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AuthorTopic: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.  (Read 1632 times)

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Offline part12studios

IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« on: October 09, 2021, 11:57:47 PM »
I understand this is possible, but I just wonder if anyone has advice about what kind of CDROMs will work with it? 

I've heard that you still use scsi.device even though it's IDE, but has me wondering if that's right. 

I'd love to hear any first hand experiences of A2000 owners who have done this successfully or otherwise.  I feel a bit disappointed when I learned that this accelerator would not work with SCSI cards, which means no ZIP or SCSI drives which I already own..  so I'm trying to at least get a CDROM working so I can install video toaster software and heck, check out other CD Media out there.

I was told this would be a good cable but being $25 I don't really want to buy it if it's not the right one.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/290822701631?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D312cf8860fb749e8bf8d6f35ec6fda7e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D353712720447%26itm%3D290822701631%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DCablesOnline&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A0dd8117f-294c-11ec-bb96-3a79b4d4a6f6%7Cparentrq%3A6710a5ba17c0a44c2b528d15fffb92bc%7Ciid%3A1

Thanks!
Caleb
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2021, 01:06:05 AM »
In theory not too difficult. Preferably with Kickstart 2 or later in the machine.

The snags are 2 fold. First, you will need a CD ROM handler for taking care of reading different formats.

https://aminet.net/package/disk/cdrom/AmiCDROM-1.15

(it's the baseline choice). Only really needs cd-rom.handler in L directory and CD0 mounlitst in Devs.

However, one very likely possibility is your hard drive may not work at all with another drive on the chain. Compact Flash card adapters do have a reputation fo not working withanother drive on the same cable.

There are different versions of scsi.device as well, worth typing into a shell;-

Version scsi.device         ,- and hit ENTER

To check how compatible with CD-ROM usage.

EDIT: Cable looks correct. Not easy to match the 2 sizes on the same cable, that one looks quite tidy.

Another problem you may have is cable length. I'm not sure what the limit is on a Terriblefire card, part of it would depend on how good the 5 volt supply is to the card.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 01:12:43 AM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
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Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2021, 01:55:34 AM »
Oh, there is an alternative software solution if your scsi.device is not CD ROM capable;-

https://aminet.net/package/driver/media/IDEfix97

Comes with filesystem too, should work as was built around A600/A1200 IDE interface.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2021, 04:20:40 AM »
That's great.  Sounds promising.  Any word on knowing if a cable will work or not?  I heard something about unbuffered or buffered cables and want to be sure I get the right kind. 

I will have access to 1.3 2.05 3.1 and 3.2 on this system when everything arrives in the mail.  Hopefully 3.2 might have some advancements in this department? 

Thanks for confirming the cable.  yea I think the accelerator will be pretty close to the Drive bay so assuming this cable isn't too long for the voltage itself, I shouldn't need to extend it any further. 
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2021, 01:43:16 PM »
Yeah, but the NICE part about that cable is it gives another ground and 5 volt connection to the Terriblefire.

Buffering means nothing as far as the cable goes, buffers are built into the drives and controllers. They're NOT present on an A600 or A1200 motherboard.

One thing you might want to check is that Mr Leary (Terriblefire) actually has implemented master/slave channels on his "fake Gayle" IDE implementation. Probably has. Might be somebody already tried.

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=65

EDIT: Apparently 3.1 gives best results currently, 3.2 compatibility still problematic (but emerging).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 02:08:36 PM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2021, 02:28:34 PM »
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up. 

Good about 3.1 insight.  That's my personal preference as well.  Thanks for that tip!  I figure 3.2 has potential where it can be enhanced / updated vs. 3.1 being locked in time and nice that 3.0 got a chance to get a revision to work out the kinks of a significantly updated rom. 

"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?  do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave. 



 

Online Matt_H

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2021, 05:39:23 PM »
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up.
The cable you linked is for running 44-pin devices off of a 40-pin controller. Power lines are integrated into 44-pin cables but not 40-pin cables, so that cable has an external power input to provide power to the 44-pin devices connected to it.

