Amiga.org

Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: DFergATL on February 18, 2004, 04:30:08 PM

Title: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 18, 2004, 04:30:08 PM
This is something that has been on my mind for at least a week so I thought I would post my thoughts here.  Does anyone have any ideas on how to attract more devlopers to AROS?  I know that requests have gone out, the bounty program started ect..  But if I am not mistaken we still only have the same core of devlopers, less than a handfull at any given time.  These people are talented and work very hard to get things done but they also have lives, school etc.  I am very glad that the bounty program was started and now there is literaly hundreds of dollars these people can earn for doing what they love.  But we, the people who belive in AROS, need to come up with ways to get more devlopers working on it.  Each time something new gets completed I have seen posts, "This is great...", "It will be nice when this " " is completed", but no new devlopers come on borad to help.  I fear that the progess will continue to be slow to the point that it may not reach useablity, of any kind, for years to come.  I belive that AROS could be good for the Amiga community as, if nothing else, a way for people to get an idea of what the Amiga enviorment looks and feels like without having to invest in new hardware.  Sort of, try this and if you like it you should see it's big brother.  So, any ideas??  Any at all???  Please no flames like "You, could code yourself." really if I could I would.  So, this is for all of us who believe in it but can't actually write code ourselves.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: bloodline on February 18, 2004, 04:43:26 PM
More hardware hackers. Thats what AROS needs.


-Edit- 68K, x86, PPC... whatever! we need them.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: that_punk_guy on February 18, 2004, 04:45:09 PM
I'm in the "if I could..." boat too regarding coding... it seems like people are too busy writing new stuff for the Classic/OS4/MOS solutions. But the general perception of AROS as a realistic, usable alternative is improving all the time - here's hoping it snowballs...

As for getting the momentum going, I dunno... The bloodline approach would get on everyone's nerves if everyone did it. At the same time, it's almost like people laugh, pat Matt on the head and then get back to the "real work." :-(

AROS suits me better politically than any of the other solutions - it's cross-platform, open-source and free of the "your Bill's more exploitative than our Bill" crap.

Hmm, I dunno. It is slowly growing, perhaps it's just a case of sticking at it...
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 18, 2004, 05:07:15 PM
hmm, maybe we cold start an "AROS" boosters club or something.  We could all stand around with Pom Poms chanting "Go AROS, Go AROS..."  something, anything.  I just wonder if any of these people who go back to the "real work" of coding for the classic Amgia stop to consider.  If AROS was in a useable state and is "source compatiable" with the software they are devoping, runs on a lot more hardware.  How many more copies of said software can they sell??  I realise that AROS will not gain wide spred adoption.  But the Amiga community is very, very small.  If only a few thousand people were using AROS that could mean a good amount of money to some of these small Amiga devlopers.  No, I do not believe that a few thousand users for a complete version of AROS is unreasonalbe.  AROS would be free or at least inexpensive if someone did "packaging" and could eaisly see quite a number of people trying it out.  The point is there is a lot of "professional quality" software for the Amiga, which is more than can be said for other "hobby", "alt." operating systems out there.  
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: Glorix on February 18, 2004, 05:15:48 PM
The only way I could contribute is by doing some testing, and prolly update their site more regularly than they can achieve atm. Or provide them with a periodical update, for them to put on their site. (There'd have to be something developed worthy of a site-update of course).
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: dammy on February 18, 2004, 05:34:25 PM
The best way, IMO, is to talk to old Amiga users.  Couple times a month, I'll be chatting in IRC on a non-Amiga related channel to find someone who use to own an Amiga.  They are quiet suprised to find out about AROS even exists and even more suprised it runs on x86.  If you can't code/documenation, or support TeamAROS (http://www.thenostromo.com/teamaros/), you can still burn a couple of AROS CDs and hand them out.  C= produced 7 million Amigas, there are quiet a few of those former Amgia owners who would love to know about AROS.  Few of those maybe old coders. ;)

