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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: DiskDoctor on February 12, 2009, 06:37:18 PM

Title: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 12, 2009, 06:37:18 PM
Hi, all

I just tried to install PocketUAE on my HTC S710 WM6 Smart device and it failed.  Seems to be for older platforms and abandoned project.

On the other hand, I see many Amiga games ported and SOLD heavily on various cell platforms (e.g. Lemmings on Nokia S40 or Symbian s60v3).  Mobile entertainment makers rely on arcade games because it seamlessly fits into mobile capabilities / feel.  The point is that they lack ideas really, I saw already fancy Bobberman (from NES), also Arkanoid (rich graphics though).

I think it is really stupid to simply let go - without Amiga Emulator on a cellphone.

I encountered two projects yet, the said PocketUAE (http://pocketinsanity.org/web/pocketinsanity/Projects/PocketUAE/) not working on recent WM phones, also MyUAE (http://myuae.sourceforge.net/) for PalmOS (didn't test it, my Palm is dead for years...)

Let's face it.  Mobile smartphones' penetration gets bigger, thank to subsides, mobile people are spending significant $$$$ on gaming (17B$ in 2006 - consider this!).  I think ANY Amiga / xxUAE / mobile software developer should consider making Amiga emulation for cellphones.  Maybe it would boost it if it was a proprietary software, (mobile people, not necessarily Amiga people would spend a lot on it), eventually donationware.

Mobile smart platforms nowadays:
- Symbian (S60/UIQ): strong enough on a smartphone market (??q)
- Windows Mobile: strong and rapidly growing (10M in 2006)
- iPhone (OSX): significant and growing (6M in 2006)
- BlackBerry OS: high-end in Europe, small share outside US
- PalmOS: dying if not dead already
- others: Linuxes (JUIX, Android etc.) or J2ME: ain't worth it

*EDIT - this is rather of 2007 year statistics - sorry for that :)

So I think anyone trying to make Amiga emulator for any of the three toppest systems would 1) earn a lot of money (hopefully) 2) make something of high-vallue-added and lots of fun for the community...

OK, I know, I know.  What can I do about it, right?
Well, I am a programmer, too, having some time, but never been developing on mobile.  Doing it from a scratch would cost me lots of time.  Should somebody help...

Comments anybody?

BTW - consider this if You do not like this proprietary thing idea: buy once, play 1000 games free!!!  This is really justified for me.

*EDIT - Also, Amiga emulation on cellphones would SURELY make an Amiga platform alone more recognizable... and more popular!!!!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: McVenco on February 12, 2009, 06:51:26 PM
Would be cool if there was an Amiga emulator for Windows mobile. I got myself a Sony Ericsson XPeria X1 today, and I could do with some nice classic games to run on it :-)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: gurthuk on February 12, 2009, 07:13:19 PM
what's a cellphone?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: gurthuk on February 12, 2009, 07:14:31 PM
on a serious note why bother - would it not be simpler to developer applications for the native OS?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 12, 2009, 07:23:31 PM
Quote

gurthuk wrote:
what's a cellphone?


Is this a joke or what?

As far as I know cellular phone and mobile phone names differ in UK English and US English actually.

So, what's the point?  Fun?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Tension on February 12, 2009, 09:13:27 PM
What`s an amoeba anyway?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Pyromania on February 12, 2009, 09:43:56 PM
@DiskDoctor

Nice post except for the Windows Mobile part. Win Mobile is almost already dead and it would be a waste to put any resources there. Amiga Forever could have features added to the next version to support Amiga emulation on cell phones if it's developer is interested in going that route.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 12, 2009, 10:09:50 PM
I would love UAE on my mobile phone!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Fransexy_ on February 12, 2009, 10:28:47 PM
Quote

Pyromania wrote:
@DiskDoctor

Nice post except for the Windows Mobile part. Win Mobile is almost already dead and it would be a waste to put any resources there. Amiga Forever could have features added to the next version to support Amiga emulation on cell phones if it's developer is interested in going that route.


Exactly; there is LiMo (LInux MObile), Android and the recent PALM's WebOS that are diferent flavours of Linux for mobiles devices so it would not be so difficult port linux EUAE for them.Another matter is optimization and use of the extra cellphone features, but, step by
step

And it will fly on the new ARM 1 GHZ based cellphones

http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/1005/Cortex_a8.htm
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/02/03/toshiba.tg01/
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 12, 2009, 10:58:46 PM
Quote

gurthuk wrote:
on a serious note why bother - would it not be simpler to developer applications for the native OS?


What d'you mean by native OSes and applications?  DIstinct games ported to any mobile platform?  This is done now, I meant creating emulation software.  So that one wouldn't bother anymore to run another Amiga game.  Once done, all classic Amiga gaming would be freed.

Quote

Tension wrote:
What`s an amoeba anyway?

This is really a good one!


Quote

Pyromania wrote:
Nice post except for the Windows Mobile part. Win Mobile is almost already dead and it would be a waste to put any resources there. Amiga Forever could have features added to the next version to support Amiga emulation on cell phones if it's developer is interested in going that route.


You're kidding me?? Take a look at 2007/2008 and such vedors: HTC, Samsung (i600, i780 and more), SE (X1), Motorola (Q9h), also Toshiba, ASUS, tons of stuff.  Even the bloody Palm started releasing most of its hardware equipped with windows...

I think in two years maybe WinMobile will have majority of smartphone market share.  So it's really worth it.

On the other hand Symbian is as much important, don't think anything will change in a few years...

I really hope the AmigaForever guys will sniff some $$ out eventually here.

Quote

Exactly; there is LiMo (LInux MObile), Android and the recent PALM's WebOS that are diferent flavours of Linux for mobiles devices so it would not be so difficult port linux EUAE for them.Another matter is optimization and use of the extra cellphone features, but, step by
step


This is most probably the closest way to achieve as you said, Linux is most flexible to port UAE on Linux-like mobile OSes.

EDIT*
Quote
And it will fly on the new ARM 1 GHZ based cellphones


Say, my mobile almost outperforms the Sam...
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 13, 2009, 12:39:05 PM
Even though I'm a big iPhone fan I can't see the iPhone holding it's lead forever.  But Windows Mobile is horrible, most people can't figure out how to make it work, nut already there are programs you can run that take away most of the horrors of running it.

I would like to see three versions of UAE, one for iPhone, one for Windows Mobile and one for a Linux, possibly Android.

As somebody pointed out most phones are about as powerful as Sam (at a fraction of the price) so UAE and Classic Amiga stuff should be about as fast on a Mobile as they are on a Sam....

Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 12:57:07 PM
I used to run PocketUAE on my HP iPAQ 4150, it ran at about A500 speed. Quite good really. I wouldn't mind UAE on my iPhone, but Apple don't allow Emulators at this time (I expect apple will review this policy in time), but I would only use it for bragging rights mostly... Actual ports to the native system is more desireable IMO, take note of Pinball Dreams which is a faithful port and the gfx have been improved for the more advanced gfx of the iPhone!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 03:14:33 PM
@ persia

Why do all of you hate Windows Mobile platform huh?

I mean... I also used to dislike this.  My wife had this HTC with qwerty keyboard for over a year but recently I simply stole it and gave her my Nokia E65.

I know WM is really dull compared for Symbian feel / performance / support.
But hey, those cells start ruling the world!!  With Microsoft support, also targeted for business (Exchange/ActiveSyns/DirectPush technology), it's getting closer to the consumer.  Also, after iPhone launch, all of a sudden, ALL mobile players started making clones of it! HTC has a new WM Touch line, roughly positioned close to iPhone audience and it works; last year in my country I saw ads of HTC Touch as a phone for women(!).

One more thing - in last two years ALL the other mobile vendors started to support WM - Samsung (i600), LG (KS20), Motorola (Q9h), SE (X1) - expect lot more this year.  So that would be my choice.  It's not about preference, it's about platform's potential.

So yes, win mobile is dull but at least - it is more stable and growing.  Consider also one thing. Windows Mobile Professional edition has a touch UI design.  So all (most) touch cell phones with OSes now are WM Pros, plus iPhone, maybe one Nokia more.  This is crucial while attempt to emulate mouse - gets closer to the desktop as Palm/iPaq palmtops were those days...

Why no one mentions Symbian for a change?  iPhone share gets still, there are two Google phones to date (one made in Australia) , this is really little... Other Linuxes... I know Motorola has a few Linux/JUIX phones (like Z8) but... I cannot imagine Amiga on it.

@ bloodline

Apple did "release" their iPhone OSX system some months after launch so yes, it is now FULLY open for developers.  So you could make anything to work on iPhone, Apple Inc. wouldn't mind really.

Native ports... how many?  And sum all the figure$... :(
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 03:25:21 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
@ persia

Why do all of you hate Windows Mobile platform huh?

I mean... I also used to dislike this.  My wife had this HTC with qwerty keyboard for over a year but recently I simply stole it and gave her my Nokia E65.

I know WM is really dull compared for Symbian feel / performance / support.
But hey, those cells start ruling the world!!  With Microsoft support, also targeted for business (Exchange/ActiveSyns/DirectPush technology), it's getting closer to the consumer.  Also, after iPhone launch, all of a sudden, ALL mobile players started making clones of it! HTC has a new WM Touch line, roughly positioned close to iPhone audience and it works; last year in my country I saw ads of HTC Touch as a phone for women(!).

One more thing - in last two years ALL the other mobile vendors started to support WM - Samsung (i600), LG (KS20), Motorola (Q9h), SE (X1) - expect lot more this year.  So that would be my choice.  It's not about preference, it's about platform's potential.

So yes, win mobile is dull but at least - it is more stable and growing.  Consider also one thing. Windows Mobile Professional edition has a touch UI design.  So all (most) touch cell phones with OSes now are WM Pros, plus iPhone, maybe one Nokia more.  This is crucial while attempt to emulate mouse - gets closer to the desktop as Palm/iPaq palmtops were those days...


WinMobile is a horrible and dated OS... M$ have a dinosaur with it... it's not as nice as either Symbian or OSX... I have yet to use Linux (aka android etc) on a mobile platform

Quote

Why no one mentions Symbian for a change?  iPhone share gets still, there are two Google phones to date (one made in Australia) , this is really little... Other Linuxes... I know Motorola has a few Linux/JUIX phones (like Z8) but... I cannot imagine Amiga on it.