I'm not familiar with the TF536, but from the description I see online it looks like it has a 44-pin controller. Assuming your CF adapter is a 44-pin device, you'd need a cable with 2x 44-pin connectors (controller and CF) and 1x 40-pin connector (CD-ROM). I think you could use your cable for that as long as you left the power plug disconnected since you'd be using the cable "backwards." Power the CD drive directly from the A2000's supply. Or you could use one of these if you have a CF adapter with a 40-pin connector. Both CF and CD would be externally powered from the A2000's supply.

Quote
"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?
On the 600 and 1200, the Gayle chip contains the IDE controller and the driver (scsi.device) is in the Kickstart ROM. Because the 500/600/2000 use the same ROM, most 500/2000 CPU socket accelerators with IDE controllers try to mimic the signals from Gayle so that they can use the existing driver in the Kickstart.

Quote
do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave.
Some CF adapters have master/slave jumpers, others don't. All CD drives do. I think it's a good assumption that the CF adapter will be master if there are no jumpers.


Also note that (IDE) scsi.device under 3.1 and below can't detect CD drives. The IDEfix package that Pat linked includes atapi.device, which will work. You may also want to look into AsimCDFS (3.10 is the last version), which includes asim_atapi.device. Personally, I prefer Asim, which is CD support and nothing more. IDEfix provides CD support and does a lot of other things to the IDE subsystem which you may or may not want.

3.2 (and I think 3.1.4) requires no additional software for CD support.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 05:41:06 PM by Matt_H »
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2021, 11:51:37 PM »
awesome that's great to hear! This all sounds very promising.  i'll know more once i have the amiga 2000, which arrives this week.  I have the TF536 packed away.  I've been keeping it safe till i absolutely need to pull it out to install it. 

So yes 44 pins on the TF536.  So this means it provides power with the extra pins?  I also took a look at my card and it's 44pin and it does have master slave pins.. 

So with that knowledge it seems like this cable is good that was linked above right?  TF card (44pin) to CF Card set to Master (44pin) to CDROM (40pin) and only the CDROM would need A2000 direct power 4pin Molex cables.  If i'm not mistaken the TF card is installed in the middle of the machine..

OK yes so it sounds like I could try 3.1 or 3.2 to get it working.  I may start with 3.2 until i run into issues.  Sounds like it would be the fastest way just to see that it works.  I'm still partial to making 3.1 work with a little effort but if 3.2 out of the box should work I might start there. 

Would a DVD drive work? or should I stick to a strict CD ROM for success?  burning CDs easy with Amiga?  is that even a viable thing?  I've heard there is software that can, but i've never used any of it before. 



 

Online Matt_H

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2021, 01:03:24 AM »
Yes, it looks like that cable would work from an electrical standpoint. But as I look at it again I think it might be too short. And it's really expensive. My advice would be to keep looking. You can probably find a functionally identical cable with more length at a better price. AmigaKit could probably make you one if you inquire.

You can use a DVD drive but it will effectively function as a CD drive - the Amiga CD filesystems were written before DVDs existed and don't know how to fully handle DVDs. The exception to this *might* be the CDFS shipped with 3.2. I can't remember from the release notes if DVD support was added.

MakeCD is the standard for CD burning on the Amiga. There are/were a few other programs, but MakeCD is the most mature/stable, albeit a bit verbose by modern standards.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 03:30:50 AM »
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up. 

The TF536 gets all it's power from the CPU pins. With relocators etc this could be a problem.

Having an extra connection (like that cable) means the power to run the hard drive (CF card or sd card or whatever) doesn't have to come from that CPU pin chain).

Plus a little extra to keep the CPU and CPLD, RAM etc on the TF536 nice and happy. Connecting it should make the system more stable if anything,

Good about 3.1 insight.  That's my personal preference as well.  Thanks for that tip!  I figure 3.2 has potential where it can be enhanced / updated vs. 3.1 being locked in time and nice that 3.0 got a chance to get a revision to work out the kinks of a significantly updated rom. 

