ACube and A-EON announce One Vision on future Amiga co-operation

[Rob]

I believe the X1000 punctured the hopes some people might have had about a growing or sustainable future for the OS4 platform, with more users and more developers coming in. The X1000 communicated that there is no hope of this anymore, it was simply an impossible machine to build any kind of future on. Some people have been finding a new home in MorphOS (lots of new MorphOS users has been spotted on MorphZone and other Amiga related web sites the last year(s)) which of course is good, but a great deal silently left altogether instead, which is bad. Even if the "Amiga NG" community is kind of divided into three factions (plus a "68k retro"), I don't think it's as divided as you try to make it sound, that each faction would be isolated from the others. Most MorphOS users are Amigans since long, and care for the entire platform. And a diminishing OS4 faction will mean that the total possible consumers of cross-ported Amiga SW decreases, affecting those developers who is kind enough to care for all factions when they develop/port their SW, like Airsoftsoftwair/Hollywood, effectively meaning that it gets less and less attractive to develop for Amiga as a whole. I'm also thinking of bigger projects that would really benefit of being cross-faction within this tiny "NG" community, like web browsers, office suits, Dopus Magellan, etc. IMHO it would probably have been easier to raise the Odyssey bounty three years ago (had Odyssey been equally mature back then as it is today of course) and you could probably have raised more money as well. In three years from now, it will be even more difficult than it is today. A decreasing total size of "Amiga NG" can never be good. And this is what A-eon (together with Hyperion's no-sign-of-life development pace) does, IMHO.

In the last few years I've seen quite a few people buy OS4 systems including the X1000 who had either never owned an Amiga before, had been away from the scene for a long time or had simply been holding off for some time.  That's just the people who choose to announce.

I think that the Odyssey bounty would have happened a lot quicker if there hadn't already been the Timberwolf bounty.  I guess a lot of people who donated to that maybe don't want to pay again for another browser and are hoping for something better from now with talk of Steve Solie taking over the project and getting more people involved.

[yssing]

Ofcourse there is a future in PPC based motherboards.

[takemehomegrandma]

In the last few years I've seen quite a few people buy OS4 systems including the X1000 who had either never owned an Amiga before, had been away from the scene for a long time or had simply been holding off for some time.  That's just the people who choose to announce.

Yeah I know there are a few people who was new to both the X1000 and OS4 when they bought one, like AmigaDave, AmigaNG, clusteruk, darkon_turas, gerograph, Haranguer, ggw, klx300r, musa, otakui, sam, Tuxxl, VingtTrois, Zenzizenzizenzic. Probably a few more, right (feel free to add the others you know about)?

And then of course we have VOX, who (according to his friend djnick) paid €3600/$4850 (which equals to 10 months full time salary in Serbia (almost a full year's worth of payment(!))) for his X1000, and to manage the purchase he put himself in debt until 2018 (which is still kind of an aggressive payment plan for 10 months of full time salary IMHO, when you still have a life to live with all those day-to-day expenses like food and rent and the usual bills), and then he got banned from Hyperion's support for asking too many questions about the X1000 driver situation, he seems to be banned from all other sites as well, but on moobunny he talks about class action lawsuits now.

And even if you manage to double the list above, we are still counting in the range of tens of people. That's virtually nothing. And it still isn't a sign of platform growth at all, you would have to count those who left as well! And you don't have to do any counting at all to understand how HW this expensive (with that performance) can't create any real platform growth whatsoever, it's just a matter of common sense.

[Iggy]

Ofcourse there is a future in PPC based motherboards.

Obviously, they are planning new one.
So the future is assured.
And I'll probably buy one.

[takemehomegrandma]

And I'll probably buy one.

Soon you would *have to* in order to save your face - put your money where your mouth is!

:lol:

[amigakit]

@takemehomegrandma

in the range of tens of people

In reality, there are hundreds of new X1000 users, I am sure you do not think three consumer production batches constitute a few dozen boards?

The AmigaOne X1000 is still current, still on sale and has kept us very busy the last 18 months with assembly.

[Rob]

Yeah I know there are a few people who was new to both the X1000 and OS4 when they bought one, like AmigaDave, AmigaNG, clusteruk, darkon_turas, gerograph, Haranguer, ggw, klx300r, musa, otakui, sam, Tuxxl, VingtTrois, Zenzizenzizenzic. Probably a few more, right (feel free to add the others you know about)?