@ bloodline

Apple did "release" their iPhone OSX system some months after launch so yes, it is now FULLY open for developers.  So you could make anything to work on iPhone, Apple Inc. wouldn't mind really.


You are quite right, I can develop anything I like. I have the iPhone SDK here. But I can only distribute my Apps to other iPhone (and iPod touch) users via Apple. I can give my app to 100 other people, as per my SDK licence, and as long as I can have physical access to their phone/ipod...

Apple will not publish an App that violates their Terms and conditions. And right now their terms and condition do NOT allow Emualtors.

Quote

Native ports... how many?  And sum all the figure$... :(


There are over 20000 Apps avaiable for the iPhone/Ipod touch, right now... I can't count them all...
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 03:51:12 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

WinMobile is a horrible and dated OS... M$ have a dinosaur with it... it's not as nice as either Symbian or OSX... I have yet to use Linux (aka android etc) on a mobile platform


I DO agree it's dull and targeted to elderly mid-level managers but, as I was saying...  It is a matter of a market share, for a start.  If it succeeds, you will notice mobileUAE on all the platforms, all of a sudden...

WinMobile Shmobile... but if it (UAE) works...  One guy here (did you?) mentioned Pocket UAE was cool on old Pocket PC.  So what's the story?  Hatred to Bill??

Quote

You are quite right, I can develop anything I like. I have the iPhone SDK here. But I can only distribute my Apps to other iPhone (and iPod touch) users via Apple. I can give my app to 100 other people, as per my SDK licence, and as long as I can have physical access to their phone/ipod...

Apple will not publish an App that violates their Terms and conditions. And right now their terms and condition do NOT allow Emualtors.



This sucks then, but... what makes an emulator an emulator???  If you sell iUAE BUNDELED and bound with specific game blah blah blah... it is not an emulator anymore!! :) Like this iPhone Pinball Dreams mentioned here... And Apple lawyers could then go and funk theirselves!

Quote
Quote

Native ports... how many?  And sum all the figure$... :(


There are over 20000 Apps avaiable for the iPhone/Ipod touch, right now... I can't count them all...


True but what I meant was the amount of $$ that has (will/would) to be spent to have a 50-games Amiga collection "for the native os" - 500$??
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 04:19:43 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

WinMobile is a horrible and dated OS... M$ have a dinosaur with it... it's not as nice as either Symbian or OSX... I have yet to use Linux (aka android etc) on a mobile platform


I DO agree it's dull and targeted to elderly mid-level managers but, as I was saying...  It is a matter of a market share, for a start.  If it succeeds, you will notice mobileUAE on all the platforms, all of a sudden...


It has nothing to do with Being dull... it's old, it uses old paradigms, old APIs... imagine running Win3.11 on your latest PC... That's what WinMobile is like, when compared with modern Mobile OSs... like OSX for example.

Quote

WinMobile Shmobile... but if it (UAE) works...  One guy here (did you?) mentioned Pocket UAE was cool on old Pocket PC.  So what's the story?  Hatred to Bill??


??? :-? Yes, I used to run PocketUAE on my old iPAQ 4150... so what? Amiga software isn't suited to the mobile platform, they prefer joysticks, mice and keyboards... not touch screens... Amiga software is not meant to be used in a mobile environment and really needs reworking to get the best out of it... you can search the photo archive on this site to see photos of my running PocketUAE, games and the OS.

Amiga software, via UAE/etc... is not going to be popular on any mobile platform FULL STOP... Also I like my mobile games to be 3D now... it's just more fun on my iPhone.

Quote

Quote

You are quite right, I can develop anything I like. I have the iPhone SDK here. But I can only distribute my Apps to other iPhone (and iPod touch) users via Apple. I can give my app to 100 other people, as per my SDK licence, and as long as I can have physical access to their phone/ipod...

Apple will not publish an App that violates their Terms and conditions. And right now their terms and condition do NOT allow Emualtors.



This sucks then, but... what makes an emulator an emulator???  If you sell iUAE BUNDELED and bound with specific game blah blah blah... it is not an emulator anymore!! :) Like this iPhone Pinball Dreams mentioned here... And Apple lawyers could then go and funk theirselves!


Read the SDK licence, you basically can't interpret code via any other method than using the APIs and Frameworks provided by Apple... and until Apple provide a 68k emu framework with OSX... that puts UAE out...

Quote

Quote
Quote

Native ports... how many?  And sum all the figure$... :(


There are over 20000 Apps avaiable for the iPhone/Ipod touch, right now... I can't count them all...


True but what I meant was the amount of $$ that has (will/would) to be spent to have a 50-games Amiga collection "for the native os" - 500$??


Oh... no idea... if you had the original source and data files... it probably wouldn't take more than a month to port an Amiga game to the iPhone... a bit longer to beta test it... Most amiga Games were not that complex...
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: LoadWB on February 13, 2009, 04:38:57 PM
Quote
Pyromania wrote:
@DiskDoctor

Nice post except for the Windows Mobile part. Win Mobile is almost already dead and it would be a waste to put any resources there. Amiga Forever could have features added to the next version to support Amiga emulation on cell phones if it's developer is interested in going that route.


You kidding me?  Windows Mobile is all over the business world.  There are multiple vendors supporting it and, in my experience, there is nothing yet that compares in business functionality -- Exchange ActiveSync, Pocket Office applications, and a familiar interface for the technically unadaptable.

Now, I know EAS is licensed by Apple and works well on the iPhone, and kind-of works on PalmOS.  I have discovered that almost all of my customers who started "playing" with the iPhone went back to their Windows Mobile when the novelty wore off: drastically different and unfamiliar interface, cannot load wanted software (Garmin, etc.,) and restrictive software installation policies.  Plus, the remote wipe and security control feature is very well appreciated.

Windows Mobile 6.2 is available now, and Windows Mobile 7, which is expected to be a convergence between the Zune and smart-phone paradigms is expected very soon.  The Zune aspect will be a long sought-after media capability for the WM operating system.

So, no, WM is far from dead.  The iPhone still has a little ways to catch up before it will be an all-around contender, as does LiMo and Android.  Microsoft and RIM (BlackBerry) have the all-inclusive solutions right now, and are really the only major competition for each other.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: LoadWB on February 13, 2009, 04:43:00 PM
Quote
bloodline wrote:

Amiga software, via UAE/etc... is not going to be popular on any mobile platform FULL STOP... Also I like my mobile games to be 3D now... it's just more fun on my iPhone.


Are you not, then, completely ignoring the success of the so-called "retro" games market?  Retro-arcade bundles and downloadable games for consoles are doing very well.  Not to mention the MAME universe, and so on.

A good game does not rely solely on its graphics abilities, but on the timelessness, ingenuity, and playability of the game.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 04:51:06 PM
Quote

LoadWB wrote:
Quote
bloodline wrote:

Amiga software, via UAE/etc... is not going to be popular on any mobile platform FULL STOP... Also I like my mobile games to be 3D now... it's just more fun on my iPhone.


Are you not, then, completely ignoring the success of the so-called "retro" games market?  Retro-arcade bundles and downloadable games for consoles are doing very well.  Not to mention the MAME universe, and so on.

A good game does not rely solely on its graphics abilities, but on the timelessness, ingenuity, and playability of the game.


I said nothing about the quality of gfx provided Amiga games! Reread my post! The input method of Amiga games needs to be reworked for mobile platforms, which are predominantly touch screen!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 05:57:44 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

It has nothing to do with Being dull... it's old, it uses old paradigms, old APIs... imagine running Win3.11 on your latest PC... That's what WinMobile is like, when compared with modern Mobile OSs... like OSX for example



This is actually 99% true, I do not claim Windows Mobile is a good technology (it used to be 8 years ago), all I say is IT/mUAE WOULD WORK fine! Check out recent WM games!  They're cool and 3D as well.  Or maybe... I'm such an IT ignorant I cannot comprehend the difference between native/API-using software and a virtual machine which any emulator in fact is... My apologies if this is the case, always learning something... especially here.

Quote


???  Yes, I used to run PocketUAE on my old iPAQ 4150... so what? Amiga software isn't suited to the mobile platform, they prefer joysticks, mice and keyboards... not touch screens... Amiga software is not meant to be used in a mobile environment and really needs reworking to get the best out of it... you can search the photo archive on this site to see photos of my running PocketUAE, games and the OS.



Then how can you explain sales of mobile arcade games' figures???
Don't give up on mobile!!  It will, too, eventually get you.

Quote


Amiga software, via UAE/etc... is not going to be popular on any mobile platform FULL STOP... Also I like my mobile games to be 3D now... it's just more fun on my iPhone.



Amiga software IS popular on mobile. Or at least is significantly present there.

Quote


Read the SDK licence, you basically can't interpret code via any other method than using the APIs and Frameworks provided by Apple... and until Apple provide a 68k emu framework with OSX... that puts UAE out...



You say... I say... how about making a complier (www site/service) that combines m-UAE, any Amiga classic / adf game, yielding mobile OS proper API-compliant binary??  How's that hack?  Native binary, man, Apple lawyers would have to shove this very license of theirs  up their you-know-where.

*

As for the proper (non-emulated) Amiga games' direct porting...  This is effort anyway, this month or so you're mentioning.  Doing it once - fine.  Do it every time... no one would!  I'm telling you... There are, really, some 10-15 mobile Amiga games already.  I want a 100.

Quote

LoadWB wrote:

You kidding me? Windows Mobile is all over the business world. There are multiple vendors supporting it and, in my experience, there is nothing yet that compares in business functionality -- Exchange ActiveSync, Pocket Office applications, and a familiar interface for the technically unadaptable.



That's my man!  But seriously: (1) I am far from adoring WM (2) I cannot deny facts or figures about its market presence (3) I really bet on it as a highest growth/share next 3 years.

Quote


A good game does not rely solely on its graphics abilities, but on the timelessness, ingenuity, and playability of the game.



That's right. UI/graphics is just a matter of implementation, compliant or not.  

