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Offline KingTuttTopic starter

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AmigaOne Gaming
« on: February 12, 2003, 07:25:52 AM »
I have been thinking long and hard about the prospects of AmigaOne gaming in this day and age for quite some time now, and I really need to offer food for thought to us remaining Amigans. My greatest fear being that no one really knows how to approach amiga gaming for this day and age or which direction it is to take. Do we even know what amiga gaming means these days? What is representative of the Amiga gaming scene in the 21st century? Do we really need to clone everything that moves in PeeCee land? Have we really become this insecure as Amigans gamers of late? Have we indeed lost our way?

Well this is one of many propositions floating around in my crazy head of late....

We all know that AmigaOS4 will be coming out sometime this quarter, and PC gaming is now stepping into yet another level (ie DirectX 9 gaming heralded by the new 3Dmark2003 today and Doom III later this year) Can't future amiga game devs try to focus on making vertex and pixel shading support for all games a bare minimum.

If you look at it from the perspective of attracting future game devs and gamers alike, AmigaOS4 really has to make Amiga gaming, compelling enough as it was in the late 80s early 90s. Now there is a lot involved with trying to set gaming standards in a platform that hasn't even been established yet. But given that the support for video cards will be somewhat limited to but a few brands, namely Matrox and ATi, it would be really wonderful to see DirectX 8 level of games, as the trend and standard for AmigaOne titles.

Amiga h/w won't be dragged behind by a large customer base still clinging onto old and ageing nVidia DX6 or DX7 h/w. There will be no GeForce MX support in the short term or even long term. And really, anyone getting these cards in the interest of eventual support on OS4, should be wary of wanting anything more than basic 2D functions.

PC gamers in general are very conscious of the fact that PC games take upto 18 months to catch up to new h/w technology and this usually only amounts to less than a dozen titles in a given year actually incorporating full support of the new features. Amiga should capitalise on this and try to release games supporting newer h/w technology quicker albeit on a smaller scale. ATi is a wonderful company for Amiga to embrace in its campaign to lure gamers and potential users back to its platform (heck, just look at it giving nVidia a nightmare as the undisputed king in gfx with the up and coming 9900 Pro). I would hazard a guess that most A1 buyers aren't getting anything less than an ATi 8500 for their Amiga systems. Its only natural, amigans always want the very best. And making ATi 8500 level of gfx the presumed entry level, could work wonders in the gaming potential for each A1 machine.

It can be little factors like this that would make Amiga a platform to consider. If enough "Amiga only games" are released that are making full use of ATi's pixel and vertex shaders, in a clever way (meaning in a very efficient low overhead manner) then gaming could be very viable and attractive. You need only look at the Nintendo gamecube, which runs at approx 300mhz and utlises 40mb RAM, or less? yet it can render gfx quite beautifully, due to its efficient use of its flipper gfx chipset and RISC architecture.

Another advantage of A1 systems is the almost uniform architecture across the board, software devs won't have to account for a multitude of configurations and architectures when designing software. We can cut out the 2 or 3 generations of h/w that PC devs still have to account for. Also DirectX9 ATi cards could be supported and implemented into the next gen amiga games presumably much sooner than its PeeCee counterparts, and at greater frequency (meaning that many small devs can jump on the Nova 5 bandwagon as soon as support for 9500/9700/9900 series arrives to amiga). Hopefully Warp 3D Nova 5 will be Amiga's holy grail into getting back on track and current.

One last thing that I can't stress enough, is that being Amiga, we don't have to abide by the very rigid and unimaginative gaming genres that are deeply entrenched in the PeeCee gaming scene. I mean c'mon guys, as Amigans we are naturally more creative and inherent risktakers right? I'm sure that being a much smaller community, we can risk making completely new and innovative genres that might even challenge the long standing genres that are so bland and lacking in soul this day and age in PeeCeeland. Well, we can only hope. But I still dream of a day when we can break away from the shackles of uninspiring FPS, RTS and RPGs, which have been played to death. It's like someone releasing pong and there being 50 different variants, each with nothing more to add, except a different set of colors or sounds, well thats PeeCee's for ya I guess. Where is the Amiga inspired Lemmings of the 21st century? lol!

I welcome all your thoughts on this matter. Let us as Amigans shape our gaming future on this new A1/OS4 platform. We really must incorporate the latest technologies to our advantage and shock the world with our ingenuity as in 84 (A1000s launch - were so little did so much). We can't afford to be considered a has-been system with dated software and games, even before being given a chance. Now I hope there is enough incentive to roll out NOVA 5 quicker now.

Thankyou if you read that whole rant from yours truly, I really needed to get that off my chest, I hope you feel a similar yearning to making Amiga a serious contender again - as Amigans the very least we can do is give our ideas out freely and hopefully  throw a spanner in the works for those dedicated OS4 Hyperion guys to think about

/end rant
If I said I was the best you would think I am boasting. But if I said I was not, then you KNOW I am lying! ~Bruce Lee.
 

