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AuthorTopic: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.  (Read 1631 times)

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Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2021, 06:24:51 AM »
do you have a suggestion for a good sd hard drive alternative?  the TF came with the CF but frankly I'm partial to SD because it's newer..  CF is getting old and I imagine more prone to wear out sooner at this point. 

Yea i like to think this one is cleaner than most i've seen.  not to say it's immaculate.. it's not..  i figure some deoxit and a toothbrush will do the various slots some good.. 

the 68000 cpu is removable I take it?  if I did put the TF in the cpu slot..   in theory if I ever got a original accelerator (after selling a kidney) and i had the TF in the cpu.. would the other card effectively bypass it? 

I'm still a bit disappointed about this card not allowing me to use scsi. but the IDE option makes it ok..  I just gave up on any SCSI hopes and video flyer...  but obviously seeing the insanely steep prices of A2000 accelerators it was the sane solution.  :)
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 03:45:41 PM »
So this is the one that AmigaKit came back saying I should get http://amigakit.amiga.store/adapter-cable-25cm-p-1289.html

So this looks about the same BUT it's actually shorter than the one I ordered.. and no power port..  would I damage something if i plugged one of my Molex connectors into that port on the ribbon?  Or would it provide helpful voltage to power the devices or might it zap something?
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2021, 05:20:15 PM »
Yes, the A2000, A1000 and A500 all have socketed chips (CPU, Agnus, Denise, Paula, Gary, CIA chips).

A2000 acclerators are a mixed bag. A few insist there is a real CPU in the 68000 socket to bypass. Others don't care and just work, bypassing a real chip and ignoring a missing one.

Don't worry too much about getting the compact flash card perfect first go. You can always replace the adapter, and some of them have power input connectors (usually a floppy drive power cable).

Only if a working CF card stopped working with a CD ROM attached, that's when a replacement might be a good idea. And you might jusr luck out and it all works anyway,
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2021, 06:28:41 PM »
So this is the one that AmigaKit came back saying I should get http://amigakit.amiga.store/adapter-cable-25cm-p-1289.html

So this looks about the same BUT it's actually shorter than the one I ordered.. and no power port..  would I damage something if i plugged one of my Molex connectors into that port on the ribbon?  Or would it provide helpful voltage to power the devices or might it zap something?
The original cable you linked had a connector to feed power to 2x 44-pin hard drives. Running it "backwards" as you'd need to would mean feeding power directly into the accelerator. Such a thing might be perfectly fine, but it also might be dangerous since the accelerator is designed to draw power only from the CPU socket (and therefore through the onboard regulator circuitry before reaching the 44-pin connector). It's safer - and a hell of a lot cheaper - to use AmigaKit's cable. You could try adding an extension or ask them to do you a custom one that's longer and it would still probably come out cheaper.

do you have a suggestion for a good sd hard drive alternative?  the TF came with the CF but frankly I'm partial to SD because it's newer..  CF is getting old and I imagine more prone to wear out sooner at this point.
I agree with Pat. If you have the CF setup in hand (and it works), there's no need to go to SD.

Quote
the 68000 cpu is removable I take it?  if I did put the TF in the cpu slot..   in theory if I ever got a original accelerator (after selling a kidney) and i had the TF in the cpu.. would the other card effectively bypass it?
Yes, the 68000 is socketed. If you later got an accelerator-slot accelerator you'd most likely need to remove the TF and replace the original 68000. The alternative is something like this, like what Pat linked. Instead of removing the 68000 from the motherboard you just mount the TF on one of these and (carefully!) put the whole contraption into the accelerator slot.

Quote
I'm still a bit disappointed about this card not allowing me to use scsi. but the IDE option makes it ok..  I just gave up on any SCSI hopes and video flyer...  but obviously seeing the insanely steep prices of A2000 accelerators it was the sane solution.  :)
You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2021, 06:45:52 PM »
The original cable you linked had a connector to feed power to 2x 44-pin hard drives. Running it "backwards" as you'd need to would mean feeding power directly into the accelerator. Such a thing might be perfectly fine, but it also might be dangerous since the accelerator is designed to draw power only from the CPU socket (and therefore through the onboard regulator circuitry before reaching the 44-pin connector). It's safer - and a hell of a lot cheaper - to use AmigaKit's cable. You could try adding an extension or ask them to do you a custom one that's longer and it would still probably come out cheaper.

