced.

Its not that I am for banning, but for balance.

I do agree its demanding to have AmigaOS expensive and dedicated machine, but so was always. Same would be with FPGA 68k or MorphOS, leave AROS aside as able to run on 68k and PPC too.

In my experience it is expensive, but somehow cheaper or same as with high end in Commodore era - having in mind fact that I was much poorer at the time. And decided to go for X1000 instead of high end Mac, just because of there is some path of progress for AOS4 and I want to add my 2 cents (well, way more) to it.

@olaf
Quote
You sound like you are doing marketing for a oldtimer or a piece of art   (f.e. painting) in a auction. But we are talking not about collectors   items but about computers that are today normal for everyone. That is   what the X1000 has to compare with and there it is completely crazy   overprized. And when I hear that the successor (propably) is not (much)   cheaper and that another planned model even more expensive then it  looks  completely insane. It would not work in the 68k community, not in  AROS  nor MorphOS camp and for sure not in the "outside world" but only  in  AmigaOS camp where a couple of hundred user seem to buy everything  at  any price when it is running AmigaOS. The AmigaOS users are melk  cows  but they seem to be happy with it. I personal had hoped that  Trevor  would invest his money to go in the opposite direction (cheaper  options  to get a bigger community) but it seems not. In the AROS world  people  are working on cheap options like ARM-based devices so I hope  this will  succeed.

Well X1000 can compete with existing market its on - I find it valuable and expandable enough to pay quite huge difference from similarly speced SAM 460. Yes, AmigaOne wasn`t cheap original, SAMs were neither for their perforance levels, but neither were Pegs2 or PPC Macs when they were new. It wasn`t such an extreme as X1000, but yet Trevor explained PA Semi alone costs 500-900$ now, and that they haven`t pushed the price up but rendered their profit margin down (no matter how strange that looks) to have X1000 sold some more.

In the end it will be limited series First Contact that was able to push AmigaOS 4 beyond. Kind of what top level G5 Macs are today.

ARM AROS sounds nice, but yet it will be 2nd or 3rd or 4th os on ARM based devices, just like it is with x86. I don`t see e.g. devoted AresOne line being cheap x86 selling in thousands.

Having choices of your own doesn`t negate ability of others to have choices, just like introducing right to someone else doesn`t
necessarily hurt right of your own.

So this kind of X1000 hate, was never before seen when e.g. Pegasos or MorphOS hardware was introduced.

remember there were long and dark time with no HARDWARE at all. Yes, now those who want AOS4, like I do, have to pay for custom hardware.

Would I be happier with Moana? Probably. But I do see that A-EON is doing something for that small AOS4 community and find it sad that its more bashed then leeches like C-USA / Roberto.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: ciento on July 23, 2013, 08:49:05 AM
Quote from: XDelusion;741679
I'm not sure why threads that are full of posts by people who want to voice their opinion get locked.

(We can't be trusted, to stop reading boring repetitive flamefests
on our own, or skip posts that are rants, and move on to ones
of interest. )

moderator's note: this post has been edited removing content of a false and libelous nature. for future reference, please see our posting guidelines, specifically:
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Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Crumb on July 23, 2013, 09:35:51 AM
Quote from: vox;741689
Same situation, or almost the same, is on MorphOS / AROS market.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFORGIVABLE!


Your comparison is flawed as the difference is that a few weeks ago I bought a cute 12" iBook G4/1.33Ghz with shipping included for 80€, that's pocket money I can use to "play" with my favourite OS and no wife/gf will complain about that. Do you think spending 80€ is the same as spending 1000, 2000 or 3000€?

If you put in the comparison AROS it's even more favourable for AROS as you can run Windows natively on it to do "serious stuff".

Quote
So are we gonna bash them to death, too?


You could but spending 80€ on a toy is not the same as spending 2000€. If you don't own an  x1000 you are validating my point.

Quote
I am glad Trevor started the software side on funding RadeonHD driver and LibreOffice. Major stepes once done. Deserves credit there in seeing what AOS needs.


Trevor efforts are important but keep in mind a RadeonHD driver is almost useless without 3D&Video acceleration (read: there's no much noticeable difference in 2D with let's say a R9800).

All in all. I don't think it's bashing, it's frustration from the Amiga community seeing that OS4.x Team is heading their favourite OS to disaster.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 23, 2013, 09:39:04 AM
Quote from: vox;741663
Again, no one is saying someone using SAM 440 is NOT an Amigan - what a fake change of thesis.

...

I don`t see how X1000 makes further separation. Its like saying G5 support in MorphOS is further separation and not advancement.

...

So I don`t see these as "valid criticism"


you dont grasp the nuance or i am perhaps not deliberate about it. and please don mix morphos into it, they are actually (same as aros) providing a support for wide choice of mostly affordable hardware and i have never heard of morphos user or developer leaving the scene because he could not afford or justify the expenses to stay involved. on os4 this is definitely the case, it really takes dedication to stay with the platform. and this singling out only most dedicated and wealthiest as worthy members of the community instead to trying to spread the interest, gain young blood, seek to attract talented contributors not just some reach collectors is the mistake i talk about.

beyond that supporting multiple platforms with a single common effort (like aros does) is the actual contribution to variety of the community, instead of singling out just one of them, referring to it as only true superlative, and portraying the investment into it as only essential way to support the "amiga". and this is the other critic point.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: spirantho;741690
Eliyahu, I think you have your work cut out for you before this forum can be called truly welcoming for all AmigaOS users.

It's unbelievable... the thing that draws the most criticism on an Amiga forum, is when somebody releases a new top end AmigaOS machine.

It is the strategy that is critisized. And censoring everything will not solve anything. You cannot censor what people think and you cannot censor what people outside think. As soon as "Amigians" (AmigaOS user) get out and try to "sell" it they will get the same questions and wondering. And if they have no persuasive answers they will fail to win any new users. Or are the AmigaOS people happy with the situation?

What I "bashed" (I did not do that) was building new high-end (or better high-price) machines. I understood to a certain degree why Trevor created the X1000 (even though I personal think that "custom" systems have no chance in todays world) but why these two new machines? One as a replacement for X1000 (from comments it seems similar priced) and a new even more expensive. It would have made sense to offer a more advanced system in the midrange and a new better entry system and of course something for mobile but two new high-price systems? Amiga was a affordable good system at its time but now it is almost unpayable for most users. I think it is the completely wrong direction. To critisize that is valid. And as I said I talked to a number of ex-amiga developers (mostly former AmigaOS developers) and there was the red vs. blue bashing and similar only one reason, more important was that they lost trust in the future.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 09:52:02 AM
Quote from: Crumb;741696
Your comparison is flawed as the difference is that a few weeks ago I bought a cute 12" iBook G4/1.33Ghz with shipping included for 80€, that's pocket money I can use to "play" with my favourite OS and no wife/gf will complain about that. Do you think spending 80€ is the same as spending 1000, 2000 or 3000€?

If you put in the comparison AROS it's even more favourable for AROS as you can run Windows natively on it to do "serious stuff".

You could but spending 80€ on a toy is not the same as spending 2000€. If you don't own an  x1000 you are validating my point.

I do intend to do "serious stuff" (which in my job is word processing and excel) in Linux PPC on X1000 so its not fun only. But I do feel joy for its ability to boot AmigaOS, and look forward to see OS 4.2 and beyond using it more and more. Its great Trevor provided proper Linux support.

So validity is only price? x86 and PPC Mac users back in days must be all mad then :-)

Good. I can`t get PPC Macs on such low prices in this part of Europe, where they are still considered fetish and niche hardware. Surely its not the same, but I again do buy one computer.

Again, why paying 110$ for MorphOS when you had perfectly usable MacOS X or Linux PPC on same hardware - using the kind of logic what you are software wise able to do. So you have more for OS then for hardware box. Its different demonstration of logic why I and some people have decided to go X1000 - we will pay sacrifice for hardware price to drive software development, while you kind of did other way around. You payed for OS more then for hardware even it was kind of un-necessary for "serious bussiness"


Not saying that is a bad strategy since Genesi left - but Hyperion simply did not choose the same. As PPC Macs market slowly dissappears, MorphOS team will need to find next target. I am very glad for SAM 460 port of MorphOS and looking forward to see it at DJ Nicks machine.

My own parallel is: I could never afford BlizzardPPC or A4000 back in the days, I am happy that, with much sacrifice, I can afford X1000 now.

Just waiting for X1000 to be assembled and shipped, as sig says. Its paid.

Quote from: Crumb;741696
Trevor efforts are important but keep in mind a RadeonHD driver is almost useless without 3D&Video acceleration (read: there's no much noticeable difference in 2D with let's say a R9800).

All in all. I don't think it's bashing, it's frustration from the Amiga community seeing that OS4.x Team is heading their favorite OS to disaster.

One in all, its a biggest step forward (what A-EON is doing) for AOS4 alone since original port and old A1 board. Why don`t I feel disaster you are predicting? Making PPC hardware possible, no matter the price, I do see as an achievement, as well as development for it.


Quote from: wawrzon;741697
you dont grasp the nuance or i am perhaps not deliberate about it. and please don mix morphos into it, they are actually (same as aros) providing a support for wide choice of mostly affordable hardware and i have never heard of morphos user or developer leaving the scene because he could not afford or justify the expenses to stay involved. on os4 this is definitely the case, it really takes dedication to stay with the platform. and this singling out only most dedicated and wealthiest as worthy members of the community instead to trying to spread the interest, gain young blood, seek to attract talented contributors not just some reach collectors is the mistake i talk about.

beyond that supporting multiple platforms with a single common effort (like aros does) is the actual contribution to variety of the community, instead of singling out just one of them, referring to it as only true superlative, and portraying the investment into it as only essential way to support the "amiga". and this is the other critic point.

Way better explained now.

I agree such strategy will not bring young blood, and I do disapprove level of stopping criticism by real users at Hyperions support forum. Things get locked so easily. Its better to have it then not to have it, but again questions raised there are by customers / registered users. Its not like C-USA with complete therads dissapearing, but is not a good strategy too.

As you do know, Acube provides nice entry system SAM 440. There are even loaner boards avail. I don`t know how many developers left specifically because of X1000 (please let me know who) because of frustration of not being able to pay for X1000. If I can manage a debt with 600EUR salary, I doub`t its impossible for people living in richer countries.

However, Trevor has provided some high end solution and software development and deserves credit for it. Not everyboody has a high end PC, or a Mac too. I have spend all the Classic days with A1200 020/28 FPU FAST RAM and didn`t just left it because I couldn`t get A4000.

Having new high end system usualy makes more affordable older boards on sale, so its not just loose-loose, it can be win-win
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 23, 2013, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;741698
It is the strategy that is critisized. And censoring everything will not solve anything. You cannot censor what people think and you cannot censor what people outside think. As soon as "Amigians" (AmigaOS user) get out and try to "sell" it they will get the same questions and wondering. And if they have no persuasive answers they will fail to win any new users. Or are the AmigaOS people happy with the situation?


I take your point, but I fail to see why people feel the need to criticise the strategy EVERY TIME OS4 is mentioned. An announcement of new stock of the X1000 is not the place for criticism of strategy.

Quote

What I "bashed" (I did not do that) was building new high-end (or better high-price) machines. I understood to a certain degree why Trevor created the X1000 (even though I personal think that "custom" systems have no chance in todays world) but why these two new machines? One as a replacement for X1000 (from comments it seems similar priced) and a new even more expensive. It would have made sense to offer a more advanced system in the midrange and a new better entry system and of course something for mobile but two new high-price systems? Amiga was a affordable good system at its time but now it is almost unpayable for most users. I think it is the completely wrong direction. To critisize that is valid. And as I said I talked to a number of ex-amiga developers (mostly former AmigaOS developers) and there was the red vs. blue bashing and similar only one reason, more important was that they lost trust in the future.


The high-end machine isn't for everyone, nor is it meant to be. There was a gap in the market for high-end, high-dollar AmigaOS computers. Trevor filled that gap.

I really can't see how that can be a bad thing. It's not like they stopped producing SAMs when the X1000 appeared - then I could understand people's frustration. But now you can get a nice little OS4 machine for not very much (certainly less than the original A500 in 1987), so what harm is there in producing the X1000? Why does it need to be yelled at every time it's mentioned? If you don't like it, that's fine - but people shouldn't keep repeating the same (usually false) arguments in threads that are announcements. Sure, open a different thread entitled "Is the X1000 a waste of money" or something - no problem with that. But this was a thread announcing the availability of them, and immediately the same old criticisms (some valid, some not) get wheeled out to rain on their parade.

It would just be so nice if the nay-sayers would let the people who choose to use AOS 4 celebrate good information without others trying to ruin it.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 23, 2013, 10:09:44 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;741599
A) Price.
B) PowerPC vs other.
C) Drivers.


I think it's the above that turns people off, rather than discussions. People who hoped for some kind of future involving expansion of the user base, easily realize when looking at contents of the above quote that there can't be no future; that with this chosen route there is no hope, no possible chance of expansion. This is what driving people away, the fact that it's nothing but a waste of time, better do something else. Wanting to discuss it is only natural, you want to express your views to others with the hope of the people in charge will change their ways, start thinking differently and going in the opposite direction (Of course it's just another let-down when those people instead of changing their strategy, just continues the spiral downwards by giving more of exactly the same instead of something different, but that's another matter). Discussions is what a discussion board like this is for, but all people don't like all discussions, all people doesn't always agree, that's only natural in a pluralistic, open and free world, there is nothing bad in that, and if there is a thread or post you don't like, simply jump past the post or leave the thread altogether. It's really as simple as that.

Starting meta-discussions like this thread is not a solution and it's rather an ugly thing to do because the sole purpose is to try to narrow down "allowed" views, "allowed" subjects, and "allowed" opinions. Who are YOU to tell others what to think, what to feel, and what to say? Why should YOU (or ANYONE for that matter) dictate what opinions and subjects should be allowed, and what not? This is the only purpose this thread has. And this is bad IMO. Not being able to talk freely in a discussion forum will only drive people away to a place where this freedom is allowed.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: yssing on July 23, 2013, 10:11:33 AM
I think a lot of you should read the latest interview with Trevor, the driver thing is explained there.

Regarding the price of the x1000 system, yes it is a bit pricy, but really classic users pay good money for old and used hardware, so its nothing new.

Besides, its not like new macs are cheap either, and they are basically just your ordinary household PC.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 10:18:08 AM
To not further derail X1000 threads (or similar) I have created this thread for general discussions:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65503
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 23, 2013, 10:22:40 AM
@ TakeMeHomeGrandma above

I did not want to start a discussion. I was tired of people hijacking the
Amiga x1000 announcements. Those users should have some safe ground where they are free from abuse.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 23, 2013, 10:35:35 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;741710
free from abuse.


OMG! "Abuse"?!
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;741703
I think it's the above that turns people off, rather than discussions. People who hoped for some kind of future involving expansion of the user base, easily realize when looking at contents of the above quote that there can't be no future; that with this chosen route there is no hope, no possible chance of expansion. This is what driving people away, the fact that it's nothing but a waste of time, better do something else.


Apart from cheaper hardware, situation with MorphOS (and to some extent AROS) is similar. Action to change situation is way better then moaning, and that is what Trevor does. There are few people doing something to make things better and deserve a credit.

Quote
but all people don't like all discussions, all people doesn't always agree, that's only natural in a pluralistic, open and free world, there is nothing bad in that, and if there is a thread or post you don't like, simply jump past the post or leave the thread altogether. It's really as simple as that.


Where is pluralistic, open and free world, please let me know. Its quite an illusion on Internet, as well as in capitalism. Not to mention in communism.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 23, 2013, 11:35:43 AM
The X1000 is poorly implemented and overpriced. How can one dare charge that amount of money for a prototype (especially when it is still not fully functional)

Secondly, how is Raspberry Pi Foundation able to turn out computers for under US$50, yet we have not seen a similar priced native compatible Amiga 4.x system
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 23, 2013, 12:06:52 PM
Quote from: vox;741720
Apart from cheaper hardware, situation with MorphOS is similar.


Of course MorphOS is also a niche OS developed at a Hobby basis with a tiny user base, but MorphOS is still being actively developed and AFAIK there is actually a plan to migrate to a better platform/ISA and to introduce modern OS features, etc.

Quote
Action to change situation is way better then moaning, and that is what Trevor does.


The X1000 probably pushed away more people than anything else in modern Amiga times (because of the points outlined in the OP). It was supposed to be the future of OS4, but when it turned out to be nothing but a poorly supported $3,000+ machine with 2005 level performance that never even was released in a proper way, then it suddenly became obvious to everyone that the plan had failed, that any hope of a future is gone. Had Trevor simply been sitting on his ass doing nothing, there would indeed have been one less motherboard for OS4 users to choose from, but there would probably have been more people hanging around now and at least still dreaming of a future. The X1000 was a dreamkiller, an eyeopener, it cracked open the protective little Amiga bubble and let in the cold breeze of 2013 realism into the red/white checkered fuzzy dreamworld. This caused many to wake up, look around, and say to themselves "what the hell am I still doing here"?

The problem isn't discussions or "negativity", the problem is:

   A) Price.
B) PowerPC vs other.
C) Drivers.


(I suppose you could add a D) Modern OS Features to this as well...?)

IMHO of course!

;)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: yssing on July 23, 2013, 12:13:31 PM
TMGHM , do you know that for a fact, or are you just being, well you, and trying your best to bash the x1000.

I am very sure that the x1000 did not push people away, I actually believe it did quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: NovaCoder on July 23, 2013, 12:27:42 PM
Quote from: yssing;741733
I am very sure that the x1000 did not push people away, I actually believe it did quite the opposite.


I think it did push some people away, I was one of them :)

I was waiting to see what would be announced after Hyperion won their long running legal battle with Amiga Inc and was at that point considering buying into OS4.   When Hyperion's big plan turned out to be the X1000 launch, I lost interest in OS4 and decided to stick with classics instead.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 23, 2013, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: NovaCoder;741734
I think it did push some people away, I was one of them :)

I was waiting to see what would be announced after Hyperion won their long running legal battle with Amiga Inc and was at that point considering buying into OS4.   When Hyperion's big plan turned out to be the X1000 launch, I lost interest in OS4 and decided to stick with classics instead.


Indeed!

But at least you are still around!

:)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: eliyahu on July 23, 2013, 12:51:07 PM
@thread

there are many good examples of genuine, well-considered criticism in this thread. good. that's healthy. there's also some trolling. that's not so good.

when you criticize, please use facts. also please avoid using insulting phrases like insinuating people who disagree with you are "drinking the kool-aid." oh, and making things up completely is not on.

but other than that, have at it. no one is trying to prevent opinions from being shared. just the trolling. :)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: yssing on July 23, 2013, 12:52:39 PM
NovaCoder, and it a shame it pushed you away. The classic does benefit a lot from your work though :)

But as Trevor said, the x1000 sold more than 200 but less than 2000, one can only speculate on the numbers actually sold, but it does confirm that the user base is a lot bigger than the handfull of users here on amiga.org
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 12:55:17 PM
Quote from: yssing;741742
NovaCoder, and it a shame it pushed you away. The classic does benefit a lot from your work though :)

But as Trevor said, the x1000 sold more than 200 but less than 2000, one can only speculate on the numbers actually sold, but it does confirm that the user base is a lot bigger than the handfull of users here on amiga.org

a couple of hundred propably (what is much for the limited AmigaOS community and the high price)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 01:13:51 PM
Quote from: Megamig;741723
The X1000 is poorly implemented and overpriced. How can one dare charge that amount of money for a prototype (especially when it is still not fully functional)

Hardware is fully functional and its not a prototype.
Fact that OS 4.1 does not support all its features (but Linux does) is well known. Having it out now is better then waiting 2014 or so for OS 4.2 to be out. As well as you get license for OS 4.2

Quote
Secondly, how is Raspberry Pi Foundation able to turn out computers for under US$50, yet we have not seen a similar priced native compatible Amiga 4.x system

It was a great kickstarter that have made them buy at huge quantities of anyway relativly cheap ARM hardware. So they were kind of prepaid. It is entirely different to risk your own (A-EON) money to build and sell something in small batches of 10-100 pieces with extremely expensive CPU.

Quote from: NovaCoder;741734
I think it did push some people away, I was one of them :)
I was waiting to see what would be announced after Hyperion won their long running legal battle with Amiga Inc and was at that point considering buying into OS4.   When Hyperion's big plan turned out to be the X1000 launch, I lost interest in OS4 and decided to stick with classics instead.

They announced new partners and OS development. What is so bad? SAM 460 appeared, you could get that. I don`t understand how new expensive hardware (while lower end and middle SAMs avail) is to be blamed with your disappointed in Hyperion overall. Not to mention Amiga Inc did also promised cheaper ACK hardware that newer appeared. I do feel new breeze after the court case and au contraire, that has made me wish to support it even more. So A-EON could also positivly influence the situation.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;741730
Of course MorphOS is also a niche OS developed at a Hobby basis with a tiny user base, but MorphOS is still being actively developed and AFAIK there is actually a plan to migrate to a better platform/ISA and to introduce modern OS features, etc.

