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Amiga.org specific forums => Amiga.org Discussion and Site Feedback => Topic started by: on January 26, 2004, 09:04:43 PM

Title: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: on January 26, 2004, 09:04:43 PM
Oh, welcome to the new Suggestions and feedback forum by the way.

Ok.  We all know how important the Talk About forums are to this site.  They are, essentially why the site remains popular through this time where there is little actual news to discuss.

The problem here is that Amiga.org's DMZ is being taken over by trolls.  Three or four to be exact, but banning them only seems to make things worse.

Once upon a time, Amiga.org's DMZ was a place of lively and intelligent discussion which actually BROUGHT people back to the site on a daily basis.  Now the same people who used to post such great inciteful posts have seemingly disappeared.  

How do we get them back?  

Can we recapture the intelligence in the Talk about forums that we used to have?  

If so, how?

I would like to hear your input on how to resolve the issue, short of making everyone a moderator.

Wayne
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: sir_inferno on January 26, 2004, 09:21:00 PM
[off topic:] how come you're officially a "webmaster" again?


and woah!

39 guests
20 members

 [/off topic]


trolls, annoying little things, i say lock them in cages


 :-D

what about having a team of "DMZ 'stimulators'" that go around posting links and stuff to make people comment, but the links have to be like, anti-troll designed. [they don't get any powers, just a nice little rank  :-) ]
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: redrumloa on January 26, 2004, 09:33:38 PM
I would have to guess that the 'anything goes' theme will be no more. Maybe changed to 'Any intelligent discussion' that is 1)In good taste, 2)legal, 3)Not for the sake only trolling alone. Maybe also add 4)Political arguements are allowed until they get unreasonably heated, at which time they will be closed.

 :-?
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Amiperson2K3 on January 26, 2004, 09:38:46 PM
To save time just set up a forum called AmigaOrg-Uncut where people can do what the hell they want when they want, unrestricted and uncensored.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Abou27 on January 26, 2004, 09:38:53 PM
Making everyone a moderator might not be a bad idea!  What I mean is: people should be capable of moderating themselves and not posting inappropiate material.  However, surely there is a place for banal banter aswell as more intelligent discussion?

As far as the trolls are concerned, the solution is to just ignore them.  It is usually pretty obvious who they are and if they are ignored (I admit I am guilty of replying to a couple in past), then hopefully they may get bored and move on.

Just a couple of my thoughts off the cuff...
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: lempkee on January 26, 2004, 09:39:01 PM
wayne:my suggestion is to make guide lines for the trolls , we all know who and how and why.

i know i can be a troll aswell but thats only when i have been triggered by a comment earlierin the thread by another troll...GRRRRRR!

i suggest that DMZ should be shown on the front page , but only 1 at a time or something (latest) ..

dont know if its possible but it would surely attract others to answer/read them aswell as the regulars, i for one mostly only read whats on the main page!.

cheers
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Lo on January 26, 2004, 09:40:32 PM
Quote
Once upon a time, Amiga.org's DMZ was a place of lively and intelligent discussion which actually BROUGHT people back to the site on a daily basis. Now the same people who used to post such great inciteful posts have seemingly disappeared.
Did this time coincide with when DMZ topics were viewable on the home page?  Perhaps folks don't like to "dig" thru all the banter on talk about, not sure.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 26, 2004, 09:40:58 PM
Quote

Abou27 wrote:#
... people should be capable of moderating themselves and not posting inappropiate material.  

Well, in theory yes!

Quote

As far as the trolls are concerned, the solution is to just ignore them.  It is usually pretty obvious who they are and if they are ignored (I admit I am guilty of replying to a couple in past), then hopefully they may get bored and move on.

But when you or I resist the temptation to reply, someone else does... :-(
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: lempkee on January 26, 2004, 09:42:20 PM
amiperson2k3; thats a silly thing! , amiga.org is a serious board (or tries to be anyway) and dooing such a thing would be a fatal flaw!.

look whats going on at ann.lu , i seriously dont go there more than umm once every week because of all the friggin lame stuff going on there, oh and they even have moderators, how do u think it will be if there was NONE at all??

Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 26, 2004, 09:46:44 PM
Quote
Redrumloa wrote:
I would have to guess that the 'anything goes' theme will be no more. Maybe changed to 'Any intelligent discussion' that is 1)In good taste, 2)legal, 3)Not for the sake only trolling alone. Maybe also add 4)Political arguements are allowed until they get unreasonably heated, at which time they will be closed.

and 5) posting guidelines still apply
and 6) users will be suspended for what moderators believe is attempting to up their post count for the sake of it.

Otherwise yeah, I think that sounds like a plan.

Hey red, you really ought to be a moderator, you know that? :P
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: alx on January 26, 2004, 09:47:56 PM
@Wayne

You've voiced my concerns exactly - however I cannot think of one great fix-all solution.

The idea I had on the other thread was limiting DMZ participation to people with more than x posts (perhaps anyone above "merely curious?"), but I'd imagine that could lead to borderline spamming to get to "DMZ status".

Some amount of user moderation like slashdot could maybe help - if a very large number of people "voted" a post bad then it could go down a level of significance or be reported automatically to mods.  But I guess that'd be a lot of work to implement, and might not work with sites smaller than /.

Perhaps a filter could be implemented that stops pictures larger than a small size appearing and converts them into links (so custom smilies will appear, but nothing else).  Or one that blocks posts with less than ten or so characters.  Or, perhaps a timer could be added like on phpBB to stop posting in quick succession (the infamous double/triple posts).

