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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: part12studios on October 09, 2021, 11:57:47 PM

Title: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 09, 2021, 11:57:47 PM
I understand this is possible, but I just wonder if anyone has advice about what kind of CDROMs will work with it? 

I've heard that you still use scsi.device even though it's IDE, but has me wondering if that's right. 

I'd love to hear any first hand experiences of A2000 owners who have done this successfully or otherwise.  I feel a bit disappointed when I learned that this accelerator would not work with SCSI cards, which means no ZIP or SCSI drives which I already own..  so I'm trying to at least get a CDROM working so I can install video toaster software and heck, check out other CD Media out there.

I was told this would be a good cable but being $25 I don't really want to buy it if it's not the right one.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/290822701631?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D312cf8860fb749e8bf8d6f35ec6fda7e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D353712720447%26itm%3D290822701631%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DCablesOnline&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A0dd8117f-294c-11ec-bb96-3a79b4d4a6f6%7Cparentrq%3A6710a5ba17c0a44c2b528d15fffb92bc%7Ciid%3A1 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/290822701631?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D312cf8860fb749e8bf8d6f35ec6fda7e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D353712720447%26itm%3D290822701631%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DCablesOnline&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A0dd8117f-294c-11ec-bb96-3a79b4d4a6f6%7Cparentrq%3A6710a5ba17c0a44c2b528d15fffb92bc%7Ciid%3A1)

Thanks!
Caleb
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 10, 2021, 01:06:05 AM
In theory not too difficult. Preferably with Kickstart 2 or later in the machine.

The snags are 2 fold. First, you will need a CD ROM handler for taking care of reading different formats.

https://aminet.net/package/disk/cdrom/AmiCDROM-1.15

(it's the baseline choice). Only really needs cd-rom.handler in L directory and CD0 mounlitst in Devs.

However, one very likely possibility is your hard drive may not work at all with another drive on the chain. Compact Flash card adapters do have a reputation fo not working withanother drive on the same cable.

There are different versions of scsi.device as well, worth typing into a shell;-

Version scsi.device         ,- and hit ENTER

To check how compatible with CD-ROM usage.

EDIT: Cable looks correct. Not easy to match the 2 sizes on the same cable, that one looks quite tidy.

Another problem you may have is cable length. I'm not sure what the limit is on a Terriblefire card, part of it would depend on how good the 5 volt supply is to the card.

Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 10, 2021, 01:55:34 AM
Oh, there is an alternative software solution if your scsi.device is not CD ROM capable;-

https://aminet.net/package/driver/media/IDEfix97

Comes with filesystem too, should work as was built around A600/A1200 IDE interface.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 10, 2021, 04:20:40 AM
That's great.  Sounds promising.  Any word on knowing if a cable will work or not?  I heard something about unbuffered or buffered cables and want to be sure I get the right kind. 

I will have access to 1.3 2.05 3.1 and 3.2 on this system when everything arrives in the mail.  Hopefully 3.2 might have some advancements in this department? 

Thanks for confirming the cable.  yea I think the accelerator will be pretty close to the Drive bay so assuming this cable isn't too long for the voltage itself, I shouldn't need to extend it any further. 
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 10, 2021, 01:43:16 PM
Yeah, but the NICE part about that cable is it gives another ground and 5 volt connection to the Terriblefire.

Buffering means nothing as far as the cable goes, buffers are built into the drives and controllers. They're NOT present on an A600 or A1200 motherboard.

One thing you might want to check is that Mr Leary (Terriblefire) actually has implemented master/slave channels on his "fake Gayle" IDE implementation. Probably has. Might be somebody already tried.

https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=65

EDIT: Apparently 3.1 gives best results currently, 3.2 compatibility still problematic (but emerging).
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 10, 2021, 02:28:34 PM
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up. 

Good about 3.1 insight.  That's my personal preference as well.  Thanks for that tip!  I figure 3.2 has potential where it can be enhanced / updated vs. 3.1 being locked in time and nice that 3.0 got a chance to get a revision to work out the kinks of a significantly updated rom. 

"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?  do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave. 



Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 10, 2021, 05:39:23 PM
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up.
The cable you linked is for running 44-pin devices off of a 40-pin controller. Power lines are integrated into 44-pin cables but not 40-pin cables, so that cable has an external power input to provide power to the 44-pin devices connected to it.