Everything is the same, beside Hyperion considering PPC to be a modern platform. Apart from announcement, we know even less of MorphOS migration then of AMP/SMP/multicore on OS 4.2. If we take X2000 as better platform/ISA you could just substitute MorphOS in your lines with AOS4.

And going x86 is not magic solution: it would probably like with Macs work on very few boards as there would be inability to support all board chipsets, gfx cards etc. so situation would be kind of similar, apart from cheaper and more powerful hardware. But I am honestly willing to bet AOS 4.2 would come faster then x86 MorphOS.

Quote
It was supposed to be the future of OS4, but when it turned out to be nothing but a poorly supported $3,000+ machine with 2005 level performance that never even was released in a proper way, then it suddenly became obvious to everyone that the plan had failed, that any hope of a future is gone.

No, to me, X1000 is success as high end model that provided platform to develop experience to make X2000. It would be availiable more time if it wasn`t using mythical PA Semi which will be corrected with X2000.

Its just showed how much AOS 4 has to go forward, and it pushed and made possible to develop more modern drivers and features. How do you think that could happen without having such high end?

And what happened to Pre/Box on MOS (as its real modern features part) - it just shifted to ABox x86. I could aslo call that a major failure of plans.

Its simply as small pond as it is where things don`t happen fast. But with A-EON, I see things delivered. Only Hyperion side I could wish is doing more progress, but again, have seen more updates in past two years then ever before. That is not a failure, but a progress. I do also wish to AROS and MorphOS.

And we don`t go around bitchin how poor support is for G5 Mac (which is about as much as OS 4.1.6 supports X1000)

Quote
Because this is one of the few last remaining myths/lies from Hyperion that is now unfolding and being revealed. SMP can't be done without breaking AMIGA, it's as simple as that. But Hyperion said it could, and they sold machines, dreams and hope based on this, collected money, used this as a false spec in dirty competition, etc. That's why this is important.

We ll see how multi core would be implemented in OS 4.2. Personally, I would be satisfied by using parallel processing of having one box (app or even Linux inside AOS4) per CPU.

Hardware is not falsely specified. It works under Linux, because AOS 4.1.6, just like MorphOS is single core OS currently.

And again, similar thing is what happened to Pre/Box on MorphOS? OS does not aim to AmigaOS compatibility and original goal was SMP. When it will come for G5 Macs? Will be at least any use of second core? To me its about as same promise that has somehow dissapeared - sandboxing that would enable use of cores. Even that is step forward for OSs that use just one CPU.

What is dirty competition for you? In such a small pond?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 01:28:47 PM
"AOS 4.2 would come faster then x86 MorphOS."

Assuming that it will need years for MorphOS to make the shift to a new platform it is a easy bet :-)

The disappointment was because people expected Hyperion to drop PPC and go to new and more powerful hardware (X86/X64), instead the X1000 was announced who is again years behind competition (except price-wise). So it was clear that there will be no (or at least only few) new users and that thicks in the niche it is in. Perhaps people had more expectations and thought after the court settling that all what was hindering Hyperion is out of the way and they announce a new great strategy. And when this not happened they dropped the platform. Most stayed till their hardware died.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;741753
"AOS 4.2 would come faster then x86 MorphOS."

Assuming that it will need years for MorphOS to make the shift to a new platform it is a easy bet :-)

The disappointment was because people expected Hyperion to drop PPC and go to new and more powerful hardware (X86/X64), instead the X1000 was announced who is again years behind competition (except price-wise). So it was clear that there will be no (or at least only few) new users and that thicks in the niche it is in. Perhaps people had more expectations and thought after the court settling that all what was hindering Hyperion is out of the way and they announce a new great strategy. And when this not happened they dropped the platform. Most stayed till their hardware died.


They could at least have SAM. So its not X1000 to be blamed per se, but Hyperions choice.

OK. But seeing that x86 transition might take years, I take staying PPC and developing OS also as a valid choice. And don`t feel bad about since I am used to having dedicated Amiga machine. Being second or third OS on an x86 machine will not bring a world conquest - look at AROS. I could really bitch about the price (because with it goes a bank debt that increases it even more) but I take it as consciouss choice that SAMs are quirky and limited in many ways and that is what I wanted as platform for current AmigaOS 4.1 and its development.

If you take x86 AmigaOS4 dream as quite an illusion (based on what?) I do feel much progress. I didn`t even expect support for high end RadeonsHD and port of Libre Office - but I do understand that as way to modernity.

Surely, Hyperion judges what is possible on their current resources, as well as MorphOS and AROS teams.

My own dream of AmigaOS 5 that would be (kind of as Amiga Inc TAO promised) CPU independent running on both PPC and x86 and ARM, while being based on look and feel of OS4, MOS and AROS, is just my dream. But it doesn`t mean I will not support what is on the table.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 02:08:51 PM
Quote from: vox;741757
They could at least have SAM. So its not X1000 to be blamed per se, but Hyperions choice.

OK. But seeing that x86 transition might take years, I take staying PPC and developing OS also as a valid choice. And don`t feel bad about since I am used to having dedicated Amiga machine. Being second or third OS on an x86 machine will not bring a world conquest - look at AROS. I could really bitch about the price (because with it goes a bank debt that increases it even more) but I take it as consciouss choice that SAMs are quirky and limited in many ways and that is what I wanted as platform for current AmigaOS 4.1 and its development.

If you take x86 AmigaOS4 dream as quite an illusion (based on what?) I do feel much progress. I didn`t even expect support for high end RadeonsHD and port of Libre Office - but I do understand that as way to modernity.

Surely, Hyperion judges what is possible on their current resources, as well as MorphOS and AROS teams.

My own dream of AmigaOS 5 that would be (kind of as Amiga Inc TAO promised) CPU independent running on both PPC and x86 and ARM, while being based on look and feel of OS4, MOS and AROS, is just my dream. But it doesn`t mean I will not support what is on the table.

I had the idea that MorphOS and AROS would have a common infrastructure (API, USB, PCI and so on) and tried to discuss it with MorphOS developers and do not think there is interest. With Ben H. it is not even possible to discuss (partly because threads fast derail and get into a big bashing). And in the last months I had sneak peak into some of the differences. If you only dig a little you immdediately see lots of differences how things are implemented, parameters and how it all behaves. To have a common "API" (or similar) it would mean all parties would have to make a lot of compromises, drop own ideas and so on. I do not see any realistic chance for it (even it would be good in economic sense). It would have been good if all camps would have sit on a table and agreed on common standards and APIs (with exact definitions). But that was not the case.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: kickstart on July 23, 2013, 02:49:12 PM
Change the thread name, there is not any amiga called x1000.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: cgutjahr on July 23, 2013, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: spirantho;741702
I fail to see why people feel the need to criticise the strategy EVERY TIME OS4 is mentioned.

This argument cuts both ways. There's a large group of people that keep criticising the X1000 every time it is mentioned, but there's an equally large group of people who dismiss every form of criticism as hate-mongering by blue trolls and insist that every thing is perfectly fine and only child molesters would ever claim otherwise.

As for why people keep criticising - I can only tell you why I keep criticising:

Hyperion and A-EON keep abusing the AMIGA trademark - or rather, due to lack of a proper license, the  "AMIGAsomething" trademark - to sell substandard, half finished products. I call that abuse.

They don't even bother to do proper PR anymore, they simply rely on their remaining user base to buy whatever it gets served. Questions about yesterdays announcements and promises are either dodged ("I don't like the term SMP anyway"), not answered "because of the trolls" or simply ignored. And, as a long-standing tradition in the OS4 camp, problems are either denied or downplayed ("I can play video just fine"). At the same time, gullible users are encouraged to buy a $4000 computer that doesn't even do DMA properly. I'm too polite to tell you what I call that.

OS4 used to be a very thrilling and promising project once, but they (i.e. the handfull of people that haven't been driven away by management yet) hit a dead end. Instead of admitting that and trying to figure out how to solve the problem, they simply invented the "we're AMIGA, and at least we're trying" defense - and they get away with it, because people are so loyal to the brand and/or product they have a hard time imagining that whoever's raping the brand this week can be that short sighted or deluded.

These days, the Amiga name is used to earn 7000 Euro with a half-assed and mostly unusable browser port, to get a free $800 computer for designing some skins or to sell a piece of 2005 hardware at 1985 prices and actually make people pay upfront. That kind of stuff pisses me off.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Erol on July 23, 2013, 03:20:15 PM
Can I just step in and just say something... I agree with everyone comments as they all have merits on here, its an open discussion so I'm not bashing anyone just wanted to add my comments and agree with VOX whole heatedly.

A-EON  have a backlog of orders which means they cannot make enough X1000 quickly to meet the demand,  this was mentioned in PC Magazine interview with Trevor.
So we can be thankful there is a demand for a new Amiga, it's a step forward!

Right now for some history lessons in prices...

When the first A1000 came out it was a new machine which cost $1,595 USD (complete machine)
When Acorn released the ARM computer that cost depending on model between £650 ($987) for the A3000,  the A5000 was $2279 dollars (£1500)

Now bigger the orders the cheaper the prices drops..  A500 sold original at £499 ($765) more if you wanted memory.
Commodore managed to drop the price down to £399 ($612) and with the launch of the A500+ deal bundles got lower,  I remember buying an A500 for £239.. which was insane for that time..  demand was high causing prices to drop.

Apple III cost $7,800
Apple (first) macintosh cost $2,495


Do we see a pattern emerging.


iPhone5 costs £529  $811 for a phone... but remember its ARM which is cheap cause they in everything from tablets to washing machines and Apple is a big $ company.


Now PowerPC chips are expensive hence (one reason) why Apple dropped PowerPC chipset to move to intel.  
Sony dropped the PowerPC chipset in the PS4 moving to AMD reasons may have been cost but we were told it was hard to port games from PC to PS3.


The Amiga is in a transition phase, this means if we all want to see the Amiga survive as a platform OS we need to accept variety its what helped Linux community grow and Amiga needs to follow the same path Linux and Apple.  


Considering how custom the machine is, the price is justified because A-EON have to make a profit they are dealing with suppliers whom are willing to help the Amiga community unfortunately that comes at a price.  They are a private company not a billion dollar company,  Parts are only cheap when you buy/sell in large quantities.


Now to finish i want to say that 2 years ago I sold my Amiga Technologies A4000T with PPC Cyberstorm card (top of the range), Mediator board lots of extra cards and other bits.  That sold to a scientist in Germany for £5000k..  Yes £5k..

Now if the X1000 is overpriced then a Sam board or an X500 are available, there is plenty of choice out there..
I do feel that it is an exciting time now for the Amiga community there a lot happening.

Lets all share the Amiga.. and spread the word on all social media sites..    networking and sharing with love please!

And we're lucky to still have an Amiga Magazine 'Amiga Future'   I think the name says it all.. lets look forward to a future with the Amiga.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: ciento on July 23, 2013, 03:22:37 PM
Quote from: ciento;741692
(We can't be trusted, to stop reading boring repetitive flamefests
on our own, or skip posts that are rants, and move on to ones
of interest. )

moderator's note: this post has been edited removing content of a false and libelous nature. for future reference, please see our posting guidelines, specifically:     Posts of a libellous nature are not allowed.
Everyone  has a right to their own opinion, whether you think it right or wrong.  Posting false information about an individual is not only bad form, but  could become a serious problem, both for the poster, and for Amiga.org  itself.
this is completely unacceptable here and we have zero tolerance for it. any repeat of this will result in posting restrictions. this is your only warning.
Everyone who has been to Ami-West knows full well that every
'camp' is represented, and everyone has great fun. My post was
an obvious joke, pointing out the absurdity of over-moderating
the communications of grownups. I don't expext moderators
to be perfect, but don't accuse me of saying libelous things,
when you simply took offense to my criticism.

 The person I responded to, was discussing heavy handed moderation,
and I merely agreed, illustrating it with the obvious absurdity, which is
also a tribute to how good natured this community really is. I'm
assuming you've been to at least one Ami-West, and actually
know of what I speak.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: eliyahu on July 23, 2013, 03:28:06 PM
@ciento

sorry about that. i didn't know you were joking. when you talked about fistfights and brawls at the show, i thought you were trying to serious suggest those things actually happened.

in the future a quick PM to me will solve the matter. :)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: cgutjahr;741770

These days, the Amiga name is used to earn 7000 Euro with a half-assed and mostly unusable browser port, to get a free $800 computer for designing some skins or to sell a piece of 2005 hardware at 1985 prices and actually make people pay upfront. That kind of stuff pisses me off.


Wow. What would you think of C=USA and Roberto if you judge TW bounty, DJ Nick and A-EON A1 X1000 harshly.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 03:52:52 PM
Quote from: vox;741775
Wow. What would you think of C=USA and Roberto if you judge TW bounty, DJ Nick and A-EON A1 X1000 harshly.

Better do not ask :laugh1:
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 04:13:05 PM
I'd like to see MorphOS running on the X1000, but is Trevor willing to pay the MOS-Team a proper fee to port it rather than just offer them a motherboard and hope they'll do it for free?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 04:18:34 PM
Quote from: yssing;741733
TMGHM , do you know that for a fact, or are you just being, well you, and trying your best to bash the x1000.

I am very sure that the x1000 did not push people away, I actually believe it did quite the opposite.


It pushed me away into the loving arms of MorphOS 3.2 on a PowerBook.

Hyperion could quite easily port OS4 to Mac hardware but for reasons only known to themselves they choose not to.

And before anyone starts with the BS excuse that they are legally bound to only support AmigaONE branded hardware I will point you to the Pegasos II and ACube SAM ports. Neither of those platforms are legally AmigaONE branded hardware.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: number6 on July 23, 2013, 04:37:38 PM
Quote from: nicholas;741786
It pushed me away into the loving arms of MorphOS 3.2 on a PowerBook.

Hyperion could quite easily port OS4 to Mac hardware but for reasons only known to themselves they choose not to.

And before anyone starts with the BS excuse that they are legally bound to only support AmigaONE branded hardware I will point you to the Pegasos II and ACube SAM ports. Neither of those platforms are legally AmigaONE branded hardware.



All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".
One must protect the branding you know by using it.

Regardless, "they" have two h/w developers to consider now, and making such a decision would obviously affect them.

#6
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Crumb on July 23, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
Quote from: vox;741701
I do intend to do "serious stuff" (which in my job is word processing and excel) in Linux PPC on X1000 so its not fun only. But I do feel joy for its ability to boot AmigaOS, and look forward to see OS 4.2 and beyond using it more and more. Its great Trevor provided proper Linux support.


If I wanted to run Linux I could do it on any x86-64 machine and it would be various times faster and better supported. Most of insteresting software runs on Windows. LinuxPPC would be my last choice if I wanted to run Linux. Even ARM distros are better supported.

Quote

So validity is only price? x86 and PPC Mac users back in days must be all mad then :-)


The relationship price/features has always been much better on x86/Mac even brand new because software base and speed compared to competition is superior.

x1000 cpu power is poor compared to nowadays cpus, software is poor too (even if you take into account Linux) and price is too expensive. In contrast, let's say you spent the same quantity on a Mac or PC. speed would be blazing fast, software support would be great and price at least would be balanced to features. Spot the difference? I haven't even talked about boards breaking and finding replacements easily.

Quote
Good. I can`t get PPC Macs on such low prices in this part of Europe, where they are still considered fetish and niche hardware. Surely its not the same, but I again do buy one computer.


And spending 2500€ on a slow&rare&expensive board is easier?

Quote
Again, why paying 110$ for MorphOS when you had perfectly usable MacOS X or Linux PPC on same hardware


Because for that low price I can have a nice amiga experience easily, it's peanuts compared to 2500€. If I used Amiga OSes as rarely as some OS4 vocal supporters do (heck! some of them don't even use it) I could even live with the 30 minute limit :-D

If Mac hardware was a problem I could rely on AROS or UAE in the worst case.

There's nothing "custom" about x1000 or PPC Macs, these are just standard boards with PPC chip. IMHO Amigas were custom hardware, Dracos, x1000, AmigaOne or PPC Macs were not. BTW: I don't care about using "custom" hardware or not, but there's no single chip specifically designed for x1000 (like Agnus, Denise, Paula or Gary were) so it's quite funny some people insist on calling x1000 "custom hardware".

Quote
- using the kind of logic what you are software wise able to do. So you have more for OS then for hardware box. Its different demonstration of logic why I and some people have decided to go X1000 - we will pay sacrifice for hardware price to drive software development, while you kind of did other way around. You payed for OS more then for hardware even it was kind of un-necessary for "serious bussiness"


I don't buy smoke so I pay for using the software I like right now, limited or not, I pay a small quantity of money and I enjoy it right now "as is", without hoping/wishing/dreaming about the future. If MorphOS stopped being developed tomorrow I would still enjoy my machine and my software. And when AROS became more mature I would probably use AROS. But there's nothing fancy about a standard PPC board released in prototype-like numbers sold for a expensive price as a donlge to run one of the incarnations of my favourite OS.

If you set the price so high you reduce the number of possible users and buying more expensive hardware doesn't help. Did AmigaOne SE, XE, uA1, Sam440, Sam460, x1000 help to lower the prices of hardware? no, they didn't. In fact the relationship price/features is much much much worse now than when A1 was released.

Quote

Not saying that is a bad strategy since Genesi left - but Hyperion simply did not choose the same. As PPC Macs market slowly dissappears, MorphOS team will need to find next target. I am very glad for SAM 460 port of MorphOS and looking forward to see it at DJ Nicks machine.


Supporting Sam460 is a waste of time if you ask me, I would prefer that effort going to adding more features to the OS.

Quote

My own parallel is: I could never afford BlizzardPPC or A4000 back in the days, I am happy that, with much sacrifice, I can afford X1000 now.


"Amigas" (even thought we are talking about an "AmigaONE" and not an "Amiga") were never as expensive as now and never had so poor relationchip between price and features. When Classic miggies were released these had good price/features ratio, it could be better or worse compared to PC/Mac but now it's way far behind.

Quote

Just waiting for X1000 to be assembled and shipped, as sig says. Its paid.


Enjoy it, most of people who wants to try out OS4.x can't.

Quote

One in all, its a biggest step forward (what A-EON is doing) for AOS4 alone since original port and old A1 board.


In which sense it is different? I see history repeating and the situation is even worse now than with A1 because price is various times more expensive.

Quote
Why don`t I feel disaster you are predicting? Making PPC hardware possible, no matter the price, I do see as an achievement, as well as development for it.

Perhaps you are overoptimistic. think about how many classic users you knew and think about how many of them would spend 2500€ let alone 1000€ on Amiga with the available software and the poor features of the OS...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: AmigaNG on July 23, 2013, 05:59:57 PM
I just think its a shame that some people take posts and message far to seriously and then the opposite some people dont think really about how some of there comments are not really helpful but just bashing or go to far. That has really hurt the amiga community more so on this web site than others and I think it was partly due to lack of mods.

X1000 has it fair share of problems its true but it amazed me that in 2011 I was able to get a new Amiga feeling something I didn't get when I tried Aros on my net book and dont think I would of got that feeling buying a second hand mac,  I think it was the fact that this was a custom all in one machine and for that it was worth every penny, to others it may not be there idea/vision of what a new amiga should be and I completely understand that but to them I say try not to spoil our fun.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 06:06:33 PM
Quote from: number6;741788
All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".
One must protect the branding you know by using it.

Regardless, "they" have two h/w developers to consider now, and making such a decision would obviously affect them.

#6

Twaddle.

they are cutting their noses off to spite their face.  They have lost many many sales by not porting to Mac hardware.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 23, 2013, 06:55:05 PM
Quote

All of that was prior to the importance of branding being stressed.
After your examples they rebranded Sam460 as "Amigaone 500".

pretty late awakening..;) must be someone poked at their back and asked why "amigaos" isnt running on "amigas". alas, as that nick was taken..
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Fats on July 23, 2013, 07:03:44 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;741670
People pointing out that they disagree with spending 3,000$ for a computer thats missing drivers or that has components that are not even supported by the OS is not bashing, its just expressing an opinion some don't agree with.


I becomes bashing if they make a sport of it to have it posted as high as possible in every OS4 related thread. Why can't these people just focus on what they like and have to focus on what they don't like ?
I read aorg daily and already know for months you, TMHGM, OlafS3 & co. won't buy an AEon machine. Why do you have to always repeat it ?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 23, 2013, 07:34:11 PM
@fats:
hmm, maybe im recalling wrong, but werent you once playing with an idea of getting an x1k?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 23, 2013, 08:15:25 PM
Quote from: Crumb;741789
If I wanted to run Linux I could do it on any x86-64 machine and it would be various times faster and better supported. Most of insteresting software runs on Windows. LinuxPPC would be my last choice if I wanted to run Linux. Even ARM distros are better supported.