Dammy
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 18, 2004, 06:07:03 PM
I have done the burn and give the CD before.  And it is great I know a few others who would use AROS.  But we are in a "holding pattern" as far as it really isn't useable for anything at this time.  I don't know any devlopers who are interested in AROS.  I do know devlopers but they just aren't interested in devloping for AROS, the bums.  But, as soon as I can burn off CDs and show people what it can do... Belive me I will be a CD burning fool.  I have access to a CD copier so there will be copies everywhere around the places I go.  It just needs to be more than a "look pretty."
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: dammy on February 18, 2004, 06:16:45 PM
by DFergATL on 2004/2/18 13:07:03


Quote
I do know devlopers but they just aren't interested in devloping for AROS, the bums.


We really do need to look outside the current community for more developers.  I wonder if there are any Amiga communities in EuroAsia or Central America that may have a few devs that are not aware of AROS or the bounties?

Dammy
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: Glorix on February 18, 2004, 06:36:03 PM
@Dammy:
If you need documentation, I might be able to lend a hand too. I could write in English, French and Dutch. I come from a company which has a policy to only document finished products tho (no pun), so I'm not really sure what sort of documentation you mean. Howto's?

As for developers, I only know 4GL ppl...
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: dammy on February 18, 2004, 06:54:07 PM
@ Glorix

If your interested, I would suggest you would join the AROS-DEV ML (http://mail.aros.org/mailman/listinfo/aros-dev/) and or join the devs in IRC chat, irc.freenode.org in #aros channel.  I'm sure they can use any time you have to donate.

Dammy
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 18, 2004, 07:13:54 PM
For my own part about all I could do other than "Preach the AROS Gospel" and donate to the Team AROS whenever I can is..  End user support.  I have been doing end user support for 8 years, various hardware, software, mostly Windoze.  So, when it is time I would be more than willing and able to help new users get started, help others with questions or problems etc..  Just give me somthing to support, please!  Pretty please....
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: melott on February 18, 2004, 10:26:14 PM
Well ... I've said this before, I guess I'll say it again.

I don't think AROS will go anywhere until it gets 68k
compatability on th x86 platform.
Until dummies like me can take their 68k software and
plug it into any old PC, there's no attraction. ( IMHO )
There needs to be a software base to attract.
Get AROS to that point and it will get all the users it
wants.
There are guys still writting for the classic Amiga.
What do you think they would do if they had a OS that
they could write to the 68k or the x86??
I suspect that would get alot of interest.

( it's only my opinion )

Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 18, 2004, 10:38:23 PM
I don't completly agree.  While I will say that being able to run 68k software would be great I don't think that is completly necessary.  There is pleanty of other software still in devlopemnt that could be "recompiled" for AROS.  This is not to say that 68k is not important I just don't see it as the big stumbling block.  Either way this thread isn't about getting AROS users. It is about getting more AROS devlopers so that maybe one of them could work on getting the 68k stuff as intrigrated as possiable.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: melott on February 18, 2004, 11:26:55 PM
OK.. and I don't quite agree with about users.
Since in the case of AROS the user IS the developer.
You are not going to attract any commerical developers.
Ask yourself "Why would they spend money developing for
a system that has no users?"
Also your target IS the Classic Amiga user. The PC and MAC
user converts would be too few to count.
So that leaves you with 'Classic Amiga' users.
When Amiga first came out, it was a totally different era.
The PC was crap, so you had APPLE and ATARI.
Amiga got its following from the C=64, a very large group.
Open mindly look around, AROS has nothing to get the user
over to it and since Amiga Classic users are the AROS
target.... well its got to go 68k compatable or die.

(its only my opinion )
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: 4pLaY on February 18, 2004, 11:44:20 PM
One thing is sure and thats the fact that AROS isnt dying anytime soon =) AROS is here to stay and unless something HUGE happens with MOS/OS4 (not likely) AROS is gonna grow bigger and bigger and one day (i belive so) it will be much bigger then them thanx to its open and free code! as for the 68k intergration thats been talked to death before and its a BAD idea at least for AROS on PCs! if your interest in AROS stops there just forget about AROS cause it wont suit YOUR needs :) its as simple as that.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: amigean on February 18, 2004, 11:50:08 PM
I agree with melott (and it is only my opinion - well and his) :-)

Melott is quite right that it is the Amiga user AROS is (primarily) intended for...