I'm not familiar with the TF536, but from the description I see online it looks like it has a 44-pin controller. Assuming your CF adapter is a 44-pin device, you'd need a cable with 2x 44-pin connectors (controller and CF) and 1x 40-pin connector (CD-ROM). I think you could use your cable for that as long as you left the power plug disconnected since you'd be using the cable "backwards." Power the CD drive directly from the A2000's supply. Or you could use one of these (http://amigakit.amiga.store/cable-p-438.html) if you have a CF adapter with a 40-pin connector. Both CF and CD would be externally powered from the A2000's supply.

Quote
"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?
On the 600 and 1200, the Gayle chip contains the IDE controller and the driver (scsi.device) is in the Kickstart ROM. Because the 500/600/2000 use the same ROM, most 500/2000 CPU socket accelerators with IDE controllers try to mimic the signals from Gayle so that they can use the existing driver in the Kickstart.

Quote
do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave.
Some CF adapters have master/slave jumpers, others don't. All CD drives do. I think it's a good assumption that the CF adapter will be master if there are no jumpers.


Also note that (IDE) scsi.device under 3.1 and below can't detect CD drives. The IDEfix package that Pat linked includes atapi.device, which will work. You may also want to look into AsimCDFS (3.10 is the last version), which includes asim_atapi.device. Personally, I prefer Asim, which is CD support and nothing more. IDEfix provides CD support and does a lot of other things to the IDE subsystem which you may or may not want.

3.2 (and I think 3.1.4) requires no additional software for CD support.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 10, 2021, 11:51:37 PM
awesome that's great to hear! This all sounds very promising.  i'll know more once i have the amiga 2000, which arrives this week.  I have the TF536 packed away.  I've been keeping it safe till i absolutely need to pull it out to install it. 

So yes 44 pins on the TF536.  So this means it provides power with the extra pins?  I also took a look at my card and it's 44pin and it does have master slave pins.. 

So with that knowledge it seems like this cable is good that was linked above right?  TF card (44pin) to CF Card set to Master (44pin) to CDROM (40pin) and only the CDROM would need A2000 direct power 4pin Molex cables.  If i'm not mistaken the TF card is installed in the middle of the machine..

OK yes so it sounds like I could try 3.1 or 3.2 to get it working.  I may start with 3.2 until i run into issues.  Sounds like it would be the fastest way just to see that it works.  I'm still partial to making 3.1 work with a little effort but if 3.2 out of the box should work I might start there. 

Would a DVD drive work? or should I stick to a strict CD ROM for success?  burning CDs easy with Amiga?  is that even a viable thing?  I've heard there is software that can, but i've never used any of it before. 



Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 11, 2021, 01:03:24 AM
Yes, it looks like that cable would work from an electrical standpoint. But as I look at it again I think it might be too short. And it's really expensive. My advice would be to keep looking. You can probably find a functionally identical cable with more length at a better price. AmigaKit could probably make you one if you inquire.

You can use a DVD drive but it will effectively function as a CD drive - the Amiga CD filesystems were written before DVDs existed and don't know how to fully handle DVDs. The exception to this *might* be the CDFS shipped with 3.2. I can't remember from the release notes if DVD support was added.

MakeCD (http://www.estamos.de/makecd/) is the standard for CD burning on the Amiga. There are/were a few other programs, but MakeCD is the most mature/stable, albeit a bit verbose by modern standards.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 11, 2021, 03:30:50 AM
what is the significance of that +5 v to the card?  the cable you mean is this one i liked specifically?  i'm just making sure i don't get info mixed up. 

The TF536 gets all it's power from the CPU pins. With relocators etc this could be a problem.

Having an extra connection (like that cable) means the power to run the hard drive (CF card or sd card or whatever) doesn't have to come from that CPU pin chain).

Plus a little extra to keep the CPU and CPLD, RAM etc on the TF536 nice and happy. Connecting it should make the system more stable if anything,

Good about 3.1 insight.  That's my personal preference as well.  Thanks for that tip!  I figure 3.2 has potential where it can be enhanced / updated vs. 3.1 being locked in time and nice that 3.0 got a chance to get a revision to work out the kinks of a significantly updated rom. 