Offline Helgis75

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2003, 09:36:35 AM »
That was a very beatiful and emotional post of AmigaOne gaming, Kingtutt :-) . I don't think you need to worry. The AmigaOne will have state-of-the-art games and all.

As you said, Warp3D NOVA should be ready by not too long, and more support for the ATI Radeon-line will certainly arrive, too, as well as getting 24-bit AHI-drivers supporting SB Audigy and TerraTec Aureon-line of audio cards. Also remember that IBM and Motorola are heavily serious into further develop the PowerPC RISC CPU-technology! While IBM are further improving the G3 CPUs and developing 64-bit PowerPC RISC CPUs (the 970), Motorola is further improving the G4 CPUs, slowly going toward the next step, the PowerPC G5, so this is very interesting actually, and very promising! Great to see that Motorola is back in track to seriously pushing the PowerPC-technology forward, as IBM is doing.. :-)

Soon Mai Logic is also ready to release the Articia P supporting 133Mhz 64-bit PCI-X bus, 333Mhz DDR-SDRAM and 4x AGP, so during the end of 2003, we may see the next production-run of AmigaOnes with Articia P, replacing the bug-fixed Articia S. Alongside this, Mai Logic is also continuing development of two completely next generation PPC-controller chips named Articia MP and Magicia family. These next-generation controllers will support DDR2 and 8x AGP, as Pam Han told me in an email around september last year..Therefore, don't worry. :-)

Again, you wrote a very beatiful post, KingTutt!  :-)
Helgis - AMIGA DEFINITELY makes it all possible!!!
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2003, 11:17:09 AM »
Don't forget the 2D functions... I think that they are still important. I'd like to see the graphics.library adding the p96 functions and support for hardware functions like alpha channel etc... in another thread someone told us that functions like BliBitMapMask() are not hardware accelerated. That's no good for 2D games. I agree with you: Nova5 is a priority after OS4 is released (but don't worry much about this, Hyperion is a company were the love to make games and surely it will be released soon). I'd like to see better 2D support. For example doublebuffer, transparency, better blitter support... many of this things are posible using SDL... I guess that once OS4 is released the author of WarpSDL will release an OS4 version, and I think that it will be quite fast :-)

@Helgis75
I don't think that we see new AmigaOne models with Articia P so soon, but it would be great :-)
Hey, and Pegasos too...
let's hope Eyetech sells lots of AmigaOnes and Hyperion decides that the market is mature enough to release a usb dongle to run OS4 on the Pegasos
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: Club de Usuarios de Amiga de Zaragoza (CUAZ)
 

Offline ksk

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2003, 11:26:03 AM »
"let's hope Eyetech sells lots of AmigaOnes and Hyperion decides that the market is mature enough to release a usb dongle to run OS4 on the Pegasos..."

Okay, here's some freaky ideas:

How about the AOS4 enabler ROM fitted on a PCI card. (AmigaForever10/Umiliator2 users would also love it on the x86)

Or AOS4 enabler + megarraysocket on a PCI card...

hmmm... AOS4 enabler ROM + ATI Radeon8500 chip on a AGP card would be too pricey...

Would it be possible to implement a DIMM module with the ROM dongle ?????


Why? ... well, because the USB dongle would be just too simple... ;-)
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2003, 11:37:50 AM »
@ksk
I like the idea of adding functionality to the dongle. For example, a usb dongle that allowed you to connect Amiga floppy drives (or a floppy disk device like the one someone was doing to use with Amithlon), that would help people with Pegasos/LinuxOnes to read their old Amiga software and it would be more interesting than pirating it. As pegasos only has 3 pcis I wouldn't put the dongle in a pci card...
On the other hand if someone released an AGA pci card with included monitor switcher it would be a good idea to include the OS4 dongle there :-D
To add functionality it may include a BT878/848 to be able to watch TV and view in a window the AGA output if you want.
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: Club de Usuarios de Amiga de Zaragoza (CUAZ)
 

Offline ruffneck

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2003, 03:55:20 PM »
I believe if there is place in market for brand new hardware (A1) then there should be potential buyers for brand new powerful software  too.
Amigaonly games that would beat PC ones need huge development teams, im not sure Amiga community can afford them. But if A1will get some attention and support from some serious sw developing companies then nowdays PC gamers and companies would see A1 as an alternative to PC. But to make it happen, A1 has to be as up to date as possible (next generation ppc cpu and Warp3D in same level as directx9). But it's not impossible, after all these years A1/os4 itsself seems like miracle:)
 

Offline Calken

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2003, 04:14:22 PM »
I remember many years ago deciding that when I was older I was gonna be a games programmer.  I think it was back in the time when one person could actually write a full game on their own, utilising the 512K well and filling the entire floppy.  As years passed it became more apparent that it was going to happen, so I settlers for the old degree in Software Development and started my career.

