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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: amigakit on May 17, 2011, 05:47:21 PM
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AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035), the long awaited Classic Amiga system update is now available to purchase.
It updates your Classic Amiga equipped with CyberStorm PPC or Blizzard PPC to the latest AmigaOS 4.1 (Update 2) standard and builds on the foundations of AmigaOS 4.0. This is the first major update for Classic Amigas for three years.
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/AmigaOS_4.1_Classic2_sm.jpg)
Supplied on Amiga CD with Boot Installation Floppy Disk, two printed manuals and box.
Notably this latest system software provides support for ZorRAM Memory Expansion (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=958) due to the extra memory burdens of modern applications.
Amingst the many improvements, AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035) also supports Warp3D hardware acceleration support for Radeon, Voodoo 3/4/5 and Cybervision / Blizzardvision PPC (stable beta version for Permedia2-based cards).
Elbox hardware such as Mediator PCI busboard and FastATA are supported. FastATA now has native driver support.
This update is the result of many months of hard work to bring new life to Classic Amigas. Special thanks go to Hyperion Entertainment, Carl Moppett, Darren Eveland, Steven Solie, Michael Boehmer, Elbox Computer, ACube Systems, Martin Merz and the many beta testers.
Where To Buy:
AmigaKit.com (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035)
Alinea Computer (Germany)
ACube Systems (Italy)
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Yes, many thanks to Hyperion Entertainment, Carl Moppett, Darren Eveland, Steven Solie, Michael Boehmer, etc...
But...I don't have a CSPPC :(
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This product is like a broken pencil...
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Thanks Amigakit, order placed :)
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Thanks Amigakit, order placed :)
Some more information on the Blog site:
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz
:)
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Damn, and I already sold my CSPPC and BPPC!
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Great news. I will order as soon as Im satisfied with my OS3.9 installation. Too bad there is no upgrade offer for 4.0 users. I bought OS4 last year but never got round to really using it. And now Im forced again to pay 120 euro :/
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Congratulations for Amiga users with Classic computers, now you can enjoy the new OS characteristics.
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This product is like a broken pencil...
? I don't understand your metaphor.
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mmm. i think im going to skip it for the time being. too busy with aros68k now as well. might even consider selling the csppc, never got warm with it except for fast scsi.
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Congratulations for Amiga users with Classic computers, now you can enjoy the new OS characteristics.
Erm... not quite, you forget to mention that would only be Classic Amiga users who happen to own a PPC equipped Amiga + GFX card... ;)
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I sold my BPPC a few years ago and regret it now.
I would like a CSPPC for my A3000 just so I can do a bit of OS4.1 programming though.
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mmm. i think im going to skip it for the time being. too busy with aros68k now as well. might even consider selling the csppc, never got warm with it except for fast scsi.
How much do you want for the CSPPC?
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Great news. I will order as soon as Im satisfied with my OS3.9 installation.
Yes, Great News! I'm still not satisfied with my OS3.1 installation, and I've been working on it since 1994, but I suppose time moves on and I need to order. Sometimes 'two more weeks' actually gets here.
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Erm... not quite, you forget to mention that would only be Classic Amiga users who happen to own a PPC equipped Amiga + GFX card... ;)
On this side of the pond, the remaining Classic Amiga user(s) generally do, at least the ones I know.
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? I don't understand your metaphor.
Pointless ;-)
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On this side of the pond, the remaining Classic Amiga user(s) generally do, at least the ones I know.
Ahh... but over the water here, most don't (even the ones I knew when the Amiga was still popular never owned one), they were too much of being skinflints to part with 500 quid plus to ever buy one... :(
Though oddly enough they were happy to spend that money on a PC or MAC but most now regret it, cos it costs them an arm & leg to try and get back into the Amiga scene these days via eBay... :)
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Pointless ;-)
I suppose it is pointless if you don't own a classic Amiga equipped with a PPC card, or if you're generally not interested in running OS4 on a classic machine. The same comment could be made by anyone about anything they're not interested in.
But, thankfully, there are still some classic Amiga users who will welcome this news. I don't think anyone is under any illusions about classic Amigas being the way forwards for the future, but some of us (me included) just like to keep the old girls going, for no other reasons than because it's fun and because we can.
Congratulations to everyone involved in this development - OS4.1 for classic machines is a very welcome update.
AH
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How much do you want for the CSPPC?
have not made up my mind yet, i need it for betatesting aros currently (it behaves differently than, say, csmk1, so..). but i will let you know if i decide to part. be warned though, it is a 150mhz version, the slowest one, and i would try to get as much as i can, the current circumstances considered..
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Yes, Great News! I'm still not satisfied with my OS3.1 installation, and I've been working on it since 1994, but I suppose time moves on and I need to order. Sometimes 'two more weeks' actually gets here.
;) fun, but please understand Im a 'returning' Amiga user and have just done so since last year.. I have spent a LOT of money on my classic system, thats not without a reason Im sure you'll understand.
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On this side of the pond, the remaining Classic Amiga user(s) generally do, at least the ones I know.
I live on this side of the pond and do not have a PPC amiga.
The fastest processors I have are 68040s.
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great & welcome news:banana:
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Noooo, dragging me back into this damn thing when I was about to sell me tower.
:insane:
EDIT "me tower"!@#? Oh hell I'm talking like Franko now.
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And now Im forced again to pay 120 euro :/
Who is forcing you?
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so what advantages does 4.1 classic have over 3.x? I think i remember before that someone said 4.0 classic made the system slower? Not sure.
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Who is forcing you?
future software support
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Hi all
If anyone have interest, my Blizzard PPC for running OS4.1 is for sale yet, until end of may:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=638579#post638579
Thanks!
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future software support
If you are going to keep your Amiga 1200 you dont have to worry about.
I mean, BPPC and even so much praised CSPPC is very very slow for modern software (Battle for Wesnoth, OWB, MPlayer and many more) and on the other hand 68k community is still so strong there will be new software next ten years.
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Yeah true. But still, I would like to support Hyperion and OS4. Ofcourse, I am not really being forced. I just stated this coz I would expect some sort of update policy for registered OS4 users.
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? I don't understand your metaphor.
I don't think he specifically means a Pencil. I think he's referring to damaged stationery in general.
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future software support
Look how much software has been released for OS4 since it became available. Discounting ports, at this rate your PPC hardware will fail before anything comes out.
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@amigakit
So I assume making a dual boot script like this one:
http://aminet.net/docs/help/Dualbooting_EN.pdf
Will still work?
I want to run AOS 4 on the b-vision SCSI and 3.9 from the A1200 IDE
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I want to run AOS 4 on the b-vision SCSI and 3.9 from the A1200 IDE
You can't cause OS4.1 (still) doesn't support BPPC's SCSI bus.
You can only use the opposite alas running OS4.1 from A1200's IDE and OS3.9 from BPPC's SCSI
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You can't cause OS4.1 (still) doesn't support BPPC's SCSI bus.
You can only use the opposite alas running OS4.1 from A1200's IDE and OS3.9 from BPPC's SCSI
I totally don't understand what you've just tried to say.
Um, and I think I mis-stated b-vision SCSI in the 1st place to confuse it further. I mean using the Blizzard SCSI, or the blizzppc.device. found on the 603e+
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Ok I think I got it now. I can not believe this, that sucks, why?
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Dude, I would just sell that A1200PPCT of yours. I know they are not easy to come by but, with the money you could buy a cheap second hand Amigaone if you really want to run OS4 and pocket the rest.
I totally don't understand what you've just tried to say.
Um, and I think I mis-stated b-vision SCSI in the 1st place to confuse it further. I mean using the Blizzard SCSI, or the blizzppc.device. found on the 603e+
EDIT
Ok I think I got it now. I can not believe this, that sucks, why?
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Erm... not quite, you forget to mention that would only be Classic Amiga users who happen to own a PPC equipped Amiga + GFX card... ;)
Well, Frank, we have to cheer the people up, these details, well, ..... I forgot them.
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But... still I don't understand if more PCI cards are supported.
Precisely something about the Spider USB Card....
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A classic amiga with os4.1 is a stepback in my opinion, 603 or 604 cant run many of the "recent" modern applications of os4.1 or morphos, real amigas are powerfull with 040 ir 060 with all the classic applications and games.
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It almost feels like it is just there for the technicality of saying it is "real" Amiga because it can technically load on an Amiga produced by Commodore. Well, if you count using the Commodore Amiga as a power supply as the OS running on it.
Am I mistaken on the situation? What part of the original Amiga does this run on? As opposed to the PPC Accelerator and 3rd party graphics card.
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It almost feels like it is just there for the technicality of saying it is "real" Amiga because it can technically load on an Amiga produced by Commodore. Well, if you count using the Commodore Amiga as a power supply as the OS running on it.
Am I mistaken on the situation? What part of the original Amiga does this run on? As opposed to the PPC Accelerator and 3rd party graphics card.
Blah, blah, who cares?
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But... still I don't understand if more PCI cards are supported.
I agree, there should be more PCI cards supported under Classic OS4.1, but Hyperion won't allow the Mediator DMA system to work under OS4.x, as they don't like the way it works, if I understand the few words I've had cast my way by Hans and Thomas Joerg-Frieden. (Spelling almost correct I think)
I believe they could allow/support it to work, but they just won't !!
Precisely something about the Spider USB Card....
Why they can't work out a way to implement a PCI USB card/device driver system of their own, to plug into the Mediator, with the help of Elbox I just don't understand.
Why isn't there an upgrade option for people who bought Classic OS4.0, seeing as it's only a further development of the Classic OS4.x which was the worst Workbench release ever, in my opinion.
Until Hyperion released Classic OS4.0, I had never regretted buying an Amiga OS, but they never improved on its initial release by very much, and then they abandoned those who bought it, to suffer with it without any real comeback.
I've hardly ever used Classic OS4.0, as it is such a poor Workbench release, and you can't use much of the hardware that you can use on OS3.9, which you can't on Classic OS4.x.
As yet, I don't see much improvement in OS4.1 that would encourage me to pay the best part of £100 to see a more recent Workbench screen, nicer font system, etc, but not allow me to use the majority of the software/hardware I use under OS3.9.
When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt to migrate from OS3.9 to Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it. There are some benefits, but at considerable cost, outweighed by the drawbacks.
I did ask Hyperion if they had approached any manufacturers about providing new Amiga PPC hardware for Classic OS4.1 as providing an OS requires people with the hardware to be able to use it. However, the basis of the reply was why would they be interested in providing or asking manufacturers if they were interested in manufacturing that type of hardware, as Hyperion do not do hardware, like I don't know that.
Hyperion just seem to be on the 'gravy train' at the moment, and once they have enough 'gravy' (money) from the Classic users they may well dump us yet again.
They (Hyperion) offer very little support, and the same goes for ACube, no FAQ either, and where there was mention of SATA PCI cards on the Hyperion BLOG no sign of it in the final Classic OS4.1 release.
I'll stick with my OS3.9 installation at the moment, rather than waste £100 on Classic OS4.1. If reports of its usability change for the better in the future then I may reconsider my position but at present that's my decision.
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Noooo, dragging me back into this damn thing when I was about to sell me tower.
:insane:
EDIT "me tower"!@#? Oh hell I'm talking like Franko now.
Me had noticed that (and not just you)... :lol:
Hopefully one day I'll have you all gibbering like meself... ;)
PS: It's painless, You only have to start worrying when you start talking to Squirrels and they begin to answer back... :eek:
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A classic amiga with os4.1 is a stepback in my opinion, 603 or 604 cant run many of the "recent" modern applications of os4.1 or morphos, real amigas are powerfull with 040 ir 060 with all the classic applications and games.
Well, you are probably right. There are a few apps that run and are interesting thought: MorphOS-OWB and SabreMSN.
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96Mb minimum RAM required!?
Surely this is a misprint.
OS3.9 can boot in 2Mb, why does OS4.1 require nearly 50 times as much!?
If I wanted to run bloatware I wouldn't use an Amiga.
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Well PPC executables are larger than 68k ones. New kernel, memory system, Intuition, new icon format, larger resolutions, backdrop images, etc etc....all take up more memory.
The Blizzard PPC can take up to 256MB of physical ram - the Cyberstorm PPC 128MB, and with additional memory via disk-paging or zorro 3 memory boards, I don't see it as a problem.
If I run OS 3.9 on a high colour screen using a graphics card I'm also never going to be able to run it in 2MB.
You can't compare it with a stock OS 3.9 install with no graphics card.
We are pushing the limits of the Classic architecture for sure - trying to get the most we can out of it while providing the latest version of the Operating system and providing some extra fun for Classic PPC users and the capability to run all the AmigaOS 4.1 applications.
If you want to run a pure classic system using only 2MB of ram there are other alternatives like a Minmig or stock A1200, CD32, etc.
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Well PPC executables are larger than 68k ones. New kernel, memory system, Intuition, new icon format, larger resolutions, backdrop images, etc etc....all take up more memory.
Don't forget the emulator you'll need to run Amiga software.
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Don't forget the emulator you'll need to run Amiga software.
Correct, petunia can take up some memory like 5-10MB. But you can disable that if you wish and just run with the integrated interpretive emulation. Although that also requires memory.
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Well, you are probably right. There are a few apps that run and are interesting thought: MorphOS-OWB and SabreMSN.
Then better use a 2nd hand macmini or powermac and leave the amiga for the real amiga thing.
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96Mb minimum RAM required!?
Surely this is a misprint.
OS3.9 can boot in 2Mb, why does OS4.1 require nearly 50 times as much!?
If I wanted to run bloatware I wouldn't use an Amiga.
OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50... As has been said before, there's a lot more involved in OS4 - it's made to be used at high resolution in truecolour modes, it has things like the TCP/IP, USB support and the likes running from boot, and things like the the 68k emulation module and a lot of the hardware extraction stuff all takes up memory. That's what it takes to add modern features - why else would you use OS4 if OS3.9's features are all you need?
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Great for classic Amiga users with a PPC board :D
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I agree, there should be more PCI cards supported under Classic OS4.1, but Hyperion won't allow the Mediator DMA system to work under OS4.x, as they don't like the way it works, if I understand the few words I've had cast my way by Hans and Thomas Joerg-Frieden. (Spelling almost correct I think)
I believe they could allow/support it to work, but they just won't !!
Why they can't work out a way to implement a PCI USB card/device driver system of their own, to plug into the Mediator, with the help of Elbox I just don't understand.
Why isn't there an upgrade option for people who bought Classic OS4.0, seeing as it's only a further development of the Classic OS4.x which was the worst Workbench release ever in my opinion.
Until Hyperion released Classic OS4.0, I had never regretted buying an Amiga OS, but they never improved on its initial release by very much, and then they abandoned those who bought it, to suffer with it without any real comeback.
I've hardly ever used Classic OS4.0, as it is such a poor Workbench release, and you can't use much of the hardware that you can use on OS3.9 on Classic OS4.x.
As yet, I don't see much improvement in OS4.1 that would encourage me to pay the best part of £100 to see a more recent Workbench screen, nicer font system, etc, but not allow me to use the majority of the software/hardware I use uner OS3.9.
When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it.
Hyperion just seem to be on the 'gravy train' at the moment, and once they have enough 'gravy' (money) from the Classic users they may well dump us yet again.
They (Hyperion) offer very little support, and the same goes for ACube, no FAQ either, and where there was mention of SATA PCI cards on the Hyperion BLOG no sign of it in the final Classic OS4.1 release.
I'll stick with my OS3.9 installation at the moment, rather than waste £100 on Classic OS4.1. If reports of it usability change in the future I may reconsider my position but at present that's my decision.
Interesting post above. I was just inches away from ordering AmigaOS4.1 for Classic last night, while I was ordering my A604 memory expansion from AmigaKit, even though I am a die hard MorphOS2.x user. MorphOS no longer supports the Phase5 PowerUP boards, as the Development Team has shut down the keyfile registration server long ago and no new work after version 1.4.5 of MorphOS for PowerUP is likely to ever happen, so I thought maybe I would give AmigaOS4.1 for Classic a try. I strongly disagree with many of Hyperion's past business practices and current policies, but I thought I would put my personal feelings aside and spend the money to finally run AmigaOS4.1 on that expensive Phase5 hardware that I bought so many years ago.
Just before committing to click on the buy button, I came to my senses and stopped myself. After all, Hyperion had not even provided a clear list of features for AmigaOS4.1 for Classic and I had not yet seen any reviews about its performance. Then the thoughts about Hyperion and how they operate came back and convinced me that I had made the right choice to NOT purchase AmigaOS4.1 for Classic (at least until I have more time to find out more about it).
So, for all of you who have purchased it, I hope you will use this thread, or any other thread, to give people sitting on the fence the information needed to make a decision.
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ive not read the thread, but hyperion not supporting elbox hacky mediator pseudo dma is due to technical reasons i suspect. its not ill will. the benchmarks (the quake demos and compositing) are though cerfully choosen to expose certain aspects where applications actually gain some speed, i suppose. for instance as where compositing on redeon lets the system look fast although accessed through 7mb/s zorro bus, whereas on the other hand the direct bus of p5 gfx cards lets you play framebuffer/non opengl games faster.
i think one should wait unbiased reviews, as well.
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Glad you found my comments about Classic OS4.1 noteworthy.
I really don't like to have a go at Hyperion or Classic OS4.1, as I have done, but their actions, or lack of action, and ethics concern me, and not in a good way.
I've tried to keep my OS3.9 Amiga system running on as daily a basis as possible, within the constraints of the hardware, and software's capabilities, but OS4.x so far offers me very very little benefit, and so very many drawbacks that the choice is simple - spend my money on something else for my 68k/PPC Amiga that is actually useful.
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Glad you found my comments about Classic OS4.1 noteworthy.
I really don't like to have a go at Hyperion or Classic OS4.1, as I have done, but their actions, or lack of action, and ethics concern me, and not in a good way.
I've tried to keep my OS3.9 Amiga system running on as daily a basis as possible, within the constraints of the hardware, and software's capabilities, but OS4.x so far offers me very very little benefit, and so very many drawbacks that the choice is simple - spend my money on something else for my 68k/PPC Amiga that is actually useful.
I did find your comments interesting, but made my decision not to purchase AmigaOS4.1 prior to reading your post. I share your concerns about Hyperion's ethical behavior.
I hate to say this, but I think the Amiga community would be better off if everyone involved with AmigaOS lost interest and went away, leaving it to the community to pick up the pieces and merge together all the best parts of AmigaOS3.x, AmigaOS4.x, AROS and MorphOS2.x, into one combined effort, without the ego's and disagreements and past hard feelings and mostly without the greed associated with a few people trying to squeeze a measly few remaining dollars/pounds/euros out of the last few hundred Amiga users on the planet.
AmigaOS will never be a viable commercial product again. Although I do not agree with people disregarding the rights of others, I do agree with their reasons for thinking that the people/companies still holding on to those intellectual rights, or claiming to own those rights, should let them expire and become public domain.
The Amiga community could hardly do worse than any of the "Real" IP owners have done since the demise of Commodore (or probably even better than Commodore did in its last years. The only group I really have respect for were working directly for and with Jay Miner).
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Hi,
My order will be there soon, will have to notify bank that I will be purchasing it. Last time I ordered from AmiKit, the bank notified me that an out of country order was going through that they stopped. These crooks out there make everyone's life harder, hangin is to good for them.
smerf
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Hi,
My order will be there soon, will have to notify bank that I will be purchasing it. Last time I ordered from AmiKit, the bank notified me that an out of country order was going through that they stopped. These crooks out there make everyone's life harder, hangin is to good for them.
smerf
Interestingly, I got that same call 5mins after I ordered it from AmigaKit. Have never gotten a call like that before. I almost thought it was a fishing attempt. It was automated asking me if I wished to allow the order to go through.
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Interestingly, I got that same call 5mins after I ordered it from AmigaKit. Have never gotten a call like that before. I almost thought it was a fishing attempt. It was automated asking me if I wished to allow the order to go through.
Hi,
No, it sure isn't a fishing attempt, I called the number on the back of my card and asked them what was going on. It seems that there is a Chinese gang out there and some Islamic terrorist trying to get funding anyway they can, so a lot of banks are watching all transactions and giving calls on all suspicious transactions.
smerf
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Why isn't there an upgrade option for people who bought Classic OS4.0
It isn't?
seeing as it's only a further development of the Classic OS4.x which was the worst Workbench release ever, in my opinion.
Maybe it should have been a *free* upgrade for existing users then...?
As yet, I don't see much improvement in OS4.1 that would encourage me to pay the best part of £100 to see a more recent Workbench screen, nicer font system, etc, but not allow me to use the majority of the software/hardware I use under OS3.9.
"Amiga compatibility" has always had a lower priority by the OS4 team, than adding new stuff in a new "un-Amiga" way. Of course this will show. Nobody can possibly be surprised.
When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it.
This is something new and different (like AROS and MorphOS) made by different people (some Linux Game Porting people) than those who once wrote Amiga OS, and they rebranded Amiga OS to "Classic", and their own OS to "AmigaOS". And that's it! Had you slapped on the "AmigaOS" sticker on MorphOS (*THANK GOD THEY DIDN'T*) you would also have gotten something new and different, but you would have experienced far, far better Amiga compatibility (and better performance, and better features as well). They are using the brand to cover up the product underneath it. I have always been surprised that there actually exists people who buys that, but I guess some people really likes to blindly follow a trade mark instead of actually reading up on all alternatives about what you will really get (what's under the hood, so to say) and make a rational decision based on that info. But who knows, they should be a happy bunch now, because it seems like these people will have a lot of new, interesting Amiga branded products to choose from, including tablets! And even an upcoming, new Amiga from Commodore! :-O
Hyperion just seem to be on the 'gravy train' at the moment, and once they have enough 'gravy' (money) from the Classic users they may well dump us yet again.
Won't be much money in this. Maybe their telephone bill went overdue...?
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>OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50...
I know, but 6Mb isn't necessary, it will indeed boot on a 2Mb system.
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This is something new and different (like AROS and MorphOS) made by different people (some Linux Game Porting people) than those who once wrote Amiga OS, and they rebranded Amiga OS to "Classic", and their own OS to "AmigaOS". And that's it! Had you slapped on the "AmigaOS" sticker on MorphOS (*THANK GOD THEY DIDN'T*) you would also have gotten something new and different, but you would have experienced far, far better Amiga compatibility (and better performance, and better features as well). They are using the brand to cover up the product underneath it. I have always been surprised that there actually exists people who buys that, but I guess some people really likes to blindly follow a trade mark instead of actually reading up on all alternatives about what you will really get (what's under the hood, so to say) and make a rational decision based on that info. But who knows, they should be a happy bunch now, because it seems like these people will have a lot of new, interesting Amiga branded products to choose from, including tablets! And even an upcoming, new Amiga from Commodore! :-O
This comment is nothing more than a comparison between the red and blue camps. You are obviously blue ;)
I think you should watch Dan Woods "why i use amiga in 2011". Great video. In my opinion he perfectly sums up the differences between the different camps. Red camp trying to remain as faithful to the original os as possible whereas the blue camp try to modernize things a bit. All i can say is each to their own.
Follow this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1RsvEm7UrU
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This comment is nothing more than a comparison between the red and blue camps.
Not really, it was a comparison between "Classic" and "Next Generation" (or "retro/vintage" and "continuation", or "680x0" and "alien architecture"), as a response to the statement:
"When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it."
There are apples and oranges. An apple can evolve over time as it grows (like when Microsoft updates Windows from Vista to 7; the apple changes and evolves, however it still tastes like an apple), but it won't "evolve" into an orange in a natural way. Perhaps some clever scientist could add something to an orange to make it taste somewhat like an apple, but you can't change the fact that it's still an orange and not an apple. Both are still tasty fruits though, that anyone interested in fruits can enjoy, albeit for somewhat different reasons.
Basically we have two things; the Amiga ("classic"), and the "Next Generation" efforts. And *there is a gap between them*! Apples and oranges.
If you are a classic user in 2011, you are into retro/vintage computing where it's important that *all* your old Amiga games and application runs, and runs flawlessly. In this case you'd probably be best off with a fast 060 accelerator fully expanded with memory (it would probably be better than a PPC PowerUP card; not that many important Classic SW titles were made anyway), various gizmo's from Jens Schönfeld, and a customary patched-up Amiga OS 3.x. This way you can fully enjoy your Amiga *exactly* the way you have always done. You should also keep an eye on the Natami project, which will be more relevant to you than any PowerUP card in existence.
If you are a "NG" user in 2011, you are an old Amigan that loves the Amiga way in which the system functions, you like the environment, etc. But you want to use it in a more modern way; you want the power to browse the web and use the Internet in a 2011 way, you want to enjoy 2011 level media files, etc. Sure, SW from Amiga "Classic" is nice to have (it would be kind of empty and pointless without it) and that is why the various "NG" options (MorphOS, AROS and OS4) tries to bridge over the gap in various ways and with various results. But a NG user is prepared to sacrifice *some* level of Amiga compatibility (as little as possible of course) on behalf of the new possibilities with powerful hardware and a new OS with better features. Hardware that is as modern, cheap and powerful as possible is more relevant than any PowerUP card in existence (the PowerUP is way to aged and weak to be used for serious 2011 NG stuff anyway).
"Nearly-Right" above expressed disappointment with the Amiga compatibility of OS4. And this is the whole essence of my post; it's *not* an evolved apple, no, like all other NG systems it is an orange with apple taste added to it. But unlike the other two oranges out there, Hyperion has put a sticker onto their orange, saying "This is an apple" as a way to sell more of it to apple lovers who doesn't bother examining further what's really underneath that sticker. But of course it won't change the fact that it is a NG OS and *not* a Classic OS. Hence Nearly-Right's disappointment; he wanted an evolved apple and wasn't really expecting an orange that *almost* tastes like an apple. I think he was a little fooled by the sticker. And if you are prepared to take the step away from apple land into orange land, you will actually find that the orange that tastes *the most* apple is in fact one that *does not* have a sticker saying "this is an apple" on it. Ironic, huh? ;)
Oh, did I forget to express my opinion that the PowerUP cards are kind of redundant in 2011, both for retro fans and for NG fans...? ;)
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@Takemehomegrandma,
I agree with most of your assessment, but would add that many Amiga users are excited about the Natami project precisely for the reasons you stated that they are disappointed with all of the NG Amiga-Like systems. They see the Natami as a chance for getting an evolved Amiga system, instead of, as you put it, an Orange with a bit, or a lot of Apple flavoring added. ( Edit: #2, In re-reading your post I think this is in line with what you were saying, as I somehow completely missed your inclusion of the Natami project in my first reading of your post, so I think we are on the same page.)
Now, it is yet to be seen if the Natami team will be successful in creating a system and OS improvements that will be generally accepted as an evolved Amiga system, but they appear to have a good chance of succeeding in that regard, if/when they can finally get their ambitious project completed.
Edit: I would also disagree that "Apple", the company, actually evolved their OS. They just did a more thorough and complete job of adding the Apple flavor to their Orange when they moved from MacOS9 to MacOSX.
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I stand corrected :)
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>OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50...
I know, but 6Mb isn't necessary, it will indeed boot on a 2Mb system.
If you were to strip out all of the new functionality and features of OS4.x it probably also would boot in a similar memory footprint. You can't boot MorphOS or AROS in 2MB either. Even if you could you wouldn't be too functional, and i dare say OS 3.9 isn't too functional either in 2MB.
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I would also disagree that "Apple", the company, actually evolved their OS. They just did a more thorough and complete job of adding the Apple flavor to their Orange when they moved from MacOS9 to MacOSX.
Yes indeed.
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Not really, it was a comparison between "Classic" and "Next Generation" (or "retro/vintage" and "continuation", or "680x0" and "alien architecture"), as a response to the statement:
"When Microsoft update Windows they usually leave most of the features of the last OS available as a compatability option for people who upgrade, but much of that is lost if you opt for Classic OS4.1, as far as I see it."
There are apples and oranges. An apple can evolve over time as it grows ....
Woah, hold on there, I'm smelling that smell again, is it burning rubber, no it's that smell I don't like called bull-$**T
Basically we have two things; the Amiga ("classic"), and the "Next Generation" efforts. And *there is a gap between them*! Apples and oranges.
Please don't talk in fruit-isms explaining to the little people what life is all about. I understand the big picture, and don't need any 'fruit-in-sense' to explain what you mean. Just stick to the facts, please. ;)
not that many important Classic SW titles were made anyway)
Oh, let me think, DPaint, PageStream - still in Amiga development, Lightwave, Imagine, CanDo, Directory Opus, ImageFX, ScanQuix, MakeCD, Perfect Paint, TV Paint, Photofolio, Broadcast Titler, Scala, Hollywood - still in Amiga development, IBrowse. I'm just brushing the surface here, but some of them are still very useful even in today's modern Hi-Ghz comupting systems, not as fast, but they still do a lot of what the more up-to-date software on other platforms is capable of.
