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Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: the_leander on June 25, 2010, 02:31:33 PM

Title: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 25, 2010, 02:31:33 PM
This one is for my fellow Brits: RISC OS returns on new cheap hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/).

Still early days of course, but the specs are interesting:

720MHz ARM CPU
PowerVR graphics
256Mb of RAM onboard
Ultra small form factor (nano itx or thereabouts).
RISC OS5

Price? £120

Hmm, anyone else here something that sounded like the pin being pulled on a grenade just then? ;)
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: dammy on June 25, 2010, 02:47:09 PM
Quote from: the_leander;567180
This one is for my fellow Brits: RISC OS returns on new cheap hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/).

Still early days of course, but the specs are interesting:

720MHz ARM CPU
PowerVR graphics
256Mb of RAM onboard
Ultra small form factor (nano itx or thereabouts).
RISC OS5

Price? £120

Hmm, anyone else here something that sounded like the pin being pulled on a grenade just then? ;)


Yeah, EFIKA-MX would probably be a better deal then the Beagle once you add in items to make them comparable.  $300 EFIKA-MX netbook isn't that much more really.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Crumb on June 25, 2010, 02:47:32 PM
@the_leander

I think some people in our market should learn from it.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: drHirudo on June 25, 2010, 03:02:08 PM
Quote from: the_leander;567180
This one is for my fellow Brits: RISC OS returns on new cheap hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/).

Still early days of course, but the specs are interesting:

720MHz ARM CPU
PowerVR graphics
256Mb of RAM onboard
Ultra small form factor (nano itx or thereabouts).
RISC OS5

Price? £120

Hmm, anyone else here something that sounded like the pin being pulled on a grenade just then? ;)

Cool, I was interested in RISCOS some weeks ago. I am Amiga user, but for £120 I would give it a try. Is RISCOS included in the price?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Crom00 on June 25, 2010, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: drHirudo;567189
Cool, I was interested in RISCOS some weeks ago. I am Amiga user, but for £120 I would give it a try. Is RISCOS included in the price?




Compared to $1500 pounds that Amiga will cost you....

OUCH...that stings.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: gazgod on June 25, 2010, 03:07:44 PM
There was one of these boards at VCF, as riscos is not and operating system I know much about (school was still BBC's and college was mainly 286s and XTs) I didn't make much of it. But my buddy who grew up with BBC/Acorn was very impressed.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: jorkany on June 25, 2010, 03:08:38 PM
Price? £120

Clearly intended only for developers and power users!
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 25, 2010, 03:10:42 PM
Quote from: drHirudo;567189
Cool, I was interested in RISCOS some weeks ago. I am Amiga user, but for £120 I would give it a try. Is RISCOS included in the price?


Free is a magic number (http://www.riscosopen.org/content/).
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Amiga_Nut on June 25, 2010, 03:17:56 PM
I wasn't interested in the OS or serious applications but the actual Archimedes was one hell of a nice machine potentially for games. Due to hardly any sales not many talented coders risked time and effort on the machine but Zarch is an absolute classic and still looks good today with it's 256 colour depth cued graphics.

So my question is can I run Zarch on this board or just serious apps like Artisan?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: drHirudo on June 25, 2010, 03:22:26 PM
Quote from: Crom00;567190
Compared to $1500 pounds that Amiga will cost you....

OUCH...that stings.


Why do you care how I spend MY money?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on June 25, 2010, 03:25:23 PM
Put one of these in your car and have some retro games running.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: AJCopland on June 25, 2010, 03:25:27 PM
I liked using RiscOS on the Archimedes at my secondary school, the machine was a real eye opener performance/power wise compared to PCs/Macs etc at the time.

Oh and there's a 1GHz Beagleboard in development at the moment too, with 512MB memory.
http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM

Andy
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: drHirudo on June 25, 2010, 03:27:21 PM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;567198
Put one of these in your car and have some retro games running.

UAE will be slow on it. But VICE shall fly.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 25, 2010, 03:35:30 PM
Quote from: drHirudo;567197
Why do you care how I spend MY money?


I don't think he meant it that way - I think he was simply comparing this over the X1000. Something I should point out the article does too.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Hattig on June 25, 2010, 03:55:01 PM
Yay co-operative multi-tasking!

Still, they were nice machines back in the day. And this is a pretty cheap option.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: beakster2 on June 25, 2010, 04:10:21 PM
OS4 is crying out for something like this.  It would really kickstart the community if we could get a little board like that which could run OS4.

With the low resource requirements and super quick boot times of OS4, coupled to something like that I can see so many potential commercial opportunities for it (kiosks, POS terminals, bus/airplane entertainment ).

So what is stopping someone making a cheap little board like that with a PPC processor?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 25, 2010, 04:20:13 PM
Quote from: beakster2;567207

So what is stopping someone making a cheap little board like that with a PPC processor?


The PPC processor, basically. Outside of telecoms and games consoles they're not very common these days.

Note Dammy's post about the new Effika MX systems - both are produced in relatively small quantities and use ARM yet offer prices and performance competitive with the X86 netbook and nettop markets.

If you want cheap but are allergic to x86, your options are MIPS or ARM.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: AJCopland on June 25, 2010, 04:20:13 PM
You mean like the Efika?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFIKA

Everyone complained about how low-end and slow it was/is.
I don't know of any PPC cpus you can get though that would be that cheap.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: redrumloa on June 25, 2010, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Crom00;567190
Compared to $1500 pounds that Amiga will cost you....
 
OUCH...that stings.

Quote from: drHirudo;567197
Why do you care how I spend MY money?

Actually you should ask The Register this question, since Crom00 is quoting the article.
 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/page2.html
 
And new RISC OS hardware has never been so cheap: the official price of the board in its home state of Texas is $149, which with trans-Atlantic markup converts to about £120 in the UK. You'll need some basic RISC OS-fu to get it up and running, but compared to the £1500 that the new Amiga (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/21/amiga_x1000/) will cost you, it's a bargain.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Varthall on June 25, 2010, 06:10:46 PM
Interesting stuff. I won't ditch my 1GHz AmigaOne for a 720MHz machine, though, whatever the price.

Varthall
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: som99 on June 25, 2010, 07:11:11 PM
Quote from: the_leander;567180
This one is for my fellow Brits: RISC OS returns on new cheap hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/).

Still early days of course, but the specs are interesting:

720MHz ARM CPU
PowerVR graphics
256Mb of RAM onboard
Ultra small form factor (nano itx or thereabouts).
RISC OS5

Price? £120

Hmm, anyone else here something that sounded like the pin being pulled on a grenade just then? ;)


Meh, it's a beagleboard, I got one, and I run Ångstöm Linux on it :) The board is nothing new, it's beena round for quite some time, I bought mine  mabe 2 years ago for development for the Pandora :)
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: som99 on June 25, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
Quote from: drHirudo;567200
UAE will be slow on it. But VICE shall fly.


Nah. the Pandora port of UAE runs OCS/ECS games fullspeed so I see no reason why the Beagleboard should be slower, but then ofcource you need to have Linux installed on the beagleboard :)

Edit:
A quite nice online builder of Ångström :)
http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/narcissus/
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: dammy on June 25, 2010, 09:48:07 PM
Quote from: AJCopland;567211
You mean like the Efika?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFIKA

Everyone complained about how low-end and slow it was/is.
I don't know of any PPC cpus you can get though that would be that cheap.


Try looking at the ARM based EFIKA-MX: http://www.genesi-usa.com/products
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: KThunder on June 25, 2010, 09:57:56 PM
Not knowing much about riscos os or the beagleboard (little more than that they are cool) Is this a similar concept to running Aros on a Pico-itx?

I read about riscos on old-computers.com a few months ago...
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: kolla on June 25, 2010, 10:01:56 PM
Why not AROS on beagleboard? AROS also has ARM support.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ajlwalker on June 25, 2010, 10:02:03 PM
Quote from: the_leander;567201
I don't think he meant it that way - I think he was simply comparing this over the X1000. Something I should point out the article does too.


Yes, but isn't it interesting that the comments spend more time discussing the C64?

Only one mention of Amiga and that comment has nothing to do with the price.

I also note that when it is the register saying the X1000 is an Amiga, nobody here is criticising saying, "it isn't an Amiga, not any more than any other modern PC".

Get a life people.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: KThunder on June 25, 2010, 10:15:21 PM
don't we have enough threads about the x1000?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Gulliver on June 25, 2010, 10:23:09 PM
Do not atempt to infringe damage on our OS4 sect!

We will pursue and destroy all non believers.

X-1000 is the next coming of our saviour

This is the only true religion, world domination is just around the corner!


Now seriously, is the RiscOS port on the beagleboard mature enough? It sounds really interesting.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Dementhor on June 25, 2010, 11:33:07 PM
Quote from: kolla;567274
Why not AROS on beagleboard? AROS also has ARM support.


