Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Gaming => Topic started by: orb85750 on September 15, 2011, 10:36:19 PM
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I'm not going to harp on this one, but I just want to know -- and maybe it's a stupid question: There are sellers on eBay providing tons of whdload (commercial) games on CF. Is this copyright infringement? I know that copyrights don't simply expire/become public domain -- at least not in 20-25 years. "Abandonware?" is that a legally recognized concept??
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No, they are not Legal. But the Copyright holders need to bring a case and many of them are absolved by larger companies now who are just not interested in a small time eBay seller.
Same for people selling pirate Kickstart Roms, Workbench Disks, etc...
What shocks me is people actually pay £40 for a CF Card they can get for £8 and a CF-IDE adapter they can get for 99p :lol:
Everything else they can download from one site in A-Z packs...
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Abandonware is real in so far that most of the companies dont care about their amiga titles or dont exist anymore.
A few like team17 just made adfs available.
It is not however a legal concept anywhere in the world i know of.
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May not be legal but in my view its keeping that software alive for people who still care to use it. The original software makers, many are long out of business, or moved on to pc/mac and don't care. If they did, I'm sure they would protect their titles more.
To people who really care about that old software, it is really nice and convienant to get like 2000+ games ready to go already installed. I got one myself and really enjoyed it. It was only slightly more expensive than a 4gb cf card by itself. I think it was a fair price for the time the seller took to format/copy the files.
Steven
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Well it is a bit fuzzy in some respects. Copyright only works IF YOU DEFEND IT. It's not illegal UNTIL you are challenged. So as long as you put the cash aside from each sale to pay the copyright when (and if) you get challenged your OK. Oh allright, I admit that is a totally immoral approach, sadly it's an approached that has been used many times in the past to great effect, often by big companies.
The trick when you get challenged of course is to say "I never intended to rob anyone, have your copyright fee." ....and then pay up.
It's not the same everywhere of course, America has far stricter laws than in the UK. I will give you an example. Bung, a Chinese manufacturer made the V64 Doctor back up unit for the N64 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIcsqA8Dco0 ). This device was illegal to sell in the US. The ruling was that video game carts could not be backed-up as they counted as hardware, the data on them was proprietary code (protected) that made the hardware do what it did. In the UK, the courts considered the carts to be software and backing up your software to protect your investment was (and is still) completely legal. These days of course you don't get to own anything as you only have the software under license, but that's another story again.
At the end of the day of course I'm with fitzsteve on this, it is a pricy way to buy a CF card.
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They are not legal if they do not have the Copyright owner's permission to distribute.
Remember: we are not talking about old games here, these sellers are preloading Hard Drives with a WHDLoad Key and re-selling it over many times. WHDLoad is an excellent piece of software that is regularly updated and the author does not deserve to have his work pirated. They are also reselling Workbench and AmigaOS files without permission.
These sellers are selling their CF hard disks at a price of nearly double the market price. The sellers in question are selling sufficient quantities to be considered a business by the tax authorities but are not registered as a business, not paying taxes and have little interest in providing after-sales support. We have had dozens of phone calls from their customers to us asking for help.
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I got one myself and really enjoyed it. It was only slightly more expensive than a 4gb cf card by itself.
AND - You probably left an electronic paper trial. Now you will always have to be looking over your shoulder for Bill and Fleecy...
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AND - You probably left an electronic paper trial. Now you will always have to be looking over your shoulder for Bill and Fleecy...
Dude, that's the stuff nightmares are made of.
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Dude, that's the stuff nightmares are made of.
At least you won't have to worry about the FBI - too busy trying figure out who hacked Scarlett Johansson's iPhone.
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Copyright only works IF YOU DEFEND IT. It's not illegal UNTIL you are challenged.
Nothing in this world is illegal until you are challenged.
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They are not legal if they do not have the Copyright owner's permission to distribute.
Remember: we are not talking about old games here, these sellers are preloading Hard Drives with a WHDLoad Key and re-selling it over many times. WHDLoad is an excellent piece of software that is regularly updated and the author does not deserve to have his work pirated. They are also reselling Workbench and AmigaOS files without permission.
These sellers are selling their CF hard disks at a price of nearly double the market price. The sellers in question are selling sufficient quantities to be considered a business by the tax authorities but are not registered as a business, not paying taxes and have little interest in providing after-sales support. We have had dozens of phone calls from their customers to us asking for help.
Interesting, I wonder if the author of WHDLoad has tried to contact eBay to prevent the unauthorized sale of his work. That should be very easy for him to do.
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Nothing in this world is illegal until you are challenged.
So you're saying that kidnapping and having sex with an 8 year old isn't illegal unless you're caught? Tell that to the judge.
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Many of the people who are selling these things include UNREGISTERED whdload.
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Well it is a bit fuzzy in some respects. Copyright only works IF YOU DEFEND IT. It's not illegal UNTIL you are challenged.
That may be true for patent disputes, but copyright infringement in the USA is clearly illegal. We have seen bootleggers of DVDs, etc. get heavy fines, or even imprisonment. It does not require a complaint/challenge from the movie studio. It's simply a crime to make unauthorized copies and sell them on the street, internet, or anywhere else.
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I'm not a legal bod but as I understand it in the UK at the moment, computer software copyright is similar to music copyright as opposed to book copyright which has a longer term to it.
If I understand correctly, music copyright lasts for 50 years from the date of the first publication/public performance and I'm pretty sure computer programs are the same.
At the moment, although it's not enforced and the government has said it needs to revise things, it's actually illegal to rip a copy of your own CD for your own personal use on an iPod etc. or as a backup. This carries through to software too and as such technically, it's illegal in the UK to use something like WHDLoad if you follow the letter of the law completely.
That being said, I don't think anyone is going to prosecute anyone for making a copy of your own original version for your own personal use and this is why the Government wants to revise the copyright laws because in a lot of ways in the UK, they're just too tight and un-enforcable.
So the answer to the question really is, it depends on the copyright laws where you are as to whether it's illegal today... or tomorrow. As far as I can tell, in the UK, Amiga games should be out of copyright sometime around 2035 onwards so it'll be just in time for my retirement :D
Paul
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I think there's quite a difference (legally speaking and otherwise)..... taking copyrighted material for your own use -versus- repeatedly selling it for profit like these leaches on eBay.
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games in WHD format? Meh, but there is absolutely no need to BUY them...
WHDLoad itself? Buy that puppy! Best 30 bucks I ever spent.
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What about these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/280-Amiga-Commodore-Games-PC-No-Emulation-Needed-/130574458974?pt=AU_PC_Video_Games_Games&hash=item1e66d8205e
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I'm not a legal bod but as I understand it in the UK at the moment, computer software copyright is similar to music copyright as opposed to book copyright which has a longer term to it.
If I understand correctly, music copyright lasts for 50 years from the date of the first publication/public performance and I'm pretty sure computer programs are the same.
At the moment, although it's not enforced and the government has said it needs to revise things, it's actually illegal to rip a copy of your own CD for your own personal use on an iPod etc. or as a backup. This carries through to software too and as such technically, it's illegal in the UK to use something like WHDLoad if you follow the letter of the law completely.
That being said, I don't think anyone is going to prosecute anyone for making a copy of your own original version for your own personal use and this is why the Government wants to revise the copyright laws because in a lot of ways in the UK, they're just too tight and un-enforcable.
So the answer to the question really is, it depends on the copyright laws where you are as to whether it's illegal today... or tomorrow. As far as I can tell, in the UK, Amiga games should be out of copyright sometime around 2035 onwards so it'll be just in time for my retirement :D
Paul
You are correct regarding the ripping of your own CDs being technically illegal in the UK, however, so far as I understand you are permitted to make a backup copy of computer software in the UK.
You are NOT allowed to use the original and the backup simultaneously, but may flip/flop between use of them.
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Call me strange but I like to install the games myself, no no to a preinstalled package :). I also have manually added every single game on a Wangipad list. I won't add games I don't like though...
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You are correct regarding the ripping of your own CDs being technically illegal in the UK, however, so far as I understand you are permitted to make a backup copy of computer software in the UK.
You are NOT allowed to use the original and the backup simultaneously, but may flip/flop between use of them.
I believe that the backup thing is only allowed where the copyright owner explicitly allows for you to have make a backup in their copyright declaration as part of the whole delegation of rights aspect of copyright law in the UK.
Where it isn't explicitly stated, you have to assume that backups aren't allowed.
Paul
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I believe that the backup thing is only allowed where the copyright owner explicitly allows for you to have make a backup in their copyright declaration as part of the whole delegation of rights aspect of copyright law in the UK.
Where it isn't explicitly stated, you have to assume that backups aren't allowed.
Paul
I'm afraid not. The backup of computer programmes is a statutory right. The copyright holder has no say.
It's a bit like the literary study part where you can quote excerts from books. Some books will state this is permissable, others not. That does not take away from the fact it is a statutory right and you can do it legally.
I suspect the backup of computer programmes was allowed due to the volatile nature of early storage media. Tapes and early floppies could become easily damaged. A rare piece of pragmatic UK law.
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So you're saying that kidnapping and having sex with an 8 year old isn't illegal unless you're caught? Tell that to the judge.
Well the fact is even that isn't illegal until you are challenged. Outraged? don't be. It's UNLAWFUL not illegal. The difference is that things that are unlawful are enacted upon the natural person (eg. John Doe), things that are illegal are enacted upon the legal identity (eg. Mr. John Doe). The legal identity does not exist until you are informed upon to the authorities and this is registered, this is the process that is recorded on your birth certificate. Your parents are the informants in most cases. The legal identity can be dissolved (in the UK this is a process known as "Lawful Rebellion" and is covered under section 61 of the Magna Carta). The natural person cannot be dissolved except by death.
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Nothing in this world is illegal until you are challenged.
True, but it may still be unlawful if it causes harm or loss.