You should also keep an eye on the Natami project, which will be more relevant to you than any PowerUP card in existence.
Of course, Natami, and AROS seeing as it uses x86 hardware like Amithlon/AmigaOSXL do. If the Classic OS 4.x doesn't get fixed as it should with full Mediator support I am certainly not interested in getting Classic OS4.x at this point.
"Nearly-Right" above expressed disappointment with the Amiga compatibility of OS4.
No, you've missed my point. I am disappointed that the PCI Mediator hardware has not been embraced by Hyperion, who see it as an obscure piece of hardware, and won't allow it room in their OS, so the DMA hack that works so well under OS3.9 is prevented from working at all under OS4.x, purely because Hyperion - The Friedens, don't like how it works, and so won't give it that bit of room to allow the PCI slots to function as they do under OS3.x.
They, Hyperion/The Friedens, want it - The Mediator, for it's functionality to give more modern Radeon graphics cards support and the ability to enhance their Classic OS4.x graphics system, but then stymie/thwart/stump the rest of the PCI options because they don't like the way it works. Well who is it thwarting, just the Classic Amiga users any chance to have any of the PCI cards being added to the OS4.x system of devices, such as SCSI, USB, SATA, Sound, more modern NICs than the RTL8029AS. All of which, apart from SATA, work under OS3.9.
By the way, there is no Zorro based GFX card that offers the same opportunites as a Radeon card, so OS4.x is definitely aimed at users who have a Mediator, but it seems only for the GFX card slot.
Software incompatability I could understand if it bangs the hardware, but not allowing hardware compatability, for a product that the manufacturers are still actively involved in the Amiga marketplace, which would encourage more people to embrace the Classic OS4.x, is just shooting the Classic Amiga Mediator users in the foot. After all, the GFX part of the Mediator is what is making the OS4.x work mainly, as you need a GFX card to be able to even remotely take advantage of what OS4.x offers. So, cutting off the rest of the Mediator functionality means you've got a £150+ PCI board which is just used to allow GFX functionality, and the other slots, up to 5 more are just redundant.
Oh, did I forget to express my opinion that the PowerUP cards are kind of redundant in 2011, both for retro fans and for NG fans...? ;)
Well they are, as far as I am concerned, if Hyperion don't relent and afford the Mediator this small area of functionality it needs to function under OS4.x
By the way, if you believe in re-incarnation I think you may return in your next life as a fruit-fly. Only kidding :D
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Hi,
@Franko,
PS: It's painless, You only have to start worrying when you start talking to Squirrels and they begin to answer back...
__________________
You mean squirrels talk to, I only thought it was Guinness pigs
smerf
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Please don't talk in fruit-isms explaining to the little people what life is all about. I understand the big picture, and don't need any 'fruit-in-sense' to explain what you mean. Just stick to the facts, please. ;)
Actually i think he was talking to me so try and not take it too personally ;)
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No, you've missed my point. I am disappointed that the PCI Mediator hardware has not been embraced by Hyperion, who see it as an obscure piece of hardware, and won't allow it room in their OS, so the DMA hack that works so well under OS3.9 is prevented from working at all under OS4.x, purely because Hyperion - The Friedens, don't like how it works, and so won't give it that bit of room to allow the PCI slots to function as they do under OS3.x.
I think you might be over-estimating what that "DMA hack" would actually buy you. Lets first take a look at what is supported on the Mediator - out of the box - by the way, with OS 4.1 Classic:
-Realtek 8029 Network card that can get you about 800KB/sec.
-PCI Radeon 9200 or 9250 with up to 256MB of graphics card memory and hardware accelerated Warp3D, MiniGL, and compositing for nice transparency and effects on the Workbench
-Or choose a Voodoo 3/4 or 5 PCI card with up to 32MB of gfx ram.
-Silicon Image PCI Serial ATA cards based on the 3112, 3114, or 3512 chipsets. SATA CDROM/DVD ROM drives, External Docks, SATA hard disks.
-ESS Solo-1 PCI Sound card
Ok, so what would that DMA hack buy us?
1) Maybe the capability to use gfx card memory as an addition to physical ram.
2) The possibility to use a 100Mbit network card
3) The possibility to use a SB 128 PCI sound card, and perhaps a few other models
4) The possibility to use an Analog TV Tuner card
5) The possibility to use a 3rd party SCSI card driver (which is like 1MB/sec last I checked)
Ok...
For 1) You can use a ZorRAM or hard disk based swap partition. You don't need to take away any gfx card ram to use as physical ram (which, by the way, is way slower than any ram on the Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm PPC).
2) Even if you had a 100Mbit network card, the overall system isn't fast enough to get much over 1MB/sec. I have tried this under OS 3.9 - using a 100Mbit card, and really, the performance difference is almost non-existing. You are better off to use a USB network adapter connected to a Deneb and you can get nearly 1MB/sec.
3) ESS Solo-1 works fine, other sound cards would buy you next to nothing additional.
4) Analog TV is on the way out, in fact most countries already discontinued it. Even if you had it. I mean really, do you want to use your Amiga to watch TV all the time?
5) SCSI is nice, but SATA is so much easier (and faster than this 3rd party SCSI driver last I checked. nice to have it, but you have SCSI already on the cyberstorm PPC (sorry not blizzard yet), but still, SCSI is totally replaced in the real world since a long time.
Taking all of this into consdieration: With OS 4.1 Classic you can use - out of the box - no additional drivers or setup required - a Radeon 9250 with 256MB, a SATA card, a PCI Sound card, and a PCI network card. Plus you can use Zorro cards like the Deneb, ZorRAM and others.
In my opinion that DMA hack (which by the way is only between PCI cards - not over Zorro and to the CPU card) is not required to make AmigaOS 4.1 Classic a nice functional upgrade for most Classic users who have PPC cards.
The out-of-the-box experience is *far superior* to AmigaOS 3.9 (and even 4.0 functionally) if you have a PPC card and a gfx card. You don't even need a Mediator or Prometheus to be functional if you have Zorro equivalent cards.
PS - just so you know, Hyperion worked with Elbox to properly support the Mediator in AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. We had questions, they answered them for us. They also provided the included FastATA driver. OK, no DMA hack, but really, it's not needed.
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Hi,
@takemehomegrandma,
Just went to the Apple boards where one young fellow was talking about updating his G4 up to the 7448 processor, and even the Apple fanboys where telling him that he would be better off buying one of the newer computers and get away from the PPC processors, one of them even said (PPC is old ancient and dead, why in the hello would you want to waste all that money on a 2.0ghz ppc processor, just buy one of the newer computers with an Intel).
It just goes to show that even the Apple fanboys are getting smarter.
smerf
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Hi,
@takemehomegrandma,
Just went to the Apple boards where one young fellow was talking about updating his G4 up to the 7448 processor, and even the Apple fanboys where telling him that he would be better off buying one of the newer computers and get away from the PPC processors, one of them even said (PPC is old ancient and dead, why in the hello would you want to waste all that money on a 2.0ghz ppc processor, just buy one of the newer computers with an Intel).
It just goes to show that even the Apple fanboys are getting smarter.
smerf
A link would be nice :)
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Hi,
@Kesa,
http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/apple-desktops/143863-g4-quicksilver-processor-upgrade.html
There we go, read and laugh
smerf
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Hi,
@Kesa,
http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/apple-desktops/143863-g4-quicksilver-processor-upgrade.html
There we go, read and laugh
smerf
Just went over there and man... what a bunch of losers! :roflmao:
Those guys are so annoying. Let's start a forum war! :)
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I think you might be over-estimating what that "DMA hack" would actually buy you. Lets first take a look at what is supported on the Mediator - out of the box - by the way, with OS 4.1 Classic:
-Realtek 8029 Network card that can get you about 800KB/sec.
-PCI Radeon 9200 or 9250 with up to 256MB of graphics card memory and hardware accelerated Warp3D, MiniGL, and compositing for nice transparency and effects on the Workbench
-Or choose a Voodoo 3/4 or 5 PCI card with up to 32MB of gfx ram.
-Silicon Image PCI Serial ATA cards based on the 3112, 3114, or 3512 chipsets. SATA CDROM/DVD ROM drives, External Docks, SATA hard disks.
-ESS Solo-1 PCI Sound card
I was aware of the RTL8029AS PCI card, which I'd already mentioned, and of course the Radeon and Voodoo GFX cards I am aware of also.
I read on the Hyperion Blog there was testing of the PCI SATA cards, but I missed the confirmation that certain SATA PCI cards were supported under Classic OS4.1?
However, the release information did not state which chipsets were supported, so your information is of more use, but should have been in the level of detail you've supplied on the release information.
Of course it is a good thing that it is supported, and welcomed.
Communications is a great skill, it seems very much forgotten by the release team.
Ok, so what would that DMA hack buy us?
1) Maybe the capability to use gfx card memory as an addition to physical ram.
2) The possibility to use a 100Mbit network card
3) The possibility to use a SB 128 PCI sound card, and perhaps a few other models
4) The possibility to use an Analog TV Tuner card
5) The possibility to use a 3rd party SCSI card driver (which is like 1MB/sec last I checked)
Ok...
For 1) You can use a ZorRAM or hard disk based swap partition. You don't need to take away any gfx card ram to use as physical ram (which, by the way, is way slower than any ram on the Blizzard PPC or Cyberstorm PPC).
Absolutely no use in a Mediator system on an A1200 as you cannot fit a ZorRAM card in it as there is no Zorro 3 interface on a Mediator or on a standard A1200, it is only of any use in an A4000, and maybe an A3000 also.
Are you the owner of a PPC A4000 or A3000 by any chance?
2) Even if you had a 100Mbit network card, the overall system isn't fast enough to get much over 1MB/sec. I have tried this under OS 3.9 - using a 100Mbit card, and really, the performance difference is almost non-existing. You are better off to use a USB network adapter connected to a Deneb and you can get nearly 1MB/sec.
Again you are quoting using a piece of hardware, Deneb, that can ONLY be used in Zorro 3 interface, which doesn't exist in an A1200 Mediator system. What's more, if I got a little more speed out of a 100MB NIC, then that would be an improvement in any case, and I'd take that opportunity, but it's being denied us.
You haven't thought your response through very well so far I am sorry to say.
3) ESS Solo-1 works fine, other sound cards would buy you next to nothing additional.
The ESS Solo-1 Soundcard is an old PCI card, and is now very difficult to get hold of, and I don't know of an Amiga supplier that stocks it, do you? The other soundcards are very easy to acquire, so why go and develop for a soundcard that is obscure and difficult to come by in significant numbers for Mediator users that might need one for Classic OS4.1?
4) Analog TV is on the way out, in fact most countries already discontinued it. Even if you had it. I mean really, do you want to use your Amiga to watch TV all the time?
That is a more valid point, but you can still plug in a Digital TV Freeview STB box with RF modulation into the TV card to get the Freeview channels shown through the Analogue TV card. Again, it's a device that can be used, though I haven't used mine that much of recent.
5) SCSI is nice, but SATA is so much easier (and faster than this 3rd party SCSI driver last I checked. nice to have it, but you have SCSI already on the cyberstorm PPC (sorry not blizzard yet), but still, SCSI is totally replaced in the real world since a long time.
Yes, but we're using a CLASSIC system here, and SCSI hardware is still a valid hardware format for CLASSIC systems, or else we wouldn't want a Classic OS 4.1 would we?
In any case why is the SCSI working on the A4000 accelerator cards, and not on the Blizzard SCSI adapter, if you know?
Taking all of this into consdieration: With OS 4.1 Classic you can use - out of the box - no additional drivers or setup required - a Radeon 9250 with 256MB, a SATA card, a PCI Sound card, and a PCI network card. Plus you can use Zorro cards like the Deneb, ZorRAM and others.
The points you make have some validity, but your main argument still does not answer why the DMA hack is not supported/allowed?
As we are using a CLASSIC system, then surely supporting CLASSIC hardware means supporting as much of the existing Classic Mediator hardware as possible to get the most from it.
Why allow the Radeon to function but dis-allow/prevent the Creative soundcards to function or the Spider USB card, or the TV card, or the faster RTL8139 NIC? It does not make any sense.
We are limited enough by what cards are available for the Mediator system, and to be limited even further by the rarer sound amd NIC cards is not a plus point for Classic OS4.1, yet you seem to be singing it's praises that it's cut off the majority of cards that the Mediator supported by using the DMA hack.
Not using a widely available soundcard which is what the ESS Solo-1 is, causes another problem for Mediator users as most opted for the more widely available Creative SB128 or similar models which are supported under the 68k Mediator PCI system drivers. So many users would have to hunt around on the internet to try to find one of these relatively obscure cards.
In my opinion that DMA hack (which by the way is only between PCI cards - not over Zorro and to the CPU card) is not required to make AmigaOS 4.1 Classic a nice functional upgrade for most Classic users who have PPC cards.
But you are forgetting that most Mediator users will have the cards that have been cut off by the Classic OS4.1 not supporting/allowing the 68k DMA hack.
So they, and I'm included in that bunch, am not very happy about losing those cards functionality, and I don't hear of any replacement Mediator PCI drivers for more up-to-date PCI cards being developed, not even after 3 years of hard development work, for Classic OS4.1 to supercede/replace drivers for those type of cards in the Mediator, or are there?
The out-of-the-box experience is *far superior* to AmigaOS 3.9 (and even 4.0 functionally) if you have a PPC card and a gfx card.
Of course, I cannot know if Classic OS4.1 is a "far superior" experience, UNLESS I am prepared to spend £100, and from what you've said still doesn't fill me with joy.
I'm still stinging from the Classic Amiga OS4.0 release which as I've said was the worst Amiga Workbench experience I have EVER had, and one that even now, 3-4 years after it's release, still is putting me off.
That's a lot to do with Hyperion's lack of support for Classic OS4.0, and the poor product that was released due to the initial incompatabilities, which should have been fixed, well before it was released - sign of a hurried product released to the market place, before thorough testing had been completed properly.
You don't even need a Mediator or Prometheus to be functional if you have Zorro equivalent cards.
Again, your presumably an A3000 or A4000 owner, and you've forgotten about those of us with an A1200 PPC card with no Zorro interface. That's why I got a Mediator as I can get a GFX card in it that way, and a soundcard, and a USB card, and a PCI SCSI card, and an ethernet PCI NIC - which I couldn't do as an A1200 is without a Zorro interface.
PS - just so you know, Hyperion worked with Elbox to properly support the Mediator in AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. We had questions, they answered them for us. They also provided the included FastATA driver. OK, no DMA hack, but really, it's not needed.
No, the Mediator is NOT PROPERLY SUPPORTED, as under OS3.9 68k there are PCI cards that function very well, thank you very much, but don't under Classic OS4.1.
No of course the DMA hack is not needed, if you don't mind your original Mediator system to be laid bare/denuded by the lack of DMA hack support.
I don't agree with your polarized view of Classic OS4.1 and the lack of DMA support for the Mediator which has not been supported as it should be by the latest Classic Amiga OS4.1, and wasn't over 3 years ago when Classic OS4.0 was released.
So not much/any re-design has gone on in the OS to support the Mediator's functionality, even with consultation with Elbox. Someone is to blame for that, and it's a disgrace.
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Absolutely no use in a Mediator system on an A1200 as you cannot fit a ZorRAM card in it as there is no Zorro 3 interface on a Mediator or on a standard A1200, it is only of any use in an A4000, and maybe an A3000 also. Are you the owner of a PPC A4000 or A3000 by any chance?
Yes, however, the Blizzard with 256MB physical ram capability lessens the need for any ZorRAM. You could use a swap partition on a SATA hard disk if you need it. The Cyberstorm PPC can only take 128MB of physical ram, so that is why the ZorRAM is important in that case.
Again you are quoting using a piece of hardware, Deneb, that can ONLY be used in Zorro 3 interface, which doesn't exist in an A1200 Mediator system. What's more, if I got a little more speed out of a 100MB NIC, then that would be an improvement in any case, and I'd take that opportunity, but it's being denied us.
Possibly getting a couple hundred KB more out of a NIC, at least to me, isn't that compelling of a reason...but if that's a critical factor for you, that's your decision and nothing I can do to change it.
The ESS Solo-1 Soundcard is an old PCI card, and is now very difficult to get hold of, and I don't know of an Amiga supplier that stocks it, do you? The other soundcards are very easy to acquire, so why go and develop for a soundcard that is obscure and difficult to come by in significant numbers for Mediator users that might need one for Classic OS4.1?
No, but my local corner computer store had more than 10 in stock, brand new, for about $15 bucks each. I bet they are still there, so at least for me it was easier to get that then to order one from an Amiga dealer.
Yes, but we're using a CLASSIC system here, and SCSI hardware is still a valid hardware format for CLASSIC systems, or else we wouldn't want a Classic OS 4.1 would we?
In any case why is the SCSI working on the A4000 accelerator cards, and not on the Blizzard SCSI adapter, if you know?
Which is why we have included SATA support - to allow users to use cheap and readily available SATA hard disks. As I have stated in other threads, it is quite possible that work on the Blizzard PPC SCSI driver _may_ start after the BlizzardVision Warp3D driver. It's not exactly easy to find someone to write this Blizzard SCSI Driver...trust me. Go try to ask someone to write it...luckily we have a developer who is willing to take a crack at it, but he's very busy at the moment. There are probably only about 5-6 people with the expertise to write the driver (who also have expertise on Amiga) and half of those people are MorphOS devleopers, who obviously won't write a driver for AmigaOS4, and of the other half, none of them remaining have Classic hardware except one. Luckily he is a nice guy and has agreed to help out, time permitting.
The points you make have some validity, but your main argument still does not answer why the DMA hack is not supported/allowed?
It won't be done because it is a _hack_. It's ugly, it's messy, and it's not real DMA, and it doesn't DMA back to the system and would only allow a handful of other cards to work - most of which the functionality is _already_ covered and works quite fine, so the developers aren't going to do it. I'm sorry but I've personally asked about it and they won't do it.
As we are using a CLASSIC system, then surely supporting CLASSIC hardware means supporting as much of the existing Classic Mediator hardware as possible to get the most from it.
You have to understand that resources are very limited. If I had lots of money and lots of developers with the required hardware and skills to actually write drivers, then we would have more drivers. The cold hard fact is that we don't and I don't see people volunteering to write more drivers for us...
Why allow the Radeon to function but dis-allow/prevent the Creative soundcards to function or the Spider USB card, or the TV card, or the faster RTL8139 NIC? It does not make any sense.
Those cards all require DMA.
We are limited enough by what cards are available for the Mediator system, and to be limited even further by the rarer sound amd NIC cards is not a plus point for Classic OS4.1, yet you seem to be singing it's praises that it's cut off the majority of cards that the Mediator supported by using the DMA hack.
Be careful with your words here, it is not the majority of cards. Functionality _is_ available with alternate cards as I have mentioned. Sound, Network, SATA, Graphics - it's all possible out-of-the-box. Is it limited to specific cards? Yes. Would I like more cards supported? Sure, but we don't have the resources (ie. time and money) to do it. If you have several thousand dollars to hire a programmer then we could get one additional driver.
Not using a widely available soundcard which is what the ESS Solo-1 is, causes another problem for Mediator users as most opted for the more widely available Creative SB128 or similar models which are supported under the 68k Mediator PCI system drivers. So many users would have to hunt around on the internet to try to find one of these relatively obscure cards.
If you want me to get you a Solo-1 I can, as I said, they have >10 in stock at my local computer shop. Send me a private message if you want.
But you are forgetting that most Mediator users will have the cards that have been cut off by the Classic OS4.1 not supporting/allowing the 68k DMA hack.
Again be careful with your words, how do you know "Most" users will be cut off? Maybe YOU will be cut off, because you don't own the supported hardware, but that hardware is still available and cheap to obtain.
So they, and I'm included in that bunch, am not very happy about losing those cards functionality, and I don't hear of any replacement Mediator PCI drivers for more up-to-date PCI cards being developed, not even after 3 years of hard development work, for Classic OS4.1 to supercede/replace drivers for those type of cards in the Mediator, or are there?
I'm sorry your hardware isn't supported, but as I've said, we don't have the time or money to develop additional drivers at this time. We've supported what we can and tried to cover all the functionality you need (Sound, Network, Graphics, Disk) out of the box. Yes, support is limited to specific cards. Sorry those aren't the ones you own.
Of course, I cannot know if Classic OS4.1 is a "far superior" experience, UNLESS I am prepared to spend £100, and from what you've said still doesn't fill me with joy.
I'm still stinging from the Classic Amiga OS4.0 release which as I've said was the worst Amiga Workbench experience I have EVER had, and one that even now, 3-4 years after it's release, still is putting me off.
That's a lot to do with Hyperion's lack of support for Classic OS4.0, and the poor product that was released due to the initial incompatabilities, which should have been fixed, well before it was released - sign of a hurried product released to the market place, before thorough testing had been completed properly.
Look, I'm not trying to sell you AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. I'm just trying to point out that it does support a limited set of PCI hardware because it's not possible for Hyperion to write drivers for all the PCI cards out there. I'm sorry but that's the reality of the market. We support functionality people will need based on a limited set of cards.
If you think AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is not for you - then by all means do not buy it.
All I can say is myself and others have worked very hard to overcome many of the critical points against AmigaOS 4.0 Classic. We had a limited timeline and limited budget. We've done the best we can and I am proud of what we have accomplished - releasing a new OS for a 20 year old machines and 14 year old PPC accelerators is not easy.
PS - I was NOT really involved with AmigaOS 4.0 Classic so I can't speak for that product.
PPS - Even if the DMA hack worked, new drivers would still be required for ALL of the cards that you mention. Elbox drivers are in 68k ASM and are not compatible with the PCI sub-system library interface of AmigaOS4.1 - they would all have to be entirely re-written.
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Well explained HammerD,
I remember a few months back quickly trying to hook up my Prometheus to my A4000 to do trials with the Radeon and couldn't find the the proper power cable, but in my rather large collection of odd cables I found what I thought would be a great replacement...
Errr, short answer NO and I fried my Prometheus, I don't remember saying I could no longer test this avenue any longer, no, I simply went to AmigaKit and found the link for another Prometheus and it was shipped to me, certainly it was my fault for not waiting until I found the right cable (I still don't know where it is actually) but I was more concerned with continuing my part in beta testing OS4.x for the 604e... It cost me personally 117.48 euro...
The moral of the story, however vague it is, IS that people who are seriously passionate about there Amiga computers are genuinely passionate about them... they go that extra mile because they enjoy what they do... I have always wondered about the validity of "other" Amiga users who seem to always simply complain or "point out these realistic shortcomings" of everyone elses endevours... when ever I found myself with something that didn't work but I wanted to achieve X... I'd just go out and get the extra bits and by the next day I was running X!
I never ever complained about what I couldn't do or what wasn't there... It's just like my approach to life, take work for instance, my work is not just a job, it is my choice of employment at the moment, I am the best I can be... I don't have to be here, it's my choice...
If you want to use an Amiga system that faces all these cons today, then get on with it and enjoy it... otherwise seriously, give it up...
There are MANY MANY more examples of what people spend on things they enjoy that alot of us will never understand... but it doesn't stop them enjoying it does it?
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>OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50...
I know, but 6Mb isn't necessary, it will indeed boot on a 2Mb system.
And OS4 will boot in far less than 96MB too - but it'll be about as useful as OS3.9 in 2MB - i.e. not very.
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Yes, however, the Blizzard with 256MB physical ram capability lessens the need for any ZorRAM. You could use a swap partition on a SATA hard disk if you need it.
So how much RAM does Classic OS4.1 NEED to run, as a minimum?
I would of course get a SATA PCI card & HDD if I decided to buy OS4.1.
Do you know if the Squirrel SCSI device is usable under Classic OS4.1? As that would be an option to swap some of the data I have from a SCSI HDD or ZIP drive to some other HDD if required.
Possibly getting a couple hundred KB more out of a NIC, ...but if that's a critical factor for you, ...
It's obviously not critical, BUT the fact that the faster RTL8139 device works under OS3.9 but hasn't been supported under OS4.1 means I'd have to try to source one of those cards instead of an RTL8139. Not a lot of outlay, but more cost when I feel with all the time that's been available to support it, namely 8+ years of 'development' you'd think, have hoped, that the situation would have been grasped, handled better and fixed.
No, but my local corner computer store had more than 10 in stock, brand new, for about $15 bucks each. I bet they are still there, so at least for me it was easier to get that then to order one from an Amiga dealer.
But you just said, if I understand your reply correctly, that 'No' you don't know of an Amiga dealer that stocks that soundcard.
I checked with AmigaKit - the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 who don't have any soundcards shown on a search of their site, other than the Delfina soundcard, so that's my point. They are not readily available, even on ebay I only came across 1 listed.
So if the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 don't even have them stocked then where are all the people who want one of these soundcards going to get one from?
I know you say you've a local shop that has a few, but that won't supply the demands of many that may be required if sales of Classic OS4.1 take off, and it'd be only the lucky few betatesters, and one or two others who may already have, or are going to end up with this obscure soundcard to take advantage of it being usable in a Mediator with Classic OS4.1. The SOLO soundcard is obscure, and hard to get hold of, and there should have been a more readily available soundcard chosen to be usable with Classic OS4.1.
As I have stated in other threads, it is quite possible that work on the Blizzard PPC SCSI driver _may_ start after the BlizzardVision Warp3D driver.
That's more optimistic than I've heard before, BUT after having been abandoned by Hyperion after Classic OS4.0 I'm not so sure the Blizzard SCSI driver will get its required time spent on development that will lead to a working driver for the SCSI side of the PPC cards. I'd like to be optimistic, but I feel more pessimistic right now.
Which is another justifiable reason for the Adaptec PCI SCSI cards to be supported, which it isn't/won't due to the DMA issue.
It's not exactly easy to find someone to write this Blizzard SCSI Driver...trust me. ...luckily we have a developer who is willing to take a crack at it, but he's very busy at the moment. ... Luckily he is a nice guy and has agreed to help out, time permitting.
That gives me more optimism, but I'm not holding my breath.
It won't be done because it is a _hack_. It's ugly, it's messy, and it's not real DMA, and it doesn't DMA back to the system ... , so the developers aren't going to do it. I'm sorry but I've personally asked about it and they won't do it.
Of course it's not real DMA, the A1200 was never designed for real DMA from the accelerator port for the kind of functionality the Mediator supplies, but it works well in conjunction with the cards it supports.
I appreciate you asking about supporting the DMA hack, and I'm just interested to know why you asked them about it?
You have to understand that resources are very limited.
OK, I think I already understood the cost side of things, limited budget and all that, but to have limited the latest Classic OS4.1 to an older/slower NIC, and a soundcard that is basic, and generally hard to come by was not a good choice.
Is the chipset that's on the SOLO soundcard supported, so that any soundcard with the same chipset can be used or is it that specific design of the ESS-SOLO-1 soundcard that is supported? Basically would a Terratec 512i Digital be supported, or a HitPoint FM801 soundcard be usable under OS4.1 or not?
If you want me to get you a Solo-1 I can, as I said, they have >10 in stock at my local computer shop. Send me a private message if you want.
I'm not so sure about getting Classic OS4.1 as yet, so I'll hold off on that, but thanks for the offer.
Again be careful with your words, how do you know "Most" users will be cut off?
Mediator users with 68k systems, considering upgrading more than likely will have Creative soundcards, none of which work under OS4.1, and the Spider USB card is also not supported under OS4.1, and the RTL8139 NIC is also not supported, never mind the TV/FM or SCSI cards, so consider the likelihood of the number of Mediator users with one, or more, of those cards in their setups, and then consider how many users will be adversely affected - that will be MOST.
Maybe YOU will be cut off, because you don't own the supported hardware, but that hardware is still available and cheap to obtain.
Maybe I won't be cut off, as I won't be moving to Classic OS4.1 any time soon it seems. :D
I'm sorry your hardware isn't supported, ... Sorry those aren't the ones you own.
Who said I don't own those supported cards! :D
Look, I'm not trying to sell you AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. I'm just trying to point out that it does support a limited set of PCI hardware because it's not possible for Hyperion to write drivers for all the PCI cards out there. I'm sorry but that's the reality of the market. We support functionality people will need based on a limited set of cards.
So if you're still waiting on a developer to work on supporting the Blizzard SCSI device then you/Hyperion know that SCSI is important, but Classic OS4.1 won't support the Adaptec PCI SCSI option it seems, or the other PCI cards that need the DMA hack.
I've never known of any problems with the DMA hack under 68k, and with Elbox most likely to still be able to provide new compatible code for the DMA system they use, it seems Hyperion are not supporting the Mediator as well as it could be.
If you think AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is not for you - then by all means do not buy it.
All I can say is myself and others have worked very hard to overcome many of the critical points against AmigaOS 4.0 Classic.