Well, wouldn't it make more sense on Pandora then? It comes with keyboard and display pre-installed, in quite a nice pocketable case too ... Same goes for the RiscOS actually.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 26, 2010, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: ajlwalker;567276
Yes, but isn't it interesting that the comments spend more time discussing the C64?


That would be because most of the folks who would be interested in this sort of thing are genuine retro geeks.

Quote from: ajlwalker;567276


I also note that when it is the register saying the X1000 is an Amiga, nobody here is criticising saying, "it isn't an Amiga, not any more than any other modern PC".

Get a life people.


ZOMG people aren't bawwwing and you're complaining? What is wrong with you?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 26, 2010, 12:11:16 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;567283
Do not atempt to infringe damage on our OS4 sect!

We will pursue and destroy all non believers.

X-1000 is the next coming of our saviour

This is the only true religion, world domination is just around the corner!


Now seriously, is the RiscOS port on the beagleboard mature enough? It sounds really interesting.


If you read the article it says that like OS4 for the X1000 the public showing of this was the first time they got it going.

So almost certainly not ready for prime time.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: takemehomegrandma on June 26, 2010, 12:19:15 PM
Quote from: the_leander;567180
This one is for my fellow Brits: RISC OS returns on new cheap hardware (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/).

Still early days of course, but the specs are interesting:

720MHz ARM CPU
PowerVR graphics
256Mb of RAM onboard
Ultra small form factor (nano itx or thereabouts).
RISC OS5

Price? £120

Hmm, anyone else here something that sounded like the pin being pulled on a grenade just then? ;)


:)

For just a little more money you can get this "Smarttop":

(http://i50.tinypic.com/23mkd1h.png)

The specifications are as follows:

Freescale i.MX515 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX515) (ARM Cortex-A8 800MHz)
3D Graphics Processing Unit
WXGA display support (HDMI)
Multi-format HD video decoder and D1 video encoder
512MB RAM
4GB Internal SSD
802.11 b/g/n WiFi
Bluetooth
SDHC card reader
2x USB 2.0 ports
Audio jacks for headset
Built-in speaker

As something to refer to, I think it will actually kick some "Sam" butt performance wise!

There is also a "Smartbook" (Netbook based on ARM) that is built on the same SoC.

Video: See the Smartbook running! (http://armdevices.net/2010/06/23/microsoft-word-on-arm-powered-laptop-using-genesi-and-citrix-solutions/) :)

These products are the result of a cooperation between Genesi and Pegatron (think ASUS), and they will be mass produced. Genesi is currently building markets for these in numerous developing countries, like in El Salvador, where the Efika MX will be sold as "mobile phone" (bundled with a subscription plan). You can do cool things with this and built in GSM and GPS. :)

Target price for the Smartbook is around ~$300
Target price for the Smarttop is around ~$200 (only ~£13 more than the above mentioned Beagle board). You can actually buy it now already, not mass produced, for $250.

And yes, I think there might be a RISC OS port coming...

:)
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on June 26, 2010, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;567362
:)

Target price for the Smarttop is around ~$200 (only ~£13 more than the above mentioned Beagle board).


The quoted price in the article is $149 and I've seen them cheaper than that online.

Otherwise, nice bit of kit (in terms of price, spec and form) you and Dammy have both pointed to!
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 28, 2010, 12:02:25 PM
Holy thread necromancy!

Quote from: Varthall;567220
Interesting stuff. I won't ditch my 1GHz AmigaOne for a 720MHz machine, though, whatever the price.


Very well sir, I accept your challenge!

I see your 1Ghz A1, and raise you (drumroll please)

The Pandaboard (http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/pandaboard/39158/)!

Complete with dualcore ARM A9 1Ghz cpu, 1Gb of Ram and a display chip capable of outputting 1080p

All for $174 + shipping!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find something to mop up this puddle of drool.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Plaz on October 28, 2010, 12:51:02 PM
Now that has potential... drat, out of stock at the moment....

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?site=us&keywords=UEVM4430F-01-00-00-ND

Plaz
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on October 28, 2010, 01:19:27 PM
Quote from: the_leander;587631
Holy thread necromancy!



Very well sir, I accept your challenge!

I see your 1Ghz A1, and raise you (drumroll please)

The Pandaboard (http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/pandaboard/39158/)!

Complete with dualcore ARM A9 1Ghz cpu, 1Gb of Ram and a display chip capable of outputting 1080p

All for $174 + shipping!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find something to mop up this puddle of drool.

OK, I was willing to ignore this thread up to this point, but that one really does turn my head!
Anyone have raw performance number for this (or the processor)?
Also, where can you actually get one and what OS' are available for it?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Hattig on October 28, 2010, 01:27:10 PM
The ARM Cortex A9 can get 2.5 DMIPS/MHz, so a dual 1GHz board can get 5000 DMIPS. It's an out-of-order core as well. It should compete quite well on a per clock basis with a G4, and then you have to consider that there are two cores as well.

Shame that Hyperion probably won't port AmigaOS 4.1 to ARM though. Advances ARM SoCs would bring the cost of entry down massively.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Hammer on October 28, 2010, 01:31:16 PM
The X86 PC is the ultimate retro computer i.e. still running 1970s CISC** ISA and ancient BIOS.


**Translated to internal RISCy ISA.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: persia on October 28, 2010, 02:00:13 PM
Can't we get OS4 to one of these? This is the price point Hyperion should be aiming for.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: EDanaII on October 28, 2010, 02:24:35 PM
Quote from: drHirudo;567197
Why do you care how I spend MY money?


No offense, but... we don't care how you spend your money. We care how we spend OUR money and 1,500$ for cost of ownership is too much. I'd love to invest in Amiga again, but not at that price. I just invested in a MorphOS machine a 300$. A much more reasonable price.

Two cents.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Fransexy_ on October 28, 2010, 02:52:37 PM
Quote from: Crom00;567190
Compared to $1500 pounds that Amiga will cost you....

OUCH...that stings.

Quote from: the_leander;587631
Holy thread necromancy!



Very well sir, I accept your challenge!

I see your 1Ghz A1, and raise you (drumroll please)

The Pandaboard (http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/pandaboard/39158/)!

Complete with dualcore ARM A9 1Ghz cpu, 1Gb of Ram and a display chip capable of outputting 1080p

All for $174 + shipping!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find something to mop up this puddle of drool.

Quote from: the_leander;567201
I don't think he meant it that way - I think he was simply comparing this over the X1000. Something I should point out the article does too.

Quote from: EDanaII;587653
No offense, but... we don't care how you spend your money. We care how we spend OUR money and 1,500$ for cost of ownership is too much. I'd love to invest in Amiga again, but not at that price. I just invested in a MorphOS machine a 300$. A much more reasonable price.

Two cents.


Are you comparing the price of a motherboard alone to the price of a complete system with case, and with PCI-e, PCI, XORRO, SATA, IDE that the other do not have?

Are you comparing (EDanaII) the price of a second hand with new hardware?

Well why do not we compare Kilometres with liters for that matter? *rolling eyes*
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Hattig on October 28, 2010, 02:57:42 PM
Quote from: Hammer;587646
The X86 PC is the ultimate retro computer i.e. still running 1970s CISC** ISA and ancient BIOS.
**Translated to internal RISCy ISA.


64-bit x86 is far more amenable though. You could think of the instruction encoding as being crufty with the prefix bytes, but otherwise it's mostly orthogonal, 16 registers, etc.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: EDanaII on October 28, 2010, 02:59:41 PM
@ FranSexy

No, dude, I was comparing cost of ownership to cost of ownership. Which is the bottom line for many of us here.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Fransexy_ on October 28, 2010, 03:00:24 PM
Futhermore, you are comparing the Price of a Cpu used on a devices (mobile phones) that only the last 2 years sold more units that computers in all the history of the personal computers
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Fransexy_ on October 28, 2010, 03:02:13 PM
Quote from: EDanaII;587658
@ FranSexy

No, dude, I was comparing cost of ownership to cost of ownership. Which is the bottom line for many of us here.


Then, You can buy only the cpu and it will be more cheap and you own it *rolling eyes*
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: paolone on October 28, 2010, 03:22:13 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;587655
Are you comparing the price of a motherboard alone to the price of a complete system with case, and with PCI-e, PCI, XORRO, SATA, IDE that the other do not have?

"PCI-e, PCI, XORRO, SATA, IDE" are just connectors and BUS. What makes the difference in a complete system is the hardware you connect to them. I'm still waiting for a complete X1000 HW configuration (drives, cards, and so) for a right price comparation with actual PCs.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 28, 2010, 03:36:05 PM
@Iggy there is a port of Ubuntu for this thing apparently. Also android.


Quote from: Fransexy_;587655
Are you comparing the price of a motherboard alone to the price of a complete system with case, and with PCI-e, PCI, XORRO, SATA, IDE that the other do not have?


The price quoted for the X1000 was afaik for the motherboard alone.

