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Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: persia on September 01, 2010, 04:11:45 AM

Title: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 01, 2010, 04:11:45 AM
http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/
Desktops (http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/
Desktops)
Commodore USA to relaunch Amiga brand with series of AROS desktops
By Joseph L. Flatley posted Aug 31st 2010 7:03PM


Barry's back, kids! The CEO of Commodore USA just informed us that, in addition to slapping Commodore stickers on various all-in-one PCs, he has acquired the rights to the Amiga name (we only hope that the process went a little smoother this time around). The plan is to sell machines that fully support AROS -- an open source variant of AmigaOS 3.1 that the kids seem to go crazy for. We can't wait to get a look at these bad boys, but for now it looks like we'll have to do with the picture of an old Amiga 3000 he inexplicably included with the PR. The PR, that is, that can be seen in its entirety after the break.
Show full PR text
COMMODORE USA ANNOUNCES ACQUISITION OF AMIGA EXCLUSIVE WORLDWIDE LICENSING RIGHTS
Company to produce new line of Amiga branded keyboard computers

FT. LAUDERDALE, FL. and MAPLE VALLEY, WA. August 31, 2010 – Commodore USA, LLC and Amiga Inc., today announced their licensing agreement whereby Commodore USA, LLC will produce a full line of new AMIGA branded "AIO" (All In One) keyboard computers, under an exclusive worldwide license granted by Amiga Inc. for this newly revitalized computer category.

Mr. Barry Altman, President and CEO of Commodore USA, LLC states "We are ecstatic to be partnering with Amiga Inc. in this new, exciting product launch. The legacy of the Commodore and Amiga trademark brand, reunited once again after so many years, and our reintroduction of the legendary All-In-One computer keyboard form factor, combined with the twenty-five year anniversary of the introduction of the first Amiga computer by Commodore International, is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Commodore USA has now taken a major role in not just supporting the future Amiga market with our many new products, but also in providing a new beginning for the enormous existing Amiga community. Our relationship with them, along with our support for the elegant, robust and lightweight AROS desktop operating system, will ensure that they and future customers will benefit from our new and exciting vision, and enable the legacy Commodore and Amiga culture to flourish. We look forward to bringing these new products to market, and welcoming a whole new generation of computer users to the Commodore and Amiga experience". Mr. Altman continues " I would like to personally thank our team of advisors, consultants, lawyers and most of all the over 5 million viewers to our website, and the 270,000+ respondents who took the time to provide us with not only their thoughts and suggestions, but offered us their support and wishes for our success. And one more thing: We have now successfully negotiated the acquisition of two legendary brand exclusive trademark licenses. Our efforts will now continue in acquiring the third and final brand license, completing our quest for the total technology trifecta. Stay tuned...the best is yet to come!".

In response to an overwhelming demand from Amiga users worldwide, Commodore USA's CTO Leo Nigro announced today that their new Amiga branded computers will be fully AROS compatible, and that they will be supporting the AROS open source community in every way possible. Mr. Nigro states "With the monumental strides that AROS has recently achieved, we realize the importance of accelerating this progress with funding that will enable this project to rapidly move forward and take it's rightful place at the forefront of desktop operating systems". With the recent announcement of their newly updated Commodore C64 model, and the acquisition of the Amiga brand exclusive trademark license, Commodore USA has once again catapulted the Commodore and Amiga namesake to the forefront of consumer electronics brand recognition.

About Commodore USA, LLC

Commodore USA, LLC designs, produces and markets a series of all-in-one Commodore branded keyboard computers, and other unique form factor computers and consumer electronics.

Barry S. Altman is the President and CEO of Commodore USA, LLC, based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Spanning a 25 year career in the bleeding-edge electronics and satellite/space telecommunications industry, Mr. Altman founded and served as CEO & President of Cabletech Satellite Systems, Inc. U.S. Cable Technology, Inc., The Cabletech Satellite Network and United Broadcasting Co. This group of companies built NOC's (Network Operation Centers) for cable television programmers, and cable television head ends for cable companies throughout the United States, They designed and constructed the satellite uplink network operation centers for such companies as Viacom International, Warner Amex, Viacom and MTV Networks. They directed and produced the domestic satellite telemetry downlink for the Live Aid concert for MTV, which was at that time the largest world wide deployment of a live satellite television broadcast. Cabletech has manufactured, designed and installed systems for Grumman Aerospace, The United Nations, government and private industry, and over 45,000 TVRO C& Ku band satellite systems for businesses and consumers nationwide. Cabletech was a developmental partner with General Motors & Hughes Communications in the small aperture DBS system that later became DirecTv.

About Amiga Inc.

Amiga Inc. holds the intellectual property related to the AMIGA personal computer that was developed and sold by Commodore International and Amiga Corporation, including hardware designs, software, operating systems, trademarks, and other intellectual properties. Amiga Inc. also produces and distributes enabling technologies and applications for wired and wireless devices that provide technology to developers for writing and porting applications to a new multi-media operating system that is hardware agnostic, enabling applications to run unchanged on x86 and other processors. States Bill McEwen, CEO/Pres "We at Amiga are pleased to once again be part of the great plans and products at Commodore USA. This is just the beginning of something great".
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: aperez on September 01, 2010, 05:00:26 AM
...eh, werid. I had to ask myself if today was some alternative April Fools' day. The link in your post was malformed, but here's a working hyperlink... http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/commodore-usa-to-relaunch-amiga-brand-with-series-of-aros-deskto/
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: NovaCoder on September 01, 2010, 06:01:33 AM
This is actually quite funny :)

I thought Amiga Inc had imploded and taken Mr Bill with them.....obviously not.

Oh well, if it does happen it will be a great boost for Aros.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: amigakid on September 01, 2010, 06:47:48 AM
WOW today is a wierd day indeed.  As much as I would love to have a brand new Amiga on store shelves and of course in my home I can't help but wonder if it would be remotely the same as it was when I bought my Amiga's back when.  Seems it will be just a PC with an Amiga sticker on it and an open source so the thought of a new Amiga without any R&D just seems kinda...fake.  I can put a PC together myself and buy a Amiga sticker for it and install AROS or something on it.  I will keep an eye out though in case I am wrong.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 01, 2010, 07:04:24 AM
Hmmm... Reckon I'll have to put off buying my first ever PC now, just in case theirs some truth in this story, still a bit sceptical but you never know... :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on September 01, 2010, 07:10:50 AM
A point for x86 camp.
Next up port OS4 to x86.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Thorham on September 01, 2010, 07:13:33 AM
I'd much rather see new classic Amiga hardware instead of peecees with Amiga stickers on them :(
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 01, 2010, 07:54:54 AM
I must admit, a commodore style PC case with AROS would be pretty rad.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: yogiofvm on September 01, 2010, 09:24:40 AM
hey just have a look at linux

same hardware that windows but such better

hardware can make a computer, right but surrely software too

still working myself on opensuse from months (have work thrtought an art's gallery)
and then still beginning coding on aone ;)

well just my point of view

regards
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: actung_bab on September 01, 2010, 09:33:15 AM
well well l chouldint belive my eyes wonders will never cease got give mr bill credit for his never say die attitude good on you.
well its got be good for Aros folks that put in the hard work l cant see this as anything but good news if promotes the amiga brand its got be good news
hopfully amiga x1000 will run along side these machines pretty amazing got so many amiga flavours with os 4.1 morphos Aros
love the idea of intergrated keyboard and pc , still think amiga 1200 looks nice even today. and with motherboards so small no need for large pc cases
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Piru on September 01, 2010, 09:37:00 AM
"Our American lawyers will take action against this.

This is blatant violation of the rights Hyperion Entertainment secured in the settlement agreement with Amiga Inc., Itec and Amino.
"
(source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704))
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Jakodemus on September 01, 2010, 09:42:02 AM
I hear popcorns are getting ready in my microwave...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Akiko on September 01, 2010, 10:06:15 AM
Quote from: Piru;577033
"Our American lawyers will take action against this.

This is blatant violation of the rights Hyperion Entertainment secured in the settlement agreement with Amiga Inc., Itec and Amino.
"
(source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704))


I hope the "CommodoreUSA" got better lawyers than whoever designed their website. :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 01, 2010, 10:34:41 AM
Soooo funnny.   Yet another company ready to drag the Amiga name through the mud.  I would rather never see an Amiga branded product again than see these muppetts releasing Amiga branded Crap.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 01, 2010, 10:38:01 AM
Going by the history of this jerkoff I suspect it will be some lameass bargain bucket machine which has zero Commodore styling cues with a fake sticker slapped on the case as it emerges from some generic far east factory. Once again save yourself 50% and just buy something that AROS 100% supports and put it on there yourself....then print out your Amiga sticker and job's a good 'un :)

I wouldn't piss on this guy if he was on fire, let alone give him a penny. And I like how he has added EVEN MORE COPYRIGHTED IMAGES WITHOUT PERMISSION to his shit website I could build in 45 mins using Frontpage from last decade LOL
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 01, 2010, 10:42:09 AM
Quote from: JJ;577037
Soooo funnny.   Yet another company ready to drag the Amiga name through the mud.  I would rather never see an Amiga branded product again than see these muppetts releasing Amiga branded Crap.


Given Amiga Inc disappeared into oblivion I think it's safe to say this is not legally branded anything, just some no talent ass clown making announcements he has no right to, and which are difficult to confirm with Amiga Inc.

It's so weird, if he tried to sell these legitimately on ebay he would get his listings removed for selling counterfeit/copyright infringing goods....but out in the WWW wild west of business.... lol and what makes it worse is all these other so called intelligently run websites picking his promotions/press releases ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 01, 2010, 10:42:34 AM
You should see them all over on amigaworld , getting hard-ons for thiss shite.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 01, 2010, 10:43:33 AM
Remind me never to join that forum then ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 01, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
Th purity control folks have just taken one in the backside.  It makes me smile....
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: cv643d on September 01, 2010, 11:02:04 AM
How blatant of them to sell AROS Amigas :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: DiskDoctor on September 01, 2010, 11:32:36 AM
Quote from: Jakodemus;577034
I hear popcorns are getting ready in my microwave...


I can smell it to, just put mine in too.

Sooo...  Another War is about to begin...  This time AmigaOS v. AROS...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: TCMSLP on September 01, 2010, 11:47:28 AM
*shakes head in disbelief*

I may have misunderstood here but it seems Hyperion and A-Eon have invested significant money developing both new Amiga OS and hardware (X1000) only for Commodore USA to 'reunite the Commodore and Amiga brands', slap a sticker on some generic PC hardware and (at least in the eyes of the public) make OS4.x and the X1000 seem insignificant compared to the legitimate 'Commodore Amiga'.

This seems very underhanded and I thought trademark disputes had been resolved, ultimately preventing this sort of thing.  If the 'Amiga' trademark wasn't included in previous settlements then I guess Amiga Inc & Commodore USA have every right to do this regardless of the detrimental affect to the Amiga world.

I sincerely hope this doesn't detract from the X1000 launch.  Things are confusing enough as it is with Aros/MorphOS/AmigaOS & PPC/x86 divisions in the Amiga world.  This can only add to the confusion - especially where the press and general public are concerned :(

This does not bode well :(
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 01, 2010, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Piru;577033
"Our American lawyers will take action against this.

This is blatant violation of the rights Hyperion Entertainment secured in the settlement agreement with Amiga Inc., Itec and Amino.
"
(source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704))

Not another lawsuit!  Just what we all need, I don't think!

I have to say, I always found the naming of the AmigaOne X1000 rather clumsy.  Surely if they had the right to the Amiga name, then they'd have called it "Amiga X1000"?

I'm not sure I can agree with Hyperion here.  Has anyone looked closely at the settlement to see if this scenario is covered?  From memory, I thought this scenario was a distinct possibility.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: DiskDoctor on September 01, 2010, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577050
Not another lawsuit!  Just what we all need, I don't think!

I have to say, I always found the naming of the AmigaOne X1000 rather clumsy.  Surely if they had the right to the Amiga name, then they'd have called it "Amiga X1000"?

I'm not sure I can agree with Hyperion here.  Has anyone looked closely at the settlement to see if this scenario is covered?  From memory, I thought this scenario was a distinct possibility.


Fancy a lawyer payoff bounty?  Anybody???

:roflmao:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Plaz on September 01, 2010, 12:21:40 PM
Historically I've not had faith in anything Amiga Inc has been involved in. However I do like AROS. What a quandry.

And if Hyperion sends in the lawyers, I suspect yet again it will all end in tears.

Plaz
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 01, 2010, 12:26:17 PM
I see Commodore USA has updated their website. Too bad they still haven't figured out that you can't just take pictures from wherever you want and stick them on your site.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 01, 2010, 01:04:00 PM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577050
Not another lawsuit! Just what we all need, I don't think!
 
I have to say, I always found the naming of the AmigaOne X1000 rather clumsy. Surely if they had the right to the Amiga name, then they'd have called it "Amiga X1000"?
 
I'm not sure I can agree with Hyperion here. Has anyone looked closely at the settlement to see if this scenario is covered? From memory, I thought this scenario was a distinct possibility.

 
From memory Hyperion only won the right to use the AmigaONE name, hence the naming of the new X1000.
 
I am pretty sure they dont hold anyhting over the Amiga name, but there seems to be something in the agreement that prevents amiga Inc and commodore USA doing what they are doig as  they say its against the agreement.
 
I thought things had been too quiet with Poeple seeming to mainly be over the whole OS4/MorphOS argument and no lawsuit going on.
 
 
What no popcorn smiley anymore ?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 01, 2010, 01:06:09 PM
Quote from: DiskDoctor;577048
I can smell it to, just put mine in too.

Sooo...  Another War is about to begin...  This time AmigaOS v. AROS...


Did someone say WAR, where is it, let me at em... :roflmao:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: dammy on September 01, 2010, 01:21:26 PM
Quote from: JJ;577064
From memory Hyperion only won the right to use the AmigaONE name, hence the naming of the new X1000.

 
IIRC, Hyperion has the name AmigaOne (and not Amiga as Trevor has stated previously), AmigaOS, Amiga OS, Amiga OS4 through whatever version they wish.  Having said that, there is no reason why AI can't issue license for Amiga with whatever OS name you want on it as long as it's not AmigaOS.  Or am I not remembering this correctly?  No, I'm not going to put enough effort into rereading the agreement again. :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 01, 2010, 01:28:43 PM
Quote from: DiskDoctor;577048
I can smell it to, just put mine in too.

Sooo...  Another War is about to begin...  This time AmigaOS v. AROS...


Not really, I have a lot of respect for the open source project that is AROS, I have no respect from some nobjockey putting up bullshit on the Commodore USA (ahem) website cashing in on the name of Amiga and the work of all the tireless talented individuals involved with all aspects of AROS.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: wawrzon on September 01, 2010, 02:24:25 PM
looks like an attempt to discredite aros and distract the attention from aeon. i mean aros is well off without clowns like that? who needs an amiga sticker on their pc, when they can get their imicas and ares? in worst case it ignites the war again. dont let you drag into this crap, just ignore them "commodore whatsoever".
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: orb85750 on September 01, 2010, 02:25:18 PM
Yes, there can be two official Amiga lines now -- one based on hard work and new development, and the other capitalizing on all the hard (mostly unpaid) work that others have put into AROS.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 01, 2010, 02:40:15 PM
Yes and this just shits all over all the hardwork putting together the hardware and getting new drivers written for imicas and ares.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 01, 2010, 02:50:26 PM
Quote from: Piru;577033
"Our American lawyers will take action against this.

This is blatant violation of the rights Hyperion Entertainment secured in the settlement agreement with Amiga Inc., Itec and Amino.
"
(source (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32323&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#577704))

Damned right! This is f'ing annoying. McEwen can only be trying to make a little money (and maybe confuse/trash customer's opinion of the Amiga name).

Words cannot express the sense of irritation I have over the truck driver's latest move.

Any of you that buy one of these deserves a sharp slap in the face. If the X1000 isn't an Amiga, well its nothing else. This "Amiga" is a PC.

This is as illegitimate as it gets.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jorkany on September 01, 2010, 03:07:35 PM
I don't agree with the methods used by CommodoreUSA, but I am very pleased with the results - and I'm not talking about their rebranded PCs.

I don't like AInc. at all, but thinking they had "disppeared into oblivion" just because their website is inactive is a mistake. Like it or not they do own the Amiga name and can do with it whatever they see fit. Hyperion got access to certain variations of the name in the settlement, but they still don't own the pie.

Despite their method of shoot first ask questions later, IMO CommodoreUSA came across the Amiga trademark much more honestly than Hyperion, who has been trashing the Amiga name for nearly ten years. I'll be very interested in watching the threatened Hyperion lawsuit (against who - AInc. or CommodoreUSA?) and it's outcome.

Finally, I think it's teriffic seeing the OS4 faithful getting a taste of their own medicine. The hypocrisy of calling a rebranded Teron an Amiga is brought to light in the most illuminating way possible. Very satisfying, and I look forward to more popcorn.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 01, 2010, 03:14:12 PM
But thinking about this, there might be a bit of revenge about this.

Hyperion kept on selling OS4 for other platforms etc until the court case was over.

Im guessing that Commode USA and Amiga INC will continue until things are cleared up.

I would be surprisde if Hyperion have got any grounds to stop this, but I hope to god that they do
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: CSixx on September 01, 2010, 03:41:12 PM
I wish Hyperion a quick and successful lawsuit against these Commodore nobodies...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: F1Lupo on September 01, 2010, 03:45:03 PM
Quote from: NovaCoder;577010
This is actually quite funny :)

I thought Amiga Inc had imploded and taken Mr Bill with them.....obviously not.

Oh well, if it does happen it will be a great boost for Aros.

ah c'mon Nova really! why tarnish the good things AROS are doing with the past crap A Inc. have done :confused:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 05:24:08 PM
Wow!!!

This is very exciting news! :)

I'd never thought I'd ever see a *new* Commodore Amiga again! Wow, Super Cool! :) I will buy it for sure! :D

Maybe someone could release a renamed version of AROS for this one, like "TOS" (no, dear people, not "Terms Of Service" this time ;), but simply The Operating System! (inspired by Atari, for reasons explained in the next sentence ;))). Back in the Amiga days, The OS was something you would take for granted anyway, You bought the Commodore Amiga, and The OS was bundled "in the background" with every machine ever sold! See what I mean? So when I buy a *new* Commodore Amiga, I'd be *perfectly happy* to use The Operating System it's bundled with!

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jorkany on September 01, 2010, 05:31:13 PM
Quote from: CSixx;577099
I wish Hyperion a quick and successful lawsuit against these Commodore nobodies...


Just out of curiosity, what makes you think they plan to sue CommodoreUSA? Hyperion never had an agreement with them, if Hyperion sue anyone it seems like it would be AInc.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Gary McCulloch on September 01, 2010, 05:37:45 PM
I been buying PCs for years.  Next one will have the Commodore logo on it!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: JJ;577095
But thinking about this, there might be a bit of revenge about this.

Hyperion kept on selling OS4 for other platforms etc until the court case was over.


Yes, that's very probable.

A good, solid deal is one where *both* parties walk away *smiling* after signing the contract.

The Hyperion "settlement" was a robbery. A judicial rape, performed by lawyers (or wannabe such). The only reason Hyperion "won" (which they didn't, not really), was because Amiga Inc completely lacked the means to defend themselves after a certain point. Amiga was defenseless at the end, she was lying on the ground, and Hyperion took what they wanted. That's my views of it, and your assumption above about "revenge" goes perfectly in line with that. Hyperion's actions could very well have made it quite personal to the owners of Amiga IP...

Quote
Im guessing that Commode USA and Amiga INC will continue until things are cleared up.


Nothing needs being "cleared up" IMO.

Hyperion has a license *to use* some Amiga trade marks under certain conditions (some exclusive). They don't *own* jack shit however (pardon my "French").

Nowhere in the "settlement" is it stated that Amiga must roll over and die.

Quote
I would be surprisde if Hyperion have got any grounds to stop this


I think it's quite clear they don't...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: SpitfireTN;577124
I been buying PCs for years.  Next one will have the Commodore logo on it!


Yeah! Same here!

It will be a Commodore Amiga!

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 01, 2010, 06:00:38 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577127
Yeah! Same here!

It will be a Commodore Amiga!

:)


No, it will be a PC with a sticker on it.

Probably a crappy PC at that.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Lonewolf10 on September 01, 2010, 06:03:25 PM
That sucks. Where does that leave Hyperion?

If I wanted a dull grey/black box to run AROS on I could get a cheap laptop and install it on that.

Seems to me like another case of using a well-known name to try and sell computers.


Regards,
Lonewolf10
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Akiko on September 01, 2010, 06:04:15 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577127
Yeah! Same here!

It will be a Commodore Amiga!