But one good thing - when was the last flamewar? :-o  :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Amiperson2K3 on January 26, 2004, 09:49:57 PM
@lempkee

It is hard as hell to stamp out the problem but if you put all the vermin in one section of this website and allow them to do their stuff in one place it will be better all around.

It sounds like a bad idea but that imo is the only way to combat the problem or worse close this site down.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 26, 2004, 09:52:26 PM
Quote
Some amount of user moderation like slashdot could maybe help - if a very large number of people "voted" a post bad then it could go down a level of significance or be reported automatically to mods. But I guess that'd be a lot of work to implement, and might not work with sites smaller than /.

I'm sorry, but I really hate that idea.  It encourages weenies to make comments to look clever.  Just look at slashdot for beaucoup de examples :-)

Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Ilwrath on January 26, 2004, 09:55:40 PM
Honestly, Wayne....  I tend to think you're kind of stuck with the trolls for the time being.  It's kind of a cycle, and trying to manipulate that cycle only seems to make it worse.

I've seen it time and again, from back in Usenet to old BBS to modern forums.  

A new forum starts...  Things are good.  New users arrive, and friendships are formed.  But as time goes on, cliques form.  They form their own 'in jokes' etc, and turn a bit on people who aren't in their group.  The people outside that group then resent the group, and purposefully troll to irratate the in group...  Eventually, everyone grows bored, the forum sits underused for a while, and then slowly picks back up again, only to restart the cycle.

Right now, I'd say the "Talk about" area is getting near the stage where everyone is growing bored.  Let it go another couple months, and it should start healing itself.

The more you try to control people into acting a certain way, the more they're going to act against your attempts.  Unfortunatly, it seems to be human nature.  To me, it's the right call to have a single mostly unmoderated forum, while patrolling the rest.  I think if you start policing the talk about too much, the problems are going to spill out to the rest of the site.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: alx on January 26, 2004, 09:59:00 PM
@Amiperson2K3

Quote
It is hard as hell to stamp out the problem but if you put all the vermin in one section of this website and allow them to do their stuff in one place it will be better all around.


But if what Wayne's said is true, that'd only eventually lead to server problems :-(

@mikeymike

I never said anything about moderating comments up :-P
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 26, 2004, 09:59:48 PM
Left alone... natural order will prevail :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 26, 2004, 10:07:40 PM
Quote
Left alone... natural order will prevail

Gently encouraged with cattle prods, so I've found :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Dalamar on January 26, 2004, 10:14:46 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote
Redrumloa wrote:
I would have to guess that the 'anything goes' theme will be no more. Maybe changed to 'Any intelligent discussion' that is 1)In good taste, 2)legal, 3)Not for the sake only trolling alone. Maybe also add 4)Political arguements are allowed until they get unreasonably heated, at which time they will be closed.

and 5) posting guidelines still apply
and 6) users will be suspended for what moderators believe is attempting to up their post count for the sake of it.

Otherwise yeah, I think that sounds like a plan.

Hey red, you really ought to be a moderator, you know that? :P



Yeah.  What they said.   :-D
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 26, 2004, 10:21:41 PM
I am inclined to agree with bloodline.

Perhaps if we make a joint effort to try and get some good conversations going. It only needs a decent thread or two to get some of the good old discussion back...
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: legion on January 26, 2004, 10:40:49 PM
Here's a crazy suggestion:  Start flying the MorphOS banner.  I assume when you say trolls, you mean 'red trolls' so why not just stop dancing around it and do it?  The red trolls already have a home at AW (see avatar), and now the blue trolls will have a home as well.

Seems plausible enough to me...  
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Seehund on January 26, 2004, 11:01:01 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote
Left alone... natural order will prevail

Gently encouraged with cattle prods, so I've found :-)


:D

(The following is not in reply to mikeymike's post)
Don't confuse trolls with crapflooders. Trolls can be clever and amusing. They're almost the only reason I read the comments at /. One person's troll is another's comedian. On another site, "trolls" are those who openly disagree with the corporate agenda du jour.

The "Amiga community's" troll population is however generally of the annoying/retarded type. /ignore is my preferred solution and it really ought to be enough, but if they get agitated by the loss of attention they often transform to crapflooders (see Mr. "Interesting" and his split personalities who currently are plaguing the Moo Bunny), and should be dealt with accordingly.

How's this for an idea to make crapflooding at least a bit more difficult:

New members (chronologically "new", not measured by post count) can only make a limited number of posts per day, and start an even more limited number of new threads. The limit on posts in one thread could be set higher (e.g. a computer problem that creates a discussion going back and forth). These limits will increase as the newbie has been around for a while.

Of course the serious crapflooder will find ways around this (multiple accounts...) but it might stop those who misbehave out of cluelessness, not malice.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: redrumloa on January 26, 2004, 11:01:43 PM
Quote

legion wrote:
Here's a crazy suggestion:  Start flying the MorphOS banner.  I assume when you say trolls, you mean 'red trolls' so why not just stop dancing around it and do it?  The red trolls already have a home at AW (see avatar), and now the blue trolls will have a home as well.

Seems plausible enough to me...  


Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about, or you are just trying to still crap up for the sake of it. Wayne is talking about plain old fashioned trolling in 'Talk About', whiuch is not even displayed on the main page. Discusion in there, by it's very nature, has nothing to do with Amiga, MOS or anything else.