I agree there were many critical points against Classic OS4.0, but I never got an apology from anyone from Hyperion when I pointed its failings out. I was basically told that it was basically well received, which frankly I cannot believe, especially when you looked at the forums at the time it was released as many users had lots of problems with booting, crashing, etc. Yet there was, and still is, no support, FAQ on any of the websites associated with the release of OS4.0 for the Classic Amiga.
A lack of information as to specifics of what cards are supported, or if it just the chipset or a specific manufacturers model of a card that is supported, and all the more critical factors of what you can have attached to your Classic Amiga system when using OS4.1.
I have a HyperCOM clockport card in one of my A1200s and like using it, but I'm not sure if that would be usable under Classic OS4.1. Surely more information as to which 68k based drivers will work under Classic OS4.1 should be made available.
We had a limited timeline and limited budget. We've done the best we can and I am proud of what we have accomplished - releasing a new OS for a 20 year old machines and 14 year old PPC accelerators is not easy.
I agree with your remark, and don't get me wrong I am aware a lot of work has been put in to complete Classic OS4.1, but it's a lot of money for people who bought Classic OS4.0, and got little out of it, like me, only to then be asked to part with £100 (approx) for a x.1 update.
The level of criticism there was about the shabby level of compatibility when Classic OS4.0 was initially released was, in my opinion, justified, and is at last being addressed in OS4.1, but to ask those people who paid out for a FULL/NEW version of an Amiga OS to stump up for another FULL payment for what is basically an update is not fair.
PS - I was NOT really involved with AmigaOS 4.0 Classic so I can't speak for that product.
What does "not really involved" actually mean then. Either you did a little, something more than that, OR you did nothing at all to help in the development of Classic OS4.0, but not really involved is not a definitive position, is it?
PPS - Even if the DMA hack worked, new drivers would still be required for ALL of the cards that you mention. Elbox drivers are in 68k ASM and are not compatible with the PCI sub-system library interface of AmigaOS4.1 - they would all have to be entirely re-written.
Well, Elbox are still a viable company, have they been asked to supply, and offered support, to create new drivers in-line with the PCI sub-system library interface of OS4.1?
I t want you to know I'm appreciative of your time, and effort, because I am really grateful for your insights into Classic OS4.1.
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@HammerD
Thanks for those words. Maybe we will see the blizzppc.device working some day.
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So how much RAM does Classic OS4.1 NEED to run, as a minimum?
I would of course get a SATA PCI card & HDD if I decided to buy OS4.1.
Do you know if the Squirrel SCSI device is usable under Classic OS4.1? As that would be an option to swap some of the data I have from a SCSI HDD or ZIP drive to some other HDD if required.
I'm not sure about the Squirrel. If the driver behaves the rules and doesn't make assumptions of hardware by peeking/poking system structures then it could work.
It's obviously not critical, BUT the fact that the faster RTL8139 device works under OS3.9 but hasn't been supported under OS4.1 means I'd have to try to source one of those cards instead of an RTL8139.
Well that card needs DMA so it won't work. That is not going to change so you're just going to have to find a RTL8029 network card. A 30 second google search brought one up for sale on ebay for $15 dollars:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Realtek-RTL8029AS-32-bit-PCI-w-RJ-45-10BaseT-/280470779616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414d5c76e0#ht_500wt_1025
But you just said, if I understand your reply correctly, that 'No' you don't know of an Amiga dealer that stocks that soundcard.
Well I haven't looked, since there is ample supply 3 KM from my house at my local corner computer store. Maybe it would make sense for AmigaKit or other dealers to stock that card.
I checked with AmigaKit - the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 who don't have any soundcards shown on a search of their site, other than the Delfina soundcard, so that's my point. They are not readily available, even on ebay I only came across 1 listed.
So if the suppliers of Classic OS4.1 don't even have them stocked then where are all the people who want one of these soundcards going to get one from?
Well Paula still works quite well - remember all the Classic Amigas have a good built-in sound chip which is supported both in 4.0 and 4.1. If you have a good set of speakers Paula still sounds amazing. In my machines I often use Paula still. So a sound card is not absolutely required.
The SOLO soundcard is obscure, and hard to get hold of, and there should have been a more readily available soundcard chosen to be usable with Classic OS4.1.
Well my offer still stands if you need one.
That's more optimistic than I've heard before, BUT after having been abandoned by Hyperion after Classic OS4.0 I'm not so sure the Blizzard SCSI driver will get its required time spent on development that will lead to a working driver for the SCSI side of the PPC cards. I'd like to be optimistic, but I feel more pessimistic right now.
Which is another justifiable reason for the Adaptec PCI SCSI cards to be supported, which it isn't/won't due to the DMA issue.
I would remind you that it is totally possible for anyone to write drivers. The SDK is out there, there are several websites that help people with AmigaOS4 programming, and you can always E-mail Hyperion for support. Hyperion can't write all the drivers.
Our Warp3D Permedia2 programmer is really great and he's spent ALOT of time on the driver. he's just terribly busy at the moment so his first priority is to finish the permedia2 driver, then he can look into the blizzard PPC scsi driver.
I appreciate you asking about supporting the DMA hack, and I'm just interested to know why you asked them about it?
I've been on the beta testing team since 2003, I directly asked Hyperion about adding the DMA hack and they won't. If proper DMA was available it would work. To my knowledge Elbox has not offered any source code to implment such a DMA hack, and it is in 68K asm anyway so not useful.
Since this is Elbox's hardware perhaps you should be asking them why they don't have more OS4 drivers for their hardware? Just a thought, maybe it would help if the users demanded of Elbox more OS4.1 drivers.
OK, I think I already understood the cost side of things, limited budget and all that, but to have limited the latest Classic OS4.1 to an older/slower NIC, and a soundcard that is basic, and generally hard to come by was not a good choice.
The list of PCI cards that can work with PIO is rather limited, so we basically had no choice.
Is the chipset that's on the SOLO soundcard supported, so that any soundcard with the same chipset can be used or is it that specific design of the ESS-SOLO-1 soundcard that is supported? Basically would a Terratec 512i Digital be supported, or a HitPoint FM801 soundcard be usable under OS4.1 or not?
If they have an ESS 1969 chip then it should work.
I'm not so sure about getting Classic OS4.1 as yet, so I'll hold off on that, but thanks for the offer.
Well, up to you. As I said it's not my job to sell it to you :) I'm here for free technical support for registered users, really.
Mediator users with 68k systems, considering upgrading more than likely will have Creative soundcards, none of which work under OS4.1, and the Spider USB card is also not supported under OS4.1, and the RTL8139 NIC is also not supported, never mind the TV/FM or SCSI cards, so consider the likelihood of the number of Mediator users with one, or more, of those cards in their setups, and then consider how many users will be adversely affected - that will be MOST.
As I stated above, perhaps it's time for the users to demand of Elbox to port their drivers to OS4.1. Hyperion can't be expected to do it all.
Who said I don't own those supported cards! :D
Well, good, then you won't have to buy them :)
So if you're still waiting on a developer to work on supporting the Blizzard SCSI device then you/Hyperion know that SCSI is important, but Classic OS4.1 won't support the Adaptec PCI SCSI option it seems, or the other PCI cards that need the DMA hack.
I've never known of any problems with the DMA hack under 68k, and with Elbox most likely to still be able to provide new compatible code for the DMA system they use, it seems Hyperion are not supporting the Mediator as well as it could be.
Well Hyperion is supporting proper DMA, which is something the Mediator lacks. Elbox is free to develop OS4.1 drivers as well, as I've said. In fact they did include a the FastATA driver with AmigaOS4.1 Classic. Their resources are probably very limited as well, which is why you don't see more drivers from them.
A lack of information as to specifics of what cards are supported, or if it just the chipset or a specific manufacturers model of a card that is supported, and all the more critical factors of what you can have attached to your Classic Amiga system when using OS4.1.
If you look at the 4.0 compatibility list on Acube's site then add Radeon 9200 or 9250, the SATA PCI cards based on the Silicon Image 3112, 3114, and 3512, and the ESS Solo-1 based on the 1969 chipset, you basically have it.
I have a HyperCOM clockport card in one of my A1200s and like using it, but I'm not sure if that would be usable under Classic OS4.1. Surely more information as to which 68k based drivers will work under Classic OS4.1 should be made available.
Not sure about this, never heard of any beta tester having it. If the drivers follow the rules it should work.
I agree with your remark, and don't get me wrong I am aware a lot of work has been put in to complete Classic OS4.1, but it's a lot of money for people who bought Classic OS4.0, and got little out of it, like me, only to then be asked to part with £100 (approx) for a x.1 update.
The level of criticism there was about the shabby level of compatibility when Classic OS4.0 was initially released was, in my opinion, justified, and is at last being addressed in OS4.1, but to ask those people who paid out for a FULL/NEW version of an Amiga OS to stump up for another FULL payment for what is basically an update is not fair.
Pricing and distribution are not decided from me. But AmigaOS 4.1 is not just a .1 update. It's far more than that. It's all of 4.1's new features, plus 4.1 Update 1, Update 2, and all of the fixes we've made and specific things for the Classic, like the Radeon support, the Solo-1 support, the SATA support, memory paging support, the Warp3D Permedia2 driver, and further things planned specifically for Classic in Update 3, it's not even comparable to 4.0 Classic at all.
What does "not really involved" actually mean then. Either you did a little, something more than that, OR you did nothing at all to help in the development of Classic OS4.0, but not really involved is not a definitive position, is it?
I am a beta tester since 2003 but at the time of 4.0 development I had no Classic hardware so I didn't really pay attention to Classic nor participate directly in the beta testing. So I knew about it but at the time I was focused on my MicroA1.
Well, Elbox are still a viable company, have they been asked to supply, and offered support, to create new drivers in-line with the PCI sub-system library interface of OS4.1?
As I stated before, they assisted us to help with PCI configuration of the Mediator and they supplied the FastATA driver. Certainly if they wanted to (or could) provide more they could/can.
I t want you to know I'm appreciative of your time, and effort, because I am really grateful for your insights into Classic OS4.1.
Thank you, and thanks for asking the questions. I'm just trying to defend the product, obviously, since I know it so well and worked on it so long, but ultimately it is up to you if you buy it or not.
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So how much RAM does Classic OS4.1 NEED to run, as a minimum?
You could _probably_ get by with 64MB by making a bare bones kicklayout, no backdrop picture ...etc...but i would not want less than 96MB.
This is assuming a graphics card and a relatively modern resolution like 1024x768 or higher.
Generally with any operating system the more ram the merrier.
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Small Update, I heard from Carl Moppett (one of the primary testers) that the squirrelscsi.device does work under AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. You can either use it with a mountlist to mount a CDROM or add it as a kickstart module to kicklayout. Sorry I don't have further details as I don't own the hardware nor an A1200, but it should work.
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I'm not sure about the Squirrel. If the driver behaves the rules and doesn't make assumptions of hardware by peeking/poking system structures then it could work.
Got your update from Carl Moppett that the squirrelscsi.device is OK with Classic 0S4.1, so that's a SCSI alternative for an A1200, as long as the PCMCIA port isn't being used for something else.
Well that card needs DMA so it won't work. That is not going to change so you're just going to have to find a RTL8029 network card. A 30 second google search brought one up for sale on ebay for $15 dollars:
I've already got one, as I needed one for Classic OS4.0 - not that it did me much good, or got much use on that OS 4.0 version. :(
I read your comments that the SOLO has to have the ESS 1969 chipset, but I just looked at a SOLO card on ebay, and it shows the chipset as ES1938S, so is this chipset also supported, as there is no information about only certain chipsets being viable under Classic OS4.1, just the fact that you have to have an ESS SOLO soundcard.
Please clarify the specifics of the chipset, as this seems to be a possible stumbling block.
Well I haven't looked, since there is ample supply 3 KM from my house at my local corner computer store. Maybe it would make sense for AmigaKit or other dealers to stock that card.
Well that just shows how poorly prepared AmigaKit is for the Classic OS4.1 release.
Well Paula still works quite well - remember all the Classic Amigas have a good built-in sound chip which is supported both in 4.0 and 4.1. If you have a good set of speakers Paula still sounds amazing. In my machines I often use Paula still. So a sound card is not absolutely required.
It's just as well it's not a pre-requisite, or there'd be loads of people buying Classic OS4.1 who'd not be able to use it, for the lack of a compatible soundcard.
Well my offer still stands if you need one.
Appreciated.
I would remind you that it is totally possible for anyone to write drivers. The SDK is out there, there are several websites that help people with AmigaOS4 programming, and you can always E-mail Hyperion for support. Hyperion can't write all the drivers.
But it's their OS, and it's in their interests to ensure there is a method for using more cards in the Mediator seeing as they are using it for part of their OS requirements. They should be pursuing this, especially as they have Elbox as one of their betatesters. They'd do well to get something worked out for us all between themselves, as they know what's required to solve this problem, and find a method of working around it. If they can't do it between themselves it's a pitiful state of affairs, and in any case should not require potential customers to have to badger a company that should already have been approached by the people writing the OS, don't you think?
Our Warp3D Permedia2 programmer is really great and he's spent ALOT of time on the driver. he's just terribly busy at the moment so his first priority is to finish the permedia2 driver, then he can look into the blizzard PPC scsi driver.
Understood, thanks for the info.
I've been on the beta testing team since 2003, I directly asked Hyperion about adding the DMA hack and they won't. If proper DMA was available it would work. To my knowledge Elbox has not offered any source code to implment such a DMA hack, and it is in 68K asm anyway so not useful.
I still think Elbox, and Hyperion are the ones to resolve this situation, not customers. They both know of the problem, and it's really in both their interests to get it working, by whatever means they can, and not something for the customer to have to badger them about, as they are both in direct communication about working on the Classic OS4.1.
Since this is Elbox's hardware perhaps you should be asking them why they don't have more OS4 drivers for their hardware? Just a thought, maybe it would help if the users demanded of Elbox more OS4.1 drivers.
See above remark
The list of PCI cards that can work with PIO is rather limited, so we basically had no choice.
If they have an ESS 1969 chip then it should work.
See my above remark, as there seem to be SOLO soundcards with different chipsets on them, so are all the chipsets on the SOLO cards supported, or only specific ones?
Well, up to you. As I said it's not my job to sell it to you :) I'm here for free technical support for registered users, really.
You've helped me with some decisions, unfortunately they have not persuaded me to take the plunge, but the information has been helpful, and may well be beneficial to others who do decide to buy Classic OS4.1.
Many thanks for your efforts, I only wish there was more of a public relationship performance from Hyperion than currently exists.
Well Hyperion is supporting proper DMA, which is something the Mediator lacks. Elbox is free to develop OS4.1 drivers as well, as I've said. In fact they did include a the FastATA driver with AmigaOS4.1 Classic. Their resources are probably very limited as well, which is why you don't see more drivers from them.
I think Elbox know that true DMA is not possible from the Mediator, or they have not figured out a way to implement it, but I think it's basically nigh on impossible to achieve, which Hyperion know. The issue for me, that's upsetting, is who is the lack of DMA hurting .... the Amiga user who has a Mediator that would buy Classic OS4.1 if all the cards were allowed to work under OS4.1, as they do under OS3.9, but without this concession by Hyperion it is not going to happen. I don't think there is anything Elbox can do to implement something that is impossible to implement, without some concession by Hyperion.
I think the Boing ball is squarely in Hyperion's court, and they are keeping their hands tightly on their own Boing Ball.
If you look at the 4.0 compatibility list on Acube's site then add Radeon 9200 or 9250, the SATA PCI cards based on the Silicon Image 3112, 3114, and 3512, and the ESS Solo-1 based on the 1969 chipset, you basically have it.
And there you have it ... the websites that should be updating their websites with up-to-date information about Classic OS4.1 and have failed to update the compability list, and supported hardware list
Pricing and distribution are not decided from me. But AmigaOS 4.1 is not just a .1 update. It's far more than that. It's all of 4.1's new features, plus 4.1 Update 1, Update 2, and all of the fixes we've made and specific things for the Classic, like the Radeon support, the Solo-1 support, the SATA support, memory paging support, the Warp3D Permedia2 driver, and further things planned specifically for Classic in Update 3, it's not even comparable to 4.0 Classic at all.
Yes but all those updates were designed for the ACube PPC hardware, and they have just had to be converted to Classic PPC cards, which really shouldn't have been that difficult, and I for one, feel that the cost is being driven by greed, not real hard work - that's the way it feels to me, rightly or wrongly.
Also, as I got such a bad experience from OS4.0, and I'm sure others had the same feeling, I think that Hyperion should be making it up to us all who paid for OS4.0, and got such a bad experience to somehow put it right by offering an update price, not a full version price bump.
We invested in an OS that didn't do what it set out to achieve, which is partly the reason for this release, which in many ways justifies my reasoning.
As I stated before, they assisted us to help with PCI configuration of the Mediator and they supplied the FastATA driver. Certainly if they wanted to (or could) provide more they could/can.
As I've already said, I get the distinct impression that Elbox know there's no way to implement what Hyperion want in the way of TRUE DMA for the Mediator, and don't want to confess this to their customers who'd be disappointed to find out that's the case, and Hyperion are not about to say that either. So they're both tight lipped about the subject, so no way forward is being found, as there is no concession by Hyperion on a way to implement any form or an alternative form of DMA for the Mediator that can be used in Classic OS4.1.
Thank you, and thanks for asking the questions. I'm just trying to defend the product, obviously, since I know it so well and worked on it so long, but ultimately it is up to you if you buy it or not.
I understand your position, but a variation on the DMA hack that is agreeable to all would be a better solution, rather than the lack of any DMA. Someone needs a kick up the backside, and it isn't you or me. :D
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I read your comments that the SOLO has to have the ESS 1969 chipset, but I just looked at a SOLO card on ebay, and it shows the chipset as ES1938S, so is this chipset also supported, as there is no information about only certain chipsets being viable under Classic OS4.1, just the fact that you have to have an ESS SOLO soundcard.
Please clarify the specifics of the chipset, as this seems to be a possible stumbling block.
I just asked the developer and he said the ESS 1938, 1946 and 1969 *should* work. If not we probably just have to add the Device / vendor ID. Which we can do.
The only card tested currently is the one with the 1969 chipset. I don't have any of the other cards nor does anyone else on the beta/developer team. But since those chips are in the same family it should work providing we have the device / vendor ID's. So if you have such a card and it's recognized on the PCI bus, but not working with AHI use the Ranger utility to get the vendor / device ID and I'll pass the info to the developer and we'll update it.
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We now have 128MB SIMMs in stock for Blizzard PPC (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=107) - ideal for using AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035)
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We now have 128MB SIMMs in stock for Blizzard PPC (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=107) - ideal for using AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035)
Just had quick look at them pity they're double sided, I use these already in my BPPC and plain Blizzard060 and they work fine, but I've been looking for ages for a single sided 128MB SIMM for my plain Blizzard060 as the double side ones are so thick that the only way I can keep them in place is by using a cable type shown in the picture below... :(
I was just wondering do you have or do you ever get in single sided 128MB SIMMS for these boards as I'd love to replace my 060 one with a SIMM that actually fits... :)
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=102&pictureid=557)
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128MB Single sided are very rare- I have one in my A1200 at home but we have been unable to source them new recently.
The new 128MB SIMMs we have in stock measure: 108 mm x 29 mm x 8 mm
They are 50ns memory at the moment as well
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128MB Single sided are very rare- I have one in my A1200 at home but we have been unable to source them new recently.
The new 128MB SIMMs we have in stock measure: 108 mm x 29 mm x 8 mm
They are 50ns memory at the moment as well
I already have a pair of 128MB SIMMs already in my BlizzardPPC, but I think they are 60ns. Do you have any bustest / ragemem results for the 50ns parts?
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Sure, I can run this test today: what settings do you want me to apply in the BlizzardPPC memory config?
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Sure, I can run this test today: what settings do you want me to apply in the BlizzardPPC memory config?
I would suggest that if it works reliably with all the waitstates disabled, then try that. Otherwise I'd suggest testing it set to 60ns mode and in either case, compare it against some other 60ns rated memory.
There's really no rush for this, I was just curious.
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128MB Single sided are very rare- I have one in my A1200 at home but we have been unable to source them new recently.
The new 128MB SIMMs we have in stock measure: 108 mm x 29 mm x 8 mm
They are 50ns memory at the moment as well
Thanks for the info, just checked the dimensions of my SIMMS they are 9.35mm thick, so I don't think the difference of 1.35mm is going to help... :(
(Pity... Hmm... wonder if I could sand them down a wee bit... :))
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PCI network cards compatible with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035) now available:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1041
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I just asked the developer and he said the ESS 1938, 1946 and 1969 *should* work. If not we probably just have to add the Device / vendor ID. Which we can do.
Well has the ESS chipsets 1938 & 1946 SOLO cards been tested to see if they work with Classic OS 4.1?
I mean, how can this Classic OS 4.1 be released with the announcement that the SOLO card is supported, when just one of the chipsets is supported without being more specific.
More testing should have been done, or more specific information should have been released before the announcement that the SOLO soundcard works with Classic OS4.1, I mean it's just misleading, yet again.
The only card tested currently is the one with the 1969 chipset. I don't have any of the other cards nor does anyone else on the beta/developer team. But since those chips are in the same family it should work providing we have the device / vendor ID's. So if you have such a card and it's recognized on the PCI bus, but not working with AHI use the Ranger utility to get the vendor / device ID and I'll pass the info to the developer and we'll update it.
Still waiting for the update?
There does not seem to be much going on with Classic OS4.1, and there seems to be little information being divluged by people who might have bought Classic OS4.1 prepared to sing it's praises, which in itself is not inspiring.
Great !! AmigaKit have got RTL8029AS NIC PCI cards, but what about the 'supported' SOLO cards, and the 'supported' SATA cards?
After all, those who want to add the latest features of Classic OS4.1 will also need the hardware to be able to use it. Seems we've been waiting a good while for Classic OS4.1, and in all that time the main stockist of the software doesn't/hasn't even thought through, or acquired the hardware to sell to people who'd be interested in supporting the OS by buying it. It's all a mess, that should have been avoided by better planning.
Any comment AmigaKit?
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Well has the ESS chipsets 1938 & 1946 SOLO cards been tested to see if they work with Classic OS 4.1?
I mean, how can this Classic OS 4.1 be released with the announcement that the SOLO card is supported, when just one of the chipsets is supported without being more specific.
More testing should have been done, or more specific information should have been released before the announcement that the SOLO soundcard works with Classic OS4.1, I mean it's just misleading, yet again.
Still waiting for the update?
There does not seem to be much going on with Classic OS4.1, and there seems to be little information being divluged by people who might have bought Classic OS4.1 prepared to sing it's praises, which in itself is not inspiring.
Great !! AmigaKit have got RTL8029AS NIC PCI cards, but what about the 'supported' SOLO cards, and the 'supported' SATA cards?
After all, those who want to add the latest features of Classic OS4.1 will also need the hardware to be able to use it. Seems we've been waiting a good while for Classic OS4.1, and in all that time the main stockist of the software doesn't/hasn't even thought through, or acquired the hardware to sell to people who'd be interested in supporting the OS by buying it. It's all a mess, that should have been avoided by better planning.
Any comment AmigaKit?
Hi Nearly Right, lots going on but just not in the Amiga.org forum. Expect further announcements from Hyperion. I have a report from one user that his ESS Solo-1 card with the 1938 chipset is working. I have two different cards here with the 1969 chipset - both working. BUT - as for the Solo-1 cards, and other PCI cards, such as the Radeon cards, there are 100's of variants of these cards out there and there is no possible way for us to support or test all of them.
I'm afraid you'll just have to purchase a card that is on the hardware compatibility list (which is on my website), and even then, unless you purchase the exact card that was tested, it may not work. Since AmigaKit is now starting to stock compatible cards, that is probably the best place to look.
http://www.hd-zone.com is my site with an unofficial hardware compatibility list.
Darren
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with a little modifcation Blizzard PPC card can take *any* simm module.
one modifcation can be done by most users,the other it's recommended a expert should do this to avoid damage to the card.
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lots going on but just not in the Amiga.org forum.
Pity the information isn't at some central point that is directly connected to Hyperion or the software distributors, but you should take a LOT of credit for all the help you are handing out, which is very welcome, but frankly it's a disgrace of Hyperion and AmigaKit.
Expect further announcements from Hyperion.
But when and on whose website? It's all dragging on longer that it should. An important OS release should have been better prepared and complete than the current lacklustre situation we find ourselves in, IMHO.
I have a report from one user that his ESS Solo-1 card with the 1938 chipset is working.
That is more reassuring, but has that person supplied the specific card manufacturer, and model of the card that works with the 1938 chipset under Classic OS4.1, so we can all know which card is definitely OK to use with Classic OS4.1, and can consider buying it if we come across one the same?
I have two different cards here with the 1969 chipset - both working. BUT - as for the Solo-1 cards, and other PCI cards, such as the Radeon cards, there are 100's of variants of these cards out there and there is no possible way for us to support or test all of them.
OK, I suppose that's true, but the ones that are reported as working, all the relevant information about that card should be made available for us all to be aware that's it is compatible with Classic OS4.1. Will you ensure this gets done? I suppose the update would be updated on your website, which is very helpful, but there's room for a little more specific information as I've mentioned.
I'm afraid you'll just have to purchase a card that is on the hardware compatibility list (which is on my website), and even then, unless you purchase the exact card that was tested, it may not work.
But that's my point so far, some of the information you've just mentioned to me, such as the SOLO 1938 chipset soundcard is not on your website, so that needs updating, once it's confirmed it does work correctly, and any specific changes/modification that are needed to any system file to get it to work OK.
Since AmigaKit is now starting to stock compatible cards, that is probably the best place to look.
Yes but there is still no mention of compatible soundcards, or SATA cards being stocked.
http://www.hd-zone.com is my site with an unofficial hardware compatibility list.
Seen your site, it's a great help, but it needs a little more up-to-date information on there, but frankly it should not have to be you doing it, the impetus, and responsibility should be Hyperion's and AmigaKit's, but I for one am really grateful for you going to all this trouble to help those of us interested and still considering hopefully the benefits of purchasing Classic OS4.1, but I need some more convincing as yet.
The feature about the Soundblaster 128 soundcard being used to channel the sound was novel, but should be fully supported by the Classic OS 4.1 AHI system. It's a terrible shame that it's not, as those cards are much better at what they do, and much easier to come by as a second hand soundcard.
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@Nearly-Right
If I were a gambling man (which I'm not, but let's pretend otherwise), I would wager you wouldn't buy OS4.1 for classic if it came with hand-tested-by-Darren-himself-and-guaranteed-compatible expansions and personally installed by Carl Moppet all at no extra charge :)
First you complain there is no decent information on supported expansions. Then a compiled list is provided. Then you complain it's not "official", which fair enough, it isn't, but the guy providing it has been testing 4.1 classic since day zero, so it is as good as you would get from any of the developers. Then you complain that some of the available information is ambiguous and needs further clarification, which he goes off to try and find out about. No matter what the guy writes or how much he goes out of his way to answer your questions, your posts fall back onto everything being a disgrace, taking too long etc. and for all the overtures to applauding his effort, you just end up back at square one. I'm personally waiting for the Elbox intra-card DMA issue to resurface as soon as you get bored of making Darren run around answering your questions.
Let's be totally open and honest here. You got your fingers burnt with 4.0 classic and there's no way you are going to buy 4.1 classic on principal. I totally get it, it's not as if you are the only person that feels that way. However, for anybody else, 4.1 classic is available, supports more hardware than 4.0 classic did and a growing list of confirmed working expansions exists, officially sanctioned or not, the information is available and improving for anybody contemplating it.
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@Nearly-Right
You got your fingers burnt with 4.0 classic and there's no way you are going to buy 4.1 classic on principal. I totally get it, it's not as if you are the only person that feels that way.
No being biased here but... ;)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Funny/AmigaDistributer01.jpg)
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@Nearly-Right
If I were a gambling man (which I'm not, but let's pretend otherwise), I would wager you wouldn't buy OS4.1 for classic if it came with hand-tested-by-Darren-himself-and-guaranteed-compatible expansions and personally installed by Carl Moppet all at no extra charge :)
First you complain there is no decent information on supported expansions. Then a compiled list is provided. Then you complain it's not "official", which fair enough, it isn't, but the guy providing it has been testing 4.1 classic since day zero, so it is as good as you would get from any of the developers. Then you complain that some of the available information is ambiguous and needs further clarification, which he goes off to try and find out about. No matter what the guy writes or how much he goes out of his way to answer your questions, your posts fall back onto everything being a disgrace, taking too long etc. and for all the overtures to applauding his effort, you just end up back at square one. I'm personally waiting for the Elbox intra-card DMA issue to resurface as soon as you get bored of making Darren run around answering your questions.