68k support would be a good stepstone to get people to migrate - once there then x86 specific code can be developed further

it doesn't have to be amithlon, but compatibility never harmed any software

btw - Great job Matt and the others, keep it up.... I wish I could write code! :-(


Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 19, 2004, 01:11:43 AM
I think my origional point has been lost on a few people.  I understand who the target audience is.  I understand that companies are not going to port their projects to an incomplete OS.  My point is this, if more devlopers don't work on AROS it might not ever get to that point of being a complete OS.  Everyone just sits around saying "When it can run 68k code", "When it is more complete".  There are only a handful, at best, of developers trying to get AROS to a state where even porting software could even be considered.  So, what it needs is more devlopers trying to get it to the point where it is useful.  If everyone just sits around waiting for the day it becomes useful, it could take a long, long, long time.  This is an OS that the Amiga community can actively take part in making it the OS they want. I believe that there is some "Majic line" that when AROS reaches it people will start porting things over to it. Yet, only a few devlopers are currently working to reach that "Majic line".  I agree 68k software would be great.  I agree that current and past Amiga users are the target.  I agree that AROS will need users in order to justify porting a lot of the current software.  So, lets all just sit around waiting for the 3-5 devlopers working on it, in there spare time, to get it finished. Once agin I will ask the question I did in the origional post.  Does anyone have any good ideas on how we can get some more devlopers to help out with AROS, to reach that "Majic line?"  There is a bounty program with hundreds of dollars just sitting there, waiting...  Lonely little dollars in need of a good home.  Cute, loveable little dollars, begging "take me home, take me home."
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: amigean on February 19, 2004, 02:09:22 AM
perhaps an idea would be to host AROS 'shows' in various venues to raise awareness - however I believe this can only be done when we have something to show that can do more than AROS does today

the fact that a native gcc compiler now exists for AROS should in theory make porting easier. So my guess is that we might soon be seeing people recompiling familiar software for AROS...

another idea would be to approach ex-amiga entusiasts/developers (not companies) - by emailing them directly and drawing their attention to the existence of AROS...

targetting young talented programmers with loads of time on their hands could also be useful: university campuses can be a good source of such people - what about making posters that all of us who go to university (or live near one) could put on billboards on their uni's IT departments?

I could certainly help with the above if we were to be co-ordinated somehow

Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 19, 2004, 02:26:27 AM
I like those ideas.  I am not a college student myself.  But I live near Atlanta.  I agree it needs to do a bit more.  Hopefully the TCP/IP will get worked on, I do believe that the bounty for that is up to $550.  I really think that if most of the currently outstanding bounties can get completed that would help a great deal.  There is one for the 68k and I am not discounting it but not really counting it in this context.  Once people get get some internet acess, able to install it on any partition and boot directly into it.  I think that is a resonable goal and one that could be not too far away.  I could try to get into the hand of some students at Georgia Tech, once I can figure out how. The bounties have really grown over the last month or so.  I don't think that any of them are less than $150 and a lot are $250 or more.  For example:  If someone can write a FAT driver, it could be worth $250.  Not bad, I dont' think.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: dammy on February 19, 2004, 03:34:12 AM
by melott on 2004/2/18 17:26:14

Quote
I don't think AROS will go anywhere until it gets 68k
compatability on th x86 platform.


For me, AROS' UAE is just fine enough for running the old Amiga Apps.  YMMV.