Now, my head is full of so many languages and techniques that the idea feels plausable once again.  Addiction has always been the key to a good game.  Suddenly all the knowledge of client/server architecture, data security, and program flow is far more important that getting the hardware to give as good as it gets (in some cases anyway.)

I always fancied the idea of building a truly data driven, fully object component base that could be reused time and time again.  All games, irrespective of genre, could be interoperable.

I don't know the exact point of this message is but...
If only computers were still graded by the number of colours they could show...
 

Offline Nick

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2003, 04:21:53 PM »
FLIGH SIMULATIONS! Give me! :cry:
 

Offline ikir

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2003, 06:22:09 PM »
A big and interesting post. Congratulations KingTutt
 

Offline Desolator

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2003, 06:34:17 PM »
So..uh...how many of you are creating games for the Amiga right now? I got two projects in their design-phases. The first one is a AlienBreed-looking game, but with 3d animations after each level and some other neat things... and the other one is a extremely massive, huge, gargantuan, titanic, behemothlike Utima 1-looking RPG. Same graphics as Ultima 1 but the game world is enormous, crammed full with monsters, NPCs, cities, vehicles(!), weather phenomens, treasures, castles, fair ladies in distress... :-D So maybe the graphics isn't real eyecandy and certainly won't show off the A1's capabilites but graphics doesn't make a game complete. Funfactor and the passion laid into the game adds to it..

but these two games are as said only in design-phase. I only got the 3D animations somewhat ready and the rest..well..it's done when it's done and right now it ain't done.  :-D  
// Amiga - The computer for the creative mind.
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Offline KingTuttTopic starter

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2003, 11:19:54 PM »
Thankyou guys, I didn't really think there were many of you here that sympathised with this.

Anyway, I guess my biggest gripe these days is the cookie cutter pc games market. We all look forward to playing titles like UT2K3 for months, only to have a few hits of it and toss it onto the evergrowing pile of FPS clones.

Where are the groundbreaking titles of yesteryear? The 21st century version of It came from the Desert, Wings and Supercars. How about Marble Madness or Speedball 2 for 2004? Or the irrepressible Turrican series or Defender of the Crown and Alienbreed. These are the games that will set apart Amiga gaming once more! These are the games that need to be high on our priority list for remakes.

But for now, we can only dream.
If I said I was the best you would think I am boasting. But if I said I was not, then you KNOW I am lying! ~Bruce Lee.
 

Offline JoannaK

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2003, 11:40:43 PM »
I'm currently tinkering about making some AI/game logic for 2d/3d games. But I have this problem on selecting right tools. I have no interest on C(orC++) and I really would like to start with this PC (windowse) before receiveing any next generation system (Pegasos more likely to be first, but Aone is possibility after OS4 arrives/stabilizes).

So what I'm looking is realtively easy language for prototyping, maximal performance (or 3d glory) is not needed now. But what others there are. Blitz Basic and PureBasic are available to both 68kAMiga and windowse but neither is 100% compatible.  
 

Offline Atheist

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2003, 08:59:30 AM »
I've been going to "Electronics Boutique" for 7 or more years. And what I 've noticed in the last year is that PC game production is on the decline. PS2, xbucks and to a lesser extent Gamecube/GBA are getting all of the titles. I think there are more $$$ to be made off of the "turn tv on/start machine quick" systems, than the ones where turn on power bar, computer (my machine 90 seconds), load cd, possibly hunt through menus,  then start game.

On the AmigaOne, games could autoboot right off of the cd-rom. If the game was previously installed, then the disc would just be there, to tell the computer which game you picked (or floppy, because you can't put in a cd while the power is off, but if the machine is already on, in some other game, you can pick a different disc, then re-boot into that game). It will be faster than 20 seconds for the computer to start. People will like that.

My point originally was, I think the PC games flow is seriously slowing down, this gives us a WINDOWS of opportunity, maybe as big as one year to show that we're about fun and games, as much as SERIOUS SW capable.

Amiga! Let the GAMES begin!
\\"Which would you buy? The Crappy A1200, 15 years out of date... or the Mobile Phone that I have?\\" -- bloodline
So I guess that A500, 600, 1000, 2000, CDTV, CD32, are pure garbage then? Thanks for posting here.
 

Offline yssing

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2003, 09:29:26 AM »
At Flying Paper W are looing into all posibillities.
AOS, MOS, ClassicAOS...
We have a lot of games planned...

Though we can alwasy use some help, from serious developers, or if some wants to be serious.

/Yssing
 

Offline Ami603

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Re: AmigaOne Gaming
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2003, 10:49:47 AM »
@Joanna:
You can try OpenGL options (through Mesa),it works almost without modifications in every system that supports mesa,and one port of Mesa 5.0 (OpenGL specs 1.4) came with OS4,so you can easily port it from windows to another systems almost in 99% without touching the source code,it can run aswell in linux,etc,and will be supported via Warp3D hardware acceleration.
Also from my point of view it is easy to learn and have lots of tutorials,info on the net.
AmigaOne X1000