:)



It's puzzling but looking at their online store, I'm not seeing any Visable Commodore branding  on their products.

Anyone with pics of their machines showing the commodore logo?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 01, 2010, 06:12:25 PM
Quote from: Lonewolf10;577131
That sucks. Where does that leave Hyperion?


Same place they've always been. I can't see this having any effect on their business at all.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 01, 2010, 06:25:20 PM
OOOOOHHHH... Amiga branded PC.
BLAARGH, Makes me puke!!!
A Inc. has no OS, no real product worth buying, just a name. Oh dear, the word isn't copyright now is it, it never was. It's a damn trademark, so in reality anyone could stick the word "Amiga" on any machine provided it was in a different font. You can't hold copy on the word "Amiga" any more than you can on the word "Computer" or "Girlfriend". Get a life A inc. all your doing now is spitting piss and venom, you make me sick!!

By the way, I've got a nice vinyl cutter so I can stick chicken heads and amiga labels on anything I like, I just cut then and stick them, I think I'll go and brand by toilet....fridge....door...wall...etc.. They will all be just as "Amiga" as a stinking PC!!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 06:29:27 PM
Quote from: mongo;577130
No, it will be a PC with a sticker on it.


1) Well, at least it will be a *real* x86 PC this time, instead of some *equally* "PC-ish" computer, but built from overpriced and much poorer PPC in extremely tiny series, and at at least it will be a Commodore Amiga! :)

2) This isn't exactly the first company being in "the sticker business" around here, but this is the first one about to offer a real Commodore Amiga sticker! :D And with real, usable HW to go with it as well, probably at a price everyone can afford! :)

Quote
Probably a crappy PC at that.


Well, if that is what "small", "lean" and "low cost" means to you (judging from what CommodoreUSA has in their portfolio today, but you know, x86 scales quite far upwards if you want! :))

;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 01, 2010, 06:38:46 PM
Yeah, and you can run PC x86 stuff on it! Wow, like I haven't got one of those!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 06:40:06 PM
Quote from: Akiko;577132
It's puzzling but looking at their online store, I'm not seeing any Visable Commodore branding  on their products.

Anyone with pics of their machines showing the commodore logo?


I have no idea, but there are lots of cool brands on their site, which I think explains their idea and upcoming offerings quite well!

Here they are, linked directly from the CommodoreUSA Web Page:

(http://www.commodoreusa.net/s.gif)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i/logo/Commodore_Logo_001_2.jpg)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i/logo/amiga_chrome_trail-1.jpg)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i/logo/AmigaBox-1600x1200.jpg)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i/logo/item-3_1-1.jpg)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i/logo/Windows-Logo3.jpg)
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/i/logo/Ubuntu_Logo_Hi_def_by_thediamondsaint.jpg)

...

Here is a thought:

Maybe 2011 will be the year of Amiga? :D

Yes?

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 01, 2010, 06:46:37 PM
Yeah, and you can run PC x86 stuff on it!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jorkany on September 01, 2010, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577126
The Hyperion "settlement" was a robbery. A judicial rape, performed by lawyers (or wannabe such). The only reason Hyperion "won" (which they didn't, not really), was because Amiga Inc completely lacked the means to defend themselves after a certain point. Amiga was defenseless at the end, she was lying on the ground, and Hyperion took what they wanted.

Very well put, and this is my feeling on the matter. I'm not so sure about the defenseless part though, clearly AInc. got something out of the deal - maybe we are about to see what.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Piru on September 01, 2010, 07:00:19 PM
Here's my quick analysis of the situation.

The agreement (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BxlY9g_OfLqDZTQyNGFkYzEtZDI5Zi00YzcxLThhODYtODcyZTg0M2I4MzQ1) first defines some things:
Quote
"Amiga Mark" means any mark owned and/or registered or licensed by or to the Amiga Parties containing the word "Amiga" whether in stylized form (figurative mark) or otherwise.

"Documentation" means the publications listed on Exhibit 4 hereof.

"Software" means Amiga OS 3.1, which is the Operating System (including without limitation its Software Architecture as described in the Documentation) originally developed, owned and marketed by Commodore Business Machines (CBM) for their Amiga line of computers In 1994.

"Software Architecture" means the structure or structures of the system, which comprise software components, the externally visible properties of those components (i.e., those assumptions other elements can make of an element, such as its provided services, performance characteristics, fault handling, shared resource usage, and so on), and the relationships between them; the term also refers to documentation of a system's software architecture.

Here's the Exhibit 4:
Quote
EXHIBIT 4

LIST OF PUBLICATIONS COMPRISING THE DOCUMENTATION

1. The AmigaDOS Manual, 3rd edition,

ISBN 0-553-35403-5

2. Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manual "Libraries", 3rd edition,

ISBN 0-201-56774-1

3. Amiga Hardware Reference Manual, 3rd edition,

ISBN 0-201-56776-8

4. Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manual "Devices", 3rd edition,

ISBN 0-201-56775-x

5. Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manual "Includes and Autodocs",

3rd edition, ISBN 0-201-56773-3

There is a clause:

Quote
In the event the Amiga Parties assign ownership of the Amiga Marks to a third party, including without limitation as result of a transfer by contract or by operation of law, such third party must agree in writing to be bound by the terms and conditions of this Agreement, and to assume the obligations of the Amiga Parties under this Agreement.

This means that if Commodore USA has obtained a valid license to use the name Amiga, they're now signees of the agreement.

**EDIT** Actually as a friend pointed out there is a difference between ownership and possession: "The law permits a trademark owner to license its marks as long as the owner controls the nature and quality of the goods or services bearing the marks." So this clause may not apply in this case after all. However, since the clause below includes wording "including through sub-licensing" I think the only relevance is defining the legal entity to sue in case of disagreement.

Further the agreement stipulates that:
Quote
the Amiga Parties shall during the term of this Agreement not commercialize anywhere in the world (including through sub-licensing), distribute (free of charge or otherwise) or make available to the public (free of charge or otherwise), in any way or form (including but not limited to Object Code and Source Code form), on any medium (now known or otherwise) and through any means (now known or otherwise) the Software (in part or as a whole) and any Operating System exhibiting a Software Architecture substantially similar to the Software Architecture of the Software as described in the Documentation, to the extent that such Software Architecture is protectable under the copyright laws of the United States (a "Substantially Similar Software Architecture").

At this point the case depends on the part "to the extent that such Software Architecture is protectable under the copyright laws of the United States (a "Substantially Similar Software Architecture")".

There's no denying that AROS is substantially similar. However, considering copyright laws protect implementation and not ideas, this could be a hairy case.


**EDIT2** I am not a lawyer nor have I any kind of legal training. What I've done is read the agreement document and try to identify and understand the relevant parts for this situation. That is: I could be dead wrong here. Finally, as you might have noticed I didn't even try to determine which party would ultimately be right in their claims.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 01, 2010, 07:04:45 PM
A inc failed to keep up one side of a contract and got stuffed for it. They gave us nothing but false hope and I have no sympathy for them at all. At least Hyperion have given us OS4. If these amiga branded PC's come out with OS5 on them (LMAO) and if it's better than OS4 then maybe I'll look kindly on them again but to be honest I ain't holding my breath.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 01, 2010, 07:06:38 PM
@Piru

You make a good point, I can see little of any good comming out of this.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Akiko on September 01, 2010, 07:22:10 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577147
A inc failed to keep up one side of a contract and got stuffed for it. They gave us nothing but false hope and I have no sympathy for them at all. At least Hyperion have given us OS4. If these amiga branded PC's come out with OS5 on them (LMAO) and if it's better than OS4 then maybe I'll look kindly on them again but to be honest I ain't holding my breath.

As I understand Hyperion has exclusive rights to AmigaOS, including OS5 and beyond.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 01, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
RAOFLMAO!

Just as well I wasn't holding my breath then. XD
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: odin on September 01, 2010, 08:05:45 PM
Aaaah, this reminds me again why I keep visiting Amiga sites. There's always something new in the Amiga-soap happening =).

/me also warm up a batch of popcorn.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: CSixx on September 01, 2010, 08:18:07 PM
Quote from: jorkany;577121
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think they plan to sue CommodoreUSA? Hyperion never had an agreement with them, if Hyperion sue anyone it seems like it would be AInc.

You are probably just trying to nitpick me, but...
Hyperion suing anyone regarding this agreement affects CommodoreUSA does it not?
I couldn't care less who the actual defendants are, as long as the result is the same.

result = preventing further pollution of the Amiga name
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 08:31:10 PM
@ Piru

OK, this is *my* take on this:

AFAIK, CommodoreUSA *hasn't bought* any IP, they have *licensed* the rights to use of it!

Amiga Inc is of course completely free to license to any third party any and all of it's IP, with few exceptions; which are the OS3.x source/object code/yadayada (that CommodoreUSA doesn't need or want anyway), the words "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaOne" and "Amiga One". Those things are exclusively licensed to Hyperion (who doesn't own them either, despite what many people seems to think. They simply have an exclusive and very extensive license to *use* them for the duration of the agreement). Hyperion has also a license for the Boing Ball, but that one is *not* exclusive, so Amiga Inc is perfectly free to allow anyone else to use that.

And what did they license?

Apparently, Amiga Inc has licensed the trade mark word "Amiga" to CommodoreUSA for use in their "AIO" computers, which is *perfectly fine* according to the "settlement" Hyperion made with Amiga Inc, as long as they will not use the marks exclusively licensed to Hyperion. Which they of course won't do. The name "Amiga" is the only thing CommodoreUSA has licensed AFAIK. Well that, and most certainly some symbols like the graphical representation of the word "Amiga", boing ball, and check mark seen on CommodoreUSA's web site.

Amiga Inc has *not* licensed AROS to CommodoreUSA. They can't do that, since they obviously don't own it or control it in any way.

If CommodoreUSA or anyone else wants to use AROS to whatever purpose for whatever reason, they are perfectly free to do so. It's completely free, and open source. I'm looking forward to the day I can use AROS on my Genesi Efika MX Smartbook myself. Neither Amiga Inc, nor Hyperion, owns or controls AROS. It's independent, and evidently it was here long before both Amiga Inc and Hyperion arrived to make a mess out of Amiga.

I'd say Ben Herman's ramblings of "legal actions" are totally bogus. From what is publicly known, I completely fail to see how Hyperion could possibly manage to sue neither Amiga Inc nor CommodoreUSA for this trade mark license agreement.

I'd say that comment was merely a mindless knee-jerk reaction from the notorious "Legal Clerc"!

Cheers! :)

(http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/toplawyer.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 01, 2010, 08:43:54 PM
Get ready to be inundated with AROS users running low cost PCs thanks to the name of the website.

The Amiga name was the only thing Bill really had he could sell, so I probably shouldn't be surprised.

Even his claim to that may not be that legitimate, but what it matter? He's just going to eliminate the last shred of respect left to the community and sh*t on it.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 01, 2010, 08:45:43 PM
Quote from: Iggy;577158
Get ready to be inundated with AROS users running low cost PCs thanks to the name of the website.

The Amiga name was the only thing Bill really had he could sell, so I probably shouldn't be surprised.

Even his claim to that may not be that legitimate, but what it matter? He's just going to eliminate the last shred of respect left to the community and sh*t on it.


And what would be wrong with that.  That would be a good thing.

Bring on more AROS/MorphOS/AOS4 users.

They are all welcome here
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: dammy on September 01, 2010, 08:46:27 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577157
I'd say that comment was merely a mindless knee-jerk reaction from the notorious "Legal Clerc"!


You really know how to defame legal clerks around the world, don't ya.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: CSixx;577155
You are probably just trying to nitpick me, but...
Hyperion suing anyone regarding this agreement affects CommodoreUSA does it not?
I couldn't care less who the actual defendants are, as long as the result is the same.

result = preventing further pollution of the Amiga name


The insinuation that Hyperion would own the Amiga name, or have anything whatsoever to say about it, is simply hilarious. Where on earth does this misconception come from?

Had Amiga Inc tried to license out any of the four words "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaOne", "Amiga One", then I would understand your stance, since Hyperion could easily point to their own contract they have with Amiga Inc that stipulates that those particular words (but nothing else) are to be considered for *exclusive use* by Hyperion, for the duration of the agreement.

But as it is now? Nope! Except for those four exceptions I quoted above, Amiga Inc is completely free to use *their own* trade marks the way they see fit! :)

Look at the Hyperion/Amiga Inc agreement; I think "Definition G" and "Grant 1c" would be the most relevant parts in this case...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 01, 2010, 08:50:13 PM
Wow what a load of fuss over nothing... :eek:

C'mon folks how many times over the years have we heard all these legal arguments and debates, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee... :rolleyes:

Short of some deranged super die hard Amiga fanatic coming along and willing to spend all his cash on buying up the rights to the Commodore & Amiga legacy and funding new R&D and actually producing a new Amiga, there's not a hope in hell of us every seeing a new Amiga in the true sense of the word. :(

You stand a far better chance of me actually saying something sensible than that ever happening... :biglaugh:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 01, 2010, 08:53:31 PM
Quote from: dammy;577161
You really know how to defame legal clerks around the world, don't ya.


"I am not defaming anybody's character, I have not even identified a specific person." (Benjamin Hermans)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jorkany on September 01, 2010, 09:06:03 PM
Quote from: CSixx;577155
You are probably just trying to nitpick me, but...
Hyperion suing anyone regarding this agreement affects CommodoreUSA does it not?
Well on the one hand CommodoreUSA is using a name granted to them by AInc. Suing CommodoreUSA and winning would prevent that entity from using the name. Suing AInc. and winning would prevent AInc. from allowing any future entities to use the name.

But since CommodoreUSA isn't using the name "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", or "AmigaOne", I'm not clear on what Hyperion would be suing them about. Hyperion isn't Amiga, after all.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: kolla on September 01, 2010, 09:10:27 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577157
Well that, and most certainly some symbols like the graphical representation of the word "Amiga", boing ball, and check mark seen on CommodoreUSA's web site.

AFAIK the checkmark is an abandoned trademark that today is public domain. If not, someone better sue me for my fantastic indigo T-shirts with nice rainbow checkmark on them :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: rebraist on September 01, 2010, 09:46:57 PM
I really don't understand our community.
It seems to me this commodoreusa stuff is a great thing for us and for amiga.
I don't know you all but I want to see new amiga software in the shops.
I want to see amiga related newspapers.
What is amiga to me? It's an alchemy.
It's an alchemy between:
- great hardware
- great software
- affordable price
This alchemy, like or not, is only doable going x86: the best hardware at the best price. The best sware is a thing you have to write on.
Doesn't Hyperion like it?
Well, take aos4 and compile it for x86.
Piracy? A joke.
How many registered users are there in ppc market? Very little.
They could sell more more more on x86.
Even if piracy plague should strike aos4, sellings would be surely better.
And hyperion could make real money. Not "hobby" money.
The real problem for hyperion is another: the concurrency by mainstream os's.
aos4 (and morphos) goes well on little ppc market because it's made by hobbysts to hobbysts.
When you'd change platform and have to look at ms and apple, well the things for these os go very very bad.
And surely hyperion should spend time and money to port aos4 to x86.
But has amiga to be blocked with this legacy?
Amiga is dead with jay miner.
What is alive is the idea of what tripos, lorraine and c-brand could have been.
Great hardware
Great os.
Affordable price.
 
I don't know if commodoreusa will make it but i hope so.
About a-eon: their a1-x1000, in proportion, is much more affordable and has surely a much more right price than sam mbs.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: dammy on September 01, 2010, 10:01:44 PM
@ rebraist

Quote
About a-eon: their a1-x1000, in proportion, is much more affordable and has surely a much more right price than sam mbs.

How do you figure that?  Beta Board (mobo/cpu/ram) is 1,150 GBP.  If you add in case, gfx card, hd, dvd, and whatever else a end user wants plus UK's new 20% VAT, your probably looking at least 1,700 GBP.    How does that make it, with running on only one core, better price then a SAM?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: guest7146 on September 01, 2010, 10:07:48 PM
Quote from: rebraist;577171
I really don't understand our community.
It seems to me this commodoreusa stuff is a great thing for us and for amiga.
I don't know you all but I want to see new amiga software in the shops.
I want to see amiga related newspapers.

I don't think this rebranded PC is going to grant you your wishes, and it's certainly not going to grant me mine.  I'm all for new products for the Amiga community, and I'm even okay with the whole AmigaOS/AROS/MorphOS thing these days, but the idea of taking a crappy looking PC, sticking an Amiga sticker on it and selling it under the Amiga name... that's just an embarrassment.

Sure, OS4 isn't exactly at the cutting edge yet, but given the circumstances I think it's come a long way and despite its short-comings the Amiga community can at least be proud of it.  Same goes for the MorphOS crowd.
But I can't possibly bring myself to be proud of a crappy rebranded PC, that's just total rubbish.

Also, that "Amino" thing they have on their website... total load of crap.  It looks horrible, and there's no market for a desktop based PC like that these days anyway.  It wouldn't be so bad if it had some kind of cutting edge appeal to it but that's simply not the case.

Sorry, but as much as I hate to be negative, I just don't see this as a good thing for the Amiga community.  It's my own personal opinion of course, so I can't speak for the Amiga community at large, but from my point of view I think it's a load of rubbish and I hope it never sees the light of day.

AH.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Piru on September 01, 2010, 10:23:48 PM
The plot thickens:

Commodore USA Threatens OSNews with Legal Action (http://www.osnews.com/story/23756/Commodore_USA_Threatens_OSNews_with_Legal_Action)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: wawrzon on September 01, 2010, 10:32:28 PM
call me retarded but from a perspective of the 68k user all this quarrel amounts to nothing. neither hyperions dead end os4 nor funny advances to suck out what money are left within community with a rebranded pc hw are securing any future perspective. i see only the unleashed animosity here (on forums), no vision, and without such its all doomed to fail anyway. my sympathy is for aros if only why im using a cut down derivate of it on a classic. i welcome mos as alternative but never has got deep enough to get into it. and i bought and have used os4 on my a4k okay but i lost attention to it quite some time ago. nevertheless it is embrassing to see many mos and aros users taking sides with an unquestionable hoax just for the sake to see os4 and its follower in ashes.

HOLD ON FOR A MOMENT!!!!!!! nothing has happened as yet. announecments have been done, mostly substanceless. both from os4 camp (aox1k) and also from these "commodores" usa (whatever). none can tell if and when they materialize. think like sane people if only for a minute. nothing depends on you, so why are you discussing myths???? there is no actual impact by these news on your situation for now, it can only bias your expectation, and it is whats is aimed for. so be cautious..
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Kronos on September 01, 2010, 10:33:19 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577157

I'd say Ben Herman's ramblings of "legal actions" are totally bogus. From what is publicly known, I completely fail to see how Hyperion could possibly manage to sue neither Amiga Inc nor CommodoreUSA for this trade mark license agreement.


I'd say, if this really goes to court (which I doubt) both sides will be so cashstrapped that the 1st blow will be fatal. So whoever manages to get an injunction blocking the other sides products or finds a way to make the other sides legal fees skyrocket will "win".

@Piru
*coke-spill*
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: wawrzon on September 01, 2010, 10:39:27 PM
@piru: sounds like fun.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 01, 2010, 10:39:39 PM
Quote from: Piru;577175
   This means that if Commodore USA has obtained a valid license to use the name Amiga, they're now signees of the agreement.

**EDIT** Actually as a friend pointed out there is a difference between ownership and possession: "The law permits a trademark owner to license its marks as long as the owner controls the nature and quality of the goods or services bearing the marks." So this clause may not apply in this case after all. However, since the clause below includes wording "including through sub-licensing" I think the only relevance is defining the legal entity to sue in case of disagreement.


Good analysis Piru.

Regarding the owner controlling the nature and quality of the goods and services, I'm pretty sure there were stipulations that Amiga Inc can exercise quality control over Hyperion products bearing the AmigaOS (etc) name.  The clause therefore may apply.  I may be a bit confused though!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: odin on September 01, 2010, 10:42:56 PM
Quote from: piru;577175
the plot thickens:

commodore usa threatens osnews with legal action (http://www.osnews.com/story/23756/commodore_usa_threatens_osnews_with_legal_action)

:roflmao:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Pete_Noir on September 01, 2010, 10:53:45 PM
Maybe this will end like an episode of Scooby Doo. Barry is unmasked as none other than..gasp.. Bill McEwen! If it wasn't for those meddling kids..
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 01, 2010, 10:59:24 PM
I'm afraid these events are pretty much the final straw for me.

I was interested in an X1000.  I have the money now waiting for it, but this just brings uncertainty.  I never liked the AmigaOne name, and now we could end up in the farcical situation that we have computers called Amiga that do not run an Amiga OS, and other computers called AmigaOne that do run an Amiga OS.  That is just confusing and will never appeal to outsiders.