PCI slots that you're going to use for what exactly? There are drivers for what, maybe a dozen PCI cards AmigaOS can use, graphics is taken care of on board. USB ftw. This thing comes with everything you need on a single board to make it usable. What good are these connectors if there is very limited use made of them by the OS?

Seriously though, Xorro? The Xcore is available as a $10 usb dongle.

--edit--

Bah, paolone said it better.

The point is, this board is out there, it's cheap, it's available and performance wise an A9 should do quite well against a G4/5 class cpu.

Oh and the OS's are fast becoming mature for this hardware platform.

Quote from: Fransexy_;587655

Futhermore, you are comparing the Price of a Cpu used on a devices (mobile phones) that only the last 2 years sold more units that computers in all the history of the personal computers


So what? All that means to me is that I get great performance for a low cost. Also very low power requirements = cheaper running costs.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 28, 2010, 03:39:00 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;587660
Then, You can buy only the cpu and it will be more cheap and you own it *rolling eyes*


Don't be a tard.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: persia on October 28, 2010, 04:44:51 PM
@the_leander

I thought the price for the beta board was £1,150.  The case is another £150 or so, adding drives memory etc would push it above £1,500 by some, but not a lot.  Still looks rather pricey compared to USD 174 for a motherboard though...

AmigaOS appears to be aiming for the classes not the masses, but realistically that may be the only way to survive financially.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 28, 2010, 04:57:23 PM
Quote from: persia;587684

I thought the price for the beta board was £1,150. The case is another £150 or so, adding drives memory etc would push it above £1,500 by some, but not a lot. Still looks rather pricey compared to USD 174 for a motherboard though...


Wasn't the cost of the beta board supposed to be subsidised? But yeah.

Quote from: persia;587684

AmigaOS appears to be aiming for the classes not the masses, but realistically that may be the only way to survive financially.


Its a fine way to go if you've both the product and the name to brand name to justify it.

Given the reaction even of no small number of hardcore supporters though...

Anyway, the reason I put this up, beyond a slight desire to feed my inner troll, is that this is the sort of cool tech that keeps me interested in computers.

Look at the size of the system. If I were to guess I'd say a little bigger than nano-itx. So a bit more than the floor space a box of kitchen matches takes up.

Yet has as much CPU umph as G4 powermac, possibly more graphically.

Doesn't that realisation absolutely blow you away?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: haywirepc on October 28, 2010, 06:19:35 PM
This board IS just cool, and would make a really cool tiny system. Its 4 inches by 4-1/2 inches. Thats awesome, just awesome for the horsepower it offers.
 
I can imagine you could solar power this board, dependant on the power requirements. It certainly would be easy to hack into a keyboard case.
 
Would make an awesome media center in your car...
 
It would make a nice set top box for watching youtube on your living room tv too. 175$ is cheap, and I bet you'd get much better pricing if you were say hyperion or morphos and bought 1,000 boards.
 
I think arm could be a great future for amiga like oses....
 
Isn't someone porting aros to arm?
 
It already runs ubuntu... I may buy one just to play with.
 
Steven
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on October 28, 2010, 06:28:48 PM
yes Alan,
I'm with you on this one. Its a neat low power system with almost everything you need in a really small form.
What about expansion? The set up documentation shows the system connected to a host (primarily for storage). Is there any way to connect a drive controller to this board. I'm not sure I want to be limited to USB or complact flash for storage.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: zylesea on October 28, 2010, 07:02:39 PM
Quote from: beakster2;567207


So what is stopping someone making a cheap little board like that with a PPC processor?

Nothing - except nobody shells ot the money to actually do it.
What about an even more minimalistc ppc board for half the price? MPC5125 is your friend. e300 @ 400 MHz all required things within the SOC except audio. Add a little RAM (say 256 MB) and a socket for an SD card and there you go. The chip costs only 11 US$ in bulk order and runs at a single watt.
Sure, 400 MHz is not really up to date, but for 50 US$ board it would offer a lot of fun... Put AROS ppc on it and you'll have an ultra cheap little Amiga.
Or if more power is required there are ppc alternatives. ppc is only dead for the desktop, beside the desktop it is pretty alive. It's only stupid to try to build desktop computers on either way underpowered cpus (AMCCs offerings) or outdated but very expensive midclass cpus (PA6T).
While a 1500 EUR kit isn't able to compete with current x86 desktop offers anyway this is a dead end. The key (as long as the no x86 mantra is valid) is affordeable gear, say 50 EUR (e300/400 class)  to 300 EUR (e600 or e500 /1000-1500 MHz class) stuff. That kind of kit is for fun sales. While it can't powerwise challenge a Core i7, it even doesn't need to try to do so - it is a complete different kind of product and no wannabe high end desktop computer.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on October 28, 2010, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: the_leander;587688
Wasn't the cost of the beta board supposed to be subsidised? But yeah.



Its a fine way to go if you've both the product and the name to brand name to justify it.

Given the reaction even of no small number of hardcore supporters though...

Anyway, the reason I put this up, beyond a slight desire to feed my inner troll, is that this is the sort of cool tech that keeps me interested in computers.

Look at the size of the system. If I were to guess I'd say a little bigger than nano-itx. So a bit more than the floor space a box of kitchen matches takes up.

Yet has as much CPU umph as G4 powermac, possibly more graphically.

Doesn't that realisation absolutely blow you away?


Oh no, now you're inciting the X1000 clowns who will start flaming you, because to them, the X1000 is obviously a better system because it just has to be!  I mean heck, a 1500EUR computer just HAS to be better than one costing 125EUR? Right?  The X1000 even has that Booing Ball logo on the front and everything! And SATA ports, and that Xorro or Xena thingy...and...and...

Sarcasm off:

OS4 could just as easily be ported to a Beagle Board or a PandaBoard, but then the hard-core Amiga loyalists couldn't be gouged as deeply!  The X1000 is ridiculously overpriced and underpowered for the cost.  The X1000 "IS" about the money in spite of what A-Eon and Hyperion are saying.  The prices for comparable systems or for developer boards such as the Beagle and Panda prove it.  Building the X1000 "out of love" or "for the community" is a bunch of baloney.  I'll stick to MorphOS and a Natami for my Amiga-fixes.  Too bad Hyperion hasn't figured out they'd be more successful selling cheaper hardware (bundled with OS4) to the masses than bundling with hardware that's so obscure and expensive that only a handful will ever CONSIDER buying it.  Economies of scale anyone........
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: persia on October 28, 2010, 07:32:16 PM
I would love a tiny aOS 4 system, slap it on the back of a monitor, install it in your car, it's almost a stealth computer.  Sort of an AmigaAnywhere without the Taos.  But it doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Fransexy_ on October 28, 2010, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;567362
:)

For just a little more money you can get this "Smarttop":

(http://i50.tinypic.com/23mkd1h.png)

The specifications are as follows:

Freescale i.MX515 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=i.MX515) (ARM Cortex-A8 800MHz)
3D Graphics Processing Unit
WXGA display support (HDMI)
Multi-format HD video decoder and D1 video encoder
512MB RAM
4GB Internal SSD
802.11 b/g/n WiFi
Bluetooth
SDHC card reader
2x USB 2.0 ports
Audio jacks for headset
Built-in speaker

As something to refer to, I think it will actually kick some "Sam" butt performance wise!

There is also a "Smartbook" (Netbook based on ARM) that is built on the same SoC.

Video: See the Smartbook running! (http://armdevices.net/2010/06/23/microsoft-word-on-arm-powered-laptop-using-genesi-and-citrix-solutions/) :)

These products are the result of a cooperation between Genesi and Pegatron (think ASUS), and they will be mass produced. Genesi is currently building markets for these in numerous developing countries, like in El Salvador, where the Efika MX will be sold as "mobile phone" (bundled with a subscription plan). You can do cool things with this and built in GSM and GPS. :)

Target price for the Smartbook is around ~$300
Target price for the Smarttop is around ~$200 (only ~£13 more than the above mentioned Beagle board). You can actually buy it now already, not mass produced, for $250.

And yes, I think there might be a RISC OS port coming...