Gladly there are Debian, Mint and Ubuntu that do quite well PPC support. I am not arguing ability of Linux to be run almost on anything, but I am arguing your past point that X1000 is merely just a toy. On Windows subject, yes, no one can beat its pro software except MacOS X.

Quote
The relationship price/features has always been much better on x86/Mac  even brand new because software base and speed compared to competition  is superior.

I am not sure because for same money you can get 2-3 times faster x86 that can have all the same software in Windows even better performance in Linux compared to Linux on Mac x86. When AMD beats Intel in same cash category, Wintel combo beasts MacOS X way more. But OS is charming and easy and Mac is prestigious. Here you pay just  hipster bonus that is not reality based.

Point was its not always a price/performance that is determining factor. Also, if Apple was so kind to try to take over the world, they would open MacOS X to as many x86 boards and cards by encouraging devs to do drivers and selling just the software. But they don`t and do kind of Hyperion thing, just on x86. Earning on hw-sw combo. Just on way bigger market and with way better OS.


Quote
Spot the difference? I haven't even talked about boards breaking and finding replacements easily.

Quite aware of these risks, but you should better ever not see how much Apple charges once warranty is out.

Quote
And spending 2500€ on a slow&rare&expensive board is easier?

Its way more harder, including bank debt interest, but is way to support AmigaOS growing more mature and watching it grow.


Quote
Because for that low price I can have a nice amiga experience easily,  it's peanuts compared to 2500€. If I used Amiga OSes as rarely as some  OS4 vocal supporters do (heck! some of them don't even use it) I could  even live with the 30 minute limit :-D

I ll try to do as much job and fun as software allows I to.


Quote
There's nothing "custom" about x1000 or PPC Macs, these are just  standard boards with PPC chip. IMHO Amigas were custom hardware, Dracos,  x1000, AmigaOne or PPC Macs were not. BTW: I don't care about using  "custom" hardware or not, but there's no single chip specifically  designed for x1000 (like Agnus, Denise, Paula or Gary were) so it's  quite funny some people insist on calling x1000 "custom hardware".

Well PCI and PCI-E bus are standards and no one is reinventing the wheel. Dracos were quite custom thing au contrare, in old school sense. But X1000 is quite custom considering beside Acube there are no other PPC boards on sale. When I today say custom I think of new design, that haven`t existed before and not reselling some one elses designs.
In those terms x86 Macs are not a custom hardware, but X1000 is.
XMOS was nice try to have that old school spirit.

I was thinking of old school custom thing, but designing new graphics and audio chips with major players is simply waste of time. And PCs won and were competative just because more choices were avail for PCI slots then Zorro expansions, even Amiga bus was clever, good and offered many expansions. So nothing wrong there, not to mention big Amigas in the past also had ISA slots, beside Zorro.

Quote
But there's nothing fancy about a standard PPC board released in  prototype-like numbers sold for a expensive price as a donlge to run one  of the incarnations of my favourite OS.

Oh its quite fancy just because of things mentioned as well as nice Fractal Design case :-) And same, expect extreme small numbers, could e.g. define Pegasos board.

Quote
If you set the price so high you reduce the number of possible users and  buying more expensive hardware doesn't help. Did AmigaOne SE, XE, uA1,  Sam440, Sam460, x1000 help to lower the prices of hardware? no, they  didn't. In fact the relationship price/features is much much much worse  now than when A1 was released.

I believe A1 was done in higher quantity then any of those. Amiga market did shirink in dark age WHEN THERE WAS NO HARDWARE.

Now bitchin is because its expensive. Its hard to keep people happy,
Surely if there are more Amigans, hardware would be cheaper, and if hardware would be cheaper if there were more Amigans. But its not an easy spell to brake.

Quote
Supporting Sam460 is a waste of time if you ask me, I would prefer that effort going to adding more features to the OS.

People do deserve their board well supported, and some of things like RadeonHD 3D driver should be an OS feature.


Quote
"Amigas" (even thought we are talking about an "AmigaONE" and not an  "Amiga") were never as expensive as now and never had so poor  relationchip between price and features. When Classic miggies were  released these had good price/features ratio, it could be better or  worse compared to PC/Mac but now it's way far behind.

There is a bit illusion: similar situation was about time of A1200/4000/CD32. It only worsen when market shrinked. To me, AmigaOne is Amiga successor.

Quote
Enjoy it, most of people who wants to try out OS4.x can't.

Thanks. They should go for SAM 440.

Quote
Perhaps you are overoptimistic. think about how many classic users you knew and think about how many of them would spend 2500€ let alone 1000€ on Amiga with the available software and the poor features of the OS...

They already did that in OS 3.1 times. But its their own money and desision. I see no other alternative to go forward except to support what is on the table, and hope in the end it will lead to well developed OS with some usable apps, and if and when possible cheaper hw and more users. Meanwhile, it is what it is, I don`t try to negate that, but to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: yssing on July 23, 2013, 09:26:33 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;741753
The disappointment was because people expected Hyperion to drop PPC and go to new and more powerful hardware (X86/X64),


Who expected that to happen?
Hyperion have stated time and time again, that a port to X86 is not going to happen.
So if any one got disappointed, then they must be living in an other world.

If they want some form of aos for x86, they can use aros or uae, or maybe persuade morphos developers to port that to x86 rather than depend on old macs.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: yssing on July 23, 2013, 09:33:30 PM
Quote from: nicholas;741801
Twaddle.

they are cutting their noses off to spite their face.  They have lost many many sales by not porting to Mac hardware.


Do you have some real facts, some real numbers or are you just speculating?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 10:06:36 PM
Quote from: yssing;741835
Do you have some real facts, some real numbers or are you just speculating?


Personal experience. I know at least 30 people who would buy OS4 if it were available for Mac hardware, myself included.

I know of at least two of the OS4 developers that would like to see it ported to Mac hardware but he who must be obeyed Herr Fuhrer Hermans says no.

What is he afraid of? Could it be that people might compare it unfavorably to MorphOS on the same hardware and refrain from purchasing it?

Capitalism is all about risk. No risk, no win.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Crumb on July 23, 2013, 10:33:32 PM
Quote from: vox;741825

Oh its quite fancy just because of things mentioned as well as nice Fractal Design case :-) And same, expect extreme small numbers, could e.g. define Pegasos board.


Pegasos was an old PPC board released many years ago that costed half the price of a Mac Mini and offered decent performance playing videos and amiga stuff. It was slow but not as slow as sams or x1000 is compare to competition. There was even a G4 version. It's funn you ask because taking into account all that Sam boards (and its specs and price) you could define Pegasos as "a futuristic computer released almost a decade before of its time" (lol).

Don't you think it's sad that a computer released in prototype-like numbers ten years ago is both faster and cheaper than the ones released now (supposedly) to replace it?

Sam boards are both expensive&slow.

The best solution would be releasing OS4.x for existing Macs PPC (at least powerbook!) for those rare and weird users like me who don't mind using old computers and keeping the releases for those brand new computers OS4 lovers love. Selling 2000 OS4.x PPC Mac version to Amiga users will probably help to fund the development.

PPC is a dead end, it's ok to use it until OS4.x is ported to other architecture but it's a dead end after all and spending time supporting rare&expensive boards won't help to expand OS4 user base nor fund development. They should port it to Mac Mini for example and focus on improving the OS instead of supporting new boards released in a few hundreds.

Anyway I think we are going off topic, I just was explaining that it's not senseless bashing, that most users are angry&sad with Hyperion for their (Not very clever) hardware decissions.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 23, 2013, 10:41:23 PM
I think I can speak for a few others. I was hoping Amiga could return to a Linux level of usability. It probably won't happen. The largest group of users are here for nostalgia or as a hobby.
If the pressure is off for a grand Amiga return (not going to happen) there won't be as many arguments.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 23, 2013, 10:41:32 PM
Quote from: nicholas;741845

I know of at least two of the OS4 developers that would like to see it ported to Mac hardware but he who must be obeyed Herr Fuhrer Hermans says no.


I'm invoking Godwin's Law here! :)

There are many good reasons for why they didn't support the Mac, and it's been covered at length before.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 23, 2013, 11:07:45 PM
Quote from: spirantho;741856
I'm invoking Godwin's Law here! :)

There are many good reasons for why they didn't support the Mac, and it's been covered at length before.


All of them BS too.

The reason is that Benji says no so it won't happen.

I have the ISO image of the Mac Mini port right here, so it's not only possible its quite simple.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: save2600 on July 23, 2013, 11:45:55 PM
X1000 bashing is the only reason I'm even aware the system sorta/kinda even exists.  lol

Too bad the cost of the damned thing (incomplete or missing drivers, under powered specs, etc. aside), will forever keep it and the OS in an irrelevant state to most. Still, it's great to see legacy hardware such as accelerators for the 2000/4000/1200 coming out of the woodwork so people can try to afford one of these beasties.  :)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on July 24, 2013, 09:46:39 AM
The path to perfomance in this day and age is parallel processing.  A dual-core CPU in this day and age is pathetic in the grand scheme of things (although I'm still running on a Core 2 Duo on my Mac Mini and a dual-core Centrino for my Windows 7 laptop).  In order to get the level of parallelism out of a CPU, Hyperion's going to need to trash most of the compatibility argument.  This renders their efforts rather futile since Amigans are the only link to the past (other than the Legend of Zelda title  :laugh1: ).

If they were going to do a clean break, they should have done it early on.  Personally, I think that an FPGAArcade can beat the snot out of an X1000 if only its programmers could quit writing code in single-threaded C and instead write it in Erlang and have a compiler render to custom cores using VHDL as an intermediate representation for the FPGA.

FPGAs, despite their expense, are massively more parallel than a CPU can ever hope to be.  They are also more flexible and efficient than a GPU since it is more general-purpose than those parallel-pipelined beasties.  The time for dedicated silicon for specific features is quickly drawing to a close at the hands of field programmable gate arrays.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: cha05e90 on July 24, 2013, 10:31:43 AM
Quote from: save2600;741871
Still, it's great to see legacy hardware such as accelerators for the 2000/4000/1200 coming out of the woodwork so people can try to afford one of these beasties.  :)

Huh? Where's the A2000 accelerator? And I mean accelerator, not some underpowered completely useless 020 or 030? My last achievement was a used Blizzard 2060 which cost me 2/3 of a new Sam440ep. So much about "affordness".
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Fats on July 24, 2013, 01:08:37 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;741819
@fats:
hmm, maybe im recalling wrong, but werent you once playing with an idea of getting an x1k?


Not that I remember but I may be getting old...
It currently is not in my plans but never say never. I have an A1G3SE though with OS4.0, Mac with MorphOS 2.7 thanks to some MOS enthousiasts and developing AROS on my x86_64 Linux machine.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 24, 2013, 02:41:48 PM
I've an idea.  If Bill M (He who shall not be named) is not dead, maybe we can get him to implement Olaf's business strategy to produce hardware to compete against the X1K and drive the price down resulting in a price war amongst the 200-2000 or so potential buyers. Market Frenzy!!!

IMO Trevor is a saint who believes in the Amiga and although I now don't have an intention of buying an X1K at least he's off his spotty behind doing something about the Amiga world rather than postulating precipitously about nothing while picking both blackheads and nose hairs complaining about reality. Get over it. move on!  
I'm ranting, sorry need a good nights sleep.

+1 Ease of anyone actually producing something new in the Amiga space.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: EDanaII on July 24, 2013, 03:23:02 PM
What some people fail to understand about the X1000 bashing is that those bashing might actually like to be a part of the Amiga experience but are unwilling (too realistic) to pay that price.

I'd love to invest in Amiga again, but 3k is out of the question. Same goes for those Same machines at a 1k.

I happily invested in AROS because it was affordable for the amount of use I'd get out of it. I did the same for MorphOS for exactly the same reason. If that mythical AmigaOS netbook for around 300 smackers had showed had shown up, I would have gladly invested in it.

But 1k to 3k just so I can call myself a "true Amigan?" Sorry, it's not only a bad business strategy, it's just plain stupid and bashing it is perfectly valid.

Two cents...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 24, 2013, 03:34:39 PM
Quote from: EDanaII;742010
I happily invested in AROS because it was affordable for the amount of use I'd get out of it. I did the same for MorphOS for exactly the same reason. If that mythical AmigaOS netbook for around 300 smackers had showed had shown up, I would have gladly invested in it.
But 1k to 3k just so I can call myself a "true Amigan?" Sorry, it's not only a bad business strategy, it's just plain stupid and bashing it is perfectly valid.
Two cents...

No, its at least 250 euros for SAM 440 board to be able to use it.
Would love if it would be different, but it isn`t. Off course, if you wish
better hardware, cost goes higher.

Well, considering performance on Classics and  lowest SAM 440s of 500-600Mhz net book would be of limited use, even it would be affordable.

But we do hope for better lower end system. My vote goes for building a next Acube board and lowering price of SAM 460 Lite.

A-EON will remain in high end high cost region, kind like MacPros.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 04:34:03 PM
Quote from: Fats;741983
Not that I remember but I may be getting old...
It currently is not in my plans but never say never. I have an A1G3SE though with OS4.0, Mac with MorphOS 2.7 thanks to some MOS enthousiasts and developing AROS on my x86_64 Linux machine.


i meant to recall that at least one of key aros devs was intending to buy into x1k, maybe it was someone else. not that i d consider it a bad thing if there was aros port for x1k;)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 24, 2013, 04:35:36 PM
Olaf may be doing things (his something) over on AROS.
I may have brought up the 'port it to another architecture' a few years early.
But in a few years there may be no more PowerPC chips being made. Are you just going finish there?
Why not take advantage of all the things you can do with ARM based systems?

I will wait the 'few years' quietly. I don't need an ARM based Amiga now, but if you get around to doing it, I would buy it.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: gertsy;741996
IMO Trevor is a saint who believes in the Amiga and although I now don't have an intention of buying an X1K at least he's off his spotty behind doing something about the Amiga world rather than postulating precipitously about nothing while picking both blackheads and nose hairs complaining about reality. Get over it. move on!  
I'm ranting, sorry need a good nights sleep.

not to dimnish trevors achievements, but olaf is doing his share for the community as well, namely an aros68k distribution. and he was supporting many projects especially taking care of open sourcing essential software to preserve it for us, may sound not like much in comparison, within his abilities he is doing a lot and without any financial return.

we might open another thread about how bad aros(68) is and how messy olafs distribution is but funny enough none cares either way, even though almost all they want amiga on x86 and so on. i would welcome some criticism, because it means interest.

edit: ah, and ive seen critical threads on aros on several occasions, some aros fans may have been offended, but honestly, for me as aros supporter it was always an opportunity to find out problems and initiate improvements.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 04:47:13 PM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;742018
Olaf may be doing things (his something) over on AROS.
I may have brought up the 'port it to another architecture' a few years early.
But in a few years there may be no more PowerPC chips being made. Are you just going finish there?
Why not take advantage of all the things you can do with ARM based systems?

I will wait the 'few years' quietly. I don't need an ARM based Amiga now, but if you get around to doing it, I would buy it.

how often do you want to hear it yet? if you want the above go for aros. it is heading in the very direction you want. if you are not satisfied with aros as is, get involved with it. help out. program. port stuff. report bugs. you are free to do all that, unlike on os4 where you will never be let into the castle. get active instead.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 24, 2013, 05:03:56 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742021
not to dimnish trevors achievements, but olaf is doing his share for the community as well, namely an aros68k distribution. and he was supporting many projects especially taking care of open sourcing essential software to preserve it for us, may sound not like much in comparison, within his abilities he is doing a lot and without any financial return.

we might open another thread about how bad aros(68) is and how messy olafs distribution is but funny enough none cares either way, even though almost all they want amiga on x86 and so on. i would welcome some criticism, because it means interest.

edit: ah, and ive seen critical threads on aros on several occasions, some aros fans may have been offended, but honestly, for me as aros supporter it was always an opportunity to find out problems and initiate improvements.

thanks for nice words (even for the "messy" part :-) ). Your part testing AROS 68k on real hardware is very important too. Thanx for that.

the lack of interest is because most 68k fans do not realize how important AROS 68k will be in future. It is a standardized, extensible and opensource 68k platform. It will run not only on classic hardware and emulation (including AROS distributions) but also on new FPGA based hardware. So you can write a 68k software and it runs on all supported platforms. You miss functionality, it can be added. Most 68k fans only see it is it 100% compatible, answer No. Is it running as fast as AmigaOS, answer No. Then they say no interest. That is shortsighted from my point of view but it is how many people think. That will not change before software will exist for AROS 68k that is not available for any other 68k platform.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Thorham on July 24, 2013, 05:13:07 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742024
Is it running as fast as AmigaOS, answer No.
That problem can be solved by hand optimizing the compiler output, so that's not necessarily an issue. It can also be solved by reimplementing AROS in assembly language (probably the best way). Yes, quite a chore, I know ;)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 24, 2013, 05:20:29 PM
I read from Tony that part of the problem is that GCC 68k is less optimized nowadays what makes AROS slower.

Yes Assembler would make it faster (a lot) but who does that. At the moment only two people with limited time are involved on system level (Toni Kickstart Replacement and Jason AROS 68k).
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: Thorham;742026
That problem can be solved by hand optimizing the compiler output, so that's not necessarily an issue. It can also be solved by reimplementing AROS in assembly language (probably the best way). Yes, quite a chore, I know ;)
it isnt necessary nor possible to rewrite whole aros in asm to gain speed. aros needs to be platform independent and portable and therefore source needs to be kept in a high language for the most part. but critical parts are in assembly already, or may be yet replaced by such where it is necessary.

also there are initiatives to rewrite and optimize essential libraries in asm, consult eab for that. (f.i. peters keunecke icon.library:
http://aminet.net/util/libs/IconLib_46.4.lha)

however toni wilen confirms that this work on details is mostly of minimal influence for the whole especially in comparison to effort. i can confirm it from own experience when testing and helping alain thellier to improve storm mesa (68k). i dont remember which compiler exactly he has used, i guess it was gcc3.4.0 (which is particularly bad, current 4.6.x versions, used for aros, are better again). alain let out the genuine asm inlines, because they were not compatible with gcc, but it had no negative influence on overall speed afair.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 24, 2013, 05:37:18 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742030
it isnt necessary nor possible to rewrite whole aros in asm to gain speed. aros needs to be platform independent and portable and therefore source needs to be kept in a high language for the most part. but critical parts are in assembly already, or may be yet replaced by such where it is necessary.

also there are initiatives to rewrite and optimize essential libraries in asm, consult eab for that.

however toni wilen confirms that this work on details is mostly of minimal influence for the whole especially in comparison to effort. i can confirm it from own experience when testing and helping alain thellier to improve storm mesa (68k). i dont remember which compiler exactly he has used, i guess it was gcc3.4.0 (which is particularly bad, current 4.6.x versions, used for aros, are better again). alain let out the genuine asm inlines, because they were not compatible with gcc, but it had no negative influence on overall speed.

I think he not meant to rewrite whole Aros in Assembler (only critical parts)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 24, 2013, 05:59:50 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742024
thanks for nice words (even for the "messy" part :-) ). Your part testing AROS 68k on real hardware is very important too. Thanx for that.

the lack of interest is because most 68k fans do not realize how important AROS 68k will be in future. It is a standardized, extensible and opensource 68k platform. It will run not only on classic hardware and emulation (including AROS distributions) but also on new FPGA based hardware. So you can write a 68k software and it runs on all supported platforms. You miss functionality, it can be added. Most 68k fans only see it is it 100% compatible, answer No. Is it running as fast as AmigaOS, answer No. Then they say no interest. That is shortsighted from my point of view but it is how many people think. That will not change before software will exist for AROS 68k that is not available for any other 68k platform.

I do understand it is AROS for all as it can be run via UAE. Could you do some version that can be fast and hosted inside MorphOS/AmigaOS 4 68k emulation? I am not keen of running emulated AROS inside QEMU on Linux on X1000 ... So I see point here if possible, too ... AROS for MorphOS and OS4 users.

Sadly, Natami is unlikelly to hapen, but its good to see FPGA Arcade and others for Classic lovers. If there was no AROS 68k, there would be no point in further 68k development.

And hope we are done with X1000 bashing :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: save2600 on July 24, 2013, 06:09:04 PM
Quote from: cha05e90;741956
Huh? Where's the A2000 accelerator? And I mean accelerator, not some underpowered completely useless 020 or 030? My last achievement was a used Blizzard 2060 which cost me 2/3 of a new Sam440ep. So much about "affordness".

Look around. Amibay, eBay, etc. More 2060's, 1260's, and PPC cards for the A3000/A4000 the last couple of years being sold than ever it seems. 2060/1260 still in the $350-$500 range. But yes, the PPC boards are going for crazy silly prices.