What is more is that this CommodoreUSA can only use their licenses to produce computers in a keyboard style.  So no range of machines like there used to be.  How limiting.  Or does all in one apply to laptops, netbooks and slates too?  I doubt it.

I'm not interested at all in the product offerings of CommodoreUSA regarding their proposed Amiga range.

I've tried AROS, and it is hit and miss which hardware it supports.  I wish it luck, but I don't think it's for me.

I haven't tried Morphos, know very little about it, have no animosity towards it, but it doesn't appeal to me either.

I'm afraid I think I am now finished with the Amiga and it's array of flavours.  I desperately wanted some fun again when using computers, but it's all been trashed again.

I guess I may still consider a Sam460.  At least that would be a bit less money wasted.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Pete_Noir on September 01, 2010, 11:33:35 PM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577188
What is more is that this CommodoreUSA can only use their licenses to produce computers in a keyboard style.

Well, shitty as it may be, at least in that case CUSA can stick with their x86s with AROS/Windows, and Hyperion/ACube/A-Eon etc can keep doing what they're doing. Not all that much will change. I doubt anyone who was planning to buy an X1000 or Sam will suddenly buy a Commdore USA PC instead just because it has a special sticker on it.

Who knows, with all this in the news, it may draw more attention to AmigaOS from people who weren't previously aware it was still in existence.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 01, 2010, 11:43:46 PM
Quote from: Pete_Noir;577194
Who knows, with all this in the news, it may draw more attention to AmigaOS from people who weren't previously aware it was still in existence.

We can always use a handful of new trolls!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 01, 2010, 11:46:45 PM
Quote from: Franko;577163
Wow what a load of fuss over nothing... :eek:

C'mon folks how many times over the years have we heard all these legal arguments and debates, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee... :rolleyes:

Short of some deranged super die hard Amiga fanatic coming along and willing to spend all his cash on buying up the rights to the Commodore & Amiga legacy and funding new R&D and actually producing a new Amiga, there's not a hope in hell of us every seeing a new Amiga in the true sense of the word. :(

You stand a far better chance of me actually saying something sensible than that ever happening... :biglaugh:


Well to be fair OS4 + AmigaOne X1000 is actually a genuine alternative to PC/Mac. Hell 99% of Mac hardware is identical to Windows PCs.

But this Barry Altman prick of a guy is just a joke and anything he sells stinks of shit. It's not that I expect anyone with a clue to do something clever like reverse engineer the basics of the Xenon CPUd Xbox360 motherboard...it's more that I wish they would just let Amiga die peacefully and with some dignity.

That's all there is to this particular topic I suspect with most genuine Amigans. And that's if you believe Bill McEwan actually granted this or maybe it's just bullshit from Barry because he knows Bill has disappeared down a black hole and so the whole thing is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Modern OS4 capable hardware = good
AROS used for non profit = good
Barry Altman = prick

;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: TheGoose on September 01, 2010, 11:47:04 PM
I'm think like 3 way cage match, one night only!

OS News

Commodore USA

Hyperion

-----------------

Fight!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 02, 2010, 12:09:37 AM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577157

Apparently, Amiga Inc has licensed the trade mark word "Amiga" to CommodoreUSA


Let's get this right. A "Trademark" is just that. A way of marking your goods for the purpose of trade. You cannot "Trademark" a word that exists in a real language as this is considered a generic mark. Otherwise I would Trademark the word "Cleaner" and sue the arse off of thousands of companies. What you can trademark is the graphical representation of that word, and, to a lesser extent, the fair use of that word. It could be argued that the word "Amiga" on a computer could be what is trademarked. However, under "Fair usage" Hyperion could arque that the fair usage of the AmigaOS trademark (please hold in mind the graphical representation of that mark) is infringed by the Amiga trademark (written in the same graphical style) on another computer (made by say, commodoreUS) and Ainc. would find themselves with a case to answer yet again.

Having said that it's all pancakes to me, my interest is in Natami and SAM.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 02, 2010, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: Franko;577163

Short of some deranged super die hard Amiga fanatic coming along and willing to spend all his cash on buying up the rights to the Commodore & Amiga legacy and funding new R&D and actually producing a new Amiga, there's not a hope in hell of us every seeing a new Amiga in the true sense of the word.


Have you been looking at my "Things to do" list?
That one's listed under "Win the lottery".
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Lando on September 02, 2010, 12:20:16 AM
I can't understand people's negativity.  There was a day everyone would have been ecstatic over the prospect of new officially-branded Amiga computers, from a company called Commodore, running an Amiga-compatible OS.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on September 02, 2010, 12:24:07 AM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577188
I'm afraid these events are pretty much the final straw for me.

I was interested in an X1000.  I have the money now waiting for it, but this just brings uncertainty.  I never liked the AmigaOne name, and now we could end up in the farcical situation that we have computers called Amiga that do not run an Amiga OS, and other computers called AmigaOne that do run an Amiga OS.  That is just confusing and will never appeal to outsiders.

What is more is that this CommodoreUSA can only use their licenses to produce computers in a keyboard style.  So no range of machines like there used to be.  How limiting.  Or does all in one apply to laptops, netbooks and slates too?  I doubt it.

I'm not interested at all in the product offerings of CommodoreUSA regarding their proposed Amiga range.

I've tried AROS, and it is hit and miss which hardware it supports.  I wish it luck, but I don't think it's for me.

I haven't tried Morphos, know very little about it, have no animosity towards it, but it doesn't appeal to me either.

I'm afraid I think I am now finished with the Amiga and it's array of flavours.  I desperately wanted some fun again when using computers, but it's all been trashed again.

I guess I may still consider a Sam460.  At least that would be a bit less money wasted.


No just get lost, you clearly have issues. I suppose you must also be upset by all the different Linux versions and the fact that Mac dumped 68k and then PowerPC.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 02, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;577199
But this Barry Altman prick of a guy is just a joke and anything he sells stinks of shit.
;)

You haven't contacted him yet. He's one serious asshole! The first line in his response to me was to ask what rock I crawled out from under. Each of you with a viewpoint ought to contact him (the e-mail address is part of the threatening letter to OSNews).

The fact that he's dumb enough to enter into a business relationship with Bill McEwen speaks volumes.

What's most offensive is he and Bill getting together to try to market something created by our community. Hey, AROS may be free, but does that mean that someone with no interest in our market other than making a profit should be allowed to take the hard work of others and slap it into some generic piece of crap and call it an Amiga?

Altman and McEwen? As far as I'm concerned, both notorious con men and serious detriment to the Amiga community
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 12:33:33 AM
Commodore USA, LLC (http://sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?action=DETFIL&inq_doc_number=L10000033511&inq_came_from=NAMFWD&cor_web_names_seq_number=0000&names_name_ind=N&names_cor_number=&names_name_seq=&names_name_ind=&names_comp_name=COMMODOREUSA&names_filing_type=) world headquarters. (http://maps.google.com/maps?expIds=17259,25798,25900,26119,26325&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=5250+NE+20TH+AVE+fort+lauderdale,+fl&cp=36&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=5250+NE+20th+Ave,+Fort+Lauderdale,+FL+33308&gl=us&ei=ITB4TNH3MsH48Ab7yo2vBw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ8gEwAA)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 02, 2010, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;577207
No just get lost, you clearly have issues. I suppose you must also be upset by all the different Linux versions and the fact that Mac dumped 68k and then PowerPC.


That's rather rude! What's this guy done to you to make such you treat him in such an offensive manner? He is entitled to his opinion just as you are. Clearly you also have "issues".

This may help:

http://www.angermanagementaustralia.com.au/
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Darrin on September 02, 2010, 01:03:25 AM
@ Redrumloa:

"Commodore USA, LLC world headquarters. "

Which is somebody's house in the middle of a sub-division.  Nice swimming pool.  :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 02, 2010, 01:03:46 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;577207
No just get lost, you clearly have issues. I suppose you must also be upset by all the different Linux versions and the fact that Mac dumped 68k and then PowerPC.


If disappointment counts as "issues", sure I have issues.  What can possibly be encouraging about another round of legal battles just when it looked like things were in the clear?

As for the other stuff about Mac and Linux??  What???  What has that got to do with Amiga?

As it happens I don't consider Linux fun to use, and I have never even used a modern Mac.  The old ones were horrendous to use compared to my fun Amiga.

As for me getting lost.  Get some manners.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 01:07:09 AM
Quote from: Darrin;577214
@ Redrumloa:

"Commodore USA, LLC world headquarters. "

Which is somebody's house in the middle of a sub-division.  Nice swimming pool.  :)

And it is local to me, I know the area well. I am contemplating taking a picture of Commodore USA, LLC's world's headquarters so the world may know.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 02, 2010, 01:09:38 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577210
That's rather rude! What's this guy done to you to make such you treat him in such an offensive manner? He is entitled to his opinion just as you are. Clearly you also have "issues".

This may help:

http://www.angermanagementaustralia.com.au/


Thanks triptaka, I'm hope that's the way others see it too.

I was merely expressing disappointment at yet another (in my opinion) negative turn of events.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 01:12:21 AM
BTW I did not read every post in this thread, but I will simply ask everyone PLEASE be polite to each other. Everyone has different opinions, just express them politely.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: spihunter on September 02, 2010, 01:34:50 AM
HA HA HA HA!!! I knew it was someones house before I clicked the link. Hey. he's got a mini van?. That's some street cred right there!


Quote from: redrumloa;577209
Commodore USA, LLC (http://sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?action=DETFIL&inq_doc_number=L10000033511&inq_came_from=NAMFWD&cor_web_names_seq_number=0000&names_name_ind=N&names_cor_number=&names_name_seq=&names_name_ind=&names_comp_name=COMMODOREUSA&names_filing_type=) world headquarters. (http://maps.google.com/maps?expIds=17259,25798,25900,26119,26325&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=5250+NE+20TH+AVE+fort+lauderdale,+fl&cp=36&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=5250+NE+20th+Ave,+Fort+Lauderdale,+FL+33308&gl=us&ei=ITB4TNH3MsH48Ab7yo2vBw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ8gEwAA)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 01:44:57 AM
It looks like Barry does not own Commodore USA, LLC headquarters (http://bcpa.net/RecInfo.asp?URL_Folio=494213031150).
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 02, 2010, 02:03:26 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;577218
BTW I did not read every post in this thread, but I will simply ask everyone PLEASE be polite to each other. Everyone has different opinions, just express them politely.

I'll try Red, but Barry Altman's a real jerk. I've already received two messages from him that reference my "balls".

He seems really fixated on testicles.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 02:04:57 AM
Quote from: Iggy;577223
I'll try Red, but Barry Altman's a real jerk. I've already received two messages from him that reference my "balls".

He seems really fixated on testicles.

Thanks iggy. As you probably see from my posts, I am no fanboy despite the name. I'd like to see the truth out there.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Darrin on September 02, 2010, 02:10:44 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;577216
And it is local to me, I know the area well. I am contemplating taking a picture of Commodore USA, LLC's world's headquarters so the world may know.


Take a soccer ball with you, knock on the door and when they answer say in a kids voice "Does Barry want to come out to play?"

:D
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 02:15:11 AM
Quote from: Darrin;577225
Take a soccer ball with you, knock on the door and when they answer say in a kids voice "Does Barry want to come out to play?"

:D

I was thinking about taking a video camera and driving diving down Dixie Highway first, so I can film the hookers on the way past Commodore USA, LLC's HQ.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: KThunder on September 02, 2010, 02:22:17 AM
never mind
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Darrin on September 02, 2010, 02:24:07 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;577226
I was thinking about taking a video camera and driving diving down Dixie Highway first, so I can film the hookers on the way past Commodore USA, LLC's HQ.


Hookers?  Damn, last time I was in that area all I got to do was stuff Dollar bills into the girls' garters at The Pink Pussycat.  :(
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 02:34:40 AM
Quote from: Darrin;577229
Hookers?  Damn, last time I was in that area all I got to do was stuff Dollar bills into the girls' garters at The Pink Pussycat.  :(

Ha! Actually, the defunct Pink Pussycat is a good 8 miles away or so. This neighborhood is not horrible in a relative sense, but a few miles away the chickenheads are quite common.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 02, 2010, 02:58:43 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;577221
It looks like Barry does not own Commodore USA, LLC headquarters (http://bcpa.net/RecInfo.asp?URL_Folio=494213031150).


RENEE J SCHEIBER is Renee S. Altman.

http://ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/90772079.pdf

http://www.psychsolutions4u.com/page/page/1572220.htm

Not exactly the most trustworthy person, apparently.

http://www.psychsearch.net/pdf/200102488.pdf
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Argo on September 02, 2010, 03:48:30 AM
Wow! This Funk need more Cowbell!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: hooligan on September 02, 2010, 05:30:10 AM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577188

I haven't tried Morphos, know very little about it, have no animosity towards it, but it doesn't appeal to me either.


By all means try it before making any decisions. Even Youtube can help you understand MorphOS a bit better if you cant touch the real thing.

Commodore USA most probably lost a few customers by threatening OSNews.. well done there :/
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Thorham on September 02, 2010, 05:54:48 AM
Quote from: Lando;577206
I can't understand people's negativity.  There was a day everyone would have been ecstatic over the prospect of new officially-branded Amiga computers, from a company called Commodore, running an Amiga-compatible OS.
Why would anyone get ecstatic over a peecee with Aros? Want one? Buy a peecee and install Aros, done.

Branding ordinary peecees as Amigas is a huge insult to the Amiga :( and I hope the new 'Commodore' goes to hell very quickly :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577204
Let's get this right. A "Trademark" is just that. A way of marking your goods for the purpose of trade. You cannot "Trademark" a word that exists in a real language as this is considered a generic mark. Otherwise I would Trademark the word "Cleaner" and sue the arse off of thousands of companies. What you can trademark is the graphical representation of that word, and, to a lesser extent, the fair use of that word. It could be argued that the word "Amiga" on a computer could be what is trademarked.


I think it has never been any disputes and questions whatsoever about Commodore's, Escom's, Gateway's and Amiga Inc's registered trademark "Amiga". It would be "funny" to try to make an "issue" of that now...? I mean, even Hyperion has acknowledged and helped established this through their deal with Amiga Inc.

Quote
However, under "Fair usage" Hyperion could arque that the fair usage of the AmigaOS trademark (please hold in mind the graphical representation of that mark) is infringed by the Amiga trademark (written in the same graphical style) on another computer (made by say, commodoreUS)


Hyperion does *not* have a license for the use of the mark "Amiga". Their license explicitly grants them the right to use the four marks "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaONE", "Amiga ONE". See the difference? The four latter marks are for exclusive use by Hyperion. Nothing more, nothing less. As long as Amiga Inc (or anyone else) stays clear from those, everything is perfectly fine. (And this goes the other way around as well, as Hyperion had better stay away from "Amiga").

I can't see no mention in the contract (but maybe I missed it? If so, please point me to the right spot!) of:
1) Hyperion would even have been granted a right to use any specific and particular graphical representation of any trademark (except for "the Boing Ball", which is explicitly not exclusive)
2) That this granted right (if it's even there, which I think not) should in any way be exclusive to Hyperion

In fact, it's even specifically pointed out, for the sake of clarity (just to avoid situations like the one you try to paint to us), in the Hyperion/Amiga Inc agreement, that the Amiga Parties (Amiga Inc, ltec, Amino collectively, as defined per the topmost paragraph of the deal) are indeed the ones with the right to the "Amiga Mark" (as defined in Definitions C: "any mark owned and/or registered or licensed by or to the Amiga Parties containing the word "Amiga" whether in stylized form (figurative mark) or otherwise"), and that the Amiga Parties have the right to continue to use "the mark 'AMIGA' alone or in conjunction with other words, so long as 'OS' or 'One' does not directly follow the word 'AMIGA'." (as defined in Grant 1c).

There is no ground for confusion, everything is perfectly clear; Amiga Inc has the rights to the Amiga trade mark, including any "stylized form" it may be pictured in. Hyperion has the rights to use the "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaONE", "Amiga ONE" marks, in no particular stylized form (as far as I can see), and as long as Amiga Inc, Commodore and anyone else stays clear of those four marks, Hyperion does not have any grounds whatsoever for "legal actions".

Quote
Having said that it's all pancakes to me, my interest is in Natami and SAM.


Well, Natami I can understand, but Sam? Does it even have a Amiga sticker? ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 07:41:15 AM
Quote from: Darrin;577214
@ Redrumloa:

"Commodore USA, LLC world headquarters. "

Which is somebody's house in the middle of a sub-division.  Nice swimming pool.  :)


Which is hardly anything unique in the context. Amiga Inc, Acube, A-EON, possibly Hyperion, Genesi, etc, are all companies with no needs for big office buildings. They can all have their "world head quarter" in their laptop and cell phone, and do just fine...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 07:42:29 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;577216
And it is local to me, I know the area well. I am contemplating taking a picture of Commodore USA, LLC's world's headquarters so the world may know.


Now don't turn into a stalker, that's just ugly. If you are close to him, why don't you call him, arrange for a meeting at some local café, and do a little interview?

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: kolla on September 02, 2010, 08:02:10 AM
The ironic part is that PCs with Amiga stickers is most likely what old CBM would have done too :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on September 02, 2010, 08:20:14 AM
I've heard of price sticker rage, now people are getting worked up about a brand name sticker. You should calm down.
I see this as a novelty item, if someone wants to sell AROS boxes why stop them? If they are not legit, why feed them?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: TCMSLP on September 02, 2010, 09:11:29 AM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577188
I have the money now waiting for it, but this just brings uncertainty.


You've hit the nail on the head.  I have no idea what the other poster waas ranting about :s

Uncertainty in a market that currently requires confidence to succeed (the X1000) could be a disaster.  I really do hope this isn't the case and most people aren't disuaded from from their purcahses of X1000's, SAM's etc.


Steve
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Akiko on September 02, 2010, 09:16:00 AM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577267
Now don't turn into a stalker, that's just ugly. If you are close to him, why don't you call him, arrange for a meeting at some local café, and do a little interview?

:)



In other words please don't expose his newfound friend! ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: BigBenAussie on September 02, 2010, 09:52:57 AM
@mongo
You know.....dragging in family members is NOT cool.

It's just a funky retro computer!!!!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Piru on September 02, 2010, 09:57:39 AM
Quote from: BigBenAussie;577281
It's just a funky retro computer!

What is?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 02, 2010, 11:33:11 AM
Quote from: BigBenAussie;577281
@mongo
You know.....dragging in family members is NOT cool.
 
It's just a funky retro computer!!!!


Was waiting for you to pop-up.
 
Its not a funky retro computer.  Its modern hardware.  What is retro about that.
 
You might be able to argue that its retro "looking" but they even had more style in 80's and 90's with regards to cases.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 02, 2010, 11:42:05 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;577270
I've heard of price sticker rage, now people are getting worked up about a brand name sticker. You should calm down.
I see this as a novelty item, if someone wants to sell AROS boxes why stop them? If they are not legit, why feed them?


Sure, like we'll listen to you telling people the calm down after your behaviour on this thread.

Good one!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 02, 2010, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: TCMSLP;577276
You've hit the nail on the head.  I have no idea what the other poster waas ranting about :s

Uncertainty in a market that currently requires confidence to succeed (the X1000) could be a disaster.  I really do hope this isn't the case and most people aren't disuaded from from their purcahses of X1000's, SAM's etc.


Steve


Sadly, since making my comment, I've seen two other similar comments on Amiga forums.

It's a lot of money to pay out for an X1000, and I do want confidence in my purchase.  I can't see how a company with such perceived small revenues can continually spend it's time in court.

To be clear I want an X1000 so I can run OS4 on it, not anything else.  I can do that on a PC.  That is it's only use to me.  If Hyperion spend their money and effort on yet another legal case, I can only see it doing them and their product harm.  This discourages me from parting with my money.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 02, 2010, 12:26:34 PM
I think we need an URGENT update to AROS......

One where the boot/splash screen has in nuclear green luminous flashing fonts the words "Barry S Altman and CommodoreUSA are a big con, do not purchase, reverse your VISA payment immediately" ;)

Oh and if you want an Amiga PC here is how you make one....

1. Buy PC for peanuts in PC World
2. Purchase boing ball sticker on ebay for 99 cents
3. Boot from your downloaded DVD ISO of ICAROS and choose 'intall' once DVD booted.

Think I will make some bullshit website with the name Commodore somewhere in it and start a new trend of releasing press releases on my website that nobody can confirm because Bill has been kidnapped by Aliens or passed into a parallel universe a la Fringe ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 02, 2010, 12:28:41 PM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577304
Sadly, since making my comment, I've seen two other similar comments on Amiga forums.

It's a lot of money to pay out for an X1000, and I do want confidence in my purchase.  I can't see how a company with such perceived small revenues can continually spend it's time in court.

