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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #89 from previous page: December 19, 2013, 08:36:09 PM »
Quote from: Andre.Siegel;754711
If enough people bought the product to justify the release of a newer model, perhaps it was not so absurd afterall.


Depends on the perspective and POV I suppose; if you like Trevor are satisfied with sales in the range of 200-300 units in the products entire life span, then I guess you're right. If you on the other hand expected it to be an evolution of the platform, a stepping stone towards re-establishing the "Amiga" as something more than a very tiny and constantly diminishing group of people that are counted in the hundreds in total (and split in several fractions on top of that), then I think it's very absurd. Trevor took on the role of providing a HW future for the platform, and his answer to the problem was the X1000. And it has meant nothing at all to the platforms evolution. It probably scared more people away from the platform than a complete absence of new HW would, because then there can at least be hope and dreams of a future, but when this was touted to be the next step in the platforms evolution it effectively crushed all hope of a realistic, sustainable future in many peoples minds, I'm sure of that. We are talking about a 2005 performance level computer that essentially is more expensive than Apple's latest power horse (with rather extreme specs, that also has the substantial Apple brand tax included), it was from the beginning designed on a dead-end CPU and it has specs that nobody (not even Trevor) knows the purpose of. How is this not absurd?

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Either the initial investment was completely recouped or the investors did not mind spending money on a project that they enjoy. If someone is so successful in his or her primary career that he or she could run a non-profitable computer hardware business "just for fun", who are we to tell this person to not do it?


Trevor could commission Varisys to design a red/white ball-shaped PCB with pink propellers in titan all over it and other pointless features, performance from the last decade and sell it for $5000 to boing-ball loyals (who would definitely buy it, at least a hundred or so, as long as it's "the real", drivers be damned), it's a free world. But it would be very absurd, as would it be if these things wouldn't be allowed for discussion, when it's a matter of the direction of the platform evolution. Sure, you may be of the opinion that insanely priced PPC HW with unneeded features is the way forward for the platform, and of course you can advocate that all over the Internet. But I'm of a different opinion, and I reserve the rights to express my opinions as well.

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I find your entire argumentation to be deeply inconsistent. A few posts back you accused A-Eon of being too incompetent on the management level to ask more than one design house for price quotes, and now you accuse them of not treating it like a hobby and finding people willing to slave away for nothing so they can have a product to sell...


What, people with skills doing their own product development work in-house, instead of paying other companies to do it for them, automatically equals to "hobby" or "slavery" now? This is how it's done in small firms in every industry, everywhere!

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You completely underestimate the complexities of the hardware business.


No I don't think so, i'm actually quite certain it's indeed extremely complex, but that wasn't even the point.

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If someone finds a severe bug in the X1000 board design that causes data loss, Varisys are fully liable and they are big enough that A-Eon would have a good chance of receiving funds from them. If you have somebody design something for free, then you are fully liable for any issues with the design. If your hobby hardware designer made a mistake, "free" can turn into "extremely costly".


Take an insurance policy like everyone else, if you are worried about these things...?

Other than that, from a consumer perspective, I think Genesi/bPlan (who had their HW competence in-house) managed the Articia-S catastrophe *a lot* better than Eyetech did (who didn't have any in-house HW competence, and chose to buy everything (like development and manufacturing) from external entities).

The difference was significant.

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Personally, I would feel very uneasy to pay a six figure sum for a production run of a hardware design that was done by some guy on a shoestring budget. When you are selling custom computer hardware, the designing phase is absolutely crucial and should receive sufficient attention and resources. (Even very experienced engineers can run into expensive hardware problems as the Articia S fiasco showed.)


As the Articia-S thing showed, a HW development company that actually have competence in HW development, isn't perhaps all that bad? Maybe even preferable, yes?

And again, this is the only way of developing R&D heavy products for a practically non-existent micro markets. I'm not talking about hobby or slavery. But paying $1,200,000 for developing a product for a few hundred potential customers can only end one way.

---

Look, of course anyone is free to waste his money in any way he/she likes (as long as it's legal and preferrably ethical), but here we are talking about someone who (in the absence of official platform dvelopment/management) has taken on the role of managing the future evolution of the platform, at least HW wise. This concerns everyone that has any kind of emotional attachment to the platform, and everyone should be allowed to speak their views on this.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2013, 08:47:45 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;754716
What TMHG propably means it is simply crazy to build custom hardware based on PPC in 2013.