Let's be totally open and honest here. You got your fingers burnt with 4.0 classic and there's no way you are going to buy 4.1 classic on principal. I totally get it, it's not as if you are the only person that feels that way. However, for anybody else, 4.1 classic is available, supports more hardware than 4.0 classic did and a growing list of confirmed working expansions exists, officially sanctioned or not, the information is available and improving for anybody contemplating it.
Thanks Karlos,
This is the one application for OS4.1 I'm actually interested in.
BTW - Where the A1 benchmarks (as you can see I'm not a patient man)?
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BTW - Where the A1 benchmarks (as you can see I'm not a patient man)?
It's not really a benchmark unless I can persuade DoomAttack to run a timedemo. Not sure how you do that :-/
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If you are a classic user in 2011, you are into retro/vintage computing where it's important that *all* your old Amiga games and application runs, and runs flawlessly.
I doubt that. Most of the classic guys here don´t own a vanilla 68000 CPU nor Kickstart 1.X ROMs. They won´t be able to run about 40% of all amiga titles released before 1990.
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Look how much software has been released for OS4 since it became available. Discounting ports, at this rate your PPC hardware will fail before anything comes out.
Hey hey! I have never had any Hardware fail on me, well except for two of my Macs. But then it´s a MorphOS problem, isn´t it?
There is some nice AmigaOS4 software out there and if people don´t bitch around too much there is more to come. But of course you won´t rival Linux at that.
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OK, here is the list of some of the AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035) supported hardware we have in stock right now:
SATA 4-Port Raid card for Mediator (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1042)
10Mbps PCI Network Card (Mediator) (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1041)
Radeon 9250 PCI 128MB Graphics Card (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=775)
Subway USB (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=137)
We sold out of 128MB Memory (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=107) last week, but it will be back in stock in a few days.
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OK, here is the list of some of the AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1035) supported hardware we have in stock right now:
SATA 4-Port Raid card for Mediator (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1042)
10Mbps PCI Network Card (Mediator) (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1041)
Radeon 9250 PCI 128MB Graphics Card (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=775)
Subway USB (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=137)
We sold out of 128MB Memory (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=107) last week, but it will be back in stock in a few days.
Good stuff, i've updated my site with the info - see my signature :)
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Goose
Maybe if Hyperion hadnt spread lies about Ralph S. and Morphos guys about them being crooks and stealing code ( with no proof presented ever even when called out) you users with Phase5 gear would have drivers.
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Hey hey! I have never had any Hardware fail on me, well except for two of my Macs. But then it´s a MorphOS problem, isn´t it?
Of course not. That's an Ismart problem with his Apple produced hardware.
MorphOS can not be blamed (and my Mac's running smoothly while running on a third party CPU).
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Has anyone tried to mount a 604ev on a CSPPC (in place of the standard 604e)?
Apple used these (referred to as 'Mach5' processor) in some early Mac model. They had speeds up to 400Mhz with some users overclocking to 450Mhz.
Could be a good boost for OS4.1 classic.
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@Nearly-Right
If I were a gambling man (which I'm not, but let's pretend otherwise), I would wager you wouldn't buy OS4.1 for classic if it came with hand-tested-by-Darren-himself-and-guaranteed-compatible expansions and personally installed by Carl Moppet all at no extra charge :)
I would seriously consider buying it if I could trust it did all 'it was supposed to do on the tin'.
Frankly, I don't know how Hyperion have the cheek to ask Classic OS4.0 users to dip again into their bank accounts, and ask for another £100 (approx) for a virtually repeat product, never mind what's been added, as that seems to be basically what was put in for the ACube boards, etc, so just had to be modified for Classic hardware, that they got wrong the first time around, and haven't been prepared to be fair and offer an upgrade price to those users who got a very poor, barely working product, which they ditched soon after it was released.
Don't point any blame at me, the release information is flawed, they say the SOLO soundcard works, that's after it's been 'thoroughly tested' and 'developed' for about 3 years and within a week or 2 of it's release the first Amiga guinea-pig puts a question forward about a SOLO card, that reveals the card's not working as it's got a different ESS chip in it than the testers have been using.
Talk about poor betatesting, and poor release information. It's a commercial product, and should have been tested with all the chipsets those cards were released with before such a statement was made. At this moment it is 'not fit for purpose', and until it is I won't be handing over my £100 (approx).
I'll need to see some buyer's reviews of the Classic OS4.1 and how easy it is to use/install, and the benefits, if any over OS3.9, as I consider that trying to install, and get Classic OS4.0 on my A1200 BPPC was punishment enough. So specifically I'd like to see information for an A1200 BPPC system, as I've only seen any Classic OS4.1 buyer's information being installed on A4000s, and not on a similar system to mine.
First you complain there is no decent information on supported expansions. Then a compiled list is provided. Then you complain it's not "official", which fair enough, it isn't, but the guy providing it has been testing 4.1 classic since day zero, so it is as good as you would get from any of the developers.
As I don't have access to the betatesters list how am I supposed to know he's been testing the OS4.1 for Classic systems for those 3 years until you said so?
But as I've just said, the information released shows that the SOLO ESS soundcard, which was supposed to work under OS4.0, now is also shown to have problems under Classic OS4.1, as they didn't check more than one particular chipset of the SOLO cards that were released. They have only released this one (SOLO - as in ONLY) supported soundcard for use with Classic OS4.1 and they haven't done their homework/betatesting properly on just the one soundcard they are prepared to support - in 3 years of development!
Please, stop whining at me, and whine at the people who brought you yet another under-tested product that they want your money for. Let's be reasonable, if you bought such a product in the High Street you'd be back at the retailer demanding your money back in similar circumstances.
Then you complain that some of the available information is ambiguous and needs further clarification, which he goes off to try and find out about.
I left the chipset highlighted problem for a few days, for some reply to say it had been fixed/resolved, but I didn't get a reply, or see a reply to that problem in this thread, so a very good, and fair, reason to ask if it's been done, as this seems to be the only place that anyone is listening to questions, and replying to them, about the problems that are surfacing with installing and using Classic OS4.1.
No matter what the guy writes or how much he goes out of his way to answer your questions, your posts fall back onto everything being a disgrace, taking too long etc. and for all the overtures to applauding his effort, you just end up back at square one. I'm personally waiting for the Elbox intra-card DMA issue to resurface as soon as you get bored of making Darren run around answering your questions.
As you've already commented I've thanked Darren for his efforts, but releasing a commercial product after such a long development, with initial flaws like these, smacks of an undeveloped testing regime, or they'd have been better/fully aware of what will and won't work with the Classic OS4.1.
Let's be totally open and honest here. You got your fingers burnt with 4.0 classic
Yes that's true,
and there's no way you are going to buy 4.1 classic on principal.
That's not true.
I totally get it, it's not as if you are the only person that feels that way. However, for anybody else, 4.1 classic is available, supports more hardware than 4.0 classic did and a growing list of confirmed working expansions exists, officially sanctioned or not, the information is available and improving for anybody contemplating it.
If I am to seriously consider buying a product I like to be happy to part with my money, in the knowledge, and reasonably enough with confidence, it will do what I expect it to do, from what I have been told it will do, but so far Classic OS4.1 doesn't. It falls far short of those expectations, and until it meets them it will be a product I cannot trust, especially compared to OS3.9, which offers features I'd like to have in OS4.1 but as yet haven't appeared.
I am grateful for all the information that Darren has updated, and continues to release, but so far it is not enough to comvince me, and I suspect a good few others.
When the Classic OS4.1 was released there was no mention in the release information which SATA cards were supported, such as which cards/chipsets were compatible/tested. The information about the SOLO soundcards I've already commented on as that should have been tested properly, and wasn't it seems, and there is nothing less than a 'gulity as charged' acceptable in those circumstances.
You are pointing the finger at me for being critical of a repeat Classic OS4.x that again is flawed, when every effort should have been made by everyone involved in its testing to get it right this time, or don't you think Hyperion and the betatester team owe that to any intended purchaser(s)?
All this is measured against the fact that Hyperion want us to pay more than you'd pay for a Windows OS, which offers so many more features, and does actually deliver 'what it says on the tin', I'm sorry to have to say.
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Of course not. That's an Ismart problem with his Apple produced hardware.
MorphOS can not be blamed.
It wasn´t about blamin MorphOS for Apples crap. But Macs fail often enough to give MorphOS users second thoughts about them. Refuting the argument that PPC Amigas were likely to fail before there was even more AmigaOS 4 software - which is of course a bogus claim by itself.
EDIT: Don´t get me wrong. Apple makes fine hardware that is superior to many PC makers. "Apple crap" refers to those Macs that aren´t produced well, which - in new products and in times of high demand - Apple has repeatedly sold despite of knowing better.
A friend of mine ordered 3 recent iMacs, before he got one that was bearable enogh to keep.
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It wasn´t about blamin MorphOS for Apples crap. But Macs fail often enough to give MorphOS users second thoughts about them. Refuting the argument that PPC Amigas were likely to fail before there was even more AmigaOS 4 software - which is of course a bogus claim by itself.
I had three different Amiga 1200 in eight years. Two of them failed for no apparent reason. Myabe just bad luck but then Commodore was not best known for QA.
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@Nearly-Right
For whats its worth I personally felt OS4.0 for classic should have had some more updates. Some beta testers were running hybrid 4.0 / 4.1 beta installs.
So in June 2009 I decided I would volenteer to update the distribution. This was before update one was released for the AmigaOne, SAM and PEG2. The very first ISO was created by myself in ~June 2009 and was a 4.0 hybrid with a few items taken from the AmigaOne 4.1 CD as a proof of concept nothing more.
In theory OS4.1 classic could have been released with an update1 baseline at roughly the same time as the other platforms, but it just wasn't mature enough and hadn't had enough of a testing cycle.
After ~2 years of working on this in our spare time and bugging developers to the point that they have probably taken us of their christmas card list it got to the point where it could be released with an update 2 baseline and utilitise the current driver base bar a few exceptions namely the drivers which use DMA.
Its not been abbandoned. The distribution iso is activly maintained now by myself, and is on par with the other platforms.
We ares still working hard raising bugs accross all the platforms and bugging the developers (excuse the pun). The classic will benefit from the developments being made to the A1, SAM, PEG2 and potentially future platforms.
Dont ask me about time scales / release dates thats for management to decided and comment on but update 3 will be on the classic.
If you have any A1200 specific questions about OS4.1 Classic, I'll do my best to answer them.
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@Nearly-Right
For whats its worth I personally felt OS4.0 for classic should have had some more updates. Some beta testers were running hybrid 4.0 / 4.1 beta installs.
Thanks for that, nice to hear it as a developer's opinion, and I'm sure a lot of other people who bought Classic OS4.0 think the same, and maybe that's the main reason many owners of PPC boards are reluctant to purchase Classic OS4.1, as that is certainly one of mine. The upgrade option should be pursued, and Hyperion should relent on that front, as it is only fair. I wouldn't mind paying 50-60% of the current asking price, but full price is a bit extreme, IMHO.
So in June 2009 I decided I would volenteer to update the distribution. This was before update one was released for the AmigaOne, SAM and PEG2. The very first ISO was created by myself in ~June 2009 and was a 4.0 hybrid with a few items taken from the AmigaOne 4.1 CD as a proof of concept nothing more.
In theory OS4.1 classic could have been released with an update1 baseline at roughly the same time as the other platforms, but it just wasn't mature enough and hadn't had enough of a testing cycle.
After ~2 years of working on this in our spare time and bugging developers to the point that they have probably taken us of their christmas card list it got to the point where it could be released with an update 2 baseline and utilitise the current driver base bar a few exceptions namely the drivers which use DMA.
I see, but as you were offering to update the OS4.0 software, almost for free, it seems, Hyperion should have been far more accomodating, and helpful, and not in the least reluctant for your help, IMHO.
Its not been abbandoned. The distribution iso is activly maintained now by myself, and is on par with the other platforms.
We ares still working hard raising bugs accross all the platforms and bugging the developers (excuse the pun). The classic will benefit from the developments being made to the A1, SAM, PEG2 and potentially future platforms.
That is very reassuring, but is it likely that more hardware is going to be supported directly in the Mediator?
Particularly the USB side of things, as that is a major drawback if you don't have a Subway in an A1200, or another type of USB card in any of the big-box Amigas, as there is no USB2 possible for the Classic A1200 without owning the Spider card at this time, and the other main OS's have USB3 at the very least thesedays.
Is there no-one who can/will write the USB sub-system that will allow the Sirion stack to utilise a generic/specific chipset from a readily available PCI USB card in the computing marketplace to function for Classic OS4.1?
Dont ask me about time scales / release dates thats for management to decided and comment on but update 3 will be on the classic.
If you have any A1200 specific questions about OS4.1 Classic, I'll do my best to answer them.
Again, that's good news, but do you have the A1200 BPPC running OS4.1?
Have you done a clean install of it yourself onto a HDD to give some information as to the ease of the install, problems to watch out for, any hardware from the 68k/OS3.x side of things that will affect the functionality of it, or just lock-up the hardware, and won't work until it's removed, such as the Subway driver has to use the Sirion driver I believe, but any other hardware that causes known conflicts?
What 68k OS3.x programs are you aware of that will definitely run on Classic OS4.1?
Will there be Mediator PCI SCSI support under Classic OS4.1, as I use my SCSI scanner a lot, and I don't want to be having a dual boot system, with all the problems that it may cause. I am told the Squirrel SCSI can be used with Classic OS4.1, and as the Blizzard SCSI is not available under Classic OS4.1 this is a real drawback for me. Any hope you can give, such as any contact you have had, or contact you might consider to get Darren Stevens persuaded/helped to get his Mediator SCSI driver adapted to Classic OS4.1 would be a start? It's not a bootable SCSI system as yet, well not under OS3.x it isn't.
Thanks for your reply, it's been better to understand some of the background to why Classic OS4.1 has seen the light of day, and I for one am PROUD of you for going to all the trouble for all of the remaining Amiga devotees.
I have been thought of, in this thread, as being one of those people who is just slamming the development for the sake of it, but I am not. I want Classic OS4.1 to be viable for me, and for others. I know it's been done basically on a shoestring but please support the more serious side of Amiga computing, and not just the gaming side of things. I saw the Quake demo, but I'd much rather see the PageStream, ImageFX, and Scanquix side of things than games, but maybe that's just me. :D
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Thanks for that, nice to hear it as a developer's opinion, and I'm sure a lot of other people who bought Classic OS4.0 think the same, and maybe that's the main reason many owners of PPC boards are reluctant to purchase Classic OS4.1, as that is certainly one of mine. The upgrade option should be pursued, and Hyperion should relent on that front, as it is only fair. I wouldn't mind paying 50-60% of the current asking price, but full price is a bit extreme, IMHO.
Firstly I'm not one of the developers but just one of the OS4 Beta testers like Darren and Karlos, since around late 2003.
As for an upgrade option thats down to Hyperion and Amigakit. Your question would be best put to Amigakit.
That is very reassuring, but is it likely that more hardware is going to be supported directly in the Mediator?
There are lots of things as an Amiga user I'd like to see supported in the Mediator.
But thats down to the development team.
I would suggest emailing Elbox to see if are willing to update some of their drivers. The AmigaOS4.1 SDK is also available for free download.
Particularly the USB side of things, as that is a major drawback if you don't have a Subway in an A1200, or another type of USB card in any of the big-box Amigas, as there is no USB2 possible for the Classic A1200 without owning the Spider card at this time, and the other main OS's have USB3 at the very least thesedays.
At this time on the A1200 USB is limited to:-
Desktop PPC A1200 (No Expansion Bus) - Subway on Clockport / Poseidon 4.4
Tower PPC A1200 (No Expansion Bus) - Subway on Clockport / Poseidon 4.4
Tower PPC A1200 Mediator - Subway on Clockport / Poseidon 4.4
Tower PPC A1200 Zorro2 - Subway on Clockport or XSURF-3CC Clockport / Poseidon 4.4
Tower PPC A1200 Zorro2 - Deneb in Zorro2 slot / Poseidon 4.4
A native Deneb driver was mentioned in the press release but this would only be benifical to PPC Amigas with Zorro slots.
Is there no-one who can/will write the USB sub-system that will allow the Sirion stack to utilise a generic/specific chipset from a readily available PCI USB card in the computing marketplace to function for Classic OS4.1?
It would require implementing Elbox's DMA Hack into the kernel as PCI EHCI cards require DMA and don't work in PIO mode AFAIK
Again, that's good news, but do you have the A1200 BPPC running OS4.1?
Yes in various config I also move my ppc to the Z2 machine when needed. See Sig :-)
Have you done a clean install of it yourself onto a HDD
Hundreds and Hundreds. I had the job of creating the installer and putting the iso together.
It was made on an A1200, no PC's were harmed during the creation of this product ;-)
to give some information as to the ease of the install, problems to watch out for, any hardware from the 68k/OS3.x side of things that will affect the functionality of it, or just lock-up the hardware, and won't work until it's removed, such as the Subway driver has to use the Sirion driver I believe, but any other hardware that causes known conflicts?
The install is a breeze.
Firstly the bootfloppy load residents a new 68K scsi.device and then mounts CDfilesystem and then boots the OS4.1 kickstart modules off the CD.
The Amiga then soft reset and is running on the PPC as with OS4.0.
If you have replaced your floppy drive with a HxC2000 floppy emulator don't worry because there is an adf of the boot floppy on the CD to use with those SDCard based emulators.
If you have removed your floppy you can boot into 3.x and start the install from there.
A lot of work has gone into the installer as it support AGA, Zorro and PCI solutions.
If your running on a mediator with a pci voodoo / Radeon the installer will open on 1024x768.
Zorro2 installer opens on a 800x600 screen for legacy z2 cards.
AGA opens on a PAL or NTSC screen depending on your base 1200.
BVision / Cvision is a special case too.
CVision / Bvision in PPC cards flashed with the GREX firmware are not autodetectable so the installer will use its fall back AGA mode.
Obviously AGA installer is used if there is no graphics card.
AGA also has a special theme akin to 3.1 look which vastly frees up chip RAM. This can be used on 2MB Zorro cards as well to free up some of their video RAM and is simply accessed by clicking on a icon in the amidock. You can then save this setting as default if you wish.
Anyway back to the Installer
Your a presented with a menu system that allows you to select your locale, prep your HD, install the OS or boot to WB using the CD as a LIVECD.
Once installed reboot and remove the CD and your presented with the post install that sets up some softlinks and creates the font cache for applications like timberwolf.
Also you can then change your screenmode, locale, ahi prefs etc before exiting into WB for the first time.
As for removing hardware. You can keep the subway in you don't need to disable anything as only the highway is supported by sirion on classics.
You can keep your squirelscsi in that doesn't interfere with the install.
You can keep your IDEFix-Express in that doesn't interfere either.
MK3 powerflyer is supported by a new driver supplied by Elbox
As for Z2 I have a Multiface3, DENEB, XSURF3CC, CV643D squirrel scsi and none of that needs to be removed on that for the install.
Weve put together a large FAQ that covers all the things that came up during testing its included with CD. There is also a 28 Page Manual covering the install procedure and the FAQ is 16 Pages.
A lot of which is on the hyperion blog at hyperion-etertainment.biz
What 68k OS3.x programs are you aware of that will definitely run on Classic OS4.1?
The ones I still use off the top of my head:-
FinalWriter 5 / 97
MakeCD 3.2
TVPaint
PPaint 8
Photogenics 4.4
IBrowse 2.4
Term 4.8
Ftpd
TurboCalc
CodeAudio
But have migrated to OS4.X equivalents for most other things like pic viewers, mp3 players
Will there be Mediator PCI SCSI support under Classic OS4.1, as I use my SCSI scanner a lot, and I don't want to be having a dual boot system, with all the problems that it may cause.
Dual boot is easy you just need two partitions under the first 4GB on your harddrive
For example DH0 and DH1
OS 4.1 on DH0 and OS3.X on DH1, make them both bootable one with a higher boot priority than the other. Your Amiga will boot from the partition with the highest boot priority. Just swap the priorities around in hdtoolbox or mediatoolbox and save then reboot.
Just make sure that the 68K l:fastfilesystem and l:smartfilesystem are in the RDB on your HD. The ones from l: not the ppc ones from kickstart
I am told the Squirrel SCSI can be used with Classic OS4.1, and as the Blizzard SCSI is not
available under Classic OS4.1 this is a real drawback for me. Any hope you can give, such as any contact you have had, or contact you might consider to get Darren Stevens persuaded/helped to get his Mediator SCSI driver adapted to Classic OS4.1 would be a start? It's not a bootable SCSI system as yet, well not under OS3.x it isn't.
I have mounted a CDROM with the squirrel, but have not SCSI HD to test a HD.
I have also added the device to the kicklayout as a default kickstartmodule and the system booted ok.
With regards to the BlizzPPC.device I read that Karlos might pick this up after he's finished updating warp3D.
As for the SCSI in the mediator Amiga OS4.1 has an LSI scsi driver already but again it would require implementing Elbox's DMA hack as its DMA based.
Thanks for your reply, it's been better to understand some of the background to why Classic OS4.1 has seen the light of day, and I for one am PROUD of you for going to all the trouble for all of the remaining Amiga devotees.
No Problem. Its a team effort.
I have been thought of, in this thread, as being one of those people who is just slamming the development for the sake of it, but I am not. I want Classic OS4.1 to be viable for me, and for others. I know it's been done basically on a shoestring but please support the more serious side of Amiga computing, and not just the gaming side of things. I saw the Quake demo, but I'd much rather see the PageStream, ImageFX, and Scanquix side of things than games, but maybe that's just me. :D
[/Quote]
I'll get back to you on Pagestream I have V3 and V2 ImageFX. I'll also try my Epson SCSI scanner with the squirrel scsi and report back. Give me a few day. V busy at the mo.
Few 68K apps shown running here:-
http://www.amibay.com/showpost.php?p=171132&postcount=149
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Firstly I'm not one of the developers but just one of the OS4 Beta testers like Darren and Karlos
OK, understood, but you'd obviously got the interest, that Hyperion lost after they released Classic OS4.0, and still have, which is good for us all, so big thanks to you, and the others who pursued the idea like you.
There are lots of things as an Amiga user I'd like to see supported in the Mediator. But thats down to the development team.
Is the DMA 'hack' driver possible to re-write so that it would be Classic OS4.1 legal?
I've sent messages to Elbox about the DMA pronlem with the Mediator, but had no response, but then, I know that they are on the betatesters list so surely they can be approached directly by yourselves to get them to implement it, if it is possible to do so, as it's a feature definitely worth having. I believe the code is in ASM at the moment, but I would have hoped they still know how it works, and change the code to system legal code to re-implement it, if it's possible to do so.
At this time on the A1200 USB is limited to:-
Desktop PPC A1200 (No Expansion Bus) - Subway on Clockport / Poseidon 4.4
Tower PPC A1200 Zorro2 - Deneb in Zorro2 slot / Poseidon 4.4
A native Deneb driver was mentioned in the press release but this would only be benifical to PPC Amigas with Zorro slots.
The Subway card would cause me to remove my HyperCOM parallel/serial card that I use extensively, unless a 4 way clockport add-on card is supported under Classic OS4.1, so I need to know if a 4-way clockport card has been successfully betatested during development?
I take it we are basically talking about the Micronik A1200 Zorro board for using a DENEB card in an A1200, is that correct? If so, that board does not support PCI slots so you'd lose out on PCI hardware, in particular the GFX card enhancement which I consider is a major feature of Classic OS4.1, wouldn't you agree? If so, that Zorro option, for me, would have to be avoided to allow the access for the more important PCI slots in the Mediator.
I have a Mediator TX, so do you have that model, 6 PCI slots?
It would require implementing Elbox's DMA Hack into the kernel as PCI EHCI cards require DMA and don't work in PIO mode AFAIK.
I think you are correct there, from the little I know, and have been told. The DMA 'hack' would be really beneficial as it would allow lots of other cards to be added back to the Mediator slots in due course, but as far as I know Hyperion are dead against it, unless you and the other betatesters feel it should be supported, I know I do already, but if you can also convince Hyperion of its worthiness.
Yes in various config I also move my ppc to the Z2 machine when needed. See Sig :-)
Seen it, and glad you have a few assorted setups. I offered my services for the betatesting, but was not 'honoured' with being able to help out. :(
Hundreds and Hundreds. I had the job of creating the installer and putting the iso together.
It was made on an A1200
I didn't know that, I got the distinct feeling that it was created on an A4000, as the A4000 seems to be more enhanced for Classic OS4.1, but that's a pleasant surprise.
The install is a breeze.
Firstly the bootfloppy load residents a new 68K scsi.device and then mounts CDfilesystem and then boots the OS4.1 kickstart modules off the CD.
The Amiga then soft reset and is running on the PPC as with OS4.0.
So is the FastATA device automatically found and used as a native scsi/ide device?
If you have replaced your floppy drive with a HxC2000 floppy emulator don't worry because there is an adf of the boot floppy on the CD to use with those SDCard based emulators.
I've not, but wasn't aware that feature existed, so thanks for that nugget. :D
If you have removed your floppy you can boot into 3.x and start the install from there.
A lot of work has gone into the installer as it support AGA, Zorro and PCI solutions.
If your running on a mediator with a pci voodoo / Radeon the installer will open on 1024x768.
Zorro2 installer opens on a 800x600 screen for legacy z2 cards.
AGA opens on a PAL or NTSC screen depending on your base 1200.
I wasn't aware of all that. Is all this mentioned in the OS4.1 Installation booklet?
What other info is in the booklet?
Classic OS4.0 Quick Installation guide did not give enough info to people coming into OS4.0 'cold' like I was, as kicklayouts, etc are all new, and I for one would like to know what goes where, and what affects what.
The OS4.0 Quick Installation booklet didn't give any details about the different colour error screens, nor has it since to my satisfaction, so are you in a position to give some insight into that part of the OS?
Is the 'S' directory still used, and are the kicklayout files in there, and are they editable, and what precautions are there if you mess up editing it, and can you start Classic OS4.1 with just a shell prompt, or is it far too complex to do that?
My OS4.0 got so messed up, that I never got back into it or the OS itself loaded after one successful boot into an AGA bootscreen, and then I changed it for Picasso RTG and then I just got constant reboot/error screen, and so gave up, it was all messed up, so even after 4 years of waiting for this upgrade I am still a novice with Classic OS4.x, as maybe many people who bought OS4.0 are.
BVision / Cvision is a special case too.
CVision / Bvision in PPC cards flashed with the GREX firmware are not autodetectable so the installer will use its fall back AGA mode.
Obviously AGA installer is used if there is no graphics card.
As for removing hardware. You can keep the subway in you don't need to disable anything as only the highway is supported by sirion on classics.
You can keep your squirelscsi in that doesn't interfere with the install.
You can keep your IDEFix-Express in that doesn't interfere either.
MK3 powerflyer is supported by a new driver supplied by Elbox
That all sounds fairly straightforward, and some it defintiely applies to my hardware.
As for Z2 I have a Multiface3, DENEB, XSURF3CC, CV643D squirrel scsi and none of that needs to be removed on that for the install.
I see no Radeon in your system there, but is the Radeon GFX card memory still able to be added to the system RAM from the Mediator PCI library under Classic OS4.1?
Weve put together a large FAQ that covers all the things that came up during testing its included with CD. There is also a 28 Page Manual covering the install procedure and the FAQ is 16 Pages.
Are all my above questions included in that FAQ or in the Installation booklet, such as the Squirrel SCSI, tested software list, and any known incompatibilites, etc.?
I understood that the FAQ was going to be uploaded to the Hyperion Blog pages before Classic OS4.1 was released, to provide people interested in buying it to make an informed decision about upgrading, but I haven't seen anything of that nature uploaded there. Will it be uploaded there soon?
A lot of which is on the hyperion blog at hyperion-etertainment.biz
The ones I still use off the top of my head:-
FinalWriter 5 / 97
MakeCD 3.2
TVPaint
PPaint 8
Photogenics 4.4
IBrowse 2.4
Term 4.8
Ftpd
TurboCalc
CodeAudio
OK, I've asked about a few more, so I'll wait a few days for your report on whether they are compatible or not, hopefully they will be.
But have migrated to OS4.X equivalents for most other things like pic viewers, mp3 players
Only natural you would, so you can test them, and also if you're happy with Classic OS4.1. Would you say you were happy with it as it is?
What else would you like to see included, particularly that would benefit the Mediator for Classic OS4.1?
Dual boot is easy you just need two partitions under the first 4GB on your harddrive
For example DH0 and DH1
OS 4.1 on DH0 and OS3.X on DH1, make them both bootable one with a higher boot priority than the other. Your Amiga will boot from the partition with the highest boot priority. Just swap the priorities around in hdtoolbox or mediatoolbox and save then reboot.