To be clear I want an X1000 so I can run OS4 on it, not anything else.  I can do that on a PC.  That is it's only use to me.  If Hyperion spend their money and effort on yet another legal case, I can only see it doing them and their product harm.  This discourages me from parting with my money.


Well no, because if anyone would be able to confirm if Bill McEwan even agreed to this it is Hyperion. And if it's bullshit as we suspect some lawyers will be tearing Barry Altman a new asshole in court. Win/win
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: cicero790 on September 02, 2010, 12:55:22 PM
Now when the traditional and most holy rite of new project mudslinging is nearly at an end, and everyone is greased down from top to toe, happy, refreshed and slightly tired,  I send a hope that everyone is intact to mind and body, and I look very much forward to follow this promising project IMHO.

I don't know who's made them and I don't care but then I first laid eyes on these machines on CUSA it was an instant “Oh, yes.”

I started on a A500 and went on to the A1200. I never owned a boxed Amiga, so what I saw in those pics was a logic style evolution of the familiar 1200 design. Again IMHO.

I think most ppl in this community knows what they like and what they don't like. Some are insanely knowledgeable hardware experts that feel uncomfortable if some detail is wrong from the original design. Some are software experts that can't live if something deviate from the 3.1 code of which I never saw a single line, since I'm a user only.
I do not think any of the other projects are threatened by this. They got their own following for  different and justified reasons.

The good thing that could come out of this is that more ppl finds their way back into Amiga controlled territory. And I think Aros, which I like and use, could get attention from outside, in a positive way and maybe more ppl will get involved in developing. If this means that some machines that look like a natural evolution from the original design will be supported, then what is the crime against humanity in that. I think it just splendid if machines looking like that, with commodore brand an all, is available to run Aros on them.

The x1000 was never aimed at a replacing PC if I understand, and ppl following this want a powerhouse for AmigaOS, and that is underway thanks to dedicated ppl.

Morph forms the perfect and natural bridge for MAC users to get back to Amiga, and with new models supported more power is available for productivity apps.

This project could fill its own niche and purpose and benefit Aros I think.

I hope it turns out well.

H*ll of a day at sea, sir!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on September 02, 2010, 01:11:40 PM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577304
Sadly, since making my comment, I've seen two other similar comments on Amiga forums.

It's a lot of money to pay out for an X1000, and I do want confidence in my purchase.  I can't see how a company with such perceived small revenues can continually spend it's time in court.

To be clear I want an X1000 so I can run OS4 on it, not anything else.  I can do that on a PC.  That is it's only use to me.  If Hyperion spend their money and effort on yet another legal case, I can only see it doing them and their product harm.  This discourages me from parting with my money.


If I had the money for an x1000, I'd stuff it all into a cannon and fire it off into the atmosphere.
If you want to do something useful with the money buy an FPGA arcade, a PC and put the rest into an AROS bounty for porting the kickstart and whatever graphics card you use.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 02, 2010, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577264

Hyperion does *not* have a license for the use of the mark "Amiga". Their license explicitly grants them the right to use the four marks "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaONE", "Amiga ONE". See the difference? The four latter marks are for exclusive use by Hyperion. Nothing more, nothing less. As long as Amiga Inc (or anyone else) stays clear from those, everything is perfectly fine. (And this goes the other way around as well, as Hyperion had better stay away from "Amiga").


I never stated that Hyperion had a license for the use of the mark "Amiga". Check my post. The mark I mentioned for Hyperion was "AmigaOS", so yes, I know the difference. As for everything being fine if A Inc avoid the exclusive Hyperion TM's, well that's not exactly true. Issues can arise from similar marks eg. if I marked a car "Fyord" in Fords graphical style, I could get sued. I'm not saying this would happen, I was just pointing out that it could.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577264

I can't see no mention in the contract (but maybe I missed it? If so, please point me to the right spot!) of:
1) Hyperion would even have been granted a right to use any specific and particular graphical representation of any trademark (except for "the Boing Ball", which is explicitly not exclusive)


ALL Trademarks are specific graphical representations first and foremost. Different graphical representations are more subjective in law and fall under the fair usage scenario, hence why courts are needed to settle such issues.
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577264

2) That this granted right (if it's even there, which I think not) should in any way be exclusive to Hyperion


We know what is granted to Hyperion as exclusive, you've stated Hyperions exclusive rights yourself.
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577264

In fact, it's even specifically pointed out, for the sake of clarity (just to avoid situations like the one you try to paint to us), in the Hyperion/Amiga Inc agreement, that the Amiga Parties (Amiga Inc, ltec, Amino collectively, as defined per the topmost paragraph of the deal) are indeed the ones with the right to the "Amiga Mark" (as defined in Definitions C: "any mark owned and/or registered or licensed by or to the Amiga Parties containing the word "Amiga" whether in stylized form (figurative mark) or otherwise"), and that the Amiga Parties have the right to continue to use "the mark 'AMIGA' alone or in conjunction with other words, so long as 'OS' or 'One' does not directly follow the word 'AMIGA'." (as defined in Grant 1c).

There is no ground for confusion, everything is perfectly clear; Amiga Inc has the rights to the Amiga trade mark, including any "stylized form" it may be pictured in. Hyperion has the rights to use the "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaONE", "Amiga ONE" marks, in no particular stylized form (as far as I can see), and as long as Amiga Inc, Commodore and anyone else stays clear of those four marks, Hyperion does not have any grounds whatsoever for "legal actions".

If I paint it's with a brush, I'm passing opinion only on this forum not "painting", I have a studio for that.
Hyperions rights over certain words do not get constrained by graphical style as they are not singular words from an existing language. As for AIncs rights, that's not as clear cut as the wording implies as the word "Amiga" is a standard spanish word. This means that the TM holder (AInc) must fall back on graphical representation to protect ownership of the mark or on fair usage. It is on the very issue of fair usage that Hyperion could (I do not imply they would or that they would be successful if they did) argue that although AInc. hold the Amiga TM it is unfair usage to use it on a computer (like me using Fyord you see). I make this point only to inform, I personally see no need for Hyperion to react as CommodoreUS and AInc are quite frankly seen as a joke by many in this community.
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577264

Well, Natami I can understand, but Sam? Does it even have a Amiga sticker? ;)

Maybe I'll cut one with my vinyl cutter and stick it on ;) Maybe I'll make a couple of spares and give them away to so people can stick them on PCs they already own. Maybe I'll send you a couple. XD
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 05:05:54 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577324
I never stated that Hyperion had a license for the use of the mark "Amiga". Check my post.


OK, I apologize, but lots of people in the debate seems to believe otherwise. And many also seems to think that Hyperion *own* the trademark (which they of course never did). Let's just say the clarification was for them! :)

Quote
The mark I mentioned for Hyperion was "AmigaOS", so yes, I know the difference. As for everything being fine if A Inc avoid the exclusive Hyperion TM's, well that's not exactly true. Issues can arise from similar marks eg. if I marked a car "Fyord" in Fords graphical style, I could get sued. I'm not saying this would happen, I was just pointing out that it could.


If the Ford company is the one owning the Ford brand, they can consider this brand to be a kind of Intellectual Property. The base logic in the free world is that anyone is free to do whatever they want with their property (with lots of exceptions of course ;)). So let's say they sub-license a variation of the mark, "Ford SNOW", to a snow mobile manufacturer for the explicit use on snow mobiles only.

The company behind "Ford SNOW" even acknowledge in the contract that the Ford company still owns the "Ford" mark, and are free to use it, as long as they aren't using it for branding snow mobiles.

Then they would have no grounds whatsoever for a law suit if the Ford company makes another license deal, but this time "Ford BOAT" for use explicitly to market boats.

Quote
ALL Trademarks are specific graphical representations first and foremost.


Not true. Sure, a trademark *can* be a graphical image. Like a logotype, for instance. It can also be a color, a sound, a tune, etc. And it can also be a word in plain text.

I think it's clear that Hyperion got an exclusive license to use "AmigaOS", "Amiga OS", "AmigaONE" and "Amiga ONE". In plain text.

Question is whether they have a license to any kind of particular graphical representation of  those words, and if so, if that is exclusive? I couldn't find that in the contract. Did I miss it?

Quote
As for AIncs rights, that's not as clear cut as the wording implies as the word "Amiga" is a standard spanish word. This means that the TM holder (AInc) must fall back on graphical representation to protect ownership of the mark or on fair usage.


Not true, you register a trade mark (could very well be a word or a combination of words) for use in marketing for a particular and defined product. The color blue is just as general as the Spanish word "Amiga", even more so even, but try marketing a cola-beverage using this color, and watch how Pepsi Cola strikes down on you like a hawk. And if you are marketing a custom-styled motorcycle, you'd better make sure it doesn't sound like Harley Davidson's trade mark protected sound, or they will kick your ass.

You are completely free to market blue colored custom-styled motorcycles however, at least you will be safe from Pepsi company. And I guess you could (could you? ;)) market a cola-beverage that sounds like a Harley Davidson, and be safe from that MC company. See my point?

Trade marks must be put in a carefully defined context, and are only valid in that context. I don't remember what products the Amiga trade mark is valid for, only that some of them (yes there are several, at least more than one) was somewhat aging, like "computer diskettes" or something like that. There is no "fair use" in using the color blue in marketing cola-beverages, and there is no "fair use" in using the text mark "Amiga" in marketing products covering areas protected by Amiga Inc's registered trade mark.

I see no grey-zones whatsoever here...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 05:24:13 PM
I think it's interesting to see the reaction in some forums that this has caused. Wow! :)

But I have a difficult time understanding the upset (to say the least) feelings. I mean, this does in no way have anything to do with Hyperion, A-EON or anyone else some people holds so dear. Those parties can go on with their plans just as before. Nothing has changed. This doesn't concern them, their license to use the trade mark in the way the deal with Amiga Inc stipulates are still there AFAIK.

What it seems to do, is shaking some people up a bit. I'm talking of the people who always resented to crap like "but it's not the real!", the people who never looked at the actual products, but only the trade mark slapped on it.

Now, when something just as "real" is about to be released (because the Commodore Amiga's will be *exactly* as "real thing" as A-EON's stuff, no difference whatsoever), those people has to rethink their stance!

Maybe they will realize that brands aren't that important after all? Maybe they start to consider and compare the actual merits of various products instead?

It looks like this eye-opener is painful to some, but opening your eyes is often a good thing.

Kind of difficult to see otherwise! ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ssolie on September 02, 2010, 05:32:15 PM
Quote from: BigBenAussie;577281
@mongo
You know.....dragging in family members is NOT cool.

Be prepared for even worse as they now systematically pick you and your private life apart. It is even more fun when they mock any deaths in your family (see moobunny). Anything you say or do will now be recorded and thrown back in your face at every opportunity as well. And don't be surprised if somebody tries to sabotage any business dealings you had in mind.

Enjoy your new trademark license. ;)

P.S. I wish I was kidding but history tends to repeat itself.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Argo on September 02, 2010, 05:58:57 PM
Has anyone confirmed if any legal paperwork has been filed?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: hooligan on September 02, 2010, 06:00:28 PM
Quote from: ssolie;577351
(see moobunny)


That site is still alive... and someone is actually reading it?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 02, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
Quote from: Argo;577356
Has anyone confirmed if any legal paperwork has been filed?

It's already been confirmed that Commodore USA, LLC is a legitimate Florida corporation. Confirming the Commodore B.V. and Amiga Inc. argeement may take a little longer.

But while would anyone question that part of the operation? The question is, is it are they really going to sell the product and when will they be ready to move forward?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 02, 2010, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: Iggy;577359
The question is, is it are they really going to sell the product and when will they be ready to move forward?


Selling the product is the easy part, since it already exists! Anyone on this forum could buy and resell an already existing computer after adding a sticker to it.

The only product in question is the custom C64 breadbin shaped machine, which would require new cases to be manufactured.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 02, 2010, 06:24:03 PM
Quote from: ssolie;577351
It is even more fun when they mock any deaths in your family (see moobunny).


That was a lie when you said it on AW.net and it's a lie now.

Whilst moobunny regulars didn't break down with crocodile tears regarding the death of mcbill's niece? We stopped far short of mockery.

@Hooligan

Yes, we're still there.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 02, 2010, 06:28:50 PM
Quote from: Iggy;577359
It's already been confirmed that Commodore USA, LLC is a legitimate Florida corporation. Confirming the Commodore B.V. and Amiga Inc. argeement may take a little longer.
 
But while would anyone question that part of the operation? The question is, is it are they really going to sell the product and when will they be ready to move forward?

I probably wouldn't buy a product I thought was greymarket or counterfit. Oh and it is an LLC, not corporation ;-)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 06:34:27 PM
Quote from: Argo;577356
Has anyone confirmed if any legal paperwork has been filed?


It's a contract between two entities, what do you feel needs to be "filed", and where?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 02, 2010, 07:09:38 PM
Quote from: tone007;577360
Selling the product is the easy part, since it already exists! Anyone on this forum could buy and resell an already existing computer after adding a sticker to it.

The only product in question is the custom C64 breadbin shaped machine, which would require new cases to be manufactured.


That is really the crux of it.

Some mom and pop PC retailer decided to run their business just like most mom and pop PC retailers, but saw an opportunity to appeal to a niche market by selling them in cases, first, that looked reminiscent of Amigas, with a commodore sticker slapped on it.  Then announced plans to make replica cases and sell PCs in those.  For those that want their PCs to look like that, great.  For those that don't, who cares what some mom and pop PC shop does?

Yes, you can buy a used Amiga cheaper.  So what?  Lots of us buy new thing that we could buy cheaper used.

Yes, this isn't the original hardware.  So what?  Many of us run emulated Amigas.

Yes, you could get the same equipment in a case that doesn't look like an Amiga/C64.  So what?  Lots of cases are purchased strictly for their looks.

Yes, they used a copyrighted image without permission.  So what?  So have the rest of us, and it is actually quite common in mom and pop shops.  It this really offends you, don't buy from them.

Yes, they are using a trademark they didn't create.  So what?  Either they have a legal right to it or they don't.  They are not fooling anyone, or even trying to fool anyone about what the actual product is.

I don't get all the hate that is heaped on this guy.  If you like the product he sells, buy it.  If you don't, don't.  I run emulation, so I like what he is presenting.  He isn't promising to release a new architecture with a new OS that is going to be better than anything currently on the market.  He isn't promising a revolution.  He is promising (promise may even be too strong of a word) stock PCs with a Commodore logo on it, and a couple of replica cases with standard PC hardware.

The Amiga community has had a lot of pie in the sky promises that never panned out.  Some that really couldn't pan out.  That doesn't seem to be what is happening here.  A couple of replica cases with PCs inside, and full AROS driver support is a lot less ambitious than many of the products we have actually seen released.

Certainly the MiniMig was a more complex project than a replica case.  Certainly AROS as a whole was a lot more complex than just the few drivers necessary to make a particular machine AROS compatible.  Certainly MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 are more complex than replica cases.  Even the Indivision and Catweasle are more complex than this.

There is nothing that has been presented so far that indicates that this modest project is not real.  So, lets just not send prepayments and wait and see.  If the machines don't show up, no problem.  We still have our money.  If they do, great!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 02, 2010, 07:45:57 PM
..and if they don't show up or you don't feel like waiting, you can always find something similar and cheaper on eBay, if you're stuck on the computer-in-a-keyboard style.

(usually cheaper than these examples, maybe he's buying them all up? ;))

http://cgi.ebay.com/ZPCGX31SB-Cybernet-ZPC-GX31-All-in-One-PC-Inside-/220650077374?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item335fc4fcbe

http://cgi.ebay.com/Elite-4-Cybernet-Zero-Footprint-PC-80G-H-D-1-GIG-Memory-/260654346605?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item3cb035b16d

I got one of the second ones for $20, runs Ubuntu 10.04 just fine, and I did put an Amiga sticker on it.  Doesn't get nearly as much use as my netbooks or laptops, though.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 07:52:00 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577364
Quote from: Argo;577356
Has anyone confirmed if any legal paperwork has been filed?


It's a contract between two entities, what do you feel needs to be "filed", and where?


What I was implying, is that you seem to believe that someone would file a trade mark somewhere. But why would that be necessary?

Take Hyperion's settlement with Amiga Inc for example; "AmigaOS" is not a trade mark in its own, AFAIK. I'd say there is *only one mark*, and that is "Amiga". It is owned by Amiga Inc, and no-one else.

What Hyperion seems to have, is *merely an agreement* stipulating that "OK, we (Amiga Inc) will not sue you if you use our Amiga mark in the following ways 'AmigaOS', 'Amiga OS', 'AmigaONE', 'Amiga ONE', when marketing your OS4".

AFAIK, no-one would need to file anything anywhere in order to make such an agreement, and I think Commodore has a similar deal!

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 02, 2010, 07:55:22 PM
Quote from: tone007;577372
I got one of the second ones for $20, runs Ubuntu 10.04 just fine, and I did put an Amiga sticker on it.


... but ... but ... it won't be TEH REEL!!1!

It's all about *official* trade mark stickers, haven't you learned anything about *what really matters* during the last decade, haven't you been paying attention?

;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 02, 2010, 07:56:58 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577374
... but ... but ... it won't be TEH REEL!!1!


Actually, the sticker I used was an Amiga 2000 case sticker, I cut it down to say Amiga 200.

Mine is REELER!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Colin_Camper on September 02, 2010, 07:58:56 PM
Quote from: dammy;577172
@ rebraist

How do you figure that?  Beta Board (mobo/cpu/ram) is 1,150 GBP.  If you add in case, gfx card, hd, dvd, and whatever else a end user wants plus UK's new 20% VAT, your probably looking at least 1,700 GBP.


Quite! And now let's put this in context. The UK is likely heading for the second dip recession.

I bought a BMW 735 on Ebay 2 years ago.

It has leather throughout, electric seats,
It's more comfy than my living room, it has an electric sunroof.
The Hi-fi is the best sounding system I have ever owned.
Everything on it works as expected. Apart from servicing I haven't spent any more money on it.
When I floor it, I hear Captain Picard say 'Engage' and the world goes streaky. Doing 100MpH on autocruise feels like 30Mph in my old Ford.

I paid £1100 for it.

Would I swap it for a hobby motherboard with a deadend processor architecture?

No M'Lud!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ajlwalker on September 02, 2010, 08:46:40 PM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;577316
If I had the money for an x1000, I'd stuff it all into a cannon and fire it off into the atmosphere.
If you want to do something useful with the money buy an FPGA arcade, a PC and put the rest into an AROS bounty for porting the kickstart and whatever graphics card you use.


I don't want an FPGA Arcade.  I've got two PCs (desktop and laptop) and they are uninspiring.  Maybe I will throw a few £ at the AROS bounties.

No, I think I'll stick to my backup, and go for the sam460.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 02, 2010, 09:04:03 PM
Quote from: ajlwalker;577385
I don't want an FPGA Arcade.  I've got two PCs (desktop and laptop) and they are uninspiring.  Maybe I will throw a few £ at the AROS bounties.

No, I think I'll stick to my backup, and go for the sam460.


That should leave you enough for a Natami ;)

If you would like an Amiga sticker for it maybe I could cut you one with my vinyl cutter, as an artistic project and at no profit 'cause I wouldn't be  breaking the law then ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 02, 2010, 09:18:57 PM
@takemehomegrandma

I see what you are saying regarding the Trademark laws, it's interesting to see how much more specific US law is on this compared with UK law, the use of SM (service mark) is something I have never seen in the UK for example. Copyright seems to be more specific too, as in if you don't mark your work you could find yourself without any rights over it. In the UK an artists work has implied copyright no matter if it's marked or not. All he has to do is prove the original is his (or hers of course). It amazes me how any country can have such detail in the legal system, giving lawyers years of work and yet still expect citizens to know the law.

It still doesn't change the fact that a PC with an Amiga sticker is just a PC however. If AInc had any reals brains they would have offered the trademarks to the Natami team. instead.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 02, 2010, 09:42:43 PM
Natami has no money, no hope of generating a profit and violates AI's promise to avoid AOS based commuters.


Quote from: Tripitaka;577389
@takemehomegrandma

I see what you are saying regarding the Trademark laws, it's interesting to see how much more specific US law is on this compared with UK law, the use of SM (service mark) is something I have never seen in the UK for example. Copyright seems to be more specific too, as in if you don't mark your work you could find yourself without any rights over it. In the UK an artists work has implied copyright no matter if it's marked or not. All he has to do is prove the original is his (or hers of course). It amazes me how any country can have such detail in the legal system, giving lawyers years of work and yet still expect citizens to know the law.

It still doesn't change the fact that a PC with an Amiga sticker is just a PC however. If AInc had any reals brains they would have offered the trademarks to the Natami team. instead.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Argo on September 02, 2010, 09:49:17 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577373
What I was implying, is that you seem to believe that someone would file a trade mark somewhere. But why would that be necessary?

