Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3

[psxphill]

Installed Classic Shell, which give you the start button, and already now I feel much more comfortable.

Can you express that objectively?
 
I installed various start menu hacks in the beta versions and when doing RTM installs. I was reinstalling multiple times to get nice clean installs, rather than install a load of software figure out what works well and then uninstall the rest.
 
What I found was that I got lazy and eventually couldn't be bothered to install a start menu anymore and just got on with learning how to find stuff in Windows 8, because it was easier than installing an extra piece of software if I was just going to nuke it again.
 
My usage pattern probably doesn't match yours, which is why I'm interested in what you find more comfortable.
 
Classic Shell lost me with their customer testimonies and when I couldn't find a US registration for the trademark.

[Niding]

Since the buddy that gave me Win 8 for free praised it (and hes a IT worker that is exposed to it all day at work) I decided to give it a fair chance. I wanted to "get used to it" like he said I would etc.
I can see why he has gotten into the Win8 flow since hes exposed to it around the clock and as such will get hang of the shortcuts.

Maybe because Im a causual user Im "lazy" and not intrested in learning new GUI/processes.
It would probarly take even longer for me to get fully used to Win8, but as it is, I just found it increasingly annoying.

As for Classic Shell; since I just installed it a few hours ago I cant vouche for it yet, but my INITIAL impression is favorable.
When I wanted to start a program or game I dont want to search the metro screen for it. I dont want to type a few letters in the seach box. It feels cumbersome, for me atleast.
When I want to uninstall a program or start some secondary file of a program/game that is not the "main" exe file that windows/metro displays, I feel required to make a shortcut on desktop etc.
With the startbutton I just put up everything I need and its 1 click away=quick access.

Ive had discussions with my IT worker buddy and he explained why and how he enjoy Win8 over Win7, and I tried to emulate his user pattern somewhat. It just didnt "work" for me

So basically I want the Start button! I even enjoy it on AmiKit/Classic Workbench. Some call it a bastard import to Amiga, but I PERSONALLY find it userfriendly. You could stick to the Amiga pulldown menu programs that was popular back in the early 90s, but what works for some, doesnt for others.

[commodorejohn]

Don't tell the masses the truth, they hate that!  

Yes, you can turn Metro off entirely, people.  Easy peasy, a couple clicks.  I don't begrudge anyone disliking W8, but the witch hunt stuff is just hysterical.

YOU CAN OPT TO NEVER SEE "METRO" AT ALL AGAIN ONCE YOU DEFAULT TO DESKTOP MODE.  

That's bullshìt and you know it. You can turn off booting into Metro. That's all. You can't stop Metro from popping up when you hit the Windows key or get the Start menu back without a third-party hack - and even with a third-party hack, W8 only just approaches being as usable as 7. It's still got loads of issues - for instance, the fact that minimizing windows no longer sends them to the back of the Alt-Tab queue, so you can decide you're done with something for the moment and put it away only to then immediately switch back into it when you meant to go to something else. You end up having to bubble-sort your windows just to get them into the order that XP would've had them in all along.

Win8 is feces and everyone knows it except the True Faithful. You've lost, guys. Time to admit it.

[Duce]

Believe what you like, John.  I'm telling you I use W8 daily and I don't hit Metro at all, and it didn't take rocket science to set that up.  I use Windows 8 in entirely "desktop" mode.

I'm not here to convert anyone.  In fact, I'd be the LAST guy on earth to recommend that anyone go out and upgrade from 7 to 8 on their own dime, especially if that person has zero need to anything "Metro" style.  What I am saying is 8.1 can be a perfectly usable desktop OS that's actually faster and as stable as Windows 7, that's all, and you don't need to see the Metro stuff if you don't want to.  or you can, or you can mix and match Metro and the Desktop.  Up to you.

However, if you buy a new PC with 8 installed, you can indeed run it in a desktop UI form and never see the tablet style UI.  You can, John, lol.  I do it every single day, as do many, many others.  This is not pulling rabbits out of hats, it's a simple config option in 8.1 u1.

http://images2.tinkertry.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Windows-8.1-running-Windows-8.1-VM-with-8TB-disk.png

Looks pretty much to be a standard Windows style desktop to me in that particular screenie, doesn't it?  There's no magic or smoke and mirrors needed to get an experience like that in the least.