Just make sure that the 68K l:fastfilesystem and l:smartfilesystem are in the RDB on your HD. The ones from l: not the ppc ones from kickstart
How do you put them in your RDB? Are you talking about during initialisation and formatting the drive with fastfilesystem or smartfilesystem, or some other method of putting the files in the RDB?
I have mounted a CDROM with the squirrel, but have not SCSI HD to test a HD.
I have also added the device to the kicklayout as a default kickstartmodule and the system booted ok.
I'd still like a small tutorial on the kickstart and kicklayout modules and other system boot files, and how they affect the system booting, either here in this thread or in the FAQ that should be available on the Hyperion Blog, or upload it here if that's OK.
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With regards to the BlizzPPC.device I read that Karlos might pick this up after he's finished updating warp3D.
As for the SCSI in the mediator Amiga OS4.1 has an LSI scsi driver already but again it would require implementing Elbox's DMA hack as its DMA based.
Well that's a possible deal breaker unless the DMA 'hack' can be resolved. I need SCSI access to my scanner, and some HDD files, and SCSI DVD drives, so I think you and the team should pester Elbox more directly than I am able to do. It is obviously needed, but will they do it, or can they do it, or will they allow someone else to do it, or does the Classic OS4.1 need modifying to allow it to function? I really hope this problem can be resolved, as the Mediator offers so much more potentiial for the Classic systems if PCI hardware & drivers can be made functional under Classic OS4.1.
No Problem. Its a team effort.
You say that, and as I trust Darren, I also believe you mean it, which can't be said for all at Hyperion in my experience, I am really sorry to have to say.
I'll get back to you on Pagestream I have V3 and V2 ImageFX. I'll also try my Epson SCSI scanner with the squirrel scsi and report back. Give me a few day. V busy at the mo.
Many thanks for your efforts, and I'm feeling a lot more optimistic thanks to you and Darren so far. I haven't had much input from others, but I know Karl(OS) is also busy, so thanks for all you're doing as well Karl.
Few 68K apps shown running here:-
http://www.amibay.com/showpost.php?p=171132&postcount=149
Had a look at them, and was that Photogenics also running somewhere in there?
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@Nearly-Right
OK small update based on some quick tests for you
I can scan on my EPSON GT7000 scsi scanner using a Hisoft PCMCIA squirrel.
Betascan
You need to add squirrelscsi.device, betascan and the epson scanner driver to JIT Blacklist in compatibility prefs. The Betascan espon scanner driver will DSI on first use, as its buggy, but you can choose to ignore the DSI error in Grim Reaper and you can start scanning.
Scanquix
The config Scanner application crashes under OS4.1 but the scanner program works as long as you add GTLayout libs to the blacklist in compatability prefs.
I Imagine if you can set it up under 3.x there is no need to run the config utility under 4.1 as the config file will be valid.
FXScan (68K/WarpOS)
Works but you get the DSI if you choose the use the Betascan drivers. Again Ignore the DSI and away you go.
I managed to make a photocopy to a HP LaserJet 1100
ImageFX2
Sucessfully opened on a AGA screen I swapped it ro CV643D 1024x768 screen and then quit OK
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@Nearly-Right
OK small update based on some quick tests for you
I can scan on my EPSON GT7000 scsi scanner using a Hisoft PCMCIA squirrel.
OK, I have the very same scanner, and a Squirrel SCSI, so that's good, for a start
Betascan
Never really liked Betascan, as I always preferred Scanquix. I know the person who has the source files to Scanquix, and he is still a betatester for OS4.x, as far as I know.
Would access to the source help to track down why it's generating the errors, and then fix the program or the library?
I hope it wouldn't be much of a problem fixing it.
You need to add squirrelscsi.device, betascan and the epson scanner driver to JIT Blacklist in compatibility prefs. The Betascan espon scanner driver will DSI on first use, as its buggy, but you can choose to ignore the DSI error in Grim Reaper and you can start scanning.
OK, so please explain the acronym 'DSI', don't forget you've been using Classic OS4.x for sometime, wheras my Classic OS4.0 got itself banjaxed and I'm trying to come to terms with the new terms for Classic OS4.x as I go along
Scanquix
Always been good for me on OS3.x, but please go on
The config Scanner application crashes under OS4.1 but the scanner program works as long as you add GTLayout libs to the blacklist in compatability prefs.
OK, I think that's understandable, so it maybe just the GTLayout library that's where the trouble is for Classic OS4.1?
I Imagine if you can set it up under 3.x there is no need to run the config utility under 4.1 as the config file will be valid.
But if you need to change the settings again then you're going to have to use OS3.9 to be able to modify the prefs file, unless it's a simple matter of changing the logical layout of a text file or tooltype, but I'm not sure how it works, but that may be possible. So I'll have a look at the Scanquix prefs under OS3.x and see if it is.
I'd much prefer to be able to modify any of the settings of Scanquix under OS4.1 if I needed to, so getting the config/prefs sorted out to work under OS4.1 would definitely be a good thing, well for me at least.
FXScan (68K/WarpOS)
Works but you get the DSI if you choose the use the Betascan drivers. Again Ignore the DSI and away you go.
I managed to make a photocopy to a HP LaserJet 1100
I've got FXScan 3 and 4, but I prefer Scanquix for most of my scanning as the GUI, and keystrokes, etc. are just so much easier to use, in fact the whole program is better, unless you want to do OCR scanning, which you can't do with Scanquix anyway, as you'll know.
ImageFX2
Sucessfully opened on a AGA screen I swapped it ro CV643D 1024x768 screen and then quit OK
I've got ImageFX 2, and 3 and 4.5, and the versions in between each full version so that's good news, though I usually use IFX v4.0 most of the time.
One thing I am a little annoyed about with Classic OS4.1 is that there does not appear to have been any work done to support more modern printers under the OS, which really is a poor situation. Will Turboprint (any version) work under OS4.1?
Thanks for the interim update, and can't wait for more info from you on the subject, thanks.
I was looking on EAB and saw one new user for Classic OS4.1 have trouble starting his system with the Fast ATA card installed, and had to go to the trouble of fitting a 4xIDE interface to get his PPC system to boot-up. Is that situation a regular problem? I have a Fast ATA Mk3 in my machine, and the release info states that it runs as a native Classic OS4.1 driver, so why isn't it working in that person's machine, which it seems to work for them under OS3.9?
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OK, so please explain the acronym 'DSI'
Data Storage Interrupt. In short, an illegal access to a given address (basically an 80000003 guru).
Sometimes these are harmless read accesses (still to be indicative of serious bugs that need fixing) that can be ignored by clicking "ignore DSI errors" when the Grim Reaper pops up.
Bad applications may also generate ISI, when you get the same sort of illegal access made by an instruction fetch. This is usually non recoverable.
The biggest problem I had with the Permedia2 driver at the beginning was fixing DSI bugs that were occurring inside the W3D_LockHardware() call (accesses to NULL and other arbitrary places), since the Grim Reaper can't pop up when the display is locked and my serial port isn't reliable enough to run a debugger over. Mostly a three finger salute then pouring over a dump of the last set of messages to the debug system.
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Data Storage Interrupt. In short, an illegal access to a given address (basically an 80000003 guru).
OK, I understand what DSI means, thanks Karl-OS :D
Sometimes these are harmless read accesses (still to be indicative of serious bugs that need fixing) that can be ignored by clicking "ignore DSI errors" when the Grim Reaper pops up.
Like the yellow bordered 'click left mouse to continue' warnings that often related to graphics library or other recoverable errors under 68k.
Bad applications may also generate ISI, when you get the same sort of illegal access made by an instruction fetch. This is usually non recoverable.
So what does the acronym 'ISI' stand for?
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One thing I am a little annoyed about with Classic OS4.1 is that there does not appear to have been any work done to support more modern printers under the OS, which really is a poor situation. Will Turboprint (any version) work under OS4.1?
Turbo Print 7 works here. You will have to copy over your 3.x installation and duplicate the turboprint: assign. The 1st floppy disk has a version of unlzx that crashes.
I was looking on EAB and saw one new user for Classic OS4.1 have trouble starting his system with the Fast ATA card installed, and had to go to the trouble of fitting a 4xIDE interface to get his PPC system to boot-up. Is that situation a regular problem?
It depends on the FAST ATA Cards in use. My understanding is The MK1 FAST ATA is supported directly by scsi.device.
SCSI.Device is still 68K and needs to be to allow the CD to be booted from 3.x
Myself I don't have a Elbox IDE addaptor.
I have a DCE 4 Way Buffered IDE splitter and an IDEFIX Express, both work fine.
To be fair I only uses the native IDE now to boot the kickstart files off a CF card and my sys: partition, dvd +/-rw and other drives are all sata.
There is a article coming soon on how to go just SATA and use the onboard IDE for booting the kickstart only.
I have a Fast ATA Mk3 in my machine, and the release info states that it runs as a native Classic OS4.1 driver, so why isn't it working in that person's machine, which it seems to work for them under OS3.9?
It indeed does have a new driver and prefs program provided by Elbox.
Could be that its not a MK3.
Darren is updating his hd-zone soon with some more info about IDE controllers.
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So what does the acronym 'ISI' stand for?
Take a guess:
Bad applications may also generate ISI, when you get the same sort of illegal access made by an instruction fetch. This is usually non recoverable.
;)
Oh, incidentally:
Like the yellow bordered 'click left mouse to continue' warnings that often related to graphics library or other recoverable errors under 68k.
No, not quite. AmigaOS recoverable alerts (the yellow ones) are usually caused by a sanity check failing, rather than an illegal access to memory. An example would be trying to free memory twice resulting in corruption in the free memory list which is detected by the OS allocation system. Illegal memory accesses are lower level than that. On OS3.x and below, you can usually read from almost any memory location that physically exists without generating a Guru. It's still a bug, it's just that you'd never have known it was there unless as a side effect of reading an unexpected value from that bogus location the application does something weird. Whether or not it is harmless depends on what the consequences of that read are. However, in OS4 such accesses in tend to cause DSI, unless the memory being accessed is explicitly public.
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It's still a bug, it's just that you'd never have known it was there unless as a side effect of reading an unexpected value from that bogus location the application does something weird. Whether or not it is harmless depends on what the consequences of that read are. However, in OS4 such accesses in tend to cause DSI, unless the memory being accessed is explicitly public.
In both case result is the same, though.
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In both case result is the same, though.
That's true only if you decide to allow the program to continue. On getting a DSI, you might decide instead to generate a crashlog, terminate the process and hound the author for a fix ;)
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Take a guess: ;)
OK, my guess, Instructed Statement Innuendo :)
or could it be Instruction Storage Interrupt?
Either way, it would be much easier for you to use words in conjunction with the acronym, for the terminology rather than just the abbreviation/acronym as there has got to be more than just me that's unfamiliar with OS4.x's operating terminology.
No, not quite. AmigaOS recoverable alerts (the yellow ones) are usually caused by a sanity check failing, rather than an illegal access to memory.
OK, I think I understand that one.
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Anyone wanna give me their PPC card so I can use this? ;)
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Turbo Print 7 works here. You will have to copy over your 3.x installation and duplicate the turboprint: assign. The 1st floppy disk has a version of unlzx that crashes.
OK, that's a nuisance, but if you've a backup of your Turboprint files on a CD then that would be simple enough, as long as you don't forget any prefs/ENV files for Turboprint, or are they not required? As I'm not sure how ENV works, if it still exists, under OS4.x.
I really believe that some NEW printer drivers, in the form of some thought & effort should have been put in to write up-to-date printer drivers for currently available printers for Classic OS4.1. New OS, new printer support - should go hand-in-hand really, don't you think?
Commodore, and even Amiga Inc. always kept basically up to date with printers, as some people actually use their Amigas to write letters, printout photos, etc, and not just play games. It's a bad way to start off a new OS anyway, don't you think?
It depends on the FAST ATA Cards in use. My understanding is The MK1 FAST ATA is supported directly by scsi.device.
SCSI.Device is still 68K and needs to be to allow the CD to be booted from 3.x
So, in my case I have a Mk3 FastATA device, so what device has Elbox made for it to work natively, and is it installed during the initial bootup with the OS4.1 start floppy?
Myself I don't have a Elbox IDE addaptor.
I have a DCE 4 Way Buffered IDE splitter and an IDEFIX Express, both work fine.
I know the board you mean, and I'm sure I've got one or 2 knocking about somewhere, but I either use the FastATA or a few 4xEIDE buffered interface cards made by Elbox, the small, slightly wedge shaped ones that were for the A600 and A1200, so do they work under OS4.x if you use the 68k scsi.device?
To be fair I only uses the native IDE now to boot the kickstart files off a CF card and my sys: partition, dvd +/-rw and other drives are all sata.
Yes that's OK once you've installed it I believe, but the basic installation states a minimum 20GB HDD is required for the install, so is that not correct, as at that time, pre-installation, there won't be any SATA drivers installed on the floppy disk, or will there?
There is a article coming soon on how to go just SATA and use the onboard IDE for booting the kickstart only.
Where will that article be, and how long before it's available?
It indeed does have a new driver and prefs program provided by Elbox. Could be that its not a MK3.
OK, his might not be but mine definitely is a Mk3. I wonder if you know of anyone on the betatesters list who does use a FastATA Mk3 under OS4.x as a native driver, and how easy that was to get working with Classic OS4.1?
Someone must have tested it for that to have been stated as a working piece of hardware, well I'd certainly like to think so, and most definitely need to confirm that before I make a decision on buying OS4.1.
Darren is updating his hd-zone soon with some more info about IDE controllers.
OK, will check over at Darren's site at some point, but really, all this information should have been put in place, BEFORE Classic OS4.1 was released.
I seem to asking quite a few fundamental questions that other people who would be considering migrating from a 68k Workbench to Classic OS4.1 who've got the right PPC hardware would want to know how much they can utilise, and what they've got to go dual boot on or use as a separate system.
I still feel this information should have been available before release, as it is just going to slow down sales until people feel happy that they aren't going to get ripped off again, as with Classic OS4.0 - the dire one !!
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I use the latest MKIII FastATA in my A1200T in the office. When installing OS 4.1, the FastATA was immediately recognised and utilised- there was no need to install any drivers. AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is supplied with FastATA MKIII Prefs in the Prefs drawer.
At home on my A1200T, I have an original FastATA MKI ("Powerflyer-Gold Edition"), I had to manually install the original 68k drivers for this as this product was last officially supported by Elbox in 2005.
If you use IDEFIX, you need to select to enable support during the Installer as explained in the printed Installation manual that is supplied with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.
As for printer drivers, I recently bought a new HP printer and used the standard AmigaOS HP Printer Driver and it worked immediately: because HPs have a common printer language. Just avoid printers that are software driven such as Lexmark inkjets etc. Also OS 4.1 contains a native port of Ghostscript which can be used to print to any printers that are PostScript compatible.
Expecting printer driver support for new printers that arrive onto the market every few months is unrealistic due to the developer resources that would be required.
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That's true only if you decide to allow the program to continue. On getting a DSI, you might decide instead to generate a crashlog, terminate the process and hound the author for a fix ;)
Only if terminating the process was safe operation ;-)
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@Nearly-Right
Maybe you'll find this list(s) useful:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29215&start=40&post_id=618049&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=618047&forum=32#618047
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Only if terminating the process was safe operation ;-)
At least it catches it and gives you a good deal of information about what caused it, providing really good feedback for developers. Better than just doing nothing.
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At least it catches it and gives you a good deal of information about what caused it, providing really good feedback for developers. Better than just doing nothing.
Except when a crash is hard enough and that grimreaper will fail or crash itself as a consequence (and it happens quite frequently, from what i've seen of various unstable apps). So having a robust log service (on serial port/whatever) with proper information is much more reliable.
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So having a robust log service (on serial port/whatever) with proper information is much more reliable.
The information is also written to the debug buffer and by extension the serial port if serial port debugging is enabled regardless of whether or not the Grim Reaper is able to launch.
Without it, debugging the Permedia2 driver would have been extremely difficult, since most of the DSIs that rendered it unusable were happening within a hardware lock and nothing could update the screen let alone open a window on it.
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>OS3.9 lists 6MB of Fast RAM in its requirements... Still a lot less, but 16 times less, not 50...
I know, but 6Mb isn't necessary, it will indeed boot on a 2Mb system.
Maybe but what you can do today with only 2 MB ...
From time to time I continue to use OS 3.9 under emulation and hey to use it decently i need 16/32 MB at least ...
As other say OS4 is far advanced compared to the old OS 3.9 so there is a reason to require 64 or 96 MB (just for the new memory system and tons of the new features, graphics and so on)
Also how mutch cost memory today ?
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Except when a crash is hard enough and that grimreaper will fail or crash itself as a consequence (and it happens quite frequently, from what i've seen of various unstable apps). So having a robust log service (on serial port/whatever) with proper information is much more reliable.
I can usually write serial logs at 56700bps no problem...out the serial port to another machine, but 115200bps sometimes gets some errors from the 4000. But most of the characters come across OK. If I want a 100% error free debug log I use 56700, otherwise 115200 with the occasional garbled text is ok.
In beta testing and development it is normal to run with a Debuglevel=5 so you can always see what is going on.
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I use the latest MKIII FastATA in my A1200T in the office. When installing OS 4.1, the FastATA was immediately recognised and utilised- there was no need to install any drivers. AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is supplied with FastATA MKIII Prefs in the Prefs drawer.
OK, that's great news, as it was more of a nuisance trying to get it working under Classic OS4.0, even though I didn't get much use out of that OS release. :(
At home on my A1200T, I have an original FastATA MKI ("Powerflyer-Gold Edition"), I had to manually install the original 68k drivers for this as this product was last officially supported by Elbox in 2005.
But good to know it still offers the additional IDE ports even under OS4.1. :)
As for printer drivers, I recently bought a new HP printer and used the standard AmigaOS HP Printer Driver and it worked immediately: because HPs have a common printer language.
I believe the common printer language in HP printers is PCL (Printer Command Language) as well as PS (PostScript) though they have moved through various versions of PCL over the years, but I believe the backwards level of compatibility is still very good.
However, HP have changed some of their printers of recent years to be host based printers, which means you have to have the software designed for the operating system you want to use the printer with, i.e. an Operating System driver intended for that platform such as Windows or Macintosh, in the main, or you'll get nothing out of the printer, which means that PCL, and even PostScript is not supported in those products, such as the HP 3550 Color Laserjet - no PCL or PostScript printing capability.
There are other HP, and other manufacturers, printers that we should all be aware of with those limitations and not buy a printer that won't work under Amiga OS as there's no driver for it, which is the reason I mention that there are no new printer drivers with OS4.1 which is an area that needs urgent attention, IMHO.
Just avoid printers that are software driven such as Lexmark inkjets etc.
OK, thanks for that info
Also OS 4.1 contains a native port of Ghostscript which can be used to print to any printers that are PostScript compatible.
That's handy, but I don't suppose many people own a PostScript capable printer, even though I do. We shouldn't forget that TurboPrint 7 offers "PS" printing which will enable Ghostscript to print the data via that Postscript function even to non PostScript printers, and I believe Turboprint 7 works under OS4.1 so that's good.
Expecting printer driver support for new printers that arrive onto the market every few months is unrealistic due to the developer resources that would be required.
I think you've tried to escape the real point as there is NO NEW PRINTER support in OS4.1 as far as I am aware, so it's not like there has been some work done in OS4.1 to provide up-to-date printer functionality as there is NOTHING NEW in that area of the OS, but please correct me if I'm wrong there, as I'd really like to know there is something new.
What's more, rather than say it's unrealistic - all the development time for OS4.x to get so far, 2003 to 2011 - 8 years approximately, has gained us NOTHING NEW in the printer area, which is the truth of the matter. Not even Turboprint 7 has been updated in a good few years.
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What's more, rather than say it's unrealistic - all the development time for OS4.x to get so far, 2003 to 2011 - 8 years approximately, has gained us NOTHING NEW in the printer area, which is the truth of the matter. Not even Turboprint 7 has been updated in a good few years.
You could always have a go at porting CUPS ;)
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You could always have a go at porting CUPS ;)
That's like pointing the finger of blame at me for not updating the OS4.x printing system, when I'd have hoped the OS4.x development team would have been considering/implementing some update to the printing system, seeing as it forms an integral part of any OS.
That's also nice of you to ask me, someone not involved in the development of OS4.x, to have a crack at it :D
But hey, that's just the way I look at it, seeing as I am a prospective customer. I'll just learn C and C++, etc. and write my own OS, then pay myself to buy it, with a little extra added on top as profit, nice!! :D
I'd just like to see a fully formed Classic OS4.x, with some up-to-date printer support that should have been added, even if it was only for 2 or 3 new printers, but having said that it's hard to find a new Centronics based printer these days. :(
However, with USB support built into Classic OS4.1, merely owning a USB adapter card would be the only requirement for new printer support to be realised.
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That's like pointing the finger of blame at me for not updating the OS4.x printing system, when I'd have hoped the OS4.x development team would have been considering/implementing some update to the printing system, seeing as it forms an integral part of any OS.
The whole reason tools like TurboPrint existed in the first place is that historically the built-in AmigaOS printer support was a bit bobbins. Was OS printing support ever a dealbreaker for you previously?
I'll just learn C and C++, etc.
You say that like it would be a bad thing...
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The whole reason tools like TurboPrint existed in the first place is that historically the built-in AmigaOS printer support was a bit bobbins.
I agree, the original printing system in the Amiga OS was not very good, as it was more of a games console, and back then colour printing was not really possible other than ribbon colour dot-matrix printers and that was sometime after the first Amigas were released, and mainly then, in any case, games were king.
Was OS printing support ever a dealbreaker for you previously?
There were always new printers supported for OS1.3, then when OS2.x came along more printers were supported, the same for OS3.x, but now no new printer drivers in OS4.x.
So where does this part of the chain of printer support in OS development breakdown? The answer I unfortunately already know is OS4.x.
So to answer your question, it was never a question of printer support being a deal breaker before, because it was always supported before, but this is the first OS with no new printer support.
I don't think I am being unreasonable to ask for some new support, I think the wait, and changes in availability of printers requires it, as printers don't last forever, and supplies for some old Centronics printers are no longer available, as you must already be aware of.
It's no good pointing the finger at me, it's the OS that's lacking in this department, and it really could do with sorting out, pronto.
You say that like it would be a bad thing...
I'd like to be able to program, it's just the learning curve, and I can't just write a printer driver without that programming knowledge, but that also requires specific knowledge of how printer drivers work, and how the hardware works that I would need to support it, no easy task for a beginner.
Fancy having a go yourself?
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I'd just like to see a fully formed Classic OS4.x, with some up-to-date printer support that should have been added, even if it was only for 2 or 3 new printers, but having said that it's hard to find a new Centronics based printer these days. :(
However, with USB support built into Classic OS4.1, merely owning a USB adapter card would be the only requirement for new printer support to be realised.
that's something i think most OS4 users would like to see. the development team changes over time, and, frankly, the printing subsystem is really old. that said there have been improvements to it, and you'd be surprised what is possible.
for example i purchased an officejet j6480 last year and it works brilliantly. in fact, coupled with lpr.device and the photosmart driver, i've been using it just as i would from my linux, solaris, and windows machines.
hyperion and the development team are aware of the shortcomings in the printing system and are looking to leverage CUPS as the basis for a new printing system in the immediate future. based on conversations at amiwest, the priorities are: supporting new and classic systems, a new 3D stack based on openGL and gallium 3D, a new printing system based on CUPS, finally finishing long-outstanding components (such as the updated console.device and USB stack), and substantial changes to execSG to support SMP.
i'd love to have better printer support now, but it's coming. :)
-- eliyahu
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that's something i think most OS4 users would like to see. the development team changes over time, and, frankly, the printing subsystem is really old. that said there have been improvements to it, and you'd be surprised what is possible.
At last, an agreement that the printer system is past-its-sell-by-date.
for example i purchased an officejet j6480 last year and it works brilliantly. in fact, coupled with lpr.device and the photosmart driver, i've been using it just as i would from my linux, solaris, and windows machines.
Is the OfficeJet J6480 a PCL based printer?
hyperion and the development team are aware of the shortcomings in the printing system and are looking to leverage CUPS as the basis for a new printing system in the immediate future.
That's encouraging, but how long is this piece of string, if you know?
based on conversations at amiwest, the priorities are: supporting new and classic systems, a new 3D stack based on openGL and gallium 3D, a new printing system based on CUPS, finally finishing long-outstanding components (such as the updated console.device and USB stack), and substantial changes to execSG to support SMP.
OK, so why has no-one mentiioned these printing system parts of the OS as having been discussed, as areas for updating, to interested potential Classic OS4.x users, and other newer hardware ACube owners before, as this is the first time I've heard it mentioned by anyone connected with the development of the Amiga OS.
Good communications might keep people more interested if they knew you were still discussing developing more sections of the OS that have over the years of development fallen behind.
i'd love to have better printer support now, but it's coming. :) -- eliyahu
But when? Do we have to wait a year or more for that printer support?
I do appreciate you updating this thread with that information, as I've been trying to find out such information for some time now, so I'm glad you have mentioned it.
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I'd like to be able to program, it's just the learning curve, and I can't just write a printer driver without that programming knowledge, but that also requires specific knowledge of how printer drivers work, and how the hardware works that I would need to support it, no easy task for a beginner.
Fancy having a go yourself?
As it happens, I aready am working on some stuff I want to see improved support for which is likely to keep me occupied for a while.
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At last, an agreement that the printer system is past-its-sell-by-date.
Is the OfficeJet J6480 a PCL based printer?
yup. it supports both PCL and postscript. so it's not a good example per se since we've had those drivers for eons -- but i wanted to demonstrate it is still possible to support recent printers nonetheless.
That's encouraging, but how long is this piece of string, if you know?
i wish i knew! :lol:
at amiwest the discussion of developing the new printing system around CUPS was part of ben's talks. i don't recall there being much detail about schedule, implementation specifics, etc. there is a post of his talk over on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWVEpylWM7Q) and on robert's video site (http://blip.tv/bios/ben-hermans-and-the-friedens-at-amiwest-show-2010-4344954). in truth i'd like to see more than just hyperion working on getting the imaging situation on OS4 improved. a modern printing infrastructure coupled with (finally) finishing a native pagestream5 and an OS4-native version of arteffect would be wonderful and a selling point not just for classic users.
OK, so why has no-one mentiioned these printing system parts of the OS as having been discussed, as areas for updating, to interested potential Classic OS4.x users, and other newer hardware ACube owners before, as this is the first time I've heard it mentioned by anyone connected with the development of the Amiga OS.
Good communications might keep people more interested if they knew you were still discussing developing more sections of the OS that have over the years of development fallen behind.
hmmm. well everyone at AWN knew about this from various show reports; but it's true that, beyond ben's talk at amiwest, there hasn't been much on this via official channels. that said i really do think communication has improved substantially over the past nine months. a full-court press at amiwest, the developers' blog, more public participation in the forums (particularly AWN and amigans.net).... it's not ideal, but it is getting better and i think the hyperion folks really do 'get it' that a good communications channel is essential to keeping folks interested.
i adore using OS4 on my SAM, and i really think it is a very enjoyable hobby. there are certainly some shortcomings, such as the printing subsystem, and it does no harm to discuss them openly. that's how things get changed. i think the hesitation in others to talk about known issues stems from folks using them as an excuse to start bashing OS4, hyperion, ben hermans, pick your favorite.
in any case i look forward to update3 and beyond. :hammer:
-- eliyahu
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Wow! Its nice to know that OS4 users are faced with a similar dilemma.
MorphOS doesn't have that many modern printer drivers either (although it does have better support then OS4).
Which leave users of both our OS' scrambling to find Postscript compatible laser printers.
Not a bad solution, but somewhat limited.
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From what I've seen over the last few months and even prior there are a good amount of printers that work straight out of the box with OS4.x... I think some people just want there choice of printer to work and this is understandable from a certain point of view but just not realistic enough...
More printer support will come in time... The thing I find funny personally for myself is I have owned an OS4.x machine since day one and now I own 4 of them and never printed from any of them one single time...
;-)
When I start programming I'm not sure printer drivers are going to be high on my list either...
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yup. it supports both PCL and postscript. so it's not a good example per se since we've had those drivers for eons -- but i wanted to demonstrate it is still possible to support recent printers nonetheless.
I don't see that it's a PostScript printer, just PCL, PJL, and PML as far as I can make out, but it's worth knowing that it works OK with the printer drivers we already have.
Which printer driver do you use with OS4.0 for the HP J6480 OfficeJet?
Can I take it that the scanner won't work under OS4.0 with any scanning software we currently have within the OS or that works with OS4.x?
at amiwest the discussion of developing the new printing system around CUPS was part of ben's talks. i don't recall there being much detail about schedule, implementation specifics, etc. there is a post of his talk over on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWVEpylWM7Q) and on robert's video site (http://blip.tv/bios/ben-hermans-and-the-friedens-at-amiwest-show-2010-4344954).