Take Hyperion's settlement with Amiga Inc for example; "AmigaOS" is not a trade mark in its own, AFAIK. I'd say there is *only one mark*, and that is "Amiga". It is owned by Amiga Inc, and no-one else.

What Hyperion seems to have, is *merely an agreement* stipulating that "OK, we (Amiga Inc) will not sue you if you use our Amiga mark in the following ways 'AmigaOS', 'Amiga OS', 'AmigaONE', 'Amiga ONE', when marketing your OS4".

AFAIK, no-one would need to file anything anywhere in order to make such an agreement, and I think Commodore has a similar deal!

:)


Well, I kinda got the impression that Hyperion was suing someone, most likely Amiga, Inc.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 02, 2010, 09:53:44 PM
Avoiding "AOS based commuters"? Yeah, they drive poorly (hey wasn't that an old BMW that just blew by)?

Now if Amiga Inc. is allowed to sell its IP to a seller of non-AOS computers (and its beginning to look that way), we'll just have to deal with it.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: takemehomegrandma on September 03, 2010, 12:35:56 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577389
@takemehomegrandma

It still doesn't change the fact that a PC with an Amiga sticker is just a PC however.


...as was the Teron, Pegasos and the "X1000" computers; desktop oriented motherboards with the bog standard PC controllers, slots, connectors and other interfaces. The only difference was that those were based around PPC instead of x86, otherwise it's exactly the same PC stuff.

Quote
If AInc had any reals brains they would have offered the trademarks to the Natami team. instead.


Who say they can't? As we just have seen, one does not exclude one other! :)

Has the Natami team even asked?

Maybe Commodore could make an "AIO" computer out of the Natami when it's finished? That would be super cool! A Commodore Amiga with real but updated Amiga style HW, in a A1200 styled case! :)

I'd buy one!

:)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 03, 2010, 12:42:32 AM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577427
...as was the Teron, Pegasos and the "X1000" computers; desktop oriented motherboards with the bog standard PC controllers, slots, connectors and other interfaces. The only difference was that those were based around PPC instead of x86, otherwise it's exactly the same PC stuff.


You forgot the other (major, important) difference, those systems run OSes the standard x86 PCs cannot.  That PPC "dongle" unfortunately can't be stuck on your Dell.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 03, 2010, 01:12:14 AM
Quote from: tone007;577430
You forgot the other (major, important) difference, those systems run OSes the standard x86 PCs cannot.  That PPC "dongle" unfortunately can't be stuck on your Dell.


......One hundred and eighty!  As they say in darts. Or hole in one. Or goal. Or "you hit the nail on the head". Or, well you get the idea, whatever way you put it your damn right.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 03, 2010, 01:23:03 AM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577427

Who say they can't? As we just have seen, one does not exclude one other! :)

Has the Natami team even asked?

Maybe Commodore could make an "AIO" computer out of the Natami when it's finished? That would be super cool! A Commodore Amiga with real but updated Amiga style HW, in a A1200 styled case! :)

I'd buy one!

:)


Who says they can't? well I didn't, in fact I think that would have been the smartest move, that was my point. The fact that you'd buy one goes to show that at least for one customer (you) it would have been the smartest move, they would have at least one sale. I intend to buy a Natami too, and an Amiga sticker on it certainly would not put me off. An Amiga labelled machine not running an Amiga OS however, they can keep that. I know it could run AROS or UAE but as I've said before, so can any other x86 PC.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 03, 2010, 01:26:16 AM
Quote from: tone007;577430
You forgot the other (major, important) difference, those systems run OSes the standard x86 PCs cannot.  That PPC "dongle" unfortunately can't be stuck on your Dell.

The PPC issue didn't affect Apple when it changed platforms. Neither of the makers of these PPC OS' has written off the idea of doing an X86 version.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a PC from Micheal Dell and we must have a different definition of "dongle". If you mean the PPC processor, there are dozens of PPC boards that plug into X86 PCs.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 03, 2010, 01:41:18 AM
Quote from: Iggy;577438
The PPC issue didn't affect Apple when it changed platforms. Neither of the makers of these PPC OS' has written off the idea of doing an X86 version.

Hi, we're talking about Amiga OSes here.  OS4 and MorphOS only run on PPC.  Calling the PPC a dongle is more of a joke than anything.  Bottom line, Amiga OS4 and MorphOS currently only run on particular hardware, which you'll need if you want to run those OSes.

..and if you think the PPC issue didn't affect Apple when they changed platforms, ask them how much they spent on development to get OS X on x86.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 03, 2010, 02:19:22 AM
Oh, no doubt there'd be a lot of work moving from a RISC PPC processor to a CISC X86 processor.
But there's nothing that one type of processor can do that can't be rewritten for another, completely different processor.
One of the real challenges presented by the move to X86 platforms would be all the additional chipsets and drivers need to support the wider variety of hardware.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 03, 2010, 02:26:08 AM
Quote from: tone007;577441

..and if you think the PPC issue didn't affect Apple when they changed platforms, ask them how much they spent on development to get OS X on x86.


Lot's, I think you will find the total cost was in the hundreds of millions (at this point I'm half expecting Bloodline to give us an exact figure).
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 03, 2010, 02:29:40 AM
Quote from: Iggy;577448
Oh, no doubt there'd be a lot of work moving from a RISC PPC processor to a CISC X86 processor.
But there's nothing that one type of processor can do that can't be rewritten for another, completely different processor.
One of the real challenges presented by the move to X86 platforms would be all the additional chipsets and drivers need to support the wider variety of hardware.


Thank you for these platitudes.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 03, 2010, 02:49:01 AM
Quote from: tone007;577454
Thank you for these platitudes.

Actually, I'm comfortably above having to deal with polite platitudes. I've got nothing personally invested in this. I'm a MorphOS user. I don't use classic or new generation Amiga hardware.  If the MorphOS developers decided to move to X86, I'd probably follow.

But I'm not hung up on the name Amiga. Its just a name. Apparently one you can buy.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 04, 2010, 05:42:14 PM
Quote from: Belial6;577370
That is really the crux of it.

Some mom and pop PC retailer decided to run their business just like most mom and pop PC retailers, but saw an opportunity to appeal to a niche market by selling them in cases, first, that looked reminiscent of Amigas, with a commodore sticker slapped on it.  Then announced plans to make replica cases and sell PCs in those.  For those that want their PCs to look like that, great.  For those that don't, who cares what some mom and pop PC shop does?

Yes, you can buy a used Amiga cheaper.  So what?  Lots of us buy new thing that we could buy cheaper used.

Yes, this isn't the original hardware.  So what?  Many of us run emulated Amigas.

Yes, you could get the same equipment in a case that doesn't look like an Amiga/C64.  So what?  Lots of cases are purchased strictly for their looks.

Yes, they used a copyrighted image without permission.  So what?  So have the rest of us, and it is actually quite common in mom and pop shops.  It this really offends you, don't buy from them.

Yes, they are using a trademark they didn't create.  So what?  Either they have a legal right to it or they don't.  They are not fooling anyone, or even trying to fool anyone about what the actual product is.

I don't get all the hate that is heaped on this guy.  If you like the product he sells, buy it.  If you don't, don't.  I run emulation, so I like what he is presenting.  He isn't promising to release a new architecture with a new OS that is going to be better than anything currently on the market.  He isn't promising a revolution.  He is promising (promise may even be too strong of a word) stock PCs with a Commodore logo on it, and a couple of replica cases with standard PC hardware.

The Amiga community has had a lot of pie in the sky promises that never panned out.  Some that really couldn't pan out.  That doesn't seem to be what is happening here.  A couple of replica cases with PCs inside, and full AROS driver support is a lot less ambitious than many of the products we have actually seen released.

Certainly the MiniMig was a more complex project than a replica case.  Certainly AROS as a whole was a lot more complex than just the few drivers necessary to make a particular machine AROS compatible.  Certainly MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 are more complex than replica cases.  Even the Indivision and Catweasle are more complex than this.

There is nothing that has been presented so far that indicates that this modest project is not real.  So, lets just not send prepayments and wait and see.  If the machines don't show up, no problem.  We still have our money.  If they do, great!


1. Running a legitimate respectful business and using copyrighted material without permission is mutually exclusive.

2. The Commodore stickers were a bit of a farce legally speaking.

3. Those machines being sold are about 40% cheaper when purchased from other outlets.

4. Is this Amiga deal even 'real' and confirmed in a legal capacity by Bill McEwan who has fallen off the face of the earth ??

These and many other issues will never be answered by B S Altman, 'CEO' of CommodoreUSA*

*not legally linked to any Amiga or Commodore IP owning companies despite the name.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 04, 2010, 05:49:02 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;577373
What I was implying, is that you seem to believe that someone would file a trade mark somewhere. But why would that be necessary?

Take Hyperion's settlement with Amiga Inc for example; "AmigaOS" is not a trade mark in its own, AFAIK. I'd say there is *only one mark*, and that is "Amiga". It is owned by Amiga Inc, and no-one else.

What Hyperion seems to have, is *merely an agreement* stipulating that "OK, we (Amiga Inc) will not sue you if you use our Amiga mark in the following ways 'AmigaOS', 'Amiga OS', 'AmigaONE', 'Amiga ONE', when marketing your OS4".

AFAIK, no-one would need to file anything anywhere in order to make such an agreement, and I think Commodore has a similar deal!

:)


Legally the business scope of Hyperion, and hence those actions that are permissible by Amiga Inc, are actually laid down officially in the outcome of the Amiga Inc vs Hyperion court case settlement.

Of course you need proof for permission to sell shoddy no-brand Chinese PCs with Amiga/Commodore logos, and a pathetic markup via some ham-fisted website, there has to be something somewhere legally speaking. Whether that agreement is ever made public is up to B S Altman.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 04, 2010, 06:02:07 PM
Quote from: tone007;577360
Selling the product is the easy part, since it already exists! Anyone on this forum could buy and resell an already existing computer after adding a sticker to it.

The only product in question is the custom C64 breadbin shaped machine, which would require new cases to be manufactured.


Monkey see monkey do as they say ;)

You mean the stock Wikimedia/Wikicommons image of a C64 on his website and the picture of somebody else's modified C64 with the DVD/CD drive door open on the left side? Yeah that inspires confidence :)

Ditto the fantasy render of a future possibility of some Amiga model imagined in the 90s produced by a stranger (who's signature and logo is removed from the stolen picture).

If you want to pay 100+ bucks extra for a low rent non-brand PC with a sticky label saying 'Commodore' or 'Amiga' on it and running an OS you can download for free.....then be my guest people :)

IF the guy actually had some custom cases designed and built for sale to modders, with an option of purchasing pre-built machines too like kit-car companies in the automotive industry I suppose, then I might have more respect for the asswipe.

I'm off to register a website with the name Commodore in it, nick some swish graphics from other websites, and proclaim the C64 is still alive (after printing some photoglossy labels I designed and sticking them on some piece of crap budget PCs direct from a Chinese warehouse now :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 04, 2010, 06:08:27 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;577745
1. Running a legitimate respectful business and using copyrighted material without permission is mutually exclusive.


Some people keep hammering on this.  All I can say is, good luck finding companies that you consider legitimate and respectful.

Do you refuse to with these non-legitimate respectful businesses?  Avoiding them would be like avoiding businesses that use gasoline.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: kolla on September 04, 2010, 06:24:46 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577450
Lot's, I think you will find the total cost was in the hundreds of millions (at this point I'm half expecting Bloodline to give us an exact figure).

It was much more work for them to port NeXTStep to PowerPC in the first place, and that did take a few years. Moving OSX from PowerPC to X86 was not so much work - the central parts of the OS had been running on X86 all along, the trouble was alot more about having all software providers move to X86 as well.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Kronos on September 04, 2010, 06:25:06 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;577748

I'm off to register a website with the name Commodore in it, nick some swish graphics from other websites, and proclaim the C64 is still alive (after printing some photoglossy labels I designed and sticking them on some piece of crap budget PCs direct from a Chinese warehouse now :)


You mean like:
http://www.retrocom.de/Commodore/  ?

O.k. no C= in the domain, but still .....
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: guest5160 on September 04, 2010, 07:37:30 PM
I just found this lurking:

Cybernetman ZPC-GX31

http://www.cybernetman.com/cart/viewProduct.cfm?productId=2
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 04, 2010, 07:54:04 PM
Quote from: Belial6;577749
Some people keep hammering on this. All I can say is, good luck finding companies that you consider legitimate and respectful.


There are plenty of companies out there that respect copyright. Of those that don't, most have the good grace (not to mention sense of self preservation) to honour a licence when they're caught out.

To do otherwise is inviting a life altering lawsuit.

At the very least, altering the work in question to hide or disguise it's creator goes far beyond the story given out of "oh well if they copyright holder contacts us" crap.

Quote from: Belial6;577749

Do you refuse to with these non-legitimate respectful businesses?


Where at all possible I know I do. Which is why I don't buy Coca Cola (http://killercoke.org/), Nestlé (http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html) or Kraft (the new owners of Cadburys) (http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/is_hersheys_secret_ingredient_child_slavery).
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: amigadave on September 04, 2010, 09:28:37 PM
Quote from: Iggy;577460
Actually, I'm comfortably above having to deal with polite platitudes. I've got nothing personally invested in this. I'm a MorphOS user. I don't use classic or new generation Amiga hardware.  If the MorphOS developers decided to move to X86, I'd probably follow.

But I'm not hung up on the name Amiga. Its just a name. Apparently one you can buy.


I can put the name Amiga on any of my computers running MorphOS2.5 in any shape, way or form and as long as I don't try selling multiple computers with the intent to defraud the buyer into thinking that they are actually "Amiga" manufactured, or officially sanctioned by the owner of the Amiga copyrighted name, and there isn't anything anyone could do about it.

Amiga computers (for me anyway) stopped being manufactured with the last few A4000T's that QuickPak assembled (unless some A1200's were made after that time).  The many different forms of AmigaOne's are different and unique in their own way, but I don't consider them Amiga computers any more or less than a PC running AROS, or WinUAE, or a Mac, or Pegasos running MorphOS.

If AmigaOne and Sam owners want to believe that their computers are "Real Amiga's", that is okay with me too, I just don't agree with them and don't care enough to argue about it.

It is amazing and sort of sad that there has been so much fuss made over what Commodore USA and Amiga Inc. have done.  I doubt it will make any difference in actual sales of any AmigaOS4.x products now or in the future.  If anything, it might actually draw some attention to the Amiga community from people that have left it and that might lead to future sales of AmigaOS4.x and the computers that it runs on.

Be calm Navi', be calm.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 04, 2010, 10:14:36 PM
Quote from: the_leander;577760

Where at all possible I know I do.


How about Microsoft?  Do you use any products from Microsoft?  Or Apple?  They are both famous for IP infringement.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 04, 2010, 11:31:28 PM
Quote from: Belial6;577766
How about Microsoft?  Do you use any products from Microsoft?  Or Apple?  They are both famous for IP infringement.


As I said, where possible. It is easier to avoid Apple than it is Microsoft however.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 05, 2010, 01:03:43 AM
Quote from: the_leander;577760

Where at all possible I know I do. Which is why I don't buy Coca Cola (http://killercoke.org/), Nestlé (http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html) or Kraft (the new owners of Cadburys) (http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/is_hersheys_secret_ingredient_child_slavery).


I could give you a whole lot more to add to that list (and you'd probably end up as a vegetarian in the process) but kudos from me on a damn fine start.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 05, 2010, 01:08:03 AM
Quote from: kolla;577751
It was much more work for them to port NeXTStep to PowerPC in the first place, and that did take a few years. Moving OSX from PowerPC to X86 was not so much work - the central parts of the OS had been running on X86 all along, the trouble was alot more about having all software providers move to X86 as well.


Fair comment. It was probably the last bit of this that cost the most, I've tried to find the exact figures but sadly I failed.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: SysAdmin on September 05, 2010, 01:58:46 AM
Quote from: the_leander;577760
There are plenty of companies out there that respect copyright. Of those that don't, most have the good grace (not to mention sense of self preservation) to honour a licence when they're caught out.

To do otherwise is inviting a life altering lawsuit.

At the very least, altering the work in question to hide or disguise it's creator goes far beyond the story given out of "oh well if they copyright holder contacts us" crap.



Where at all possible I know I do. Which is why I don't buy Coca Cola (http://killercoke.org/), Nestlé (http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html) or Kraft (the new owners of Cadburys) (http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/is_hersheys_secret_ingredient_child_slavery).


Don't forget McDonald's, Pillsbury and Kebblers.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 05, 2010, 04:09:30 AM
Apple is harder for me to avoid, we've got Mac in every room, plus iPods, iPads and iPhones plus a Mac Mini hooked to the TV, not to mention the fact that I run a bunch of Mac servers at work and support a Uni departmentntha is 80% Mac.  

Quote from: the_leander;577777
As I said, where possible. It is easier to avoid Apple than it is Microsoft however.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 05, 2010, 11:47:49 PM
Quote from: Belial6;577749
Some people keep hammering on this.  All I can say is, good luck finding companies that you consider legitimate and respectful.

Do you refuse to with these non-legitimate respectful businesses?  Avoiding them would be like avoiding businesses that use gasoline.


In the context of the corporate world..

Legitimate = bonafide business with original IP, or fully licensed IP, for their products/services sold.

Respectful = obeying the various laws governing commerce.

That doesn't mean they are ethical or tree hugging UNICEF protagonists in the real world, just straightforward commercial entities.

I suspect BS Altman gets away with some things because the IP owners involved in some cases do not have the sort of money that Microsoft et al have to throw at lawyers and courtroom sessions basically. Doesn't mean it is right commercially or 100% legal.

And in a way, like most people, I purchase products based on the product sold not the company mantra evangelising some mission statement :)

Like I said if he came out with a C64C style case or an Amiga 3000 style case that you can drop in a Mini ITX board then fine, but he hasn't and he won't. As stated many times I don't believe the custom chips>CPU brute force situation of Amiga 1000 in 1985 will ever repeat itself in the computer world though so I don't expect anyone to come up with a true spiritual successor to the Amiga 1000. If anything that could only have happened on launch day for the Xbox 360 motherboard if it was licensed out to some company to build a home computer with and it had a superior OS designed for it than Windows and sold for half the cost of an identical PC in 2006 which could play games at DirectX 10 levels of detail @ 1080p just like an actual Xbox 360 did for 200 bucks here in the UK. But he is still just a furniture importer running some very shady business cashing in on the vintage cachet of 'Commodore' and 'Amiga' to me, and this will not change in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 05, 2010, 11:55:34 PM
Quote from: persia;577801
Apple is harder for me to avoid, we've got Mac in every room, plus iPods, iPads and iPhones plus a Mac Mini hooked to the TV, not to mention the fact that I run a bunch of Mac servers at work and support a Uni departmentntha is 80% Mac.  



Yes but that is mostly all work related, and what you choose to use for computing at home is your choice. Also you can even buy iPhone rip-offs from China that cost about 50 bucks on ebay, ditto for iPod touch rip-offs too. For 15% of the cost you get 90% of the functionality = WIN!

I use Windows, but then not for any love of Microsoft, it's for convenience for me. That doesn't mean I automatically rushed out and bought Vista or 7 though, neither of those 'upgrades' adds anything significant to XP for home users in general and I have a PS3 AND 360 for gaming needs anyway so who cares if it is DX10 or DX11. I'd rather have an extra 16gb free on my hard drive to use for storing nice things like movies and music not CAB/DLL files ;)

Ditto as much as I like Google as a company, their Chrome operating System has a joke of a user interface (a whole OS GUI based on the Chrome browser UI!) so count me out on that one too.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 06, 2010, 10:57:44 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;577784
I could give you a whole lot more to add to that list (and you'd probably end up as a vegetarian in the process) but kudos from me on a damn fine start.


Ta, tbh I don't tend to buy much meat, though when I do I try to get locally produced stuff. And the list is quite a bit longer than that, it's just I figured stick to the big ones :)

C= actions whilst illegal and immoral, don't really rate highly, but, because what they're offering is what I would consider to be a luxury (or very niche) item, I find it trivially easy to dismiss them for it.

Quote from: Transition;577788
Don't forget McDonald's, Pillsbury and Kebblers.


Even if McDonald's were the most ethical company on earth I wouldn't eat there - their food is vile, tasteless pap. In the UK they don't even offer a decent management training scheme as they do in the US.

Never heard of the other two.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 06, 2010, 11:57:51 PM
So, basically, you feel good about not buying things from companies that you wouldn't do business with anyway.  If that is your thing, that's fine.  It doesn't change the fact that all of the people hammering away at CUSA for being this huge villain for doing what is down right common, is ridiculous, and 99% of the time hypocritical.