Quote

bloodline wrote then:

I said nothing about the quality of gfx provided Amiga games! Reread my post! The input method of Amiga games needs to be reworked for mobile platforms, which are predominantly touch screen!



I had Lemmings on my N 6230i s40 device reworked as using joypad instead of mouse...  Seriously, most (90%) Amiga/arcade games used digi joystick - almost all cellphones, not necessarily smart ones have one already.

So doesn't seem a problem to me.  If throng of people can have fun on playing mobile games, they would have even more fun playing those of Amiga.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 13, 2009, 06:35:42 PM
My impressions come from running Windows Mobile 6.1 on an HTC Kaiser.  It sucks bigtime compared to iPhone, only a little script called iFonz made it tolerable.  It is a lot like MS Windows 3.11, it's like a desktop computer on a phone, you are forever using that idiotic stylus.  

It was only after the Kaiser experience that I understood why iPhone sells more than WM phones.

On a positve note. I haven't actually sold the Kaiser yet so I've been playing with Android on it (yes it does work - to a certain extent, I flashed it with a lighter rom and it boots directly into Android.  Sometimes for kicks I even put my SIM card into it and make a call or two...
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 07:01:05 PM
WM sucks thoroughly compared for iPhone, also Symbian, Android maybe.

But we're off the topic now --> I can talk but let us shift to the other forum since it is about emulation :)

My summary on UAE mobile again:

- Windows Mobile: targeted for business mainly, big figures sold, high growth, lots of devices and vendors already, reliable and stable system, current games are great, despite of the whole system mUAE would work fast and smooth
- iPhone OSX: best gaming performance (ever!), significant market share (3rd not counting BB), but legal issues
- Linux (what's a LiMO anyway?): good idea, several handhelds but yet too few, future uncertain (remember Linux), UAE seamless portability
- Symbian: main WM rival, nice devices (mainly Nokia, some SE, a few Motorola and Samsung), great UI / performance (worse than iPhone, though), great gaming / dev capabilities, my 2nd favorite
- BlackBerry: not a mortal man uses it, except for the US
- PalmOS: dead and PalmWEB changed flags to Linux
- J2ME: no controll over device UI, low-end etc...

I really hope (and would donate such project or do some myself) this whole mUAE idea works.

Remember: This may be a GREAT CHANCE FOR AMIGA TO APPEAR ALL OVER AGAIN!
Tomorrow. On a mobile near you.

*EDIT Would someone PLEASE help me on these smilies/saddies?? I don't get it how to place them.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: warpdesign on February 13, 2009, 07:26:35 PM
Quote

Also, Amiga emulation on cellphones would SURELY make an Amiga platform alone more recognizable... and more popular!!!!

How the hell would Amiga emulation make Amiga more popular ?

Btw, sounds like a McEwen speech: have you ever considered working for him ?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 07:32:31 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
WM sucks thoroughly compared for iPhone, also Symbian, Android maybe.

But we're off the topic now --> I can talk but let us shift to the other forum since it is about emulation :)

My summary on UAE mobile again:

- Windows Mobile: targeted for business mainly, big figures sold, high growth, lots of devices and vendors already, reliable and stable system, current games are great, despite of the whole system mUAE would work fast and smooth


Well PocketUAE is here now for WM... it has been around since 2004... it has never been popular.

Quote

- iPhone OSX: best gaming performance (ever!), significant market share (3rd not counting BB), but legal issues
- Linux (what's a LiMO anyway?): good idea, several handhelds but yet too few, future uncertain (remember Linux), UAE seamless portability
- Symbian: main WM rival, nice devices (mainly Nokia, some SE, a few Motorola and Samsung), great UI / performance (worse than iPhone, though), great gaming / dev capabilities, my 2nd favorite
- BlackBerry: not a mortal man uses it, except for the US
- PalmOS: dead and PalmWEB changed flags to Linux
- J2ME: no controll over device UI, low-end etc...

I really hope (and would donate such project or do some myself) this whole mUAE idea works.

Remember: This may be a GREAT CHANCE FOR AMIGA TO APPEAR ALL OVER AGAIN!
Tomorrow. On a mobile near you.


Please be real! :-)

The Amiga (no matter how much we love it) is never going to be a popular platform again.

The only people interested in the Amiga now are us, and there are probably only about 6000 max left.

If you have ever played games like Enigmo, Rolando or TouchPhysics on the iPhone you will see how modern games take advantage of modern interfaces (as available on modern devices) like touch screens, tilt sensors and audio input... not to mention that the "always on" internet connection of the iPhone allows for great multiplayer action, including MMORPGs!!! The iPhone also has graphics and audio capabilities that were unthinkable on the Amiga...

The world has moved on... Just as the Amiga moved people on from the days of the Sinclair Spectrum and C64... and the new games which that allowed... Modern platforms will move us on again!

The world has moved on

Quote

*EDIT Would someone PLEASE help me on these smilies/saddies?? I don't get it how to place them.


Smilies have noses... :-)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 08:00:13 PM
@ warpdesign

I meant recent OS.

Amiga emulation, easily available to anyone of the millions of mobile gamers, would attract the people towards different OS which is AOS4.

I know, I'm evangelizing newer platform here but what I think is... I want my phone to play classic Amiga games, and I want my next desktop to be OS4.  That way out.

One more - think of Amiga Emulation as a mobile virus that spreads the idea all over...

Are you personal about this McEwen stuff??  Maybe yes, I use too much exclamation, capitals or so... I promise to stop.  AInc does nothing for years as far as I know, I just wanted to propose something, right?  So that someone makes some money out it, some of Amiga people have fun, other people get attracted...  Is it a sin?  Or am I a cynic?  What are you on about? Please explain instead of denying.  I HATE denial!

@ bloodline

PocketUAE... WinMobile was NEVER so popular as it is now... Back in 2004... Only hobbyists (IT people, management) had palmtops, majority of the market was rather industrial but time has changed! WMs are now both common and reachable. What else for a base?

Man, don't tell me those things of Amiga demise anymore...  I do believe some freaky Amiga-grown Entrepreneur will buy a McEwen a decent BMV, get the brand and resurrect it - just for fun.  You really never know, history tells it...  Like Java 25 years ago... "unsuccessful project of system for fridges"...

Please do not thrash my weekend!! :-)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 08:23:15 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
@ bloodline

PocketUAE... WinMobile was NEVER so popular as it is now... Back in 2004... Only hobbyists (IT people, management) had palmtops, majority of the market was rather industrial but time has changed! WMs are now both common and reachable. What else for a base?


A few years ago only geeks had Mobile devices... Geeks are prepared to mess around with Emulators... Now the common person has mobile devices... common People don't want emulators, don't care about some old game they never played before, that  they won't have.. You can't sell Amiga games or Amiga ROMs...

The market for UAE on mobile devices is smaller now than it was years ago.

Quote

Man, don't tell me those things of Amiga demise anymore...  I do believe some freaky Amiga-grown Entrepreneur will buy a McEwen a decent BMV, get the brand and resurrect it - just for fun.  


Amiga as a brand is dead, it is worthless. No one will pay what McEwen wants for it.

Quote

You really never know, history tells it...  Like Java 25 years ago... "unsuccessful project of system for fridges"...


Java is 14 years old, and was NEVER meant for fridges.

Quote

Please do not thrash my weekend!! :-)


You can't live in a bubble... face facts and enjoy what the Amiga means to us! Forget about forcing Amiga down the throats of people who don't care and don't want it!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: aggro_mix on February 13, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
One advantage WM has over other mobile OS:es is the integration with Exchange. As the current trend seem to be dropping Lotus Notes (at least in northern Europe) for Micro$oft we will most likely see more phones with WM. I wouldn't be too surprised if there are more re-badged HTC phones than X1 in a near future.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2009, 08:32:46 PM
Quote

aggro_mix wrote:
One advantage WM has over other mobile OS:es is the integration with Exchange. As the current trend seem to be dropping Lotus Notes (at least in northern Europe) for Micro$oft we will most likely see more phones with WM. I wouldn't be too surprised if there are more re-badged HTC phones than X1 in a near future.


My iPhone has Exchange integration... Push Email/Calendar and Contacts, works perfectly and is actually brilliant :-)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 08:49:19 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

A few years ago only geeks had Mobile devices... Geeks are prepared to mess around with Emulators... Now the common person has mobile devices... common People don't want emulators, don't care about some old game they never played before, that  they won't have.. You can't sell Amiga games or Amiga ROMs...

The market for UAE on mobile devices is smaller now than it was years ago.


No way! If you market stuff properly, mobile people would buy it without giving it a think. I can see how many mobile crap games are being sold in this very second! I see everywhere on a TV five-second ads about Premium texting for 5$ to get a silly James Bond recent game. People drink a beer or two and... have fun or excitement for 5$... no matter all they get is a crap... what matters is the futuristic way they got it...

I really worked for two years in mobile industry and know how many pieces of particular mobile software sold daily needs to yield positive ROI... People WASTE money on mobile, because mobile operators told them VAS is what they want and they did it well.

mUAE if proprietary hopefully, will have guts to get through the whole marketing machine and eventually reach figures.  I see no much distinction between mUAE and any other mobile arcades, I thought it was already said here clearly enough...

Quote

Amiga as a brand is dead, it is worthless. No one will pay what McEwen wants for it.


I don't. But if the guy lets it go, who knows who will eventually pick it next...  We're getting older :-) and richer :-) :-) If I had 10M$ now I would spend all on this Amiga reanimation, believe me.  On the other hand things like this make me keep on tryin'

Quote


Java is 14 years old, and was NEVER meant for fridges.



Maybe an urban legend what I said but it was, indeed, targeted to a set-top
boxes... Maybe the thing before Java name...  I can recall I heard the story during my studies...  What an asshole the lecturer guy!

[/quote]

You can't live in a bubble... face facts and enjoy what the Amiga means to us! Forget about forcing Amiga down the throats of people who don't care and don't want it![/quote]

Hope is never insanity.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 08:57:49 PM
@ aggro_mix

Exchange Direct Push (a simple rip-off from BlackBerry original technology) works also on Symbian s60 (MfE), Symbian UIQ (RoadSync), iPhone sure, BB too :-)

Marketing Windows Mobile was always about the illusion of uniquity and conformity. Managers are not necessarily techies.