And hell, the "measly" 020/030 will probably forever be in more peoples hands than X1000 + Sam systems combined. Don't understand what's "completely useless" about either chip??
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 24, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
Quote from: vox;742034
I do understand it is AROS for all as it can be run via UAE. Could you do some version that can be fast and hosted inside MorphOS/AmigaOS 4 68k emulation? I am not keen of running emulated AROS inside QEMU on Linux on X1000 ... So I see point here if possible, too ... AROS for MorphOS and OS4 users.

Sadly, Natami is unlikelly to hapen, but its good to see FPGA Arcade and others for Classic lovers. If there was no AROS 68k, there would be no point in further 68k development.

And hope we are done with X1000 bashing :-)

X1000 is there and all was bashed what could be bashed :-)

You can only run AROS 68k in UAE. QEMU is very slow from my experience. I think someone run AROS in QEMU on a X1000 (I think I saw a screenshot). But when I tested AROS X86 running with QEMU it was too slow. I installed it in VMWare. "Hosted" is also very fast.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 06:22:48 PM
Quote from: vox;742034
Could you do some version that can be fast and hosted inside MorphOS/AmigaOS 4 68k emulation?

i fear its not up to olaf to make aros68k any faster. however the quest is ongiong. how fast is uae on ppc systems available for you?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 24, 2013, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742038
X1000 is there and all was bashed what could be bashed :-)

You can only run AROS 68k in UAE. QEMU is very slow from my experience. I think someone run AROS in QEMU on a X1000 (I think I saw a screenshot). But when I tested AROS X86 running with QEMU it was too slow. I installed it in VMWare. "Hosted" is also very fast.

Yes, and since AOS4 (and MorphOS) have 68k CPU JIT, is it possible to make some faster box then having to use UAE (or QUEMU/UAE on Linux) to run it? I know you don`t maintain the PPC release - but it does it run hosted on PPC Linux too? (natively only on SAMs?)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Acill on July 24, 2013, 08:37:55 PM
I still stand firm on my feelings that this is a ridiculously priced machine for what you get out of it. You cant compare how MOS runs on the G5 to it at all, sure it only uses one core, but it does that on the G4 too and not because they cant get it working with both, but because they chose to maintain compatibility.

As for the 1GB of RAM, thats still a hell of a lot better over what your getting from the X1000 hardware being used on AOS. All the hardware that came with a G5 is used and working on MOS, if it shipped with the models that are supported, the hardware has a driver. This was all done with a bounty for less than a single X1000 machines cost.

The point goes back to the original gripe I had and getting back on topic, selling a machine for a premium price that doesnt even have full support of the hardware stinks of "give me your money" and isnt in the spirit of "Amiga" at all. This is what killed the damn Amiga in the first place!

They should be building a machine that is better priced, fully supported and easily purchased by the average user to sell more copies of OS4 thus increasing the number of users and making some money at the same time.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 24, 2013, 09:14:32 PM
Quote from: Acill;742057
I still stand firm on my feelings that this is a ridiculously priced machine for what you get out of it. You cant compare how MOS runs on the G5 to it at all, sure it only uses one core, but it does that on the G4 too and not because they cant get it working with both, but because they chose to maintain compatibility.

As for the 1GB of RAM, thats still a hell of a lot better over what your getting from the X1000 hardware being used on AOS. All the hardware that came with a G5 is used and working on MOS, if it shipped with the models that are supported, the hardware has a driver. This was all done with a bounty for less than a single X1000 machines cost.

The point goes back to the original gripe I had and getting back on topic, selling a machine for a premium price that doesnt even have full support of the hardware stinks of "give me your money" and isnt in the spirit of "Amiga" at all. This is what killed the damn Amiga in the first place!.

Well Trevor could hold back and wait for OS 4.2 (as machine was announced) and we wouldn`t have all the shame and blame, but instead I do believe quite a lot was gained even by premature, expensive and blah blah system: path to develop more advanced features, experience to correct mistakes such as PA Semi, and possibility for users to have high end system.

All the hardware in X1000 is usable with limitations of 2D driver, no second core and 2GB RAM limit - which stands for all AOS 4.1.6 users.

As of G5 and MorphOS bluetooth and firewire I believe are not (yet) support.

I on my own have calculated what I get with SAM 460 and X1000 and decided to go for X1000 - just because it will offer way more once oS 4.2 is out. Not that I am happy with pricing - but I am aware that it is future of AmigaOS 4 and that I will see better days with dual core, 4GB RAM and nice RadeonHD 7000. Even there will be a better X2000 system about time of OS 4.2, I would take it now, and show appreciate for Trevors effort to provide a path for AmigaOS to grow mature - where I do count RadeonHD 3D driver and OpenOffice ports. So I count my money went to both OS 4.1, OS 4.2, and Trevors efforts.

I was nearly buying Mac G5 for about fraction of what I will give in the end for X1000 - but sadly was beaten in bidding, Even higher price I will pay then people in EU (when I count in import taxes, postage and packing and enormous interest I will in the end pay to the bank loan) but I do believe its path towards seeing AmigaOS coming to quite usable state. Meanwhile I will have to use Linux for daily work.

If there was no Trevors effort, I would never dare to do that. And I believe everyone that buys X1000 (or later on X2000) knows what he is buying it.

Quote
They should be building a machine that is better priced, fully supported  and easily purchased by the average user to sell more copies of OS4  thus increasing the number of users and making some money at the same  time.       

I agree that is "not Amiga spirit of old" (even Commodore did nice profits on high end models and they were never acessable to all)
but SAM 460 looks like new low end. If ACube brings new board, SAM 460 Lite should become new low end.
There I see it fitting with AmigaOne 500 model.

If it was such an easy task to get new cheap but good PPC board, why there is none for MorphOS (Efika being even lower
end then SAM 440)

Once MorphOS gets either ported to X1000 or x86 I have no doubts I will buy it. As some SAM 460 users will.

With support of boards, I do hope OS 4.2 will bring order and support, and that X2000 and beyond will come
fully supported breaking the ugly tradition of selling hardware before fully supported with software, as it
started with original AmigaOne coming with no AmigaOS at all.

So, my hope is that I have partialy invested in brighter future, as if anything gave a hope to OS4
users, it truly is A-EON as Genesi once did for MorphOS.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Crumb on July 24, 2013, 09:19:21 PM
@vox

MorphOS drives firewire stuff correctly with Helios on my Mac Mini, I don't see why it wouldn't work on G5s. As for Bluetooth I don't think I ever used it on Windows/OSX machines.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 24, 2013, 09:26:06 PM
Quote from: Crumb;742063
@vox

MorphOS drives firewire stuff correctly with Helios on my Mac Mini, I don't see why it wouldn't work on G5s. As for Bluetooth I don't think I ever used it on Windows/OSX machines.

I stand corrected. Bluetooth is great thing when sharing stuff with phone or even making a wireless network, and one thing I praise Apple for is including most modern standards and quality input/outpout devices.

My point was not to bash MorphOS back - MOS usualy really supported its hardware, unlike AmigaOS 4 - but to show that breaking OS barriers with high end hardware is not an easy task.

Problem is I don`t see what will be current MorphOS plan (beside announced ISA change) will be: no dual core plan, no more graphics card to support as PCI-E gfx is out of reach and so on. So that is the place where A-EON/Hyperion strategy currently works better for the future, and at least gives some promising expectations to AmigaOS 4.

Now its to Hyperion and community developers to live up to it. And with things they have started to set up after court case (Blog,Support forum, OS4 website, frequent updates, 2D driver for RadeonHD) things started to look better, really. I kind of newer expected it to come this far back in the days when SAM 440 was only and most powerful hardware avail aside used Terron boards.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 24, 2013, 09:38:45 PM
Quote
Bluetooth is great thing when sharing stuff with phone

pita. i prefer to connect my phone to the pc via usb any time..
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Hans_ on July 24, 2013, 11:11:54 PM
Quote from: Acill;742057
They should be building a machine that is better priced, fully supported and easily purchased by the average user to sell more copies of OS4 thus increasing the number of users and making some money at the same time.

That sounds great ... until you start trying to think of a way to make it happen and at least break even. Go on, try to come up with a realistic plan. Once you discover how expensive it is to develop and produce one of these boards, and how hard (and expensive) driver development is, I think that you'll give up. The length of time that it took to get onboard audio supported (both A1-X1000 and Sam460ex) should give you a hint as to how hard and time consuming driver developmennt is. Also, bear in mind that people won't be satisfied with Efika grade hardware even if it's affordable.

This may be slightly off-topic but, given the above, here's some of what I like about "Project Cyrus" (the future A1-X2000):
- Freescale have committed to long-term supply of the CPU, so any work done supporting it will last years
- There's an upgrade path to a high-end quad-core machine (via the P5040) without requiring reengineering of the board, or a single new driver to be written
- Choosing an already supprted sound-card instead of having an audio chip on-board lowers board costs, board design & testing costs, and eliminates the need to create yet another driver (or scrounge around for a supported chip that will remain available long-term)

Hans
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Rob on July 24, 2013, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742017
i meant to recall that at least one of key aros devs was intending to buy into x1k, maybe it was someone else. not that i d consider it a bad thing if there was aros port for x1k;)


Yep, pretty sure phoenixkonsole has one.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Acill on July 25, 2013, 12:08:36 AM
Quote from: Hans_;742079
That sounds great ... until you start trying to think of a way to make it happen and at least break even. Go on, try to come up with a realistic plan. Once you discover how expensive it is to develop and produce one of these boards, and how hard (and expensive) driver development is, I think that you'll give up. The length of time that it took to get onboard audio supported (both A1-X1000 and Sam460ex) should give you a hint as to how hard and time consuming driver developmennt is. Also, bear in mind that people won't be satisfied with Efika grade hardware even if it's affordable.

This may be slightly off-topic but, given the above, here's some of what I like about "Project Cyrus" (the future A1-X2000):
- Freescale have committed to long-term supply of the CPU, so any work done supporting it will last years
- There's an upgrade path to a high-end quad-core machine (via the P5040) without requiring reengineering of the board, or a single new driver to be written
- Choosing an already supprted sound-card instead of having an audio chip on-board lowers board costs, board design & testing costs, and eliminates the need to create yet another driver (or scrounge around for a supported chip that will remain available long-term)

Hans

Oh spare me the crap about how hard and expensive it is. I work at intel and see other engineers doing things here all the time for nearly nothing on hardware they just toss together to test ideas. As mentioned if the Raspberry-PI guys can build a machine as cheap as they do I dont want to hear how hard it is to get it done. I see it every single day I go to work.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 12:31:25 AM
Quote from: Hans_;742079
That sounds great ... until you start trying to think of a way to make it happen and at least break even. Go on, try to come up with a realistic plan. Once you discover how expensive it is to develop and produce one of these boards, and how hard (and expensive) driver development is, I think that you'll give up. The length of time that it took to get onboard audio supported (both A1-X1000 and Sam460ex) should give you a hint as to how hard and time consuming driver developmennt is. Also, bear in mind that people won't be satisfied with Efika grade hardware even if it's affordable.
Hans


+1. Trevor did something no other individual has done in a decade. Soz Acube. And through AON produced a complete product distributed through AmigaKit. Sure it's nigh on $3K, not cheap, but much of the community sees it as expensive when compared to mass produced intel MBs with a multi million market base. Providing a marketable product under a sustainable business plan allows you to invest further if successful. It also reduces risk of falling on your face with realistic sales modelling.  
How much was the original Amiga when it came out in 1985?; $1,300 with 256k and without monitor. I think the cost is comparative all things considered (including the distribution model).
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Hans_ on July 25, 2013, 12:33:38 AM
Quote from: Acill;742084
Oh spare me the crap about how hard and expensive it is. I work at intel and see other engineers doing things here all the time for nearly nothing on hardware they just toss together to test ideas. As mentioned if the Raspberry-PI guys can build a machine as cheap as they do I dont want to hear how hard it is to get it done. I see it every single day I go to work.

The Raspberry Pi is built around a single ARM SoC with everything that they need, including GPU. They also took full advantage of available Linux drivers, and manufacturing at higher volumes than we're talking about. If something similar existed in the PowerPC world, then it would definitely be much easier. But, it doesn't.

Anyway, why don't you prove me wrong then. Go and "toss together" a PowerPC motherboard with PCIe & PCI slots, make sure that every bit of hardware on the board has AmigaOS 4.x drivers before putting it on the market, and sell it for a reasonable price.

Good luck. You're going to need it. ;-)

Hans


P.S. The Raspberry Pi is pretty slow and very limited (e.g., slow SD-Card, no SATA, etc.). It suffers (amongst other things) from bandwidth constraints caused by the CPU and GPU sharing bandwidth. Comparing what A-Eon is doing with the Raspberry Pi is a bit of a joke.

P.P.S. Did you factor in the salaries of those engineers at Intel when you calculated that their exploits cost "nearly nothing"?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: Acill;742084
Oh spare me the crap about how hard and expensive it is. I work at intel and see other engineers doing things here all the time for nearly nothing on hardware they just toss together to test ideas. As mentioned if the Raspberry-PI guys can build a machine as cheap as they do I dont want to hear how hard it is to get it done. I see it every single day I go to work.

Good. We are all eager to see someone (you) producing competition, a PPC board of any kind that will be supported by MorphOS/AmigaOS 4, including software support afterwards. Its always easy to say something someone else is suppose to do is easy.

Again, Pi is total low end, powerful like a smartphone, with software  was developed by 3rd parties and produced in at least 10 000 bacthes to  get as low price as possible.

So spare us the crap. I see it every single day on TV - fluffy promises of what could be done.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Hans_;742086
....
Anyway, why don't you prove me wrong then. Go and "toss together" a PowerPC motherboard with PCIe & PCI slots, make sure that every bit of hardware on the board has AmigaOS 4.x drivers before putting it on the market, and sell it for a reasonable price.

....


:)

A bit of tossing going on here.  But agree. If there was money to be made it would be happening. There isn't, so it's not. Simple as that.  Those who are in it do it for more than money but also do it sustainably.

It would be great if you could successfully build a hardware/OS product by community/committee but you can't.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: agami on July 25, 2013, 01:47:58 AM
As long as we agree that 'ease off" does not mean stopping altogether.

And how's that Xena "custom" chip working for y'all. Is it rocking your world? Is the community coming up with all sorts of amazing uses for it?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: eliyahu on July 25, 2013, 01:52:59 AM
Quote from: agami;742094
And how's that Xena "custom" chip working for y'all. Is it rocking your world? Is the community coming up with all sorts of amazing uses for it?
cheap, trolling comments like that are exactly what is not needed in a grown-up discussion. if you already know the answer to that question, and you know it's a sore point, then bringing it up deliberately to stir the pot is trolling.

don't do it again.

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: haywirepc on July 25, 2013, 02:18:56 AM
XENA is awesome. People with X1000's can open up their case and show people the chip. definitely worth 3k by itself.

:quickdraw:
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 25, 2013, 02:47:52 AM
Quote from: vox;741747
Hardware is fully functional and its not a prototype.
Fact that OS 4.1 does not support all its features (but Linux does) is well known. Having it out now is better then waiting 2014 or so for OS 4.2 to be out. As well as you get license for OS 4.2

a) Who would spend $3,000+ on a Linux machine?
b) A-EON should discount the x1000 until fully operational under OS 4.x
c) A license to 4.2 is not worth thousands of dollars
 
Back to the Raspberry Pi argument. You could buy 90+ (model b) or 125+ (model a) for the same cost as one X1000. Some people like C= USA and E-on believe that just because you add a Amiga logo or use a model designation such as 1000 it warrants a huge premium.
 
So where does this put Individual computers? Should Jens start selling his ACA cards @ $600+ each, his Indivision @ $1,000 because of the limited market. There is a lot that can be learned from Individual Computers such as reasonable pricing and innovative products. As far as those bitching about modifying their Amiga 1200s to get ACA cards to work - buy a X1000 if you can't be bothered.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 25, 2013, 02:51:59 AM
@haywirepc
 
There is only one Xena worth talking about. Xena: Warrior Princess!
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: TheMagicM on July 25, 2013, 02:57:41 AM
I dont care.   I use MorphOS 3.2 and a G5.  :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 25, 2013, 03:31:54 AM
Quote from: TheMagicM;742103
I dont care.   I use MorphOS 3.2 and a G5.  :-)


+1 :)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: smerf on July 25, 2013, 03:41:11 AM
Hi,

Don't know what to really say on this subject, but I do use Amiga Forever on my Windows machines and it keeps me smiling.

SOS just another day

smerf
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: James2002 on July 25, 2013, 04:14:52 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742101
a) Who would spend $3,000+ on a Linux machine?
b) A-EON should discount the x1000 until fully operational under OS 4.x
c) A license to 4.2 is not worth thousands of dollars
 
Back to the Raspberry Pi argument. You could buy 90+ (model b) or 125+ (model a) for the same cost as one X1000. Some people like C= USA and E-on believe that just because you add a Amiga logo or use a model designation such as 1000 it warrants a huge premium.

I agree with you prices is everything. Even with my prepaid card I can only fit $2,500.00 on it.  I dont have enough credit to even buy that.  C=USA was very over priced on everything.

Would I love to buy Amiga computer? Yes if it was reasonable price. The biggest concern is how many people will buy overpriced hobby.  When I build my computers I try to stay under 600.00 USA dollars.

Operation system that works with hardware is a must.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: slayer on July 25, 2013, 05:20:22 AM
Quote from: Hans_;742079

This may be slightly off-topic but, given the above, here's some of what I like about "Project Cyrus" (the future A1-X2000):
- Freescale have committed to long-term supply of the CPU, so any work done supporting it will last years
- There's an upgrade path to a high-end quad-core machine (via the P5040) without requiring reengineering of the board, or a single new driver to be written
- Choosing an already supprted sound-card instead of having an audio chip on-board lowers board costs, board design & testing costs, and eliminates the need to create yet another driver (or scrounge around for a supported chip that will remain available long-term)


Spot on Hans :pint:
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: F1Lupo on July 25, 2013, 05:59:56 AM
Quote from: spirantho;741622
The incessantly negative attitude of many on A.org has definitely driven away a number of good members. If you look on places like AW.net where it's a much more friendly forum for all flavours, you'll probably find a number of members who used to frequent here....

broken record still playing here I see:smack:
@ eliyahu

+1 for effort! I can just see your lip bleeding from biting down on it so hard mate ;)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Duce on July 25, 2013, 06:43:12 AM
It's not an issue of the X1000 being slammed specifically here.  Harsh, insulting criticisms from people driving their own personal preferences has long been an issue here.  Any given week it might crop up as "Oh well OS4 sucks 'cuz MOS has a pretty butterfly logo", or "MOS sux cause OS4 is actually called Amiga OS and has the boing ball".  There's weirdo zealots on each side.  It's mutually assured destruction at its finest, really.  A bunch of people using obscure OS's no one in the real world has really heard of, let alone used - arguing semantics rather than simply use what they prefer and encourage the scene as a whole without any of this OS propaganda nonsense.  It's like arguing religion.  There's no winner, there's just what fits your ideals personally the best.  You use what you like, I'll use what I like.  Try everything you can and make your own choices, and discuss opinions civilly.  You'll be a better person and have more fun if you try everything you can get your hands on and make your choices from all the offerings.

I use them all, OS4, MOS, and fiddled with AROS a bit.  I can offer slamming criticism to each of them, and praises to each of them.  I understand those saying OS4 hardware is terribly overpriced and I've often darn near prayed for Hyperion to support the PPC Mac lineage.  I admittedly overpaid greatly for underpowered OS4 hardware in late 2008 when I pre-ordered my SAM 440.  I am using MOS more and more (and have paid for it), and becoming more familiar with it, but it's still a bit foreign to me and I don't really like old Mac hardware,  so I still prefer OS4 at this time.  I was extremely disappointed after buying a PPC Mac laptop with the understanding the onboard, in-built Wireless would be supported in the most recent MOS release, which it isn't.  AROS I've never been able to get running 100% solid, but I am still fiddling with it and hope to gain more experience with it.  Each OS, or hardware platform - we will all have different experiences with each offering and we'll all end up using what we most prefer.  What each individual "prefers" does not quantify their OS of choice as "the best and only real Amiga solution".  We are all Amigans, and it drives me nuts when people seem to get off on driving factional lines between something as personally preferential as OS choice.  If your OS of choice differs from mine, I'd *LOVE* to hear your opinions on it in a civil fashion - but the "Derp, u use Brand X OS variant, u r a poopyhead" argument gets real old, and people HAVE left A.org over it.

To blatantly chide users of an "enemy OS" in the Amiga scene is cutting off your nose to spite your face.  There are facts and opinions, both are easy to flesh out and discuss openly and politely.  Give your opinions.  Opinions are not fact.  Open conversation about our choices in what is a very small hobby computing market is what at one time made this forum site what I considered the best Amiga site on the web.  Nowadays, it can tend to resemble people flinging feces at each other like zoo monkeys.