What YOU are doing right now is another type of trolling which Wayne was not even talking about.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: redrumloa on January 26, 2004, 11:04:32 PM
Quote
Hey red, you really ought to be a moderator, you know that? :P


I offered to return and was politely turned down. No problem, I still would be concerned about there being a conflict of interest.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 26, 2004, 11:07:52 PM
Quote
Here's a crazy suggestion: Start flying the MorphOS banner. I assume when you say trolls, you mean 'red trolls' so why not just stop dancing around it and do it? The red trolls already have a home at AW (see avatar), and now the blue trolls will have a home as well.

I loathe the expression, but "RTFM" is in order.  Wayne is talking about talk-about, not computer-related subjects, let alone Amiga/A1/MorphOS/AROS.

And I find your comment highly offensive for reasons that should be bloody obvious.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: on January 26, 2004, 11:07:55 PM
One point though guys.

There have been a lot of good ideas, but most require a major amount of changes to the core structure of the way the forum software works.  This is something we can't really do, or we'll have to go back and reinvent the wheel later (as we're having to do now) when it's time to upgrade again.

I was thinking more along the lines of

1) refining the rules?
2) Getting stricter? (good idea or bad?)
3) Re-hashing the forums into a new schema to include more forums for personal discussion?

That sort of thing.
{edit} My idea is NOT to stifle discussion, but to make it more enjoyable and more.... intelligent

Wayne
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Methuselas on January 26, 2004, 11:11:37 PM
Hey Wayne, couldn't you have the posts expire in the DMZ, like the polls? I mean, yeah, they ARE fun to read, but if they get to big, I'm sure they cause server problems.

After all, the DMZ is just that, the DMZ. There's nothing really there that is of a viable argument to store for an extended period of time. Originally, I had thought that you could just have them expire, after not being read for some time, but after someone figure's out the limit, it wouldn't take much for them to 'bump' it and make it's time reset.

Then again, I know next to NOTHING about the server software you're using. You could also make the DMZ a place for individuals that have exceeded a number of posts. That wouldn't stop the quagmire of post count raising, but it may help.

I'd rather not lose it all together, however. Some of my best laughs have come from that forum. :-?
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: on January 26, 2004, 11:29:33 PM
Quote
I offered to return and was politely turned down


I don't recall turning you down in regards to moderation.  I remember the partnership issue however, perhaps we're mixing and matching those two things?
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: on January 26, 2004, 11:31:01 PM
Quote
Hey Wayne, couldn't you have the posts expire in the DMZ, like the polls?
No.  Xoops doesn't offer this feature.

Wayne
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: redrumloa on January 26, 2004, 11:39:37 PM
Quote

Wayne wrote:
Quote
I offered to return and was politely turned down


I don't recall turning you down in regards to moderation.  I remember the partnership issue however, perhaps we're mixing and matching those two things?


I wouldn't confuse that, definately different occasions. I'm not complaining, just a off hand reply:-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Methuselas on January 26, 2004, 11:40:43 PM
Quote
1) refining the rules?


I always thought the rules were quite fine, but I may be wrong.

Quote
2) Getting stricter? (good idea or bad?)


It depends on how it goes. I can tell you that *I*, personally, would go through withdrawals if I got banned from A.org for a week or so. I don't see how that could backfire either, 'cos the more out of line or rowdy  they get about it, the more they're banned.

Quote
3) Re-hashing the forums into a new schema to include more forums for personal discussion?


I LIKE this idea. Call it the 'Gibberish Section' or something that's exclusively for the humor and guffaw of the Amiga.org members. THAT would cut down on the DMZ posting and those that could care less about those particular threads, wouldn't need or bother to go.

I will admit that I have been WAY out there on my posts at times (thank GOD no one's fragged me for some of them. :-D) , but what Amiga user out there ISN'T way out there??!?? Maybe the Mods should lock threads more often or just outright give warning, 'Hey...it's getting a bit out of hand.' and kick 'em for a time, if they don't listen. I mean, if  I said something that was out of line (which I assume I have not) and got kicked for a time for it, I'd have no one to blame, but myself.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Dr.Bongo on January 26, 2004, 11:48:38 PM
How about if posts in the Talk-about section didn`t count toward your post rating. Wouldn`t this mean people would be more likley to only post if they had something genuine/intersting to say?

It seems a little silly that you have to go to measures though. If people genuinely support the Amiga you`d think they would support it`s user groups.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: smithy on January 26, 2004, 11:50:24 PM
I don't post on a.org very often, but I do read it everyday.  What annoys me most about the forums is:

1.  People using HTML in their posts - often enormous images, which also appear in people's replies to the offending post.

2.  People posting garbage like "this is my 4000th post".  I think this is the worst kind of crapflooding.

3.  People posting stuff for the sake of it, that doesn't actually say anything.

What I'd like to stay in the Talk-about forums:

1.  People posting stuff about their lives - like finishing uni & wondering what to do next, just been dumped, planning a travel adventure, etc...  Amigans still have lives outside their Amiga-ish systems and some of these threads have been interesting reading and had some insightful replies.

2.  Politics.  Apart from "FluffyMcDeath"'s never ending and tiresome crusade against the United States (this loon also used to have a picture of a 20-year old Saddam Hussein on his avatar).  I've read some interesting threads about politics with an international flavour that you don't always find in Murdoch's finest.

