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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: on July 20, 2003, 10:11:16 PM

Title: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: on July 20, 2003, 10:11:16 PM
From Slashdot:
"According to this story, IBM is planning on introducing low-end SMP servers and deskside machines based on the PPC970. The machines would be able to run Linux and AIX. A 4-way machine is expected to cost less than $3500! IBM expects a 20x increase in the number of PPC Linux servers by 2006."

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1197450,00.asp (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1197450,00.asp)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: bloodline on July 20, 2003, 10:16:01 PM
Quote

mdma wrote:
From Slashdot:
"According to this story, IBM is planning on introducing low-end SMP servers and deskside machines based on the PPC970. The machines would be able to run Linux and AIX. A 4-way machine is expected to cost less than $3500! IBM expects a 20x increase in the number of PPC Linux servers by 2006."

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1197450,00.asp (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1197450,00.asp)


Yup, and since they use OF, expect to see AROS on them :-)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Gaidheal on July 20, 2003, 10:20:52 PM
Wooohooo!  Been waiting for this....

No prizes for guessing my upgrade path :¬)

Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: KennyR on July 20, 2003, 10:58:14 PM
$3500 is cheap??!?

(Okay, it is for this kind of hardware. It's still out of the price range of 98% of computer users though).
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Jose on July 20, 2003, 11:04:43 PM
Hope they make OS4 drivers for it, even if it runs just on 32bit mode. Wasn't OSX goind to run on 32bit  mode too, at least for now?
This is the big advantage of HAL, now they only (ok , maybe not so trivial ) have to do the drivers for it.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: KennyR on July 21, 2003, 01:29:10 AM
Why would they make OS4 drivers for it?
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: iamaboringperson on July 21, 2003, 01:33:34 AM
wow! that is cheap and ibm make such good machines too!

i wonder if MorphOS will be ported to it?
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: iamaboringperson on July 21, 2003, 01:35:03 AM
Quote

Jose wrote:
Hope they make OS4 drivers for it, even if it runs just on 32bit mode. Wasn't OSX goind to run on 32bit  mode too, at least for now?
This is the big advantage of HAL, now they only (ok , maybe not so trivial ) have to do the drivers for it.
:-? who's 'they'?

and there is not really any such '32-bit mode'
32bit software just runs on 64bit cpus
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Jose on July 21, 2003, 01:44:39 AM
I hope someone makes AOS4 drivers for it that's all.
For the very same reason some people would like MOS drivers for it.
That's all folks.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: iamaboringperson on July 21, 2003, 01:48:20 AM
What are you going to use the drivers with? linux?
Jose, there is no point in making 'OS4 drivers' if there is no AOS4 on it! :crazy:
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: MarkTime on July 21, 2003, 02:42:28 AM
Yes 3500 is cheap, for a 4 way blade server.

Don't forget the low end is a 2 way configuration.
and that version will be less than 3500.

One could only hope it  comes in at 1500 or so....its all good news anyway, cause it means the 970 has a long lifespan and should remain competitive for a while.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: CodeSmith on July 21, 2003, 03:23:37 AM
@IAABP:

I think he means OS4 motherboard drivers (like Windows has Intel and VIA motherboard drivers that come on a CD with the motherboard).  On an OS that has a HAL (like Windows NT and AmigaOS, dunno about MOS, probably does) the motherboard is just another "device" for which you write drivers.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: CodeSmith on July 21, 2003, 03:34:54 AM
@bloodline:

Although OF is a pretty good idea, you're a bit limited in the gfx cards that you can use (ie "Mac" gfx cards), and they are usually more expensive.  It might be a good idea to add a UBoot driver to AROS, so you can have both.  With UBoot you can use cheap "PC" gfx cards (it's got a built-in x86 emulator so the card's BIOS can run on that).  Since it's on SourceForge (or if not, should be by the time AOS4 is released), it should not be too difficult to find out what you need.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Madgun68 on July 21, 2003, 03:58:40 AM
Quote
Although OF is a pretty good idea, you're a bit limited in the gfx cards that you can use (ie "Mac" gfx cards), and they are usually more expensive. It might be a good idea to add a UBoot driver to AROS, so you can have both. With UBoot you can use cheap "PC" gfx cards (it's got a built-in x86 emulator so the card's BIOS can run on that). Since it's on SourceForge (or if not, should be by the time AOS4 is released), it should not be too difficult to find out what you need.