Open, civil criticism of different variations of what is essentially the same darned thing for all intents and purposes is counter productive at best, and horribly destructive and childish at worst.  Civil criticism can be done as easily as venom filled bits of diatribe here, and the latter only makes you look as someone pushing an agenda.  Foolish at best.

Just once I'd like to see us all get on the same page.  We're all running the same race here.  It's a hobby, and I do find it shameful and redundant to still be playing the "OS Wars" cards that we were playing in the 1980's era Amiga vs. IBM compatible days.  We don't have the numbers to drive wedges between factions, as a whole.

So much time is wasted driving wedges between the "camps" - wouldn't it be just great if we could simply agree that we're all Amigans and maybe use our time better to get more up to date programs like Open Office, modern printer drivers or modern, capable web browsers on *ALL* these "modern" Amiga's?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 07:19:58 AM
Quote from: James2002;742112
I agree with you prices is everything. Even with my prepaid card I can  only fit $2,500.00 on it.  I dont have enough credit to even buy that.   C=USA was very over priced on everything.

Points you displayed as quote are filled  and agreed with sarcasm and bashing. There is a civil way to see the same. But yet even at A.org majority of voters says bashing is undeserved or that it should stop.

Quote
Would I love to buy Amiga computer? Yes if it was reasonable price. The  biggest concern is how many people will buy overpriced hobby.  
You can get better credit card, or reach for classic bank loan. Or take cheaper model, you know its not the only one.
A lot of people wish to have high end Mac but often can buy just basic one. In time, patience and saving, you can reach a goal.
Not just everything instantly.

Quote
Operation system that works with hardware is a must.
You are right about the OS, but sometimes is required to go first with  hardware. If we see AOS 4.2 2014, should Trevor wait so long with X1000?  In reality we got AOS 4.1.6 as it is for X1000, and X2000 developed  meanwhile. I don`t see failure in both.

Quote
When I build my computers I try to stay under 600.00 USA dollars.
You have SAM 440 in your league.

Quote
a) Who would spend $3,000+ on a Linux machine?
Who would buy $3000 Linux machine you say?

Answer is provided within - a true Linux (and AmigaOS) geek.

Quote
b) A-EON should discount the x1000 until fully operational under OS 4.x
You mean Hyperion should step up from its 115 euros? Well, even unplanned, they have made 4.1.6 work and I express gratitude for that

Quote
`c) A license to 4.2 is not worth thousands of dollars
No, but at least I will not pay for OS once its done. Its worth about 115 euros.

I find parallel with C-USA very offending. Yes AmigaOne has Amiga name and logo, but for true reason as it runs AmigaOS, and not licensed to resell common x86 hardware with their themed Linux. Its design that never existed before, to whom AmigaOS was ported and deserves credit.

AmigaOS survival doesn`t stand on X1000 - there are SAMs.

But path forward obviously has something to do with it.

Parallel would be most of MorphOS users crying because they just can`t find enough used G5 Macs, or finding them not fully used or terribly overpriced, and add to bonus with Mac logo ...

@Duce

Quote
So much time is wasted driving wedges between the "camps" - wouldn't it  be just great if we could simply agree that we're all Amigans and maybe  use our time better to get more up to date programs like Open Office,  modern printer drivers or modern, capable web browsers on *ALL* these  "modern" Amiga's?       

Agreed, my parallels use MorphOS just because that is OS in state most similar to AOS4 (PPC, RAM limits, similarly small community ...)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 07:31:08 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742101

I find your abc arguments stupid and insulting. But your right.
 
Quote
Back to the Raspberry Pi argument. You could buy 90+ (model b) or 125+ (model a) for the same cost as one X1000.
Good luck with 125 Pi`s of your choice.

Quote
So where does this put Individual computers? Should Jens start selling  his ACA cards @ $600+ each, his Indivision @ $1,000 because of the  limited market. There is a lot that can be learned from Individual  Computers such as reasonable pricing and innovative products. As far as  those bitching about modifying their Amiga 1200s to get ACA cards to  work - buy a X1000 if you can't be bothered.
Please, ACA cards are 030 and offered for Classics. OS4 equivalent of middle or next to lowest solution would be some of SAM 440 models on different frequencies, that cost less then some of Classic expansions on net. Used. Today.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 25, 2013, 07:48:33 AM
"We need to build computers for the masses, not the classes". Jack Tramiel
 
Therefore the criticism for the X1000 is warranted. What were the designers of the X1000 thinking when they were building this product. Lets build a computer that only a handful of users can afford.

The original Commodore-Amiga (1000) retailed at US$1,295 adjusted to 2013 levels that would be US$2,446. Cheaper than the X1000.
 
At least the Amiga 1000 was fully functioning at the time of release apart from a buggy kickstart. The original Amiga offered innovation and specifications that was unmatched by rivals at the time of release.
 
Although Tramiel had left Commodore by the time Amiga was marketed his business principles were still followed by management in the form of the A500, A600, A1200 models.

The X1000 lacks no influence to the Amiga 1000. The case is not A1000 inspired (no keyboard garage), it is overpriced (as mentioned above) and lacks anything remotely custom apart from Xorro - unlike the A1000 which featured custom video and audio chips.
 
What is more insulting (or stupid) is they moving to their next high spec model X2000 without addressing the problems that plagued the X1000 - high cost and lack of Amiga OS 4 compatibility.

E-on needs to address both if they wish to be feasible in the future. A X1000CR (cost reduced) model would be welcomed by many Amiga users if they could get the performance and price balance right.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Duce on July 25, 2013, 07:58:54 AM
Don't buy what you cannot afford, or what you don't see as being worth the money.  Example:

The vast majority of this world cannot afford a Ferrari, but I don't see people rising en masse and picketing the streetcorners in Maranello claiming that the Ferrari Corporation is the Devil incarnate :)

I have been critical of the pricing on all the OS4 machines, and I was one of the early adopters - but I also didn't ever assume they would come out at bargain basement pricing.  Base model SAM boards are now nearly one third of what they were new, so it seems pretty clear to me that it's a widely known and held opinion the platform has the stigma of being hard to enter price wise.  I paid nearly $1000 for my SAM board when it was brand new, and I am happy with it, just like I am the free Mac I am running MOS on.  Machinea I knew all along is underpowered in real world terms even compared to the cellular telephone I owned in 2009.  Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Want a cheap or even free Amiga experience?  There's MOS and AROS.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 25, 2013, 08:09:28 AM
Quote from: vox;741747
Good luck with 125 Pi`s of your choice.

Truly you have more money than sense if you believe that a X1000 is worth the equivalent of 125 Pi's. What is the wholesale cost of producing a X1000?
 
Quote from: vox;741747
Please, ACA cards are 030 and offered for Classics. OS4 equivalent of middle or next to lowest solution would be some of SAM 440 models on different frequencies, that cost less then some of Classic expansions on net. Used. Today.

You really don't get it. My point is that innovation does not have to come with a huge price tag. Jens could have gone for a 040, 060 or PPC card instead of the 020/030 but the cost would have priced most users out.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 25, 2013, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: Duce;742139
The vast majority of this world cannot afford a Ferrari, but I don't see people rising en masse and picketing the streetcorners in Maranello claiming that the Ferrari Corporation is the Devil incarnate :)

Ferraris are worth their prestige as their quality is high. Comparing the X1000 to a Ferrari is like comparing chalk to cheese - one is refined the other is a work in progress.
 
Out of curiosity have the manufacturers of the X1000 guaranteed that all features will be implemented in full on future Amiga OS 4 releases or will they just ignore the X1000 once it is discontinued in favour of the X2000?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 08:20:11 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742140
...You really don't get it. My point is that innovation does not have to come with a huge price tag. Jens could have gone for a 040, 060 or PPC card instead of the 020/030 but the cost would have priced most users out.

 Sorry I don't get your last point.  I'm thinking the sentence is self contradictory.

As to the Duce.  Gotta love the Duce. Refreshing.
The point there is there's a cheaper option but you want the new option on your terms.  This is a well known psychological trait of us humans called product envy.  We don't need a Ferrari but we want one because someone else has one.  That's not fair, I can't afford it. It has to be someone elses fault. So then it has to be that it's either the owner of the Ferrari did something wrong, or Ferrari themselves.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 08:26:56 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742140
Truly you have more money than sense if you believe that a X1000 is worth the equivalent of 125 Pi's. What is the wholesale cost of producing a X1000?
 
You really don't get it. My point is that innovation does not have to come with a huge price tag. Jens could have gone for a 040, 060 or PPC card instead of the 020/030 but the cost would have priced most users out.

Truly, ACA is well placed as 030 offers enough but way more then 020. But that was the idea. Also even ACA is a new hardware, it copies exactly what existed before, so isn`t that much of a innovation as replication in modern standards for fair price.

With X1000 they have tried to do high end, what would be beyond 060 in Classic league.

So again, apples and bannanas.

And when you look to price of high end used Classics, they often surpass
prices of new SAM 440/460.

Who is expensive then?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 08:29:02 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742141
Ferraris are worth their prestige as their quality is high. Comparing the X1000 to a Ferrari is like comparing chalk to cheese - one is refined the other is a work in progress.
 
Out of curiosity have the manufacturers of the X1000 guaranteed that all features will be implemented in full on future Amiga OS 4 releases or will they just ignore the X1000 once it is discontinued in favour of the X2000?

It is Ferrari of OS4 World.

Yes, AOS 4.2 should support X1000 fully and X2000 is replacement board based on foundation of experience with X1000, basically kind of same board designed around more avail CPU.

It would be possible to wait for AOS 4.2 before X1000 launch, but then yet we would not have what to critisise

Quote
Truly you have more money than sense if you believe that a X1000 is  worth the equivalent of 125 Pi's. What is the wholesale cost of  producing a X1000?

I find Pi nice project for those needing first computer in less developed countries, but no interest at it all other then that.
Its not all in quantities.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 08:33:37 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742136
"We need to build computers for the masses, not the classes". Jack Tramiel.

If it was Atari I would agree.

That motto was true just for lower end Amigas like A500,A600 and A1200 but they were always crippled for pro use unless heavily expanded, and prices of expansion and high end models were for the classes.

Not that I wouldn`t like to see mass produced Amigas again, what A-EON and ACube do is what is currently possible on a very small market. Comparing it to Amiga glory of 90s is like comparing early days of IBM PC XT when it was unknown so they paid Dirty DOS for it, with its today glory. Just in our case its other way around. Our glory days are past.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 08:34:26 AM
Quote from: vox;742144
... it copies exactly what existed before, so isn`t that much of a innovation as replication in modern standards for fair price.


That's were my head was and why I didn't get Megamig's point. I'm not saying its not a fantastic effort and product. I luv Jen's products and respect him immensely.

And Jack just copied Henry; "Cars for the people". Jack was good a copying acquiring and mass production.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 08:38:11 AM
There would be no bashing of x1000 if there was a cheap less than
200 Eur alternative on the AOS4 market like there is for Morphos ...

Sam 440 and 460 are not that alternative because only the
motherboard + CPU costs more than that and ACube is making
no more money than Trevor which is the fact everybody seem
to be forgetting ...

Why do you need "custom" motherboard anyway ?

When you put it in the tower you will never see it again
unless it breaks down , if there was a PowerMac G5 motherboard in there you wouldn't even know the difference.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 25, 2013, 08:49:46 AM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742148
There would be no bashing of x1000 if there was a cheap less than
200 Eur alternative on the AOS4 market like there is for Morphos ...


Even in the Commodore days, Amigas were considerably higher than that price for the low-end models. The only reason MorphOS is so cheap is because they're all mass-produced but obsolete second-hand models (and I mean that literally, not in a derogative sense).
Comparing Apples and Bananas again here.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: itix on July 25, 2013, 08:53:20 AM
Quote from: gertsy;742142
Sorry I don't get your last point.  I'm thinking the sentence is self contradictory.

As to the Duce.  Gotta love the Duce. Refreshing.
The point there is there's a cheaper option but you want the new option on your terms.  This is a well known psychological trait of us humans called product envy.  We don't need a Ferrari but we want one because someone else has one.  That's not fair, I can't afford it. It has to be someone elses fault. So then it has to be that it's either the owner of the Ferrari did something wrong, or Ferrari themselves.


I think you missed the point. Majority of motorists dont even consider buying Ferrari because
 a) it is expensive
 b) as a car it is not very practical
 c) you cant buy Ferrari anywhere
 d) there is no Ferrari Compact, Ferrari Van, Ferrari Pickup nor Ferrari Off-road

Instead they go to buy Fiat Grande Punto instead with kid seats and go to Italian Walmart to buy a discount pizza. And it makes sense. You cant pack your family to Ferrari, can you?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: itix on July 25, 2013, 08:54:13 AM
Quote from: spirantho;742150
Even in the Commodore days, Amigas were considerably higher than that price for the low-end models. The only reason MorphOS is so cheap is because they're all mass-produced but obsolete second-hand models (and I mean that literally, not in a derogative sense).
Comparing Apples and Bananas again here.


But indeed Amiga 500 sold the best and is the most memorable Amiga.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 08:58:28 AM
Quote from: spirantho;742150
Even in the Commodore days, Amigas were considerably higher than that price for the low-end models. The only reason MorphOS is so cheap is because they're all mass-produced but obsolete second-hand models (and I mean that literally, not in a derogative sense).
Comparing Apples and Bananas again here.

No I don't think they are that much different ...

Motherboards based on say Sis 745 chipset or on Intel 945GZ chipset
are all the same even if they are produced by Asus,MSI,Epox,IBM or
anyone else ... PPC Chipsets in those old Macs are almost the same
thing as chipset used in AmigaOne x1000 ...

When you pay 3000 $ for it you are not supporting AmigaOS 4 developers , you are not supporting Trevor or Acube , you are supporting Freescale
and Varisys with that money because they will get the lion's share of
that price ...

I can see the need for having custom case,keyboard,mouse or even better having some cool piece of hardware like Catweasel or FPGA card designed
to give you Amiga experience , but I can see no rational reason why you
would want to reinvent the old Mac in the form of Amiga motherboard ...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: itix on July 25, 2013, 09:05:04 AM
Quote from: vox;742146

That motto was true just for lower end Amigas like A500,A600 and A1200 but they were always crippled for pro use unless heavily expanded, and prices of expansion and high end models were for the classes.


Actually Amiga 500 had better expansion options than Amiga 1000 that flopped due to its instability issues and high price. Expansion boards for Amiga 2000 were not that common and in practice it was on par with Amiga 500.

After all Amiga 500 received wide range of expansion options and they were relatively affordable.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 09:20:02 AM
Quote from: itix;742155
Actually Amiga 500 had better expansion options than Amiga 1000 that flopped due to its instability issues and high price. Expansion boards for Amiga 2000 were not that common and in practice it was on par with Amiga 500.

After all Amiga 500 received wide range of expansion options and they were relatively affordable.

Amiga 4000 was half the price of the 040 Mac and it was slighly less
expensive than 486 PC with the same speed with monitor hd sound card
and everything else ...

Amiga 500 which you could use without monitor,hd or sound card was
the cheapest thing available at the time that could be compared to
PC and Apple ... Except humble Atari ST with which you also got
a free monitor for the price of Amiga ...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 09:40:51 AM
Quote from: itix;742155
...Expansion boards for Amiga 2000 were not that common and in practice it was on par with Amiga 500....


Wha?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 09:44:40 AM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742156
Amiga 4000 was ...... and it was slighly less
expensive than 486 PC with the same speed with monitor hd sound card
and everything else ...
...


Not saying the statement's not true but comparing a plain hamburger from one shop against a hamburger with the lot from another shop and saying their price is the same is another "wha?".
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 25, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
yet again there is two major points surfacing to justify high proce of "amiga" hardware:
1. development costs, especially drivers. supporting further "amiga" develoment.
2. comparison to somehow interpreted prices of genuine amiga in its greatest age

ad.1:the development costs for such a board are considerable, no doubt, therefore it should be avoided. and in case it must be developed it should be best developed by genuine amiga-related companies like individual computers or perhaps acube (although it seems acube designs are based on reference designs anyway, correct me if im wrong). as someone else pointed out, "supporting further development" argument is not valid in this case. paing high prices we support uk military companies, not "amiga". thats where money goes (as example: the rediculous price of remaining stock of pasemi cpu).

as for driver support. sure i trust, it is a lot of work. but its surely less work to support particular narrowly chosen chipsets like those of sam series and x1k than the whole variety of them (it has been even used as genuine argument against x86 switch). yet there is aros support for a wide choice of devices and aros developers also support os4 and other alternatives with their development. instead hyperion has problems to deliver driver support for its own dedicated hardware and this task has been taken over by hardware vendors (trevor admits it). in all due respect to hans readeon drivers, i cant believe driver development is so much harder for os4 devs than for aros team, lat alone morphos.

ad2: amigas may have been expensive, still not so expensive in comparison to other systems of its age, considering their possibilities, others have told that. as soon as commodore amiga has lost its price/performance advantage and has been left behind the wide audience left, and even hardcore fans left one by one. trying to justify current prices by this failed politics that has lead to the decline of genuine amiga must be taken as a cruel joke, sorry. it only suggests it all being a dead end anyway.

i hate to repeat this over and over, but since others repeat their mantra too im left with no choice, sorry.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: gertsy;742163
Not saying the statement's not true but comparing a plain hamburger from one shop against a hamburger with the lot from another shop and saying their price is the same is another "wha?".

You're absolutely right and I should have posted in another thread ...

But I don't think it's that much different , computer is a computer and
040 was actually faster computer system than 486 (unless you bought
100 Mhz 486 with fast and expensive Edo RAM) and AGA had better
graphics capabilities than most VGA cards on the PC and it was just
as good as any Nubus Mac ...

Mac even got sued for claiming that Quadras (i think) had million of colors
when all it had was 256 out of millions (or thousands I can't remember) ...

Amiga 4000 was most advanced thing on the general consumer market for it's price tag when it came out ...

I will stay with post like this one out of this thread from now ...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 25, 2013, 11:11:30 AM
So the X1000 is the (Apple) Lisa of Amigas?

I agree that Individual computers are not the first to produce an Amiga accelerator but to imply that the ACA is not a 'new' design is ridiculous.

Jens is not producing Amiga products for charity and stores such as AmigaKit are not selling them at a loss.

So it goes back to my original argument which is if Individual computers are able to deliver products at a reasonable price why is that not possible when it comes to the X1000?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Hans_ on July 25, 2013, 11:16:48 AM
Quote from: Megamig;742174
So it goes back to my original argument which is if Individual computers are able to deliver products at a reasonable price why is that not possible when it comes to the X1000?


It's quite simple really. As impressive as Individual Computers' products are, their accelerators have a fraction of the complexity of the A1-X1000. They run at lower frequencies which makes design easier; the components are simpler, and they have fewer components. There is no way that you can compare an accelerator for a "classic Amiga" to a full ATX motherboard with a >1GHz CPU.

Hans
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 11:18:04 AM
Quote from: vox;742087
Quote from: Acill;742084
Oh spare me the crap about how hard and expensive it is. I work at intel and see other engineers doing things here all the time for nearly nothing on hardware they just toss together to test ideas. As mentioned if the Raspberry-PI guys can build a machine as cheap as they do I dont want to hear how hard it is to get it done. I see it every single day I go to work.
Good. We are all eager to see someone (you) producing competition, a PPC board of any kind that will be supported by MorphOS/AmigaOS 4, including software support afterwards. Its always easy to say something someone else is suppose to do is easy.


"PPC boards" is a problem, not a solution!

;)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Hans_ on July 25, 2013, 11:29:49 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;742166
yet again there is two major points surfacing to justify high proce of "amiga" hardware:
1. development costs, especially drivers. supporting further "amiga" develoment.

That's just a reality of the situation, no matter who produces the hardware.

Quote from: wawrzon;742166
as for driver support. sure i trust, it is a lot of work. but its surely less work to support particular narrowly chosen chipsets like those of sam series and x1k than the whole variety of them (it has been even used as genuine argument against x86 switch). yet there is aros support for a wide choice of devices and aros developers also support os4 and other alternatives with their development. instead hyperion has problems to deliver driver support for its own dedicated hardware and this task has been taken over by hardware vendors (trevor admits it). in all due respect to hans readeon drivers, i cant believe driver development is so much harder for os4 devs than for aros team, lat alone morphos.


It isn't "so much harder for OS4 devs than for AROS or Morphos devs." With AROS there is also a significant lag between new hardware shipping and drivers being written let alone stable. Morphos support for hardware in old PowerPC Macs also took a long time. AFAIK, some Mac hardware still isn't supported yet.

Hans
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
Quote from: Hans_;742175
Quote from: Megamig;742174
So it goes back to my original argument which is if Individual computers are able to deliver products at a reasonable price why is that not possible when it comes to the X1000?


It's quite simple really. As impressive as Individual Computers' products are, their accelerators have a fraction of the complexity of the A1-X1000. They run at lower frequencies which makes design easier; the components are simpler, and they have fewer components. There is no way that you can compare an accelerator for a "classic Amiga" to a full ATX motherboard with a >1GHz CPU.