[gertsy]

That's bullshìt and you know it. You can turn off booting into Metro. That's all. You can't stop Metro from popping up when you hit the Windows key or get the Start menu back without a third-party hack - and even with a third-party hack, W8 only just approaches being as usable as 7. It's still got loads of issues - for instance, the fact that minimizing windows no longer sends them to the back of the Alt-Tab queue, so you can decide you're done with something for the moment and put it away only to then immediately switch back into it when you meant to go to something else. You end up having to bubble-sort your windows just to get them into the order that XP would've had them in all along.

Win8 is feces and everyone knows it except the True Faithful. You've lost, guys. Time to admit it.

While where talking about bullsh1t I can I let you in on a little real world conspiracy; You don't need to turn the start menu off. These hacks were for 8.0 and are 18 months old. 8.1 Will always start off where you left off.  If you're a desktop user and use it as a desktop user then it will go in the desktop. If you're a start menu user.. yes you guessed it.
It's simply based on how you shut down or hibernate.

At work I have colleagues that use 8.1 every day and use it as 8.1 not 7. This is obviously a subjective comment; but I envy the speed at which they work and its clear they have taken to the new OS more fully than myself.

In my view it comes down to two simple questions.
1. Are you a person that does the same things the same way all the time.
2. Are you a person that wants to learn new ways of doing things for the better.

The last question is predicated on the ideal that there may be a better way of doing things. When you approach it with a closed mind of course there's no way it could ever be true.

Many great ideas fail because of marketing or anti-marketing.  Unfortunately in the IT world you have to hype to get a look in.

The Surface was always put forward as a Tablet that can replace a Laptop.  The Anti hype turn that into "its not a tablet and it's not a laptop".  It took 10 years for the tablet to gain a foothold in our progressive technology loving world. My view is simply, that is because it was always aimed at people who were not willing to change and not willing to learn.  Aim it at young or non-industry people market it as a differentiator of their individuality and discerning taste and whammo; how quickly they line up.  Reminds me of a line out of Monty python: "Yes we are all individuals" chants the crowd.

As a diversion back onto the topic.  Here's an independent review of the Surface 3.  Have a look at the benchmarks.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3-review/

cheers

[commodorejohn]

Believe what you like, John.  I'm telling you I use W8 daily and I don't hit Metro at all, and it didn't take rocket science to set that up.  I use Windows 8 in entirely "desktop" mode.

However, if you buy a new PC with 8 installed, you can indeed run it in a desktop UI form and never see the tablet style UI.  You can, John, lol.  I do it every single day, as do many, many others.  This is not pulling rabbits out of hats, it's a simple config option in 8.1 u1.

Smarmily condescend all you want, but the fact is that it will throw you right back to the Start screen any time you try to pull up a menu of your applications unless you employ a third-party hack. If you use vanilla 8.1 and you don't ever see the Start screen, then, well, whatever. Guess an obsessive dependence on taskbar pinning got you something. But for those of us who actually want to be able to pull up a menu of the applications installed on the computer without having to wade through a tablet-oriented wasteland of giant tiles, that's not an option.

In my view it comes down to two simple questions.
1. Are you a person that does the same things the same way all the time.
2. Are you a person that wants to learn new ways of doing things for the better.

The last question is predicated on the ideal that there may be a better  way of doing things. When you approach it with a closed mind of course  there's no way it could ever be true.

Or, alternately, you could approach it rationally and simple come to the conclusion that it's terrible because it is, in fact, terrible. But no, that can't be it, obviously it must be that everyone who looked at Windows 8 and said "that's stupid!" is just a Backwards Neanderthal Who Hates Change! How can we help but sneer at them for being so backward as to not unequivocally approve of any new design simply for being new without regard for whether it's actually any good or not?!

[gertsy]

....
Or, alternately, you could approach it rationally and simple come to the conclusion that it's terrible ....

I thought I was being rational John. Have a read of the review.  Engaget can be pretty superficial but at least they announce opinion and subjectivity and don't glaze it as fact.

I tend to agree with part of your comment.  It's people that "looked at it" that don't like it. Not the one's using it.

[Duce]

Not sure what you're missing, John.  I'm telling you, as tons of others will - they use Windows 8.1 u1 without ever getting "thrown" back into the Metro UI at all.