But as a result, the platform grows.  I can see mUAE on any top platform that would boost it up to others.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: stefcep2 on February 13, 2009, 09:22:54 PM
Just read the first post.  Nice discussion about the different OS's on mobile phones (thats what they're called in the rest of the world) BUT:  What Amiga exclusive games ( can't see any worthy apps to port so i assume its games you want) are there that would be worth all the work getting the custom chips emulated on a phone.  I think a megadrive or SNES emulator is more likely
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
Quote

stefcep2 wrote:
Just read the first post.  Nice discussion about the different OS's on mobile phones (thats what they're called in the rest of the world) BUT:  What Amiga exclusive games ( can't see any worthy apps to port so i assume its games you want) are there that would be worth all the work getting the custom chips emulated on a phone.  I think a megadrive or SNES emulator is more likely


That's an alternative you say.  An alternative, that's all.  SNES was also 16bit right? I got NES and it was rather a C64 alike...

A notion here would be that most stunning arcade games (music, graphic, playability, feel, climate, etc.) were those of Amiga.  No other.  Depends on the scene's size, and on the cult level, too. I think only the Amiga people have so much guts to talk about it at all.

A linguistic remark - I used cellphone term because some time ago in my life I was faced to the choice which flag should I pick to further learn English.  The pity is I forgot there's one more down below... :-(
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 13, 2009, 10:01:52 PM
I think UAE does have a decent chance of getting Amiga enthusiasts to use it on their phones.  Anyone else, forget about it.  But really who cares about anyone else?  We're a small group of people who want to have a foot in the '80s, what's wrong with that?  Does every iPhone or WM app have to sell 100,000 copies?  

Why can't we just enjoy Amiga without worrying about some prophesied second coming?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 13, 2009, 10:15:27 PM
Quote

persia wrote:
I think UAE does have a decent chance of getting Amiga enthusiasts to use it on their phones.  Anyone else, forget about it.  But really who cares about anyone else?  We're a small group of people who want to have a foot in the '80s, what's wrong with that?  Does every iPhone or WM app have to sell 100,000 copies?  


Well, if you want to achieve something, $$ plays always major role in it.  What I meant about Amiga mobile marketing or encouraging people is a simple use of teeny players, that maybe would tell their older brothers or sisters or else, they just got a great Amiga game on their phone (not necessarily knowing what this all Amiga is all about).  Not too many people would they get back to Amiga OS, but a guy pointed out here... 6000 of geeks (what about amigaworld.net??)... say, what about doubling it? if figures are 100 000 in fact, this is roughly possible.  Those all people would be happy really... As I am after these boring years.

Money would boost the whole idea, besides profits to the maker.

Quote

Why can't we just enjoy Amiga without worrying about some prophesied second coming?


We do, I do, why quit the idea that is simply extending this?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: stefcep2 on February 13, 2009, 11:01:36 PM
I have a SNES, yes its 16 bit.  The NES is 8 bit like C64.  Whilst it may be cool for the 'because I can" factor, I can't see what Amiga exclusives make the effort worthwhile.  Most games on the Amiga are available on the SNES and honestly the in game graphics are only marginally better on Amiga.  And the SNES has some of the best games in gaming history. In any case i think copyright might be problem for running games ROMS , which is why Apple doesn't allow emulators on the iPhone
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 14, 2009, 12:14:00 AM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

A few years ago only geeks had Mobile devices... Geeks are prepared to mess around with Emulators... Now the common person has mobile devices... common People don't want emulators, don't care about some old game they never played before, that  they won't have.. You can't sell Amiga games or Amiga ROMs...

The market for UAE on mobile devices is smaller now than it was years ago.


No way! If you market stuff properly, mobile people would buy it without giving it a think. I can see how many mobile crap games are being sold in this very second! I see everywhere on a TV five-second ads about Premium texting for 5$ to get a silly James Bond recent game. People drink a beer or two and... have fun or excitement for 5$... no matter all they get is a crap... what matters is the futuristic way they got it...


Hang on!! All you are selling is the Emulator...
The people who buy this Emulator then have to buy an Amiga ROM... and then have to search Ebay to find a copy of some game they probably don't know about (if you are under 25 you will have NO idea what an Amiga is...)... And then they need an Amiga to rip the Amiga Floppy Game to an ADF... then they have to upload the ADF to the device... then they have to configure the Emulator...

You expect the average user to waste time with that when... for example... I can spend two minutes on the App store on my iPhone find a brand new totally innovative game for £1.99 download and install it immediately... then play it...

You have to wake up here!!!

Quote

I really worked for two years in mobile industry and know how many pieces of particular mobile software sold daily needs to yield positive ROI... People WASTE money on mobile, because mobile operators told them VAS is what they want and they did it well.


Don't be stupid, people don't waste money... they might make stupid purchasing decisions, but someone needs to spend serious marketing dollars to get them to do it!

Quote

mUAE if proprietary hopefully, will have guts to get through the whole marketing machine and eventually reach figures.  I see no much distinction between mUAE and any other mobile arcades, I thought it was already said here clearly enough...


mUAE will have no software... be difficult to set up and use... and the controls won't be suited to a mobile platform in anyway...

Quote

Quote

Amiga as a brand is dead, it is worthless. No one will pay what McEwen wants for it.


I don't. But if the guy lets it go, who knows who will eventually pick it next...  We're getting older :-) and richer :-) :-) If I had 10M$ now I would spend all on this Amiga reanimation, believe me.  On the other hand things like this make me keep on tryin'


It would be your money to waste, and good luck to you! But even if I had $100M I wouldn't waste it on the defunct brand. I would push money into a 68k version of AROS, and then include it with UAE for the community.

Quote

Quote


Java is 14 years old, and was NEVER meant for fridges.



Maybe an urban legend what I said but it was, indeed, targeted to a set-top
boxes... Maybe the thing before Java name...  I can recall I heard the story during my studies...  What an asshole the lecturer guy!


To be honest it doesn't matter, Java is something totally different to the point you were getting at.

Quote

Quote


You can't live in a bubble... face facts and enjoy what the Amiga means to us! Forget about forcing Amiga down the throats of people who don't care and don't want it!


Hope is never insanity.


Hope without reason is insanity.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: warpdesign on February 14, 2009, 01:47:44 AM
Quote

Amiga emulation, easily available to anyone of the millions of mobile gamers, would attract the people towards different OS which is AOS4.

There's no way Amiga emulation would bring users to OS4.
Amiga emulation as you think about it (I guess at least) is all about games. What the bridge between 99% of amiga games (which simply kill the OS to run) and OS4 ? Tell me...

Not to mention that to have this emulation available to millions of users you should (or someone) have a licence for the OS and/or games... Well, if I was at the head of Amiga Inc. I would have released kick 1.x for free, but I don't see current owners doing so. I don't see them doing anything either. And I'm not sure they own the right to the kickstart anyway.

Oh, and I forgot: what about controls ? How do you control joystick based games with your fingers (in case of the iPhone & other touch phones) or keypad (in case of normal phone).

Oh, and one last thing: if you exclude powerfull smartphones (iphone, blackberry like, powerfull nokias,...), I'm sure most current mobile phones haven't got the raw power to emulate an Amiga. And I say raw power: this is ignoring the fact that most applications are JAVA based on mobile phones.

Quote

I know, I'm evangelizing newer platform here but what I think is... I want my phone to play classic Amiga games, and I want my next desktop to be OS4. That way out.

You want to play classic games in your phone ? Then buy an iPhone, and play pinball dreams, payback, etc... (I'm sure a lot more will be coming in the near future)

You want to do something, think better, and get real !

Some of your dreams can't come true in this world ;)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 14, 2009, 08:48:57 AM
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Hang on!! All you are selling is the Emulator...
The people who buy this Emulator then have to buy an Amiga ROM... and then have to search Ebay to find a copy of some game they probably don't know about (if you are under 25 you will have NO idea what an Amiga is...)... And then they need an Amiga to rip the Amiga Floppy Game to an ADF... then they have to upload the ADF to the device... then they have to configure the Emulator...


If it is about sales, I didn't say this business plan would be easy, in fact it's extremely complicated!  So another way, maybe there's just a need for free PocketUAE up-to-date only?

Quote

Quote

Hope is never insanity.

Hope without reason is insanity.


Idea is always a reason, not necessarily reasonable...
Besides, just been talking, that's all...

Quote

warpdesign wrote:

There's no way Amiga emulation would bring users to OS4.
Amiga emulation as you think about it (I guess at least) is all about games. What the bridge between 99% of amiga games (which simply kill the OS to run) and OS4 ? Tell me...


Actually the only bridge is a brand name, you're absolutely right those instances are in fact opposed to each other...

Quote

Oh, and I forgot: what about controls ? How do you control joystick based games with your fingers (in case of the iPhone & other touch phones) or keypad (in case of normal phone).


I mentioned controls already a few times here.  Many cells have joysticks, Nokias, SEs etc. above the regular/qwerty keypad.  Take a look.  Joystick/joypad/whatever is everything needed here.  Touch UI smartphones need reengineering, though.  But think of Lemmings for example.

Quote

Oh, and one last thing: if you exclude powerfull smartphones (iphone, blackberry like, powerfull nokias,...), I'm sure most current mobile phones haven't got the raw power to emulate an Amiga. And I say raw power: this is ignoring the fact that most applications are JAVA based on mobile phones.


I do not exclude smartphones, I exclude everything else.  To make ANY (forgot about capitals) I mean - any sense of releasing something non-trivial for mobile, one has to focus on open operating systems only.  There are many people that wanted to make a product working on every phone, now in institutions...


EDIT* I wasn't ever thinking of JAVA.  I proposed smartphones because of their open operating systems, which is in fact a branded, direct, open and standarized API.