Surely this isn't completely true. The Voodoo3 in my Pegasos machine is PC centric, not a Mac version. I've also had my pc's Radeon card running in the machine too.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Floid on July 21, 2003, 04:04:10 AM
Quote

CodeSmith wrote:
Although OF is a pretty good idea, you're a bit limited in the gfx cards that you can use (ie "Mac" gfx cards), and they are usually more expensive.  It might be a good idea to add a UBoot driver to AROS, so you can have both.  With UBoot you can use cheap "PC" gfx cards (it's got a built-in x86 emulator so the card's BIOS can run on that).  Since it's on SourceForge (or if not, should be by the time AOS4 is released), it should not be too difficult to find out what you need.
It depends on the OF, obviously; whoever wrote Genesi's has included support, so far as I know.  The question will be whether IBM follows suit, or decides these are destined for the datacenter anyway, and don't make such concessions.

The 'rack/deskside model' would have to have a graphics option of some form - either a generic onboard chipset, if it's a pricey pizza box, or a high-end solution if it's designed for visualization work.  (I'd be most surprised to see a high-end 'consumer' chipset, but the PPC division *have* collaborated with a certain ATI in the recent past...)

Also, as far as I know, there's not much stopping the appropriate emulator (or just direct driver code) from running in software.  Apple doesn't want to do it because it's a kludge, and would further discourage vendors from producing Mac versions of their product ('Works with Mac!' shelf presence is an important advertising tool, as always)... but if you don't mind keeping the original card in for the first display/boot-time diagnostics/OF-hacking-or-poking-with-sticks, I don't think there's any barrier to firing up a 'generic' Wintel card after/while the OS loads.  (Seriously, anyone know if this works under, say, YellowDog or Debian kernels on a Mac?  I could swear it does.)

If it ends up PCI-X and AGPless, as many 'server' boards are appearing these days, it's not like you'll lose much of anything picking one slot over another.  (As an example, here's an Opteron board with a diagram of its slot layout (http://www.amdboard.com/tyan_s2880_opteron_board.html).)

Now, the question is whether OS4, or MOS for that matter, will have SMP support worth the port...
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Floid on July 21, 2003, 04:21:05 AM
Hm, addressing one of my own points, if IBM's recycling any of Apple's chipset work:

"Three 64-bit PCI-X slots let you add one card running at 133MHz and two cards running at 100MHz. Three 32-bit PCI slots allow you to add three 33MHz cards." (http://www.apple.com/powermac/expansion.html) -- From the Mac G5 'Expansion' page.

But then, they've got AGP 8X onboard. (http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html)  Yet again, no way to predict if IBM will follow... or even if they'll cripple the functionality just to please Apple, if they use the same chips.

As contrast, the Rage XL in the Tyan is hung off the PCI bus, since it's just a server design, using AMD's 8111 (HT->PCI + integrated peripherals) and 8131 (HT->PCI-X), without the 8151 (HT->AGP) companion chip.  (Diagram of AMD's architecture here (http://www.amdboard.com/opteron_chipsets_amd.html); Via and NVidia are taking more integrated paths (http://www.amdboard.com/opteron_chipsets.html), since they haven't had to rush about it, and don't need to demo Hypertransport's ability -- Via's design uses their proprietary V-Link anyway, and I've no idea what NVidia's ever been up to.)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: CodeSmith on July 21, 2003, 04:24:32 AM
The voodoo3 works because 3DFX were a really great company and provided all sorts of info needed to write a complete driver.  ATI is like that too (hence the OS4 Radeon drivers from Forefront and the MOS drivers you're using), but there are many other companies (nVidia comes to mind) that refuse to hand out hardware documentation unless you promise them loads of cash first.  For those cards you need to be able to run the routines in their BIOS.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: CodeSmith on July 21, 2003, 04:28:18 AM
@Floyd:

I thought IBM were going to use Marvell and Articia chips?  :-?
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: mschulz on July 21, 2003, 08:15:39 AM
Quote
Although OF is a pretty good idea, you're a bit limited in the gfx cards that you can use (ie "Mac" gfx cards), and they are usually more expensive.