If you're having trouble with your moderators, then I'd be quite happy to volunteer.  I'm well qualified because I am not allied with either side (I was indepdently classified as a "freelance/general troll" on ANN!).  I am definately not a name-follower, and I won't be putting up with any stupid picture-threads, threads about people bragging that they've posted 3 million pieces of ####, I don't get power-crazed, I'm not a patronising twit (like a certain other moderator here is), and I'm not about to fall in love with either side.

Waiting in anticipation  :-D

-smithy

Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Kees on January 26, 2004, 11:54:55 PM
Quote
Here's a crazy suggestion: Start flying the MorphOS banner. I assume when you say trolls, you mean 'red trolls' so why not just stop dancing around it and do it? The red trolls already have a home at AW (see avatar), and now the blue trolls will have a home as well.


This has nothing to do with red or blue trolls ... just general trolls.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Kees on January 26, 2004, 11:57:18 PM
Quote
I offered to return and was politely turned down.


I only recall that you said that you might want to return some day ... I can't recall turning you down ...

Kees

Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: that_punk_guy on January 27, 2004, 12:00:37 AM
It would be a nice start if we really knew what was considered acceptable. I mean, this has all blown up just now, mostly down to a couple of wankers who think they're rather funny. You can't underestimate the effect they've had on people, even those who don't appreciate their humour.

But I don't know the extent to which Wayne sees fit to cut back on off-topic conversation. For instance, if I start a thread about Paintmashing, is that welcome, or simply "tolerated?" This is freaking most people out, they're wondering what they've done wrong. I think in all fairness, names should be named. There are a couple of members that most people would like to see banned. Ones who cross the line on purpose and don't see fit to rectify it when they realise it's offending people. Perhaps that, coupled with the fact that we're now talking about this, would help?
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: smithy on January 27, 2004, 12:02:33 AM
Oh... and people posting jokes;  NO! :-x





Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 27, 2004, 12:02:33 AM
Wayne, Kees, Red!!! Lads lads lads... lets keep this on topic please :lol:
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: that_punk_guy on January 27, 2004, 12:03:14 AM
Quote

smithy wrote:
FluffyMcDeath... loon...


Where's the wisdom in slagging people off in this of all threads?
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Methuselas on January 27, 2004, 12:11:05 AM
Quote
Where's the wisdom in slagging people off in this of all threads?


I couldn't agree more, Mate. ;-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 27, 2004, 12:12:42 AM
Quote

that_punk_guy wrote:
Quote

smithy wrote:
FluffyMcDeath... loon...


Where's the wisdom in slagging people off in this of all threads?


I agree, I like having Fluffy around, he doesn't post stupid pictures and troll with his mates. I liked AOrg the way it was last Autumn, when the DMZ was lively, before T_bone left...

Honestly guys, instead of making rules, shall we just lead by example? Lets get back to some good ol' discussion. And if someone trolls, ignore them, no matter how tempting it is to reply!
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 27, 2004, 12:14:29 AM
Amiga.org is what we make it...
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Tomas on January 27, 2004, 12:21:38 AM
Make some stricter rules, then give a warning or two when rule is broken... If that fails, then ban is only option i guess...
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Wain on January 27, 2004, 12:32:05 AM
I would agree with a combination of Wayne's suggestions (built upon by some others)  Say...moderators could be a bit more strict in enforcing rules, but also create a seperate forum for 'just plain goofiness."

If possible, set the then established 'goofiness' forum to automatically dump threads that have had no activity for more than 2 weeks.

Then when an inappropriate thread comes down the talk-about section, it can be moved and the poster can be slapped.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 03:05:51 AM
Quote
1. People using HTML in their posts - often enormous images, which also appear in people's replies to the offending post.
Why shouldn't people take advantage of the World Wide Web when posting on a web forum?!? Perhaps we should turn A.org into a telnet/gopher server then?!?

Quote
2. People posting garbage like "this is my 4000th post". I think this is the worst kind of crapflooding.
It's called a right of passage. It's goofy, no argument there, but at the same time it's good to (self) honor those long time users of Amiga.org, with which without there would not BE an Amiga.org.

Quote
3. People posting stuff for the sake of it, that doesn't actually say anything.
Well that's highly subjective. Communication is always good. I'm surprised people are so anal about this crap-flooding BS. Personally, I think it livens things up a bit. I mean, A.org is full of wacky characters, many of which I strongly disagree with, while others I'm indifferent with, but I'd never want to see anyone be removed. If someone's a goof, well, the world is full of goofs and that tells me that even goofs have a role to play.

Quote
2. Politics. Apart from "FluffyMcDeath"'s never ending and tiresome crusade against the United States (this loon also used to have a picture of a 20-year old Saddam Hussein on his avatar).
One man's loon is another man's straight talker. However it seems you're perfectly fine with personal attacks (perhaps you should have made that point number 3). How charming.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 03:09:32 AM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Wayne, Kees, Red!!! Lads lads lads... lets keep this on topic please :lol:
Please Bloodline, no laughing allowed! However it's perfectly fine to insult someone.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 03:11:04 AM
Quote
And if someone trolls, ignore them, no matter how tempting it is to reply!
Exactly! Perhaps we should penalize those who respond to the troll!

EDIT: Of course I'm just kidding.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 27, 2004, 03:35:49 AM
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Quote
1. People using HTML in their posts - often enormous images, which also appear in people's replies to the offending post.
Why shouldn't people take advantage of the World Wide Web when posting on a web forum?!? Perhaps we should turn A.org into a telnet/gopher server then?!?