I use 8.1 for hours per day and _never_ see Metro in the least unless I actually want to, which I do not.  It did not take a dozen add on programs or anything add on wise to achieve this.  

There are 1000 "how to" guides on how to do exactly this, John.  It requires no IT certs to do so - the only remotely technical thing I've ever had to do is disable Charms with a regedit tweak, no different than how I used to turn off the annoying Balloon Tips on XP.  Other than that, the only thing I had to do to ease my usage case was make a desktop icon for shutdown/reboot, but that was purely preferential.

5 minutes of tweaking for a vastly superior File Explorer, twice as fast boot times, and just as stable?  Pretty simple.

[commodorejohn]

I tend to agree with part of your comment.  It's people that "looked at it" that don't like it. Not the one's using it.

Speaking as someone who's had to put up with using it on his work computer for months, you're full of it.

[Duce]

He was referring to the Surface 3, John.  Which is actually getting quite positive hands on reviews.

[persia]

Windows 8.1 looks a lot like Windows 7, especially if you don't use any Windows Store Apps.  Yeah the "Start" ball (actually a Windows logo ball) takes you to the tiles, but really that's the only difference.  Well that and the search area for apps is to the side rather than an the bottom of the menu.

Windows Store apps appear on the task bar even.  And you can create shortcuts on the desktop to them.

[bbond007]

He was referring to the Surface 3, John.  Which is actually getting quite positive hands on reviews.

I just got a dell venue 8 with windows 8.1 and I really like it. I have never seen surface 3 but its probably a very usable device based on my experience with this cheapo device.

I do like it better than my previous tablet - a Samsung galaxy tab.

I think people just look for any reason to hate m$ft.

[commodorejohn]

I think people just look for any reason to hate m$ft.

Because it couldn't be that we actually have honest negative opinions about something, no sir...

[Niding]

I can see Win 8/Metro being quite usable on a Tablet. I got a Ipad and those slidable icons like Metro got is userfriendly from that point of view.

From my POV the Metro menu doesnt translate as well to non-touchscreen desktop enviroment.

It doesnt make Windows 8 a bad OS, it just means a tool might be perfect at some tasks, while "useless" at others.
I dont really see the big deal with that.

Now Ive used the Classic Shell for a whole 24 hours, and I really enjoy it. By the looks of it, Win 8 will stay on my machine. (Classic Shell substituted the Metro button with Start menu button)

EDIT; So, tried the App Store, and now Windows insist I use the hotmail password to logon to my computer, not the custom admin password I made when Windows 8 was installed. Odd and annoying.
Maybe I should have KNOWN this would happen, but I cant really say I asked or was told by the OS that this would happen. Im sure there isnt anything "bad" that happens cause of this, but I personally dont like
programs/OSs taking "artistical freedoms" in giving you features you didnt explicitly asked for.

[persia]

If you run Windows Store Apps you will need to run the modern interface.  Windows Store Apps do not run in the Desktop.  You can see them in the task bar and pin a shortcut to them but they actually run in the modern interface.  It's still two headed, though not as confusingly so.

The Windows Store has you sign up for an account, in the same way Apple's App Store does.  That's why you sign in with it, it wouldn't make any sense to sign into the store with an account that is local to your computer.

[gertsy]

....

EDIT; So, tried the App Store, and now Windows insist I use the hotmail password to logon to my computer, not the custom admin password I made when Windows 8 was installed. Odd and annoying.
Maybe I should have KNOWN this would happen, but I cant really say I asked or was told by the OS that this would happen. Im sure there isnt anything "bad" that happens cause of this, but I personally dont like
programs/OSs taking "artistical freedoms" in giving you features you didnt explicitly asked for.

I was dubious about the same thing the first time I installed 8.  But once I took the plunge there are a lot of benefits in having a live account.  1. All your settings follow you. 2. You get extra security features for your device.  3. Your apps are licensed on all your devices (if you have more than one) The are no proprietary microcosms that don't require you to supply a valid email address. So go nuts and download Flappy Bird and all the other crap in there.  Bamboo Page, Fresh Paint and Hill Climb Racing is fun.

@Persia, yes, the runtime environment.  AKA RT to make it even more confusing.