Of course you are mistaken. First of all, there is no need to use framebuffer (or even textmode) console in order to boot machine. You may initialize gfx card later on by OS itself.

Secondly many OF intefaced do provide real mode X86 emulation. It is for example true on my PReP machine: Motorola Powerstack.

Surely gfx support (either through build in p-code drivers or through x86 emulator) is nice-to-have feature, as you can use then initialized framebuffer screen and provide generic gfx driver, it's not needed.

BTW.  Thanks to OF interface, the same AROS image is able (in theory) to boot from NewWorld CHRP Mac's, IBM PReP machines, Motorola PReP machines and Pegasos. Is then really UBoot better solution for AROS?
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: CodeSmith on July 21, 2003, 08:20:42 AM
OK look, I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest.  I suggested that they add UBoot support (NOT remove OpenFirmware).  If you believe that we only need one of anything, let me introduce you to one Mr Bill Gates, he also believe this.  He's being very succesful implementing it too, at present rate there won't be anything but Wintel boxes in a couple of years.  That should make you happy, there will only be one type of computer, running one type of OS on one type of firmware.  Choice sucks, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: mschulz on July 21, 2003, 08:42:07 AM
Quote
OK look, I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest.


Me neither. I hate quarrels and wars within such a small community. What I was going to tell is that AROS does support OF interface currently and I find it sufficient. OF is also an open standard (therefore the Bill G. issue makes no sence, think rather about boom of IBM PC clones).

Of course I would love to add UBoot support simply to be able to launch AROS on machines like AmigaOne. Unfortunatelly I do not have any access to this platform and I will not write anything blindly with hope that it might work somewhere. If any AROS developer will be able to provide UBoot support, belive me that we will implement it.  :-)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Jupp3 on July 21, 2003, 09:55:48 AM
CodeSmith:

About possibility of running GFX cards, where manufacturer hasn't
provided any information...

Don't see much point in installing such board... If it can be booted
with emulator, so what? If they don't provide info for "booting" I'd
guess it's the same for 3D/2D drivers etc...

So, you likely wouldn't be able to use all cards' features...

If you ask me, "Better get better supported card instead"
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Floid on July 21, 2003, 10:42:14 AM
Quote

CodeSmith wrote:
The voodoo3 works because 3DFX were a really great company and provided all sorts of info needed to write a complete driver.  ATI is like that too (hence the OS4 Radeon drivers from Forefront and the MOS drivers you're using), but there are many other companies (nVidia comes to mind) that refuse to hand out hardware documentation unless you promise them loads of cash first.  For those cards you need to be able to run the routines in their BIOS.
Well...  For one thing, it's a non-issue, because SciTech's taken care of it no matter how obfuscated they've made it (yes, only for 2D, but that's what you need to 'run' an OS), and in any case, I'm fairly certain XFree86's support (http://xfree86.org/current/Status23.html#23) - again 2D - extends to the level necessary, even if it's not the prettiest 'documentation' to follow.  That said, I haven't looked at what, say, FreeBSD or NetBSD do to probe and initialize the cards, as it's a bit too 5AM for that, and I wouldn't know what to look for anyway.

XFree source here. (http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/drivers/nv/)  It's one thing to claim it's technically impossible, it's another thing to say "sure, it's technically possible, but who in their right mind would go through the trouble when the vendor's 'hostile?'"