You are absolutely right.

I don't have any objections to PPC per se, it's not like I'm against it for the sake of it. But if you can't produce a realistic product based on it (affordable to regular people without the need to sell your first born child and your left kidney, *and* performance/capabilities that at least is worthy the current decade), then there is no point, and other options should be considered. IMHO of course.

:)
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Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2013, 12:11:26 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754740
You are absolutely right.

I don't have any objections to PPC per se, it's not like I'm against it for the sake of it. But if you can't produce a realistic product based on it (affordable to regular people without the need to sell your first born child and your left kidney, *and* performance/capabilities that at least is worthy the current decade), then there is no point, and other options should be considered. IMHO of course.

:)

And when were Amiga users ever realistic?

You ought to be satisfied that the MorphOS team has announced an eventual shift to a 64bit platform on either X64 or ARM.
But the PPC version is not going away, and we really do not need a repetition of this every time a new announcement is made.

Get used to it.
These are not our decisions.
And I, for one, would buy the new machine if funds allowed.

And as to performance, the G5 does not have enough for you?
To me it seems like over kill.

Edit - On realistic - How realistic was it when the MorphOS developers got together with this thought "Hey, let's re-create the entire operating system, but base it on PPC instructions with just in time interpretation to run 68K program. And we can add new features and support for things like OpenGL"

Sounds pretty crazy to me.
Like it?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 12:15:37 AM by Iggy »
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Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2013, 03:04:36 AM »
The high cost and slow development keeps it a hobby. Having cheap hardware and slow development, you've got potential.

Also if you want something cheaper, the FPGA arcade suits me better. How about OS 4.1 in 68k?
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Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2013, 03:11:10 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;754766
The high cost and slow development keeps it a hobby. Having cheap hardware and slow development, you've got potential.

Also if you want something cheaper, the FPGA arcade suits me better. How about OS 4.1 in 68k?


How about AROS68K on a 200 to 266 MHz V4 Coldfire?
That would be really cheap.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline bloodline

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2013, 03:25:57 AM »
It has got to the point now, that it actually makes more sense investing in the FPGA Amiga clones, and trying to develop a faster 68k FPGA core than it does wasting money on any future PPC system.

Neither the 68k or the PPC have a real future... But at least with an FPGA 68k core we can ensure future development and progressively better performance as FPGAs get better (and the community is able to advance the core design), and obviously the 68k has more interesting software :)

Offline Methanoid

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2013, 07:39:34 AM »
I guess we dont have mods here to keep things on topic? Also to stop situations where posters SIGS are longer than their posts - no names ;-)

Interesting discussion - maybe. Related to thread title? Not really.   Now I know why I come here less and less... :-(
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2013, 09:27:36 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;754745
And I, for one, would buy the new machine if funds allowed.


I really think you should stop and meditate a bit over the full meaning and all the implications of what you just wrote! ;)

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And as to performance, the G5 does not have enough for you?
To me it seems like over kill.


Not really, no. And the G5 is hot, bulky and noisy, and not something I would bet on for the future. I can't see myself buying a G5 under any circumstances.

As a side note - the current ARM chips and those just around the corner, is on par or surpasses the G5 (the G4 was surpassed by the previous generations). And those are cool running, low watt chips that certainly *does not* cost $600-$1000 a piece. And then of course we have the x86, that is in entire different dimension.

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Edit - On realistic - How realistic was it when the MorphOS developers got together with this thought "Hey, let's re-create the entire operating system, but base it on PPC instructions with just in time interpretation to run 68K program. And we can add new features and support for things like OpenGL"

Sounds pretty crazy to me.
Like it?


Yes I like it. But had the MorphOS team, instead of developing it themselves, just drawn up the specs and then hired an OS developing firm (like Microsoft, Apple, QNX, Debian or whoever) and paid monthly invoices from them to support their developers, over head costs and profit margins etc, from 1999 until today, how much do you think a single copy of MorphOS would have costed (the entire cost split on 2100 users)?

*That* sounds pretty crazy to me.
Would you have liked it?

And even if every single member of the Amiga community would have reasoned just like you did above - "And I, for one, would buy the new machine if funds allowed" - do you think the MorphOS user base would have been very large? Would it have been a winning strategy for growing the platform, to attract new users and developers?