Is the posting of the picture illegal?  About as illegal as a restaurant staff singing 'Happy Birthday' to a patron.  Is it immoral?  Again, about as immoral as a restaurant staff singing 'Happy Birthday' to a patron.

Oh, and I don't blame you for not eating at McDonalds in the UK.  While I didn't venture much outside of London, I was amazed at how bad McDonalds was there.  Here in the US, McDonalds make delicious burgers.  Of course pretty much all of the food in London was terrible, so it isn't much saying that the McDonalds there was bad.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 07, 2010, 12:03:17 AM
Quote from: Belial6;578124
So, basically, you feel good about not buying things from companies that you wouldn't do business with anyway.


I didn't say that, way to miss the point.

Quote from: Belial6;578124

 If that is your thing, that's fine.  It doesn't change the fact that all of the people hammering away at CUSA for being this huge villain for doing what is down right common, is ridiculous, and 99% of the time hypocritical.


Oh you're bringing figures into this, presumably you've some evidence to back up not only the number but the claim of hypocrisy..

Quote from: Belial6;578124

Is the posting of the picture illegal?  


Copyright infringement.

That they went a stage further and actually altered the picture only compounds the issue.

Quote from: Belial6;578124

About as illegal as a restaurant staff singing 'Happy Birthday' to a patron.  Is it immoral?  Again, about as immoral as a restaurant staff singing 'Happy Birthday' to a patron.


Strawman.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Orkin on September 07, 2010, 01:08:18 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578126
Strawman.
It seems to me that he brought up a fairly reasonable comparison, since both are copyright violations. Someone owns the rights to Happy Birthday, and if singing Happy Birthday contributes to the atmosphere that people are seeking in that establishment, it can be argued that they are benefiting from someone else's work without paying for it... much like someone taking a picture from the web and posting it on their site in an effort to make money.

Honestly, I'm against copyright protection in both areas. Happy Birthday is so commonly sung, it shouldn't be an issue, since the owners of the copyright know it's in the public domain now due to the nature of the song. Likewise, if you don't want someone else to post your image somewhere else, possibly modified, don't post it to the World Wide Web -- it's the antithesis of a private medium.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 07, 2010, 01:17:12 AM
Quote from: Orkin;578131

Honestly, I'm against copyright protection in both areas.


Fine.

Quote from: Orkin;578131
Happy Birthday is so commonly sung, it shouldn't be an issue, since the owners of the copyright know it's in the public domain now due to the nature of the song.


Except it isn't. Now whether you like it or not, that's the law. Don't like it? Get the law changed.

Quote from: Orkin;578131

Likewise, if you don't want someone else to post your image somewhere else, possibly modified, don't post it to the World Wide Web -- it's the antithesis of a private medium.


Heh, fortunately content creators do have legal levers they can pull when freetards start taking liberties.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 07, 2010, 03:00:46 AM
Well copyright is kind of weird, basically in the EU "Happy Birthday" is copyrighted whilst in Australia and other countries that simply recognise the Berne Convention without additions it isn't.  In other words all material that is written by a group and is over 50 years old or is 50 years beyond the death of the author is out of copyright.

This difference is one of the reason's Australia's national anthem is the dirge "Advance AUstralia Fair" rather than "Waltzing Matilda."  Waltzing Matilda is out of copyright in Australia, but not in the EU or (I believe) in the US, so it would be weird to have to get copyright permission to use your own national anthem overseas...

Quote from: Belial6;578124
So, basically, you feel good about not buying things from companies that you wouldn't do business with anyway.  If that is your thing, that's fine.  It doesn't change the fact that all of the people hammering away at CUSA for being this huge villain for doing what is down right common, is ridiculous, and 99% of the time hypocritical.

Is the posting of the picture illegal?  About as illegal as a restaurant staff singing 'Happy Birthday' to a patron.  Is it immoral?  Again, about as immoral as a restaurant staff singing 'Happy Birthday' to a patron.

Oh, and I don't blame you for not eating at McDonalds in the UK.  While I didn't venture much outside of London, I was amazed at how bad McDonalds was there.  Here in the US, McDonalds make delicious burgers.  Of course pretty much all of the food in London was terrible, so it isn't much saying that the McDonalds there was bad.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: fishy_fiz on September 07, 2010, 04:11:28 AM
Each to thier own, but personally I find this whole thing ridiculous. Half of the entire "amiga" world seems to have lost the plot on the back of someone using images on a badly designed website.... if the company is going to last it will learn from its mistakes, if it's not going to last, then what does it matter? The licensing of "Amiga" appears to be as valid as the licensing of "AmigaOS", just different entities and goals, so Im curious as to what has caused the recent insanity? Personally I'm happy to see how things unfold before I dub someone the Devil. Good luck to CommodoreUSA, despite a rocky beginning Im interested to see how they go... I doubt I'll purchase any of thier products, but the Amiga names has been battered to death as far as computer enthusiasts go, so what harm can someone else trying to bring it back to the publics attention do? Amiga has a history of debatatble ethics, regardless of the path/camp. (aros being the possible exception due to it not being a business, but Im sure some people will find something to disagree with in regards to this).
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 09, 2010, 08:18:31 PM
Here's what I got in response to the concerns we've voiced. Some of it's a little harsh, but then so have some of our comments here.

"Here's a blast you can relay to the forum members, please quote exactly:
Commodore USA was not set up as  charity to support the development of AROS. It holds less than nothing of interest or importance to me, or 99.999999% of our intended market. It is a product that I or any other company could not use at all, as it has NO commercial value now, as is. So why are you all so concerned??  
Our support was to help the group move ahead, and be part of a niche hobby group that seemed initially to be  fun. I was wrong. Although some members expressed calm, sane, accurate and positive and open viewpoints, far too many exhibit behavior that is truly reprehensible. What is most amazing is the behavior and comments of the 'Moderators"   UNREAL!! Aros is not a commercial product; it is not even close to a beta functional OS that has any use at this point in it's development. Why some of you oppose the ONLY viable source of support is beyond me. Never has AROS received any promotion or publicity  that comes remotely close to that that was gotten since my intended involvement. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Why some of you find every facet of my life of interest is really sad. Don't you have lives to live?

I'll address some comments in particular. This is business, not nursery school. You know how much was spent and paid for the Commodore and Amiga IP over the last 15 years. Do your homework…we are talking close to 100 million dollars cumulative over all these years and by all the corporate entities that played the game. Price of entry is steep, and so is execution.  Iggy has  tons of more info that for some reason he chose not to share with you all.  

As far as using abandoned artwork, no problem here. Marko Hirv cannot be reached. Period. I tried. No luck. And yes, I did email the company he is at now….again no reply. Find him…I'll deal with him, or anyone else that falls into that category. Ever hear of an Iphone, boys and girls? Guess what…Jobs used it, took it, made it his own…knowing all the time it was the IP of Cisco. Ever hear of iTV, another recent product of the Apple guys. Also, no ownership…take it …use it…and then buy it if you must. Lawyers make a ton and the company gets what it wants, and the IP holder is paid. All good, no? That's just a small example of how business is. I am not saying it is right, just giving you a lesson in reality.

Oh…..ONE MORE THING !!!! All you self righteous self appointed moral compasses out there with the huge mouths and not much else. JUST WHO LICENSED AMIGA.ORG (http://amiga.org/) THE AMIGA TRADEMARK PROPERTY APPEARING ON YOUR BANNER MASTHEAD???   NO ONE!!
Any comments on that flagrant violation of trademark law? I'll be most interested in a reply to that one. Very interested.

So, enjoy your little clubhouse, I wish you well, and am sorry my leap into your little pond caused such an uproar. I never knew such muddy pond could even exist.

Barry"

OK, like I said a bit harsh, but apparently heartfelt. Comments?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 09, 2010, 08:22:41 PM
Just another corpsehumper!
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 09, 2010, 08:34:06 PM
Wow... I like that Barry chap, he really sounds like a most honest, generous and caring fellow. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: CSixx on September 09, 2010, 08:34:51 PM
That response was about as trashy as his website :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 09, 2010, 08:40:13 PM
A post like that and this guy is supposed to be a "ceo" ?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the-topdog on September 09, 2010, 08:56:42 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578528
OK, like I said a bit harsh, but apparently heartfelt. Comments


I don't really blame the guy... instead of constructive comments on his business, he gets nothing but shit from the people he assumed would be happy.

Besides using someone-else's artwork, what did he do wrong?  He is just trying to run a business, not a hobby.

Negativeness breeds negativeness.  Just look at how his first interaction was calm but after the continual barbs and attacks his second response was terse.

The only two things I do not agree with him about is the artwork and his comments about Trademark infringement.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: WolfToTheMoon on September 09, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
Quote from: the-topdog;578539
I don't really blame the guy... instead of constructive comments on his business, he gets nothing but shit from the people he assumed would be happy.

Besides using someone-else's artwork, what did he do wrong?  He is just trying to run a business, not a hobby.

Negativeness breeds negativeness.  Just look at how his first interaction was calm but after the continual barbs and attacks his second response was terse.

The only two things I do not agree with him about is the artwork and his comments about Trademark infringement.

I agree 100%... His money, his rules.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Fats on September 09, 2010, 09:03:59 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578528

OK, like I said a bit harsh, but apparently heartfelt. Comments?


From an AROS dev: stick with iMiCA's and AROS computers !

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: CSixx on September 09, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: the-topdog;578539
I don't really blame the guy...


You don't need to, he will blame himself later for alienating his potential customers...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 09, 2010, 09:29:17 PM
Face it folks, short of inventing some form of time travel and traveling back in time to the heyday of Commodore & the Amiga, taking with you a hit man to take out Medhi Ali & Irving Gould, then what does it matter what or who uses the Commodore name. :flak:

There will never be another Amiga in the true sense of the word, surely all the events since the demise of Commodore & the Amiga has shown us that despite all the promises and wishful thinking of those who have tried and are still trying (in some cases very trying...) to bring about an Amiga rebirth shall as the past has proven amount to absolutely nothing. :(

Be happy with your trusty old Amiga and enjoy it for what it is and always will be, the best home computer ever conceived... :D
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 09, 2010, 09:29:35 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578528
Oh…..ONE MORE THING !!!! All you self righteous self appointed moral compasses out there with the huge mouths and not much else. JUST WHO LICENSED AMIGA.ORG (http://amiga.org/) THE AMIGA TRADEMARK PROPERTY APPEARING ON YOUR BANNER MASTHEAD???   NO ONE!![/I][/FONT][/COLOR]
Any comments on that flagrant violation of trademark law? I'll be most interested in a reply to that one. Very interested.



Amiga.Inc in various guises have specifically approved of the name over the years. Also this website is a news and community site, not a company attempting to sell computers and whilst the banner might include the name Amiga in it, it's full name is "Amiga.org" which has been around for over a decade and is a well established trademark in it's own right.

I also don't like the implied threat that is being made here.

Quote from: Iggy;578528

[/I]OK, like I said a bit harsh, but apparently heartfelt. Comments?
[/FONT][/COLOR]


Barry has delusions of grandeur who is going to get himself into serious trouble if he continues to take the liberties he is with regard copyright.

If he continues to breach copyright and plagiarise the way he is, sooner rather than later he will find himself on the business end of a life altering lawsuit.

Quote from: the-topdog;578539
I don't really blame the guy... instead of constructive comments on his business, he gets nothing but shit from the people he assumed would be happy.

Besides using someone-else's artwork, what did he do wrong?  He is just trying to run a business, not a hobby.


There was also the fact that his descriptions of the re-badged Cybernet was more or less plagiarised from Apple.

Oh and more recently the faux legal letter attempting to silence OSNews.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the-topdog on September 09, 2010, 09:30:42 PM
Quote from: CSixx;578542
You don't need to, he will blame himself later for alienating his potential customers...


If you are always bitching about him and his company, you were never a potential customer to begin with.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jorkany on September 09, 2010, 09:45:14 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578528
OK, like I said a bit harsh, but apparently heartfelt. Comments?

I still think it's hilarious that this guy comes along with a simple premise like "slap the Commodore/Amiga brand on a PC" and in less than a month generates more interest than Hyperion who spent 10 years spinning their wheels trying to "resurrect the Amiga".

I don't necessarily agree with his methods but I think there's a lesson here for any company trying to make a living off the name.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 09, 2010, 09:54:49 PM
Quote from: jorkany;578560

I don't necessarily agree with his methods but I think there's a lesson here for any company trying to make a living off the name.


What, you mean like have a product that you can ship that isn't outrageously priced, that may appeal to more than just your current fanbase?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: haywirepc on September 09, 2010, 10:57:29 PM
This guy running this "company" is a huge asshole.
 
Its nice that he kind of trashed AROS like that, considering he is implying on his website that these rebadged pc's will run an amiga like os....
Since his pc's are x86... What amiga like os is he implying will run on them if not AROS?
 
I think its pretty neat that this guy didn't address the fact that they stole half their website from apple, word for word, and just copied and pasted their own computer names in the text and replaced the computer pictures.
 
If I can't get permission to use someone's artwork, I just don't do it, and I'm an individual, not a company, so his argument about that shows his total lack of ethics, integrity, and probably education.
 
 
There is also the fact that the former fake user bigbenaussie was such a huge supporter of this guy, now he's the "chief technical officer" there.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if this new supporter is not who he appears to be.
 
Steven
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: djrikki on September 09, 2010, 11:48:01 PM
Quote from: Orkin;578131
It seems to me that he brought up a fairly reasonable comparison, since both are copyright violations. Someone owns the rights to Happy Birthday, and if singing Happy Birthday contributes to the atmosphere that people are seeking in that establishment, it can be argued that they are benefiting from someone else's work without paying for it... much like someone taking a picture from the web and posting it on their site in an effort to make money.

Honestly, I'm against copyright protection in both areas. Happy Birthday is so commonly sung, it shouldn't be an issue, since the owners of the copyright know it's in the public domain now due to the nature of the song. Likewise, if you don't want someone else to post your image somewhere else, possibly modified, don't post it to the World Wide Web -- it's the antithesis of a private medium.


Hi, OT, but hmm isn't Happy Birthday coming out of copyright very soon?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 09, 2010, 11:49:55 PM
Quote from: djrikki;578575
Hi, OT, but hmm isn't Happy Birthday coming out of copyright very soon?


Chances are depending on where you live it probably is.

The issue in the US at least is that Disney will continue to push for extensions on copyright to prevent Mickey Mouse falling out of it.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: djrikki on September 09, 2010, 11:55:39 PM
Actually looked on Wiki, in Europe it runs out during December 31, 2016 and further copyright extension will not be granted.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 12:00:35 AM
Quote from: djrikki;578577
Actually looked on Wiki, in Europe it runs out during December 31, 2016 and further copyright extension will not be granted.


I gotta say, if the EU actually develops the balls to say no to a further extension when the time comes, I'll be very surprised.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 10, 2010, 12:05:50 AM
Quote from: the-topdog;578550
If you are always bitching about him and his company, you were never a potential customer to begin with.

I do believe that was one of Altman's points. He really doesn't need to cater to us, we only represent a small part of the potential market.

And if he seems a little peeved, maybe he's got a right to be as he's only trying to get get his company started.

The one thing you've faulted him on (using someone else's artwork w/o permission) could be corrected if the property owner contacted him. I'm sure he'd be willing to work out a deal for the use of the image.

Guys, this isn't any different than selling motorcycles built from third party Harley parts and labeling them Indians.

Besides, if Commodore was still around, what would they be selling? Most likely PCs.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 12:14:01 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578579

The one thing you've faulted him on (using someone else's artwork w/o permission) could be corrected if the property owner contacted him. I'm sure he'd be willing to work out a deal for the use of the image.


The thing that annoyed me wasn't that he took an image that didn't belong to him. It was that he deliberately tried to alter it to disguise its provenance.

Not to mention his plagiarised description of the cybernet.

And whilst we're at it.

His faux legal threats to an established, respected news site - OSNews.

Oh and let us not forget - his implied threat against this site.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 10, 2010, 01:24:37 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578580
The thing that annoyed me wasn't that he took an image that didn't belong to him. It was that he deliberately tried to alter it to disguise its provenance.

Not to mention his plagiarised description of the cybernet.

And whilst we're at it.

His faux legal threats to an established, respected news site - OSNews.

Oh and let us not forget - his implied threat against this site.

I don't see his mention of the unauthorized use of the term Amiga in Amiga.org's name as a threat. Only Bill McEwen could issue a threat based on that (and he's never shown any such inclination). I think the point was that his use was legitimate (and that Amiga.org was using that  trademark without authorization).

As to a faux legal threat, is Hyperion suing anyone? While OSNews can claim absense of malice if they legitimately thought this was the case, there has been no further confirmation on this point.

And you guys seem fixated on that artwork and the Pheonix manual.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 10, 2010, 01:38:13 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578580
Oh and let us not forget - his implied threat against this site.

I stopped paying attention, when did this guy threaten AO? Link please.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 01:49:13 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578583
I don't see his mention of the unauthorized use of the term Amiga in Amiga.org's name as a threat. Only Bill McEwen could issue a threat based on that (and he's never shown any such inclination).I think the point was that his use was legitimate (and that Amiga.org was using that  trademark without authorization).


Firstly, for there to be a potential trademark issue, they would have to be in the same market or at least similar enough that there might be some confusion in the mind of an average persion. Secondly, you have to defend your trademarks, thirdly and finally, Amiga.inc has repeatedly said they have no issue with Amiga.org.

If Trademarks worked they way you and he are implying, the vast majority of Mac rumour sites would have been shut down 10 minutes after they were fired up.

If you don't see the implied threat, well, you might want to re-read

Quote
JUST WHO LICENSED AMIGA.ORG THE AMIGA TRADEMARK PROPERTY APPEARING ON YOUR BANNER MASTHEAD??? NO ONE!!
Any comments on that flagrant violation of trademark law? I'll be most interested in a reply to that one. Very interested.


Given his attempt to squelch free speech using inapplicable Georgia law copied off of a website dealing with chilling effects (yes, ironic) of dicey legal threats, I don't think I'll be taking lessons on Trademarks from this fella.

Quote from: Iggy;578583

As to a faux legal threat, is Hyperion suing anyone?


Nice dodge of the issue, but wrong threat (http://www.osnews.com/story/23756/Commodore_USA_Threatens_OSNews_with_Legal_Action).


Quote from: Iggy;578583

And you guys seem fixated on that artwork and the Pheonix manual.


If it had simply been the case that he'd grabbed the image and put it up, chances are most people wouldn't have given a crap. It was that he altered it to hide who had made the piece as well as other alterations that irritated folk.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 01:50:27 AM
Quote from: redrumloa;578585
I stopped paying attention, when did this guy threaten AO? Link please.


He didn't threaten it outright (apparently even his crassness knows limits)

What he said specifically was:

Quote from: Iggy;578528
Oh…..ONE MORE THING !!!! All you self righteous self appointed moral compasses out there with the huge mouths and not much else. JUST WHO LICENSED AMIGA.ORG (http://amiga.org/) THE AMIGA TRADEMARK PROPERTY APPEARING ON YOUR BANNER MASTHEAD???   NO ONE!! Any comments on that flagrant violation of trademark law? I'll be most interested in a reply to that one. Very interested.


Which is utter balls.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 10, 2010, 01:56:36 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578587
He didn't threaten it outright (apparently even his crassness knows limits)

What he said specifically was:
                Originally Posted by Iggy                (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=578528#post578528)             
             
Quote
Oh…..ONE MORE THING !!!! All you  self righteous self appointed moral compasses out there with the huge  mouths and not much else. JUST WHO LICENSED AMIGA.ORG (http://amiga.org/)  THE AMIGA TRADEMARK PROPERTY APPEARING ON YOUR BANNER MASTHEAD???   NO  ONE!! Any comments on that flagrant violation of trademark law? I'll be  most interested in a reply to that one. Very interested.
[/I]
 Which is utter balls.

Oh dear.. So this guy isn't too bright at all... Good luck alienating your potential customers. Besides, there is a reason Amiga Inc never went after Amiga.org... I will leave it there.

I will reserve further comment atm...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 10, 2010, 02:04:28 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578587
Which is utter balls.

That wasn't really a counter argument.

Since Amiga.org has been here for years (w/o challenge), there's no real threat.

Just a point.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 03:18:21 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578589
That wasn't really a counter argument.

Since Amiga.org has been here for years (w/o challenge), there's no real threat.

Just a point.


Clearly you didn't bother reading the response directed at you.

Your (and his) "point" is utter bunkum.

Even ignoring for the moment that Amiga.inc have stated in the past that there is no issue with AO,  Trademarks do not work that way.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 10, 2010, 03:21:16 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578587
Even ignoring for the moment that Amiga.inc have stated in the past that there is no issue with AO,  Trademarks do not work that way.

AO predates all Amiga companies except Commodore, as in the REAL original commodore. Commodore gave official approval to AO.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: actung_bab on September 10, 2010, 04:38:05 AM
And it is local to me, I know the area well. I am contemplating taking a picture of Commodore USA, LLC's world's headquarters so the world may know.
__________________
http://www.commodorebounty.com

Commodore 128 Tower project blog!



maybe you see osma bin larden there hiding under a rock with mr bill running a lemanade stand with amiga logo cups
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 10, 2010, 04:56:41 AM
So I guess we went from
Quote
Commodore USA's CTO Leo Nigro announced today that their new Amiga branded computers will be fully AROS compatible, and that they will be supporting the AROS open source community in every way possible.

to
 
Quote
Commodore USA was not set up as charity to support the development of AROS. It holds less than nothing of interest or importance to me, or 99.999999% of our intended market. It is a product that I or any other company could not use at all, as it has NO commercial value now, as is. So why are you all so concerned??

So how does Barry define "support in every way possible" ?
 
Or does his dishonesty extend from copyright infringement to lying in press releases and to potential customers ?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 05:01:16 AM
Quote from: runequester;578602

So how does Barry define "support in every way possible" ?


Why, as with every shady businessman - that which directly supports Barry is good, anything that can only be defined vaguely as indirect support or simply not, is bad and is rejected out of hand.

Quote from: runequester;578602

Or does his dishonesty extend from copyright infringement to lying in press releases and to potential customers ?


As if you even have to ask ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: fishy_fiz on September 10, 2010, 05:34:34 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578528
Here's what I got in response to the concerns we've voiced. Some of it's a little harsh, but then so have some of our comments here.

"Here's a blast you can relay to the forum members, please quote exactly:
Commodore USA was not set up as  charity to support the development of AROS. It holds less than nothing of interest or importance to me, or 99.999999% of our intended market. It is a product that I or any other company could not use at all, as it has NO commercial value now, as is. So why are you all so concerned??  
Our support was to help the group move ahead, and be part of a niche hobby group that seemed initially to be  fun. I was wrong. Although some members expressed calm, sane, accurate and positive and open viewpoints, far too many exhibit behavior that is truly reprehensible. What is most amazing is the behavior and comments of the 'Moderators"   UNREAL!! Aros is not a commercial product; it is not even close to a beta functional OS that has any use at this point in it's development. Why some of you oppose the ONLY viable source of support is beyond me. Never has AROS received any promotion or publicity  that comes remotely close to that that was gotten since my intended involvement. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Why some of you find every facet of my life of interest is really sad. Don't you have lives to live?

I'll address some comments in particular. This is business, not nursery school. You know how much was spent and paid for the Commodore and Amiga IP over the last 15 years. Do your homework…we are talking close to 100 million dollars cumulative over all these years and by all the corporate entities that played the game. Price of entry is steep, and so is execution.  Iggy has  tons of more info that for some reason he chose not to share with you all.  

As far as using abandoned artwork, no problem here. Marko Hirv cannot be reached. Period. I tried. No luck. And yes, I did email the company he is at now….again no reply. Find him…I'll deal with him, or anyone else that falls into that category. Ever hear of an Iphone, boys and girls? Guess what…Jobs used it, took it, made it his own…knowing all the time it was the IP of Cisco. Ever hear of iTV, another recent product of the Apple guys. Also, no ownership…take it …use it…and then buy it if you must. Lawyers make a ton and the company gets what it wants, and the IP holder is paid. All good, no? That's just a small example of how business is. I am not saying it is right, just giving you a lesson in reality.

Oh…..ONE MORE THING !!!! All you self righteous self appointed moral compasses out there with the huge mouths and not much else. JUST WHO LICENSED AMIGA.ORG (http://amiga.org/) THE AMIGA TRADEMARK PROPERTY APPEARING ON YOUR BANNER MASTHEAD???   NO ONE!!
Any comments on that flagrant violation of trademark law? I'll be most interested in a reply to that one. Very interested.

So, enjoy your little clubhouse, I wish you well, and am sorry my leap into your little pond caused such an uproar. I never knew such muddy pond could even exist.

Barry"

OK, like I said a bit harsh, but apparently heartfelt. Comments?



Depends on what exactly he is that he's responding to. How diplomatically were the questions asked ? Were they asked in an accusatory manner, or politely? Much of the behavior a lot of "amiga" people showed would provoke a similar response from many people. The man has been personally insulted and his character torn at quite agressively since all this deal came to light. Sure, he may not be perfect, but who is ? What has he done that effects anyone here personally to a point that this insane behavior is even considered, let alone carried out ? Personally I'm more inclined to give people a chance than automatically dub them the anti christ.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 10, 2010, 05:57:14 AM
Quote from: fishy_fiz;578604
Depends on what exactly he is that he's responding to. How diplomatically were the questions asked ? Were they asked in an accusatory manner, or politely? Much of the behavior a lot of "amiga" people showed would provoke a similar response from many people. The man has been personally insulted and his character torn at quite agressively since all this deal came to light. Sure, he may not be perfect, but who is ? What has he done that effects anyone here personally to a point that this insane behavior is even considered, let alone carried out ? Personally I'm more inclined to give people a chance than automatically dub them the anti christ.


I guess Im not stumbling over myself to send money to a guy who has a cavalier attitude to other peoples property, makes grandiose announcements... and now admits he was lying about it.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: fishy_fiz on September 10, 2010, 10:25:46 AM
Sure, Im not saying Im in any rush to purchase anything that may come from this whole thing, but the manner in which people have expressed thier worries and/or disapprovement over what has transpired I find a little baffling. Everyone has a breaking point, even if theyve gone about things wrongly themselves, especially when all that has happened is bad, mostly inconsequential business practice. My response was mostly based around the quote though, I was simply saying I find it hard to draw conclusions from one side of a random response someone on a forum posted, and even if it was real/harsh/excessive/whatever, depending on the other side (what is this a response too even?) I can understand a breaking point influencing such a response.
At the end of the day though I dont really care too much so far, and I'll just wait until there's any signs that it'll influence my "amiga" hobby in the slightest before I start crying foul. The whole thing though seems one of the biggest, vocal, and bizarre over reactions I've seen in my lengthy time as an amiga fan. :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Hammer on September 10, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: runequester;578602
So I guess we went from

 
to
 

 
So how does Barry define "support in every way possible" ?
 


Barry is just stating the real world situation.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Piru on September 10, 2010, 12:49:08 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578528
As far as using abandoned artwork, no problem here.

 Marko Hirv cannot be reached. Period. I tried. No luck. And yes, I did email the company he is at now….again no reply.

Everyone and their grandpa knows that at this point you do NOT have permission to use the artwork. This is how copyright works, it doesn't expire or get abandoned even the author cannot be reached.

This guy doesn't give a beep and just abuses the stuff as he sees fit.

This speaks volumes about the guy.

I would seriously suggest anyone to stay well clear of the guy and especially any of his enterprises.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: kolla on September 10, 2010, 01:08:03 PM
Quote from: Piru;578624
I would seriously suggest anyone to stay well clear of the guy and especially any of his enterprises.

And Apple, who practice the same all the time, as pointed out in the rant - well, not exactly the same, but what the heck... :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: KThunder on September 10, 2010, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: Piru;578624
Everyone and their grandpa knows that at this point you do NOT have permission to use the artwork. This is how copyright works, it doesn't expire or get abandoned even the author cannot be reached.

This guy doesn't give a beep and just abuses the stuff as he sees fit.

This speaks volumes about the guy.

I would seriously suggest anyone to stay well clear of the guy and especially any of his enterprises.


I would suggest people go ahead and buy and support whatever they feel like. If this guy gets in trouble, so what. You'll be out tech support, but if you really wanted that you'd have gone with a dell or hp or whatever instead of a startup.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: KThunder on September 10, 2010, 03:58:59 PM
I won't buy any commodore pc of course, since I build and mod all my own pc's and cases. I'm just saying, I don't agree with Michael Dell on everything I'm sure, but I own several dell computers. I think that Steve Jobs is a fantastic businissman but a questionable person (Drugs all cleared out there buddy?) but I wouldn't let that stop me from buying a mac.

This isn't a religion. We don't need to know the quality of the person selling whatever to buy their product. And we don't need to be police officers or copyright wranglers to buy a cool looking, or not, computer.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: redrumloa on September 10, 2010, 05:01:11 PM
Quote from: KThunder;578657

This isn't a religion. We don't need to know the quality of the person selling whatever to buy their product.

Right, this isn't a religion. So why would someone pay a premium for a Cybernet Zero footprint PC with a brand label slapped on it?
 
OTOH there is a tint shop around the corner from where I live which is run by a guy being charged with murder. I seriously doubt I will be buying their product or service. Sometimes character does play into it.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: vidarh on September 10, 2010, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Piru;578624
Everyone and their grandpa knows that at this point you do NOT have permission to use the artwork. This is how copyright works, it doesn't expire or get abandoned even the author cannot be reached.


That is how it legally is. That doesn't mean that we all agree that is how it should be. Nor has it been like that for very long.

Copyright as it became inshrined in law in the US and most of Europe at least, was intended to provide a time limited incentive in order to encourage innovation and creation. Once it does not serve that purpose, it may still legally be wrong to reuse a work, but morally there is no longer any need for the work to be protected and there's little reason to be concerned about it.

It may not have been a very classy move, nor legal, but on the other hand I completely fail to get even slightly annoyed that someone took an image that has been floating around for years, that has minimal commercial value for the original artist, and put it on their site after allegedly trying to contact him and failing to get a response.

He's taking a legal risk, and that is all on him.

I'm even conflicted about the removal/restoration of the artists name. On one hand it seems disrespectful. On the other hand, is it better to leave the name on if the artist may possibly object to being associated with a commercial venture?

In many countries, such as Norway since that's the case I know best, copyrights and creators rights are separate. That is, you can give/sell/rent copyrights, but creators right *always* remains with the creator of a work, and they include both the absolute right to get credit for your work if you wish, but also the right to have your name taken *off* a work that you feel have been altered or used in such a way that it does not reflect you.

Arguably, in some cases, if you are prepared to take the risk of using a work you have not secured rights t - whether or not that is justified - it may be morally the right thing to do to consider whether or not to remove the name of the creator of the work as long as you don't know the wishes of the creator of the work.

As for restoring it - since the community has in this case plastered the name all over the place, that pretty much removed any reason to keep the name off the image.

Frankly, unless Marko Hirv shows up and raises hell over the abuse of the image, I don't see the point of caring about this.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: vidarh on September 10, 2010, 05:05:32 PM
Quote from: redrumloa;578666
Right, this isn't a religion. So why would someone pay a premium for a Cybernet Zero footprint PC with a brand label slapped on it?


People pay extra to get labels they like on a product all the time. Why would computers be any different?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 10, 2010, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: vidarh;578667
That is how it legally is. That doesn't mean that we all agree that is how it should be. Nor has it been like that for very long.

Copyright as it became inshrined in law in the US and most of Europe at least, was intended to provide a time limited incentive in order to encourage innovation and creation. Once it does not serve that purpose, it may still legally be wrong to reuse a work, but morally there is no longer any need for the work to be protected and there's little reason to be concerned about it.

It may not have been a very classy move, nor legal, but on the other hand I completely fail to get even slightly annoyed that someone took an image that has been floating around for years, that has minimal commercial value for the original artist, and put it on their site after allegedly trying to contact him and failing to get a response.

He's taking a legal risk, and that is all on him.

I'm even conflicted about the removal/restoration of the artists name. On one hand it seems disrespectful. On the other hand, is it better to leave the name on if the artist may possibly object to being associated with a commercial venture?

In many countries, such as Norway since that's the case I know best, copyrights and creators rights are separate. That is, you can give/sell/rent copyrights, but creators right *always* remains with the creator of a work, and they include both the absolute right to get credit for your work if you wish, but also the right to have your name taken *off* a work that you feel have been altered or used in such a way that it does not reflect you.

Arguably, in some cases, if you are prepared to take the risk of using a work you have not secured rights t - whether or not that is justified - it may be morally the right thing to do to consider whether or not to remove the name of the creator of the work as long as you don't know the wishes of the creator of the work.

As for restoring it - since the community has in this case plastered the name all over the place, that pretty much removed any reason to keep the name off the image.

Frankly, unless Marko Hirv shows up and raises hell over the abuse of the image, I don't see the point of caring about this.


Do you think he'd be as cavalier about me putting amiga stickers on some PC's I build myself, and selling them as CommodoreUSA ?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 10, 2010, 07:16:13 PM
Quote from: runequester;578669
Do you think he'd be as cavalier about me putting amiga stickers on some PC's I build myself, and selling them as CommodoreUSA ?


Yes.  I do.  I think he would either just ignore you and not feel bad about it, or call you up and hash out a deal where you paid to continue doing you rebadging.  Either way I don't think he would be upset about it in the slightest.  He would see it as pretty standard in the business world, and he would be right.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 10, 2010, 07:16:53 PM
Quote from: the_leander;578595
Clearly you didn't bother reading the response directed at you.

Your (and his) "point" is utter bunkum.

Even ignoring for the moment that Amiga.inc have stated in the past that there is no issue with AO,  Trademarks do not work that way.

Oh, you can here for an argument. Well try and actually have a point, rather than just a negative response.

As to his point, "bunkum" or not, he did pay to use Amiga and Commodore.

Do I think there's a problem with Amiga.org's use of the term Amiga? Of course not (if you'd read my response on this matter).

As to taking sides in this, I personally can't because I consider it to be a dead issue. The Amiga name was sold like the commodity it is.

Personally, as a MorphOS user, I don't currently use and do not ever expect to use anything with an Amiga label (be it an OS or a computer).
But, its interesting seeing all of you get up in arms over the matter.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 10, 2010, 07:19:32 PM
Quote from: Belial6;578692
Yes.  I do.  I think he would either just ignore you and not feel bad about it, or call you up and hash out a deal where you paid to continue doing you rebadging.  Either way I don't think he would be upset about it in the slightest.  He would see it as pretty standard in the business world, and he would be right.


Maybe things are different if you run a theoretical business on the internet, but I can assure you that in the corporate world where money is changing hands and identity has monetary value, nobody thinks like that.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 10, 2010, 07:40:21 PM
Quote from: runequester;578694
Maybe things are different if you run a theoretical business on the internet, but I can assure you that in the corporate world where money is changing hands and identity has monetary value, nobody thinks like that.


The rebadging of products and licensing of trademarks that happen all the time proves beyond a shadow otherwise.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 10, 2010, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: Belial6;578698
The rebadging of products and licensing of trademarks that happen all the time proves beyond a shadow otherwise.


If a product is licensed, then money is changing hands and the lawyers are happy.

Give it a shot though. Buy some cheap chinese knock off mp3 players, brand them as ipods, call your company "apple" and start selling them.

Let me know how that works out.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 10, 2010, 08:17:16 PM
Quote from: runequester;578708
If a product is licensed, then money is changing hands and the lawyers are happy.

Give it a shot though. Buy some cheap chinese knock off mp3 players, brand them as ipods, call your company "apple" and start selling them.

Let me know how that works out.

I don't want to be the one to break this to you, but Apple hardware generally is made in China with cheap labor (haven't you heard about Foxconn's employee suicide problems).

And that's not really to the point. If Apple was out of business and a holding company had the brand name in its assets, I'm sure you could work out a deal to brand your products as Apples.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 10, 2010, 08:33:10 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578710
I don't want to be the one to break this to you, but Apple hardware generally is made in China with cheap labor (haven't you heard about Foxconn's employee suicide problems).


Most consumer electronics in the west are built that way. Its the only way to push the prices down.

It's entirely irrelevant to the point. Substitute any other company name if you will.

Quote
And that's not really to the point. If Apple was out of business and a holding company had the brand name in its assets, I'm sure you could work out a deal to brand your products as Apples.


You would do this by contacting the holding company first, and working out a deal.
Appropriating IP and then asking if its okay later tends to lead to lawyers.


Of course, at this moment, we don't even know if the amiga.inc deal was legal to begin with. Hyperion seems to disagree but we'll see what comes out of that.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 10, 2010, 08:52:35 PM
Quote from: runequester;578714
Most consumer electronics in the west are built that way. Its the only way to push the prices down.

It's entirely irrelevant to the point. Substitute any other company name if you will.



You would do this by contacting the holding company first, and working out a deal.
Appropriating IP and then asking if its okay later tends to lead to lawyers.


Of course, at this moment, we don't even know if the amiga.inc deal was legal to begin with. Hyperion seems to disagree but we'll see what comes out of that.

That is a fair point. According to Altman, when he first started using the Commodore name his license (from a company that apparently was only a licensee itself, and then only for game products) wasn't valid for selling computers. He has since negotiated a license with the proper company and his license for the Amiga name is from Bill McEwen at Amiga Inc.

Further, he's offered to answer any questions we have (just call) and he's perfectly willing to produce his licensing agreements. Finally, as I've said before, he's stated that he'd like to pay for the use of the artwork everyone is so upset by. So all this furor over assumed improprieties is nonsense.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 10, 2010, 09:04:12 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578716
That is a fair point. According to Altman, when he first started using the Commodore name his license (from a company that apparently was only a licensee itself, and then only for game products) wasn't valid for selling computers. He has since negotiated a license with the proper company and his license for the Amiga name is from Bill McEwen at Amiga Inc.


You know, sooner or later he's going to try that with a company which has lawyers and teeth.

And he is going to get absolutely mauled.

As for my wanting an argument, I was talking to someone else in the thread, not you. Wind your neck in.

Finally LOL@Belia's ideas about Trademark.

You do realise that Apple, amongst others have been lobbying for years about Chinese companies producing and selling knock-offs of their kit, right?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Boudicca on September 10, 2010, 09:59:13 PM
Heres my pennies worth.

Its a name ! It's a brand ! Its not that important ! and the Amiga PC will just fail......even if it did....once a few computers have been sold, Mr Comode will just get sued by Amiga.Inc because they have found a better bedfellow to fleece.

If the Amiga name is so precious....get out ya cheque book or go get someone else's cheque book and buy the bloody thing!

Even then it ain't worth the paper its written on....get over it.

The only thing worth anything is the OS and thats not Amiga stINCs anymore.

Let them build Amiga PC's if they make a success of it, good luck to them, so far it and commodore have been a bit of a boulder round every other pc vendors neck who have tried to cash in....

Everyone knows its a sacred cow and trying to rebrand it on everything just makes a stock room full of used coffee coasters.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: billt on September 10, 2010, 10:00:12 PM
Barry's rant reminds me of a story. A kid wanted a bicycle, and asked his parents for it as a gift, but he did not get one. So he stole one and asked god for forgiveness.

OK, so that's doable, and there's examples where courts ruled for the theives, that don't make it something that everyone needs to be happy about. You should try a little harder to not piss off those who you'd like as customers. As we're only a small bunch now, we kindof stick together, when we're not arguing over which color rules, and are somewhat protective of our friends.

So you can't contact the guy. In situations like this, morality says that a lack of an explicit yes means no. That doesn't mean we should be happy that you steal it and leave it to him to sue you later.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Belial6 on September 10, 2010, 10:13:14 PM
Quote from: the_leander;578722
You know, sooner or later he's going to try that with a company which has lawyers and teeth.

And he is going to get absolutely mauled.

As for my wanting an argument, I was talking to someone else in the thread, not you. Wind your neck in.

Finally LOL@Belia's ideas about Trademark.

You do realise that Apple, amongst others have been lobbying for years about Chinese companies producing and selling knock-offs of their kit, right?


Seriously, have you never heard of Asprin?  

Also, you are posting in a public forum.  Telling a member of the forum that he shouldn't be getting involved in the discussion is ridiculous.

The fact is, he is NOT going to get mauled.  The worst he is going to get is a sternly written letter from the other parties lawyer.  You are completely delusional about how these things work.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: eb15 on September 10, 2010, 11:04:29 PM
Sales volume and profits is the only thing that will determine the outcome of this exercise.  About the only thing a small upstart company like this could do for AROS is supply a few machines and whatever hardware info they get from their suppliers to dedicated AROS developers, and some website links to the AROS related sites for buyers of their machines to visit.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 11, 2010, 02:03:29 AM
Quote from: Belial6;578731
Seriously, have you never heard of Asprin?  


Apparently you haven't. Aspirin lost its trademark as part of Germany's war reparations after WW1.

Last I checked, Commodore was a company that went bankrupt and as cool as the Amiga was, doesn't nearly come into the same level of ubiquity as Apirin and it's derivatives.

Also, the USA, whilst it may have lost Vietnam, has never been pulverised into submission on its own turf AFAIK.