I can muster some sympathy for NVidia, since unlike ATI, they're still something of an upstart, and I gather their financials have yet to even out - but yeah, until they learn to play fair, I'll continue wishing Matrox had a product up to par. ;)

Point is, recycling an old TNT2 or something for 2D while you look for a 'supported card' should at least be possible, and if there'd be issues with Linux on the IBM hardware, they'd be wise to solve that right quick; at least IBM's PC division is still a customer.

As to Mai and Marvell... are you serious?  While there's always the possibility- and it seems like the PowerPC divison wouldn't mind farming out development to such third parties if they could keep up- the 970 is, to put it lightly, "hella new," and unless either company have been involved in the R&D of same, Apple and IBMs chipsets will be the most advanced, and the reference for others to follow.  (Something that never quite worked out for PReP/POP, but it smells like the PPC guys has been willing to learn something from AMD's recent rise.)

Remember, these things don't use the MPX bus of the earlier PowerPCs - it's as big a leap as from Socket 7 to the Alpha EV7 bus used on the Athlon, or from EV7 to Hypertransport on the Opteron/A64 - and as far as I can tell, no civilian knows whether Apple, IBM, or someone else's name is on any of the support chips used in the G5 Macs.  (Heck, from MacOSRumors.com -- "For most Mac users, the biggest news was that estimated shipping dates on PowerMac G5 pre-orders have changed from 'On or Before September 2nd, 2003' to 'On or Before August 29, 2003'" -- looks like we've still got a while to find out.)

---

@mschulz:  Thanks for the info; I wasn't aware (or just plumb forgot) that anyone'd bothered with the emulation before this round of boards.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: bloodline on July 21, 2003, 10:50:39 AM
Quote

CodeSmith wrote:
@bloodline:

Although OF is a pretty good idea, you're a bit limited in the gfx cards that you can use (ie "Mac" gfx cards), and they are usually more expensive.  It might be a good idea to add a UBoot driver to AROS, so you can have both.  With UBoot you can use cheap "PC" gfx cards (it's got a built-in x86 emulator so the card's BIOS can run on that).  Since it's on SourceForge (or if not, should be by the time AOS4 is released), it should not be too difficult to find out what you need.


As Michal has already said, UBoot support will be added to AROS as soon as we are able to get a UBoot based machine (i.e. an AmigaONE).

At the moment Michal only has OF based PPC machines and so that is all we can support for now.  :-(
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Gaidheal on July 21, 2003, 12:32:52 PM
Cheap?  Yup, certainly is.  Take a good hard look at the specs again.  Targetted at 98% of computer users?  Not likely!  But I am not one of that 98%, hence my interest.  An extremely powerful workstation is EXACTLY what I want and if it comes specced as suggested, at < $3,500  even allowing for the fact they never properly convert the price to sterling, but often just swap $ for £ it is within my grasp for that kind of power.  It remains to be seen whether they put the kind of graphics support I'd really want on it... but then, it's all just a press release for now :¬)

Re: UBoot - want it supported by AROS?  Send an A1 to an AROS developer.  Sorry folks!  AROS is an Open Source, part time (almost 'hobby') project.  It has professionals working on it, but I doubt anyone can justify buying an A1 merely to port AROS to it because people have asked for it.  Not at this point in time anyway.  If you've got an A1 and you are interested in AROS and/or you are a developer, why not join the project and see about working on UBoot support?
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: olegil on July 21, 2003, 01:50:19 PM
I have a patch that make Voodoo cards run in Linux from a non-initialised state (patch to tdfxfb.c, by Adam Kowalzyk(sp?)). Bernd Meyer tells me there is also support in the Matrox framebuffer for taking up a card from non-initialised stage. All other drivers in Linux (and X) depend on the card being set up by the BIOS. This is the problem.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: mschulz on July 21, 2003, 02:10:08 PM
Quote
All other drivers in Linux (and X) depend on the card being set up by the BIOS. This is the problem.


But it doesn't have to: Scitech X86 Emulator (http://www.scitechsoft.com/products/developer/x86_emulator.html)
 :-)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: bloodline on July 21, 2003, 02:50:58 PM
Quote

mschulz wrote:
Quote
All other drivers in Linux (and X) depend on the card being set up by the BIOS. This is the problem.