Are you saying it was more of a throw about of ideas, 'hot air' rather than a time-schedule to get the printing system up-to-date? If so, then the printing system may well be languishing for some time waiting for some meaningful work to be done on it.
in truth i'd like to see more than just hyperion working on getting the imaging situation on OS4 improved. a modern printing infrastructure coupled with (finally) finishing a native pagestream5 and an OS4-native version of arteffect would be wonderful and a selling point not just for classic users.
Ahh, PageStream 5, OOh, Yeah, but Deron Kazmaier seems to be struggling with the MUI implementation, along with other bugs/problems, that he is not too familiar with. I believe he has someone who is prepared to work on the MUI side of PageStream that knows MUI better than Deron himself, but I believe that the server infrastructure is not in place as yet for the work to be started as yet.
hmmm. well everyone at AWN knew about this from various show reports; but it's true that, beyond ben's talk at amiwest, there hasn't been much on this via official channels.
Well until Karlos mentioned CUPS, and you mentioning it as well, that was the first I'd heard of work on the printing side of the OS, but then making the trip to AmiWest to hear the discussion would have been too far for me to consider as viable, as I'm in the UK. :(
that said i really do think communication has improved substantially over the past nine months. a full-court press at amiwest, the developers' blog, more public participation in the forums (particularly AWN and amigans.net).... it's not ideal, but it is getting better and i think the hyperion folks really do 'get it' that a good communications channel is essential to keeping folks interested.
Well if Hyperion 'get it' they haven't gone out of their way to 'show it', as there's still very little support from them for Classic OS4.1, no online FAQ for Classic OS4.1, as I believe was offered on their blog pages,and no discount for those, like me, who got 'burnt' with the Classic OS4.0 release.
It would be a nice, and fair gesture to acknowledge their poor quality release of Classic OS4.0 and offer some discount to those users who are prepared/want to upgrade to Classic OS4.1. I for one got very, very little use out of Classic OS4.0, and I'm sure, from what other people have said, who bought Classic OS4.0, I'm not alone in that thought.
i adore using OS4 on my SAM, and i really think it is a very enjoyable hobby. there are certainly some shortcomings, such as the printing subsystem, and it does no harm to discuss them openly. that's how things get changed. i think the hesitation in others to talk about known issues stems from folks using them as an excuse to start bashing OS4, hyperion, ben hermans, pick your favorite.
I take no pleasure in 'having a go' at anyone from Hyperion or any of the betatesters, all of whom must have spent many hours/days,etc., working to improve Classic OS4.1, but some of it doesn't feel like a full product, yet they still want to charge a full product price. I feel that those involved on OS4.x, for whichever piece of Amiga OS intended, hardware ought to know what it feels for those of us outside the 'closed circle'
in any case i look forward to update3 and beyond.
Yes, but I, and I'm sure many others, want to be assured in paying £100 for the Classic OS 4.1 that there will be updates to it, and need to know that it's worth what's being asked for it. Because, at the moment I feel cheated out of the value of what I paid for Classic OS4.0, as I feel none of us received a genuinely usable product with the last Classic OS4.0 release.
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From what I've seen over the last few months and even prior there are a good amount of printers that work straight out of the box with OS4.x... I think some people just want there choice of printer to work and this is understandable from a certain point of view but just not realistic enough...
So are you saying it's not realistic to expect printers you can still buy in the shops to be supported by the new OS when you buy Windows or Mac OS?
I don't think I would believe that, and it shouldn't be the case with OS4.1. What's more, after about 8 years of development Hyperion should have got some printer manufacturers interested enough or prepared to offer up some details as to how to enable their more recent printers to work with Amiga OS4.x.
More printer support will come in time... The thing I find funny personally for myself is I have owned an OS4.x machine since day one and now I own 4 of them and never printed from any of them one single time...;-)
So, what do you do with your OS4.x machines? Obviously not DTP, and maybe not even GFX, but web/internet use usually needs something to be printed out every so often, well I find I do.
When I start programming I'm not sure printer drivers are going to be high on my list either...
Well, I'd hope this doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.
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I don't see that it's a PostScript printer, just PCL, PJL, and PML as far as I can make out, but it's worth knowing that it works OK with the printer drivers we already have.
Which printer driver do you use with OS4.0 for the HP J6480 OfficeJet?
i'm currently using the photosmart driver available on o4depot (http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=driver/printer/hp_photosmart.lha) coupled with lpr.device (http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/print/lpr_dev.lha) for networking printing purposes. it's a bit of a pain to have to hand-edit the IP address, but once it's done, it works like a charm. :)
Can I take it that the scanner won't work under OS4.0 with any scanning software we currently have within the OS or that works with OS4.x?
good question. i've never tried since i tend to use the web interface for scanning anyway. it might work with SCANdal, but i doubt it.
Are you saying it was more of a throw about of ideas, 'hot air' rather than a time-schedule to get the printing system up-to-date? If so, then the printing system may well be languishing for some time waiting for some meaningful work to be done on it.
no, they were actually announcing their development plans for the near-term. it's just that i don't recall them discussing dates for delivery. ben made clear that it was something that hadn't been worked on in some time, and that he and the team wanted to see progress on the printing front to bring it up to modern standards if for no other reason than to support recent printing hardware.
Ahh, PageStream 5, OOh, Yeah, but Deron Kazmaier seems to be struggling with the MUI implementation, along with other bugs/problems, that he is not too familiar with. I believe he has someone who is prepared to work on the MUI side of PageStream that knows MUI better than Deron himself, but I believe that the server infrastructure is not in place as yet for the work to be started as yet.
i remember him asking around for someone to help with (or take over) development due to his difficulties with MUI. i don't know if that was OS4-specific, though, as the request was also made on morphzone.org (http://morphzone.org). in any case substantial MUI fixes and updates are coming with 'update 3' according to various developers.
Well until Karlos mentioned CUPS, and you mentioning it as well, that was the first I'd heard of work on the printing side of the OS, but then making the trip to AmiWest to hear the discussion would have been too far for me to consider as viable, as I'm in the UK. :(
hey, it's hard on me and i live here. :lol:
Well if Hyperion 'get it' they haven't gone out of their way to 'show it', as there's still very little support from them for Classic OS4.1, no online FAQ for Classic OS4.1, as I believe was offered on their blog pages,and no discount for those, like me, who got 'burnt' with the Classic OS4.0 release.
i'm not sure they have ever offered discounts to previous customers. who knows, maybe they'll give you one if you ask nicely? :cool:
there is good and plentiful documentation included in the retail package, but nothing that i can see online. support is something i'd like to see improved, but given the small size of the community, the help available on the fora, and the fact that neither the morphOS team nor the AROS developers offer formal support either, i doubt we'll see anything on that front for a while. if the X1000 attracts a bunch of folks, though, they may need to. it's something we can continue to suggest, and, as paying customers, they take our views seriously.
It would be a nice, and fair gesture to acknowledge their poor quality release of Classic OS4.0 and offer some discount to those users who are prepared/want to upgrade to Classic OS4.1. I for one got very, very little use out of Classic OS4.0, and I'm sure, from what other people have said, who bought Classic OS4.0, I'm not alone in that thought.
i'm sorry to hear that. it sounds like folks relying on native, i.e., AGA graphics did not have as enjoyable experience as though with discrete external video cards. but from what i have garnered from friends who used both OS4 and v4.1 with the subsequent updates, that it is a much, much improved product. i can't comment directly since i only joined the amiga community last year with the purchase of a SAM. this year's amiwest is to focus on 'normal' usage of classic and NG amiga kit, so maybe the videos that come from the conference will give you a better idea of whether the new version is worth your time (and money).
i can only say that OS 4.1u2 is fantastic on my SAM.
I take no pleasure in 'having a go' at anyone from Hyperion or any of the betatesters, all of whom must have spent many hours/days,etc., working to improve Classic OS4.1, but some of it doesn't feel like a full product, yet they still want to charge a full product price. I feel that those involved on OS4.x, for whichever piece of Amiga OS intended, hardware ought to know what it feels for those of us outside the 'closed circle'
Yes, but I, and I'm sure many others, want to be assured in paying £100 for the Classic OS 4.1 that there will be updates to it, and need to know that it's worth what's being asked for it. Because, at the moment I feel cheated out of the value of what I paid for Classic OS4.0, as I feel none of us received a genuinely usable product with the last Classic OS4.0 release.
i know. i wasn't including you in the comment about folks 'having a go' at hyperion, et al. it seems to me your experience with OS 4.0 was so bad that you would have wanted a refund. i don't feel it is a 'closed circle' any more, though. much of what is being planned is being discussed publicly these days. i think the real issue here is that, unlike windows or OS X or linux, you can't just pop into your local big box retail outlet and try it out for yourself. this was very frustrating for me since purchasing a SAM and OS4 was not an inexpensive proposition, and relying on fora and youtube videos only helps so much. :lol:
perhaps there is someone that frequents these boards within driving distance that wouldn't mind you trying OS 4.1 on their system? if you lived in connecticut, you'd be welcome to swing by me -- but then again, i don't have classic hardware.
i hope someone from hyperion is reading all of this, but if not, try reaching out to them and see if they are willing to help with a discount or offer a refund guarantee or something. the worst they can say is 'no,' so it's worth a shot.
let us know what you end up deciding. :)
-- eliyahu
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Karlos
Didnt hyperion say something about a CUPS port recently?
(pah didnt read the whole thread b4 posting) lol
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no, they were actually announcing their development plans for the near-term.
OK, I'll bear that in mind
there is good and plentiful documentation included in the retail package, but nothing that i can see online. support is something i'd like to see improved, but given the small size of the community, the help available on the fora, and the fact that neither the morphOS team nor the AROS developers offer formal support either, i doubt we'll see anything on that front for a while.
Glad you agree on that point, but Darren Eveland 'HammerD' has gone to a lot of trouble to make such information readily available, but I still feel that it should be on either Hyperion's or AmigaKit's website as they are the publishers, and authorised dealers - respectively, and Darren shouldn't be having to do it for them, though hopefully they have come to some financial arrangement with him for all his useful effort
from what i have garnered from friends who used both OS4 and v4.1 with the subsequent updates, that it is a much, much improved product.
I really hope it is, but I'm still seeing posts on some of the Amiga forums the difficulties that some users are having with Classic OS4.1 in its latest creation, so the software still needs some noticeable improvement and work to get it up the standard I'd be prepared to consider buying it, so there's some way to go yet, IMHO.
I had some good news from Elbox, who say that they are currently working on implementing for OS4.1, what was a DMA 'hack' under OS3.9, for the PCI library 10.x which would see, the currently usable under OS3.9, DMA requiring PCI cards for the Mediator become usable under Classic OS4.1+, which would be really good news.
That should mean that the Soundblaster 128 & LIVE and other PCI Soundcards, faster network cards - the RTL8139, the Spider USB, and other PCI cards would become usable again with a Mediator - but this is work that is currently under way, and not completed or confirmed as yet.
I also believe there is a new batch/model of A1200 FastATA boards being produced for one of our favourite suppliers, so if this occurs I will feel more strongly about migrating to Classic OS4.1 than I have done before, but it is still an egg not a chicken that we have here, so I'll be watching for it all to materialise, but it certainly sounds like good news.
Elbox also still have plans, they say, for a PCI PPC card for the Mediator, but I don't have any more specific details on those plans, as yet.
I did ask them if they minded if I posted this information on this site, but they didn't reply yesterday, one way or the other, so I've gone ahead and let the wider Amiga community know of what I've been told so far, which I hope is of interest to other people who seem to be interested in this thread.
i can only say that OS 4.1u2 is fantastic on my SAM.
Well, I'm pleased you are happy with it on newer hardware, but I still feel the price for the hardware is expensive, notwithstanding the hardware is being produced in relatively small batches.
perhaps there is someone that frequents these boards within driving distance that wouldn't mind you trying OS 4.1 on their system? if you lived in connecticut, you'd be welcome to swing by me -- but then again, i don't have classic hardware.
I'm not aware of anyone in my area in the UK with such Classic PPC hardware, and Classic OS4.1, unfortunately.
i hope someone from hyperion is reading all of this, but if not, try reaching out to them and see if they are willing to help with a discount or offer a refund guarantee or something. the worst they can say is 'no,' so it's worth a shot.
I've tried contacting Hyperion before, and it's like trying to get a response from the Marie Celeste.
let us know what you end up deciding. :)
There's a long way to go, read that as a possible long wait, before I make a decision on buying Classic OS4.1, as it has yet to become stable, and really usable with the DMA cards, as I feel many Mediator owners with PPC boards are holding their breath for such developments.
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@Nearly-Right
Maybe you'll find this list(s) useful:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29215&start=40&post_id=618049&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=618047&forum=32#618047
I appreciate you taking the time to make that very long list, but how come IBrowse didn't make it into your list of compatible programs?
Other than that, a very useful long useful list to save time and effort wondering if a program, that works nicely under 68k Workbench/OS, will or will not work under OS4.x.
Many thanks.
Would you be happy to copy the list from the Amigaworld site to this one, to save keep looking backwards and forwards from that site to this for the list of compatible programs? I can do it if that's OK with you, I just wanted to ask if you have any objections to me doing so, as it seems only polite to ask you first. :D
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Ibrowse OEM is supplied with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic as a contribution
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Ibut how come IBrowse didn't make it into your list of compatible programs?
'Cos I didn't "migrate" IBrowse - it was already part of the OS4.1 contribution. ;-) As I already posted at AW.org, there's a lot more classic stuff that works (more or less) out of the box with OS4.1...
I can do it if that's OK with you, I just wanted to ask if you have any objections to me doing so, as it seems only polite to ask you first. :D
Of course you can copy/quote/link this list - wherever you like... :-)
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'Cos I didn't "migrate" IBrowse - it was already part of the OS4.1 contribution. ;-) As I already posted at AW.org, there's a lot more classic stuff that works (more or less) out of the box with OS4.1...
OK I understand now, but I couldn't have known as I haven't got OS4.1, and as I hadn't read all of your post on AW.org only the list itself.
Of course you can copy/quote/link this list - wherever you like... :-)
OK, thanks, so here's your list with just a few small grammar changes to make it more readable. ;)
Category ..... Name ..... Version ..... Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Office - AmigaWriter .. 2.20 - Sometimes unstable, different behaviour with G4/440ep - remember the StormScreenManager!
Office - EqEd .. 0.96
Office - FinalCalc .. 1.04 - Only non-FPU version, FPU version doesn't render diagrams correctly, IFF save doesn't work (but PS does).
Office - FinalData .. 1.0D
Office - FinalWriter .. 3.0 With 030-Patch.
Office - Mathscript .. 3.2
Office - Microgolded .. 8sp10
Office - PageStream .. 4.1.5.6
Office - Prodata .. 1.13
Office - Protext .. 6.10
Office - StarAm Plan .. 2.31
Office - TurboCalc .. 5.02D
Office - Wordworth .. 7.01
Image - ADPro .. 2.5.1
Image - ArtEffect .. 4.0.7
Image - ArtPro .. 1.20b
Image - CandyFactory .. 0.54b Unstable and very slow (PPC version doesn't work, only 68k).
Image - Colortype .. 3.1 The Kara Collection; works and is usable, but displays a corrupted button bar.
Image - Cybershow .. 9.5a
Image - FRED .. 1.4.1
Image - fxPaint .. 2.02
Image - ImageFX_Lite .. (3)
Image - ImageStudio .. 2.3.0
Image - Konrad .. 1.0.17
Image - MonumentDesigner .. 3.044 No JIT, before start change FONT: assign!
Image - Morph .. 1.3.1
Image - PerfectPaint .. 2.93-6
Image - PerfectPaint .. 2.94 Unstable, older version much better!
Image - PersonalFontsMaker .. 1.2
Image - PersonalPaint .. 7.1
Image - Photoalbum .. 6.6
Image - Photogenics .. 5.0r121
Image - PicView .. 2.7a
Image - SuperView5 .. 2.70
Image - TVPaint .. 3.6 = 3.59
Image - XiPaint4 .. 0.736
Image - ZoneXplorer .. 1.2
Render - Castillian .. 2.0
Render - Cinema4DPro .. 4.2
Render - ConFont .. 1.2
Render - GeoMorph .. 1.0
Render - Imagine .. 4.0
Render - Lyap2DEM .. 2.1
Render - MagicLink .. 3.2
Render - MakePath .. 1.1
Render - Monzoom .. 4.3.65 Sometimes (ignorable) Grim at startup.
Render - Real3D .. 3.5
Render - TextureStudio .. 1.0.2 Not perfect - rendering only to disk (not in window)
Render - Viewer3 .. 0
Render - VistaPro .. 3.05 Crashes on exit, needs "native" screen (SuperHighRes Interlace)
Draw - AmiFIG .. 3.1
Draw - Cliptool .. 1.1
Draw - Convert .. 1.0.1
Draw - Cycas .. 1.78.7
Draw - DrawStudio .. 1.1.0 Usable, but save your work often
Draw - EPSLab .. 37.179
Draw - hp2xx .. 1.04
Draw - MetaView .. 2.9 Usable, but not that stable - Classes drawer must be mapped to LIBS:
Draw - TypeSmith .. 2.5b
System - CanonBJC .. 6.52
System - CanonBJCPrefs .. 6.51
System - CanonStudio .. 2.21
System - ClassAction .. 4.50 Class "ASCII[]" and d&d FROM WB leads to GRIM.
System - Diavolo .. 3.4Pro
System - Envoy .. 3.1
System - FormAldiHyd .. 2.3
System - GHelp .. 4.1
System - goPortscan! .. 1.1
System - JPEGLibraryPrefs .. 1.2 = jpeg.library; No JIT.
System - KingCON .. 1.8
System - MakeCD .. 3.2Dbeta12
System - MultiRen .. 1.69
System - NetInfo .. 1.36
System - NetprinterPrefs .. 1.14 = netprinter.device
System - NetworkSnoop_68k .. 0.1
System - ReportPlus .. 6.49
System - ReqToolsPrefs .. 38.281
System - Skimmer .. 1.37
System - StromScreenManager .. 2.3
System - SweepSys .. 2.01
System - T1Manager .. 3.1 = type1.library
System - Term .. 4.8
System - triton.library .. 6.115
System - TritonPrefs .. 6.2
System - Wacom .. 1.50 Grims on exit.
System - xfdmaster.library .. 39.15 No JIT.
System - XPKMasterPrefs .. 1.31
Multimedia - Amplifier .. 2.33
Multimedia - MainActorBoadcast .. 1.04
Multimedia - MainViewerBroadcast .. 1.04
Multimedia - OctaMED Soundstudio .. 1.03c
Multimedia - Samplemanager .. 2.0
Multimedia - Songplayer .. 1.62
Multimedia - SSAPref .. 1.4 No JIT.
Multimedia - The Maestrix .. 1.2
Development - AmiBlitz3 .. 3.3
Development - AmiBlitz3 .. 3.5beta
Development - Amiga E .. 3.3a
Development - AWNPipe .. 2.54
Development - CubicIDE .. 3.0
Development - GoldED .. 8sp10
Development - MurksIDE .. 0.6.1 (alpha)
Development - ReActor .. 1.1
Development - Rebol/CORE .. 2.5.0.1.2
Development - Rebol/VIEW .. 1.2.1.1.1
Development - StormWIZARD .. 2.3
Science - CDB .. 1.06
Science - Graph3D .. 1.43
Science - MapleV .. R3
Science - mathX .. 1.32 Sometimes with Grim, but in the meantime there is now a native version
Science - NomeEstOmen .. 0.815
Science - PetiteChimiste .. 2.10
Misc - AmiAtlas .. 5.9
Misc - AmiAtlas6 .. 6.53
Misc - STFax .. 4.1
Games - AmiJeweled (DEMO) .. 1.3D
Games - Foundation (RTG) .. 1.12
Games - Nemac4 .. 1.100 Works, every now and then instability (sound!)
Please be aware of the fact that this list is only my "migration" list. There's a lot more OS3.x 68k software, that will work with OS4.1, but I haven't checked those packages, as they were "fresh" installs (i.e. IBatch, SMBMounter, etc.).
Thanks cha05e90
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BTW, Hyperion just opened official support forums:
Article about it here:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/06/hyperion-opens-official-support-forums/
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BTW, Hyperion just opened official support forums:
Article about it here:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/06/hyperion-opens-official-support-forums/
splendid. an official channel for support from hyperion is an excellent and welcome addition to the corporate site. please thank whomever opened those fora to the general user public.
-- eliyahu
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BTW, Hyperion just opened official support forums:
Now that's about time, but I'm surely appreciative also ;)
I've got a feeling some pestering to Hyperion has been going on, maybe by you Darren? :D If so, I'm doubly grateful
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Now that's about time, but I'm surely appreciative also ;)
I've got a feeling some pestering to Hyperion has been going on, maybe by you Darren? :D If so, I'm doubly grateful
Actually the Forums were not my idea - credit Hyperion, Hans-Joerg Frieden, and Steven Solie for that. It's part of the wider strategy to improve communications with the user base.
I did do some poking and prodding to get them up relatively quickly, though :)
Since you are a owner of AmigaOS 4.0 Classic you should register.
Darren
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So are you saying it's not realistic to expect printers you can still buy in the shops to be supported by the new OS when you buy Windows or Mac OS?
I don't think I would believe that, and it shouldn't be the case with OS4.1. What's more, after about 8 years of development Hyperion should have got some printer manufacturers interested enough or prepared to offer up some details as to how to enable their more recent printers to work with Amiga OS4.x.
So, what do you do with your OS4.x machines? Obviously not DTP, and maybe not even GFX, but web/internet use usually needs something to be printed out every so often, well I find I do.
Well, I'd hope this doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.
OS4.x is currently a small sized "hobby" platform, so there would be no profits for these devs.
Just look at linux.. It has a much larger userbase and yet printers can be problematic there as well.
When you use a alternative OS you have to expect such issues and instead buy printers that are supported.
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I would suggest that if it works reliably with all the waitstates disabled, then try that. Otherwise I'd suggest testing it set to 60ns mode and in either case, compare it against some other 60ns rated memory.
There's really no rush for this, I was just curious.
two take advantage of 50ns simms go to ram menu and disable everything,but with high speed bus and *256Mb* ram (ie 67.666 low end Blizzard PPC) you may not be able to use this.
1. the Blizzard chipset(s) can overheat and damage the card. **WARNING**
2. there are poor 50ns simms and some simms are still not fast enough. there are 60ns simms that are faster than some 50ns simms.
i did a ragemem test and all the figures show its faster than a Cyberstorm 233Mhz PPC,but with 128Mb Ram speed reads over 100Mb sec. (OS4.1) PCI bus speed can read 7 & 21Mb top end.
to get around the problem iv checked each and every dram chip,as dram chips do not all overclock the same even with the same part number,so my simms are fined tuned and hand built which allows me to overclock to 83Mhz with 256Mb ram.
Blizzard PPC card need faster Dram chips than my 43ns simms,anyway will upload screenshot soon.
Bvision Update: had a few problems here,Bvision now overclock to 116Mhz with no problems but has shown it may overclock to 125Mhz,i can use workbench with Sgram @122Mhz. (modifiyed Bvision driver OS3.9)
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Actually the Forums were not my idea - credit Hyperion, Hans-Joerg Frieden, and Steven Solie for that. It's part of the wider strategy to improve communications with the user base.
Well, you could knock me over with a feather duster, well almost :D but maybe Steven Solie gave the final push forward, as this problem has existed for sometime, and it's happened very soon, it seems, after Steven came into the 'program'
Don't get me wrong I'm grateful, I really am.
I did do some poking and prodding to get them up relatively quickly, though :)
ha, ha ... I knew it!
Since you are a owner of AmigaOS 4.0 Classic you should register.
Already am, and I've put a few questions forward, already, on the Hyperion forum, some of which you already know about.
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OS4.x is currently a small sized "hobby" platform, so there would be no profits for these devs.
We are not talking about profit, we are talking about up-to-date availability of printers - name me 1, yes just one, currently retailed modern inkjet or laser printer that we have a specific printer driver for?
Just look at linux.. It has a much larger userbase and yet printers can be problematic there as well.
I don't want to know about Linux's problems, I want our problems resolved. Let's not waste time looking at someone else's OS to point to our own OS's shortcomings.
When you use a alternative OS you have to expect such issues and instead buy printers that are supported.
Yes that's my point ... we have no up-to-date supported printers other than the ones that were supported back in 2002 under OS3.9 - 9 years ago - and they don't make those printers anymore, unfortunately.
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Benchmark screenshot
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3526&page=1#comment15085
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We are not talking about profit, we are talking about up-to-date availability of printers - name me 1, yes just one, currently retailed modern inkjet or laser printer that we have a specific printer driver for?
Any printer that supports PostScript will do you just fine. Once you have Postscript support, the issue is more down to the applications not fully supporting it (e.g. Wordworth) than the OS. Off the top of my head, pretty much any Brother laser printer will work - hell, we use them in work for machines that still run MS-DOS 5... Most of them even have a parallel connection as well as USB.
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Benchmark screenshot
So, what hardware have you got in your Amiga with the Blizzard card?
Is it a tower system or just the PPC card and BVision tucked inside the A1200 case?
Who did the overclocking, and would it be easy enough for most owners to do?
Were there any problems you encountered installing Classic OS4.1 on your system?
Otherwise, most impressive! :D
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Nearly-Right, it was reported by Harald the new Elbox beta drivers are working in his setup. He said some colour problems on the Radeon (he didn't specify), but this may mean now that you can use all the Elbox drivers, including the RTL8139 and SB128. Of course they will be 68K drivers and not PPC native, but they may work.
This is what he said on http://www.a1k.org: (translated)
Sun Hi together,
I have the BETA drivers from here Elbox installed and followed the installation instructions exactly.
Radeon card works now!
Who needs the driver and the guide, which can feel free to contact me!I am sending this to then!As I said this is still BETA!
We have to test it.There are still some false color in messages but we'll get it yet!
Greeting
Harald
The link to the thread is here:
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?p=437289#post437289
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Still got a little problem with Poseidon if anyone has any advice.
Dump file is again attached and happens when 4.1 boots. USB mouse however still works happily in the background. The only reason I'm posting is because the crash appears to be preventing me from getting into Trident...I get an error message stating 'Could not create custom classes'
Any help appreciated as, other than this, I'm really excited about the new OS. Bought a compatible network card from AmigaKit (thanks!) and she's browsing the web, running CygnusEd 5 and playing Wipeout 2097 in all it's glory :)
Thanks in advance
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Nearly-Right, it was reported by Harald the new Elbox beta drivers are working in his setup. He said some colour problems on the Radeon (he didn't specify), but this may mean now that you can use all the Elbox drivers, including the RTL8139 and SB128. Of course they will be 68K drivers and not PPC native, but they may work.
I got a PM from Harald, with more detail.
I am also awaiting a reply from him, as I asked him a lot more questions, as he has an A1200 with a Mediator, though not the same model as me (mine's a TX, his is an LX) so hopefully I would learn about levels of compatibility with the hardware he's running under Classic OS4.1 than from anywhere else I have found, so far.
He also let me know that the SOLO soundcard he has, showed up as recognised under the hardware running under Classic OS4.1, BUT he didn't get any sound via AHI out of it, so that is not so good.
I am still waiting for someone, anyone, saying they have a SOLO-1 soundcard with the ESS1938S in an A1200 running through AHI under Classic OS4.1, which I have not seen written anywhere confirming it's compatability with Classic OS4.1, especially in an A1200. I believe anyone running such a soundcard has it running in an A4000, and that may only be the ESS1969 chipset anyway, but I'd really like someone to speak up and confirm they have such a soundcard working in an A1200 with a Mediator.
I have NOT bought Classic OS4.1 as yet, as I am still not convinced it is a mature enough OS for any serious use, especially for an A1200.
What's more I got a reply from AmigaKit stating that there will be NO DISCOUNT or UPGRADE from Classic OS4.0 to Classic OS4.1, so for me to consider buying Classic OS4.1 the PCI card compatability has got to be improved dramatically with more PCI cards supported, before I commit to spending the best part of £100 on it.
Hans-Jorg Frieden stated on the Hyperion pages that there is less compatability available as the A1200 does not have a jumper to affect, simple waitstates, which are available on the A4000, which allows greater compatability with Classic OS4.1, that's if I understood his comments correctly. :(
So, I do not think the playing field is very even for the A1200 compared to the A4000, as most developers seem to be using that for betatesting Classic OS4.1, due to its greater compatability, and it seems much less time has been, or is being, spent on getting the A1200 version of Classic OS4.1 to the same level of compatability IMHO.
Hans-Jorg Frieden (HJF) also said that the PCI library of Elbox's is also asking for a board failure due to the fact that Classic OS4.1 has it's own software/driver method to control the PCI Mediator I/O and that using a 68k version as well as the OS4.1 device will no doubt cause some problems that will either cause early failure of the PCI board or eventual failure of the board, again if I understood his comments correctly.