"fake Gayle" IDE implementation. ?   what does that mean?  there is an IDE pin setup on the card.  how does this work?  do cd ide adapters have master/slave pins?  i know the cd rom would have to be the other of course..  assuming cf is master and cd rom would be slave.

Most devices default to Master, all CD / DVD drives let you swich via a jumper. The Amiga does not care which is the hard drive and which the CD drive.

You might find some magazine coverdisk CDs show up as bootable devices.Even on 3.1 or even 2.05.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 11, 2021, 08:39:48 PM
what do you mean by "relocators"? 

when you refer to (that cable) you mean the original one i linked? 

I will have the CD ROM get it's power from the A2000 case.  I'm not sure how i could power the CF card without the 44 pin from the TF card.  I'm assuming that if the CDROM is powered externally this should mean the TF card is getting no more power stress than powering the CF Card itself, which I imagine is not that much power right?  it's not even a micro-drive, no moving parts. 

Are you maybe suggesting the Molex cable on the ribbon is intended to be plugged into the A2000 to get extra power?  it's a female receptor so it seems like that would SEND power to the cord, but dear lord I wouldn't want to send voltage to the card and do damage! 


Now regarding the length, I should be ok to use some kind of extender like this right? https://www.ebay.com/itm/270752545769?hash=item3f0a1bfbe9:g:SAIAAOSw~OVWznSJ 

As for cost / convenience, I will ask around, but its free shipping and i figure for it to be worth anyone's time and shipping from UK.. it's going to almost certainly get close to the same cost..  it IS expensive, but if it does the job it's a reasonable investment.   Just so long as it does the job right and doesn't hurt the computer in the process.

Thanks for the explanation about DVD and CD Maker. That is awesome that it could burn disks.  What would be a good speed for the amiga's IDE bus?  4x? 
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 11, 2021, 10:06:16 PM
There's no need to send supplemental power to the card. By design, if it has a 44-pin connector, it's capable of powering a 44-pin device, e.g., the CF adapter. If supplemental power was a concern, there'd probably be a Berg/floppy-style power input directly on the card.

I think the relocators Pat is referring to are something like this (https://retrorewind.ca/a500-2000-cpu-relocator), which can be necessary in some systems to make the accelerator fit physically into the machine without being blocked by other components. In theory, the longer distance for the signals to travel could cause issues but I haven't seen/noticed any reports of that happening.

Extending IDE cables is a little more fraught with possible problems. You can try the extender, but if you have read/write errors or data integrity problems along the bus then the cable becomes your main suspect. ;)
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 11, 2021, 10:34:51 PM
what do you mean by "relocators"? 


You have to remember that TF cards are designed to plug in where the CPU goes inside an A500.

Fitting them in an A2000 is not that easy. Very often people put them into an adapter that goes into the CPU expansion card slot rather than the place that the 68000 chip connects..

More constraint for the power to go through a set of pins before going to the hard drive, to get the card to FIT in the space, you need a relocator.

Having a direct connection means there is more copper to carry to the power, less constraint.

Picture of a relocator (not in English but you can get the idea).

https://www.steffr.ch/a2000-terriblefire-534/
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 12, 2021, 01:42:57 AM
OK gotcha now.  I do have the relocator as a precaution but i may consider having it installed directly into the socket knowing that if the extension card proves to not be effective.  I am taking the unit in to a local repair person to replace the existing varta (hasn't started leaking yet) with a new one.  I like computers that can keep time. 

So yea seeing him having to get that into the system it probably would be pretty easy to install the accelerator into the socket, or is it still really tricky?  My A2000 arrives tomorrow so I'll have more concrete view of things. 

I am surprised that little additional copper would degrade the voltage that much but i know these are low voltages so i understand it's a thing because people are talking about it. 
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 12, 2021, 05:12:50 AM
Well... prepare for an education in mid 80s construction. :)

They were built to last. Depends if pins or slots corroded much. Not at all if description is accurate.

Fingers crossed your plan will succeed.

The only real iffy part is the hard drive replacement being OK with another drive. sd type adapters always work for that, not all compact flash adapters do.

