Amiga.org

Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 05:51:33 AM

Title: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 05:51:33 AM
The Surface tablet continues to struggle and the idea to take down the iPad failed so with Surface Pro 3 the plan has changed. The new Tablet now has a higher price ($799 vs $499) and is aimed at corporate customers. It also includes a crappy i3 processor instead of the i5 that the Surface Pro 2 had. You can get a i5 or i7 but the prices goes way up.

Happy computing!


http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248464/Microsoft_doubles_down_on_2_in_1_enterprise_first_Surface_strategy?taxonomyId=241&pageNumber=2
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on May 21, 2014, 06:26:40 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764727
The new Tablet now has a higher price ($799 vs $499)

If you can get a Surface Pro 2 with an i5 for $499 then you should buy them up and sell them on, because that is the price of the Surface RT 2 with an Arm processor.

Either that or you're confused. The articles I've read have the Pro 3 with an i3 cheaper than the Pro 2.

The only "news" is that they haven't announced a replacement for the Surface RT 2 yet.

 But computerworld manage to mess up that too.
 
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248465/Windows_RT_isn_t_dead_yet
 
 "After that, RT would be transitioned to Windows 9, sharing the same code base with full Windows in 2015, he predicted."
 
 Windows RT is and always has been the same code base as full Windows. I'm not sure what his point is.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 06:58:04 AM
@psxphill

Surface Pro 3 is cheaper than the Pro 2 because it uses the crappy i3 processor instead of the i5 that's in the Pro 2.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 21, 2014, 08:24:03 AM
Well I would never have thought a i5 would be more expensive than a i3. Or that the performance wouldn't be the same. How I have had my head in the sand....

Also get the pricing right.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/technology/mobile/microsoft-surface-pro-3/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Lurch on May 21, 2014, 08:32:53 AM
Here we go again, is this an Amiga website or an anti MS forum? Quit posting other websites FUD here.
Anything to keep the keywords going for the search engines I guess.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
Quote from: CritAnime;764733
Well I would never have thought a i5 would be more expensive than a i3. Or that the performance wouldn't be the same. How I have had my head in the sand....

Also get the pricing right.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/20/technology/mobile/microsoft-surface-pro-3/


Looks like the regular Surface RT tablets will be discontinued thus Surface will now start at $799 instead of $499.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Andre.Siegel on May 21, 2014, 10:45:44 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764727
The Surface tablet continues to struggle and the idea to take down the iPad failed so with Surface Pro 3 the plan has changed.


Source?


Quote
The new Tablet now has a higher price ($799 vs $499) and is aimed at corporate
customers.


As someone else pointed out, the new tablet is a successor to the Surface Pro 2 and Surface Pro, which have always been aimed at professionals and power users. The new Surface Pro 3 is in fact less expensive than both of its predecessors.


Quote
It also includes a crappy i3 processor instead of the i5 that the Surface Pro 2 had.


At the lower price, it also features a 12 inch display instead of a comparatively tiny 10 inch display. Apple's smallest laptop has a 11.6" display for a reason. Anything smaller is simply not usable for serious work with common desktop applications (for most people, anyway).


Quote
You can get a i5 or i7 but the prices goes way up.


The cheapest i5 version costs as much as the entry level Macbook Air 13. (The Surface Pro 3 has a slightly smaller, but much, much better display. It also features twice as much as memory at this price. The Macbook Air's 4 GB look fairly dated in 2014.)

For people who do not mind the Metro user interface, which does not include me, the Surface Pro 3 is valid alternative to a Macbook Air or similar Windows-based Ultrabooks.


Quote
Looks like the regular Surface RT tablets will be discontinued thus Surface will now start at $799 instead of $499.


Again, source? This sounds more like wishful thinking than anything else. The iPad mini outsold the full-size iPad in 2013. On amazon.com, the best-selling Android tablets are all 7 inch models. Clearly, there is a huge demand for lower-cost, smaller, highly portable tablets in the 7 to 8 inch range.

The only way to compete in this space in terms of price and user experience would be to release a new Surface RT tablet, which is exactly what many media outlets were expecting to see at Microsoft's recent press event. The assumption that Microsoft will just leave this huge market niche to Android and iOS is not plausible.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: yssing on May 21, 2014, 11:29:11 AM
It looks really great.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 12:04:29 PM
@Andre.Siegel (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=982)

Surface RT caused MS to take a 900 million dollar write down ouch! Surface RT has always sold very poorly and did not have many apps available. A Surface Mini was developed but then the decision was made to no longer try to complete with low cost iPad's and Android tablets. Thus Surface RT will be cancelled shortly, collect them for door stops while you can.