Dammy
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: melott on February 19, 2004, 03:44:34 AM
I beleave the origonal intent of AROS was to be 68k
compatable. As the Classic Amiga machines died off people
would just take their software over to AROS on the x86.
Otherwise why was the Kickstart rom ported over?
I beleave the AROS team decided at some point to change
directions for a universal OS and forget the 68k.
For many months there appears to be no real interest
in the 68k. So as far as I'm concerned and I suspect a
great many others ( Classic Amigans ) AROS is a non-issue.
We keep our Classics alive and as for me, I'll buy a
'Cold Fusion' accellerator when/if they come out.
The only option on the horizon for a fast 'Classic'.

You want to know why no one wants to develope for AROS.
All the facts are there ( cold and hartless ) just look.

I'm sorry, I had high hopes for AROS too, but they are
more or less dead.
I commend the AROS Team for their accomplishments, but
in the end I think ....'Whats the point??'

( its only my opinion )

Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 19, 2004, 04:03:53 AM
Ok, we get it.  You don't like Aros because it may or may not run the 68k software in the mannor in which you wish.  Your opinion is noted.  Now, move along....
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: melott on February 19, 2004, 04:27:57 AM
@ DFergATL....

I'm not trolling, just stating the facts as I see them.
You can agree or not, your choice.

I will present an option to you though......

A Beginners 'C' group just started a couple weeks ago.
You and the others that feel so strongly about AROS should
join the group and learn to program. Then you can work on
AROS yourself.

Just send an empty EMail to this address to join

The group address......

    amiga_bcg-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


   
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: Darth_X on February 19, 2004, 05:10:09 AM
@Dammy

Who made your avatar? It looks cool!
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: dammy on February 19, 2004, 06:04:51 AM
by Darth_X on 2004/2/19 0:10:09

Quote
Who made your avatar? It looks cool!


Why Meers of course. He did a hell of a good job on it. =)

Dammy
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 19, 2004, 06:06:55 AM
Ok, guy.  So, we agree on some points.  Dissagree on others, and so the world continues to turn.  I have been following the AROS devlopment for some time.  At one point they decided that UAE was going to have to do.  Recently there has been some discussion on the subject of intrigrating 68k into Aros.  All agree that it would be very, very hard but might not be as impossiable as once thought.  I still think it would be cool,very cool to do it.  I just don't see it the most important thing for Aros to do at this time.  There is a bounty for it on Team Aros, if you still belive that they can do it maybe a few bucks tossed that way would help.  I have also put some money on it even though I don't have any 68k software anymore to run with it.  As for the C class I thought about it but my job takes up well over 50 hours a week and there is more coming and I just would not be able to commit to it.  I am sort of studing C# on my own.  Not that it helps or that anyone cares but I am finding it interesting.  I feel for the people currently working on Aros. There are all these expectations and so few of them working on it.  My only goal for even starting this thread was to see if anyone had any ideas on how we might get some more people working on it.  But in conclusion to this thread I have learned one very important thing.  Keep my thoughts to myself.  bye ya'll
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: bloodline on February 19, 2004, 09:41:56 AM
Quote

melott wrote:
I beleave the origonal intent of AROS was to be 68k
compatable. As the Classic Amiga machines died off people
would just take their software over to AROS on the x86.
Otherwise why was the Kickstart rom ported over?
I beleave the AROS team decided at some point to change
directions for a universal OS and forget the 68k.
For many months there appears to be no real interest
in the 68k. So as far as I'm concerned and I suspect a
great many others ( Classic Amigans ) AROS is a non-issue.
We keep our Classics alive and as for me, I'll buy a
'Cold Fusion' accellerator when/if they come out.
The only option on the horizon for a fast 'Classic'.

You want to know why no one wants to develope for AROS.
All the facts are there ( cold and hartless ) just look.

I'm sorry, I had high hopes for AROS too, but they are
more or less dead.
I commend the AROS Team for their accomplishments, but
in the end I think ....'Whats the point??'

( its only my opinion )



You views are slightly skewed, one point was that AROS has always been intened to be portable.

It's also important to remember that AROS is yours. In fact it's everybodies! you may use it as you wish. You even have the source code and you may use that source code any run it on any hardware you want.  With AROS you are not at the mercy of a single company, you get to see any security flaws, you may add functionality and/or customise it to suit your every need.