HJF also said that the Elbox PCI library method was not supported. He has said this before, and basically the PCI library from Elbox would not work with Classic OS4.1, so I'd be interested to know if it does allow the DMA soundcards, and NICs, etc. to actually work under Classic OS4.1.
However, I'm not buying Classic OS4.1 to be the guinea pig to try it out, but I'd be interested to hear from someone who has the OS and has tried it with the DMA cards that are not supported under Classic OS4.1 but are under OS3.9, such as the RTL8139 NIC, and Soundblaster 128 PCI cards, and for that matter any of the cards supported by Elbox, including the Spider USB card.
However, Elbox have not stated the facts for their PCI library update as of yet, but I'd be interested to hear their take on it, so come on Elbox, let's hear your side of the PCI library's development. ;)
I should also add that the - New AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Users - thread has only 4 pages of comments, wheras this thread has 12 pages already.
Frankly, it does not seem to say a lot for the take-up/purchase of Classic OS4.1, and AmigaKit have not got back to me on the number of people who have bought Classic OS4.1, which I asked them about a few days ago, which is disappointing in many ways. :(
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Maybe some people posting in here are classic 4.1 users..I know I am running it on a 4000 :)
In reply to one of your comments my RTL8139 NIC does not work as it does in 3.9 so I bought a few of the 8029s from AmigaKit and the Internet Wizard had me on the network in just a few seconds. I do have a SB Pro but, due to lack of space in my 4000D, I don't have the room in her to install it.
Only issue I've seen with 4.1 is the error message I'm still seeing noted a couple of posts before this.
Other than that in an A4000 w/233MHz CSPPC and 128MB I am very happy with the OS. Appears to be miles ahead of 4.0 (I installed that once and took it off) - 4.1 is a keeper so far and is very usable. My hardware 'just worked' out the box and I was running a 1920x1080 desktop on a 32" LCD via DVI straight off the bat. Only installation problem I had was taken care of by HammerD and was basically me installing a Subway driver by accident during the Poseidon install for the Deneb.
Overall, I'm very happy with it. Personally, I wasn't expecting a discounted upgrade from 4.0 as the Amiga commercial software development landscape in my opinion is very different than that of the PC world. This stuff is sold in comparatively minuscule quantities and the developers that write this need supporting. I look at the cost as part upgrade cost and part the cost of making this sort of development still viable which I'm quite happy in paying.
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@Nearly-Right
The cards you mention (realtek 8139 and SB128) are not supported although there is a hack to make the Soundblaster work as a passthrough card.
I have OS4.1 Classic running on my A1200 which has Mediator 1200sx (6 slot)
Its working with my Blizzy PPC + 256mb Ram (Upgraded by Stachu to 330mhz)
I have used it with Radeon 9250 (128mb) and it works great with the 3D Hardware effects :)
I tested 2 Redeon 9200 256mb and they didn't work though.
I have a Realtek 8029 PCI NIC and I go online without any issues, I also have a SB128 but I didn't try the hack yet.
I tested 2x supported SATA PCI cards and had issues with both, drives are seen and I can partition them but when I save changes the system locks up. I'm going to raise this on the support forums and see if we can get that looked at.
Overall the OS is very responsive and runs well on my A1200 but the issue is the apps/games written for it run slow, Mame, GLQuake, PRDoom all run slow as they are coded for 800mhz Sam's etc...
I think with some apps coded to work with the slower Classic machines it could be a really great OS.
Steve.
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Overall, I'm very happy with it. Personally, I wasn't expecting a discounted upgrade from 4.0 as the Amiga commercial software development landscape in my opinion is very different than that of the PC world. This stuff is sold in comparatively minuscule quantities and the developers that write this need supporting. I look at the cost as part upgrade cost and part the cost of making this sort of development still viable which I'm quite happy in paying.
I understand your perspective, and I generally agree with the principle of supporting the people who have bothered to upgrade Classic OS4.x to something that actually works as Classic OS4.0 was supposed to, BUT, so far the OS has not imbued me with confidence to buy it. I wouldn't mind paying the £100 if the support for PCI cards was more comprehensive, and actually worked.
I am waiting for more PCI hardware support, as the comparatively few PCI cards supported don't make it worth transferring from OS3.9, where I can use all my cards compared to OS4.1 where I can use 2 - GFX & LAN - which in my opinion is very poor support for £100 of Classic Amiga OS. :(
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The cards you mention (realtek 8139 and SB128) are not supported although there is a hack to make the Soundblaster work as a passthrough card.
I am aware of that, but it's not real support for a PCI soundcard is it, unless you are the first user with a SOLO-1 soundcard that has actually got it working in an A1200, so have you?
If so, which ESS chipset is on your SOLO-1 soundcard?
I have OS4.1 Classic running on my A1200 which has Mediator 1200sx (6 slot)
OK, so that's similar to my hardware, but mine's a TX - which accepts all the Radeon supported cards, as far as I am aware that is.
Its working with my Blizzy PPC + 256mb Ram (Upgraded by Stachu to 330mhz)
How much did that cost to get it upgraded to that speed?
I have used it with Radeon 9250 (128mb) and it works great with the 3D Hardware effects :)
I tested 2 Redeon 9200 256mb and they didn't work though.
Ah, but do the Radeon 9200 cards with 256MB work in the SX under OS3.9?
I have a Realtek 8029 PCI NIC and I go online without any issues, I also have a SB128 but I didn't try the hack yet.
OK, so the 8029 NIC works OK, that's good news, but just out of interest, which A1200 motherboard are you using, and do you have the CC-Reset adapter fitted?
I tested 2x supported SATA PCI cards and had issues with both, drives are seen and I can partition them but when I save changes the system locks up. I'm going to raise this on the support forums and see if we can get that looked at.
So the SATA cards don't work properly as yet, well not in the A1200s it seems.
Which chipsets are on the SATA cards?
I haven't heard anything about the SATA cards in the A4000 PPC systems, but maybe someone can add that on after this comment, if they have one, and can say which chipset they are using.
Overall the OS is very responsive and runs well on my A1200 but the issue is the apps/games written for it run slow, Mame, GLQuake, PRDoom all run slow as they are coded for 800mhz Sam's etc...
Have you tried any 68k applications using Classic OS4.1?
I think with some apps coded to work with the slower Classic machines it could be a really great OS.
I'm hoping that too, but I'm hanging on for more software and hardware compatability before I commit fully to buying Classic OS4.1, as I'm not prepared to get 'stung' twice :(
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Even now, over a month after release, Classic OS4.1 having been released about the 17th May 2011, as far as I am aware, and since then, I haven't seen any Classic OS4.1 user say that their A1200 is working with a SOLO-1 soundcard, or SATA card, and some people are still having problems with Radeon cards even though they work under OS3.9 in their Mediator setups.
So far Classic OS4.1 does not seem to be doing much better than Classic OS4.0, unless someone can prove differently. I'd really be interested for someone else to be able to wave the flag of success, but I haven't really seen anything obviously better, as there is very little additional hardware that's supposed to be compatable, but that hardware, in any case, doesn't seem to work in a usable way.
I think some A4000 users are having better times, but the humble A1200 user is not getting much compatability with their PPC hardware. Anyone know differently?
I'd like to know how many people have actually bought Classic OS4.1?
It doesn't seem to be many, as I think a lot were put off by the pitiful Classic OS4.0 release, as I was.
I have not bought Classic OS4.1, as I'm still not convinced Classic OS4.1 is a genuinely useable OS on an A1200 with a Mediator.
There is definitely better hardware information than was ever released about Classic OS4.0, and there has been a lot more help from some of the Betatesters, such as Darren Eveland, but even then, the hardware information is flawed as some of the hardware supposed to be supported just isn't working reliably with Classic OS4.1.
I've been waiting for a few days for someone to come back with a response to my last post to say that the supported hardware for Classic OS4.1 is working in their A1200, but that has not materialised, so I am really beginning to wonder if this release is, in reality any better than Classic OS4.0? :(
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This lack of further updated information from any Amiga users buying/installing Classic OS4.1 is extremely disheartening.
I'm not buying it as I bought Classic OS4.0, and regretted it, due to the many hardware OS driver support problems, and that's the only time that has happened with any Amiga OS I have paid for.
In fact, it only seems to re-inforce my worst suspicions that Classic OS4.1 is best avoided until there is sufficient headway made for reliability and hardware support that actually works for all the Classic hardware, and more specifically when it relates to the supported PCI hardware, that disappointingly still does not seem to work for all Mediator boards.
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Hi!
Sorry I missed your reply, I don't visit these forums too often.
I am aware of that, but it's not real support for a PCI soundcard is it, unless you are the first user with a SOLO-1 soundcard that has actually got it working in an A1200, so have you?
If so, which ESS chipset is on your SOLO-1 soundcard?
The card I bought was a Terratec 128i with ESS Solo-1 Chipset but it never arrived and I had to get a refund via PayPal so yet to test a supported Soundcard with OS4.1 Classic
OK, so that's similar to my hardware, but mine's a TX - which accepts all the Radeon supported cards, as far as I am aware that is.
I bought another Mediator, an LT4 and it has the same issues as my SX, I'm going to report them via the official OS4.1 support Forums.
How much did that cost to get it upgraded to that speed?
I bought the Blizzy already upgraded for £600 :)
Ah, but do the Radeon 9200 cards with 256MB work in the SX under OS3.9?
Nope, although detected by PCI Info they cause a crash if you try to open a screen. I don't think these cards I bought were supported versions.
I also tested the radeon 9200 256mb in my friends TX and it didn't work.
OK, so the 8029 NIC works OK, that's good news, but just out of interest, which A1200 motherboard are you using, and do you have the CC-Reset adapter fitted?
I have a FastATA so it has its own reset header. My Motherboard is 1D4
So the SATA cards don't work properly as yet, well not in the A1200s it seems.
At least not for me :(
Which chipsets are on the SATA cards?
sii3512 2 port and sii3114 4 Port
I haven't heard anything about the SATA cards in the A4000 PPC systems, but maybe someone can add that on after this comment, if they have one, and can say which chipset they are using.
Darren Everland is using a 3512 SATA card in his A4000 and he says Carl Moppett has it working in an A1200, hopefully I can get some help via the official support forum
Have you tried any 68k applications using Classic OS4.1?
No
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Hi!
Sorry I missed your reply, I don't visit these forums too often.
No problem, appreciate you taking the time to update your progress, or lack of it with regard to Classic OS4.1
The card I bought was a Terratec 128i with ESS Solo-1 Chipset but it never arrived and I had to get a refund via PayPal so yet to test a supported Soundcard with OS4.1 Classic
Darren offered me the opportunity of a SOLO soundcard as he says a dealer near to his place has a few in stock, but I'm not sure of the exact chipset, as the chipset on the SOLO soundcards I have are ESS1938S, not the ESS1969 which the betatesters seem to have been using, and the ESS1969 chipset seem to be like hensteeth to acquire. If you're still after a SOLO soundcard, then you might ask Darren if he can get you one from his local computer hardware shop.
I cannot think of any dealer with these old soundcards for sale. I've spotted the occasional one on ebay, but the supply of SOLO - Terratec 128i soundcards that Vesalia were selling a good while ago, seems to have dried up.
I bought another Mediator, an LT4 and it has the same issues as my SX, I'm going to report them via the official OS4.1 support Forums.
So, that's the problem regarding the Radeon cards is it?
I bought the Blizzy already upgraded for £600 :)
Do you know what components have been modified to the Blizzard?
Nope, although detected by PCI Info they cause a crash if you try to open a screen. I don't think these cards I bought were supported versions.
I also tested the radeon 9200 256mb in my friends TX and it didn't work.
That's not good compatability of hardware on Elbox's part, selling such cards that won't even work under OS3.9. if I understand you correctly
I have a FastATA so it has its own reset header. My Motherboard is 1D4
OK, so you've the built-in CC-reset, like I have with my Fast-ATA. The 1D4 A1200 motherboard has the reputation of having the most problems with timing if I'm not mistaken, but I suppose you know that already, and maybe you've had that fixed already?
At least not for me :(
Not good news. I just hope you can get Carl Moppett to give you some clue as to how to get it working in an A1200.
I have a Sil3114 SATA card, just in case I buy Classic OS4.1, but it's looking more, and more likely that I won't, at least not for the moment, as the hardware situation hasn't been sorted out as yet. That is very important to me, and I'm not spending £100 to get frustrated with all the incompatabilities, lockups, etc., like I did with Classic OS4.0. I'll just wait, and see if it gets sorted out. I just feel sorry for people like you who've stumped up the cash, and are just getting bogged down with problems, which the OS should never have been released with. If it had been properly bug, and hardware tested I suppose it wouldn't have these problems, but I don't feel enough trouble has been taken to ensure what hardware was supposed to be supported, actually had been tested in as various a set of machines as possible to ensure really good compatability, but your troubles are bearing that scenario out, as I suspected, but I did actually hope I'd be proven wrong.
sii3512 2 port and sii3114 4 Port
OK, as I mentioned I have the Sil3114, so I'll wait to see how you get on with that hardware to get it working under Classic OS4.1.
Darren Everland is using a 3512 SATA card in his A4000 and he says Carl Moppett has it working in an A1200, hopefully I can get some help via the official support forum
I've got to say, I would like to know who has tested which hardware, and in particular the SOLO and SATA cards, and with which chipsets, and in which machines, to find out which betatesters can offer further advice on a specific hardware setup to find someone with as similar a machine as mine, and I'm sure you'd feel the same too.
No
I'm surprised you've not tried any other 68k software, or have you not had the Classic OS4.1 system running very much/stably/at all as yet?
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Still got a little problem with Poseidon if anyone has any advice.
Dump file is again attached and happens when 4.1 boots. USB mouse however still works happily in the background. The only reason I'm posting is because the crash appears to be preventing me from getting into Trident...I get an error message stating 'Could not create custom classes'
Any help appreciated as, other than this, I'm really excited about the new OS. Bought a compatible network card from AmigaKit (thanks!) and she's browsing the web, running CygnusEd 5 and playing Wipeout 2097 in all it's glory :)
Thanks in advance
Theres some faq's that you should read if you havent, one is the FAQ here:
http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=92
and this is a big help. has some deneb info : http://www.hd-zone.com/amigaos-4-1-classic/
I was having some deneb problems myself that turned out to be the jumpers on the medaitor were causing it. be sure they are set as to the first faq recommends.look for the optomizations for poseidon on the second link i gave above.
also do you have the latest poseidon 4.4 and is the bootloader in the deneb updated?
Mech
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This lack of further updated information from any Amiga users buying/installing Classic OS4.1 is extremely disheartening.
I'm not buying it as I bought Classic OS4.0, and regretted it, due to the many hardware OS driver support problems, and that's the only time that has happened with any Amiga OS I have paid for.
In fact, it only seems to re-inforce my worst suspicions that Classic OS4.1 is best avoided until there is sufficient headway made for reliability and hardware support that actually works for all the Classic hardware, and more specifically when it relates to the supported PCI hardware, that disappointingly still does not seem to work for all Mediator boards.
i can't even imagine what you do when you need a new car or a new flat! i wouldn't be your dealer :-/
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i can't even imagine what you do when you need a new car or a new flat! i wouldn't be your dealer :-/
Well I'm not in the market for a new car or a new flat, just a Classic Amiga OS4.1 that's supposed to just do 'what it says on the tin'.
But by all the reports I've seen about Classic OS4.1 buying an equivalent new car would be be like accepting as OK a new car with a missing windscreen.
If you can't see the flaws in the OS then I feel sorry for you.
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I have got the sata raid card working under os4.1 on the A4000 mediator with no trouble so far.
its a silicon image sil3114 chip (actual # is sil3114ctu) and i got it off ebay for $17usd here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290574197080&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
i am using it with a sata to cf adapter and 4 gig transcend 133x card so far for testing. so far so good, card went in and was recognized right off and showed up in hd.From initial quick and dirty tests,seems this thing uses alot of cpu time copying to/from its drive but this might be my imagination. seems the system gets sluggish- it could be i havent configged something right. It is NOT bootable supposedly but i wonder if there was a way to get the pci lib and drivers into the deneb flash it might be?
the sapphire radeon 9250 128MB i use was also new from ebay for about $22..and supports 5v and 3.3v with no mods.
i have a ess solo sound card coming from ebay,its a 1938 chipset if i recall,i will report on it as soon as it arrives.
mech
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I have got the sata raid card working under os4.1 on the A4000 mediator with no trouble so far. its a silicon image sil3114 chip (actual # is sil3114ctu) and i got it off ebay for $17usd here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290574197080&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
I got one, which is a 4 port card, from the link below, but mine cost a little less, and came boxed with 2 serial leads, and a driver CD for Windows.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180679640079
i am using it with a sata to cf adapter and 4 gig transcend 133x card so far for testing. so far so good, card went in and was recognized right off and showed up in hd.From initial quick and dirty tests,seems this thing uses alot of cpu time copying to/from its drive but this might be my imagination. seems the system gets sluggish- it could be i havent configged something right. It is NOT bootable supposedly but i wonder if there was a way to get the pci lib and drivers into the deneb flash it might be?
I see your SATA card is a 4 port card. I'm glad to hear someone is using that chipset of SATA card successfully, even though it's maybe slightly limited, but basically that's great news, my only reservation is that you are using it in an A4000, which is better supported/more compatible with Classic OS4.1 than the A1200 version as there seems to be no way to implement wait states, which maybe one of the problems with compatability, but I'd like to hear from Carl Moppett as he is supposed to have a SATA card working in his A1200 Classic OS4.1 setup.
the sapphire radeon 9250 128MB i use was also new from ebay for about $22..and supports 5v and 3.3v with no mods.
I am not sure if it's only A1200 users who are having problems with the latest Radeon cards from Elbox, or if there is some compatability with Radeon cards in the A1200 geneerally, but I'm looking for some reliability from the betatesters, and more reports from users with Classic OS4.1 that they are running a Radeon card in their Classic OS4.1 setups without any issues. That's what I'd like to hear.
i have a ess solo sound card coming from ebay,its a 1938 chipset if i recall,i will report on it as soon as it arrives.
OK, thanks, I'll look forward to that update, but it will be tempered with the fact that you're using an A4000, not an A1200 which is what my system would be running on.
I have the same SOLO soundcards with the same ESS1938S chipsets, but my setup would be an A1200 with 240MHz PPC card, and a Mediator TX with a Radeon 9200 256MB. That's if I ever get Classic OS4.1, which will happen once enough current users give a better overall picture of hardware that's supposed to be compatible, actually doing just that.
Proper fully functioning compatibility is the key feature I am waiting to hear about.
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Hi Nearly-Right, I have some Ethernet speed tests done if you are interested:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/07/ethernet-adapter-speeds-amigaos-3-9-and-amigaos-4-1-classic/
Shows you the difference between the RTL 8029, RTL 8139...
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Hi Nearly-Right, I have some Ethernet speed tests done if you are interested:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/07/ethernet-adapter-speeds-amigaos-3-9-and-amigaos-4-1-classic/
Shows you the difference between the RTL 8029, RTL 8139...
Off Topic:
Interesting results with TLSFMem, I never expected it generated such a boost on network performance.
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Hi Nearly-Right, I have some Ethernet speed tests done if you are interested:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/07/ethernet-adapter-speeds-amigaos-3-9-and-amigaos-4-1-classic/
Shows you the difference between the RTL 8029, RTL 8139...
Great test, i wonder if using a xsurf on zorro gets simular w/o the cpu overhead? i have the patched os4 x-surf driver if u need it?
Mech
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Great test, i wonder if using a xsurf on zorro gets simular w/o the cpu overhead? i have the patched os4 x-surf driver if u need it?
Mech
I don't have an X-Surf... :(
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Off Topic:
Interesting results with TLSFMem, I never expected it generated such a boost on network performance.
Yep, i wouldn't have thought so either, but the results proved me wrong :)
Overall a noticable speedup. Using the MAPROM option also gave a boost of about 150KB/sec (but that is already included in the tests).
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Hi Nearly-Right, I have some Ethernet speed tests done if you are interested:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/07/ethernet-adapter-speeds-amigaos-3-9-and-amigaos-4-1-classic/
Shows you the difference between the RTL 8029, RTL 8139...
OK, checked those out, and as others have commented, interesting results, and seems to bear out what you've said about the not so noticeable speed increase of a should-be-faster RTL8139 NIC over the RTL8029 NIC.
Is there a confirmation on anyone actually being able to use a SOLO soundcard in an A1200 under Classic OS4.1?
Another user has successfully used a Sil3114 4 port SATA card, but in an A4000, but I have an A1200, and need to know that such a card will work in an A1200 running Classic OS4.1, so can you confirm it is usable in an A1200?
Anything sorted out with the problematic Radeon cards under Classic OS4.1, the latest ones from Elbox?
Any news on a working driver for the Blizzard SCSI as yet?
Has anyone reported back, who has been sent the version 10.x of the pci.library for the Mediator, as to whether it allows any more of the original PCI hardware supported under OS3.9 to actually function under Classic OS4.1?
I believe HJF has given this method of accessing the PCI system on a Mediator the 'thumbs-down', but is there any way to implement/incorporate such a driver directly into the Classic OS4.x without clashing with the PPC OS PCI driver/sub-system?
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I'm just wondering about the SATA PCI RAID CARD (4-PORT) that AmigaKit are now selling for use in a Mediator PCI Busboard with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic as to whether it has been tested in an A1200 Mediator TX/LT/SX or other variant, running the Classic PPC OS4.1 system?
Has anyone bought this card from AmigaKit to know which chipset the card actually has on it?
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OK, checked those out, and as others have commented, interesting results, and seems to bear out what you've said about the not so noticeable speed increase of a should-be-faster RTL8139 NIC over the RTL8029 NIC.
Yes, I guess that is the point I was trying to get across. While you could see some speed up on a RTL8139 vs a RTL8029, it's not a massive difference. The Classic systems just don't have the horse power to drive the cards that much faster. So to me it's not a big deal at all.
Is there a confirmation on anyone actually being able to use a SOLO soundcard in an A1200 under Classic OS4.1?
Carl Moppett and several other beta testers had SOLO-1 cards working on A1200 systems. I can tell you though, the SOLO-1 is a very "heavy" card on the PCI bus. While you don't see it in the CPU usage any worse than Paula, it "feels" like it slows the system down because it's PCI Bus utilization seems to be very high. And yes, we worked with the developer to optimize the driver as much as we could, but it didn't improve it much. My recommendation is to use Paula sound, or if you want, route Paula through a Soundblaster 128 card which some users have successfully done and they say it sounds better.
But Paula can sound quite good too - if you put a good set of speakers and an AMP connected to Paula, it can sound fantastic and is the lowest CPU-usage solution. I wouldn't get hung up on the SOLO-1 either. Yes, you can play full quality 16-bit stereo sound out of it, but there is a CPU usage penalty. The guide for using a Soundblaster 128 routed through Paula is here:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/06/using-a-soundblaster-128-in-amigaos-4-x-classic/
Another user has successfully used a Sil3114 4 port SATA card, but in an A4000, but I have an A1200, and need to know that such a card will work in an A1200 running Classic OS4.1, so can you confirm it is usable in an A1200?
I can't as I don't have that hardware. Your best bet is to go through AmigaKit which has a test system setup and has been stocking PCI cards for AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. The bottom line is with the 100's of variants of PCI cards out there you can never be 100% sure until the card is actually tested in your machine.
AmigaKit does list a SATA 4 port card that works with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. Follow up with them for A1200 support: http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1042
Anything sorted out with the problematic Radeon cards under Classic OS4.1, the latest ones from Elbox?
It's on the radar for testing this, but it may be that those cards will never work. The x86 bios emulator that inits the Radeon cards does not work with all cards. Again there are 100's of possible variants and BIOS revisions out there. Elbox changed the cards they are shipping to end users. During development of AmigaOS 4.1 Classic we tested at least three different Radeon cards purchased directly from Elbox, and they worked. But now it seems they ship a different card from a different vendor and it doesn't work. Again you'll have to find a card that works and AmigaKit is again stocking them. The Sapphire card has been tested and is known to work. They pop up on eBay frequently. One is here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-RADEON-9250-PCI-64MB-64-BIT-DVI-VGA-TV-/170651814174?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item27bba4091e#ht_857wt_1139
Any news on a working driver for the Blizzard SCSI as yet?
Not as of yet. The developer that has volunteered to work on it is still busy as far as I know.
Has anyone reported back, who has been sent the version 10.x of the pci.library for the Mediator, as to whether it allows any more of the original PCI hardware supported under OS3.9 to actually function under Classic OS4.1?
Not that I have seen, other than some users have the Radeon working with Elbox's driver. However you lose 3D support and compositing and access to all of the Radeon's memory. It's still a 68k driver and not properly written to use AmigaOS 4.1's PCI sub-system - it uses it's own, so it's not compatible with the above mentioned features.
I believe HJF has given this method of accessing the PCI system on a Mediator the 'thumbs-down', but is there any way to implement/incorporate such a driver directly into the Classic OS4.x without clashing with the PPC OS PCI driver/sub-system?
Not without re-doing kernel support and the entire PCI sub-system and memory arrangement which I don't think is going to happen. Based on the fact the RTL 8139 is really not that much faster, the Solo-1 not that optimal of a card, and there is a way to use the Soundblaster 128 for a single sound card solution, I doubt Hyperion is willing to rip up the current kernel to implement any dma-hack solution (The Mediator is NOT a DMA device in itself).
I just want to say that I appreciate your questions and critiques of AmigaOS 4.1 Classic, but you primarily compare it against AmigaOS 4.0 which I don't think is fair, and also AmigaOS 3.x which has had 20 years of a healthy and active developer community to tweak and optimize it. (Sadly we don't have a healthy developer community anymore - we are lucky to have the active developers that still work on our 20+ year old Amigas as it stands).
AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is an entirely new product, with a new kernel, new drivers, new memory system, and has improved and expanded 3D support, only to mention a few things. In my opinion Hyperion, the developers, and the beta testers have done a superb job on it.
One has to also consider the size of the available market for this product - it's probably far less than 1000 users. We have to balance the potential sales with the development costs and feature set. For my personal view that less than 1000 units will sell, I think it's a very good product for what you get, and it's been stated by Hyperion it will be supported with Update 3 enhancements.
Maybe it's best you see it in action personally from someone in the UK who has it. And by all means if you are not happy with it don't buy it.
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Carl Moppett and several other beta testers had SOLO-1 cards working on A1200 systems. I can tell you though, the SOLO-1 is a very "heavy" card on the PCI bus.
While you don't see it in the CPU usage any worse than Paula, it "feels" like it slows the system down because it's PCI Bus utilization seems to be very high.
Why has that factor not been made crystal clear before now?
Who would want a system that just doesn't respond well, merely due to installing a PCI soundcard!
Never mind the problems of getting it working, when you do, it seems anyone who does will regret it !!!!
What sort of improvement to an OS is that, the benefit of a soundcard, but a multi-tasking operating system that won't operate as it should.
And yes, we worked with the developer to optimize the driver as much as we could, but it didn't improve it much.
If I remember correctly, the SOLO soundcard was released when 486 PC systems were still available, Microsoft Windows 95 & NT, so it would have been a card that worked in a slower PC system, and even now it can't be made to work invisibly/unnoticeably &/or better and faster in a more multi-tasking operating environment with a faster PPC CPU. Something seems not quite right there.
My recommendation is to use Paula sound, or if you want, route Paula through a Soundblaster 128 card which some users have successfully done and they say it sounds better.
That's it, let's have our PCI Mediator boards useful for just Vision, Internet, SATA but not sound, now we're cookin' !!
But Paula can sound quite good too
I had Paula when I had no choice and before the Mediator came along, but now I should revert back to it, because there's basically no soundcard support, DUH!!
That's the sort of backwards step I'm not really sure is of benefit to anyone prepared to pay £100 for a partially non-operating system.
- if you put a good set of speakers and an AMP connected to Paula, it can sound fantastic and is the lowest CPU-usage solution.
Wow, that's great, but what about the recording facilities that a soundcard offers that the basic Paula chip doesn't offer?
It's like making excuses because the underlying kernel doesn't work to accomodate the Classic hardware to allow a hybrid form of DMA that most PCI cards seem to need.
The Mediator was around long before any Classic OS4.x was released. So it's not like its method of operating was not known about as Elbox are on the betatesters list with Hyperion, so that 'hack' could have been incorporated/modified to make it system legal, and blend into the OS, or a workaround implemented and supported, if that's possible, so that Elbox could offer more PCI support to Hyperion for use with Classic OS4.x.
I wouldn't get hung up on the SOLO-1 either. Yes, you can play full quality 16-bit stereo sound out of it, but there is a CPU usage penalty.