And then of course we have VOX, who (according to his friend djnick) paid €3600/$4850 (which equals to 10 months full time salary in Serbia (almost a full year's worth of payment(!))) for his X1000, and to manage the purchase he put himself in debt until 2018 (which is still kind of an aggressive payment plan for 10 months of full time salary IMHO, when you still have a life to live with all those day-to-day expenses like food and rent and the usual bills), and then he got banned from Hyperion's support for asking too many questions about the X1000 driver situation, he seems to be banned from all other sites as well, but on moobunny he talks about class action lawsuits now.

And even if you manage to double the list above, we are still counting in the range of tens of people. That's virtually nothing. And it still isn't a sign of platform growth at all, you would have to count those who left as well! And you don't have to do any counting at all to understand how HW this expensive (with that performance) can't create any real platform growth whatsoever, it's just a matter of common sense.

I think personally think Vox was crazy to get into such a debt to get an X1000.  I don't think Vox was banned for simply asking questions but the manner in which he was making complaints.  Whether it was right or wrong to ban him I will not be the judge of but regarding complaints, he was aware of the pace of OS4 development and like someone else said, he can't expect the pace to suddenly increase just because he spent a small fortune to get one.

Counting people who have a system is irrelevant since many people simply don't make it known.

As for growth I guess it is a case of wait and see what happens.  There were people that were saying that X1000 wouldn't make it out of the door, that it only ship with Linux and Trevor would cut and run etc etc but by all account it has sold very well considering the seemingly small market and high price.  Acube are still around too and the Sam460 is there third product aimed at OS4.  All this is years after Bill Buck said that the Amiga PPC market was saturated.

I think there is still a lot to be positive about in the Amiga scene whether 68k or NG with plenty going on.  It's just some people prefer to focus on the negative.

[Rob]

@takemehomegrandma


In reality, there are hundreds of new X1000 users, I am sure you do not think three consumer production batches constitute a few dozen boards?

The AmigaOne X1000 is still current, still on sale and has kept us very busy the last 18 months with assembly.

I can confirm that on the 4 or 5 times I have visited AmigaKit since X1000 production began that there has always been a number of X1000 systems being built and others ready to ship.  It's certainly been keeping Chris busy with all the system builds.  I guess there is a reason why other dealers now have the X1000 on sale.

[Ral-Clan]

What's refreshing about Trevor Dickinson is that he's a CEO who seems to have integrity, follows through on what he promises, doesn't promise what he can't deliver, and is pursuing Amiga development based on a personal passion rather than a drive to make a lot of money.

Isn't this what we were all begging for during the Bill McEwen years?

[Iggy]

What's refreshing about Trevor Dickinson is that he's a CEO who seems to have integrity, follows through on what he promises, doesn't promise what he can't deliver, and is pursuing Amiga development based on a personal passion rather than a drive to make a lot of money.

Isn't this what we were all begging for during the Bill McEwen years?

You can count on Amigans to complain whether they get what they want or not.

OK, TMHGM, I WILL purchase an X2000 (or whatever it is called).
Where do I sign?

[Rob]

You can count on Amigans to complain whether they get what they want or not.

OK, TMHGM, I WILL purchase an X2000 (or whatever it is called).
Where do I sign?

Maybe if you contact Trevor you can get on the list for the beta program if it isn't already oversubscribed.

[takemehomegrandma]

In reality, there are hundreds of new X1000 users, I am sure you do not think three consumer production batches constitute a few dozen boards?

Of course not, but if you pay attention and follow the discussion in this thread to which you responded, the point was what the X1000 did to *grow the platform*, meaning attracting people *from outside* the Amiga community, or at least outside the OS4 community. In this context, people already using OS4 doesn't count. And in this context, the question is also how many *left* because of the fact that the "Amiga future" was positioned way out of their reach, and they felt that there is no hope of a future (or that the risk is way too high) when the future builds on $3,000+ machines with ancient (in computer evolution terms) performance? Surely not even you can think that this *hasn't* taken its toll?

OK, TMHGM, I WILL purchase an X2000 (or whatever it is called).
Where do I sign?