:)


Surface Pro 3 can make sense for some users since it can run all their Windows applications. I'm wondering how WinUAE preforms on it myself. Could someone test WinUAE on Pro 3 and report back? Surface RT makes little to no sense for anyone. It's not viable for customers and MS has to answer to shareholders. It was a solution chasing a problem that didn't exist. Goodbye just like ZuneHD & Kin phone.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: som99 on May 21, 2014, 12:11:40 PM
My source http://Sweclockers.com
Quote from: Sweclockers
SweClockers.com is a Swedish online magazine about computers and computer hardware, founded in 1999, with about 250,000 unique visitors per week, as of January 2012. The website has one of Sweden's largests forums which is focused on computer hardware, software, modding and overclocking. Folding@ SweClockers.com is the most successful Nordic team in the distributed computing project Folding@Home and has its own forum on the website.



Quote from: sweclockers
$799 (Core i3, 4 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD)
$999 (Core i5, 4 GB RAM, 128 GB SSD)
$1299 (Core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD)
$1549 (Core i7, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD)
$1949 (Core i7, 8 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 21, 2014, 05:11:59 PM
These generally half cocked and generally ill informed "news" features get tiring, especially on an Amiga site.  We get it, MS bashing is the cool thing lately, just like it was 30 years ago, lol.

Anyone that read the stories, or watched the product launch could tell you that this product is geared towards the enterprise market as a laptop alternative, not a competitor to a $100 Android tablet.  They only mentioned it about 150 times in the product launch.

Like any other higher end product, it comes in lower end and ultra high end hardware configs - including an i7, 8 GB and high capacity SSD model.  The base model, like any other base model PC (again, it's being marketed as a laptop alternative, not an ipad replacement - it does have a full OS, after all) comes in cheapie form and price escalates the more you tack onto it, just like any other PC..

Much like you can buy a Mac Air for $900, you can also custom spec a Mac Air to cost you $2000.  Just like the Surface 3.  Neither are kiddie toys, they are being marketed and sold to people looking for something that does more than an iPad.

I had my supper break last night with a few guys that are chomping at the bit to get their hands on a Surface Pro 3.  I'll likely buy one myself once they are in stores for IT work to replace an old Mac Air I have, in fact.

The RT Surface tablets should have never, ever come out.  Just a giant mistake on MS's part.  Says "Windows" on the damned thing and you cannot run any traditional Windows (x86) software on them.  One of the most dead in the water products I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: wawrzon on May 21, 2014, 07:21:59 PM
my surfacepro (1) i got in autumn to have something to work on for three months abroad has practically replaced my i7 main pc for most tasks. it is not suitable for high demand gaming okay, the touchscreen functionality may be clumsier as apple products, but wacom pen is great, expandability is reasonable and it has occurred to be a really versatile device for a price of rather low range notebook. i dont get what that bashing is supposed to achieve, especially if on has not used the particular hardware to the limits. i as an owner am satisfied so far ..
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Andre.Siegel on May 21, 2014, 08:32:31 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764742
@Andre.Siegel (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=982)

Surface RT caused MS to take a 900 million dollar write down ouch! Surface RT has always sold very poorly and did not have many apps available. A Surface Mini was developed but then the decision was made to no longer try to complete with low cost iPad's and Android tablets. Thus Surface RT will be cancelled shortly, collect them for door stops while you can.

:)


Again, this is pure speculation on your part. Microsoft also wrote-off 1 billion USD on the Xbox 360 in 2007. Yet, Microsoft did not stop selling the Xbox 360. They even launched a successor a few months ago. Arguably, Microsoft's general purpose computing devices (i.e. Surface and Surface Pro) are more important to their core business than Xbox has ever been, and will ever be.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Andre.Siegel on May 21, 2014, 08:44:30 PM
Quote from: Duce;764748
The RT Surface tablets should have never, ever come out.  Just a giant mistake on MS's part.  Says "Windows" on the damned thing and you cannot run any traditional Windows (x86) software on them.  One of the most dead in the water products I've ever seen.


From a branding perspective, it was clearly a huge disaster that could have and should have been avoided. Long before the products became available for sale, I predicted that there would be immense consumer confusion surrounding the ARM and x86 versions of Windows.

Two 10 inch tablets. They share the same user interface, but one is compatible with old applications and one is not. No wonder this caused all kinds of problems...

That being said, if consumers can choose between a 12 inch Pro model and a 7 inch RT model, that is an entirely different situation because these highly distinctive form factors are perfectly able to convey a different set of features and use cases on their own.