It's fine to do that. Really.


The alternative is something like this, like what Pat linked. Instead of removing the 68000 from the motherboard you just mount the TF on one of these and (carefully!) put the whole contraption into the accelerator slot.

There have been a few different versions of that, finding one ready made is a little tricky. Probably an open source project via DirtyPCBs or similar. I think Kipper2K did one for Buffee testing or pistorm.


You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.

No. They can't. TF accelerators don't allow Zorro expansions, either in A2000 Zorro card slots or the expansion bus on the side of an A500 or A1000.

Last I heard, anyway. Which is why I posted the exxos link for the Terriblefire support forums
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2021, 10:32:14 PM »
You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.

No. They can't. TF accelerators don't allow Zorro expansions, either in A2000 Zorro card slots or the expansion bus on the side of an A500 or A1000.

Last I heard, anyway. Which is why I posted the exxos link for the Terriblefire support forums

What, really? I hadn't heard about that (although I don't follow the TF stuff closely) but that's a significant design flaw if true.
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2021, 11:22:39 PM »
to explain why TF doesn't work, the SCSI cards want to write to ram directly and apparently the zorro based cards can't reach the TF ram.. thats my understanding at least.  So flaw, but i'm sure it was necessary for efficiency and frankly my need for SCSI is fairly Niche for things like SCSI Flyer..  maybe some day someone will make a real big box accelerator like TF but with design that supports full DMA..

now i'm super paranoid (measure.. three times.. cut once) "It's fine to do that. Really." when you say that @Pat, you mean

     1. using the original cable I linked and to plug a Molex into it would be a good thing..  it's 3" longer than the one amigakit linked so that seems like that's a good thing or added flexibility.  but yea i guess a little more resistance.

     2. would you say if i do that it would be ok to use the accelerator adapter card, or better to go directly into the motherboard still?  or would having the Molex

so good news so far, box arrived and everything is in good shape physically.  i'll try to fire it up tonight.  Just juggling a few things while everyone is up and about in the house.  gotta clear some space off my workspace.. man these big boxes are really BIG.. heh. 

but yes probably everything will just work.. i'm just dealing with a lot of new things..  but TF for awhile is right out because i just have 1.3 WB..  and TF needs 3.1+ so waiting on new rom selector.. and a few other enhancements
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2021, 02:33:58 AM »
I don't know which is best in an A2000, TBH.

I suggest you dismantle the thing and have a look. Give it a good work out with just the vanilla 1.3 and processor.

I'd guess the card slot makes marginally more sense, it's why people build them.

Oh, and 1.3 is OK with an 030. Just doesn't have a preboot menu (hold down both mouse buttons) so you can't disable processor caches.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
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Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2021, 02:56:36 AM »
So I got the unit and it does boot!  See attached..  at least it shows disk.  I'm not 100% confident the primary floppy is good though as it didn't like most of the disks and the two that it seemed to do more than reject outright said it couldn't read them..

the other issue is that i have one of those usb/mouse adapters and trying it in the left and right slot (which one is ACTUALLY the mouse port?) when it was in that "can't read" view i could see the mouse but it wouldn't move.  I'm just not sure if my usb / mouse adapter is compatible with A2000..  it does work fine with my A1200..  so it's working, but maybe voltages are different or A2000 is more picky..  just hoping it's not bad joystick ports. :P

The three fingered salute worked so at least that works on the keyboard for sure.  Haven't gotten anything to run so i can test the keyboard.. 

battery is definitely leak free which is nice to see!  Will feel better when it's replaced. 

I have ADF to Floppy on my A1200 so tomorrow I'm going to make a fresh set of 1.3 disks and see if those fair better. 