Hans


"the A1-X1000 complexity" is a problem, not a solution!

;)

Seriously, Jens Schönfeld makes his own HW, he has the competence and doesn't need to invoice the time spent to anyone, he sets his own price on the time spent. Trevor Dickinson doesn't have this in-house competence, hence he paid an enormous price for the X1000 development (can't remember the sum, but it was huge IIRC).

The Xena/Xorro probably didn't help. It definitely increased "the A1-X1000 complexity" (bigger PCB, possibly more PCB layers, more components, longer development time (all paid for!), more time for testing (also paid for!), etc, etc). And for what exactly? Nobody knows, not even Trevor as it seems. It was just a "cool thing" (really?) that nobody has found any use for.

Less is more when it comes to complexity!

:)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: utri007 on July 25, 2013, 11:39:53 AM
It is true that 030 accelerator for A1200 is not comparable to X1000, it would be almost as expensive if Jens would do PPC accelerator with same prosessor.

But there is a point, it would be perfectly possible to produce Sam440ep Flex level mobo and sell it less than 100€. It would require order minium 10000 mobos to get price that low. I belive that  440ep CPU is less than 15€
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Hans_ on July 25, 2013, 11:44:55 AM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;742179
Seriously, Jens Schönfeld makes his own HW, he has the competence and doesn't need to invoice the time spent to anyone, he sets his own price on the time spent. Trevor Dickinson doesn't have this in-house competence, hence he paid an enormous price for the X1000 development (can't remember the sum, but it was huge IIRC).


Seriously, even if Jens designed something like the A1-X1000, it would still cost a heap more than one of his accelerators sub-100 MHz accelerators.

Hans


P.S. What you call "an enormous price" is what you can expect designing a modern motherboard to cost.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 25, 2013, 11:59:52 AM
@hans
jens, judging by his posts on a1k, considers ppc cpu as not reliable and therefore not worth to base designs on. it might be suspected an excuse to cover his lack of development skills in the more complex and higher frequency area, but i dont think that it is.

jens has lately proposed (quite obvious) a concept of hybrid fpga/foreign cpu (in his case mips soc) accelerator/amiga. fpga taking care of amiga chipset legacy core, the foreign cpu running 68k emu/jit (?). his estimation at parts costs were 20 eur.

eh, edit: and observing jens development threads on a1k he is for one very responsive to public, his politics of disclosure and information is very convenient, there is almost never any flaw in it, and where it is it is being discussed openly. secondly one can see he is very reasonable about every single resource, he is considering every aspect of design, every development cost and every necessary and unnecessary part to keep his expenses as well as the retail price of the product down.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 12:21:11 PM
Quote from: Hans_;742182
Seriously, even if Jens designed something like the A1-X1000, it would still cost a heap more than one of his accelerators sub-100 MHz accelerators.

What you call "an enormous price" is what you can expect designing a modern motherboard to cost.

The Pegasos and the Pegasos 2 was dead-cheap compared to the X1000, heck, if memory doesn't serve me wrong it was even cheaper than the Sam (while being more powerful, and several years earlier). Those designs were complex and full-blown motherboards.

Just like Jens/Individual Computers, Genesi/bPlan also has in-house competence. But the thing is - not that many years ago, Genesi offered the community to actually *pay for development* of a new PPC motherboard!

The end product would have been:

   - Flex form factor - MPC8610@1Ghz (or faster if it is economically feasable)
- 4x SATA 2 connectors
- 4x USB2 ports
- 2x Gigabit Ethernet ports
- Sound ports (Audio Out, Mic In)
- 1 PCI slot
- 1 PCI-e slot 1x
- 1 PCI-e slot 8x


The financing of the development would take place through bounties over at power2people.org, it would be 6 phases (IIRC), the result would be completely open sourced and community owned. The final cost of all stages would be $60.000 IIRC (or was it EUR? Doesn't really matter for the sake of the discussion), and this would also include a Freescale sponsored developer program with free boards donated to interesting development projects (like Genesi/Freescale has done on several occasions before).

IIRC the general opinion in the community was that this was way to expensive, few people chipped in. Yet it would only have taken ~20 people paying the X1000 end-user price to finance the entire development cost. This wasn't a charity project, it was something Genesi would "invoice" the community, because they didn't want to invest anymore in PPC themselves.

And the X1000? Well, "Trevor said that it cost over US$400,000 to develop the X1000."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36690&forum=2&start=80#685861

I see a difference!

And frankly, I am astonished that the plug wasn't pulled on this!

:confused:

(But I'm perhaps even more astonished that the Xorro/Xena is being done all over again!)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 25, 2013, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: utri007;742180

But there is a point, it would be perfectly possible to produce Sam440ep Flex level mobo and sell it less than 100€. It would require order minium 10000 mobos to get price that low. I belive that  440ep CPU is less than 15€


You're right in as much as you say you could get the 440 Flex mobo produced for less than 100 euros, but no way could it be sold for that.

You have to factor in:

Manufacturing cost
Hardware Development cost
Software Development cost
Profit (Acube aren't a charity)
Distribution cost
Taxes

Plus if they made 10000 of them it'd take years to sell out. The low demand for Amiga-like OSes isn't as much to do with prices as people think, otherwise MorphOS and particularly AROS users would massively outnumber AmigaOS 4 users.

Personally, I think 270 Euros for a Sam 440 Flex (the current price) is a good one, when you consider the quantities we're talking about.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 25, 2013, 02:04:28 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742169
You're absolutely right and I should have posted in another thread ...
....
Amiga 4000 was most advanced thing on the general consumer market for it's price tag when it came out ...
....
I will stay with post like this one out of this thread from now ...


Why? its just a forum thread. Robust conversation is what it's all about.  We don't have to all agree.  How boring would that be.

Have your say Blizz1220 and if people like me don't agree just say "meh". Or "I disagree."

My pet hate is negative comments about people who are doers and creators. And in the absence of consistency I try to be consistent in defending them.  

I'm also defensive of people selling something for a price they consider marketable. Free commerce will sort it out in the end.  If it's too expensive no one will buy it. That's the real meaning of too expensive from a commercial perspective.  Not the one popularly used as a cover for "I can't afford it" or "I can't justify paying that much"

[Rocking up to Italian Walmart in a Ferrari, arrh made me laugh]
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on July 25, 2013, 02:59:30 PM
Quote from: spirantho;742189
Personally, I think 270 Euros for a Sam 440 Flex (the current price) is a good one

I agree that this price is acceptable, but the 667MHz "G2" CPU is *way* too weak and not worth it.

When the Pegasos 2 reached its EOL (7 years ago, time flies) its price was similar ($399 /~EUR €300), but with a 1GHz G4 that runs circles around that Sam. And most people consider the Peg2 to be a bit weak; the old G4 Mac's we use with MorphOS today is almost 2x the speed of the Peg2 G4, and this is where heavy web browsing and media playback starts becoming enjoyable. I have no personal experience of the G5's, but the situation improves even more of course.

I would actually consider paying up to €500 for a new PPC motherboard for MorphOS even today (a bit more for a system of course), but then it would have to show some improvement to what I already have, I'd expect a step up instead of a step down. I would at least expect it to play x.264 bitstreams in software/CPU in full HD (1080p) without any problems, and with the silence of a G4. Can it do that, then I'd be interested, even though €500 is a bit expensive, because then the performance would at least cover many of my non-professional everyday areas of use (casual Internet and media consumption), even if it's obviously still going to be severely under-powered compared to real 2013 desktop HW. If not, I'd rather stick with the much cheaper G4 Mac HW that at least plays most 720p bitstreams (not really interested in those hot and bulky G5's).

Those "G2" class CPU's struggle with DVD resolution MPEG-2 streams, and I see no reason to buy something like that at all in 2013, no matter the price. It wouldn't just be a step back, it would be *several* steps back (or far more than a decade back in time, in performance comparison). In that class you can still get a $99/€75 Efika 5k2 brand new from Directron.com. It's a little slower than the Sam (400MHz instead of 667MHz), it has some oddities, quirks and limitations, and it's not as expandable, but at $99 the question is if it's not a better buy? I mean, those slow "G2's" aren't really useful anyway, so...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 25, 2013, 04:42:09 PM
@takemehomegrandma

Actually, with reservations - I mostly agree with you.
I don't agree the 667MHz CPU is too weak, because my Sam440ep is a 600MHz machine and is great. Not going to win any speed demon awards, but I don't want it to - nor do I want to play 3D games (got a PS3 for that) or highdef videos (PS3 does that too).

But, that aside, we all wish that we could go back to those times. Back in those days, Apple were pumping cash into the PowerPC which meant that G4 CPUs could be had easily and cheaply, especially when the G5 came out. Hence the price of the Peg II was much lower considering the power it was.
The problem is that these days, PowerPC is still going and still healthy, but most of the development is in embedded CPUs, which require less power - hence the ones which do have the power (e.g. PA6T) cost an arm and a leg, and possibly your first-born child.

This is the conundrum we're faced with - technologically we were in a better position in 2006 because we could hang on the coat-tails of Apple. We can't do that any more, so we now have to wait for technology to catch up with the power of Apple CPUs. For those of us who bought a G4 machine, anything less than a lump of dough is going to be a downgrade, which is unfortunate but unavoidable... at least for now. As technology of embedded CPUs catches up, we should eventually surpass G4 class CPUs at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742154
No I don't think they are that much different ...
Motherboards based on say Sis 745 chipset or on Intel 945GZ chipset
are all the same even if they are produced by Asus,MSI,Epox,IBM or
anyone else ... PPC Chipsets in those old Macs are almost the same
thing as chipset used in AmigaOne x1000 ...


No, they aren`t. In simple words Macs are mostly using IDE, DDR, AGP while X1000 uses SATA2, DDR2, PCI-E x16, in PC terms its about 2 generations ahead. Same goes for SOCCs Acube used. They might be "G2-G3 CPU class" (after all its embbeded sys) but at least I/O is faster. That gives quite better overall experience then with older boards, and tests prove that. In pure CPU only benchmarks both AMCC SOCs used by Acube and PA Semi perform poor. But old Macs kind of remind me of old PCs logic where CPU would be "muscles" on high frequency but rest of I/O components and RAM would be decreasing the performance, crippling overall experience.

Off course, this is from today point of view, at time those Macs were new, that were the high end standards.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: vox;742214
No, they aren`t. In simple words Macs are mostly using IDE, DDR, AGP while X1000 uses SATA2, DDR2, PCI-E x16, in PC terms its about 2 generations ahead. Same goes for SOCCs Acube used. They might be "G2-G3 CPU class" (after all its embbeded sys) but at least I/O is faster. That gives quite better overall experience then with older boards, and tests prove that. In pure CPU only benchmarks both AMCC SOCs used by Acube and PA Semi perform poor. But old Macs kind of remind me of old PCs logic where CPU would be "muscles" on high frequency but rest of I/O components and RAM would be decreasing the performance, crippling overall experience.

Off course, this is from today point of view, at time those Macs were new, that were the high end standards.

G5 from 2005 (codename "Cypher") had Dual core , up to 16 Gb of DDR2 ,
PCI-E x16 (_not so sure_ too lazy to check) and USB 2.0 ...

And you can get it for extra cheap price right now ...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 06:27:17 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742216
G5 from 2005 (codename "Cypher") had Dual core , up to 16 Gb of DDR2 ,
PCI-E x16 (_not so sure_ too lazy to check) and USB 2.0 ...

And you can get it for extra cheap price right now ...

True for CPU, but I don`t see Mac G5 or MacPro PPC with such a CPU and bus. So I don`t see how you could get it and what would you do with it in MOS that doesn`t support PCI-E cards at all.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 07:02:14 PM
Quote from: vox;742218
True for CPU, but I don`t see Mac G5 or MacPro PPC with such a CPU and bus. So I don`t see how you could get it and what would you do with it in MOS that doesn`t support PCI-E cards at all.

This should be posted in "AEon strategy" thread as it is comparing
apples and water melons but still is somehow related :

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 07:03:45 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742166
ad.1:the development costs for such a board are considerable, no doubt, therefore it should be avoided. and in case it must be developed it should be best developed by genuine amiga-related companies like individual computers or perhaps acube (although it seems acube designs are based on reference designs anyway, correct me if im wrong). as someone else pointed out, "supporting further development" argument is not valid in this case. paing high prices we support uk military companies, not "amiga". thats where money goes (as example: the rediculous price of remaining stock of pasemi cpu).

Individual computers, to best of my knowledge, never developed any PPC board. Acube did, but its a reference design around SOCC, so Varisys was a good and maybe only choice. We pay all the steps to the end price, but I am glad to see Acube and A-EON use their profits to develop newer and better models (SAM 460/X2000) so I see "further development" valid. Profit margin may be higher due to many risks (small quantities, their own investment in production) but I like to see profit used to keep it running.


Quote
 instead hyperion has problems to deliver driver support for its own  dedicated hardware and this task has been taken over by hardware vendors  (trevor admits it). in all due respect to hans readeon drivers, i cant  believe driver development is so much harder for os4 devs than for aros  team, lat alone morphos.

I suppose driver model isn`t the same, and quite well known people like Hans and Layle took considerable time to get the job done. Its different when support comes from vendor and when people have to get everything on their own. In MOS Case, OS development team do the support and Hyperion has made that (bad!) policy of hw manufacturer being responsible, which agains narrows possible partners.

Quote
as soon as commodore amiga has lost its price/performance advantage and  has been left behind the wide audience left, and even hardcore fans left  one by one. trying to justify current prices by this failed politics  that has lead to the decline of genuine amiga must be taken as a cruel  joke, sorry. it only suggests it all being a dead end anyway.
.[/QUOTE]

No, people used to buy expensive PPC cards quite a lot, but when all software companies abandoned shrinking market, that was a complete end for most of. I will here remind people that Commodore also planed to ditch Amiga (68k, AGA, AmigaOS) completely with AAA project anyway and go for ... Windows NT if I recall it good. So death of Commodore was kind of good thing, even it meant further struggle, that has brought OS 3.5-OS 4.1
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 25, 2013, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Crumb;741696
Your comparison is flawed as the difference is that a few weeks ago I bought a cute 12" iBook G4/1.33Ghz with shipping included for 80€, that's pocket money I can use to "play" with my favourite OS and no wife/gf will complain about that. Do you think spending 80€ is the same as spending 1000, 2000 or 3000€.

I've got you beat on that one.
My 1.42 GHz iBook only set me back $70.
And it works quite well.
Its just painful that the OS key is in the highest tier (meaning I almost have to spend twice as much for the license).

Quote from: Crumb;741696
Trevor efforts are important but keep in mind a RadeonHD driver is  almost useless without 3D&Video acceleration (read: there's no much  noticeable difference in 2D with let's say a R9800).

Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.
I was exchanging e-mail with Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) for months before it was commonly known who A-eon's partner was.
Trevor picked the perfect guys to lead this.

Quote from: Crumb;741696
All in all. I don't think it's bashing, it's frustration from the Amiga  community seeing that OS4.x Team is heading their favourite OS to  disaster.

I try not to bash OS4.
And I still get comments like "we're only developing for 'real' AmigaOS".
What everyone seems to forget is that all the MorphOS developers are former AmigaOS developers.
Some of the best, as a matter of fact.

This fiction that pride in your creation has led to a "red vs. blue war" is ridiculous.

All it done is chase the knowledgeable MorphOS supporters off this site.

Anyone notice that Piru doesn't post here anymore?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 25, 2013, 07:35:09 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742224
Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.

That would explain a lot ...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 25, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
Quote from: vox;742218
True for CPU, but I don`t see Mac G5 or MacPro PPC with such a CPU and bus. So I don`t see how you could get it and what would you do with it in MOS that doesn`t support PCI-E cards at all.

Yet...
And a SAM460 port was announced awhile ago.
Still, the most powerful PCI-e card for the G5 is only an X1900GT.
So, maybe we should be supporting the further development of supported hardware.

Right now, the G5 port only supports 1 GB of memory, and there seem to be some bugs in the Radeon 9800 driver.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 25, 2013, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742224
I've got you beat on that one.
My 1.42 GHz iBook only set me back $70.
And it works quite well.
Its just painful that the OS key is in the highest tier (meaning I almost have to spend twice as much for the license).



Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.
I was exchanging e-mail with Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) for months before it was commonly known who A-eon's partner was.
Trevor picked the perfect guys to lead this.



I try not to bash OS4.
And I still get comments like "we're only developing for 'real' AmigaOS".
What everyone seems to forget is that all the MorphOS developers are former AmigaOS developers.
Some of the best, as a matter of fact.

This fiction that pride in your creation has led to a "red vs. blue war" is ridiculous.

All it done is chase the knowledgeable MorphOS supporters off this site.

Anyone notice that Piru doesn't post here anymore?


+1

While we are on the subject, can someone remind me who wrote OS4 and what they did for the Amiga scene before that?

Then we can list the MorphOS developers and what they did previously for the Amiga scene.

It should make for interesting reading no?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 25, 2013, 07:37:58 PM
Quote from: Blizz1220;742227
That would explain a lot ...

It actually does. Paul was never in favor of the PA6T.
He recommended Freescale's Qorlq line to me.
And those products have seen steady development since.

Quote from: nicholas;742229
+1

While we are on the subject, can someone remind me who wrote OS4 and what they did for the Amiga scene before that?

Then we can list the MorphOS developers and what they did previously for the Amiga scene.

It should make for interesting reading no?

Maybe we ought to compile that list.

My 1st vote for one persistent man would be Frank Mariak, the co-developer of the CyberGraph API (and still working on MorphOS video drivers).
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;742186

Just like Jens/Individual Computers, Genesi/bPlan also has in-house competence. But the thing is - not that many years ago, Genesi offered the community to actually *pay for development* of a new PPC motherboard!

The end product would have been:
   - Flex form factor - MPC8610@1Ghz (or faster if it is economically feasable)
- 4x SATA 2 connectors
- 4x USB2 ports
- 2x Gigabit Ethernet ports
- Sound ports (Audio Out, Mic In)
- 1 PCI slot
- 1 PCI-e slot 1x
- 1 PCI-e slot 8x
The financing of the development would take place through bounties over at power2people.org, it would be 6 phases (IIRC), the result would be completely open sourced and community owned. The final cost of all stages would be $60.000 IIRC (or was it EUR? Doesn't really matter for the sake of the discussion), and this would also include a Freescale sponsored developer program with free boards donated to interesting development projects (like Genesi/Freescale has done on several occasions before).

IIRC the general opinion in the community was that this was way to expensive, few people chipped in. Yet it would only have taken ~20 people paying the X1000 end-user price to finance the entire development cost. This wasn't a charity project, it was something Genesi would "invoice" the community, because they didn't want to invest anymore in PPC themselves.

Looks nice. But seems it never went even to development board
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/43

If it was presented to OS4 as viable platform, could saved the day.
But its still vapor.

If you could ensure both MOS team and OS4 team agreement to do OS ports and pushed the bounty more to both camps, it could succeed, hence would be no X1000. But now there is no this board, and there is X1000.

Quote
(But I'm perhaps even more astonished that the Xorro/Xena is being done all over again!)

Xena is 50$ chip and Xorro is modified PCI-E. It might yet prove useful, and open some interesting space to do something no board has done before. But I dislike propaganda it`s a transputer slot etc. that existed in early days.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;742179
"the A1-X1000 complexity" is a problem, not a solution!

Well, A1-X1000 is a solution to a problem of no high end Amiga.
Detailed analysis of this discussion would show:

a) There are people that hate they can`t get X1000 but would not get any other OS4 model (e.g SAMs or used Peg2/Old A1). Message to them is: I have been preparing 2 years financial and still will take loan of 5 years to complete it, paying higher import taxes and interests then you while I doubt you have lower wage then me. So it is possible, if you really want it.

b) There are people that want cheaper entry system, but they don`t find SAM 440 good offer for 250 euros. If we could enmass them to 600 personas, we could get lower price. Waiting for way better system for that money might not materialize soon - 100 euros is just OS4 license. Efika does cost 99$ but add 90 euros for MorphOS on top of it and you get less efficient system unexpandable at all for almost the same amounth.

c) There are people that bash X1000 just because they can, since they anyway have cheap and fast PPC Mac. Good for them, but again, I will ask the gents why they haven`t payed that PPC Mac when it was new and costed similarly? One day when X1000 becomes what PPC Macs are now it might be affordable too ...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 07:52:00 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742229
+1

While we are on the subject, can someone remind me who wrote OS4 and what they did for the Amiga scene before that?

Then we can list the MorphOS developers and what they did previously for the Amiga scene.

It should make for interesting reading no?

AmigaOS is direct continuation of AmigaOS no shame and no lie in that.
MorphOS and AROS are quite based from their own code, much pride in that.
Hyperion did just few game ports prior to OS4, but great ones that no one has done in Amiga world.