Or even a real IDE hard drive. Although some of them don't work with a second drive either (nearly all do though).
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 12, 2021, 06:24:51 AM
do you have a suggestion for a good sd hard drive alternative?  the TF came with the CF but frankly I'm partial to SD because it's newer..  CF is getting old and I imagine more prone to wear out sooner at this point. 

Yea i like to think this one is cleaner than most i've seen.  not to say it's immaculate.. it's not..  i figure some deoxit and a toothbrush will do the various slots some good.. 

the 68000 cpu is removable I take it?  if I did put the TF in the cpu slot..   in theory if I ever got a original accelerator (after selling a kidney) and i had the TF in the cpu.. would the other card effectively bypass it? 

I'm still a bit disappointed about this card not allowing me to use scsi. but the IDE option makes it ok..  I just gave up on any SCSI hopes and video flyer...  but obviously seeing the insanely steep prices of A2000 accelerators it was the sane solution.  :)
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 12, 2021, 03:45:41 PM
So this is the one that AmigaKit came back saying I should get http://amigakit.amiga.store/adapter-cable-25cm-p-1289.html

So this looks about the same BUT it's actually shorter than the one I ordered.. and no power port..  would I damage something if i plugged one of my Molex connectors into that port on the ribbon?  Or would it provide helpful voltage to power the devices or might it zap something?
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 12, 2021, 05:20:15 PM
Yes, the A2000, A1000 and A500 all have socketed chips (CPU, Agnus, Denise, Paula, Gary, CIA chips).

A2000 acclerators are a mixed bag. A few insist there is a real CPU in the 68000 socket to bypass. Others don't care and just work, bypassing a real chip and ignoring a missing one.

Don't worry too much about getting the compact flash card perfect first go. You can always replace the adapter, and some of them have power input connectors (usually a floppy drive power cable).

Only if a working CF card stopped working with a CD ROM attached, that's when a replacement might be a good idea. And you might jusr luck out and it all works anyway,
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 12, 2021, 06:28:41 PM
So this is the one that AmigaKit came back saying I should get http://amigakit.amiga.store/adapter-cable-25cm-p-1289.html

So this looks about the same BUT it's actually shorter than the one I ordered.. and no power port..  would I damage something if i plugged one of my Molex connectors into that port on the ribbon?  Or would it provide helpful voltage to power the devices or might it zap something?
The original cable you linked had a connector to feed power to 2x 44-pin hard drives. Running it "backwards" as you'd need to would mean feeding power directly into the accelerator. Such a thing might be perfectly fine, but it also might be dangerous since the accelerator is designed to draw power only from the CPU socket (and therefore through the onboard regulator circuitry before reaching the 44-pin connector). It's safer - and a hell of a lot cheaper - to use AmigaKit's cable. You could try adding an extension or ask them to do you a custom one that's longer and it would still probably come out cheaper.

do you have a suggestion for a good sd hard drive alternative?  the TF came with the CF but frankly I'm partial to SD because it's newer..  CF is getting old and I imagine more prone to wear out sooner at this point.
I agree with Pat. If you have the CF setup in hand (and it works), there's no need to go to SD.

Quote
the 68000 cpu is removable I take it?  if I did put the TF in the cpu slot..   in theory if I ever got a original accelerator (after selling a kidney) and i had the TF in the cpu.. would the other card effectively bypass it?
Yes, the 68000 is socketed. If you later got an accelerator-slot accelerator you'd most likely need to remove the TF and replace the original 68000. The alternative is something like this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/164808167007), like what Pat linked. Instead of removing the 68000 from the motherboard you just mount the TF on one of these and (carefully!) put the whole contraption into the accelerator slot.

Quote
I'm still a bit disappointed about this card not allowing me to use scsi. but the IDE option makes it ok..  I just gave up on any SCSI hopes and video flyer...  but obviously seeing the insanely steep prices of A2000 accelerators it was the sane solution.  :)
You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 12, 2021, 06:45:52 PM
The original cable you linked had a connector to feed power to 2x 44-pin hard drives. Running it "backwards" as you'd need to would mean feeding power directly into the accelerator. Such a thing might be perfectly fine, but it also might be dangerous since the accelerator is designed to draw power only from the CPU socket (and therefore through the onboard regulator circuitry before reaching the 44-pin connector). It's safer - and a hell of a lot cheaper - to use AmigaKit's cable. You could try adding an extension or ask them to do you a custom one that's longer and it would still probably come out cheaper.

It's fine to do that. Really.


The alternative is something like this (https://www.ebay.com/itm/164808167007), like what Pat linked. Instead of removing the 68000 from the motherboard you just mount the TF on one of these and (carefully!) put the whole contraption into the accelerator slot.

There have been a few different versions of that, finding one ready made is a little tricky. Probably an open source project via DirtyPCBs or similar. I think Kipper2K did one for Buffee testing or pistorm.


You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.

No. They can't. TF accelerators don't allow Zorro expansions, either in A2000 Zorro card slots or the expansion bus on the side of an A500 or A1000.

Last I heard, anyway. Which is why I posted the exxos link for the Terriblefire support forums
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 12, 2021, 10:32:14 PM
You could always get a (used) Zorro-based SCSI controller. Not terribly cheap, but not as expensive as an accelerator.
And if you later want to make this into a Toaster/Flyer machine, you don't need a separate SCSI controller, just a hard drive (or equivalent). The Flyer is its own SCSI controller for video hard drives.

No. They can't. TF accelerators don't allow Zorro expansions, either in A2000 Zorro card slots or the expansion bus on the side of an A500 or A1000.

Last I heard, anyway. Which is why I posted the exxos link for the Terriblefire support forums

What, really? I hadn't heard about that (although I don't follow the TF stuff closely) but that's a significant design flaw if true.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 12, 2021, 11:22:39 PM
to explain why TF doesn't work, the SCSI cards want to write to ram directly and apparently the zorro based cards can't reach the TF ram.. thats my understanding at least.  So flaw, but i'm sure it was necessary for efficiency and frankly my need for SCSI is fairly Niche for things like SCSI Flyer..  maybe some day someone will make a real big box accelerator like TF but with design that supports full DMA..

now i'm super paranoid (measure.. three times.. cut once) "It's fine to do that. Really." when you say that @Pat, you mean

     1. using the original cable I linked and to plug a Molex into it would be a good thing..  it's 3" longer than the one amigakit linked so that seems like that's a good thing or added flexibility.  but yea i guess a little more resistance.

     2. would you say if i do that it would be ok to use the accelerator adapter card, or better to go directly into the motherboard still?  or would having the Molex

so good news so far, box arrived and everything is in good shape physically.  i'll try to fire it up tonight.  Just juggling a few things while everyone is up and about in the house.  gotta clear some space off my workspace.. man these big boxes are really BIG.. heh. 

but yes probably everything will just work.. i'm just dealing with a lot of new things..  but TF for awhile is right out because i just have 1.3 WB..  and TF needs 3.1+ so waiting on new rom selector.. and a few other enhancements
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 13, 2021, 02:33:58 AM
I don't know which is best in an A2000, TBH.

I suggest you dismantle the thing and have a look. Give it a good work out with just the vanilla 1.3 and processor.

I'd guess the card slot makes marginally more sense, it's why people build them.

Oh, and 1.3 is OK with an 030. Just doesn't have a preboot menu (hold down both mouse buttons) so you can't disable processor caches.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 13, 2021, 02:56:36 AM
So I got the unit and it does boot!  See attached..  at least it shows disk.  I'm not 100% confident the primary floppy is good though as it didn't like most of the disks and the two that it seemed to do more than reject outright said it couldn't read them..

the other issue is that i have one of those usb/mouse adapters and trying it in the left and right slot (which one is ACTUALLY the mouse port?) when it was in that "can't read" view i could see the mouse but it wouldn't move.  I'm just not sure if my usb / mouse adapter is compatible with A2000..  it does work fine with my A1200..  so it's working, but maybe voltages are different or A2000 is more picky..  just hoping it's not bad joystick ports. :P

The three fingered salute worked so at least that works on the keyboard for sure.  Haven't gotten anything to run so i can test the keyboard.. 

battery is definitely leak free which is nice to see!  Will feel better when it's replaced. 

I have ADF to Floppy on my A1200 so tomorrow I'm going to make a fresh set of 1.3 disks and see if those fair better. 

I have not put the accelerator in and won't for awhile as without 3.1+ it effectively becomes a 7mhz 030 and no extra ram / hdd..  so no reason to stick it in till i have rom for it.

Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 13, 2021, 01:04:40 PM
Left connector is mouse.

https://www.amigawiki.org/dnl/schematics/A2000_R6.pdf

http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photo2.pl?id=a2000&pg=5&res=hi&lang=en

You got 2 floppy drives! Nice. Might be fixed by cleaning and lubing a little. I think right most is drive zero. Although the cable actually selects the drive, should be swappable with each other.

Amiga Accelerators generally don't have drivers or settings, they just go. Or not.

Oh, by (3.1 only official support), that doesn't mean the others don't work at all, just that they are never tested.

And there is a hot key (left Amiga key?) that, when used with the cursor keys, can slowly move the mouse pointer around.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 13, 2021, 06:34:42 PM
ok thanks for that.. yea i figured out it was the left..  now i just hope its ok and it's just my usb adapter that doesn't work well with it.  do you know if there is a particularly good usb/ps2 adapter for the A2000 so I know I have something good?  I have one coming in the mail because i wanted to have one for my A1200 still.. but sadly it looks like it's the same one that I have now..  could it be that some usb optical mice don't work great with these usb to amiga mouse adapters?

IF the ports were for some reason bad, what chip would be responsible for that and how hard would it be to repair? 

Yes you are correct again the one on the right is the zero drive and what it tries to boot from.. but i have little confidence the disks I'm using.  Most are later 2.05 and later OS expecting disks..  i'm using the mono output for now..  which should show anything that comes out of the RGB port right?  just grayscale?  like if I booted from a lemmings disk (not that i have that game) I'd see everything just in b/w?

I haven't tried swapping the drives to see if maybe the other works better?  i have a disk cleaning disk I can pop in there to help insure the heads are clean..  the right drive seems to behave healthy.  sounds good but yea could be sick..  i've used pressured air to blow out dust from around the area and throughout the Box.  Nothing scary came out.. just some acceptable dust bunnies

Well according to the seller the TF cards work like this..   If no 3.1 or newer..  no ram..  no CF card..  and 030 defautls to 7mhz for compatibility..  so yea the card does still "work" without 3.1+ but i figure what's the point if nothing actually improves with it in..  so I'll keep the card out till I replace the rom..  and i have to install the denise scan doubler as well when it arrives

I didn't know about the hot key!  I will try that out tonight.. and swap the disk drives on the chance that left drive might be in better working order..




Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 13, 2021, 08:55:17 PM
ok thanks for that.. yea i figured out it was the left..  now i just hope its ok and it's just my usb adapter that doesn't work well with it.  do you know if there is a particularly good usb/ps2 adapter for the A2000 so I know I have something good?  I have one coming in the mail because i wanted to have one for my A1200 still.. but sadly it looks like it's the same one that I have now..  could it be that some usb optical mice don't work great with these usb to amiga mouse adapters?


Not really. They connect a little differently, that's for sure. But the principal is the same. They do need power, maybe the power pin isn't connected.

IF the ports were for some reason bad, what chip would be responsible for that and how hard would it be to repair? 

Most of the time it's physical damage to the 9 pin connector caused by rage throwing the mouse or joystick. That's a little tricky because you need a fair bit of heat to get the things out of the board. Maybe a broken pin can be bridged, but it's usually a replace job. There are replacements for the port, but the modern ones aren't as solid as the originals.

If you are talking about the adapter getting power OK|, the port is OK, then the mouse pulses from movement get buffered in one chip before being read by Denise. It's nearly always the bufffer chip isn't working. U202 on the schematic (does both ports). the signals are labelled M0V, M0H, M1V, M1H. The type of chip is an 74LS157. The actual connections are listed in the schematic link, Pages "Paula" for the ports, and page "Denise" for where the signals for mouse movement are read by the machine,..

This is all for a Rev 6.2 board, you might well have earlier.

Yes you are correct again the one on the right is the zero drive and what it tries to boot from.. but i have little confidence the disks I'm using.  Most are later 2.05 and later OS expecting disks..  i'm using the mono output for now..  which should show anything that comes out of the RGB port right?  just grayscale?  like if I booted from a lemmings disk (not that i have that game) I'd see everything just in b/w?

Normal for A500 and A2000. Phono composite is grey scale, but colour from RGB port OK.