I have not put the accelerator in and won't for awhile as without 3.1+ it effectively becomes a 7mhz 030 and no extra ram / hdd..  so no reason to stick it in till i have rom for it.


Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2021, 01:04:40 PM »
Left connector is mouse.

https://www.amigawiki.org/dnl/schematics/A2000_R6.pdf

http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=a2000&pg=5&res=hi&lang=en

You got 2 floppy drives! Nice. Might be fixed by cleaning and lubing a little. I think right most is drive zero. Although the cable actually selects the drive, should be swappable with each other.

Amiga Accelerators generally don't have drivers or settings, they just go. Or not.

Oh, by (3.1 only official support), that doesn't mean the others don't work at all, just that they are never tested.

And there is a hot key (left Amiga key?) that, when used with the cursor keys, can slowly move the mouse pointer around.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
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Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2021, 06:34:42 PM »
ok thanks for that.. yea i figured out it was the left..  now i just hope its ok and it's just my usb adapter that doesn't work well with it.  do you know if there is a particularly good usb/ps2 adapter for the A2000 so I know I have something good?  I have one coming in the mail because i wanted to have one for my A1200 still.. but sadly it looks like it's the same one that I have now..  could it be that some usb optical mice don't work great with these usb to amiga mouse adapters?

IF the ports were for some reason bad, what chip would be responsible for that and how hard would it be to repair? 

Yes you are correct again the one on the right is the zero drive and what it tries to boot from.. but i have little confidence the disks I'm using.  Most are later 2.05 and later OS expecting disks..  i'm using the mono output for now..  which should show anything that comes out of the RGB port right?  just grayscale?  like if I booted from a lemmings disk (not that i have that game) I'd see everything just in b/w?

I haven't tried swapping the drives to see if maybe the other works better?  i have a disk cleaning disk I can pop in there to help insure the heads are clean..  the right drive seems to behave healthy.  sounds good but yea could be sick..  i've used pressured air to blow out dust from around the area and throughout the Box.  Nothing scary came out.. just some acceptable dust bunnies

Well according to the seller the TF cards work like this..   If no 3.1 or newer..  no ram..  no CF card..  and 030 defautls to 7mhz for compatibility..  so yea the card does still "work" without 3.1+ but i figure what's the point if nothing actually improves with it in..  so I'll keep the card out till I replace the rom..  and i have to install the denise scan doubler as well when it arrives

I didn't know about the hot key!  I will try that out tonight.. and swap the disk drives on the chance that left drive might be in better working order..




 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2021, 08:55:17 PM »
ok thanks for that.. yea i figured out it was the left..  now i just hope its ok and it's just my usb adapter that doesn't work well with it.  do you know if there is a particularly good usb/ps2 adapter for the A2000 so I know I have something good?  I have one coming in the mail because i wanted to have one for my A1200 still.. but sadly it looks like it's the same one that I have now..  could it be that some usb optical mice don't work great with these usb to amiga mouse adapters?


Not really. They connect a little differently, that's for sure. But the principal is the same. They do need power, maybe the power pin isn't connected.

IF the ports were for some reason bad, what chip would be responsible for that and how hard would it be to repair? 

Most of the time it's physical damage to the 9 pin connector caused by rage throwing the mouse or joystick. That's a little tricky because you need a fair bit of heat to get the things out of the board. Maybe a broken pin can be bridged, but it's usually a replace job. There are replacements for the port, but the modern ones aren't as solid as the originals.

If you are talking about the adapter getting power OK|, the port is OK, then the mouse pulses from movement get buffered in one chip before being read by Denise. It's nearly always the bufffer chip isn't working. U202 on the schematic (does both ports). the signals are labelled M0V, M0H, M1V, M1H. The type of chip is an 74LS157. The actual connections are listed in the schematic link, Pages "Paula" for the ports, and page "Denise" for where the signals for mouse movement are read by the machine,..

This is all for a Rev 6.2 board, you might well have earlier.