I agree, in any case it is only recently that people have started to find it annoying. Everything in moderation eh?

Quote

Quote
2. People posting garbage like "this is my 4000th post". I think this is the worst kind of crapflooding.
It's called a right of passage. It's goofy, no argument there, but at the same time it's good to (self) honor those long time users of Amiga.org, with which without there would not BE an Amiga.org.


Not only that, but I always thought those posts were meant to be a little tongue-in-cheek. I might write, "1000 posts, WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!" But if people seriously find the prospect of posting a certain number of times here truly exciting....
 Besides, its like a birthday, you don't relish the fact you're getting older, but you might as well remark on the fact!

Quote

Quote
3. People posting stuff for the sake of it, that doesn't actually say anything.
Well that's highly subjective. Communication is always good. I'm surprised people are so anal about this crap-flooding BS. Personally, I think it livens things up a bit. I mean, A.org is full of wacky characters, many of which I strongly disagree with, while others I'm indifferent with, but I'd never want to see anyone be removed. If someone's a goof, well, the world is full of goofs and that tells me that even goofs have a role to play.

Again I agree with you, but there is a line between someone having different views (politics is often the case), and someone who makes the whole AOrg experience less enjoyable through personal attacks, trolling, etc etc

I personally find the differing views, the odd subtle bit of trolling from people who usually talk sense, the occasional joke and pi$$take quite enjoyable, but its when someones sole purpose to troll...

Anyway, as has been said, lets lead by example. Now if only all the right-wingers hadn't fled the DMZ under a socialist barrage we could get some real discussions going! :-D
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Methuselas on January 27, 2004, 03:41:56 AM
@Glaucus

For once, Mike, you and I are in COMPLETE agreeance with one another. It's nice to have the simple fun in the forums. Granted, it CAN get out of hand, but I don't think that we should completely do away with it.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Matt_H on January 27, 2004, 04:28:13 AM
Quote
by alx on 2004/1/26 16:59:00

@mikeymike

I never said anything about moderating comments up

I think that's a good idea, actually.

Anyone remember clickBOOM's Portal service? Any user had the option to mark a poll/list for deletion. After three marks, it was automatically deleted.

Something similar could work here. An "Alert!" button at the bottom of posts. Members with a longer chronological presence  on A.Org would get more power. IE, someone who's been here 6 months has 1 vote. Year-old members could get 2 votes, 1.5 years, 3 votes, etc. After something like 10 alert votes, a post would automatically be deleted or reported directly to moderators for a decision. The number of alert votes on a post should be kept private to avoid swaying opinions - each member should independently come to a conclusion.

Safeguards to prevent abuse would be the hard part...

My 2ยข :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Damion on January 27, 2004, 05:32:39 AM
I agree with what Ilwrath said...things will
eventually settle back down.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Hooligan_DCS on January 27, 2004, 05:40:43 AM
Rename "Talk-About" to "Mud-Corner" and leave it there.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 05:51:50 AM
Quote

-D- wrote:
I agree with what Ilwrath said...things will
eventually settle back down.
Yeah, me too. Funny how I missed his post first time around. Everything he said sounds about right to me.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 06:05:40 AM
Quote
1) refining the rules?
2) Getting stricter? (good idea or bad?)
3) Re-hashing the forums into a new schema to include more forums for personal discussion?
Well, I think someone else already suggested it, but I like the idea of patrolling all the forums except for the Talk-About forum more strictly. The way I see it, the Talk-About (or DMZ as I still think of it as) is not really about anything at all. Talking about the Mars lander in the Talk-About forum is as relevant as talking about the color of air or making fun of Michael Jackson. However, posting about smoking dope in the Amiga Hardware forum is obviously unwanted and justifiably deleted or moved to the Talk-About.

Btw Wayne, I think you mentioned in another thread that the Talk-About forum has "ballooned", out growing all other forums. I think it's a clear sign that people are more interested in socializing, as there's really few new things to discuss about Amigas any more. I think it's important for all of us in the community to just stay in touch, even if all we talk about is crap. I think the Amiga.org community has a spirit of it's own and I'm not sure it really needs to be overly regulated. I think this is the easiest and most likely to succeed scenario.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: whabang on January 27, 2004, 07:24:01 AM
I think that one of the causes to the degeneration of the DMZ is athat we're loosing regulars - fast.
T-bone is gone (what happened to him anyway?), EyeAm(sp?)  is gone, Mips is gone, Coder, Rodney, Kronos, and several others atr rarely here anymore.
This means that the discussions cannot be the same anymore; there are new kids on the block.

I think that most people are fed up with the political discussions for a while. This has allways come and gone in waves, all depending on the foreign politics of the US. :-) Those discussions allways ended up in a big argument between Glaccus, KennyR and Iamaboringperson anyway...

I think that a small ammount of crapflooding should be allowed (WEEEEEEEEKEEEEEND!!! :-P), but during the last few weeks things has turned to the extreme; threads like "sumner7's picture paradise" is kinda rediculous(sp?).

I think that the moderator's should use their common sense and shut down that totally lack substance. Filling double-post threads are fun (gotta love Punkie's sis! :-D), but they quickly take up a lot of space. Pointless flamewars should be stopped at once.