Quote from: Belial6;578731

Also, you are posting in a public forum.  Telling a member of the forum that he shouldn't be getting involved in the discussion is ridiculous.


I told him to wind his neck in because the very thing he was having a pop at me over had been answered in a post specifically replying to him. He may have missed it, but as it was he looked a little silly responding to something said that was unrelated to him.

As for you: pot, kettle, black.

Quote from: Belial6;578731

The fact is, he is NOT going to get mauled.  The worst he is going to get is a sternly written letter from the other parties lawyer.  


Apple have form for spanking small companies that commit acts of copyright infringement against them. As do most large multinationals. Watch Slashdot for any length of time and you'll see any number of stories under about big companies going after smaller ones that have taken liberties with their IP.

They'll ignore him now most likely, but the moment they see him turn a half decent profit using their IP, he is royally boned.

Quote from: Belial6;578731

You are completely delusional about how these things work.


I'm sorry, I'm still waiting for your backing up of your baseless ad hom against everyone here who disagreed with you on the previous threads about being hypocrites.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 11, 2010, 02:39:06 AM
I had just about came around to C=USA before Barry shot his mouth off.  I said that if they offered a true all-in-one (computer+screen in one and a bluetooth keyboard & mouse) under the Amiga name I'd be interested.  But now I think I'll just let it go and move on.  Barry's free to say anything he wants but I'm equally free to avoid his products.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 11, 2010, 03:00:08 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578752
Apparently you haven't. Aspirin lost its trademark as part of Germany's war reparations after WW1.

Last I checked, Commodore was a company that went bankrupt and as cool as the Amiga was, doesn't nearly come into the same level of ubiquity as Apirin and it's derivatives.

Also, the USA, whilst it may have lost Vietnam, has never been pulverised into submission on its own turf AFAIK.



I told him to wind his neck in because the very thing he was having a pop at me over had been answered in a post specifically replying to him. He may have missed it, but as it was he looked a little silly responding to something said that was unrelated to him.

As for you: pot, kettle, black.



Apple have form for spanking small companies that commit acts of copyright infringement against them. As do most large multinationals. Watch Slashdot for any length of time and you'll see any number of stories under about big companies going after smaller ones that have taken liberties with their IP.

They'll ignore him now most likely, but the moment they see him turn a half decent profit using their IP, he is royally boned.

I'm sorry, I'm still waiting for your backing up of your baseless ad hom against everyone here who disagreed with you on the previous threads about being hypocrites.

Aspirin is still trademarked in many countries, Germany was not the point.

In your opinion I may look silly, but since your terse comments rarely reference who your answering let alone actually make a point I'm not worried about who is looking silly and I'm not asking your permission to respond.

As far as Apple's tendency toward litigious behavior, Apple sues anyone regardless of whether their claims are valid or not. How else could you explain the lawsuits against the Beatles' record label (which existed long before Apple computers).

What the hell does the US' actions in Vietnam have to do with anything? And, no, we weren't pulverized in a war on our own turf (unlike Germany in WWII, which by the way they so seriously deserved).

Your argument is vitriolic, but you fail to make clear, valid, points.

Instead of stating your opinions, why don't you back up those statements with rational logic?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 11, 2010, 03:32:51 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578765
As far as Apple's tendency toward litigious behavior, Apple sues anyone regardless of whether their claims are valid or not. How else could you explain the lawsuits against the Beatles' record label (which existed long before Apple computers).


Uh, the lawsuits were all initiated by Apple Corps, the parent company of Apple Records, not Apple Computer.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 11, 2010, 04:25:06 AM
Quote from: mongo;578768
Uh, the lawsuits were all initiated by Apple Corps, the parent company of Apple Records, not Apple Computer.

Interesting point, I should research my facts better before using them in an argument.

Since I still consider Apple's reflexive litigation to be excessive, that fact weakens part of my post.

Still, as it was made in haste, I don't feel too bad about the overall content of the post.

Having been abused by one too many German posters who assume some level of intellectual superiority, it seemed appropriate to remind our German compatriot that not all German endeavors have been that noble.

Also, the level of bitter contention over the use of long dead trademarks seemed excessive.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 11, 2010, 06:37:15 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578765
Aspirin is still trademarked in many countries, Germany was not the point.


According to Wikipedia, it isn't in much of the west, or really anywhere that actually gives a crap about trademarks.

Quote from: Iggy;578765

In your opinion I may look silly, but since your terse comments rarely reference who your answering let alone actually make a point I'm not worried about who is looking silly and I'm not asking your permission to respond.


Actually, they do reference who I'm responding to, sadly you're incapable apparently of understanding plain English. Try reading instead of skimming.

Please, feel free to quote at random and attack those posts for not answering questions that were answered in other posts.

Your flapping is amusing.

Quote from: Iggy;578765

What the hell does the US' actions in Vietnam have to do with anything? And, no, we weren't pulverized in a war on our own turf (unlike Germany in WWII, which by the way they so seriously deserved).


You can't possibly be this obtuse.

Are you even bothering to follow the conversation or have you decided to just quote mine for the fun of it?

Quote from: Iggy;578765

Instead of stating your opinions, why don't you back up those statements with rational logic?


Try bothering to read what is actually being said, and in the context it is being said and you might actually get somewhere.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 11, 2010, 07:17:39 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578772

Having been abused by one too many German posters who assume some level of intellectual superiority, it seemed appropriate to remind our German compatriot that not all German endeavors have been that noble.


And there we have it ladies and gentlemen.

Son, you just went full retard.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Andre.Siegel on September 11, 2010, 09:16:16 AM
Quote from: Iggy;578772
Having been abused by one too many German posters who assume some level of intellectual superiority, it seemed appropriate to remind our German compatriot that not all German endeavors have been that noble.


At the risk of being accused of being an abusive German who assumes some level of intellectual superiority, I would like to point out that the_leander lists both his location, which might require a quick online search, and his real name, which, especially considering the spelling, would be considered rather uncommon anywhere on the European mainland where Germany just so happens to be located.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 11, 2010, 10:02:50 AM
Sigh... On a day like today, 9/11, we've got some crazy old American pastor on the brink of causing the next world war by wanting to burn the Koran. The 9/11 remembrance day is being taken over by protesters. :(

Now on here we've got let's attack CommodoreUSA and have a go at the Germans day... :(

Glad I live in Scotland where things like that never happen, we Scots only fight amongst ourselves, then go to the pub afterwards and have a few pints and a good laugh about it and then blame the English for all our problems. :roflmao:

C'mon folks get a grip, get a life, get real... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Argo on September 11, 2010, 12:27:01 PM
Okay guys, watch it. Lay off the diggs at each other and try to stay on topic.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 11, 2010, 06:02:16 PM
Sorry Andre,
It was not very considerate of me attacking an entire country, when so many of the people who's posts I've learned from and agree with come from that country, particularly when the person I'm addressing does not come from that country.
Apparently, I don't don't know how to communicate effectively in the only language I speak as the majority of my post was ignored in yet another simplistic negative post.

@ Franko - Your comment makes the Scots seem frighteningly like the Irish (my ancestors). Would that we all could disagree, fight, and then come to terms. Such an idea seems so much more civil then what the world has come to.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Darrin on September 11, 2010, 07:06:13 PM
Quote from: Franko;578784
Sigh... On a day like today, 9/11, we've got some crazy old American pastor on the brink of causing the next world war by wanting to burn the Koran. The 9/11 remembrance day is being taken over by protesters. :(

Now on here we've got let's attack CommodoreUSA and have a go at the Germans day... :(

Glad I live in Scotland where things like that never happen, we Scots only fight amongst ourselves, then go to the pub afterwards and have a few pints and a good laugh about it and then blame the English for all our problems. :roflmao:

C'mon folks get a grip, get a life, get real... :rolleyes:


Ah, but you Jocks are just a bunch of thistle-arsed, haggis buggering cross-dressers!

Unlike us Welsh who are real men...  who just happen to enjoy shagging sheep.  :D
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 11, 2010, 07:12:23 PM
Quote from: Darrin;578828
Ah, but you Jocks are just a bunch of thistle-arsed, haggis buggering cross-dressers!

Unlike us Welsh who are real men...  who just happen to enjoy shagging sheep.  :D


see you jimmy, ah shud gie ye a Glesga kiss fur rat... :hammer:

(damn, the thing is its true... :) )

Wales must be the only place left where Sheep worrying is not considered a crime but more of a right... :roflmao:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Darrin on September 11, 2010, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: Franko;578830
see you jimmy, ah shud gie ye a Glesga kiss fur rat... :hammer:

(damn, the thing is its true... :) )

Wales must be the only place left where Sheep worrying is not considered a crime but more of a right... :roflmao:


I use mint sauce as a lubricant.  :D
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Franko on September 11, 2010, 10:34:52 PM
Quote from: Darrin;578859
I use mint sauce as a lubricant.  :D


I'd hate to be sitting in a restaurant with you when the waiter asks, 'Would sir like some mint sauce on his lamb'.... :roflmao:
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: cheech on September 11, 2010, 10:43:18 PM
Acid dads are some how mix up in all this c.u.s.a stuff to!
http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbthread.pl/amiga/expand/176605
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Amiga_Nut on September 12, 2010, 03:39:25 AM
Quote from: the-topdog;578539
I don't really blame the guy... instead of constructive comments on his business, he gets nothing but shit from the people he assumed would be happy.

Besides using someone-else's artwork, what did he do wrong?  He is just trying to run a business, not a hobby.

Negativeness breeds negativeness.  Just look at how his first interaction was calm but after the continual barbs and attacks his second response was terse.

The only two things I do not agree with him about is the artwork and his comments about Trademark infringement.

Well for a start he didn't even claim to be actually making a machine that looks like the image in the artwork.........which I suspect will turn out to be yet another hunk of shit far east PC with a 100% mark up to cover the cost of producing an "Amiga" sticky label lol

When he manufactures something even cosmetically relevant to the brand 'Commodore' or 'Amiga' rather than just geting some 50 cent labels of said brands made up to stick on some pile of shit butt ugly Chinese PCs running Linux/Windwos then we can talk again.

For now it's case closed as far as Mr Bullshit Altman goes :)

PS Commodore Cyprus (N) have today announced a new partnership deal to produce the Commodore Dimin....a totally unique, and cutting edge design, machine allowing you to relive the splendour of the Commodore 64 in these modern times with all the advantages that modern technology and modern form factor possibilities produce.

More info to follow shortly, get saving though, at only 99 bucks this is going to be the must have gift for your fellow Commodore fan this Xmas.....

(oooo now is this a joke comment or has someone found a way to out bullshit the king bullshitter LOL who knows!)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Pyromania on September 12, 2010, 04:48:03 AM
Put up or shut up. CommodoreUSA should sell machines and get reviews going or shut the hell up. Do more and talk less. Let the market decide if they are good systems or crap. Talk is cheap.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 12, 2010, 08:12:33 PM
Quote from: Pyromania;578896
Put up or shut up. CommodoreUSA should sell machines and get reviews going or shut the hell up. Do more and talk less. Let the market decide if they are good systems or crap. Talk is cheap.


That would be the real test.

So, instead of letting my inner retard shine, I'll relay one more comment from Mr. Altman.

Barry claimed he was going to try to have the PC64 ready for sale by Christmas. Since he was still in the process of getting the case molds made, I think he'll be hard pressed to accomplish this in such a short time.

So there's your first put up or shut up test.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 12, 2010, 08:26:36 PM
Doesn't really matter, the big think this Christmas are touch devices, Father Christmas is going to be loaded down with iPads and Android tablets...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 12, 2010, 08:45:02 PM
Quote from: persia;578983
Doesn't really matter, the big think this Christmas are touch devices, Father Christmas is going to be loaded down with iPads and Android tablets...

It is amazing how well Android has done in the market. I keep hearing comments from the developers about how difficult the platform is to develop code on.
Then again, I imagine developing software for Apple devices may be more difficult considering Apple's tight control of that market.

Still, its hard not to imagine a market for a PC in a C64 case. The Commodore geeks would love the retro factor.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 12, 2010, 09:55:27 PM
It's impossible to gage the amount of demand for a PC 64, a lot depends on price and what else is on the market.  It would be hard to sell retro styling at USD 600, you can get a decent laptop for that, but maybe USD 400, well, maybe.  Remember a lot of people can like something but when it comes to actually putting the card on the table to pay for it they're going to be a lot more conservative.

Android phone sales are catching up to iPhone pretty fast, it's true, but Google just dumped a bucket of cold water (http://www.pcworld.com/article/205266/google_dont_get_excited_about_android_tablets_yet.html?tk=hp_pop) on tablets....
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 12, 2010, 10:13:15 PM
Quote from: Iggy;578980
That would be the real test.

So, instead of letting my inner retard shine, I'll relay one more comment from Mr. Altman.

Barry claimed he was going to try to have the PC64 ready for sale by Christmas. Since he was still in the process of getting the case molds made, I think he'll be hard pressed to accomplish this in such a short time.

So there's your first put up or shut up test.


Case molds? Does he even have a working prototype yet? Or is he just going to copy the C64 case exactly and hope that somehow a PC motherboard is going to fit in there? What is he planning to do for a keyboard and a keyboard controller? What is he going to do for a power supply? How is he going to get FCC approval?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: haywirepc on September 12, 2010, 11:09:43 PM
"How is he going to get FCC approval?"
 
Do you really think a guy who is stealing copyrighted artwork, stealing his whole website from apple, stealing his product manuals word for word from cybernet, a guy who is slapping commodore stickers on existing pc products, do you really think a guy like that will actually get
fcc approval? Your kidding right?
 
Steven
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 12, 2010, 11:47:28 PM
The uncertainties about FCC certification, what type of MB is going to be used, keyboard mapping, and other particulars all make this product's proposed availability date questionable.

With only about three months left, will it be available? I don't know.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: mongo on September 13, 2010, 12:20:33 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;579009
"How is he going to get FCC approval?"
 
Do you really think a guy who is stealing copyrighted artwork, stealing his whole website from apple, stealing his product manuals word for word from cybernet, a guy who is slapping commodore stickers on existing pc products, do you really think a guy like that will actually get
fcc approval? Your kidding right?
 
Steven


Barry wouldn't do any thing illegal, would he?

Actually, if you look at the Cybernet ZPC9100, I mean Commodore Phoenix manual, it is a FCC Class A device, meaning Barry can't legally sell it for home use.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 13, 2010, 03:16:59 AM
Quote from: Darrin;578859
I use mint sauce as a lubricant.  :D


Tripi's tip time:

If you paint a wolf,s head on the wall and point the sheep in that direction they push back harder.....
....so I've heard. :D
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 13, 2010, 03:23:24 AM
But to get back on topic....

I don't care how many stickers anyone sticks on an x86. It's still not a bl**dy Amiga.

I'll keep my money for SAM and Natami...
...and if I'm going to buy another X86 I would probably get the new 27" Mac, at £1400 with a screen on it worth the best part of a grand it's the first Apple that I've been truly tempted by.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 13, 2010, 03:46:56 AM
Quote from: mongo;579017
Barry wouldn't do any thing illegal, would he?

Actually, if you look at the Cybernet ZPC9100, I mean Commodore Phoenix manual, it is a FCC Class A device, meaning Barry can't legally sell it for home use.


:eek:

Well then, I guess that's that. Unless he can get the system approved, any other discussion is moot.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 13, 2010, 04:39:18 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;579028

I'll keep my money for SAM and Natami...
...and if I'm going to buy another X86 I would probably get the new 27" Mac, at £1400 with a screen on it worth the best part of a grand it's the first Apple that I've been truly tempted by.


Tbh I quite like the Asus all in ones. Except for the fact they're all using ATI. ATI drivers on Linux is even more of a hateful experience now than it was 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 13, 2010, 05:55:53 AM
Quote from: the_leander;579037
Tbh I quite like the Asus all in ones. Except for the fact they're all using ATI. ATI drivers on Linux is even more of a hateful experience now than it was 5 years ago.


I've not used Linux much to be honest. I keep going back every now and then to give it a go but I can't avoid Windoze. I'm an OU student and need to use OU software, my vinyl cutter has crap linux drivers but solid Windoze ones too, and so on. Having said that I don't try too hard to have the latest spec, I just don't need it. X86 and Windoze is for compatibility as far as I'm concerned.
Amigas (SAMS and Natami included of course) are for pure fun but the more I can use them the better.
I'm going to need another PC soon however, something portable to plug into an astronomical telescope. Again, Windows has a massive amount of high quality and mostly free software for astronomy and cheap hardware to  run it on. Closer to the time (Febuary 2011 at the latest)  I will take a look at other OS offerings in this field but I think a Windoze solution will be hard to beat, the amount of free software available for astronomers is truly breathtaking.....
...I'm pretty sure the PC will not have an Amiga sticker on it however. XD
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: persia on September 13, 2010, 06:05:30 AM
Yeah, I'm saving money for an Android tablet, even though Google has taken a step back there's going to be a ****load of them released for Christmas.  I'm leaning towards an Archos 101.  Maybe I'll put some Amiga stickers on it and run UAE on it...
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on September 13, 2010, 08:13:53 AM
Quote from: the_leander;579037
Tbh I quite like the Asus all in ones. Except for the fact they're all using ATI. ATI drivers on Linux is even more of a hateful experience now than it was 5 years ago.

I'm downgrading from 5750 to a 4650 so I can play games in screen modes other than 800x600. Also I hope to be able to use the latest Ubuntu distro. Anyone know why ATI is so slack with the drivers?
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: kolla on September 13, 2010, 09:55:58 AM
It's not ATI developing ATI drivers.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 13, 2010, 11:51:28 AM
Quote from: the_leander;578778
And there we have it ladies and gentlemen.
 
Son, you just went full retard.

That actually made me spit coffee.
 
Sounds like a line from Gran Turinio :)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 13, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Quote from: kolla;579062
It's not ATI developing ATI drivers.

 
They were at one point or at least providing them.
 
They have moved a lot of their products into legacy which means no drivers and the older drviers do not work with the later  versions of X i believe
 
I know that I dont get proper drivers for my Dell 1501 laptop after about ubuntu 8.04 LTS
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: tone007 on September 13, 2010, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: JJ;579071
That actually made me spit coffee.
 
Sounds like a line from Gran Turinio :)


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0942385/quotes?qt0477767

Haven't seen the movie yet myself, but the quotes page is pretty good.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: jj on September 13, 2010, 12:26:15 PM
I have seen it, and its actually really funny, which a surpirise.  Even Tom Cruise is really funny in this film.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 13, 2010, 12:55:38 PM
Quote from: kolla;579062
It's not ATI developing ATI drivers.


ATI are the only ones that produce anything that have hardware accelerated 3d on more than a 9200.

Problem is that they tie their binary blobs a bit too tightly to the kernel and xorg versions, meaning that any given piece of hardware has a very specific service life unless you're willing to live with old kernels and Xorg versions. But it also means that you're severely limited in terms of distros you can use - 9.x or higher versions of ubuntu for instance do not support the 200M that is in my laptop (Nor does Elive 2.0 Stable, unfortunately).

The Open Source ATI drivers provide barely more than the most primitive of framebuffer capabilities on anything more advanced than a 9600. Not even Direct Rendering (2d) is supported much past this chip.

@JJ

Good to know I haven't lost my touch ;)
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: kolla on September 13, 2010, 03:53:36 PM
Quote from: the_leander;579077
ATI are the only ones that produce anything that have hardware accelerated 3d on more than a 9200.


Right, read the posting I was commenting on.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 13, 2010, 09:59:33 PM
Quote from: kolla;579083
Right, read the posting I was commenting on.


Given that you didn't quote what you were commenting on as well as the fact that there are three comments above it that it could have been a comment on, what you're asking is impossible.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Iggy on September 15, 2010, 05:14:07 AM
Quote from: kolla;579083
Right, read the posting I was commenting on.

As little as I'd like to stick up for leander, his point was completely correct.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: runequester on September 15, 2010, 06:36:36 AM
apparently ATI released some new drivers recently so who knows. I've generally stuck with Nvidia and been pretty happy
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: Tripitaka on September 15, 2010, 06:47:51 AM
Not going to be an ATI for long, the brand name is getting phased out. By the end of the year Radeon and FirePro will be under the AMD brand instead. This will only effect new products I should hasten to add, older lines remain ATI.
Title: Re: Amiga PCs on the way....
Post by: the_leander on September 15, 2010, 06:49:18 AM
Quote from: runequester;579446
apparently ATI released some new drivers recently so who knows. I've generally stuck with Nvidia and been pretty happy


For windows maybe, but on the Linux side the "new" drivers only cover new gear (and even then not all of it).

Sadly as Nvidia weren't really on the market for notebook graphics when this one was purchased. I'm now in the position where the integrated Intel chip on my netbook now outperforms the Xpress200M that came with my Asus F5.