There you have some food for thought!

;)
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Offline spirantho

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2013, 09:35:22 AM »
This always happens, though, whenever AmigaOS 4, Hyperion or A-Eon is mentioned.

It's almost as if people *want* to go back to the days of the Great Drought when there was no hardware. Now we have so much hardware (AOS4 has the bespoke systems like the very-reasonably-priced Sam440ep (yes - it is useful, I use mine a lot) and the Rolls Royce system of the X1000, with more new hardware coming soon, MOS has new G5 support added and improved all the time, AROS has plenty of hardware :) )... we've never had it so good.

We're absolutely spoiled, really. We've got people like Trevor who must definitely SHOULD be applauded for seeing their projects through to the end, despite personal cost, just so that OS4 users can have really posh new hardware and a platform to build multi-processing on. We've got MorphOS devs continually updating and enhancing their OS to work on the most powerful system available to them. We've got AROS not only being developed on x86 but also 68K and ARM!

We have it SO good at the moment.

And yet still we hear about how people are "Crazy" and how it's "madness", and people "should" do this and "should" do that and "shouldn't" do the other.

Like them or loathe them, people like Trevor, the MorphOS team, Hyperion, AmigaKit, Acube, the multitude of AROS devs... they keep us going out of their love for the system. They're not getting rich - none of them. They give us the opportunity to keep enjoying our hobby - whatever flavour of "Amiga" it is - and for this they should ALL be applauded.

We are not the ones to tell Trevor or Acube or AEon or anyone else how to run their business, not even out of any emotional attachment to the platform. The Amiga 68K as a platform died a long time ago - but that doesn't stop the old machines working and being enjoyable - but it did stop the advancement of AmigaOS 3.x. If you don't like the path that AmigaOS 4 has taken, just ignore it - because if it hadn't taken this path, it wouldn't exist at all. Its existence is not stopping A1200s from working, and nor does it stop G5 Macs from running MorphOS.

We have it so good, we really do.

Now because it's Chrimbo I'm going to end by saying Happy Non-Denominational Holiday Greetings to all Amigans everywhere, whatever their colour (red or blue or... AROS :) ) or creed.

Rant/Preaching over. :)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2013, 09:39:13 AM »
Quote from: Methanoid;754783
I guess we dont have mods here to keep things on topic? Interesting discussion - maybe. Related to thread title? Not really.


What, discussions about A-eon and its HW and strategies for the future of the Amiga platform would be off topic in a thread about the current HW companies strategies on future Amiga?! :lol:

OK, then you go ahead and make a couple of "on topic" posts here to put the thread back on the right track again...

:)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2013, 09:59:15 AM »
Quote from: spirantho;754786
We are not the ones to tell Trevor or Acube or AEon or anyone else how to run their business, not even out of any emotional attachment to the platform.

What an absolute nonsense! "Their" business is concerning/affecting the whole platform, and with that, everyone who is interested in it. The thought that everyone should be obliged to only applaud and cheer about what they do to the platform is ridiculous. It would be like north koreans forced to parade to salute their beloved leaders in public, and then go home to their huts without heating and wondering if they should serve their children hot or cold water as dinner as a result of their beloved leaders policies.
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Offline spirantho

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2013, 10:07:41 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754788
What an absolute nonsense! "Their" business is concerning/affecting the whole platform, and with that, everyone who is interested in it.



How does their business affect MorphOS or 68K Amiga?
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Offline Iggy

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2013, 03:49:32 PM »
Quote from: Methanoid;754783
I guess we dont have mods here to keep things on topic? Also to stop situations where posters SIGS are longer than their posts - no names ;-)

Interesting discussion - maybe. Related to thread title? Not really.   Now I know why I come here less and less... :-(

We seem to be very much on topic as the topic is about our two sources of PPC motherboards and a few posters are questioning the merits of such boards.

@takemehomegrandma

I can not include all that you wrote - but are we attracting new users?

Well, I didn't use an Amiga when it was still supported, and I'm a relatively new user (I picked up MorphOS when PowerMac support was started).
So...YES.

Also, I have both G4 and G5 Pmacs.
The MDD is considerably noisier than the G5.