In general I think that a little more active moderation could help, allthough I'm sure that the problem will go away after a while.

Whew! That has to be the longes thread I've typed for a while!
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 27, 2004, 10:15:18 AM
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Quote
1) refining the rules?
2) Getting stricter? (good idea or bad?)
3) Re-hashing the forums into a new schema to include more forums for personal discussion?
Well, I think someone else already suggested it, but I like the idea of patrolling all the forums except for the Talk-About forum more strictly. The way I see it, the Talk-About (or DMZ as I still think of it as) is not really about anything at all. Talking about the Mars lander in the Talk-About forum is as relevant as talking about the color of air or making fun of Michael Jackson. However, posting about smoking dope in the Amiga Hardware forum is obviously unwanted and justifiably deleted or moved to the Talk-About.

Btw Wayne, I think you mentioned in another thread that the Talk-About forum has "ballooned", out growing all other forums. I think it's a clear sign that people are more interested in socializing, as there's really few new things to discuss about Amigas any more. I think it's important for all of us in the community to just stay in touch, even if all we talk about is crap. I think the Amiga.org community has a spirit of it's own and I'm not sure it really needs to be overly regulated. I think this is the easiest and most likely to succeed scenario.

  - Mike


Simple solution, 10 free posts per month, want any more and you have to pay a $5 subscription fee.

I'm gonna be really unpopular now :-(
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 27, 2004, 01:24:11 PM
Quote

redrumloa wrote:
I would have to guess that the 'anything goes' theme will be no more. Maybe changed to 'Any intelligent discussion' that is 1)In good taste, 2)legal, 3)Not for the sake only trolling alone. Maybe also add 4)Political arguements are allowed until they get unreasonably heated, at which time they will be closed.

 :-?
Sorry, I disagree with this fiercely. "Good taste", is probably the most subjective thing I've ever heard and to me that is a no-go for a policy. And for the second: legal? Well, everyone lives in a different country with a different law, so what's exactly legal?
And btw. wasn't trolling included in the policy? Just warn those who are only trolling, and let them at least say their word why they posted it, and if that just does not make sense as well and they continue trolling, ban them.
and this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14609&forum=1&start=50&74) thread really ended up in a troll thread.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 27, 2004, 02:03:39 PM
Quote
Sorry, I disagree with this fiercely. "Good taste", is probably the most subjective thing I've ever heard and to me that is a no-go for a policy.

Well look at it like this.  You rely on the judgement of the Amiga.org staff to moderate these forums.  If that didn't happen, only trolls would come here.  You're relying on our judgement already, so "good taste" is nothing new.  I've told users to remove avatars on the grounds of "good taste" and that was hardly controversial.

Quote
And for the second: legal?  Well, everyone lives in a different country with a different law, so what's exactly legal?

Eye of the beholder.  Ie. the moderators.

Quote
And btw. wasn't trolling included in the policy?

Yes, it is redundant.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 27, 2004, 02:15:08 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote
And for the second: legal?  Well, everyone lives in a different country with a different law, so what's exactly legal?

Eye of the beholder.  Ie. the moderators.
hmm, so I better shut up about politicians goin' to whores, since many moderators come from countries where such is forbidden
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: redrumloa on January 27, 2004, 02:19:47 PM
Quote
hmm, so I better shut up about politicians goin' to whores, since many moderators come from countries where such is forbidden


No, no the moderators would only do so in extreme situations I'm sure. There has to be some level of moderation or anarchy will reign.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 27, 2004, 02:28:40 PM
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote
And for the second: legal?  Well, everyone lives in a different country with a different law, so what's exactly legal?

Eye of the beholder.  Ie. the moderators.
hmm, so I better shut up about politicians goin' to whores, since many moderators come from countries where such is forbidden

You didn't really take in what I said, did you? :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 27, 2004, 02:36:08 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote
And for the second: legal?  Well, everyone lives in a different country with a different law, so what's exactly legal?

Eye of the beholder.  Ie. the moderators.
hmm, so I better shut up about politicians goin' to whores, since many moderators come from countries where such is forbidden

You didn't really take in what I said, did you? :-)
Sorry, next time I shall listen to you moderators. :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 03:58:36 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Simple solution, 10 free posts per month, want any more and you have to pay a $5 subscription fee.

I'm gonna be really unpopular now :-(
It would kill A.org over night, as far as I'm concerned.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 04:00:40 PM
Quote
hmm, so I better shut up about politicians goin' to whores, since many moderators come from countries where such is forbidden
Yeah, but you can still talk about whores!  ;-)

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 27, 2004, 04:14:30 PM
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Simple solution, 10 free posts per month, want any more and you have to pay a $5 subscription fee.
I'm gonna be really unpopular now :-(
It would kill A.org over night, as far as I'm concerned.
  - Mike

The upshot those is that we'd end up $5 better off! :-D
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 27, 2004, 04:17:55 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Simple solution, 10 free posts per month, want any more and you have to pay a $5 subscription fee.
I'm gonna be really unpopular now :-(
It would kill A.org over night, as far as I'm concerned.
  - Mike

The upshot those is that we'd end up $5 better off! :-D


Heheheh... but that's quite sad, Mike that you are not prepared to pay (even a tiny sum) for Amiga.org!
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: mikeymike on January 27, 2004, 06:39:19 PM
Quote
Heheheh... but that's quite sad, Mike that you are not prepared to pay (even a tiny sum) for Amiga.org!