:)

RiscOS 5 also run on Touch Book (http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/)

(http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/images/thumb/0/03/Riscos5aitouchbook.png/664px-Riscos5aitouchbook.png)

The specifications

    * 9.7" x 7" x 1.3" for around 3 lbs (with keyboard)
    * ARM Texas Instruments OMAP3 chip
    * 1024x600 8.9" Multitouch screen
    * Video output HDMI 720p
    * 512MB RAM - 8GB SD card for storage
    * Wifi 802.11 b/g/n and Bluetooth
    * 3-dimensional accelerometer
    * Speakers, micro and headphone I/O
    * 7 USB 2.0 (4 internal, 3 external)
    * 10 hours of battery life


http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/RISC_OS
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on October 28, 2010, 11:40:10 PM
Quote from: zylesea;587703
Nothing - except nobody shells ot the money to actually do it.
What about an even more minimalistc ppc board for half the price? MPC5125 is your friend. e300 @ 400 MHz all required things within the SOC except audio. Add a little RAM (say 256 MB) and a socket for an SD card and there you go. The chip costs only 11 US$ in bulk order and runs at a single watt.
Sure, 400 MHz is not really up to date, but for 50 US$ board it would offer a lot of fun... Put AROS ppc on it and you'll have an ultra cheap little Amiga.
Or if more power is required there are ppc alternatives. ppc is only dead for the desktop, beside the desktop it is pretty alive. It's only stupid to try to build desktop computers on either way underpowered cpus (AMCCs offerings) or outdated but very expensive midclass cpus (PA6T).
While a 1500 EUR kit isn't able to compete with current x86 desktop offers anyway this is a dead end. The key (as long as the no x86 mantra is valid) is affordeable gear, say 50 EUR (e300/400 class)  to 300 EUR (e600 or e500 /1000-1500 MHz class) stuff. That kind of kit is for fun sales. While it can't powerwise challenge a Core i7, it even doesn't need to try to do so - it is a complete different kind of product and no wannabe high end desktop computer.


I don't knpw, Zylesea, I don't think you're going to be able to get the price of an e600 core based motherboard down to 300 EUR. The processors cost almost that. And I don't knowabout the rest of the family, but the MPC8640/8641 works better paired with a Southbridge (like the SB600 used on the X1000 motherboard). Considering the complexity of the board, the cost of the processors, and the necessary glue logic the price would be about double that or more.
Now e300 cored products might be closer to your price, but they don't offer the processing power of the ARM processors mentioned here.

I like PPC processors, but I don't think we have any SoCs that are this compact, powerful, and low cost.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on October 29, 2010, 04:00:30 AM
I've spent more time than I should have researching the PandaBoard.

Since the board is designed as developers system its got a few rough edges.

Use of full memory increases the chance of crashes.
There are several other causes for boot crashes and run time crashes (like network initialization on boot).
The DVI outputs aren't enabled unit (nor is the LCD output).
Sound files and HD video still may experience some stuttering.

I haven't checked on how open the PowerVR GPU is to development.
I haven't seen anyone use the expansion bus yet.

Still, it does look neat.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: zylesea on October 29, 2010, 09:31:22 AM
Quote from: Iggy;587759
I don't knpw, Zylesea, I don't think you're going to be able to get the price of an e600 core based motherboard down to 300 EUR. The processors cost almost that.

8610 is to get for much less. Also note that many e500 processors have a nin-insane price/performance ratio (some PowerQUICCs and QorIQ).
Quote
And I don't knowabout the rest of the family, but the MPC8640/8641 works better paired with a Southbridge (like the SB600 used on the X1000 motherboard).

Better yes, but if you leave out all the bells and whistles you can do a simple and cost intensive design. The probelm is that these chips aren't designed as desktop processors (okay the 864x was intended for general computing), so better don't try to make a desktop computer outof this. Keep it simple, tehn you'r able to reach good prices.
[/QUOTE]Considering the complexity of the board, the cost of the processors, and the necessary glue logic the price would be about double that or more.
[/QUOTE]
Quote

Now e300 cored products might be closer to your price, but they don't offer the processing power of the ARM processors mentioned here.

The e300/400 is for sure much weaker than the ARMs of the prducts listed here, but it could yield to way cheaper boards.
Look to the 5125, it has all you need and is 11US$. A 50 US$ board to play around would sound fun to me.
With QorIQ 2010 a 150 US$ e500/1000 board including a Uli M1575 SB doesn't seem like a too crazy phanatsy. Would probably not match a 150US$ x86 or the ARM board, but also not too far off and holding other benfits. Probably more difficult to sell, than a 50 US$ toy board though... But such a 1 W toy board would still run circles around all PowerUp hardware, it would pretty exctly match Efika power with worse gfx, but better usb and no crippled ATA interface. I still rate the Efika as nice fun/special use device with two major draw backs: too little RAM, too expensive. Not the board itself withits 99 US$ price tag, but you need an ATX psu, a gfx card, a hdd and a case - exceeds 200 US$ rather quickly. And for that ammount of money a e300/400 w/128 MB RAM is not too sexy again (but I still like mine).

Problem is: There is probably nobody going to make such a board. I will not do so either - my funds are currently not that big that I could take the risk, just bought a house a week ago :-)
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: lsmart on October 29, 2010, 05:02:53 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;587707
The X1000 is ridiculously overpriced and underpowered for the cost.


Most people said this about the Amiga 3000 by the time it was new. Or look at apples prices in the 90s. But wait for the machine to arrive first, then we will see how powerful or cool it really is.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 29, 2010, 05:21:25 PM
Quote from: Iggy;587701
yes Alan,
I'm with you on this one. Its a neat low power system with almost everything you need in a really small form.
What about expansion? The set up documentation shows the system connected to a host (primarily for storage). Is there any way to connect a drive controller to this board. I'm not sure I want to be limited to USB or complact flash for storage.


Unless you're doing ridiculous amounts of very HD intensive work (for instance, using this as a database system), USB should be fine in terms of performance.

Or you could hook it upto a gigabit lan and use a NAS. Either should provide reasonable performance.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 29, 2010, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: lsmart;587923
Most people said this about the Amiga 3000 by the time it was new.


Citation needed.

Quote from: lsmart;587923

 Or look at apples prices in the 90s.


Hell if we're going down this nonsense road, why not compare it to Multics capable systems from the 60's, compared to them, the X1000 is an absolute bargain!
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ChrisH on October 29, 2010, 06:53:09 PM
Quote from: persia;587710
I would love a tiny aOS 4 system...  But it doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly.

Strange then that the Mini-ITX Sam440 runs AmigaOS4...  (And I found a lovely little case (http://www.amigans.net/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=261) to put the motherboard in.  Note that the case on the left is still small by PC standards, but the one on the right is ridiculously small.)
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 29, 2010, 08:26:37 PM
Quote from: ChrisH;587976
Strange then that the Mini-ITX Sam440...


That isn't in production or stock anywhere and hasn't been for how long?

Also wasn't that the one that had some severe issues with regard picture quality?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on October 29, 2010, 08:44:38 PM
Congradulations on the house Zylesea!
Points made on PPCs are valid, but we don't have anyone producing boards like that.
And I don't think they'd be really undeer powered when compared to Acube boards (which use low powered Applied Micro processors and are a bit underpowered and over priced).

But Alans points on the adavantages of ARM processors  brings home some interesting points Since ARM processor are being sold in such high volumes (for consumer devices) they're at a nice low price. And, originally these processors were designed for PCs. While many of their current applications aren't in traditional computers, the devices they are used in have many functional similarities to PC.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 29, 2010, 08:48:40 PM
Quote from: Iggy;587816
I've spent more time than I should have researching the PandaBoard.

Since the board is designed as developers system its got a few rough edges.

Use of full memory increases the chance of crashes.


Have they worked out if this is a Linux issue or a hardware fault?

Quote from: Iggy;587816

There are several other causes for boot crashes and run time crashes (like network initialization on boot).


Hmm, firmware issues for boot crashes?

Quote from: Iggy;587816

The DVI outputs aren't enabled unit (nor is the LCD output).


What, by default or is it physically not capable of doing so?

Quote from: Iggy;587816

Sound files and HD video still may experience some stuttering.


Codec/driver/scheduling conflicts within the kernel. Given similar issues being noted with other similarly powerful hardware I'd be inclined to look at drivers being the culprit with HD video/sound issues.

Quote from: Iggy;587816

I haven't checked on how open the PowerVR GPU is to development.


There is apparently a public SDK.

Quote from: Iggy;587816

I haven't seen anyone use the expansion bus yet.

Still, it does look neat.


What does the expansion bus offer that isn't onboard?
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on October 29, 2010, 09:14:02 PM
Quote from: lsmart;587923
Most people said this about the Amiga 3000 by the time it was new. Or look at apples prices in the 90s. But wait for the machine to arrive first, then we will see how powerful or cool it really is.

No, I remember quite clearly when the A3000 was released and it wasn't so overpriced or underpowered as the X1000.  It was comparable in price and performance to 68030 based Macs, even a bit more capable actually.  Compare the hardware specs of the X1000 to any available platform out there and you'll see that it's about 5 years behind.

As for waiting for the X1000 to arrive, I think you have a lot more waiting ahead of you.  A-Eon has already missed their summer release deadline.  After what I saw at AmiWest, or rather didn't see, I'm sure they'll miss this Fall/Winter deadline as well.  The X1000 is just another failed hardware fiasco and is so similar to what Adam Kowalczyk of ACK Software Controls was cooking up in 2007, that I'm starting to think that the X1000 is just the same project in a different wrapper ala 2010.  I doubt the X1000 will ever see the light of day.  But at least Adam's pricing was reasonable!  It's "funny" that Adam could offer hardware at similiar specs to the X1000 in 2007 for half of what A-Eon wants in 2010.  See:  http://www.osnews.com/story/17866
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on October 29, 2010, 09:20:13 PM
Quote from: the_leander;588014
Have they worked out if this is a Linux issue or a hardware fault?

Hard to say, right now they're just suggesting limiting memory use.

Quote
Hmm, firmware issues for boot crashes?

Again, currently the network initialization problem's cause is unknown. But they did list some potential work arounds so they probaly have a clue.

Quote
What, by default or is it physically not capable of doing so?


DVI and LCD just haven't been enabled yet.

Quote
Codec]/driver/scheduling conflicts within the kernel. Given similar issues being noted with other similarly powerful hardware I'd be inclined to look at drivers being the culprit with HD video/sound issues.

Definately just teething problems. I'm sure they can work this out.

Quote
There is apparently a public SDK.

That's surprising and a real bonus. After all
 ATI and Nvidia pretty much  keeps every one in the dark.

Quote
What does the expansion bus offer that isn't onboard?

Nothing except drive controllers and the possobility of future expansion. And it has an expansion bus (which appears to be similar to another board I've seen) which is certainly positive. In fact, this board is amazingly complete right down to a substainial amount of memory. That's why I'm so impressed
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ChrisH on October 31, 2010, 04:46:10 PM
Quote from: the_leander;588006
That isn't in production or stock anywhere and hasn't been for how long?

Irrelevant regarding the post I was answering, which said "a tiny aOS 4 system... doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly."  Not to mention that there was the MicroA1 further back in history, which was a similar size IIRC.

Quote
Also wasn't that the one that had some severe issues with regard picture quality?

What's with the negativity?  Had absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Anyway, it looks absolutely marvelous using DVI, which any half-decent LCD monitor supports.  But yes, it does look somewhat fuzzy *for some people* using a DVI-to-VGA converter (iirc ACube think this is due to the cable used).
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on October 31, 2010, 05:21:41 PM
Quote from: ChrisH;588333
Irrelevant regarding the post I was answering, which sais "a tiny aOS 4 system... doesn't fit the grand design of a microprocessor in a big box costing lots of money, so it won't fly."  Not to mention that there was the MicroA1 further back in history, which was a similar size IIRC.


If it isn't available, that's pretty damn relevant to the discussion. Pointing out that what you're offering as alternative has some pretty funky flaws is again relevant. This in of itself wouldn't be much of a problem given that this board too has teething troubles itself. But both the Sam and especially the MA1 (Articia troubles, not to mention really crumby build quality) were sold as consumer ready systems.

Ignoring all of this though, both of your proposed alternatives both suffer from the same basic issue that the X1000 does - they don't offer much bang for your bucks.

Quote from: ChrisH;588333

What's with the negativity?


Pointing out that there were severe hardware flaws present != Negativity.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: lsmart on October 31, 2010, 09:28:41 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;588023
No, I remember quite clearly when the A3000 was released and it wasn't so overpriced or underpowered


1990: Commodore announces the Amiga 3000. Prices start at US$4100 with a monitor. (16Mhz 50MBHD 2MB RAM)

1990: 386 PC (25 MHZ 50MB HD 1MB RAM) with a monitor -> $2000

Mac pricing in the 90 was a joke, so I won´t compare that.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on October 31, 2010, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: lsmart;588393
1990: Commodore announces the Amiga 3000. Prices start at US$4100 with a monitor. (16Mhz 50MBHD 2MB RAM)

1990: 386 PC (25 MHZ 50MB HD 1MB RAM) with a monitor -> $2000

Mac pricing in the 90 was a joke, so I won´t compare that.


No, now you're comparing apples to oranges.  My point was that the Commodore A3000 compared quite favorably in price and performance to Apple 68030 Macs.  And you have to remember that back in those days, 1 MB of RAM went for several hundred dollars.  So comparing a 386SX 25Mhz, 1 MB RAM running MS-DOS with CGA graphics and 1 MB RAM isn't directly comparable in price or performance to a 68030 25Mhz, 2MB RAM, and multi-tasking OS and graphics above an beyond anything available to the x86 world.

Even when comparing like-processors such as a discontinued MAC G5 with the X1000, anyone can see that the X1000 is vastly overpriced and underpowered.  The X1000 fails to light any fires or blaze any new trails, except in the outrageously overpriced hardware department.  It's doubtful that it will even reach the market.  It's funny that Adam Kowalczyk of ACK Software Controls was developing an almost identical platform as the X1000 in 2007 at nearly half the price of an X1000.  Matter of fact, I believe that the X1000 is Adam's 2007 project in a different wrapper and a higher price.  See specs here:  http://www.osnews.com/story/17866
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2010, 12:46:31 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;588394
No, now you're comparing apples to oranges.  My point was that the Commodore A3000 compared quite favorably in price and performance to Apple 68030 Macs.  And you have to remember that back in those days, 1 MB of RAM went for several hundred dollars.  So comparing a 386SX 25Mhz, 1 MB RAM running MS-DOS with CGA graphics and 1 MB RAM isn't directly comparable in price or performance to a 68030 25Mhz, 2MB RAM, and multi-tasking OS and graphics above an beyond anything available to the x86 world.

Even when comparing like-processors such as a discontinued MAC G5 with the X1000, anyone can see that the X1000 is vastly overpriced and underpowered.  The X1000 fails to light any fires or blaze any new trails, except in the outrageously overpriced hardware department.  It's doubtful that it will even reach the market.  It's funny that Adam Kowalczyk of ACK Software Controls was developing an almost identical platform as the X1000 in 2007 at nearly half the price of an X1000.  Matter of fact, I believe that the X1000 is Adam's 2007 project in a different wrapper and a higher price.  See specs here:  http://www.osnews.com/story/17866


Maybe you shouldn't think so much. ACK Software Controls has nothing to do with this project. Perhaps Treavor picked that particular CPU because it appealed to him, or he thought there was some contunuity in that choice. I discussed PPC designs with the head of the firm that designed Xena for A-eon. At the time he suggested Freescale communications PPC processors (rather than PA Semi's PA6T).  
The only real mystery (beyond why they choose a dead end processor) is where A-eon is getting these processors?
And the power comparison isn't as valid as what is pointed to by your post.
The Amiga 3000 was produced for a more limited market by one company. 386 motherboards/systems were produced many manufacturers for a larger, more competive market.

I don't know why you guys expect PPC motherboards produced in comparitively TINY quantities to even come close to the prices mass marketed X86 systems.

It's not going to happen. Even if we had a market as large as Apple's, our costs would still be higher than X86 producers.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on November 01, 2010, 01:10:17 AM
Quote from: Iggy;588407
Maybe you shouldn't think so much. ACK Software Controls has nothing to do with this project. Perhaps Treavor picked that particular CPU because it appealed to him, or he thought there was some contunuity in that choice. I discussed PPC designs with the head of the firm that designed Xena for A-eon. At the time he suggested Freescale communications PPC processors (rather than PA Semi's PA6T).  
the only real mystery (beyond why they choose a dead end processor) is where A-eon is getting these processors?
And the power comparison isn't as valid as what is pointed to by your post.
The Amiga 3000 was procuced for a more limited market by one company. 386 motherboards/systems were produced many manufacturers for a larger, more competive market.

I don't know why you guys expect PPC motherboards produced in comparitively TINY quantities to even come close to the prices mass marketed X86 systems.

It's not going to happen. Even if we had a market as large as Apple's, our costs would still be higher than X86 producers.

My level of thought in this matter is just fine.  Maybe it's your lack of research and your lack of thought that has you believing that the X1000 is such a wonderful deal?  And I don't care if ACK has anything to do with the X1000 project or not.  But ACK was able to come up with a design similar to the X1000 three years ago at half the price!  If anyone believes that A-Eon is developing the X1000 out of the goodness of their hearts or "for the good of the community" they are gravely mistaken.