I have no doubts in MOS coders skills, wish we were one team, really.

Quote
Volim te BiH

You are originating from Bosnia? Nice :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: kickstart on July 25, 2013, 07:54:43 PM
@vox

d) Many people think that this ng machines has nothing to do with amiga.

Dont be elitist with the price, i cant understand why some people give reasons for implying that x1000 is an amiga.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 08:19:05 PM
Quote from: kickstart;742236
@vox

d) Many people think that this ng machines has nothing to do with amiga.

Dont be elitist with the price, i cant understand why some people give reasons for implying that x1000 is an amiga.

a) If we agree Amiga is only and only 68k/OCS-AGA then OS4/MOS/AROS are all unrelated. But that is way too die hard look as last CBM Amigas were PPC expanded often with RTG,MUI and AHI

b) If we do know Amiga history, we do know AmigaOS 4 is related to Amiga, as continuation of AmigaOS. I do not denie MorphOS and AROS of this heritage. Due to its past with Amiga Inc, AmigaOS owners own AmigaOne licence for hardware use.
c) We can agree, its not CBM Amiga. Its AmigaOne, as always intended to be PPC board that runs AmigaOS 4

AmigaOne is just what it is.PPC motherboard capable of running AOS 4.
I hope it could be cheaper, and draw more interest, but that task is up to A-EON. I am sure Trevor would be happy
if they could be cheaper and more attractive = selling in larger quantities and other way around :-)

Instead, I advise a positive way:
tell us what you believe could be better and included in next systems. Faster and cheaper CPU is already there. You wish Acube to do cheaper and faster entry system. I am to it. I am also looking eager to see MorphOS on DJ Nicks SAM 460 as PPC Macs are rare beast around here.Better driver support? Should be done deal with AOS 4.2

Price is simply not a thing any one of us holds hands on, especially in capitalism.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: itix on July 25, 2013, 08:22:39 PM
Quote from: gertsy;742161
Quote
...Expansion boards for Amiga 2000 were not that common and in practice it was on par with Amiga 500....
Wha?

Yep. Harddisks, memory expansions, accelerator boards, cd roms, expansion cartridges... and they were quite affordable.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 25, 2013, 08:44:57 PM
Quote from: vox;742234
Looks nice. But seems it never went even to development board
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/43

If it was presented to OS4 as viable platform, could saved the day.
But its still vapor.

If you could ensure both MOS team and OS4 team agreement to do OS ports and pushed the bounty more to both camps, it could succeed, hence would be no X1000. But now there is no this board, and there is X1000.

That is a dead issue and there are better processors than the 8610.

Quote from: vox;742234
Efika does cost 99$ but add 90 euros for MorphOS on top of it and you get less efficient system unexpandable at all for almost the same amounth.

License cost for the Efika is 49 EUR.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 09:38:12 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742250
] That is a dead issue and there are better processors than the 8610.

Sorry to hear that, it would be nice to see if Genesi would be open for other such bounty again, with any modern PPC board. I fear transition will not be a quick job, and sea of PPC Macs isn`t that endless.

Quote
License cost for the Efika is 49 EUR

Twice cheaper as any other? Nice. Sorry, I didn`t know that.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 25, 2013, 10:16:27 PM
Quote from: vox;742235
AmigaOS is direct continuation of AmigaOS no shame and no lie in that.

It's mostly a complete rewrite from scratch. Why do you think it took them so long to release the first version?

Even the Frieden brothers stated this on Ann.lu many years ago.

Quote
MorphOS and AROS are quite based from their own code, much pride in that.
Hyperion did just few game ports prior to OS4, but great ones that no one has done in Amiga world.

I was asking for names of coders. Let me start it off with a few, Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Harry Sintonen, Stefan Stuntz.

Your turn. ;)

Quote
I have no doubts in MOS coders skills, wish we were one team, really.

Benji boy put paid to any chance of that a long time ago.



Quote
You are originating from Bosnia? Nice :-)

No but I have Bosnian family members. :)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 25, 2013, 11:05:11 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742270
It's mostly a complete rewrite from scratch. Why do you think it took them so long to release the first version?

Even the Frieden brothers stated this on Ann.lu many years ago.

Surely now, but it started with OS 3.0 source ....

Quote
I was asking for names of coders. Let me start it off with a few, Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Harry Sintonen, Stefan Stuntz.

Your turn. ;)

http://www.morphos.de/team

As you do know, we poor bastards stand just with Frieden brothers and few other good men :-)

However, if you do take AmigaOS as continuation of AmigaOS, list looks good. And have some similar names.

Sadly its not the case today.

Quote
Benji boy put paid to any chance of that a long time ago.

Well, there is always hope of small market for example making people working together.

Quote
No but I have Bosnian family members. :)

Soon I ll start thinking everyone has a Bosnian family  :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 25, 2013, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742270
I was asking for names of coders. Let me start it off with a few, Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Harry Sintonen, Stefan Stuntz.
;)

And Fabien Coeurjoly, Mark Olsen, and André Siegel (and a lot of other people).

VS a couple of angry German's.

Not much of a challenge.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Fats on July 25, 2013, 11:12:22 PM
Quote from: Thorham;742026
That problem can be solved by hand optimizing the compiler output, so that's not necessarily an issue. It can also be solved by reimplementing AROS in assembly language (probably the best way). Yes, quite a chore, I know ;)


What I understood is that the gfx chipset driver are also a big contributor to the slowness of AROS m68k ATM.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 25, 2013, 11:16:26 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742224
I've got you beat on that one.
My 1.42 GHz iBook only set me back $70.
And it works quite well.
Its just painful that the OS key is in the highest tier (meaning I almost have to spend twice as much for the license).



Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.
I was exchanging e-mail with Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) for months before it was commonly known who A-eon's partner was.
Trevor picked the perfect guys to lead this.



I try not to bash OS4.
And I still get comments like "we're only developing for 'real' AmigaOS".
What everyone seems to forget is that all the MorphOS developers are former AmigaOS developers.
Some of the best, as a matter of fact.

This fiction that pride in your creation has led to a "red vs. blue war" is ridiculous.

All it done is chase the knowledgeable MorphOS supporters off this site.

Anyone notice that Piru doesn't post here anymore?


Nobody doubts that some of the MorphOS developer belong to the best developers on the platform. And someone likes to mention "MorphOS is Amiga done right" what is propably not wrong :-)

The problem I have with the MorphOS developers (at least to a certain degree) is their "closed" attitude. They made some of the best technologies and software packages but failed to see the chance to create standards. Examples are MUI, CybergraphX, OWB. All closed source. What I have read is that key components of OWB are now closed source too (in external components) so even if someone would port it important features would not be there. If I understood it right is HTML5 support in a closed source component. That makes new versions of OWB useless on other platforms. They think it gives them a advantage but I think it is wrong and shortsighted to act this way.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 25, 2013, 11:27:17 PM
Quote from: Fats;742284
What I understood is that the gfx chipset driver are also a big contributor to the slowness of AROS m68k ATM.


you mean amiga chipset driver? because rtg on 68k is driven via p96 wrapper, which of course may also introduce some lag, but it isnt that slow in general. rather there are some situations when intuition or layers seems busy looping or something like that. would be good to know how nail down the cause. may be that x86 version has similar issues but masked by overall speed of hardware.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742285
Nobody doubts that some of the MorphOS developer belong to the best developers on the platform. And someone likes to mention "MorphOS is Amiga done right" what is propably not wrong :-)

The problem I have with the MorphOS developers (at least to a certain degree) is their "closed" attitude. They made some of the best technologies and software packages but failed to see the chance to create standards. Examples are MUI, CybergraphX, OWB. All closed source. What I have read is that key components of OWB are now closed source too (in external components) so even if someone would port it important features would not be there. If I understood it right is HTML5 support in a closed source component. That makes new versions of OWB useless on other platforms. They think it gives them a advantage but I think it is wrong and shortsighted to act this way.

I will cede that part of the argument to you.
Although, since MUI4 comes from an  outside developer, nothing stops OS4 from adopting a version of it.
Sharing the CybergraphX libraries also would have been helpful.

But you must remember no other Amiga related OS except AROS is open.
If the Frieden's had asked for help earlier, then this huge delay in releases might have been reduced.

Also, MorphOS is a commercial product. You wouldn't want your source code copied. That was a unjustified charge Dave Haynie made about Ralph Schmidt's work years ago. That and Ben's comments haven't fostered any great sense of community.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 12:18:02 AM
as you certainly know my main interest is AROS and it is open. I do not know if there is any support regarding Zune but I am not involved there so I cannot say.

I know that there were a lot of bashings and negativ emotions between expecially devlopers of AmigaOS and MorphOS. But whatever the reasons are and who has caused it and is to blame the result is that all 3 platforms are similar but in details very different so that most developers are only supporting one platform in the end. Examples are differences in GUI (MUI4, Zune, MUI3.9/Reaction), RTG (Cybergraphics3, Cybergraphics5, P96). The list is endless and if you dig a little and compare even similar things are solved different and of course incompatible. At the end it forces developers to decide for one platform.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 12:32:31 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742299
as you certainly know my main interest is AROS and it is open. I do not know if there is any support regarding Zune but I am not involved there so I cannot say.

I know that there were a lot of bashings and negativ emotions between expecially devlopers of AmigaOS and MorphOS. But whatever the reasons are and who has caused it and is to blame the result is that all 3 platforms are similar but in details very different so that most developers are only supporting one platform in the end. Examples are differences in GUI (MUI4, Zune, MUI3.9/Reaction), RTG (Cybergraphics3, Cybergraphics5, P96). The list is endless and if you dig a little and compare even similar things are solved different and of course incompatible. At the end it forces developers to decide for one platform.

True, although Zune is pretty close.
Reaction seems a bit cruder, but like said I'm sure Stefan Stuntz wouldn't mind being paid for another MUI4 port.
We all use a similar USB stack.
All three OS' are 3.1 API compatible.
There isn't that much difference.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 09:09:31 AM
Stefan Stuntz still lives? I tried to register MUI last year, the payment worked but I did not get any answer. I also sent a email and got no answer too. Hardly creating trust at me...

A basic question. MUI4 is property of Stuntz and licensed to MorphOS-Team and still in development by him?

I know of developers who maintain different sourcecodes what is not very efficient. And the problem are not the "big" differences but the small ones (f.e. CybergraphX related). I experienced that a couple of times when testing 68k applications and games on AROS 68k. It can be non-implemented AROS routines or different behavior/parameters. Often small differences can causes crashes (or at least non-working software) and are difficult to find if you do not know the different OSs. New developers from outside (who we will hopefully win in future) will not be willing to invest lots of time testing their software on different platforms and decide for one platform (they see the most potential in). Alternativ there are multi-platforms tools too who hide the differences but these tools are mostly not suited for every task. So by forcing developers to decide for MorphOS or against it could strike back on them depending on the situation.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 09:24:04 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742347
Stefan Stuntz still lives? I tried to register MUI last year, the payment worked but I did not get any answer. I also sent a email and got no answer too. Hardly creating trust at me...

A basic question. MUI4 is property of Stuntz and licensed to MorphOS-Team and still in development by him?

I know of developers who maintain different sourcecodes what is not very efficient. And the problem are not the "big" differences but the small ones (f.e. CybergraphX related). I experienced that a couple of times when testing 68k applications and games on AROS 68k. It can be non-implemented AROS routines or different behavior/parameters. Often small differences can causes crashes (or at least non-working software) and are difficult to find if you do not know the different OSs. New developers from outside (who we will hopefully win in future) will not be willing to invest lots of time testing their software on different platforms and decide for one platform (they see the most potential in). Alternativ there are multi-platforms tools too who hide the differences but these tools are mostly not suited for every task. So by forcing developers to decide for MorphOS or against it could strike back on them depending on the situation.

I believe that the MorphOS developers stopped paying him and that he is no longer actively working for them.
But I have heard some rumblings in the OS4 community about licensing a version.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Haranguer on July 26, 2013, 10:23:10 AM
Stefan is still alive and programming, but, sadly, his A3000 isn't, so he's having a little trouble generating personalised licences for MUI.  I emailed him and he provided a workaround.

As to the topic of the thread - keep bashing the X1000.  Those of us who have one (myself included) need someone to laugh at.  The X1000 rocks :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: antikk on July 26, 2013, 10:24:10 AM
What do you put in coders? Coding apps or working on os sources?

Quote from: nicholas;742270
It's mostly a complete rewrite from scratch. Why do you think it took them so long to release the first version?

Even the Frieden brothers stated this on Ann.lu many years ago.



I was asking for names of coders. Let me start it off with a few, Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Harry Sintonen, Stefan Stuntz.

Your turn. ;)



Benji boy put paid to any chance of that a long time ago.





No but I have Bosnian family members. :)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 10:28:51 AM
bashing "X1000" is a old hat, we need new targets now :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: Haranguer;742353
Stefan is still alive and programming, but, sadly, his A3000 isn't, so he's having a little trouble generating personalised licences for MUI.  I emailed him and he provided a workaround.
isnt uae enough for the task, how about donating a replacement to him in exchange for open sourcing mui?;)

btw one could even donate him an x1k or some bike, although a bike might be too expensive;) i speaking from aros supporter perspective, since the genuine part of mui stunz is responsible for is still unmatched by zune and might be taken as fast reference. on the other hand im not sure if os4 users need anything like that, given 3.9 is already incorporated in their system.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
I don't think Stefan is going to open source MUI.
Although, if we are all really serious, a new MUI with cross platform support would be nice.

Maybe we should buy him an X2000 when they come out.
Actually, come to think of it a dual core PowerMac might serve as well.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 01:14:40 PM
Quote

I don't think Stefan is going to open source MUI.

perhaps, but if not, why not? if he isnt active anymore greater one time refund might be more satisfying than selling one mui license in two months at remaining interested or even bothering to amintain/delete the email traffic on the subject. would be a gain for both sides.
Quote

Actually, come to think of it a dual core PowerMac might serve as well.

fine. tell me when to chip in.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 02:12:07 PM
Quote from: vox;742282
Surely now, but it started with OS 3.0 source ....

A rewrite means that it was written from scratch, no different to AROS or MorphOS.

Quote
http://www.morphos.de/team

As you do know, we poor bastards stand just with Frieden brothers and few other good men :-)

However, if you do take AmigaOS as continuation of AmigaOS, list looks good. And have some similar names.

Sadly its not the case today.

I don't take AmigaOS as a continuation of the Amiga OS. Firstly because it's a rewrite (Remember The Friedens vs Hyperion court case?), secondly if it were it would have the legal right to use the Amiga trademark, which it doesn't.

MorphOS started as a rewrite of the Amiga OS by the "superstar" coders of the Amiga scene who had spent the 90's keeping our beloved platform alive.  OS4 started because a greedy wannabe lawyer and a greedy truck driver wanted to milk as much money as they could from what was remaining of our community.

Unfortunately for Billy and Benji most of the best coders had already started the MorphOS project and they were left with hardly anyone of note to write their Amiga OS clone "AmigaOS".


Quote
Well, there is always hope of small market for example making people working together.

The AROS and MorphOS teams have already worked together for years.

Quote
Soon I ll start thinking everyone has a Bosnian family  :-)

Well I would have even more but the Chetniks brutally raped and murdered them.

But that's a story for the Coffee House forum methinks.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742292
Also, MorphOS is a commercial product. You wouldn't want your source code copied. That was a unjustified charge Dave Haynie made about Ralph Schmidt's work years ago.


http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/morphoscritics.html
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 02:17:29 PM
The sad part is that a functional version of MorphOS was available years before.

So we really didn't need OS4.
We had a PPC OS and an X86 OS.
All this duplication of effort is not the fault of them teams that worked on those.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 02:25:20 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742349
I believe that the MorphOS developers stopped paying him and that he is no longer actively working for them.
But I have heard some rumblings in the OS4 community about licensing a version.


As I remember it Genesi stopped paying certain members of the MOS-Team (David Gerber etc).

MUI4 now belongs to the MOS-Team anyway and there isn't a cat in hell's chance that it will see a port to another OS no matter what Steven Solie may claim to the contrary.

Quote
> IIRC Stefan Stuntz actually did put an offer to Hyperion of licensing MUI at
> some point (like almost a decade ago), but it was turned down.

...by the MorphOS Team and/or Genesi, that is. You can re-read the story there:

http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3234&forum=14

> Stefan Stuntz [...] made a re-entry and started to work on MUI 4 [...]. [...] Probably
> some money were involved from the MorphOS team for this "return of the Stuntz".

*Some* Genesi (or Thendic-France) money might indeed be the proper choice of words here ;-)

http://web.archive.org/web/20080719142959/http://www.morphos.net
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/AN-2005-01-00108-DE.html


http://www.morphzone.info/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9339&forum=3#102489
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
OK, so Steven isn't always the most reliable source.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: A1260 on July 26, 2013, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;741609
The "bashing" in general was old as of day one, and has driven away many great members.  Good job, y'all.  :(

no it was not the bashing that drive me away. it actually was the high price, never finished drivers and os4 not out of the beta. that was what drive me away from my amiga hobby. you can squeeze people so much, but at some point its gonna snap peoples wallets and they will leave. that is what happen and not bashing and i was a great member. now i just do a little of aros/winuae and not much here.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 03:10:31 PM
Quote from: A1260;742435
no it was not the bashing that drive me away. it actually was the high price, never finished drivers and os4 not out of the beta. that was what drive me away from my amiga hobby. you can squeeze people so much, but at some point its gonna snap peoples wallets and they will leave. that is what happen and not bashing and i was a great member. now i just do a little of aros/winuae and not much here.

Agreed, milking it for every penny was foolish.
It defeated the OS' long term chance for survival.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: vox on July 26, 2013, 03:55:14 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742413
A rewrite means that it was written from scratch, no different to AROS or MorphOS.

I don't take AmigaOS as a continuation of the Amiga OS. Firstly because it's a rewrite (Remember The Friedens vs Hyperion court case?), secondly if it were it would have the legal right to use the Amiga trademark, which it doesn't.


As far as I do remember, court case has proven Amiga Inc supplied AmigaOS 3.0 code, instead Os 3.9 code. That much had to be "decoded" from assambly language and rewritten is true, however I do find it was a try to move same OS forward, unlike MorphOS and AROS that really started from scratch. It does hold right to AmigaOS name - I don`t understand what doesn`t make it an AmigaOS.

Quote
MorphOS started as a rewrite of the Amiga OS by the "superstar" coders of the Amiga scene who had spent the 90's keeping our beloved platform alive.  OS4 started because a greedy wannabe lawyer and a greedy truck driver wanted to milk as much money as they could from what was remaining of our community.


Yes, I do remember its beginning and loved it was first PPC only AOS implementation. I just could not afford a PPC expansion at the time.

I agree on Amiga Inc stance, while they have intitiated and early finaced AmigaOS 4 development, they always looked at it as some gap solution until OS5 which they newer brought to life. I feel a lot advancement after the court case on AOS4 side. How different would be if MOS was taken as basis, well we can only theorize.

I do agree MorphOS has Amiga users heritage, but isn`t AmigaOS continuation, but compatibile new OS, while AmigaOS is build on exactly same structure (not only  name bearer).

Quote
Unfortunately for Billy and Benji most of the best coders had already started the MorphOS project and they were left with hardly anyone of note to write their Amiga OS clone "AmigaOS".


Seems Hyperion was only choice. Haage & Partner (OS 3.5,OS 3.9) have already left the place.

Quote
The AROS and MorphOS teams have already worked together for years.


Glad for it.

Quote
Well I would have even more but the Chetniks brutally raped and murdered them. But that's a story for the Coffee House forum methinks


Well, as someone born in Yugoslavia, I do feel sadness for every victim (and not killed person - raped - emigrated etc.) of the civic war. However, mind that even it was promoted so, real "Chetniks" "Ustashes" as so on belong to 1945. These were brutal often paramilitaries or locally raised armies.

Feel free to open it at cofee house, I am quite fed up with revisiting any of civic wars during break up of Yugoslavia. Simply no winner and way too much victims for realistically nothing - weaker states.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: Fats on July 26, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742413
MorphOS started as a rewrite of the Amiga OS by the "superstar" coders of the Amiga scene who had spent the 90's keeping our beloved platform alive.  OS4 started because a greedy wannabe lawyer and a greedy truck driver wanted to milk as much money as they could from what was remaining of our community.

For me the problem with MorphOS was with BBRV long before Hyperion had anything to do with OS development. His business tactic were in my eyes bad: he seemed to go from confrontation to confrontation in the Amiga world. Although long ago I also do seem to remember having problems with Ralph Smidth's attitude; this was still the time forums didn't exists and usenet was the place to discuss things.
What I do agree with is that Bill McEwen is likely incompetent for leading a company.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 07:50:06 PM
i think there always be problems in attitude and confrontations. therefore where the people claim prominent positions it will always be handicap. again i see here advantage in aros, where i feel it is not so important and even if there are leading personalities the whole effort is rather anonymous and easier to identify with without a need to subject oneself.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 08:05:45 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742514
i think there always be problems in attitude and confrontations. therefore where the people claim prominent positions it will always be handicap. again i see here advantage in aros, where i feel it is not so important and even if there are leading personalities the whole effort is rather anonymous and easier to identify with without a need to subject oneself.