But it doesn't have to: Scitech X86 Emulator (http://www.scitechsoft.com/products/developer/x86_emulator.html)
 :-)


Hmmm.... The Emu is designed to allow GFX cards POST using their own BIOS rom chips.

maybe this emu would someday be come part of the chipset of every platform...
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Gaidheal on July 21, 2003, 03:11:20 PM
@Matt:

We can hope... but don't count on it with nVidia (whose cards I use and love, by the way)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: asian1 on July 21, 2003, 03:20:12 PM
Hello
When I ask SuperMicro, Tyan, about their Quad Xeon, the price is
approx US$ 3000. The Quad Opteron (Newisys) is cheaper.
Perhaps IBM will port their AIX to the new machine for
running leading business apps: Oracle, RDBMS, ERP, CRM, SAP etc.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: joe_avarage on July 21, 2003, 04:07:29 PM
Quote
We can hope... but don't count on it with nVidia (whose cards I use and love, by the way)

Well, at least a GF2 MX runs on my AmigaOne ... last time I tried in text mode only, though. XFree/fbdev seems to have some troubles (hangs after fbset, haven't tried any X native GF driver though)...maybe I should give that a try again with the 2.4.21 kernel...
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: Gaidheal on July 21, 2003, 04:21:30 PM
@asian1

IBM already said they will put AIX onto the 970 based servers :¬)
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: iamaboringperson on July 22, 2003, 02:34:23 AM
looks like ibm will pretty soon have AIX SMP machines in the bargain basement range... :lol:
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: asian1 on July 22, 2003, 05:20:22 AM
>Cheap AIX SMP

Hello
IF SCO win the UNIX Case against IBM, will AIX became worthless software?

Today I contacted local IBM Office. Their official reply:
IBM does not sell direct to customer! The customer should use X86 SMP
machines for low cost. IBM DOES NOT SELL PowerPC machine to customer!
The only non X86 machine is US$ 100,000 machine based on POWER4 CPU.

They ask me to contact IBM re-sellers. Their reply: WE DON'T SELL
any PowerPC machine, we only sell Windows based IBM X86 PC!!
We don't support any AIX or LINUX machine. IF you want to buy
PowerPC machine, BUY FROM APPLE!

I wonder if the machine will receive NO SUPPORT and IBM Sales WILL HATE
the machine, similar to OS/2 PRODUCTS, because IBM Sales 100% SUPPORT
INTEL & MS Monopoly.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: anarchic_teapot on July 22, 2003, 10:44:06 AM
Quote

asian1 wrote:

I wonder if the machine will receive NO SUPPORT and IBM Sales WILL HATE
the machine, similar to OS/2 PRODUCTS, because IBM Sales 100% SUPPORT
INTEL & MS Monopoly.


The excessive CAPITALS say it all: you're going off the deep end for nothing. All you've been told is that IBM do not sell PowerPC equipment to end users. MAI don't sell AmigaOnes to end users either: try to order one from them and you'll be referred to Eyetech.

In fact MAI/Eyetech have a very good relationship with IBM's PPC division.
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: iamaboringperson on July 22, 2003, 07:18:43 PM
asian1,
its probably strictly B2B or somthing

you are right yough, ibm should be a bit more open with their RS/6000 market etc...
im sure there are plenty of individuals who would love to have one sitting on their desk, if only they were more accessable!
Title: Re: Cheap PPC Linux Machines From IBM
Post by: on July 22, 2003, 07:33:51 PM
Quote

iamaboringperson wrote:
asian1,
its probably strictly B2B or somthing

you are right yough, ibm should be a bit more open with their RS/6000 market etc...
im sure there are plenty of individuals who would love to have one sitting on their desk, if only they were more accessable!


I turned down the chance of buying an RS/6000 workstation about 3 years ago, as a bloke I worked with said it would just be a dumb terminal with no PPC CPU inside.  I hope he was telling me the truth, as it was only £20 (bankrupt stock), and there were about 20 of these machines in the shop for sale.