Yes you are correct again the one on the right is the zero drive and what it tries to boot from.. but i have little confidence the disks I'm using.  Most are later 2.05 and later OS expecting disks..  i'm using the mono output for now..  which should show anything that comes out of the RGB port right?  just grayscale?  like if I booted from a lemmings disk (not that i have that game) I'd see everything just in b/w?

Normal for A500 and A2000. Phono composite is grey scale, but colour from RGB port OK.

I haven't tried swapping the drives to see if maybe the other works better?  i have a disk cleaning disk I can pop in there to help insure the heads are clean..  the right drive seems to behave healthy.  sounds good but yea could be sick..  i've used pressured air to blow out dust from around the area and throughout the Box.  Nothing scary came out.. just some acceptable dust bunnies

Not just cleaning, also a little lube on the worm gear that moves the heads across the disk.

Good channel for that stuff (techniques);-

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gadgetuk164+floppy

Well according to the seller the TF cards work like this..   If no 3.1 or newer..  no ram..  no CF card..  and 030 defautls to 7mhz for compatibility..  so yea the card does still "work" without 3.1+ but i figure what's the point if nothing actually improves with it in..  so I'll keep the card out till I replace the rom..  and i have to install the denise scan doubler as well when it arrives

I didn't know about the hot key!  I will try that out tonight.. and swap the disk drives on the chance that left drive might be in better working order..

https://defkey.com/workbench-amigaos-shortcuts

The really funky shortcuts let you flip between running programs.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 01:28:35 AM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2021, 01:33:14 AM »
Oh yeah, one other thing you might be interested in is RGB2HDMI, you can fit an A2000 version of that into the video slot. Gives a nice hires HDMI port, no flicker. Doesn't do superhires though.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2021, 01:02:29 PM »
@Pat I have a video toaster unfortunately so that's right out :P

I'll have to test some different mice.  i only tried one, though it was one that works with my A1200.  It's probably just that. 

I see a number of ps/2 to 9pin adapters like this one.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/383611674085?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=383611674085&targetid=1262779893289&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001994&poi=&campaignid=13917593257&mkgroupid=128459893881&rlsatarget=pla-1262779893289&abcId=9300613&merchantid=113781450&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqp-LBhDQARIsAO0a6aI4nEdp1GJnICIgJgGYmT-cQAa_P2HklYz9J30ucAjzSGSKHIClE5AaAnIsEALw_wcB

I would feel better using a ps/2 mouse rather than usb just because i could see it being closer to the era.. less voltage expectation..

the 9 pin connectors are healthy.  so i don't think it's a connectivity issue, but i'll have to troubleshoot further

I have a 6.2 rev board.  So that also makes me feel more confident its the mouse not the motherboard.

Cool glad to know the visuals are 1:1 in all situations with composite (except grayscale)

Yea i'll take the drives out and give a good cleaning.  Lord knows they have earned it! 

Thanks for those shortcuts.. i've never used any of this even back when i was an exclusive user of the amiga.. heh.  :)    the more you know! 
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2021, 11:57:26 PM »
I see a number of ps/2 to 9pin adapters like this one.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/383611674085?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=383611674085&targetid=1262779893289&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001994&poi=&campaignid=13917593257&mkgroupid=128459893881&rlsatarget=pla-1262779893289&abcId=9300613&merchantid=113781450&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqp-LBhDQARIsAO0a6aI4nEdp1GJnICIgJgGYmT-cQAa_P2HklYz9J30ucAjzSGSKHIClE5AaAnIsEALw_wcB

I would feel better using a ps/2 mouse rather than usb just because i could see it being closer to the era.. less voltage expectation..
Don't use one of those adapters! That's to use a PS/2 mouse on a PC's 9-pin serial port. The Amiga's 9-pin ports are not serial ports. Electrically, they're completely different. That adapter won't work and it might even damage something on the Amiga, so avoid, avoid avoid.

You need an adapter designed for the Amiga. The Micromys V5 is supposed to be a good one for PS/2, although I don't have any personal experience with it. The fact your existing USB adapter doesn't work is concerning and could indicate a problem on the motherboard. But first try other mice and adapters. Hopefully it's just a random compatibility problem.