Another point I'd like to make is that we actually have 3 68k version of AROS! An Amiga-Native one which can seemlessly replace Amiga OS, a 68k-Linux one that runs hosted on Linux and a Palm version. It is true though that these version have not been developed as far as the x86 version, but that is due to the easy availablity of x86 hardware and the power of such hardware makes compiling much quicker.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: T_Bone on February 19, 2004, 09:53:34 AM
Quote

DFergATL wrote:
 But in conclusion to this thread I have learned one very important thing.  Keep my thoughts to myself.  bye ya'll

 :-?
Why keep them to yourself???
Nothing wrong with discussion.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: bloodline on February 19, 2004, 10:01:21 AM
Quote
But in conclusion to this thread I have learned one very important thing. Keep my thoughts to myself. bye ya'll


To Reitterate T_Bone's point. You have raised issues that needed to be raised. For that we must thank you and encourage you to share your thoughts in future! :-)
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: melott on February 19, 2004, 03:31:22 PM
@ Bloodline

Actually, I think you have missed my point.
I was just tring to show why His pleas are falling on
'Deaf Ears'. AROS is in a 'Catch 22' situation of their
own making. 68k is the way to break the circle.
Most of the guys with the abilities he was calling for
to work on AROS already have their pet projects.

Aros running on an Amiga is not the same as Amiga running
on AROS.

Yes, I understand AROS is open source.
I beleave you know about the 'C' group I started not long
ago. My reasons, simply put, are to bring 68k to AROS.
I know this is a massive undertaking for a person of my
very limited skills.
I may be totally full of crap and I'm sure I have no idea
what I'm getting into with this goal.
If you want something done 'do it yourself'.
Its a very very long road I've chosen, but if I don't start
now I'll never get there.
 
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: Glorix on February 19, 2004, 04:09:08 PM
@DFergATL
Well at least AROS have someone new on documenting (me), so you already achieved something!

As a suggestion: Maybe AROS could use another evangelist? AFAIK head-priest Bloodline is mainly active on this board, and there's a few other Amiga sites out there.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: DFergATL on February 19, 2004, 04:27:52 PM
I was very surprised to see that this thread had not fallen off the deep end when I came here today.  Ok, so I won't go away.  I guess what we really need is more money on the bounty.  Team Aros recently had a windfall when someone/copertion donated $1000 dollars to various bounties.  Wish we could get a few more of them.  Money, baby, we need money.
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: bloodline on February 19, 2004, 04:42:47 PM
Quote

melott wrote:
@ Bloodline

Actually, I think you have missed my point.
I was just tring to show why His pleas are falling on
'Deaf Ears'. AROS is in a 'Catch 22' situation of their
own making. 68k is the way to break the circle.
Most of the guys with the abilities he was calling for
to work on AROS already have their pet projects.

Aros running on an Amiga is not the same as Amiga running
on AROS.

Yes, I understand AROS is open source.
I beleave you know about the 'C' group I started not long
ago. My reasons, simply put, are to bring 68k to AROS.
I know this is a massive undertaking for a person of my
very limited skills.
I may be totally full of crap and I'm sure I have no idea
what I'm getting into with this goal.
If you want something done 'do it yourself'.
Its a very very long road I've chosen, but if I don't start
now I'll never get there.
 


Sorry if I missed the point :-)

I do agree that 68k is something that would be of great psychological advantage. But I do think that our "chosen" approach is the best for now.

I have an idea that would be nice to try, but I don't have enough knowledge about certain parts of AmigaOS to do :-/
Title: Re: Jumpstart AROS devlopment
Post by: melott on February 19, 2004, 05:34:17 PM
I just had another thought..not a new thought, but.....

Another thing that would probably help AROS is a 'Basic'
language. Something the 'Classic' masses can get into.

'SideWinder' is working on a new 'Basic' language simular
to 'AMOS' (if I understand correctly ), maybe his group
could be talked into porting it to AROS.