"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?  do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave.

Most devices default to Master, all CD / DVD drives let you swich via a jumper. The Amiga does not care which is the hard drive and which the CD drive.

You might find some magazine coverdisk CDs show up as bootable devices.Even on 3.1 or even 2.05.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 03:37:26 AM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 08:39:48 PM »
what do you mean by "relocators"? 

when you refer to (that cable) you mean the original one i linked? 

I will have the CD ROM get it's power from the A2000 case.  I'm not sure how i could power the CF card without the 44 pin from the TF card.  I'm assuming that if the CDROM is powered externally this should mean the TF card is getting no more power stress than powering the CF Card itself, which I imagine is not that much power right?  it's not even a micro-drive, no moving parts. 

Are you maybe suggesting the Molex cable on the ribbon is intended to be plugged into the A2000 to get extra power?  it's a female receptor so it seems like that would SEND power to the cord, but dear lord I wouldn't want to send voltage to the card and do damage! 


Now regarding the length, I should be ok to use some kind of extender like this right? https://www.ebay.com/itm/270752545769?hash=item3f0a1bfbe9:g:SAIAAOSw~OVWznSJ 

As for cost / convenience, I will ask around, but its free shipping and i figure for it to be worth anyone's time and shipping from UK.. it's going to almost certainly get close to the same cost..  it IS expensive, but if it does the job it's a reasonable investment.   Just so long as it does the job right and doesn't hurt the computer in the process.

Thanks for the explanation about DVD and CD Maker. That is awesome that it could burn disks.  What would be a good speed for the amiga's IDE bus?  4x? 
 

Online Matt_H

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2021, 10:06:16 PM »
There's no need to send supplemental power to the card. By design, if it has a 44-pin connector, it's capable of powering a 44-pin device, e.g., the CF adapter. If supplemental power was a concern, there'd probably be a Berg/floppy-style power input directly on the card.

I think the relocators Pat is referring to are something like this, which can be necessary in some systems to make the accelerator fit physically into the machine without being blocked by other components. In theory, the longer distance for the signals to travel could cause issues but I haven't seen/noticed any reports of that happening.

Extending IDE cables is a little more fraught with possible problems. You can try the extender, but if you have read/write errors or data integrity problems along the bus then the cable becomes your main suspect. ;)
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2021, 10:34:51 PM »
what do you mean by "relocators"? 


You have to remember that TF cards are designed to plug in where the CPU goes inside an A500.

Fitting them in an A2000 is not that easy. Very often people put them into an adapter that goes into the CPU expansion card slot rather than the place that the 68000 chip connects..

More constraint for the power to go through a set of pins before going to the hard drive, to get the card to FIT in the space, you need a relocator.

Having a direct connection means there is more copper to carry to the power, less constraint.

Picture of a relocator (not in English but you can get the idea).

https://www.steffr.ch/a2000-terriblefire-534/
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 10:39:31 PM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline part12studios

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2021, 01:42:57 AM »
OK gotcha now.  I do have the relocator as a precaution but i may consider having it installed directly into the socket knowing that if the extension card proves to not be effective.  I am taking the unit in to a local repair person to replace the existing varta (hasn't started leaking yet) with a new one.  I like computers that can keep time. 

So yea seeing him having to get that into the system it probably would be pretty easy to install the accelerator into the socket, or is it still really tricky?  My A2000 arrives tomorrow so I'll have more concrete view of things. 

I am surprised that little additional copper would degrade the voltage that much but i know these are low voltages so i understand it's a thing because people are talking about it. 
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 05:12:50 AM »
Well... prepare for an education in mid 80s construction. :)

They were built to last. Depends if pins or slots corroded much. Not at all if description is accurate.

Fingers crossed your plan will succeed.

The only real iffy part is the hard drive replacement being OK with another drive. sd type adapters always work for that, not all compact flash adapters do.

Or even a real IDE hard drive. Although some of them don't work with a second drive either (nearly all do though).
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 5, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi