Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: Blizz1220 on April 09, 2015, 11:18:08 AM
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... and are working hard to create compelling new hardware :roflmao:
http://www.commodoresmart.com/
Since they claim to be SMART(tm) this should be fun at least :)
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Uk company as well . interesting
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Wow, android phones.... :hammer:
So we will see two (revived) companies, who both once revolutionised computing in their own way, battling each other in the margins of the market, Palm vs Commodore.. :angry:
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Either this "company" ripped off this industrial designer's fantasy Commodore 64 phone mock-up images:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/02/a-commodore-64-smartphone-is-what-your-retrocomputing-soul-craves/
or this is a fake site put up by that very same industrial designer to showcase his fantasy phone.
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Or.. somebody actually retrieved the rights to build a phone conform the design and also bought commodore trademarks...
At least we have another enjoyable chapter in the Commodore soap... sit back and enjoy (the popcorn).
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Popcorn indeed. Amiga-news.de has more (http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-04-00018-EN.html) on this.
They changed the logo again, too. I think the previous iteration of Commodore italicized it, this time "ommodore" is aligned with the middle of the C instead of flush with the bottom. I wonder if this is just someone being "creative" or if there's a legal reason.
Either way: an Android phone with some Commodore inspired stylings. Yawn. It reminds me more of Commodore's forays into the PC clone market than any of their "real" systems. Gonna need some far more exciting software for me to be interested. How about Sailfish?
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This company is registered at the same address:
http://www.londonpresence.com/about-us/
Basically a forwarding company. Commodore Smart could be based anywhere!
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... and are working hard to create compelling new hardware :roflmao:
http://www.commodoresmart.com/
Since they claim to be SMART(tm) this should be fun at least :)
and here is a new amiga!, enjoy!. :)
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Amiga-Sentio-BR-Series-27-All_115005421.html
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Okay , scam confirmed , thank you all :)
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Okay , scam confirmed , thank you all :)
This is what happens when Bill.MCe are licencing our brand "amiga" to any who can pay.
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Okay , scam confirmed , thank you all :)
I've often wondered if the iContain deal was just a shell game to get Barry to cough up some extra money. If you remember CUSA originally only had exlusive rights to make Amiga branded all in one keyboard computers and later Barry was saying that he had a license that granted exclusive rights to Amiga branded computers.
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No idea what that "All rights reserved" means.
http://www.commodorecorp.com/ should hold C=
trademark.
Looking at their site tells what they do with it
just try to browse.
EDIT:
This is the company that designed it :
http://givingshape.blogspot.com/2015/02/commodore-smart-new-concept.html
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Because what the world needs, is another smartphone running Android.
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I vote we just get a sticker making setup and start sticking the boing ball on everything. I want some 'Amiga' Tires on my car.
I agree with Matt_H, at least put Sailfish on it or something. It isn't like there aren't already a billion crappy android devices.
slaapliedje
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I think there is branding issue with that. I wont be surprise if the worthless Commodore international sues their asses. My problem with Commodore International is that they are not doing anything with the brand name. I think it get silly on people trying to revive the name. It don't even have the proper trademark either. If they going to use the Commodore trademark they have to get permission from Commodore International.
If I was only into programming and electronics I could make a off the shelf computer. LOL I could put some fake badges on it LOL
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No idea what that "All rights reserved" means.
http://www.commodorecorp.com/ should hold C=
trademark.
Looking at their site tells what they do with it
just try to browse.
EDIT:
This is the company that designed it :
http://givingshape.blogspot.com/2015/02/commodore-smart-new-concept.html
It looks pretty but it is just another Android phone to me. I'm looking for new hardware and have been buying books on ARM processors so my plan is to be a producer and not a consumer unless I am buying raw tech. The maker and D.I.Y. movement has more going on right now so join the maker movement.
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That's perhaps the most hideous looking smart phone I've seen in years.
And I say that as someone who owned a Blackberry Storm, lol.
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The funny thing is that the designer of this phone says he based it on the look of the C64. I don't see that at all....maybe there are some elements of the Commodore tank mouse, but thats more connected with the Amiga than the C64.
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I think I'll stick with the Galaxy Mega.
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Bad business move. Why christen your company with the name of a failed enterprise? That's like naming a new cruise ship the Titanic.
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Bad business move. Why christen your company with the name of a failed enterprise? That's like naming a new cruise ship the Titanic.
They want to walk on water. Slowly sink to the bottom of the sea.
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Bad business move. Why christen your company with the name of a failed enterprise? That's like naming a new cruise ship the Titanic.
There was an Aussie billionaire planning to build a replica Titanic but I just read that it is on hold because he is having financial difficulties.
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Bad business move. Why christen your company with the name of a failed enterprise? That's like naming a new cruise ship the Titanic.
They've already got a bit of free publicity amongst some die-hards..
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There was an Aussie billionaire planning to build a replica Titanic but I just read that it is on hold because he is having financial difficulties.
He won a seat at the last Federal election and is now a sitting MP.
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The website is down already. I didn't even finish my popcorn...
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The website is down already. I didn't even finish my popcorn...
I guess there was legal threat against them. That's why it got taken down so fast.
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Comoodore?
I thought the Gateway era was almost legend by now?
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I guess there was legal threat against them. That's why it got taken down so fast.
Is the site back up??
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The website never went down, it's still there :-)
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They are going to be releasing a C=64 inspired phone. What a joke. There is even one called pet ;-)
Just check out their FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/cbm.commodore/videos/1600675900172788/
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Yes , and it's plain black with Android nothing like the ugly
Amiga mouse design but it looks just like regular phone with
C64 Logo engraved on it.
More interesting is to see will it see the light of day considering
they decided to ignore whomever claims Commodore trademark
and are happily going along.I don't think they will make anything
remotely interesting ever though.
Someone who has a Facebook could tell them that handheld C64
like Gameboy would probably be a lot more interesting.
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I honestly would buy the phone...put a decent camera on it and I'm in... Just carries my love for retro stuff.
Rich
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So...this isn't that company that's selling bogus C=64s made from old intel i7 parts? I need a score sheet to keep track of all the Amiga and Commodore entities!:confused:
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@thread
Opposition filed (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#766183)
more (http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-08-00032-EN.html)
#6
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This is Barry interesting.
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@number6
so then the notion that these guys had permission to use the commodore marks is now finally refuted?
edit: never mind. from a press release (http://www.ukprwire.com/Detailed/Technology/Infringement_COMMODORE_trademark_by_CBM_ltd_UK_358550.shtml):
Recently, various computer magazines and other news agencies announced that Commodore Business Machines Limited in the United Kingdom is planning to market one or more mobile telephones under the COMMODORE trademark.
C=Holdings B.V. hereby announces that it has not granted any rights to CBM for making use of the COMMODORE trademark, nor that C=Holdings B.V. has any involvement in the development and marketing of its products. C=Holdings B.V. will vigorously defend its rights in this matter.
quelle surprise.
-- eliyahu
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:laughing:
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This is Barry interesting.
What do you mean by that?
http://www.zdnet.com/article/barry-altman-ceo-of-commodore-usa-passes-at-age-63/
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Bad business move. Why christen your company with the name of a failed enterprise? That's like naming a new cruise ship the Titanic.
I can't wait to get the new Colecovision phone.
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If people are hell bent on showing their "Commodore patriotism", save yourself the trouble and just get one of the new Moto phones with "Commodore" engraved on the back case cover. The new Moto G and Moto X are terrific phones and the lower end model is not only cheaper, but about 2x the phone this hokey "Commodore" phone is. Remember, this phone these guys are trying to flog you is just a rebadged Chinese phone that you can find online for half the price, but hey, if you want to pay 2x for a low end phone for a Commodore screened on logo (that's optimistic, I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually a decal/sticker anyways), she's a free market world.
A Moto phone with Commodore engraved on the back is about as legit as this C= phone is, it seems, lol.
http://tinypic.com/r/10hreqv/8
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Yes , I agree with Duce.
What I want to see out of this is will someone fight Aros ROMS that are
used for emulators and if even older copyright troll company with no
products but much legal expertise will be able to prove they are the
rulers of word "Commodore".
As for the phone I'm pretty sure that someone out there will buy it
(power of mass marketing) and I would be even willing to bet that it
will be sold in more than 200 less than 2000 units.
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There was an Aussie billionaire planning to build a replica Titanic but I just read that it is on hold because he is having financial difficulties.
And now I'm gonna have to think of a new name. Why didn't someone tell me it sank...!
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Domain registered through an Italian registrar and hosted by an Italian company. Admin contact, Massimo Cangiani.
Yeah, looks legit. :laughing:
EDIT: Because of the UK address - no offence meant to the Italians. :P
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I asked the registrar to have a look at the domain name owner. Should be interesting to see what happens. :D
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@eliyahu: :banana:
That’s where things stood until March, when Massimo Canigiani and Carlo Scattolini registered Commodore Business Machines Limited in the UK. The Italian entrepreneurs claim to have acquired rights for the brand and trademark in the mobile industry in 38 countries, including the US.
http://www.wired.com/2015/07/commodore-smartphone/
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Why do we even care? It could just as easily be called the Pepsi Phone, The Mazda Phone or the Communist Party of Chine Phone for all I care.
It's a generic smartphone running Android. Nothing exciting going on here.
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No, it's not exciting, or even vaguely relevant, even. It is just another low end Android phone with a decal or screened logo on it. But...
In a hobby where a lot of people would buy a used roll of bathroom tissue in the name of "supporting Commodore" if it had the Boingball printed on it, it is pretty important to mention potential cash-grabs, esp. when it involves legal issues in regards to licensing. We've had "noble companies" grave robbing the marque for years now, so this isn't anything we haven't seen before. That hasn't kept people from opening their wallets for overpriced, underpowered and questionably licensed stuff before, though.
It's a cheap Android phone - available for a hundred bucks on Alibaba. With a C= logo on it that apparently the sellers never bothered properly licensing.
There was a fair number of people here even on A.org willing to throw $400 at this phone in some vain attempt at retro chicness, or otherwise honoring the memory of a once great company, or simply reliving some of their youth spent with the real C= machines. Whatever the reason, it's pretty important to know that this is just another scam cash grab.
It's a free market. If overpaying for a low end phone to a company that seemingly never did the proper legalwork in regards to trademark licensing gets you off, buy the phone. I'd honestly be curious to see how happy people are with it, because the hardware itself under the "real" name (Orgtec WaPhone) gets paltry reviews at best. I doubt a screened on Chickenlips logs will change that much :)
Me, I'll stick with my new LG G4. My boingball wallpaper and Amiga emulators give me all the Amiga "fix" I need on it, and such things didn't cost me a thin dime past what I paid for the phone ($200 on 2 yr contract, $45 a month contract costs, unlimited text/voice, 10 GB data).
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Trademark application opposed.
https://oami.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/013930276
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Trademark application opposed.
https://oami.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/013930276
LOL. Excellent.
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No, it's not exciting, or even vaguely relevant, even. It is just another low end Android phone with a decal or screened logo on it. But...
In a hobby where a lot of people would buy a used roll of bathroom tissue in the name of "supporting Commodore" if it had the Boingball printed on it, it is pretty important to mention potential cash-grabs, esp. when it involves legal issues in regards to licensing. We've had "noble companies" grave robbing the marque for years now, so this isn't anything we haven't seen before. That hasn't kept people from opening their wallets for overpriced, underpowered and questionably licensed stuff before, though.
It's a cheap Android phone - available for a hundred bucks on Alibaba. With a C= logo on it that apparently the sellers never bothered properly licensing.
There was a fair number of people here even on A.org willing to throw $400 at this phone in some vain attempt at retro chicness, or otherwise honoring the memory of a once great company, or simply reliving some of their youth spent with the real C= machines. Whatever the reason, it's pretty important to know that this is just another scam cash grab.
It's a free market. If overpaying for a low end phone to a company that seemingly never did the proper legalwork in regards to trademark licensing gets you off, buy the phone. I'd honestly be curious to see how happy people are with it, because the hardware itself under the "real" name (Orgtec WaPhone) gets paltry reviews at best. I doubt a screened on Chickenlips logs will change that much :)
Me, I'll stick with my new LG G4. My boingball wallpaper and Amiga emulators give me all the Amiga "fix" I need on it, and such things didn't cost me a thin dime past what I paid for the phone ($200 on 2 yr contract, $45 a month contract costs, unlimited text/voice, 10 GB data).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCBOp-4U8OM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCBOp-4U8OM)
!
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I'm not stopping anyone from buying one, Paulie. I've been called a D*ck, and far worse, today alone. :) My apologies if I am coming off as patronizing to anyone sincerely interested in a "badged" device like this. It's a free market, and all that.
What gets me mostly is news sites like Wired and their original article on this device that read like ad material. Wired should be ashamed of the initial article they wrote on this. A noobie copy intern would have wrote a better researched article.
No one bothered to dig into the fact it *is* a rebadged China phone at 2x+ the price. It's easy to identify what the device actually is, a WaPhone. No one at Wired bothered to check the legality of the license this new company has. No one at Wired bothered to take into account that these guys had already reportedly screwed over a quite well known designer over what was quite frankly (the C64 phone mock up), an abortion of a design. The whole article was linkbait solely written to get all the C= aficionados all worked up and thinking Commodore was back, ready to save the marque and brand and restore the grand hope of The Faithfuls. One of which I am. it was easier for Wired to take the lowbrow clickbait route, and Wired usually isn't too bad in that regard. A bit of a let down is all, and I say that as someone who has subscribed to the print version of the magazine since the first issue 20+ years ago. A subscription I won't be renewing.
It's a low spec phone. If you are after a low to low/mid range at best - specc'ed Android phone, you can get one for $70 off contract that has similar specs from any US carrier. S4's and S5's are even going for free these days with a contract on my own carrier, and despite the age, far better devices. These C= phones are what I'd consider "burner phone" specs for $400.
Just do your homework and look past the write up on Wired, is all I suggest. if the device suits your needs and is something you feel you want to support, the $400 cost or nothing I say is going to stop anyone. But I do believe in truth in advertising, and it's my own opinion the device and company as a whole is just another one of the cash-grabs we're unfortunately so accustomed to in this scene.
I just don't like seeing anyone taken for a ride due to fond memories of their computing youth over what's really just a $400 screened on (decal maybe?) logo when you can buy a far better device for half the price, and in fact, you can buy the same phone sans Chickenlips logo for $100.
Anyone that does get one, please do post a review. Do your homework on MediaTek chips before buying, though. I say that as someone who's currently using a MediaTek chipped phone (Alcatel, mind you, not an Orgtec) as a paperweight.
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@Duce
Well if you got a lot of complaints that means you must be
doing something right :roflmao:
I have a friend who is journalist and many a times he would
write inspiring articles about places he never even visited.
Journalists usual response to these kind of things is inviting
person(s) of importance to an interview and if you have two
sides both will claim they are the only one right , reading
between the lines doesn't help there.
There was no confirmation of Aros team helping this in any
way on forums and apart from authors of emulators to be
used these new people declare to be C64 and Amiga fans but
fail to show much facts for it apart from "Commodore is cool -
retweet this".
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@thread
Cloanto on CBM/Amiga Copyrights
Cloanto confirms that it has not granted any rights for making use of CBM/Amiga copyrights in recently announced smartphones.
Aug. 16, 2015 / PRZen / LAS VEGAS -- Cloanto Corporation is the holder of the international copyrights for all copyrighted and copyrightable works created by the original Commodore/Amiga companies up to 1993, as recorded at the United States Copyright Office. These include ROM, operating system, boot code, application software, documentation, multimedia and other components as included in licensed packages such as Amiga Forever and C64 Forever.
Recently, some publications and news agencies reported that "Commodore Business Machines Ltd" (United Kingdom) might be selling, planning to sell or collecting money for orders of smartphone devices that claim to include software emulations of the PET, C64 and Amiga computers.
For the avoidance of doubt, Cloanto hereby confirms that it has not granted any rights to said UK company for bundling or otherwise distributing the original, copyrighted ROM and OS software code used by the PET, C64 and Amiga systems and their emulations.
etc.
Source (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2645462)
#6
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News from Digital Journal
http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2645462
"Aug. 16, 2015 / PRZen / LAS VEGAS -- Cloanto Corporation is the holder of the international copyrights for all copyrighted and copyrightable works created by the original Commodore/Amiga companies up to 1993, as recorded at the United States Copyright Office. These include ROM, operating system, boot code, application software, documentation, multimedia and other components as included in licensed packages such as Amiga Forever and C64 Forever."
Click on link above to go to complete article.
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@thread
etc.
Source (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/2645462)
#6
noone needs for that material from Cloanto...
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This is turning into a nice soap :D
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMecDaRW8AAiBoN.jpg)
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@thread
looks like the tech 'press' is starting to pick up the story. via number6 at AWN (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0#766561):
It seems that the Italian bloke who wanted to release a Commodore phone might be in a little hot water with people who own the trademark.
Italian Massimo Canigiani declared himself as the new owner of the Commodore trademark. His newly established British based "Commodore Business Machines Ltd" was going to sell Commodore Smartphones to retro enthusiasts.
It now appears that Canigiani didn't actually acquire the existing trademark, he simply tried to have a new one registered. The application is available publicly in the European trademark database but now it is listed as "application opposed."
http://www.techeye.net/mobiles-2/commodore-phone-in-trademark-war
-- eliyahu
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@thread
looks like the tech 'press' is starting to pick up the story. via number6 at AWN (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0#766561):
http://www.techeye.net/mobiles-2/commodore-phone-in-trademark-war
-- eliyahu
it is either becoming a soap opera or mudslinging
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@OlafS3
it sure seems that way. at first i figured something wasn't quite right since i couldn't imagine paolo being involved with something that wasn't on the 'up and up,' but then we have his statement (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0#766497) on AWN, cloanto's sudden insertion into the whole thing, and... i don't know what to think.
if nothing else it shows that there are folks who feel the AROS kickstart replacement ROMs are solid enough for commercial purposes. that's a good sign, at least. :)
-- eliyahu
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@OlafS3
it sure seems that way. at first i figured something wasn't quite right since i couldn't imagine paolo being involved with something that wasn't on the 'up and up,' but then we have his statement (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0#766497) on AWN, cloanto's sudden insertion into the whole thing, and... i don't know what to think.
if nothing else it shows that there are folks who feel the AROS kickstart replacement ROMs are solid enough for commercial purposes. that's a good sign, at least. :)
-- eliyahu
one benefit at last :) and free of copyright... I hate all those "closed" or "copyright" fuss
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Also the fact that some of those press releases have
legal aspects to them but most people try to simplify
them and just want to know "who is Commodore now and
what have they been doing all these years".
Regardless of the phone I like CBM as a company now if
for nothing else a moral principle.It all came down to how
people react to "legal" aspects of things.Some asked for
permissions (where there was no need) , others dropped
projects.If Commodore Corp said they will sue you if you
make T-Shirt you might decide not to but what would you
do if they wanted your house and car instead ? Would you
just hand over keys to whomever ?
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Also the fact that some of those press releases have
legal aspects to them but most people try to simplify
them and just want to know "who is Commodore now and
what have they been doing all these years".
Regardless of the phone I like CBM as a company now if
for nothing else a moral principle.It all came down to how
people react to "legal" aspects of things.Some asked for
permissions (where there was no need) , others dropped
projects.If Commodore Corp said they will sue you if you
make T-Shirt you might decide not to but what would you
do if they wanted your house and car instead ? Would you
just hand over keys to whomever ?
I Agree.!
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on amigaworld someone speculates about that Cloanto tries to hinder the commercial use of Aros rom replacements
my answer:
Reverse engineering is permitted, there is even a windows clone reverse engineering windows and Microsoft certainly has good attorneys. They will never come through with it if they try to go against use of aros rom replacements. But it can be that they want to stay exclusive resource for commercial amiga emulation and are not happy. Perhaps others will become aware of Aros rom replacements then too and noone needing Amiga forever anymore.
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Reverse engineering is allowed in some countries while it's now
allowed in others.Also , depends on what you are reverse engineering ,
if it's patented or copyrighted in US than it's now allowed but was
known to happen.
Fact that Microsoft didn't sue doesn't mean it won't if Windows clone
ever becomes a threat.Press misquoted (as usual) what Cloanto had
to say.Cloanto said that it has nothing to do with CBM and it's emulation
offering.
Important to notice here is that emulators on smartphone are not easily
confused with Amiga or C64 Forever nor are in direct competition.
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Reverse engineering is allowed in some countries while it's now
allowed in others.Also , depends on what you are reverse engineering ,
if it's patented or copyrighted in US than it's now allowed but was
known to happen.
Fact that Microsoft didn't sue doesn't mean it won't if Windows clone
ever becomes a threat.Press misquoted (as usual) what Cloanto had
to say.Cloanto said that it has nothing to do with CBM and it's emulation
offering.
Important to notice here is that emulators on smartphone are not easily
confused with Amiga or C64 Forever nor are in direct competition.
I have just searched for the original text... so it can be seen so. The only thing I wonder why at all (at least amiga related)
the situation around the C64 roms seems even more confusing and there are no reimplementations/replacements
LAS VEGAS - Aug. 15, 2015 - PRLog (http://www.prlog.org) -- Cloanto Corporation is the holder of the international copyrights for all copyrighted and copyrightable works created by the original Commodore/Amiga companies up to 1993, as recorded at the United States Copyright Office. These include ROM, operating system, boot code, application software, documentation, multimedia and other components as included in licensed packages such as Amiga Forever (http://www.amigaforever.com) and C64 Forever (http://www.c64forever.com).
Recently, some publications and news agencies reported that "Commodore Business Machines Ltd" (United Kingdom) might be selling, planning to sell or collecting money for orders of smartphone devices that claim to include software emulations of the PET, C64 and Amiga computers.
For the avoidance of doubt, Cloanto hereby confirms that it has not granted any rights to said UK company for bundling or otherwise distributing the original, copyrighted ROM and OS software code used by the PET, C64 and Amiga systems and their emulations.
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To emulate C64 you need BASIC.ROM and KERNAL.ROM at
least so it's pretty much same situation.Some emulators had
replacements (even going so far to state that these files won't
work on real machine for legal reasons).
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on amigaworld someone speculates about that Cloanto tries to hinder the commercial use of Aros rom replacements
my answer:
Reverse engineering is permitted, there is even a windows clone reverse engineering windows and Microsoft certainly has good attorneys. They will never come through with it if they try to go against use of aros rom replacements. But it can be that they want to stay exclusive resource for commercial amiga emulation and are not happy. Perhaps others will become aware of Aros rom replacements then too and noone needing Amiga forever anymore.
i seriously doubt michael would object to the use of the AROS ROMs. more likely the issue is that cloanto don't know what will be included in the software image of the phone and they wanted to clarify that any purported emulation capability of either the amiga or C64 would have to be done without their intellectual property (unless licensed). it's probably just down to a lack of communication... at least i hope.
-- eliyahu
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i seriously doubt michael would object to the use of the AROS ROMs. more likely the issue is that cloanto don't know what will be included in the software image of the phone and they wanted to clarify that any purported emulation capability of either the amiga or C64 would have to be done without their intellectual property (unless licensed). it's probably just down to a lack of communication... at least i hope.
-- eliyahu
I hope so too... up to now I have a positive view of them. Perhaps really a misinterpretation
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@thread
Podcast (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#769210)
#6
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@thread
Paolo confirms the phones have started shipping (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0)
#6
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@thread
Paolo confirms the phones have started shipping (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40391&forum=2&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0)
#6
And can anyone confirm which networks these phones are compatible with??
Rich