Sounds like a great way to lose.

And I have no problem with Bill Buck or Ralph Schmidt.
Ralph is a genius.
They had a plan in place, and Bill tried to pull the rug out from under them.
Funny, since he did not profit from it and later had it done to him.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: itix on July 26, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Quote from: Fats;742502
For me the problem with MorphOS was with BBRV long before Hyperion had anything to do with OS development.


I think Hyperion were in the OS business before BBRV.

Not that it matters much. They both lost.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 08:59:02 PM
Quote from: itix;742520
I think Hyperion were in the OS business before BBRV.

Not that it matters much. They both lost.


We the users lost the most. :(
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 09:01:41 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;742514
i think there always be problems in attitude and confrontations. therefore where the people claim prominent positions it will always be handicap. again i see here advantage in aros, where i feel it is not so important and even if there are leading personalities the whole effort is rather anonymous and easier to identify with without a need to subject oneself.




I have no doubt that AROS (Well, a derivative of it) will win in the end.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 26, 2013, 09:20:12 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742526
I have no doubt that AROS (Well, a derivative of it) will win in the end.

it has promise, Nik.
But consider how many Linux distros have withered up and gone away.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 10:08:35 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742528
it has promise, Nik.
But consider how many Linux distros have withered up and gone away.

True, but when Hyperion finally run out of cows to milk and the money dries up and the MOS-Team get bored/die from old age the code to AROS will still be there for anyone to hack away at and compile.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 26, 2013, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742518
Sounds like a great way to lose.
dont think i see it in categories of win or lose, win against whom? lose against whom? we are all doomed to ose at this point sooner or later.
Quote
And I have no problem with Bill Buck or Ralph Schmidt.
Ralph is a genius.
They had a plan in place, and Bill tried to pull the rug out from under them.
Funny, since he did not profit from it and later had it done to him.
neither i have any problem with any of them, buck has always tried to sponsor amiga development so far ive seen, even the natami team, power2people initiative is great to have and the like..
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 26, 2013, 11:14:45 PM
You mean just waiting till all competition has died? Would be a little too long for my taste :-). I hope that with progress of AROS at least some people of the community will be persuaded to use it. And then there are much more people outside...
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 26, 2013, 11:29:54 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;742544
You mean just waiting till all competition has died? Would be a little too long for my taste :-). I hope that with progress of AROS at least some people of the community will be persuaded to use it. And then there are much more people outside...


I personally don't think Hyperion will last more than another couple of years at most, but I'm only guessing.

AROS and MorphOS teams already cooperate and I can't see why that should stop anytime soon.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: persia on July 27, 2013, 01:17:33 AM
I misread the title as "Ease of bashing AmigaONE X1000"
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 27, 2013, 02:33:52 AM
Quote from: persia;742562
I misread the title as "Ease of bashing AmigaONE X1000"

Actually its more like "bashing Bill and Ben". I still like Trevor.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 27, 2013, 02:37:17 AM
Quote from: Iggy;742570
Actually its more like "bashing Bill and Ben". I still like Trevor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcF9JSxkUSE ;)

Trevor seems to me to be a thoroughly nice and genuinely honest man.  I think it's just a shame for him (and us users) that he threw his hat into the ring with those two shysters.

edit:

ps Check your email please Jim. :)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: vox on July 27, 2013, 10:17:26 PM
Quote from: nicholas;742573
;)
Trevor seems to me to be a thoroughly nice and genuinely honest man.  I think it's just a shame for him (and us users) that he threw his hat into the ring with those two shysters.
edit:
ps Check your email please Jim. :)

Well, A-EON so far:
a) Made Nemo board for 700 pounds for beta testers
b) Made as many batches of X1000 as people demand
c) Software product: RadeonHD 3D drivers (unfinished but in development)
d) Software product: Catweasel mk2 drivers (provided with hardware)
e) Software product: Linux kernels for all major Linuxes (included with Linuxes)
f) Software product: Open Office port  (unfinished but in development)
e) Develops new Cyrus board (in development)

Leave alone Hyperion, that is most some Amiga related company did in relatively short spam of time in Amiga land.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: SamuraiCrow on July 28, 2013, 05:00:32 AM
I've met Trevor at AmiWest.  He is an Amigaholic and an honest hard-working one at that!

But as for AROS or MorphOS or even AmigaOS to win, I think will be a hollow victory even if it happens.  I suspect with the ability to build custom cores for the FPGAArcade, parallel performance of the FPGA itself will eventually kill off the Von Naumann architectures altogether.  This includes ARM, AMD64, x86, PPC, and every other microprocessor known, even 68k.  For more information on high-level synthesis of FPGA cores, see these TCE screenshots (http://tce.cs.tut.fi/screenshots.html) and the associated Linux downloads (http://tce.cs.tut.fi/download.html).
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: SysAdmin on July 28, 2013, 05:18:28 AM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;742721
I've met Trevor at AmiWest.  He is an Amigaholic and an honest hard-working one at that!

But as for AROS or MorphOS or even AmigaOS to win, I think will be a hollow victory even if it happens.  I suspect with the ability to build custom cores for the FPGAArcade, parallel performance of the FPGA itself will eventually kill off the Von Naumann architectures altogether.  This includes ARM, AMD64, x86, PPC, and every other microprocessor known, even 68k.  For more information on high-level synthesis of FPGA cores, see these TCE screenshots (http://tce.cs.tut.fi/screenshots.html) and the associated Linux downloads (http://tce.cs.tut.fi/download.html).


Sounds really cool, thanx for the info and screen shots.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Megamig on July 28, 2013, 05:37:12 AM
The X1000 is what happens when you put passion over common sense (or a feasibility study).

Correct me if I am wrong but would've it been more economically viable if Amiga 4.x was ported over to ARM or x86 architecture. Mac moved away from PowerPC for a reason and future Amiga 4.x development should have followed Apple's lead.

If this route was taken it would have been easier (and cheaper) to purchase generic ARM/x86 motherboards and modify the BIOS with exclusive OS 4.x code to restrict the use of Amiga 4.x on other systems - again similar to Apple.

IMHO A-Eon needs to produce a X1000CR (ie. X500) before the X2000. Otherwise the next major headline will read A-Eon bankrupt - buyers owed thousands.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 28, 2013, 06:36:45 AM
To be fair, three years ago the ARM computers available were a 600mhz netbook costing $350.
It does make a lot of sense today now that you can get a 1GHz ARM computer for $100.

It would take about 3-5 years to port it. Unless you have a full time team doing it. If they start now Amiga OS would only be a few years behind other OS'es.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 28, 2013, 07:15:54 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;742723
Sounds really cool, thanx for the info and screen shots.

That would not just break Amiga and 68k compatibility that would
break ANY compatibility to anything :huh:

But it does sound very very cool :-)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 28, 2013, 07:59:39 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;742729
It would take about 3-5 years to port it. Unless you have a full time team doing it. If they start now Amiga OS would only be a few years behind other OS'es.


But who's going to pay for it? 3 to 5 years without anything to sell? That's called suicide....
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: SysAdmin on July 28, 2013, 08:19:32 AM
Quote from: spirantho;742740
But who's going to pay for it? 3 to 5 years without anything to sell? That's called suicide....


SMAP? (Super Most Ambitious Project)

XMAP? (Xtreme Most Ambitious Project)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on July 28, 2013, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: spirantho;742740
But who's going to pay for it? 3 to 5 years without anything to sell? That's called suicide....

Ummm, do both?
That's kind of what I said by pointing out the ARM offerings 3 years ago were unimpressive.
As you know the latest ARM based phones have power that would surpass a lot of desktops.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 28, 2013, 11:03:35 AM
investing 200k like trevor confirms (and i think with production, supply and service it well be more) one could likely have designed fpga, hybrid/fpga (as jens suggested) or even an asic 68k system that could otherwise match few hundred mhz machines and be cheap enough to popularize whats left of amiga among retro-fans and geeks. if aeon systems arent having another target audience that may keep them afloat, i dont see gains in such a system in perspective. promarly it was waste of time to relay on os4 development, rather than that supporting big picture, tht means lowest possible common denominator as 68k  and such may have effectively attarct more skilled people across the whole community, as can be exemplary seen in mos, os4 and aros community where people are still interested in, say, fpgaarcade.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 28, 2013, 11:51:12 AM
Trevor does not think that way. He is a "Amiga nerd" but expecially a "AmigaOS" fan. So he wants to develop new expensive "toys" and bring it (hardware-wise) to the maximum. You (and I) can agree on it or not but that will not change anything. We will certainly not persuade him to invest in other projects, best we can do to help things to improve in a way that we can persuade users and developers to support our favorite. And that is what I concentrate on. Trevor can do what he wants.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: LiveForIt on July 28, 2013, 12:29:00 PM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;742721
I've met Trevor at AmiWest.  He is an Amigaholic and an honest hard-working one at that!

But as for AROS or MorphOS or even AmigaOS to win, I think will be a hollow victory even if it happens.  I suspect with the ability to build custom cores for the FPGAArcade, parallel performance of the FPGA itself will eventually kill off the Von Naumann architectures altogether.  This includes ARM, AMD64, x86, PPC, and every other microprocessor known, even 68k.  For more information on high-level synthesis of FPGA cores, see these TCE screenshots (http://tce.cs.tut.fi/screenshots.html) and the associated Linux downloads (http://tce.cs.tut.fi/download.html).

 Well all of FPGA projects up to now they have mostly been failures.

  BoXoR  project is dead.
 
Because it was over-ambitious, and a moving target, which became more and more unrealistic.

NatAMI Project is most likely dead.

Because it was over-ambitious, and a moving target, which became more and more unrealistic.

FPGAArchade is too slow, not expandable, there is CPU card coming but it's not going be faster than a Pentium II 100Mhz or something like that.
  It too slow for modern standards.

Minimig was a nice realistic project it really did show that FPGA head some advantages and that it might be possible to use this technology to improve compatibility, but as modern computer it's too slow and it lacks all sort of upgradability, you can't rally attach anything to it.

Tina project will most likely end up as NatAMI.

I have not seen anything but toys so far, but I do keep an eye on it due to curiosity.

  I believe a hybrid might be interesting a computer where you have FPGA as glue logic, where you have modern CPU sitting on top of it, in some form or way.

   I have not yet seen any 2 Ghz dual core FPGA Amiga coming from anyone, I like to see someone take the risk, Taver did whit AmigaONE-X1000 project, and is where good computer (but a expensive one I agree.)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: amigakit on July 28, 2013, 02:47:28 PM
@warzon

I take your point. A-EON's emphasis has changed towards some areas and now is starting to bridge the gap between 68k Classic and next generation AmigaOS systems.  You will see this is forthcoming software and hardware (watch this space).  We have already started with sponsoring Catweasel drivers for the X1000.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: SysAdmin on July 28, 2013, 03:00:06 PM
Quote from: amigakit;742789
@warzon

I take your point. A-EON's emphasis has changed towards some areas and now is starting to bridge the gap between 68k Classic and next generation AmigaOS systems.  You will see this is forthcoming software and hardware (watch this space).  We have already started with sponsoring Catweasel drivers for the X1000.


Thats great news!
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Iggy on July 28, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
@ LiveForIt

Programmable chips have been used as glue logic for some time.
One of Freescale's development boards (HPCN-MPC8641D) uses a Actel Pixis FPGA.

And with apologies to Sam, FPGAs to replace all CPUs?
That is a ridiculous proposition.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Blizz1220 on July 28, 2013, 03:34:03 PM
Quote from: LiveForIt;742765
Well all of FPGA projects up to now they have mostly been failures.

  BoXoR  project is dead.
 
Because it was over-ambitious, and a moving target, which became more and more unrealistic.

NatAMI Project is most likely dead.

Because it was over-ambitious, and a moving target, which became more and more unrealistic.

FPGAArchade is too slow, not expandable, there is CPU card coming but it's not going be faster than a Pentium II 100Mhz or something like that.
  It too slow for modern standards.

FPGA Arcade whole budget was about 10-20 000 $ and is being made by
a person as a hobby project ...

Try going to Varisys and pay them amount payed for AmigaOne x1000 and
they will build you FPGA Amiga in no time ;)
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 28, 2013, 04:13:42 PM
mikej does it as a hobby according to his statement, so he absorbs a lot of development expenses. varisys wants to get paid for every single thing they do, and likely not cheap.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: OlafS3 on July 28, 2013, 04:30:25 PM
"we need computer for the masses not the classes" :-)

we need cheap solutions that attract people again. A-eon is up to now concentrating on high-price AmigaOS PPC solutions. That is Trevors decision for what he spends his money but it is certainly not the right strategy to win back users and expecially developers.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: wawrzon on July 28, 2013, 04:35:13 PM
Quote from: amigakit;742789
@warzon

I take your point. A-EON's emphasis has changed towards some areas and now is starting to bridge the gap between 68k Classic and next generation AmigaOS systems.  You will see this is forthcoming software and hardware (watch this space).  We have already started with sponsoring Catweasel drivers for the X1000.


good to hear. im curious. i propose to evaluate possibly most general interest/tendencies in the community. cooperation with individual computers and co might be beneficial, jens ideas seem usually most sensible from my pov (no wonder).
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: James2002 on July 31, 2013, 09:47:32 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;742812
"we need computer for the masses not the classes" :-)

we need cheap solutions that attract people again. A-eon is up to now concentrating on high-price AmigaOS PPC solutions. That is Trevors decision for what he spends his money but it is certainly not the right strategy to win back users and expecially developers.

I agree. I believe that  pricing is everything.  If they made a keyboard all in one  case little bit bigger than the a500, used arm technology, mouse  and it was somewhat upgradeable. The price was 500.00.  Amiga Os worked perfect with it. A lot of people would jump on the wagon.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: gertsy on July 31, 2013, 10:19:23 AM
Quote from: James2002;743233
I agree. I believe that  pricing is everything.  If they made a keyboard all in one  case little bit bigger than the a500, used arm technology, mouse  and it was somewhat upgradeable. The price was 500.00.  Amiga Os worked perfect with it. A lot of people would jump on the wagon.


So pricing isn't everything then? As you've just qualified Amiga OS has to work perfectly as well.  Drivers, hardware and performance are all covered by that.
Low price and perfection.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Djole on July 31, 2013, 10:41:48 AM
Quote from: James2002;743233
I agree. I believe that  pricing is everything.  If they made a keyboard all in one  case little bit bigger than the a500, used arm technology, mouse  and it was somewhat upgradeable. The price was 500.00.  Amiga Os worked perfect with it. A lot of people would jump on the wagon.


Yeah a mouse is essential:rofl:
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: James2002 on July 31, 2013, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: gertsy;743235
So pricing isn't everything then? As you've just qualified Amiga OS has to work perfectly as well.  Drivers, hardware and performance are all covered by that.
Low price and perfection.

If I had a computer that I could learn programming I would. The windows xp computer died.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on July 31, 2013, 02:13:30 PM
Quote from: James2002;743238
If I had a computer that I could learn programming I would. The windows xp computer died.


You learn to code on any computer.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: spirantho on July 31, 2013, 02:37:42 PM
I learned to code on a ZX81.

Didn't do me any harm.

Nicholas is right, though - you can learn to code on any computer you feel like, though I'd recommend just something like Blitz BASIC on an A1200 if you want something fun and relatively easy to get into, while still being potent enough to do some cool stuff.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Everblue on July 31, 2013, 02:45:07 PM
While I have no intention to bash the x1000, any complete system costing more than 500 euro is unrealistic. This is a hobbyist machine, and most people have limited amount of money when it comes to hobbies.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: amigakit on July 31, 2013, 03:00:23 PM
My personal Amiga 1200T is worth way more than 500 EUR and a lot slower than an X1000, but it is my hobby machine.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: dammy on July 31, 2013, 03:04:32 PM
Quote from: Everblue;743250
While I have no intention to bash the x1000, any complete system costing more than 500 euro is unrealistic. This is a hobbyist machine, and most people have limited amount of money when it comes to hobbies.


This is the problem with wanting to use AOS4.x series, you are going to have to pay serious amount of money for a system.  If you have to have AOS4.x, pay the money and be happy but please stop complaining.  There are very cheap (to free) alternatives that are readily available that are at a minimum, equal to AOS4.x experience.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Everblue on July 31, 2013, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: amigakit;743251
My personal Amiga 1200T is worth way more than 500 EUR and a lot slower than an X1000, but it is my hobby machine.


Well at least you can play all the classic amiga games on that.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Everblue on July 31, 2013, 03:09:28 PM
Quote from: dammy;743252
This is the problem with wanting to use AOS4.x series, you are going to have to pay serious amount of money for a system.  If you have to have AOS4.x, pay the money and be happy but please stop complaining.  There are very cheap (to free) alternatives that are readily available that are at a minimum, equal to AOS4.x experience.


Yeah I don't think complaining will make any amiga 4.x capable machines any cheaper. The only affordable future is porting the OS to arm or x86, which I think will be pretty dead before that happens.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: Thorham on July 31, 2013, 05:12:34 PM
Quote from: Everblue;743253
Well at least you can play all the classic amiga games on that.
Well at least it's an actual Amiga :p
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: MicroStrand on August 08, 2013, 01:01:25 PM
Quote from: dammy;743252
This is the problem with wanting to use AOS4.x series, you are going to have to pay serious amount of money for a system.
I think the real problem is not the money, it actually is the contradictory philosophy behind it. On the one hand we see the decision for a much better hardware architecture, but on the other hand, the unwillingness to consistently look forward. In the long run was just that in many ways a tactical mistake. So I think the X1000 would be particularly for potential programmers a much more interesting business field, if one were to focus solely on the actual hardware, rather than remain permanently backward compatible.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: dammy on August 08, 2013, 03:39:53 PM
Quote from: MicroStrand;744004
I think the real problem is not the money, it actually is the contradictory philosophy behind it. On the one hand we see the decision for a much better hardware architecture, but on the other hand, the unwillingness to consistently look forward. In the long run was just that in many ways a tactical mistake. So I think the X1000 would be particularly for potential programmers a much more interesting business field, if one were to focus solely on the actual hardware, rather than remain permanently backward compatible.


It's always about money.  With the money, you can do anything including breaking from the past as Apple did when it jumped to PPC and then to X86.  Without it, you stuck in quicksand, sinking as the rest of the world moves forward.

Yes, Hyperion landscape is littered with tactical mistakes that have come back to bite them.  Perhaps they will be able to pull a rabbit out of the hat at AmiWest as the clock ticks toward them becoming irrelevant.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: MicroStrand on August 08, 2013, 06:25:38 PM
Quote from: dammy;744011
With the money, you can do anything including breaking from the past as Apple did when it jumped to PPC and then to x86.  Without it, you stuck in quicksand, sinking as the rest of the world moves forward.
May be, but we are not talking about industrial investments here. Our topic is the amount of money one has to pay for the product, and it doesn't so much matter in this context. Much more important than that is breaking the old barriers for advanced software development, and that's what was missed from Hyperion until today unfortunately!
Title: Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
Post by: nicholas on August 08, 2013, 06:52:43 PM
Quote from: dammy;744011
It's always about money.  With the money, you can do anything including breaking from the past as Apple did when it jumped to PPC and then to X86.  Without it, you stuck in quicksand, sinking as the rest of the world moves forward.

Yes, Hyperion landscape is littered with tactical mistakes that have come back to bite them.  Perhaps they will be able to pull a rabbit out of the hat at AmiWest as the clock ticks toward them becoming irrelevant.


I can hardly wait to see what surprises they have in store for us at Amiwest this year.  ssolie just teases us too much!
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: rayt on August 08, 2013, 08:19:28 PM
Quote from: Iggy;742283

VS a couple of angry German's.

Not much of a challenge.


Angry Germans? Where do you think Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Stefan Stuntz, Phase5, bPlan, and therefore MorhphOS originated from? Anyway, who cares about such things nowadays.
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on August 08, 2013, 08:55:57 PM
Quote from: rayt;744034
Angry Germans? Where do you think Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Stefan Stuntz, Phase5, bPlan, and therefore MorhphOS originated from? Anyway, who cares about such things nowadays.


I'd call them the cream of the crop of 1990's Amiga software and hardware development talent.

Please remind me who Ben's team are again?
Title: Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
Post by: nicholas on August 08, 2013, 08:58:29 PM
Quote from: rayt;744034
Angry Germans? Where do you think Ralph Schmidt, Frank Mariak, Stefan Stuntz, Phase5, bPlan, and therefore MorhphOS originated from?


I'd call them the cream of the crop of 1990's Amiga software and hardware development talent.

Please remind me who Ben's team are again?

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Anyway, who cares about such things nowadays.


Obviously you do.