Quote

You want to play classic games in your phone ? Then buy an iPhone, and play pinball dreams, payback, etc... (I'm sure a lot more will be coming in the near future)


Yeah, you all, again, dissuade me from considering the whole thing, I guess it's a good piece of advice to get all available games for mobile for a start :-)

I will! Have two mobile platforms already - Symbian s60 plus WM6 Smart.
Besides, If I finish my research, I'll try to post it here in gaming section.  That's something added, tiny though.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 14, 2009, 09:34:05 AM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Hang on!! All you are selling is the Emulator...
The people who buy this Emulator then have to buy an Amiga ROM... and then have to search Ebay to find a copy of some game they probably don't know about (if you are under 25 you will have NO idea what an Amiga is...)... And then they need an Amiga to rip the Amiga Floppy Game to an ADF... then they have to upload the ADF to the device... then they have to configure the Emulator...


If it is about sales, I didn't say this business plan would be easy, in fact it's extremely complicated!  So another way, maybe there's just a need for free PocketUAE up-to-date only?



Sure, PocketUAE was little more than the SDL target, built for the WinMobile platform... with some work to map the controls to the device...

Honestly, if there really was any interest, don't you think someone would bother keeping it updated? I used it, I thought it was quite fun... but it is VERY CPU intensive and kills the battery... The time spent trying to get UAE to work would be better spent porting or cloning your favorite Amiga game to your Mobile device...

My personal thought are about taking the OpenSource MegaLoMania clone to the iPhone... But I would have to either buy the rights to the GFX/Audio or (perhaps better) remake them...

Link:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.harman/comp_mlm.html
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Hammer on February 14, 2009, 09:52:29 AM
Quote

Pyromania wrote:
@DiskDoctor

Nice post except for the Windows Mobile part. Win Mobile is almost already dead and it would be a waste to put any resources there. Amiga Forever could have features added to the next version to support Amiga emulation on cell phones if it's developer is interested in going that route.

Factor in MS Visual Studio .NET tool chain.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 14, 2009, 05:02:54 PM
I dug in the web for a while.

There's a source (GNU I guess) available for PocketUAE (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=113620&package_id=124673), though outdated more that an already outdated most recent binary.

I am not as much experienced in this area so ask you for help here.  What am I supposed to have to build WM5/WM6 binary out of it??  Is this like:
- having Visual Studio. NET
- having Windows Mobile SDK
- choosing the target platform
- building from the source
- ... now goes the most tricky part - fixing all build errors :-)

Is that right? I ask any NET programmers here, please help.

Besides myUAE (http://myuae.sourceforge.net/) for Palm I mentioned already, I found yet another - PalmUAE (http://www.pdaground.com/i/palmuae/index.htm). Check out nice pictures!  First one is due to work on PalmOS five, another one - my guess - PalmOS4 or 5.

Can/did anyone equipped with appropriate Palm check if this works??
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 14, 2009, 08:51:09 PM
@Diskdoctor

Fine, let's say you restore the PocketUAE build.... How do you get past the fact that UAE will easily consume a mobile battery in about 15min... Probably less on on iPhone (a notorious battery hog)... No one loves a game so much that they will sacrifice their device to less than half an hour's gaming...

Both the iPhone and PSP get many hours of hardcore high frame rate 3D native gameplay before killing the battery!!!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 14, 2009, 09:50:00 PM
@ bloodline:

I disagree. I do not believe that yet another smartphone application not using any radio will kill the battery.  Batteries are more resistant those days.

My Windows Mobile cell lives for three days.  It is simply not possible to me that UAE would dry it out in an hour... Sometimes I play games and the phone still works for some time.  This standby/active factor is not as demonic as you say.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 14, 2009, 10:11:03 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
@ bloodline:

I disagree. I do not believe that yet another smartphone application not using any radio will kill the battery.  Batteries are more resistant those days.

My Windows Mobile cell lives for three days.  It is simply not possible to me that UAE would dry it out in an hour... Sometimes I play games and the phone still works for some time.  This standby/active factor is not as demonic as you say.


:lol: Build PocketUAE for your Smartphone... My old iPAQ had a 1500mAH, and a 450Mhz CPU... PocketUAE is a very CPU intensive app... it easily took the battery from full to empty in little under 20min...

My iPhone has a 1500mAH battery and a 412MHz CPU... if I run a CPU intensive app, I'm lucky to get an hour...

You clearly have no idea how Emulators work, you admit to never having used PocketUAE... And yet you still believe they your idea has merit... it doesn't. Now focus on something realistic!!!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 14, 2009, 10:54:41 PM
@ bloodline:

Yeah, maybe I am not an expert here, but not a newbie either.  Emulators is just another virtual layer on top of the system, that's all I need to now here.  I know some apps are of high voltage consumption.  What you say makes me think all mobile phones / palmtops are mostly made to rest, should any usage happens, they run out of batteries in several minutes.

If I do not know it, this is because I heavily used my all Palmtops, normal (J2ME) cell phones, stuff equipped with Symbian or windows mobile.  I never had such a problem some sustained action causes killing the battery.

But as I said, I am not familiar with mobile emulation (not too many people are there either).  It is simply hard to believe, If I did it and saw it before my very eyes, that would shock me and in turn convince. Fine, thanks for the advice I should not bother.

Alas, how can you explain this
1) three emulators (at least) were made already for mobile devices to imitate Amiga
2) someone must have been using this for real
3) there are many other mobile emulations, except for the Amiga.

Needn't to bother to reply this, all I wanted to point here is my rationale which makes me hard to justify and face the facts you're quoting. I had absolutely NO experience on mobile emulation but used any sorts of emulation on a PC or Mac.  Since those desktop systems are nowadays much better than those of smartphones (incomparable wouldn't be an answer anymore), what you say means both Symbian /WM systems are not as smart as they look (which I am aware of).
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Ilwrath on February 14, 2009, 11:32:52 PM
Quote
Yeah, maybe I am not an expert here, but not a newbie either. Emulators is just another virtual layer on top of the system, that's all I need to now here. I know some apps are of high voltage consumption.


The lines between virtual machine and emulator are very blurred.  The important thing to remember about an emulator is this:  You are trying to make a program that is able to represent itself and behave as a piece of hardware.  In this case, the hardware in question would be an Amiga.  An Amiga runs at a fixed clock rate, uses complex timing interactions, and generally does all sorts of nasty and complex things with the custom chips all the time.  Emulating this is not easy, and not very scalable.  Even if the CPU is not under "load" processing something, the emulation still needs to synchronize and emulate everything.  A massive amount of power is used to emulate an Amiga that is sitting idle at an empty Workbench screen.

Quote
What you say makes me think all mobile phones / palmtops are mostly made to rest, should any usage happens, they run out of batteries in several minutes.


Pretty much spot-on.  They have a long standby mode, decent low-usage mode, and much shorter full-power mode.  My older iPaq can be used for days as a PDA, hours as an MP3 player, and barely more than an hour as a low-powered Amiga.  (If I use the overclock util that I suspect Bloodline uses, yeah, PocketUAE will kill it from 100% to <10% in around a half hour -- maybe less.)  

Quote
But as I said, I am not familiar with mobile emulation (not too many people are there either). It is simply hard to believe, If I did it and saw it before my very eyes, that would shock me and in turn convince. Fine, thanks for the advice I should not bother.


I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't bother.  I'd love to have a newer version of PocketUAE to try.  Hey, maybe you'll find the golden optimization that makes it useful.  One never knows...

However, what we're trying to say is that it HAS been tried, and really, the results were far from optimal.  If you lived around the Detroit area, you'd more than welcome to borrow my iPaq for a couple days if you don't believe me.  :-(

And, the sad truth is, the Windows Mobile and Palm platforms are on their last legs, and haven't really added much since then.  

Quote
Alas, how can you explain this
1) three emulators (at least) were made already for mobile devices to imitate Amiga
2) someone must have been using this for real
3) there are many other mobile emulations, except for the Amiga.


1) It's cool bragging rights to run an emulator on your mobile device.  There's no getting over this.  Amiga is the coolest retro machine.  It's a natural fit for people to try.  Heck, you want to, right?
2) Sure.  I've used it.  But what do you mean "for real"?  Really, what good is a mobile, very simplistic, very slow Amiga that kills your batteries so quickly?  Bloodline says he managed to get A500 speed out of an iPaq 4150 and PocketUAE.  I have a model in that 4150 family, too...  My honest assessment of PocketUAE is about 2/3rd's A500 speed with very poor sound, and very poor keyboard support.  Not really the most useful thing ever.  (Though, cool as hell, no doubt.  I still have it installed!  It'll play Nuclear War decent, and I can complete a game before the battery dies.)
3) Other devices emulate easier.  VirtualTI (TI graphic calculator emulator) is superb.  I use it all the time.  Way more useful than any other calculator app I've encountered.  ClickGamer's excellent PocketCommodore is brilliant, too.  A full C64 emulation with good keyboard, sound, and joystick support.  Plus it doesn't need quite as much power to run, so the battery life during use isn't so bad.  THAT is useful.  

Heck, an Amiga emulator that could deliver that performance would be useful, too.  I just don't see the math working out for it, though.  Amiga is WAY more complex than a calculator or C64.  Complexity means needing more CPU cycles.  CPU cycles kill batteries.  There's no way around those facts.  :-(
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 18, 2009, 07:46:22 PM
@ bloodline:

Naah, I won't let go.

Check out this (http://www.downloadsquad.com/2007/03/05/top-5-emulators-for-windows-mobile-mobile-minute/).

Why do people bother??  Why is this whole "mobile emulation" idea a topic, still?  I can conclude you're pretty much prejudiced against the whole idea.

I'm trying to get VS.NET to port the PocketUAE source, this will take time since I do not want to have my home bandwidth stuck for some three days.  As I was saying...  I must see it myself.  Also, you said batteries...  But there are some phones which key selling point is resistant batteries!  Rugged models for example.  Also, one can sometimes get a better battery than the one sold with the phone.  There's more, if one switches everything OFF (like in fly mode) and adjusts some screen features like brightness, also, uses headphones instead handsfree...  

I can still see a hope.  Maybe it's because I am a mobile geek as well.

EDIT*  There's one more crucial thing I must have missed somehow.  See WindowsMobile Smartphone is unlike you both guys have, iPAQs so palmtops are now classified as Classic :-).  Classic and Pro devices have a touch screen which consumes much, much more RAM memory and processor (since you wait for more independent events).  So maybe this is the way out...
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: motorollin on February 18, 2009, 08:12:13 PM
Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
Emulators is just another virtual layer on top of the system

... which makes the machine work harder, hence consuming more power.


Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
But as I said, I am not familiar with mobile emulation (not too many people are there either).  It is simply hard to believe, If I did it and saw it before my very eyes, that would shock me and in turn convince.

Do an experiment. Fully charge a laptop and run a word processor on it. Type on it until the battery runs out, and write down how long the battery lasted. Then charge it up again and play games on UAE until the battery runs out. I guarantee 100% that the battery will last longer during word processing than it does when running UAE.

The principle is exactly the same for a mobile phone running UAE.

Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
1) three emulators (at least) were made already for mobile devices to imitate Amiga

Not particularly difficult to explain. They just destroy battery life. For example, UAE on my GP2X drains the battery more quickly than running a native game.

Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
2) someone must have been using this for real

Yes. But not on an iPhone, because Apple won't allow it.

Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
3) there are many other mobile emulations, except for the Amiga.

Same answer as for 1...

--
moto
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 18, 2009, 08:27:04 PM
Yet another story.

I just found Snes9x UIQ (http://www.handango.com/catalog/ProductDetails.jsp?storeId=2218&deviceId=359&platformId=20&productId=185816§ionId=7629) and vSun (http://www.handango.com/catalog/ProductDetails.jsp?storeId=2218&deviceId=466&platformId=20&productId=161830) SNES emulators for Symbian UIQ and s60 respectively.
(hope those links will work)

What do people pay for?  Frustration??
And the latter one is said to work on Nokia 6600... How's that?

I know SNES is not Amiga but... pretty close in terms of functionality, isn't it?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 21, 2009, 09:29:37 PM
I just saw today a working version of PocketUAE on some HTC Windows Mobile 6 Pro device.  So it means that it still works.

I wish I had a Professional Windows device to test it on, instead, I'm still thinking of changing the app so that it needs no touchscreen.  It looks as a matter of simple UI handling mapping/change - won't take long as having .NET framework installed.

Eventually a working Smartphone version might be considered as a gadget, but hey - it won't drain my energy to do something for OS4.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 21, 2009, 09:56:58 PM
The mouse should be replaced by the touchscreen and the joystick by the accelerometer.  

I'm re-evaluating Windows Mobile, I discovered XDA-Developers and PPCWarez and between the two I've load a far more responsive ROM and lots of programs.  Windows Mobile is crap, the devices it runs on have definite possibilities, the key is to get rid of as much Microsoft crap as possible, Internet Explorer, Microsoft Office, etc just take up space on precious internal memory.

It's really no different than a PC, even Vista is usable if you take to it with the digital equivalent of a pick axe...

(http://www.smileyhut.com/naughty/decapcheer.gif)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Hammer on February 21, 2009, 11:30:52 PM
Quote

persia wrote:
The mouse should be replaced by the touchscreen and the joystick by the accelerometer.  

I'm re-evaluating Windows Mobile, I discovered XDA-Developers and PPCWarez and between the two I've load a far more responsive ROM and lots of programs.  Windows Mobile is crap, the devices it runs on have definite possibilities, the key is to get rid of as much Microsoft crap as possible, Internet Explorer, Microsoft Office, etc just take up space on precious internal memory.

It's really no different than a PC, even Vista is usable if you take to it with the digital equivalent of a pick axe...

(http://www.smileyhut.com/naughty/decapcheer.gif)

Samsung Omnia includes 8 or 16 GB integrated flash and can be expanded for another 8 or 16 GB from micro-SD.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 22, 2009, 01:18:17 AM
Yep, the Kaiser has a 16GB card in it, but it's different, it shows up as /Storage Card and is different from internal memory, Opera needs to be in internal memory, much of the TouchFlo #D stuff needs to be in internal memory, Bill knows why, I haven't a clue.  Anyway, I may do away with Opera, since the Iris browser is just about usable (it's WebKit (from Apple) based) and has no problem running from /Storage Card.


(http://www.3dgladiators.com/forums/3dgpimages/smilies/dark2.gif)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Daedalus on February 22, 2009, 01:28:42 AM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:

I know SNES is not Amiga but... pretty close in terms of functionality, isn't it?


Well, not really. A SNES doesn't have multitasking for example, and due to the simpler hardware and timing involved wouldn't be as CPU intensive to emulate as a full Amiga system. The thing is, a virtual layer like Java doesn't require 100% of the CPU time - it only needs what it needs, so if the Java app is idle, it doesn't take too much CPU power. Emulating an Amiga is totally different, and isn't that style of virtual machine layer at all. A huge amount goes on behind the scenes in an Amiga, both in hardware (custom chips, CIAs, device access) and software (background tasks, filesystems, task messaging, events), and that will happily eat 100% of your CPU time on any current mobile device. Hell, it's only in the last few years that PCs have become powerful enough to emulate a higher up Amiga satisfactorily.

Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: mdwh2 on February 22, 2009, 02:37:39 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
A few years ago only geeks had Mobile devices... Geeks are prepared to mess around with Emulators... Now the common person has mobile devices... common People don't want emulators, don't care about some old game they never played before, that  they won't have.. You can't sell Amiga games or Amiga ROMs...

The market for UAE on mobile devices is smaller now than it was years ago.
Although I'm not sure how "more people have mobile devices" means that there are now less "geeks" around...?

Quote
Amiga software is not meant to be used in a mobile environment and really needs reworking to get the best out of it
Indeed this is a problem, but there are phones out there with keyboards, the question is how to map joystick and mouse to those (could it be done with touchscreen?) I don't think it's an impossible problem to overcome.

Quote
Oh... no idea... if you had the original source and data files... it probably wouldn't take more than a month to port an Amiga game to the iPhone... a bit longer to beta test it... Most amiga Games were not that complex...
They were also mostly written in assembler, which makes porting a lot harder. And more than a month per game is still expensive, compared to the time spent porting an emulator (which is written in portable C), which can then run most games.

(Note that the source to some games has been released, but when it's in assembler, I've yet to see ports - e.g., I'd love to see a port of Alien Breed 3D 2, but despite the source code being released years ago, has anyone managed to port it? Unfortunately it was written entirely in assembler...)

That's not to say there's anything wrong with porting or remaking games of course, as a programmer I've attempted the latter myself. But I can see advantages to the emulator route.

Quote
The world has moved on... Just as the Amiga moved people on from the days of the Sinclair Spectrum and C64... and the new games which that allowed... Modern platforms will move us on again!

The world has moved on
Well, you're reading a forum entitled "Amiga emulation", I'm not surprised that people here are going to have an interest in emulation ;)

Now having said all this, I don't think that Amiga emulation would have any effect for an "Amiga" platform (whatever that might be), and I'm not sure I follow whatever commercial plan DiskDoctor is suggesting (I think it's far better done just as a port of UAE). Although I can see that DiskDoctor makes an interesting point: currently on mobile platforms, people seem to pay money for all kinds of simple games, or even crappy ringtones.

Quote

motorollin wrote:
Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
2) someone must have been using this for real

Yes. But not on an iPhone, because Apple won't allow it.
That's the Iphone for you. There are plenty of other phones.

A lot of this "It can't be done!" talk reminds me of similar talk for PCs around 10 or more years ago - that even though other platforms could be emulated, there was something special about the Amiga that made it unemulateable. Of course, it was only a matter of years before not only could it be done, but soon WinUAE was running rings around even the fastest Amiga. And whilst a few people still cling to the idea that "But a real Amiga still feels better, an emulator can't reproduce that!", mostly it is seen as a bit laughable to claim that a PC is unable to do Amiga emulation, and the idea that it was ever considered impossible is seen as laughable.

Mobile platforms are still relatively primitive, but CPUs still continue to increase exponentially in performance.

Quote

Daedalus wrote:
Hell, it's only in the last few years that PCs have become powerful enough to emulate a higher up Amiga satisfactorily.
Note that it's been 9 years since an emulating PC has outperformed even the fastest 68060 Amiga, let alone an A500 that's sufficient for most games ( http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/662e0ab899bfc1cb?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8 ), though I don't know how chipset issues compared to that.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: mdwh2 on February 22, 2009, 03:13:18 PM
I'm curious about the CPU/power issue. I can quite believe that something like UAE would kill the battery quick on phones, but how do intensive real time games manage to use so much less?

Remember that UAE only uses 100% CPU if you set the option to allow it to use as much as possible. If I select the "Match A500 speed" option, then even with Sound set to 100% accurate, when running a game on WinUAE I get about 5% CPU usage (i.e., 10% of a single core).

OTOH, when running native real time games on Windows, the CPU is often maxed out at 50% (i.e., using all of one core). If mobile games are managing to use less power compared with UAE when the "Match A500 speed" option is set (were the tests done with this option?), then there must be more to the story - perhaps particular efficiency in games written for mobiles, or it's not simply about CPU usage?

Whatever the answer is, any port/remake of a game on a mobile platform would have to take this into account - otherwise the chances are that any such port/remake of a game, even though it's no longer emulated, would still hog the battery just as much.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on February 22, 2009, 04:35:11 PM
@DiskDoctor

It's 2009, nothing we do here is of any relevance to the current year, we're not here because of relevance.  I for one think it would be neat to have an Amiga emulator on a mobile.  It would be fun, that's enough.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 22, 2009, 05:56:19 PM
Quote

mdwh2 wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
A few years ago only geeks had Mobile devices... Geeks are prepared to mess around with Emulators... Now the common person has mobile devices... common People don't want emulators, don't care about some old game they never played before, that  they won't have.. You can't sell Amiga games or Amiga ROMs...

The market for UAE on mobile devices is smaller now than it was years ago.

Although I'm not sure how "more people have mobile devices" means that there are now less "geeks" around...?


The geeks have moved on... devices are now aims at the consumer...

Quote

Quote
Amiga software is not meant to be used in a mobile environment and really needs reworking to get the best out of it
Indeed this is a problem, but there are phones out there with keyboards, the question is how to map joystick and mouse to those (could it be done with touchscreen?) I don't think it's an impossible problem to overcome.