Once again, you want to keep comparing apples to oranges.  I don't care about the cost performance comparisons between a 386 and a 68030 based system from nearly 20 yrs ago.  But when someone tells me that $3500 USD for an X1000 is a good deal and the price to performance ratio is also good, I know they're full of baloney.  Just compare the X1000 to other similar hardware offerings (apples to apples) and you'll see that.  And the economies of scale argument you're using doesn't hold true either.  Low-volume development boards (the X1000 is now being "pushed" as a dev board after being critisized over its pricing) such as the Panda and the Beagle cost a fraction of the asking price of an X1000 and they're available now, not vaporware.  You must have some financial interest in A-Eon or Hyperion for you to cling so valiantly to your "belief" that the X1000 is such a fabulous deal......Believe what you want, because those of us on this forum who've put a great deal of thought and research into the X1000 aren't buying it, pun intended!
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Tripitaka on November 01, 2010, 01:50:57 AM
Quote from: Fransexy_;587722
RiscOS 5 also run on Touch Book (http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/)

(http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/images/thumb/0/03/Riscos5aitouchbook.png/664px-Riscos5aitouchbook.png)

The specifications

    * 9.7" x 7" x 1.3" for around 3 lbs (with keyboard)
    * ARM Texas Instruments OMAP3 chip
    * 1024x600 8.9" Multitouch screen
    * Video output HDMI 720p
    * 512MB RAM - 8GB SD card for storage
    * Wifi 802.11 b/g/n and Bluetooth
    * 3-dimensional accelerometer
    * Speakers, micro and headphone I/O
    * 7 USB 2.0 (4 internal, 3 external)
    * 10 hours of battery life


http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/wiki/index.php/RISC_OS



I'm in love. I must have one. Damn you man why did you show me that, now I have to to rework my entire budget.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: B00tDisk on November 01, 2010, 01:57:08 AM
Quote from: lsmart;587923
Most people said this about the Amiga 3000 by the time it was new.


Actually Byte magazine raved about the A3000 and proclaimed it as the system to beat.  Sun tried desperately to license build A3000UX's and market them with a Sun badge.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on November 01, 2010, 02:09:29 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;588411
I'm in love. I must have one. Damn you man why did you show me that, now I have to to rework my entire budget.

And only $399!  That's a bargain, especially for a narrow, low-volume market.  Makes the argument for the X1000's high price look like the bad joke it really is.....
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on November 01, 2010, 02:15:07 AM
Quote from: B00tDisk;588412
Actually Byte magazine raved about the A3000 and proclaimed it as the system to beat.  Sun tried desperately to license build A3000UX's and market them with a Sun badge.


Finally, someone who actually remembers the A3000 and isn't trying to be a historical revisionist!
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2010, 02:17:52 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;588409
My level of thought in this matter is just fine.  Maybe it's your lack of research and your lack of thought that has you believing that the X1000 is such a wonderful deal?  And I don't care if ACK has anything to do with the X1000 project or not.  But ACK was able to come up with a design similar to the X1000 three years ago at half the price!  If anyone believes that A-Eon is developing the X1000 out of the goodness of their hearts or "for the good of the community" they are gravely mistaken.

Once again, you want to keep comparing apples to oranges.  I don't care about the cost performance comparisons between a 386 and a 68030 based system from nearly 20 yrs ago.  But when someone tells me that $3500 USD for an X1000 is a good deal and the price to performance ratio is also good, I know they're full of baloney.  And the economies of scale argument you're using doesn't hold true either.  Low-volume development boards such as the Panda and the Beagle cost a fraction of the asking price of an X1000 and they're available now, not vaporware,.  You must have some financial interest in A-Eon for you to cling so valiantly to your "belief" that the X1000 is such a fabulous deal......Believe what you want, because those of us on this forum who've put a great deal of thought and research into the X1000 aren't buying it, pun intended!

Well at least your posts are amuzing. I checked out the PandaBoard after Alan refered to it. Its a neat design and according to poeple I trust, ARM processors like the A9 may support the same endian scheme as the 68K and PPC processor (making an Amiga OS much easier to create). However, like I've previously posted this is a development board with a few rough edges.
Now as to my beliefs. I believe that until the MorphOS development team announced support for G4 Mac, I was working on a motherboard design that teamed a Freescale MPC8641 or 8640 processor with an ATI SB600 Southbridge. Since many people in the MOS community had been convinced by people at Genesi and bPlan that the SB600 was not a standard PCIe X4 component, most people believed it couldn't be used.
Well, the Southbridge on the Xena is an SB600 (no surprise to me) and as I've mentioned before I talked to the head of the firm that designed the Xena before A-eon released the news of their connection with that firm.
Your paranoid speculation about me having a connection with A-eon is halarious! I never met, talked to, or e-mailed Treavor. However, everyone I know who is familiar with him have nothing but good things to say about him. And, unlike ACK, he does actually have a product (not just an announcement of such made by the always trustworthy Bill McEwen.). My only connection was previous contact with the designers of his board, a similar (if lower powered) board under design, and a desire to see something real introduced (rather than more of the vaporous BS that has always filled the vacuum in Amiga land).

And you know what the prime difference between me and Treavor is (besides the available funds to pursue his idea)? I looked at the economics of it and decided it didn't make sense to move forward. The processors for the initial test boards were already in my hands (thanks to Freescale) and I was in the process of moving from schematics into circuit layout when the first real hurdle came. Roughly calculated, it was going to cost me about $10,000 just to get past the prototype phase. Once in production, the boards would be fairly expensive (about what Acube is quoting for their new board - lower than the X1000, but still expensive). The market was limited. I was primarily interested in the MorphOS market. I didn't have the money to pay the MOS team to port their OS to the board. I couldn't count on Hyperion supporting the board.
And most importantly, there would be plenty of nimrods with no understanding of basic economics questioning my motives and character, the value of the product, and why they couldn't have it cheaper.

Well. I'm not mortgaging my house to get abuse from a bunch of ungrateful , self centered hobbyists while I invest my time and resources in a venture that would be more about what I personally wanted (rather than what we were all likely to get).
Am I going to buy an X1000? No.
Should you buy an X1000? Probably not (unless you have to have the best PPC platform for AOS).
What am I going to do instead? Stick with MorphOS on my Powermac, and when its ready add a Powerbook to my collection. Hope for a future G5 port..

Do I care about your opinion? I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested, but it doesn't mean I care for it.
These posts aren't a contest (of wills, knowledge, or wit).
They're just a forum to exchanges ideas, information, and the occasional friendly rib poke.

You should take things a bit less seriously. There's no great conspiracies left in our market (because there is no money in our market). Except for CUSA, I don't think anyone left in this market is really motivated by money anymore, they're just doing something they like.
ake it
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on November 01, 2010, 02:25:32 AM
@Iggy

Well, I acutally think we're in violent agreement!  No hard feelings and I actually enjoy a spirited exchange, even the one I've had with you.  Amiga.org is anything but boring and it's one of the reasons, aside from my fondness for Amigas, that I'm here.  And don't get me wrong, I hope Trevor is successful.  I hope he goes on to sell thousands of boards and that the Amiga is once again a useful platform to more than just the hobbyist-cult found here.  I'm just more than a bit jaded by all of the past hardware failures and broken promises and outright scams.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2010, 04:28:46 AM
Sorry if my response seemed a little harsh.
Do I remember the Amiga?
Are you guys kidding?
When it was introduced,  I was convinced the 68000 processor was completely superior to anything else on the market (because it was).
Was the Amiga high priced? Hey, this was before circuit libraries from companies like VLSI were available and it had how many custom chips? All focused on relieving the processor from tasks that the coprocessors could handle so that an already remarkably able multi-tasking processor could focus on program code. Amazing stuff.
Today's NG Amiga like systems have only become more PC like because PCs have become so much more like the Amiga.
Myself, in the late '80s and early '90's, I was managing a company that sold multi-user 68K based systems that out of the box supported four users and could support a fifth (that could use an X-Window based windowing system called G-Windows) by adding a video card, keyboard, and mouse.
We weren't aimming at the Amiga market, we were selling to business.
The base price for our systems started at under $1000. We also offered a V30 card for the system that gave it PC compatibility.
I can remember demoing our POS system to IBM engineers and getting favorable comparisons to the mainframe systems.
Its funny, at the time they still considered their own PCs as little more than smart terminals.
Via these same connections, we obtained beta copies of Win 3.0 (no, not 3.1 - 3.0). I had this GUI running on our machines (along with our own software) when PC could barely be considered multi-tasking capable (let alone multi-user).
It makes you wonder how IBM and Motorola could allow a second rate manufacturer of calculator processors to overtake them and become the leading producer of PC processors. I mean Intel processor were SO bad at first.
If IBM had just produced their own processor (but then all the original PC components - hardware and software - were outsourced) or if IBM had gone to a larger company (like Motorola) then everything would be so much different today.

I never expected Intel based PCs to become a standard. But then, the way they became a standard is pretty odd, an totally unintended anyway.
IBM didn't insist on an exclusive license to MS-DOS (aka IBM-DOS)
Bill Gates was smart enough to retain his right to sell MS-DOS.
And since IBM assumed that with a patented BIOS limiting compatiblity to  their hardware and software no one could clone the PC that they would retain control of their own market.
Between their BIG loss (controlling the PC market) and their second loss (as a supplier of processors to Apple) is it any wonder that IBM doesn't want a part of the PC market today?
Did any of you consider that those losses might have somrthing to do with their reluctance to market the Cell, its derivitives, or future PPCs toward the personal computer market?

Its funny, the company actually builds pretty good products, they're more open than some companies (Ie Marvell or Applied Micro), and they've managed to get the contracts to supply all three of the major game consoles with PPC related processor (two of which work faster than their last G5 desktop processor).