Hey, I should be paid for my services! :-D
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 27, 2004, 06:54:49 PM
Quote

mikeymike wrote:
Quote
Heheheh... but that's quite sad, Mike that you are not prepared to pay (even a tiny sum) for Amiga.org!

Hey, I should be paid for my services! :-D


My comment was aimed at Glacious-Mike not you :-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: smithy on January 27, 2004, 06:55:36 PM
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Quote
1. People using HTML in their posts - often enormous images, which also appear in people's replies to the offending post.
Why shouldn't people take advantage of the World Wide Web when posting on a web forum?!? Perhaps we should turn A.org into a telnet/gopher server then?!?


No, but I don't particularly want to open a thread and find the page contains multiple links to enormous images on other servers and are displayed many times because people include them in their replies.  It messes up the layout of the site when large images when people include them in their replies.


Quote

Quote
2. People posting garbage like "this is my 4000th post". I think this is the worst kind of crapflooding.
It's called a right of passage. It's goofy, no argument there, but at the same time it's good to (self) honor those long time users of Amiga.org, with which without there would not BE an Amiga.org.


No it's not.  Surely any right of passage is how long you have been on the site, and how much of a contribution you make.  Getting a high post-count is NOT any indication of status or a right of passage.

Quote

Quote
3. People posting stuff for the sake of it, that doesn't actually say anything.
Well that's highly subjective. Communication is always good. I'm surprised people are so anal about this crap-flooding BS. Personally, I think it livens things up a bit. I mean, A.org is full of wacky characters, many of which I strongly disagree with, while others I'm indifferent with, but I'd never want to see anyone be removed. If someone's a goof, well, the world is full of goofs and that tells me that even goofs have a role to play.


It's boring to see crapflooding - for example, I've seen threads where people post nothing but smilies.  It doesn't add character, it's not charming and it doesn't say anything.  It's a waste of my bandwidth.  Incidentally, it's interesting that you, with your 2,500+ posts, are defending the right to posts that "liven" things up (i.e. crapflooding).

[/quote]
Quote
2. Politics. Apart from "FluffyMcDeath"'s never ending and tiresome crusade against the United States (this loon also used to have a picture of a 20-year old Saddam Hussein on his avatar).
One man's loon is another man's straight talker. However it seems you're perfectly fine with personal attacks (perhaps you should have made that point number 3). How charming.
[/quote]

What I wrote is more interesting than yet another (yawn) anti-American tirade - and these aren't one-off posts, it seems to be campaign.  First it bored me, then it irrirated me, now it makes me pissed off.  To the point where I wrote what impression he gives me.  If someone sets out on this kind of campaign on an computer website than what else do they expect when people get annoyed about it.

Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Im>bE on January 27, 2004, 07:08:12 PM

My idea on how to get rid of posts
that are made solely to increase post count:

When there is a rank and post count on every user
it is like saying: "THIS IS A COMPETITION. Can you beat your friends?..."
And you -WILL- get fanatics who post tons of 5 second rubbish,
so only solution is to remove rank and post count,
then many fanatics would probably have no reason to post rubbish anymore.

-I- personally dont care about the counts or ranks,
but everybody is different, so there will always be fanatics.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Glaucus on January 27, 2004, 07:34:01 PM
Quote
My idea on how to get rid of posts
that are made solely to increase post count:
How many people here are obsessed with their post count? Not many, you could probably count them all on your index finger. I don't think we need to invent an elaborate safe-guard against such a "threat" to the Amiga.org community.

  - Mike
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 27, 2004, 08:45:43 PM
Quote

Glaucus wrote:
Quote
hmm, so I better shut up about politicians goin' to whores, since many moderators come from countries where such is forbidden
Yeah, but you can still talk about whores!  ;-)

  - Mike
Nope, we aren't allowed to talk about anything that's forbidden in most countries, as well as we may not talk about marijuana and gay marriage.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 27, 2004, 08:52:45 PM
since when have we not been able to talk about marijuana and gay marriage?
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 27, 2004, 08:59:35 PM
Quote

redrumloa wrote:
I would have to guess that the 'anything goes' theme will be no more. Maybe changed to 'Any intelligent discussion' that is 1)In good taste, 2)legal, 3)Not for the sake only trolling alone. Maybe also add 4)Political arguements are allowed until they get unreasonably heated, at which time they will be closed.

if this is interpreted literally by a moderator who lives in a country where it's forbidden
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 27, 2004, 09:17:24 PM
Quote

smithy wrote:
I don't post on a.org very often, but I do read it everyday.  What annoys me most about the forums is:

1.  People using HTML in their posts - often enormous images, which also appear in people's replies to the offending post.
An image says more than a thousand words. Now thousand words, that'd be tiresome!
No, I like images, as long as they add something, something interesting.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 27, 2004, 09:59:05 PM
I just wish people would stop feeding the trolls... :-(
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: iamaboringperson on January 28, 2004, 12:06:25 AM
Quote
1) refining the rules?
1)Sure, however the rules are fine for the most part. Enforcing the rules would be better IMO

Quote
2) Getting stricter? (good idea or bad?
Very very very very good idea :)

Quote
3) Re-hashing the forums into a new schema to include more forums for personal discussion?
Nah, pointless :)

Quote
My idea is NOT to stifle discussion, but to make it more enjoyable and more.... intelligent
That's exactly what I want to see
I'm sick of seeing spamming


Perhaps here is a good idea:

Filter out <21 y/o's by asking a question that they can't answer honestly (during the new user account screen)
e.g.
During the early 80's which Atari/Intellivision game did you play most often?