I haven't tried swapping the drives to see if maybe the other works better?  i have a disk cleaning disk I can pop in there to help insure the heads are clean..  the right drive seems to behave healthy.  sounds good but yea could be sick..  i've used pressured air to blow out dust from around the area and throughout the Box.  Nothing scary came out.. just some acceptable dust bunnies

Not just cleaning, also a little lube on the worm gear that moves the heads across the disk.

Good channel for that stuff (techniques);-

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gadgetuk164+floppy

Well according to the seller the TF cards work like this..   If no 3.1 or newer..  no ram..  no CF card..  and 030 defautls to 7mhz for compatibility..  so yea the card does still "work" without 3.1+ but i figure what's the point if nothing actually improves with it in..  so I'll keep the card out till I replace the rom..  and i have to install the denise scan doubler as well when it arrives

I didn't know about the hot key!  I will try that out tonight.. and swap the disk drives on the chance that left drive might be in better working order..

https://defkey.com/workbench-amigaos-shortcuts

The really funky shortcuts let you flip between running programs.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 14, 2021, 01:33:14 AM
Oh yeah, one other thing you might be interested in is RGB2HDMI, you can fit an A2000 version of that into the video slot. Gives a nice hires HDMI port, no flicker. Doesn't do superhires though.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 14, 2021, 01:02:29 PM
@Pat I have a video toaster unfortunately so that's right out :P

I'll have to test some different mice.  i only tried one, though it was one that works with my A1200.  It's probably just that. 

I see a number of ps/2 to 9pin adapters like this one.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/383611674085?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=383611674085&targetid=1262779893289&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001994&poi=&campaignid=13917593257&mkgroupid=128459893881&rlsatarget=pla-1262779893289&abcId=9300613&merchantid=113781450&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqp-LBhDQARIsAO0a6aI4nEdp1GJnICIgJgGYmT-cQAa_P2HklYz9J30ucAjzSGSKHIClE5AaAnIsEALw_wcB (https://www.ebay.com/itm/383611674085?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=383611674085&targetid=1262779893289&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001994&poi=&campaignid=13917593257&mkgroupid=128459893881&rlsatarget=pla-1262779893289&abcId=9300613&merchantid=113781450&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqp-LBhDQARIsAO0a6aI4nEdp1GJnICIgJgGYmT-cQAa_P2HklYz9J30ucAjzSGSKHIClE5AaAnIsEALw_wcB)

I would feel better using a ps/2 mouse rather than usb just because i could see it being closer to the era.. less voltage expectation..

the 9 pin connectors are healthy.  so i don't think it's a connectivity issue, but i'll have to troubleshoot further

I have a 6.2 rev board.  So that also makes me feel more confident its the mouse not the motherboard.

Cool glad to know the visuals are 1:1 in all situations with composite (except grayscale)

Yea i'll take the drives out and give a good cleaning.  Lord knows they have earned it! 

Thanks for those shortcuts.. i've never used any of this even back when i was an exclusive user of the amiga.. heh.  :)    the more you know! 
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 14, 2021, 11:57:26 PM
I see a number of ps/2 to 9pin adapters like this one.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/383611674085?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=383611674085&targetid=1262779893289&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001994&poi=&campaignid=13917593257&mkgroupid=128459893881&rlsatarget=pla-1262779893289&abcId=9300613&merchantid=113781450&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqp-LBhDQARIsAO0a6aI4nEdp1GJnICIgJgGYmT-cQAa_P2HklYz9J30ucAjzSGSKHIClE5AaAnIsEALw_wcB (https://www.ebay.com/itm/383611674085?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=383611674085&targetid=1262779893289&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001994&poi=&campaignid=13917593257&mkgroupid=128459893881&rlsatarget=pla-1262779893289&abcId=9300613&merchantid=113781450&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqp-LBhDQARIsAO0a6aI4nEdp1GJnICIgJgGYmT-cQAa_P2HklYz9J30ucAjzSGSKHIClE5AaAnIsEALw_wcB)

I would feel better using a ps/2 mouse rather than usb just because i could see it being closer to the era.. less voltage expectation..
Don't use one of those adapters! That's to use a PS/2 mouse on a PC's 9-pin serial port. The Amiga's 9-pin ports are not serial ports. Electrically, they're completely different. That adapter won't work and it might even damage something on the Amiga, so avoid, avoid avoid.