It isn't impossible, but the Amiga had two user input ports that could accept a range of input devices... commonly a mouse and a joystick... the Emulator has no idea what the software expects to be plugged in... thus you need to implement complex menu offering the user various options and emulations of different devices... it is now getting complex and tedious for any user and don't forget the small screen space... This is not going to become mainstream.

Quote

Quote
Oh... no idea... if you had the original source and data files... it probably wouldn't take more than a month to port an Amiga game to the iPhone... a bit longer to beta test it... Most amiga Games were not that complex...
They were also mostly written in assembler, which makes porting a lot harder. And more than a month per game is still expensive, compared to the time spent porting an emulator (which is written in portable C), which can then run most games.

(Note that the source to some games has been released, but when it's in assembler, I've yet to see ports - e.g., I'd love to see a port of Alien Breed 3D 2, but despite the source code being released years ago, has anyone managed to port it? Unfortunately it was written entirely in assembler...)

That's not to say there's anything wrong with porting or remaking games of course, as a programmer I've attempted the latter myself. But I can see advantages to the emulator route.


Even the effort to port the ASM source to c/c++/Objective-C would be more worth it than the disadvantages of the Emulator.

Quote

Quote
The world has moved on... Just as the Amiga moved people on from the days of the Sinclair Spectrum and C64... and the new games which that allowed... Modern platforms will move us on again!

The world has moved on
Well, you're reading a forum entitled "Amiga emulation", I'm not surprised that people here are going to have an interest in emulation ;)


I think Emulation is a fascinating topic, and is now by far the most important aspect of the Amiga experience... BUT, that is not what DiskDoctor is talking about. see below.

Quote

Now having said all this, I don't think that Amiga emulation would have any effect for an "Amiga" platform (whatever that might be), and I'm not sure I follow whatever commercial plan DiskDoctor is suggesting (I think it's far better done just as a port of UAE). Although I can see that DiskDoctor makes an interesting point: currently on mobile platforms, people seem to pay money for all kinds of simple games, or even crappy ringtones.


DiskDoctor is suggesting that an Amiga Emulator on mobile platforms is a commercial idea... it isn't;

1. An Amiga Emulator will (and does) kill a battery dead in minutes.
2. The input method of Amiga software is not suited to the mobile platform.
3. The Software is not easily available, both the OS and the games... much of which is in legal limbo...
4. Software is difficult to get from it's original medium (Amiga Floppy) to the mobile device.
5. Most of the mobile game buying market has never heard of an "Armoooger"...

Quote

Quote

motorollin wrote:
Quote
DiskDoctor wrote:
2) someone must have been using this for real

Yes. But not on an iPhone, because Apple won't allow it.
That's the Iphone for you. There are plenty of other phones.

A lot of this "It can't be done!" talk reminds me of similar talk for PCs around 10 or more years ago - that even though other platforms could be emulated, there was something special about the Amiga that made it unemulateable.


it was impossible with the level of technology 15 years ago (there is just so much going on inside the Amiga, and it all has to happen at precise times)... by 10 years ago... 1999, I ran DOSUAE on a P233... and it was amazing... better than a real Amiga... it has only got better since.

Quote

Of course, it was only a matter of years before not only could it be done, but soon WinUAE was running rings around even the fastest Amiga. And whilst a few people still cling to the idea that "But a real Amiga still feels better, an emulator can't reproduce that!", mostly it is seen as a bit laughable to claim that a PC is unable to do Amiga emulation, and the idea that it was ever considered impossible is seen as laughable.

Mobile platforms are still relatively primitive, but CPUs still continue to increase exponentially in performance.


Mobile platforms have the performance already... but batteries don't... the usefulness of a mobile platform is governed by battery life.

Quote

Quote

Daedalus wrote:
Hell, it's only in the last few years that PCs have become powerful enough to emulate a higher up Amiga satisfactorily.
Note that it's been 9 years since an emulating PC has outperformed even the fastest 68060 Amiga, let alone an A500 that's sufficient for most games ( http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.amiga.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/662e0ab899bfc1cb?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8 ), though I don't know how chipset issues compared to that.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 22, 2009, 06:05:47 PM
Quote

mdwh2 wrote:
I'm curious about the CPU/power issue. I can quite believe that something like UAE would kill the battery quick on phones, but how do intensive real time games manage to use so much less?


The mobile games use the interfaces provided by the mobile device vendor to ensure minimum battery usage.

Quote

Remember that UAE only uses 100% CPU if you set the option to allow it to use as much as possible. If I select the "Match A500 speed" option, then even with Sound set to 100% accurate, when running a game on WinUAE I get about 5% CPU usage (i.e., 10% of a single core).


The ARM in a mobile device is a simple CPU, generally in-order single issue. The CPU on your desktop is able to push probably 8 instructions through in a single cycle, per core!!!



Quote

OTOH, when running native real time games on Windows, the CPU is often maxed out at 50% (i.e., using all of one core). If mobile games are managing to use less power compared with UAE when the "Match A500 speed" option is set (were the tests done with this option?), then there must be more to the story - perhaps particular efficiency in games written for mobiles, or it's not simply about CPU usage?


The desktop and the mobile platforms are different beasts... you can't compare apples and oranges.

Quote

Whatever the answer is, any port/remake of a game on a mobile platform would have to take this into account - otherwise the chances are that any such port/remake of a game, even though it's no longer emulated, would still hog the battery just as much.


No... think about it for one second... a native game just has to call the mobile platform's blit() function to draw an image to the screen... in the emulator the same game will have not call the native blit() function but all the mechanisms that the Amiga used to draw the image on the screen... and still maintain timing... thus requires something like 100 times the amount of work!!!

Do you know how Emulators work?
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 22, 2009, 06:08:44 PM
Quote

persia wrote:
@DiskDoctor

It's 2009, nothing we do here is of any relevance to the current year, we're not here because of relevance.  I for one think it would be neat to have an Amiga emulator on a mobile.  It would be fun, that's enough.


I second that!

The point I am arguing against is potential for any commercial success from any such venture.

I'd obviously love UAE on my iPhone... but I wouldn't really be able to use it away from a power source, and I would prefer to have the games I use native to the iPhone itself.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 25, 2009, 02:48:01 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

persia wrote:
@DiskDoctor

It's 2009, nothing we do here is of any relevance to the current year, we're not here because of relevance.  I for one think it would be neat to have an Amiga emulator on a mobile.  It would be fun, that's enough.


I second that!

The point I am arguing against is potential for any commercial success from any such venture.

I'd obviously love UAE on my iPhone... but I wouldn't really be able to use it away from a power source, and I would prefer to have the games I use native to the iPhone itself.


Yeah maybe I started the topic with something that goes at the end, or doesn't.

I 199% agree on that working UAE on mobile should be useful, if not, this is just another fancy freak to be shown to your pals at the party.  Maybe I went too far with my claims.  I will try to make a test on my Smartphone, that's all.  If it fails, I will give up this.

Or maybe...  Does Amithlon boot into 1.3 kick??  Maybe that's a shorter path on Linux-powered mobile phones, like Android?

@ bloodline

Please, stick off the iPhone thing!  The market is broader, that's for sure.  And the share seems not following the device's performance.  I love iPhone but as I said here many times, this discussion is about potential, not performance and usability.  

Remember that.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 26, 2009, 02:16:53 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

persia wrote:
@DiskDoctor

It's 2009, nothing we do here is of any relevance to the current year, we're not here because of relevance.  I for one think it would be neat to have an Amiga emulator on a mobile.  It would be fun, that's enough.


I second that!

The point I am arguing against is potential for any commercial success from any such venture.

I'd obviously love UAE on my iPhone... but I wouldn't really be able to use it away from a power source, and I would prefer to have the games I use native to the iPhone itself.


Yeah maybe I started the topic with something that goes at the end, or doesn't.

I 199% agree on that working UAE on mobile should be useful, if not, this is just another fancy freak to be shown to your pals at the party.  Maybe I went too far with my claims.  I will try to make a test on my Smartphone, that's all.  If it fails, I will give up this.

Or maybe...  Does Amithlon boot into 1.3 kick??  Maybe that's a shorter path on Linux-powered mobile phones, like Android?


Amithlon is both a dead project from a legal and technical POV, and also only for x86... it is only little use on ARM power mobile devices.

Quote

@ bloodline

Please, stick off the iPhone thing!  


:-?

Quote

The market is broader, that's for sure.


There is no market for UAE on mobile devices...

Quote

And the share seems not following the device's performance.  I love iPhone but as I said here many times, this discussion is about potential, not performance and usability.  


Potential for what?

99.9999998% of the mobile device owning population are not interested in running some old obscure emulator on their mobile devices...

The idea has geek value... but it has been proven that it can be done, and now everyone has moved on.


Here is another geek project you might enjoy:

http://www.frazpc.pl/b/232621
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on February 26, 2009, 03:51:12 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
And the share seems not following the device's performance.  I love iPhone but as I said here many times, this discussion is about potential, not performance and usability.  


Potential for what?


You misunderstood. I meant # of devices present on the market.

This discussion of ours is becoming pointless, also right, the whole mUAE idea doesn't seem much promising but... Hey, one might also say that this whole Amiga thing nowadays has no potential in anything either :-)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Krusher on February 26, 2009, 05:32:00 PM
Just installed PocketUAE on my HTC Magician, but damn its sloooww  :lol: Other then beeing a nerd it has no point for everyone else  :-D
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on February 26, 2009, 08:05:02 PM
Quote

Krusher wrote:
Just installed PocketUAE on my HTC Magician, but damn its sloooww  :lol: Other then beeing a nerd it has no point for everyone else  :-D


I used to use a program that would overclock the CPU 530Mhz... That should help, also play with the settings a bit, getting rid of as much Audio as possible will help.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Krusher on February 26, 2009, 08:29:14 PM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
...

I used to use a program that would overclock the CPU 530Mhz...