If they can't answer that, they can't be old enough to post in sensible stuff talk-about

:)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: iamaboringperson on January 28, 2004, 12:09:09 AM
Quote
There has to be some level of moderation or anarchy will reign.
That's exactly the problem some aren't getting :(
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 28, 2004, 12:20:24 AM
Quote

iamaboringperson wrote:
During the early 80's which Atari/Intellivision game did you play most often?
:)
Naah, rather a question like: what's the most famous book Dante wrote? (answer: Utopia, damn, I can't get those characters upside-down)
Or what is the latin name for donkey? (answer: Equus Asinus) or that of a horse? (answer: Equus Caballus if I remember it well)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: odin on January 28, 2004, 12:26:44 AM
Quote
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote
iamaboringperson wrote:
During the early 80's which Atari/Intellivision game did you play most often?:)
Naah, rather a question like: what's the most famous book Dante wrote? (Utopia it is, damn, I can't get those characters upside-down)

Google will find any and all answers.....
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on January 28, 2004, 12:29:26 AM
Quote

odin wrote:
Quote
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Quote
iamaboringperson wrote:
During the early 80's which Atari/Intellivision game did you play most often?:)
Naah, rather a question like: what's the most famous book Dante wrote? (Utopia it is, damn, I can't get those characters upside-down)

Google will find any and all answers.....
Yup, so these questions should be asked personally, like an interview.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 28, 2004, 12:35:50 AM
Nice ideas guys, but a little impractical don't you think?

How about asking people to type Speelgoedmannetje's nick without looking it up or cutting and pasting ;-)
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: iamaboringperson on January 28, 2004, 12:38:15 AM
People should provide proof of ID while joining (or just proof of age)

Or perhaps that should only be for talk-alot
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: MarkTime on January 28, 2004, 01:38:18 AM
Quote
Once upon a time, Amiga.org's DMZ was a place of lively and intelligent discussion which actually BROUGHT people back to the site on a daily basis. Now the same people who used to post such great inciteful posts have seemingly disappeared.


gosh Wayne, I'm embarassed.

Listen, why don't you just ask me to come back and see what comes of it?

...but seriously...I think there are still a lot of intelligent people in these forum's...just not a lot of intelligent things to say..(how 'bout dem bears, comes to mind).

the problem is NOT trolls.  The fact is, the old community had trolls.  the bus arch troll...George Noel...back in the day Tim Rue was a troll GOD....now he's so much calmer, but I miss those old days.

we do need a growing community...now that genesi has moved on to morphos-news.de and amiga, inc. seems dead...we are going back into a lull period.

c'mon aros guys...your turn to save us.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: that_punk_guy on January 28, 2004, 01:41:11 AM
Quote

Cyberus wrote:
Nice ideas guys, but a little impractical don't you think?

How about asking people to type Speelgoedmannetje's nick without looking it up or cutting and pasting ;-)


I can do that! :-D
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: BouncingAyatollah on January 28, 2004, 04:52:08 AM
Why not just a "trashbin" thread? Crap posts get moved there, make it read only, a script cleans it up every week/fortnight/month?

Users get x strikes and you're out (where x 1 > average of moderators' temperance), i.e. more actively enforce the "we give warnings" part. An invalid/continually bouncing e-mail address gets a PM, if a PM is not answered in y days, then a public reply, if no response after z days, account suspended (suspended in case user on holiday etc.) After final quarantine period account deleted.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: bloodline on January 28, 2004, 12:09:35 PM
Quote

MarkTime wrote:
Quote
Once upon a time, Amiga.org's DMZ was a place of lively and intelligent discussion which actually BROUGHT people back to the site on a daily basis. Now the same people who used to post such great inciteful posts have seemingly disappeared.


gosh Wayne, I'm embarassed.

Listen, why don't you just ask me to come back and see what comes of it?

...but seriously...I think there are still a lot of intelligent people in these forum's...just not a lot of intelligent things to say..(how 'bout dem bears, comes to mind).

the problem is NOT trolls.  The fact is, the old community had trolls.  the bus arch troll...George Noel...back in the day Tim Rue was a troll GOD....now he's so much calmer, but I miss those old days.

we do need a growing community...now that genesi has moved on to morphos-news.de and amiga, inc. seems dead...we are going back into a lull period.

c'mon aros guys...your turn to save us.


Ok, then... everyones first 5 posts a month should be AROS related; praise, critisize, bug/feature report, bug/feature request, user support, development help... etc... if that doesn't start up interesting (for me at least) disscusion then nothing will :-D
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: Cyberus on January 28, 2004, 12:29:00 PM
The only thing about the email addresses in the profile, is that I changed mine to a spoof one, because my email was getting overloaded with spam as a result, about ten emails a day.....
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: jamesm on January 28, 2004, 12:40:08 PM
Whirlpool (http://whirlpool.net.au) has a good forum setup.
Title: Re: Fixing the problems with the forums and trolls
Post by: CU_AMiGA on January 30, 2004, 02:26:13 PM
Like someone said earlier, i think the best discission would be to have a "trashbin, goofing around"  thread so that people could post crap there. The posts on there could be deleted every week or so, meaning that the storage won't be so large. I am saying this cos i feel that i have also played a part in this fracas. Sorry.