Do I remember the Amiga? Yes, everytime I look at a PC and more importantly ever time I see a game console.
What does a PS3 or an XBOX360 remind you of? Me? There CD32's in need of a keyboard and mouse.

The thing that TOTALLY pisses me off is this. Amiga? Heck its all around us.

Steve Jobs acts like everything he's introduced since he took over while Woz's Apple II was dying a prolonged death wasn't handed to him via Xerox's PARC program.

Bill gates likes to pretend he did steal his original product (not only did he, but what he didn't pay for was still just a shoddy CPM rip off).

And the first real multimedia computer marketed to the consumer market? Lorraine just gets no respect.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on November 01, 2010, 12:05:59 PM
Quote from: Iggy;588434
Sorry if my response seemed a little harsh.
Do I remember the Amiga?
Are you guys kidding?
When it was introduced,  I was convinced the 68000 processor was completely superior to anything else on the market (because it was).
Was the Amiga high priced? Hey, this was before circuit libraries from companies like VLSI were available and it had how many custom chips? All focused on relieving the processor from tasks that the coprocessors could handle so that an already remarkably able multi-tasking processor could focus on program code. Amazing stuff.
Today's NG Amiga like systems have only become more PC like because PCs have become so much more like the Amiga.
Myself, in the late '80s and early '90's, I was managing a company that sold multi-user 68K based systems that out of the box supported four users and could support a fifth (that could use an X-Window based windowing system called G-Windows) by adding a video card, keyboard, and mouse.
We weren't aimming at the Amiga market, we were selling to business.
The base price for our systems started at under $1000. We also offered a V30 card for the system that gave it PC compatibility.
I can remember demoing our POS system to IBM engineers and getting favorable comparisons to the mainframe systems.
Its funny, at the time they still considered their own PCs as little more than smart terminals.
Via these same connections, we obtained beta copies of Win 3.0 (no, not 3.1 - 3.0). I had this GUI running on our machines (along with our own software) when PC could barely be considered multi-tasking capable (let alone multi-user).
It makes you wonder how IBM and Motorola could allow a second rate manufacturer of calculator processors to overtake them and become the leading producer of PC processors. I mean Intel processor were SO bad at first.
If IBM had just produced their own processor (but then all the original PC components - hardware and software - were outsourced) or if IBM had gone to a larger company (like Motorola) then everything would be so much different today.

I never expected Intel based PCs to become a standard. But then, the way they became a standard is pretty odd, an totally unintended anyway.
IBM didn't insist on an exclusive license to MS-DOS (aka IBM-DOS)
Bill Gates was smart enough to retain his right to sell MS-DOS.
And since IBM assumed that with a patented BIOS limiting compatiblity to  their hardware and software no one could clone the PC that they would retain control of their own market.
Between their BIG loss (controlling the PC market) and their second loss (as a supplier of processors to Apple) is it any wonder that IBM doesn't want a part of the PC market today?
Did any of you consider that those losses might have somrthing to do with their reluctance to market the Cell, its derivitives, or future PPCs toward the personal computer market?

Its funny, the company actually builds pretty good products, they're more open than some companies (Ie Marvell or Applied Micro), and they've managed to get the contracts to supply all three of the major game consoles with PPC related processor (two of which work faster than their last G5 desktop processor).

Do I remember the Amiga? Yes, everytime I look at a PC and more importantly ever time I see a game console.
What does a PS3 or an XBOX360 remind you of? Me? There CD32's in need of a keyboard and mouse.

The thing that TOTALLY pisses me off is this. Amiga? Heck its all around us.

Steve Jobs acts like everything he's introduced since he took over while Woz's Apple II was dying a prolonged death wasn't handed to him via Xerox's PARC program.

Bill gates likes to pretend he did steal his original product (not only did he, but what he didn't pay for was still just a shoddy CPM rip off).

And the first real multimedia computer marketed to the consumer market? Lorraine just gets no respect.


Yes, it's sad and frustrating to see superior technologies fall by the wayside.  The 68K WAS superior to the other processors out there in its day.  Unfortunately, the best doesn't always succeed or get adopted my the consumer.  I remember the days when Betamax was superior to anything VHS had to offer, but due to marketing hype, Betamax fell into obscurity even though VHS was inferior.  I see the same thing today with Apple.  Steve Jobs is constantly on the offense telling the world how his products are superior and how Apple did it first, blah, blah blah...And just like politics, if you say it loud enough and long enough people will begin to believe it, at least the un-informed people anyway.  I'm amazed even by some of my Apple-fanatic friends, who will insist that a MacBook is superior in every way to a comparable Windows laptop even though the components are identical in both systems.  Perception is everything.....unfortunately.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2010, 03:55:19 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;588461
blah, blah blah...And just like politics, if you say it loud enough and long enough people will begin to believe it, at least the un-informed people anyway.

I woke up to this today.
Thanks for making my day start on a high note. Amuzing and Oh so very true.
Apparently politicians  and their backers think if the throw enough money into an election, they can buy our vote. They even think they can lie with impunity, waffle on possitions, and distort their opponent's records.
The funny thing is, I think their turn it up to 11 strategy may be back firing Americans can be lazy and ignorant at times, but we don't like be taken for stupid too often. You know in my State, the Tea Party (whoever the heck they really are) managed to rout the only Republican I was voting for this year (Mike Castle) and replaced him with national embarassiment Christine O'Donnell. (and I wish she would stop saying "I'm you", its goving me an identity crysis)
We, as a peoplw, can make some bad choices, but this year I feel pretty confident that altough its been taken for granted that we can be easily manipulated - WE aren't that stupid.


OH, wait a minute! This is an Amiga forum.
Your point about computer and electronic trends was dead on too. Often the best technology doesn't succeed. I hada friend with a Super Beatmax. Neat final gasp for that system. Unbelievably good sound quality, but very few commercial tapes available.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: ferrellsl on November 01, 2010, 04:23:58 PM
Quote from: Iggy;588487
I woke up to this today.
Thanks for making my day start on a high note. Amuzing and Oh so very true.
Apparently politicians  and their backers think if the throw enough money into an election, they can buy our vote. They even think they can lie with impunity, waffle on possitions, and distort their opponent's records.
The funny thing is, I think their turn it up to 11 strategy may be back firing Americans can be lazy and ignorant at times, but we don't like be taken for stupid too often. You know in my State, the Tea Party (whoever the heck they really are) managed to rout the only Republican I was voting for this year (Mike Castle) and replaced him with national embarassiment Christine O'Donnell. (and I wish she would stop saying "I'm you", its goving me an identity crysis)
We, as a peoplw, can make some bad choices, but this year I feel pretty confident that altough its been taken for granted that we can be easily manipulated - WE aren't that stupid.


OH, wait a minute! This is an Amiga forum.
Your point about computer and electronic trends was dead on too. Often the best technology doesn't succeed. I hada friend with a Super Beatmax. Neat final gasp for that system. Unbelievably good sound quality, but very few commercial tapes available.


I don't believe that Americans are all that stupid either.  I think most Americans are just too distracted most of the time to pay attention to what their elected officials are REALLY doing.....It's a near total lack of oversight and accountability.  But your remarks bring to mind mind a funny quote that I heard recently that applies to democracies, lynch mobs, rugby matches, etc...., "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."  Probably attributable to some conniving politician!  LOL
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2010, 05:17:02 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;588496
I don't believe that Americans are all that stupid either.  I think most Americans are just too distracted most of the time to pay attention to what their elected officials are REALLY doing.....It's a near total lack of oversight and accountability.  But your remarks bring to mind mind a funny quote that I heard recently that applies to democracies, lynch mobs, rugby matches, etc...., "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."  Probably attributable to some conniving politician!  LOL

Thats a great quote. I've already repeated that one to a few people around me.
In the case of my State's own candidate, Christine O'Donnell, I like "Never vote for someone who looks like they could use the work".

In the end, we really only have ourselves to blame for the how our political system has deteriorated. After all, they only represent US (or they're SUPPOSED to). I think your point about our attention span is dead on.
In the country with the best set of laws designed to guarentee our liberty, we have forgotten our obligation to pay attention to what our politicians do (in our name) and to hold them accountable when they don't act in our best interests.

I think over the next few cycles, politicians may be in for a rude awakening. They've sunk SO low, that polls ranks them lower in trustworthiness than used car salesmen.
From now on, I'm voting for the candidates that aren't trying to manipulate me with fear, anger, or attacks on his/her opponent. The ones who are willing to state and defend their opinions.

And it is seriously time to restructure campaign financing.

But hey, in this year of yet another bitter, ugly political campaigning, isn't it cool how many developments are occuring in our sphere of interest.
Sure, you may not think this or that endeavor in the Amiga market is ideal, but we are seeing real developments!
And the cool part is virtually none of them have anything to do with Amiga Inc.

We have seen the light and realized that the name/license/badge is less important than aimming to achieve what WE want. And we have multiple projects all aimmed at realizing these goals!