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That may be true for patent disputes, but copyright infringement in the USA is clearly illegal. We have seen bootleggers of DVDs, etc. get heavy fines, or even imprisonment. It does not require a complaint/challenge from the movie studio. It's simply a crime to make unauthorized copies and sell them on the street, internet, or anywhere else.
Not quite as true as you may think. Most people submit to the authorities without even realising that they have done so. If a policeman describes the illegality of an act you have done to you (an illegal but NOT unlawful one that is) and then asks you if you "understand" by replying "yes" you have given your consent to be prosecuted. This comes from the terminology "to understand". In legalize it means "to stand under" or "to be bound by". By saying you understand, you (the legal identity that is, not the natural person), agrees to be bound.
Most prisoners are in prison as the legal identity attached to them has been prosecuted with their consent because they have done something illegal and then agreed to stand under the statute that makes it illegal. Of course, if they have caused harm or loss they may have been prosecuted for something unlawful. In this case the natural person is in prison instead.
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I believe that the backup thing is only allowed where the copyright owner explicitly allows for you to have make a backup in their copyright declaration as part of the whole delegation of rights aspect of copyright law in the UK.
Where it isn't explicitly stated, you have to assume that backups aren't allowed.
Paul
Sadly this is when it gets all complicated. If you own the software (as you will if you have an original disk in most cases) you can backup with no problem. If the software is under licence then what you have said is correct. Notice how much more software now states that the company who made it still owns it? In truth, you should read the licence for every piece of software you have to see if it is yours or if it is just data on loan from company xzy.
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Not quite as true as you may think. Most people submit to the authorities without even realising that they have done so. If a policeman describes the illegality of an act you have done to you (an illegal but NOT unlawful one that is) and then asks you if you "understand" by replying "yes" you have given your consent to be prosecuted. This comes from the terminology "to understand". In legalize it means "to stand under" or "to be bound by". By saying you understand, you (the legal identity that is, not the natural person), agrees to be bound.
Most prisoners are in prison as the legal identity attached to them has been prosecuted with their consent because they have done something illegal and then agreed to stand under the statute that makes it illegal. Of course, if they have caused harm or loss they may have been prosecuted for something unlawful. In this case the natural person is in prison instead.
Ummm.... Bootleggers are often raided here in the US -- no questions/answers!
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I refer to UK. Sadly for the US, you've been ripped off from your civil rights to the point of the ridiculous. You have many things that are illegal but the laws making them so are often unconstitutional.
I'm going to stop now before this becomes a conspiracy theory thread.
I will say this however, I'll never buy one of those whdload cf cards. An amigan has made a lot of effort writing whdload in the first place and deserves support for his effort, not being ripped off by someone repeatedly selling copies with the same key. All else is academic, no matter where you live.
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Yeah its one thing with 20 year old games from defunct companies but whdload is still being developed.
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Thanks, I didn't even know this stuff existed. Sold!
I bought my WhdLoad license ....
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the uk government is a waste of time... no one would bother listening to a word they say except they have bully boys.
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You are not able to buy most (if not all) of these games since they are no longer available. You can always try your chance to get them from ebay by paying up to 1000$ (!).
Even the copyright owners or the programmers themselves usually don't have their own games. Some of those copyright owners are not aware that they hold the copyright to xxx Amiga game. :)
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same old same old... just wait 50 years it'll be legal!
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Did they arrest any Amiga user for downloading and playing the WHDLOAD version of Superfrog?
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To each his own, but I personally think anyone making money off someone elses work is scum.
Piracy is one thing, but making money off other peoples work is the act of a low life.
As for the arguement that a lot of this stuff is no longer produced, ergo ok to steal and resell,.... man, Id love an indivision aga,... who has one I can steal? It's ok 'cos theyre not made anymore :P Maybe a few a4k's and sx32 pros would be nice as well,... heck theyve not been produced for 15 years,.... its gotta be ok. I could probably make a pretty penny for my troubles too :)
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These sellers are selling their CF hard disks at a price of nearly double the market price.
Erm... That's a bit rich coming from you my friend.
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So you're saying that kidnapping and having sex with an 8 year old isn't illegal unless you're caught? Tell that to the judge.
If a judge is involved then it's probably safe to assume that they've been caught.
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These sellers are selling their CF hard disks at a price of nearly double the market price.
look who's talking..
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sad part of this story is the actual science for this is that there isnt a computer or console in the world that doesnt have some kind of pirated software onit ,not 1.
and the other facts are most companys that trade or have traded in amiga gear have all sold illegal software thats a fact.
and also what cheeses me off is there worried about donks selling crap sftware cheap , im worried about the crap software that is allowed to be written by companys and installed on my pc without my knowledge ie
yeildmanager and the likes now when is the goverments going to make this an offence ,and tracking cookies made by comanys to spy on what we are buying and doing on the net .
they wont because the goverments are allowed to be pirates and steal my stuff and be nosy.
so i say fair game challenge my findings and ill prove im right.
take me to court and ill stitch you the goverment and all the software makers .
keep off my land. being my pc thanks.