@bloodline

We already know you prefer ARM, but since you are not involved in my OS of choice, that is irrelevant.
Hopefully when MorphoS mutates into 64 bit it will be on ARM.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2013, 10:27:00 AM »
Quote from: spirantho;754789
How does their business affect MorphOS or 68K Amiga?


I believe the X1000 punctured the hopes some people might have had about a growing or sustainable future for the OS4 platform, with more users and more developers coming in. The X1000 communicated that there is no hope of this anymore, it was simply an impossible machine to build any kind of future on. Some people have been finding a new home in MorphOS (lots of new MorphOS users has been spotted on MorphZone and other Amiga related web sites the last year(s)) which of course is good, but a great deal silently left altogether instead, which is bad. Even if the "Amiga NG" community is kind of divided into three factions (plus a "68k retro"), I don't think it's as divided as you try to make it sound, that each faction would be isolated from the others. Most MorphOS users are Amigans since long, and care for the entire platform. And a diminishing OS4 faction will mean that the total possible consumers of cross-ported Amiga SW decreases, affecting those developers who is kind enough to care for all factions when they develop/port their SW, like Airsoftsoftwair/Hollywood, effectively meaning that it gets less and less attractive to develop for Amiga as a whole. I'm also thinking of bigger projects that would really benefit of being cross-faction within this tiny "NG" community, like web browsers, office suits, Dopus Magellan, etc. IMHO it would probably have been easier to raise the Odyssey bounty three years ago (had Odyssey been equally mature back then as it is today of course) and you could probably have raised more money as well. In three years from now, it will be even more difficult than it is today. A decreasing total size of "Amiga NG" can never be good. And this is what A-eon (together with Hyperion's no-sign-of-life development pace) does, IMHO.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2013, 10:38:36 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;754797
are we attracting new users?

Well, I didn't use an Amiga when it was still supported, and I'm a relatively new user (I picked up MorphOS when PowerMac support was started).
So...YES.


You just told us how *the MorphOS strategy* attracted you as a new user, and *not* how A-eon's X1000 did it (in fact, earlier you said that the X1000 is out of your reach, which is probably true to 99% of us). The meaning of this is that MorphOS/Mac HW did it right, the X1000/OS4 did it wrong. And this is what I have been saying all along. Maybe we should collectively open our eyes, look around, and *learn* something from what we have seen during the last four years, draw some conclusions and change strategies as necessary?

:)
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Offline Rob

Re: ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2013, 11:55:20 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;754974
I believe the X1000 punctured the hopes some people might have had about a growing or sustainable future for the OS4 platform, with more users and more developers coming in. The X1000 communicated that there is no hope of this anymore, it was simply an impossible machine to build any kind of future on. Some people have been finding a new home in MorphOS (lots of new MorphOS users has been spotted on MorphZone and other Amiga related web sites the last year(s)) which of course is good, but a great deal silently left altogether instead, which is bad. Even if the "Amiga NG" community is kind of divided into three factions (plus a "68k retro"), I don't think it's as divided as you try to make it sound, that each faction would be isolated from the others. Most MorphOS users are Amigans since long, and care for the entire platform. And a diminishing OS4 faction will mean that the total possible consumers of cross-ported Amiga SW decreases, affecting those developers who is kind enough to care for all factions when they develop/port their SW, like Airsoftsoftwair/Hollywood, effectively meaning that it gets less and less attractive to develop for Amiga as a whole. I'm also thinking of bigger projects that would really benefit of being cross-faction within this tiny "NG" community, like web browsers, office suits, Dopus Magellan, etc. IMHO it would probably have been easier to raise the Odyssey bounty three years ago (had Odyssey been equally mature back then as it is today of course) and you could probably have raised more money as well. In three years from now, it will be even more difficult than it is today. A decreasing total size of "Amiga NG" can never be good. And this is what A-eon (together with Hyperion's no-sign-of-life development pace) does, IMHO.


In the last few years I've seen quite a few people buy OS4 systems including the X1000 who had either never owned an Amiga before, had been away from the scene for a long time or had simply been holding off for some time.  That's just the people who choose to announce.

I think that the Odyssey bounty would have happened a lot quicker if there hadn't already been the Timberwolf bounty.  I guess a lot of people who donated to that maybe don't want to pay again for another browser and are hoping for something better from now with talk of Steve Solie taking over the project and getting more people involved.