Doesn't everyone here, regardless of personal favorites, get the same thrill I do when they realise WE'RE in control now?
We're not waiting for the fullfillment of empty promises anymore. We can be a contentious group, but I'm beginning to see some cohesion.
Regardless of platform, we know what an Amiga is, and even if Bill McEwen can license the name to someone putting stickers on someone elses X86 machinces, we know what it is not  (unless WE choose to install the software/OS WE have developed for it - and then maybe...).

As frightening as these times can be, sometimes things ARE looking up.
It might even restore my faith in humanity (if I had any left).

First maxim - Frequently (far TOO frequently) we can expect our fellow men (and women) to do the DUMBEST thing possible.

Second Maxim - Just when you're about to conclude that the entire human race is a bunch of misdirected F'ups, someone will do something not just right but remarkably well.

Third Maxim - The difference between the two? Just a little thought, care, and introspection. We are not dumb, just lazy and self centered.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: lsmart on November 01, 2010, 08:07:38 PM
Quote from: Iggy;588407

The Amiga 3000 was produced for a more limited market by one company. 386 motherboards/systems were produced many manufacturers for a larger, more competive market.


That´s my point. Apples user base seems huge if compared to people shopping for NG-Amigas. If they sell their Power Mac entry level box for $2500 it is easy for them to put a 6 core CPU in and redesign the case to make the fans go extra noiseless.

When the Amiga 3000 was rumored many of my friends were hoping to get one until they heared the price. They expected it to be more expensive than the $1300 Amiga 2000, but they didn´t expect more than $3000. And of course - when the A3000 was finally out (It was late) they were comparing it to OS/2 boxes - that also did have real multitasking, Truecolor VGA gfx and higher clock speeds.

I think the A3000 is one of the greatest computers ever - I own one since 1993. But not everyone shares/shared my enthusiasm. I for one wouldn´t bash the X1000 for being late and expensive.

DISCLAIMER: I live in germany and the prices in my posts are calculated with different exchange rates at different times. They might substantially differ from what you were experiencing in your part of the world.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 01, 2010, 10:11:34 PM
Quote from: lsmart;588558
That´s my point. Apples user base seems huge if compared to people shopping for NG-Amigas. If they sell their Power Mac entry level box for $2500 it is easy for them to put a 6 core CPU in and redesign the case to make the fans go extra noiseless.

When the Amiga 3000 was rumored many of my friends were hoping to get one until they heared the price. They expected it to be more expensive than the $1300 Amiga 2000, but they didn´t expect more than $3000. And of course - when the A3000 was finally out (It was late) they were comparing it to OS/2 boxes - that also did have real multitasking, Truecolor VGA gfx and higher clock speeds.

I think the A3000 is one of the greatest computers ever - I own one since 1993. But not everyone shares/shared my enthusiasm. I for one wouldn´t bash the X1000 for being late and expensive.

DISCLAIMER: I live in germany and the prices in my posts are calculated with different exchange rates at different times. They might substantially differ from what you were experiencing in your part of the world.


I'd say you've made a good arguement about the parallels betwenn these two situations. Further, the Amiga 3000 used a relatively common, easily obtained processor and had a much bigger market (and far higher sales).
The X1000 is what it is. A little too expensive, a little too late, and maybe uncompetitive with hardware on other platforms.

But would I take one if it was offered to me? In a flash.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 02, 2010, 04:09:20 AM
How about a 2Ghz ARM processor based Soc?
NuSmart 2816 40nm Soc by Chinese company Beijing Nufront.

Of course its not available yet, but it is supposedly going to be introduced in 2011.
Scary! Could the future of processors be found in China, not California?

http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/

http://www.nufrontsoft.com/cscen.htm
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: the_leander on November 02, 2010, 04:18:28 AM
Quote from: Iggy;588690
How about a 2Ghz ARM processor based Soc?
NuSmart 2816 40nm Soc by Chinese company Beijing Nufront.

Of course its not available yet, but it is supposedly going to be introduced in 2011.
Scary! Could the future of processors be found in China, not California?

http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/

http://www.nufrontsoft.com/cscen.htm


California hasn't been at the forfront for years. The Core line was designed by Intel Israel, for instance. Many of the ARM designs come from Japan, Taiwan etc and have done for years. China has for a long time worked on their own stuff, though previously I've seen it on MIPS based processors rather than ARM.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Franko on November 02, 2010, 04:19:48 AM
Quote from: Iggy;588690
How about a 2Ghz ARM processor based Soc?
NuSmart 2816 40nm Soc by Chinese company Beijing Nufront.

Of course its not available yet, but it is supposedly going to be introduced in 2011.
Scary! Could the future of processors be found in China, not California?

http://www.slashgear.com/nufront-nusmart-2815-2ghz-arm-cortex-a9-looks-to-squash-tegra-2-video-14102190/

http://www.nufrontsoft.com/cscen.htm


That NuSmart processors spec's is pretty impressive, like most electronic products of today and the future, China will and are becoming the world leaders in production/costs (even if they do nick the R&D from other countries) :)
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 02, 2010, 02:42:51 PM
Quote from: the_leander;588692
California hasn't been at the forfront for years. The Core line was designed by Intel Israel, for instance. .

Thank God for that shift too. The previous banner carrier for Intel, the Netburst/P4, was lame out the door. I remember suggesting to a former employer that he get a Tualatin based PIII or Celeron as they were benchmarking better than P4s running 25% faster.

Intels design staff must have misinterpreted Moore's Law. They actually tought they could scale Netburst up to 10Ghz. I'm pretty sure Moore's Law applies to complexity, not clockspeed.

For a while there, AMD was outperforming Intel.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Fats on November 02, 2010, 11:40:35 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;588461
I remember the days when Betamax was superior to anything VHS had to offer, but due to marketing hype, Betamax fell into obscurity even though VHS was inferior.


I don't think this is a good example. It is true that VHS picture quality is less than Betamax but the latter had problems with the life time of the magnetic heads and at the moment this was fixed VHS had already won.
But I think this is a good example that being superior in one front and lacking in another is not better than being good enough on all fronts.

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Reiknir on November 03, 2010, 02:20:27 AM
Quote from: the_leander;588692
California hasn't been at the forfront for years. The Core line was designed by Intel Israel.


No, Intel Israel reworked the P-Mobile core into the Intel Atom

The Core chips are designed by Intel USA
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 03, 2010, 03:15:15 AM
Quote from: Reiknir;588930
No, Intel Israel reworked the P-Mobile core into the Intel Atom

The Core chips are designed by Intel USA

No, that's wrong. When Intel finally decided to scrap the Netburst/P4, they incorporated many of the features of their Isreali designed mobile processors (which were descended from the PIII) with some of the bus features of the P4.

The Isreali Intel designers were essential in the design of the Core Duo.

The Atom, on the other hand, is Intels attempt to force X86 down into markets formerly dominated by ARM. Its not very powerful (compared to current processors) but designers have realized that many user don't require all the power that our constantly improving CPU offer. I really don't think Intel has devoted much of its resources to the Atom as it doesn't bring them the kind of profits that the rest of their line does.

But, give credit where its due. The P4 was designed by US Intel designers and it cost the company the lead t(in performance) to AMD.
Intel finally realized it needed to change direction and focused on the Isreali Dothan socket479 processor as it base.

So, yes, the Isreali design team was responsible for Core development.





,
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Hattig on November 03, 2010, 12:26:30 PM
Quote from: Iggy;588690
How about a 2Ghz ARM processor based Soc?
NuSmart 2816 40nm Soc by Chinese company Beijing Nufront.
Of course its not available yet, but it is supposedly going to be introduced in 2011.
Scary! Could the future of processors be found in China, not California?


Every standard ARM core is designed in Cambridge, England.

Marvell have an ISA license, so their cores are custom (evolution of the StrongARM -> XScale lineage) but are binary compatible. Qualcomm similarly have an ISA license. They produce Snapdragon cores as used in many phones.

Other cores use the off-the-shelf core designs that ARM produces, from hard macros to cores expressed in HDL.

The success of ARM is because of the myriad of different designs available based around the ISA or licenced core designs.
Title: Re: Another Retro Computer returns from the ashes
Post by: Iggy on November 03, 2010, 08:20:26 PM
Quote from: Hattig;589000
Every standard ARM core is designed in Cambridge, England.

Marvell have an ISA license, so their cores are custom (evolution of the StrongARM -> XScale lineage) but are binary compatible. Qualcomm similarly have an ISA license. They produce Snapdragon cores as used in many phones.

Other cores use the off-the-shelf core designs that ARM produces, from hard macros to cores expressed in HDL.

The success of ARM is because of the myriad of different designs available based around the ISA or licenced core designs.


I'm not sure I understand your point. If you read my post, I never suggested that they designed the ARM core. Just that they appeared to be readying one of the fastest A9 based Socs.