Last time I tried that, it broke my phone to the point it returned to factory settings and went back into first boot mode (calibrating etc.) Good thing I backed up my inbox and adressbook  :-x  :madashell:

Did turn off audio completely, but its still slower then a real Amiga 500  :lol:
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: persia on March 17, 2009, 12:55:35 PM
(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/mobileos2.jpg)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: darksun9210 on March 17, 2009, 03:02:10 PM
while an emulator would be good fun for most of us here, for the "joe schmoe" in the street, running an emulator, maxing out your phone's CPU to play a game is not a good move.
most people are used to not charging their devices once a day. if i stream video over 3G to my phone via orb, i'll get maybe 45 minutes battery life?
i use my blackberry as an MP3 player, and i'm ... not doing much at work... so to speak, so its playing constantly. that plus surfing the web on it on the train to/from work, or mucking about with its satnav means it needs a charge at least once a day.
but say someone nails together an emulator bundled with .. i dunno.. micromachines, or something equally as silly, and after 20 minutes of driving little cars around, they've lost 50% battery, and the handset is rather toasty. that is not going to go down well as a mass consumer idea.

that has to be the main reason behind native ports of games.
plus to run quake on my phone, i wouldn't want to have to load an x86 emulator and run it through that. sure i'd do it for a laugh, but then i'd see how slow and crap it is, and forggedaboudit.

i'd love UAE for either blackberry or symbian, but i don't think it's going to happen mass market untill at least the CPU power to watt ratio changes drasticly.  :-) untill then it'll remain in the relm of the "nerds"
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 20, 2009, 08:23:27 PM
@ bloodline (mostly)

Hi I just saw this (http://www.intomobile.com/2009/03/20/commodore-amiga-emulator-symbian-s60-phones.html) in some other amiga forum post.  That's a s60 UAE pure emulation, man!

Fortunately I got this Nokia E65 but damn! Couldn't make it work yet!  S60 Nokia anybody else to test it??
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: ajlwalker on March 20, 2009, 10:40:26 PM
I actually missed this thread before.

I installed uae4all for symbian on my N95 just the other day and it is pretty neat.

Nebulus for example runs at 25 fps with full sound no problem.

I was so impressed I am considering a bluetooth mouse for it!

Played it for about 30 mins yesterday (not a full charge) and my phone still has two bars left (24 hrs later) and the N95's battery has a shockingly poor life.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 21, 2009, 10:12:39 PM
@ ajlwalker

Could you please give me some clues on how to run it properly?  I spent some time on trying, no result.

I got Nokia E65 s60v3fp2 which is close to your N95 system, maybe less in terms of memory and CPU.  I managed to install the software and placed the kick file.  The point is I cannot make any adf/adz game work, after running emulation the screen goes blank...

EDIT* Can you also provide tests of battery lifetime while on emulation?

Did anybody else manage to try and run it??
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Ni72ous on March 21, 2009, 11:01:27 PM
I did get it to work, with a 1.3 kickstart, though i had to try 2 different kickstart images, i managed to load lotus, speed looked good but sound was not too good.

Edit: make sure your kickstart is 512k in size and not 256k
Edit: check this (http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=360133) thread on another forum, the dev tells a little about the port.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 21, 2009, 11:33:31 PM
Quote

NitrousB wrote:
Edit: make sure your kickstart is 512k in size and not 256k


Thanks for help.

But which one is it anyway?  AF contains two said files:
- amiga-os-130.rom
- amiga-ext-130-cdtv.rom

and neither takes 512K.

Am I supposed to get it on a torrent?  I gues it would be legally justified now :-)
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: bloodline on March 21, 2009, 11:39:06 PM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
Quote

NitrousB wrote:
Edit: make sure your kickstart is 512k in size and not 256k


Thanks for help.

But which one is it anyway?  AF contains two said files:
- amiga-os-130.rom
- amiga-ext-130-cdtv.rom

and neither takes 512K.

Am I supposed to get it on a torrent?  I gues it would be legally justified now :-)


Just put two 256k files together...
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 22, 2009, 12:21:04 AM
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Just put two 256k files together...


Didn't work.  But I used the 'cat' Mac/Linux command, not sure if this is binary.  That's my first time of merging binary files ever :-)  So is there any sensible way of doing so on Windows?  I just saw an application, trial possible, 50MB... Sick!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Ni72ous on March 22, 2009, 12:29:30 AM
I downloaded my 512k rom as i cant image my kickstarts as i have no real amiga to put them in :(
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: ajlwalker on March 22, 2009, 02:40:38 AM
Quote

DiskDoctor wrote:
@ ajlwalker

Could you please give me some clues on how to run it properly?  I spent some time on trying, no result.

I got Nokia E65 s60v3fp2 which is close to your N95 system, maybe less in terms of memory and CPU.  I managed to install the software and placed the kick file.  The point is I cannot make any adf/adz game work, after running emulation the screen goes blank...

EDIT* Can you also provide tests of battery lifetime while on emulation?

Did anybody else manage to try and run it??


Hmm, after a quick look, your CPU is lower but working memory is the same as N95 I think.

Firstly I wouldn't worry about an adf, just try and run it without to see if you get the kickstart screen.  I used 1.3 and you must ensure it is called KICK13.ROM.

Do you get the on screen display when you run it?  Maybe you have just been unlucky with adfs and compatibility.  Track down nebulus.  I can confirm this works on both 512k and 1Mb chip RAM.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Piru on March 22, 2009, 09:07:26 AM
Works fine with my E71 with KS 1.3 (just cat'ed the same 1.3 image twice to get the 512KB img). A500 KS 2.05 or 3.1 doesn't appear to work. I also had to use some magic keycombo to rotate the display 90 degrees.

E71 has a 369MHz ARM 11 CPU so it's pretty fast. If things run too slow the sound gets choppy though. Another problem is that there is no volume control, the sound output is at 100% all the time.

Of the demos I tried Enigma by Phenomena works pretty much perfect, including sound. Some demos refuse to work altogether, for example Extension by Pygmy Projects. I believe this might be due to missing ranger ($c00000) memory. Sometimes the emulation just crashes unexpectedly, too.

In all, it's a very good initial release.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 22, 2009, 10:12:14 AM
Still doesn't work :-(.  I got together both proper kick files, again, ran an adf game - or just ran the blank UAE.  Black screen all the time.

My mobile has 220 MHz ARM and 50 MB RAM (35 MB free).
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: ajlwalker on March 22, 2009, 10:28:49 AM
@diskdoctor

Do you even get the UAE4all welcome screen?  This should be the first thing to appear.  If not it could be a problem with your kickstart.  Try running it with no kickstart file at all.  You should get the welcome screen, and then a screen with the boing ball in the background and text saying something like "no kickstart file".

If you do the above, and still get a black screen it could be you don't have enough RAM on your phone.  Have you shut down as many other things on your phone as possible such as bluetooth/wifi and any other apps?

Please report back.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Ni72ous on March 22, 2009, 10:30:55 AM
I have now been able to boot to ks 2 and 3 boot screens, not tried any games on these kickstarts yet though.

Edit: by the way i am using an N95-1
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 22, 2009, 12:00:41 PM
@ ajlwalker

I do get UAE4ALL welcome, by saying blank screen I meant black screen after hitting 'run' actually.

RAM you say... Some time ago I slaughtered all applications that resided in RAM so the phone should be pretty much clean now.  GsmArena says it's 50MB RAM phone, my memory check says '20MB in use, 41MB free' so should work fine according to the respective forum.  And I run it on anything else shut.

BTW I scanned this Symbian forum and found no answer 'xcept those I got here.  Thanks, again.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Ni72ous on March 22, 2009, 12:06:52 PM
The only time i got a black screen was due to ks image, when i used 256k image just black screen.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: ajlwalker on March 22, 2009, 12:26:51 PM
@diskdoctor

I agree with NitrousB.  I reckon it can only be the kickstart image then.

I'm not sure where I got mine, it was on my desktop machine.  I think I took it from an old Retro computing magazine coverdisc that had a stripped down version of AmigaForever on it.

If I were you I'd get a torrent of it.  So long as you own the physical ROM I wouldn't be bothered ethically speaking.

Again, best of luck!
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 22, 2009, 12:34:58 PM
@ ajlwalker

Well, that's what I just did:

Mac-Mini:~ martas$ cat amiga-os-130.rom amiga-os-130.rom > kick13.rom
Mac-Mini:~ martas$ cat amiga-os-130.rom amiga-ext-130-cdtv.rom > kick13a.rom
Mac-Mini:~ martas$ cat amiga-ext-130-cdtv.rom amiga-os-130.rom > kick13b.rom

Then I used these on 1 floppy-no music-512 KB settings.  I tested UGH! and Lotus2.

Same.  But how weird!  When this black screen halts I checked the memory - it all turned to take only 1MB which is impossible.  Seems that UAE is not following its emulation routine.  Must be kick then.  BTW the whole case sucks, I think the author should fix it in the next release since AF roms do not work.

I'll get a 512 kick then.  Thanks for advice.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Ni72ous on March 22, 2009, 01:21:21 PM
I dont think this version is an actual release, i believe he just allowed one forum to release it as a kinda tech/wip demo, i am sure he will fix loads of stuff and release an official build soon.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: DiskDoctor on March 22, 2009, 01:49:23 PM
Quote

NitrousB wrote:
I dont think this version is an actual release, i believe he just allowed one forum to release it as a kinda tech/wip demo, i am sure he will fix loads of stuff and release an official build soon.


Yeah, everybody says so.  I don't like this 'beta testing' trend.  Instead of wasting my time, I'm willing to pay for saving it and pay it well.  That's why I hate this open-source 'try really hard and you might eventually get it working' phylosophy.

But to the point.  A friend of mine on the net borrowed me a 512KB kick file.  Now all I got the app crashes on/during boot (grey fading screen).  I might have my firmware updated soon so maybe this will help.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: ajlwalker on March 22, 2009, 03:26:57 PM
@diskdoctor

Check your private messages.
Title: Re: Amiga in Your very cellphone
Post by: Opus on March 22, 2009, 03:53:39 PM
I have UAE4ALL on my Nokia N95-3 and it is GREAT!  I played Shadow of the Beast yesterday at a very smooth frame rate.  I expect to see this program refined and hope to see hard file support.  This has been an incredible month for N-series phones.  1st win3.1, then Windoze 98, now Amiga!  
    I think I recall the maker of UAE saying NEVER will he port UAE to Symbian, all I have to say is SLACKER!  someone beat ya to it!