Yes, why bother with a soundcard, but let's shout out out that the SOLO card is supported and will work in the OS, but not tell the intended customer that you'll find it slows your already low-horsepowered system down so much that you'll regret buying it, both the soundcard and the Classic OS4.1.
The guide for using a Soundblaster 128 routed through Paula is here:
http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/06/using-a-soundblaster-128-in-amigaos-4-x-classic/
Seen that, but I have a Soundblaster Live card working in my Mediator TX under OS3.9 that allows 16 bit sound, and doesn't slow my system down in a noticeable way, and it's only using the slower 68k chip. What's more, while that's working I've Blizzard SCSI, and an Adaptec SCSI card, Spider USB card, and Radeon 9200 256MB, and Voodoo 3 3000 16MB card - YES, 2 graphics cards, so I can choose which I want to use, and also get the benefit from the Radeon's on-board RAM being added to my system RAM so I've got almost 1/2 GB of FastRAM, for when I do large detailed scans, and the system multi-tasks great.
That's the power of PCI in a Classic Amiga system, not this barely supported piece of software called Classic OS4.1, that doesn't support even the basics of PCI hardware - SOUND.
But hey, guess what, if you spend £100 you can upgrade to what appears to be the very first backward stepped Amiga OS, brilliant .... NOT
I appreciate you being helpful with all the support you've given to the latest Classic OS4.1, and I really mean that. I also am grateful for you being honest about the hardware, and its limitations, but frankly this is not a good feature of the somewhat limited or as I like to call it a non-Operating system.
AmigaKit does list a SATA 4 port card that works with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. Follow up with them for A1200 support: http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1042
I've already asked them, in this thread, and via their own website support forum, and email/contacts, but I haven't had a reply from them as yet.
It's on the radar for testing this, but it may be that those cards will never work. The Sapphire card has been tested and is known to work. They pop up on eBay frequently. One is here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-RADEON-9250-PCI-64MB-64-BIT-DVI-VGA-TV-/170651814174?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item27bba4091e#ht_857wt_1139
I've already got one, or maybe even 2 or 4 of those Sapphire 9250 cards, but I'm hoping my Radeon 9200 256MB card will work, as it is one of the older versions of those cards, so from what you've said I'm optimistic - but I haven't committed to Classic OS4.1 as yet, as I'm still not convinced it's worth it.
To explain my current dilemma about buying, or at this stage, not buying Classic OS4.1, I recently bought an ASUS A7V8X motherboard for £4, with an AMD Athlon AXDA2800DKV4D CPU, and I already have Amiga OS XL/Amithlon so I can either run that and get a much faster Amiga system using that, or I can install AROS and get a fast system on that same board, and have to pay nothing more, though I'd probably donate an amount, as that seems only fair, so there's no incentive to change to Classic OS4.1 with those options.
Unless the hardware (Mediator PCI) gets better supported under Classic OS4.1 I'll be staying with OS3.9, as it seems it will support much more functionality than I'd ever get with Classic OS4.1 as it stands at present.
I'm having to write this message via my Windows XP PC, as IBrowse, my favourite Amiga browser has not been updated, as I'd hoped it would, and so the display under Classic browsers is not so well presented with modern web systems. So I use Firefox, which is the next best browser IMHO, well in fact it may even be a lot better than IBrowse overall, seeing as development with IBrowse has been inactive for sometime now, and to all intents and purposes seems to have been abandoned.
Even then my Windows system cost me £20 for the OS (XP Pro), and £10 for the Motherboard, and £5 for the CPU, with some RAM already on board (1GB). In total my PC setup cost me about half the cost of what Amiga Classic OS4.1 would cost me if I was to pay for it, but it's not got the functionality I need, it's as simple as that - the figures just don't add up to make it economical or ergonomical for me to take the plunge and buy Classic OS4.1.
I really dislike the idea of not buying Classic OS4.x for the Amiga, but I just don't see any benefit at this stage.
Come up with the goods - functionality/compatability/stability, PCI hardware support, and I'd most probably decide to buy Classic OS4.1, but it's a long way off that at present IMHO.
Not as of yet. The developer that has volunteered to work on it is still busy as far as I know.
OK that's understood, but that's another factor not to buy Classic OS4.1 - no Blizzard SCSI support.
Not that I have seen, other than some users have the Radeon working with Elbox's driver. However you lose 3D support and compositing and access to all of the Radeon's memory.
That's something I'm still not sure is usable in Classic OS4.1 - can the RAM on board the Radeon be mapped into the system FastRAM, as it can be using OS3.9 and Elbox's pci.library? So a Blizzard with a fully populated RAM of 256MB, can add some or most of the RAM to make it up to virtually 1/2GB of FastRAM under Classic OS4.1.
It's still a 68k driver and not properly written to use AmigaOS 4.1's PCI sub-system - it uses it's own, so it's not compatible with the above mentioned features.
Not without re-doing kernel support and the entire PCI sub-system and memory arrangement which I don't think is going to happen. (The Mediator is NOT a DMA device in itself).
That I am already all too familar with - no HACKs allowed.
I just want to say that I appreciate your questions and critiques of AmigaOS 4.1 Classic, but you primarily compare it against AmigaOS 4.0 which I don't think is fair,
So tell me, what fundamentally has changed in Classic OS4.1 compared to Classic OS4.0?
Because, quite frankly I still see it as an update, an extensive one for the graphics system, but I don't see what other hardware has really been supported, apart from SATA cards, and there seem to be a few workarounds that have to be manually altered by the user once the OS has been installed, such as for the Deneb/Poseidon.
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and also AmigaOS 3.x which has had 20 years of a healthy and active developer community to tweak and optimize it.
Elbox are still committed to the Mediator, and the Amiga, and I, as a user, don't see why their PCI system, cannot be better incorporated into CLASSIC OS4.1 - maybe not OS4.x for other more modern PPC hardware such as the ACube boards, but why not for the Classic Amiga PPC systems, as we are only shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't get the most out of the PCI system that's available for Classic machines.
AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is an entirely new product, with a new kernel, new drivers, new memory system, and has improved and expanded 3D support, only to mention a few things. In my opinion Hyperion, the developers, and the beta testers have done a superb job on it.
Maybe it's best you see it in action personally from someone in the UK who has it. And by all means if you are not happy with it don't buy it.
There's no-one in my area that I'm aware of that has a Classic OS4.1 A1200 Mediator system that I could take a peek at to see what it offers. Unfortunately, the polarised workshop view of the videos you've released, which I'm grateful for anyway, don't inspire me enough, as not much new PCI hardware is supported. I would have expected that a standard PC commonly available chipset USB card would have been able to be fitted in the Mediator, and work straight off, and for there to have been updated printer support, and of course better soundcard support.
One has to also consider the size of the available market for this product - it's probably far less than 1000 users. We have to balance the potential sales with the development costs and feature set. For my personal view that less than 1000 units will sell, I think it's a very good product for what you get, and it's been stated by Hyperion it will be supported with Update 3 enhancements.
Frankly, if Classic OS4.1 sells to 1000 users then there are 1000 more people with money to throw away in these austere times than I would have thought possible or wise. I'm sticking with spending my money on food as an essential, and not an incomplete OS to keep me warm at night. You're aiming at the faithful, the blind lemming faithful, but no slur intended to you blind lemming faithful out there reading this comment, sorry but that's the way I currently feel about Classic OS4.1.
Software, and updates are of course a good thing, and have to be taken into consideration, but hardware must be supported for an operating system to interface with for it to be useful in the real world, and not just the gaming world.
No new scanner support, no new printer support, no new USB PCI card support, even the soundcard support is a bit 'iffy'. The computing world is moving to USB3, and there should be at least basic USB PCI card support for Amiga OS to stay in touch with the real world, and it's just not delivering what's needed, but the cost of the OS is nicely overpriced. Luvly jubbly.
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OS4 for classic isn't much more than a way for us with powerup cards to test out what it's like. I really don't grasp why they didn't do like MorphOS and finish a version for G4 Minimacs, but then there's very little with how OS4 is done that makes any sense to me :)
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From what I understand, the reason for lack of PCI support is that to support the DMA hack would require a lot of extra work which would hold back development of the primary systems (A1,Sam), AND then compromise those systems in the process, all so that about 50 people with Mediators can run their sound card better.
In their position, I'd do exactly the same!
As said before, Mediator is NOT a DMA device, the driver is a hack which works in a way any modern OS would not allow.
I appreciate it's annoying but we need to be grateful for what we have, and if it's not right for us, then we shouldn't buy it.... but we should still understand what's actually going on.
Every time any OS gets moved forward, intrinsically those things which took advantage of shortcomings will get sacrificed. It's unavoidable. Annoying, yes, but still unavoidable.
For what it's worth, I have a USB sound card on my classic 4.0 system (would be 4.1 but I'm skint!)
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From what I understand, the reason for lack of PCI support is that to support the DMA hack would require a lot of extra work which would hold back development of the primary systems (A1,Sam), AND then compromise those systems in the process, all so that about 50 people with Mediators can run their sound card better.
In their position, I'd do exactly the same!
I stated previously that I thought a modified PCI sub-system should have been implemented just for the Classic systems, separate from the ACube and Eyetech hardware, which should have been done at the planning stage, back in 2003, or earlier, when OS4.0 was being worked on. Hyperion said at the early planning stages of OS4 that there would be a version for Classic systems, but frankly it's been poorly implemented, and I feel most of the effort has gone into the ACube boards, and the Classic systems have really been left as an afterthought, rather than as it should have been their primary goal, seeing as it was the Amiga 'faithful' who bought the Phase 5 PPC hardware, which was the reason for the OS to move forward. The words horse and cart come easily to mind in such circumstances.
I appreciate it's annoying but we need to be grateful for what we have, and if it's not right for us, then we shouldn't buy it.... but we should still understand what's actually going on.
Well, it would be nice to know what is specifically going on, as communications has not historically been one of Hyperion's strong points so far.
Every time any OS gets moved forward, intrinsically those things which took advantage of shortcomings will get sacrificed. It's unavoidable. Annoying, yes, but still unavoidable.
No, I don't agree, if the hardware had been planned for, then I feel sure a way could have been found to implement the Mediator operation into the OS4 sub-systems, after all, it's only digital data, and as long as the CPU knows what to do with the data then it can be made to work, it is just that it has been outlawed, ahem 'unsupported' by Hyperion.
So Hyperion, it seems to me, have shot us all in the foot with not 'supporting' the Elbox DMA 'hack' method, and/or not modified a way or supplied code that would allow Elbox's Mediator to function in a way that works under OS4.x.
It's the only PCI hardware that's still supported for the Classic systems, and Hyperion should have made the best use of it for OS4.x but it's been stymied/thwarted/stumped by the intransigence of Hyperion IMHO..
For what it's worth, I have a USB sound card on my classic 4.0 system (would be 4.1 but I'm skint!)
Do you have an A4000 or an A1200 PPC OS4.0 system?
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I stated previously that I thought a modified PCI sub-system should have been implemented just for the Classic systems, separate from the ACube and Eyetech hardware, which should have been done at the planning stage, back in 2003, or earlier, when OS4.0 was being worked on. Hyperion said at the early planning stages of OS4 that there would be a version for Classic systems, but frankly it's been poorly implemented, and I feel most of the effort has gone into the ACube boards, and the Classic systems have really been left as an afterthought, rather than as it should have been their primary goal, seeing as it was the Amiga 'faithful' who bought the Phase 5 PPC hardware, which was the reason for the OS to move forward. The words horse and cart come easily to mind in such circumstances.
Hyperion don't have infinite resources, though... they can't specialise in the past and the future. They chose to support the future in preference to the past, which is what I would do. Most of the people who have PPC cards will also buy a new machine (which are readily available), whereas the amount of PPC cards available is tiny.
Well, it would be nice to know what is specifically going on, as communications has not historically been one of Hyperion's strong points so far.
I agree there. However, I do think they've made inroads into that problem of late.
No, I don't agree, if the hardware had been planned for, then I feel sure a way could have been found to implement the Mediator operation into the OS4 sub-systems, after all, it's only digital data, and as long as the CPU knows what to do with the data then it can be made to work, it is just that it has been outlawed, ahem 'unsupported' by Hyperion.
So Hyperion, it seems to me, have shot us all in the foot with not 'supporting' the Elbox DMA 'hack' method, and/or not modified a way or supplied code that would allow Elbox's Mediator to function in a way that works under OS4.x.
It's not that simple - there are good technical reasons as to why they stopped supporting it.
People seem far too willing to think that Hyperion just cut features or raise prices because they feel like it. They don't!
The major improvements to OS 4 - particularly OS 4.1 - is in the workings "under the hood". Most of what they've done has been to improve reliability, and to work towards the future for things like SMP. These updates were necessary for new Amigas, but the classics (which took advantage of the simplicity of the memory sub-system under OS 3.x) suffered because of it.
Unless you're going to have a completely different sub-system for classic Mediator users, they're going to be compromised. And nobody can say that putting months of work in for a special case that's only used by 100 people or so is worthwhile for a business.
We're very lucky to have OS 4.1 at all for Classics. It's not on their road-map, they're more interested in future Amigas. We're just lucky that some people still have the time and enthuiasm to keep our Classics up to date.
It's the only PCI hardware that's still supported for the Classic systems, and Hyperion should have made the best use of it for OS4.x but it's been stymied/thwarted/stumped by the intransigence of Hyperion IMHO..
Prometheus is still supported. But the DMA doesn't work in that either (but only beta-testers had DMA anyway and that was a Mediator-style hack).
Do you have an A4000 or an A1200 PPC OS4.0 system?
A4000 with a Prometheus, Voodoo III 3000, RTL8029. I also have a Sam, a Peg II and an G4 AmigaOne, for what it's worth.
I don't mean to sound too scathing, as I can see you're upset that your system isn't supported properly, but from a technical viewpoint (which I have) it's a necessary evil.
We have to remember one thing here - our A1200s and A4000s are nearly 20 years old now. In computer terms that's not just one lifetime, that's several. The fact we're able to run anything modern at all on them is more than remarkable, the hardware just wasn't built for this sort of thing.
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IMHO they should add BlizzardPPC scsi support ASAP.
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I got one, which is a 4 port card, from the link below, but mine cost a little less, and came boxed with 2 serial leads, and a driver CD for Windows.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180679640079
I see your SATA card is a 4 port card. I'm glad to hear someone is using that chipset of SATA card successfully, even though it's maybe slightly limited, but basically that's great news, my only reservation is that you are using it in an A4000, which is better supported/more compatible with Classic OS4.1 than the A1200 version as there seems to be no way to implement wait states, which maybe one of the problems with compatability, but I'd like to hear from Carl Moppett as he is supposed to have a SATA card working in his A1200 Classic OS4.1 setup.
Update - Fitzsteve got his SATA card working. He had an incorrect jumper setting on his Mediator 1200.
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Why has that factor not been made crystal clear before now?
Who would want a system that just doesn't respond well, merely due to installing a PCI soundcard!
Beat's me, but other PCI cards don't exhibit this problem or behaviour. It must be something specific to the SOLO-1 chipset(s). It works. On A1200 and A4000. But I personally still prefer to use Paula. Others may not.
If I remember correctly, the SOLO soundcard was released when 486 PC systems were still available, Microsoft Windows 95 & NT, so it would have been a card that worked in a slower PC system, and even now it can't be made to work invisibly/unnoticeably &/or better and faster in a more multi-tasking operating environment with a faster PPC CPU. Something seems not quite right there.
No idea, I didn't write the driver. Considerable time was spent to try to optimize it with limited success. Anyway, it does work and produce 16-bit sound. Processing sound even on the fastest 060 Amiga system has always been CPU-intensive. This is nothing new.
I had Paula when I had no choice and before the Mediator came along, but now I should revert back to it, because there's basically no soundcard support, DUH!!
Well up to you, but I personally have always liked the sound Paula has generated, especially when hooked up to good speakers. To me it sounds great.
Wow, that's great, but what about the recording facilities that a soundcard offers that the basic Paula chip doesn't offer?
I've personally never had a requirement/need for recording.
It's like making excuses because the underlying kernel doesn't work to accomodate the Classic hardware to allow a hybrid form of DMA that most PCI cards seem to need.
DMA is not going to buy you much. I've already demonstrated marginal if any performance difference between a RTL 8029 and RTL8139 card. Paula sound works great, the Solo-1 card works. You re not going to get much better with a SB128 (which I've also demonstrated you can use...)
The Mediator was around long before any Classic OS4.x was released. So it's not like its method of operating was not known about as Elbox are on the betatesters list with Hyperion, so that 'hack' could have been incorporated/modified to make it system legal, and blend into the OS, or a workaround implemented and supported, if that's possible, so that Elbox could offer more PCI support to Hyperion for use with Classic OS4.x.
I don't know why you keep harping on this. The DMA hack is not going to be implemented by Hyperion, period. ELbox is working on their own drivers that are sort of working now, with their version 10 pci.library. It may be that you can get your DMA hack, but it will come with a cost of losing access to the full memory of the Radeon and also 3D and hardware compositing support (unless Elbox implements that)...
That's the power of PCI in a Classic Amiga system, not this barely supported piece of software called Classic OS4.1, that doesn't support even the basics of PCI hardware - SOUND.
Solo-1 works, SB128 can be used to route sound for a single card solution. Paula works...
But hey, guess what, if you spend £100 you can upgrade to what appears to be the very first backward stepped Amiga OS, brilliant .... NOT
Who's spending 100 pounds? Certainly not you so why are you complaining? You spent money on AmigaOS 4.0 Classic and if you didn't like it why didn't you ask for a refund?
I appreciate you being helpful with all the support you've given to the latest Classic OS4.1, and I really mean that. I also am grateful for you being honest about the hardware, and its limitations, but frankly this is not a good feature of the somewhat limited or as I like to call it a non-Operating system.
You can call it whatever you want. I don't agree with most of what you complain about. For me I like AmigaOS 4.1 Classic, I use it every day, and it works for what it is. It's the best version of the OS for me to use on my Classics. Yes, I still dual boot with AmigaOS 3.9, but for me AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is way better out of the box, supports all the PCI cards I use and performs good enough all things considered. I am happy with it and content in the fact it will be supported in future AmigaOS updates.
You aren't happy and that's your call.
I've already asked them, in this thread, and via their own website support forum, and email/contacts, but I haven't had a reply from them as yet.
Will be interesting to know if you do or not...
I've already got one, or maybe even 2 or 4 of those Sapphire 9250 cards, but I'm hoping my Radeon 9200 256MB card will work, as it is one of the older versions of those cards, so from what you've said I'm optimistic - but I haven't committed to Classic OS4.1 as yet, as I'm still not convinced it's worth it.
The Sapphire Radeon cards will work. That has already been verified.
Unless the hardware (Mediator PCI) gets better supported under Classic OS4.1 I'll be staying with OS3.9, as it seems it will support much more functionality than I'd ever get with Classic OS4.1 as it stands at present.
At least from Hyperion you aren't going to get the DMA hack as there is not enough justification to do it. You may get it anyway with Elbox drivers at a cost as I outlined above.
I'm having to write this message via my Windows XP PC, as IBrowse, my favourite Amiga browser has not been updated, as I'd hoped it would, and so the display under Classic browsers is not so well presented with modern web systems. So I use Firefox, which is the next best browser IMHO, well in fact it may even be a lot better than IBrowse overall, seeing as development with IBrowse has been inactive for sometime now, and to all intents and purposes seems to have been abandoned.
For IBrowse 2.5 beta, you have to ask the Author/owner of the software if that will ever come out...
Even then my Windows system cost me £20 for the OS (XP Pro), and £10 for the Motherboard, and £5 for the CPU, with some RAM already on board (1GB). In total my PC setup cost me about half the cost of what Amiga Classic OS4.1 would cost me if I was to pay for it, but it's not got the functionality I need, it's as simple as that - the figures just don't add up to make it economical or ergonomical for me to take the plunge and buy Classic OS4.1.
This statement is true for the Amiga in general. It is not specific to AmigaOS 4.1 Classic. Amiga has never been cheap, especially the add-on hardware accelerators.
I really dislike the idea of not buying Classic OS4.x for the Amiga, but I just don't see any benefit at this stage.
Well then don't buy it. No one is forcing you.
OK that's understood, but that's another factor not to buy Classic OS4.1 - no Blizzard SCSI support.
We had one developer volunteer to do it, but it's volunteering so we have to be patient.
That's something I'm still not sure is usable in Classic OS4.1 - can the RAM on board the Radeon be mapped into the system FastRAM, as it can be using OS3.9 and Elbox's pci.library? So a Blizzard with a fully populated RAM of 256MB, can add some or most of the RAM to make it up to virtually 1/2GB of FastRAM under Classic OS4.1.
It would be too slow to be usable. We tested the ZorRAM in this capacity and it is up to 10X slower than Blizzard or Cyberstorm PPC ram and slows down the PPC too much.
So tell me, what fundamentally has changed in Classic OS4.1 compared to Classic OS4.0?
There is lots of information on this on the web, I need not go into it here, but just to name a few things all you have to do is go to the AmigaOS 4 wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOS_4#AmigaOS_4.1
For AmigaOS 4.1 Classic you add:
Improved bootloader with large table MMU support
Updated kernel offering increased stability in low memory conditions
Support for virtual memory via harddisk paging
ZororRAM and DKB 3128 support as memory pagers
Improved Mediator support with Radeon 9200 and 9250 using up to 256MB of video memory (correct voltage graphics card required)
Support for PCI sound card (ESS SOLO-1 based cards);
Warp3D hardware acceleration support for Radeon, Voodoo 3/4/5 and Cybervision / Blizzardvision PPC (stable beta version for Permedia2-based cards)
DDC automatic monitor detection for Radeon and Voodoo 3
Hardware compositing engine (Radeon only) with software fall-back
Native FastATA driver support
Native SATA hard disk support via Silicon Image chipsets
Because, quite frankly I still see it as an update, an extensive one for the graphics system, but I don't see what other hardware has really been supported, apart from SATA cards, and there seem to be a few workarounds that have to be manually altered by the user once the OS has been installed, such as for the Deneb/Poseidon.
I see it as a totally new OS.
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It must be something specific to the SOLO-1 chipset(s). It works. On A1200 and A4000.
But from what you've said at the expense of the whole system slowing down, so why couldn't some other soundcard be found to work that doesn't slow the system down?
Processing sound even on the fastest 060 Amiga system has always been CPU-intensive.
But not something that was noticeable under OS3.9, at least not for my system. It all seems to work fairly transparently.
DMA is not going to buy you much.
It would allow more PCI cards to be supported that aren't supported at the moment that are under OS3.9, but then that's me harping on about the DMA hack again.
Solo-1 works, SB128 can be used to route sound for a single card solution. Paula works...
OK, so let's just about agree that SOLO cards work, but at a system cost that makes them unusable, from what you've already said. Never mind the DMA software hack of the Mediator under OS3.9, we've got a hardware hack with the SoundBlaster PCI 128 soundcard under Classic OS4.1 that almost beggars belief, so we're basically stuck with Paula.
That's some improvement for Classic OS4.1 you've got there, to be able to support the sound hardware originally made as part of the motherboard hardware. Geee I'm almost stunned in amazement, let me just sit down for a moment while I take all that in, that's outstanding ... well maybe not.
Who's spending 100 pounds? Certainly not you so why are you complaining?
Because there seems to be so very little headway that's been gained from Classic OS4.0 to Classic OS4.1, and certainly not £100 worth. It's basically a slight improvement over Classic OS4.0 from what I've read and seen, and a lot more trouble to set up than it's worth ... as a "totally new OS", the sales pitch doesn't fool me for a moment.
You spent money on AmigaOS 4.0 Classic and if you didn't like it why didn't you ask for a refund?
I did, but I never got a reply from either AmigaKit or ACube, and forget trying to ask Hyperion as they don't take incoming calls/emails. It's a one-way street - pay us, then we forget you.
You can call it whatever you want. I don't agree with most of what you complain about. For me I like AmigaOS 4.1 Classic, I use it every day, and it works for what it is. It's the best version of the OS for me to use on my Classics. Yes, I still dual boot with AmigaOS 3.9, but for me AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is way better out of the box, supports all the PCI cards I use and performs good enough all things considered. I am happy with it and content in the fact it will be supported in future AmigaOS updates.
If a more mature version of Classic OS4.x comes along then I may consider it, but this seems to be yet another half-hearted stab at releasing a Classic version of OS4.x that isn't mature enough for release as a commercial OS - never mind a hobby one.
You aren't happy and that's your call.
Agreed
Will be interesting to know if you do or not...
I got a reply from AmigaKit saying their test system of an A1200 with both a Mediator SX and TX both were working with their SATA cards, but AmigaKit never said which chipset is on the SATA cards they are selling. So I'll have to ask again about the chipset, and wait a week or so for a reply it seems.
For IBrowse 2.5 beta, you have to ask the Author/owner of the software if that will ever come out...
Trying to contact or get any information from Stefan Burstroem is like asking Hyperion for some information it seems to me. I might as well talk to the wall.
For AmigaOS 4.1 Classic you add:
Improved bootloader with large table MMU support
Updated kernel offering increased stability in low memory conditions
Support for virtual memory via harddisk paging
This should have been in Classic OS4.0, never mind in Classic OS4.1
ZororRAM and DKB 3128 support as memory pagers
Basically A4000 PPC users only for that hardware.
Improved Mediator support with Radeon 9200 and 9250 using up to 256MB of video memory (correct voltage graphics card required)
That's one improvement, and only available for Mediator users, but the PCI hardware is not taken best advantage of by Classic OS4.1 IMHO.
Support for PCI sound card (ESS SOLO-1 based cards);
Basically it's going to cripple anyone's system who uses it, so why bother, from what you've said, so that's not an improvement really.
Warp3D hardware acceleration support for Radeon, Voodoo 3/4/5 and Cybervision / Blizzardvision PPC (stable beta version for Permedia2-based cards)
DDC automatic monitor detection for Radeon and Voodoo 3
Hardware compositing engine (Radeon only) with software fall-back
All GFX related, nice but a good GFX system does not make the entire OS, and besides which much of this part of the GFX system should have been in Classic OS4.0, which is one of the reasons why this 'release' should be an upgrade for Classic OS4.0 users.
Native FastATA driver support
Good, but Elbox had no more stock of the FastATA for the A1200, and so it's just as well that AmigaKit have organised new stock from them to allow Classic OS4.1 upgraders to add the benefit of this hardware to their system. I saw that fitzsteve had a lot of trouble getting it to work, and he's the only person I've seen on the forums struggling with Classic OS4.1 and getting anywhere, and that took him quite a while to achieve what he did, but I am glad for his sake that you were there to help him through the ordeal.
I really don't like complaining about the shortcomings of Classic OS4.1, and I agree that my complaints are mainly due to aspects of the Mediator that are not taken best advantage of, but surely some PCI USB hardware should have been supported, as it's much more important than PCI SATA.
However, I feel that the Mediator mess is mainly due to the mishandling of the OS by Hyperion. I feel they thought of the Classic hardware as an after-thought, seemingly spending too much of their time developing the OS for the ACube PPC hardware.
We should not forget though that even before Classic OS4.1's release, Classic OS4.0 was Hyperion's BEST-SELLER, but their initial Classic OS4.0 was such a poor release it put off more people and they left the Amiga scene, at least that's the way it seems to me, as I almost left the Amiga at that stage. This release is not much better than Classic OS4.0, from what I've seen, and it seems to be a '817ch' to set up.
Native SATA hard disk support via Silicon Image chipsets
I didn't think that would make it into the release, but I'm glad that it did, and that is one tick for Classic OS4.1, but that's all I see as a real hardware benefit for Classic OS4.1, and so that's about the top and bottom of what's noticeable for me.
I see it as a totally new OS.
Well you might be seeing some improvement, seeing as you've been on the Betatesting team, but I don't see enough to seriously consider it a totally new OS, IMHO.
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I'm not going to read this thread for a while, as I feel it (Classic OS4.1) is a real letdown, both price, features, and usability, and until/if it changes I won't be considering buying it.
It should be an upgrade for Classic OS4.0 users, and it's a disgrace it isn't.
Many of us who bought Classic OS4.0, I dare say, won't forget the awful experience we went through, well I certainly won't, for our cherished computer the Amiga for some considerable time to come.
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I'm not going to read this thread for a while, as I feel it (Classic OS4.1) is a real letdown, both price, features, and usability, and until/if it changes I won't be considering buying it.
It should be an upgrade for Classic OS4.0 users, and it's a disgrace it isn't.
Many of us who bought Classic OS4.0, I dare say, won't forget the awful experience we went through, well I certainly won't, for our cherished computer the Amiga for some considerable time to come.
I think you're being a little hard on the OS. Yes, it still has some rough edges, but the fact that an OS for hardware this old is still being actively developed is pretty amazing.