You need an adapter designed for the Amiga. The Micromys V5 (https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/shop/product/micromys-v5.html) is supposed to be a good one for PS/2, although I don't have any personal experience with it. The fact your existing USB adapter doesn't work is concerning and could indicate a problem on the motherboard. But first try other mice and adapters. Hopefully it's just a random compatibility problem.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 15, 2021, 02:03:19 AM
Good call.

I thought they were trying to use a Playstation controller as a mouse or something.  :'(
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 15, 2021, 03:36:07 AM
yea understood about adapter.. figured as much.. was just checking.  no one would make amiga ps/2 adapters if existing pc adapters worked..  still pretty common.. 

so at this point i'm pretty sure it must be the fuse..  so i'm going to see about troubleshooting it and getting the fuse replaced..  i do need to first find out what pins have voltage and do a basic multimeter check.  if anyone knows which pins to check against i'd appreciate the tip! (ha! see what i did there?)

I need to take my box into a local repair guy to replace the varta.. i could probably do that myself but now that i know this fuse needs changing it just makes it that much better.. i'd rather pay someone more skilled with a soldering iron locally..   he's reasonable.  probably $40-50..   he's installed various composite mods for me for the same price.. and i'd rather do this than ship it at this point.. 

I can confirm as well that at least the L Amiga + arrow keys moves the cursor around as well..  so basically i need to service the two floppy drives, replace the fuse for the mouse.. i do wish i knew what caused the fuse to pop in the first place..  that bothers me some..  just because i don't want it to just pop again.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 15, 2021, 03:50:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jz_UrKJKxM this was a nice video.. but there's also this video showing a shortcut (basically leaving the old fuse) which i see is pragmatic but i must say i kinda prefer doing the full replacement..  will have to check with my guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syDCZh7U_XM
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Pat the Cat on October 15, 2021, 03:05:02 PM
Well... if you're not getting +5V on the connector, fuse F1 does indeed look like the cause.

A logic probe helps a lot diagnosing which pins are high, low or changing. Much more accurate than a multimeter.

All Amiga ports except the phono connectors for video and audio have a power pin, that's why you have to be careful to plug in things that are "Amiga compatible" with the power off.

Ideally. I daresay people have come a cropper before with 2 player games and switching out the mouse for a 2nd joystick. Although joysticks usually don't need power, maybe it's only an issue for controllers that do need power.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 15, 2021, 03:50:00 PM
if the CIA chip were bad could this cause no 5v?  I'm trying to pre-diagnose the issue before I take it to my guy who's not an amiga technician, but knows his way around a computer for sure, just makes the work quicker / more effective.. 

logic probe?  oh i see, i've never seen one of those before, just googled.  interesting.  I'll have to look into getting one of these.  I figured one of the pins has a constant +5 volt on it standard.. like pin 1 or something.. i just didn't want to start poking around with metal while on.. and zorch something..

So it's possible that a passive mouse like a ball mouse might actually work? 
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 15, 2021, 05:38:38 PM
 This (http://amiga.serveftp.net/JumpyMouse.html) might help, although it’s geared toward the 4000. The site is run by @Castellen, a user here and a master of Amiga repair knowledge.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 15, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
which pin is pin 7?  thanks for that link!  definitely good but i'm no good at reading diagrams at least in relation to how they read looking at the db9 is it:

1  2  3  4  5
  6  7  8  9

?
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: Matt_H on October 16, 2021, 01:48:32 AM
which pin is pin 7?  thanks for that link!  definitely good but i'm no good at reading diagrams at least in relation to how they read looking at the db9 is it:

1  2  3  4  5
  6  7  8  9

?
Yes, that matches the pinout shown in the manual.
Title: Re: IDE CDROM questions for TF536 with A2000.
Post by: part12studios on October 16, 2021, 10:07:38 PM
awesome yea made the most sense but maybe it could have been say:

1  3  5  7  9
  2  4  6  8

Thanks for confirming.  I'll be taking it apart soon.  My downstairs area has been a mess and recent family activities kept me from cleaning things for the A2000 to have a responsible work area..  but I'll open it up asap to get some readings.