That would surely put more weight to your words in this thread. After all, first you are advocating a future for the platform based on $3,000+ machines, and then you tell us that what you *actually purchased* was a Power Mac with MorphOS that you bought for $19.95 (which was a good catch BTW, even if the previous owner thought it was broken).

I mean, either you put your money where your mouth is and chip up those $3,000 to support Your/Aeon's/Hyperion's vision, *OR* you do like the rest of us; put your mouth where your money is and hope that those in charge changes their minds and goes for a different kind of future instead.

You don't have to wait for the "X2000" (or A3000 or A5000 or whatever they will call it) in order to prove your point either, the X1000 is available and it's *on sale* now, and it features a unique CPU that surely will interest a CPU guy like you, that was "was the best choice" (your words) for a Amiga NG machine. So you can support Trevor, Hyperion and their ideas of a future *now* already, just go here and get it!

[Iggy]

No, I considered the X1000, but it is not the machine Paul Gentle wanted to build.
When the MorphOS community was still exploring the MPC8610 and I was looking at the MPC8640/8641, Paul suggest to me that the Qorlq line would be a better basis for a board.
And that is what this new board is based on.
If I really wanted to "put my money where my mouth is", I'd discontinue my 68040 and Coldfire projects and focus on the Qorlq line.
Specifically the soon to be released 1.4 GHz dual and quad core T1022 and T1042.
They could probably be brought to market at about Acube's price range with better performance (they use the same e5500 core that the processors Trevor is going to use do - but only at about 2/3 the clock speed and with fewer PCI-E lanes).

So, just in case you didn't know, PPC is not entirely dead (nor is it "restin after a long swauk").

But I do, and always have, concede this point to you, ARM makes better economic sense.

So hopefully MorphOS will split, 64 bit adopting the ARM or X64 ISA, and the 32 bit version still focusing on legacy compatibility on PPC devices.

[bloodline]

So, just in case you didn't know, PPC is not entirely dead (nor is it "restin after a long swauk").

Not discounting the fact you like the PPC ISA, though I'm not sure what makes it attractive to you, I'm keen to know how you draw the conclusion that te PPC isn't dead? No new designs use it. No major manufacturer supports it for mainstream usage and there are no road maps for the future.  I can't even find any opensource FPGA implementations

[Iggy]

Not discounting the fact you like the PPC ISA, though I'm not sure what makes it attractive to you, I'm keen to know how you draw the conclusion that te PPC isn't dead? No new designs use it. No major manufacturer supports it for mainstream usage and there are no road maps for the future.  I can't even find any opensource FPGA implementations

There are other companies developing PPC, but the company to pay attention to is the source of the line I mentioned (Qorlq), Freescale.
And, yes, they have published timelines for all recent cores.
As to major manufacturers, no business or home computer manufacturer uses these anymore, thus the shift to communications applications.
But they can be used for computer applications.
In fact the 24 thread e6500 cored products look ideal for server applications.

What do I see in the PPC, well its already 64bit.
Its available at speeds in excess of those that ARM operates at.
We already have two OS' coded for it.
Unlike ARM, I can get processors with built-in PCI and PCI-E support.

LIKE ARM, its RISC.
LIKE ARM, its not X64/Intel IP.

Lots of reasons.

While you are slowly coaxing me toward a more tolerant attitude toward Linux, I still prefer more compact OS'.

And micro kernel, so...PPCs and MorphOS.
Anything else you want explained?

A change in ISAs would/will take years.

Its going to happen (its not a maybe).

But right now, I have a solution I like available to me immediately.

[Rob]

Of course not, but if you pay attention and follow the discussion in this thread to which you responded, the point was what the X1000 did to *grow the platform*, meaning attracting people *from outside* the Amiga community, or at least outside the OS4 community. In this context, people already using OS4 doesn't count. And in this context, the question is also how many *left* because of the fact that the "Amiga future" was positioned way out of their reach, and they felt that there is no hope of a future (or that the risk is way too high) when the future builds on $3,000+ machines with ancient (in computer evolution terms) performance? Surely not even you can think that this *hasn't* taken its toll?

After I bought my X1000 somebody got a complete AmigaONE XE G4 1GHz system with 1GB ram 2 video cards, 320GB HD and a DVD rewriter for just over£400 IIRC.  Does the guy who bought it count as a new user?

Remember while some people might horde their old systems others sell their old system putting cheaper hardware onto the market and thus growing the users base.