Realistically, most people would not expect to use a desktop application on a 7 or 8 inch tablet because it is rather obvious that the usability would be absolutely horrible. Consumers also do not get confused by the fact that they cannot run standard desktop applications on their Windows Phone devices either, afterall.

So, with regard to the Surface devices, the Windows branding itself was not necessarily the key problem. The RT and Pro form factors have simply not been distinctive enough in the past.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: yssing on May 21, 2014, 08:51:56 PM
And here I was thinking, that I should get a lifetime membership of amiga.org.
It is not suitable for the SysAdmin to post stuff like this.
Anyway glad I did not throw money after amiga.org
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
Quote from: yssing;764756
And here I was thinking, that I should get a lifetime membership of amiga.org.
It is not suitable for the SysAdmin to post stuff like this.
Anyway glad I did not throw money after amiga.org


Up to you, but your post is off topic. Amiga.org has always had an altermative  OS section and you are welcome to skip threads you have no interest in. Many Amiga.org owners own more than one system including Windows and or Mac/Linux and don't mind livley discussions of them. While some may see this thread as bashing in fact the MS Surface so far has been a epic failure. The only thing it has succeeded at is upsetting Microsoft's OEM PC Partners and made them rapidly make low cost Chromebooks.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember tying you down, beating you and forcing you to read this thread. Also, don't worry about not donating to Amiga.org. That always was your choice to make.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 09:40:27 PM
One nice thing about the Surface Pro 3 is the included pressure sensitive pen that has integrated one button launch of OneNote and 256 pressure levels. You can also use pressure sensitive pens on iPad & iPad Mini with Wacom's professional-grade pressure sensitivity (2,048 levels) but they will cost you $80 to $99 extra.

http://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Intuos-Creative-Stylus-CS500PK0/dp/B00FC7DOCW/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1400704721&sr=8-3&keywords=ipad+wacom+stylus

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AO1MH60/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=M3KV17QOEVYI&coliid=I1NA23XATFHA30&psc=1

A few got excited that the Pro 3 is $100 cheaper than the Pro 2. They easily achieved this by swapping out the nice i5 processor for the crappy i3. Even the original Surface Pro that's almost 2 years old had an i5 so this is a step back.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: yssing on May 21, 2014, 09:45:59 PM
I read amiga.org and other sites for amiga related news, yes, the thread might be in "other opererating systems" but still the main focus should be on amiga and not MS bashing and apple fanboy'ing.

Yes I have other systems than amiga, but for news on those systems I go else where.

And I "like" your attitude towards this sites users, keep it up.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 21, 2014, 11:14:07 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764762
A few got excited that the Pro 3 is $100 cheaper than the Pro 2. They easily achieved this by swapping out the nice i5 processor for the crappy i3. Even the original Surface Pro that's almost 2 years old had an i5 so this is a step back.

You are getting far too hung up on the fact it has a i3 in it. Lots of laptops come with i3 in that, for day to day stuff, is perfectly fine. A business looking to replace a fleet of aging laptops will not go "oh the i5 is so much more powerful lets get that!" they will look at the cost and go for the cheapest option. Especially if they have no need for i5 speeds.
 
You are hardly likely to hand a i5 or i7 powered computer to someone that is only going to be running powerpoint or wordprocessing. It is pointless.
 
Also do your math. $799 from $999 is not $100. Try $200.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: gertsy on May 21, 2014, 11:34:51 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764735
Looks like the regular Surface RT tablets will be discontinued thus Surface will now start at $799 instead of $499.


Probably best before you write stuff up that you have a good read and understand the subject matter a little better.
 RT was the Original non-intel "Windows RT" version of the Surface.
With the second release of the Surface MS decided to drop the RT name from the device. Making it just the Surface.
The intel version "Surface Pro" has stayed with that name.
There has been no substantial price change of the release price of either model through all versions and releases.

I assumed you'd want to correctly represent the device because of your keenness to keep us up to date with its ongoing failure. As opposed to other similar tablet releases that fail to get a mention here.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 21, 2014, 11:50:58 PM
Quote from: gertsy;764770
I assumed you'd want to correctly represent the device because of your keenness to keep us up to date with its ongoing failure. As opposed to other similar tablet releases that fail to get a mention here.

Don't be daft. It's Microsoft so everything is fair game. You don't need research. just bash away and it's all good.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 21, 2014, 11:56:28 PM
Quote from: CritAnime;764768
You are getting far too hung up on the fact it has a i3 in it. Lots of laptops come with i3 in that, for day to day stuff, is perfectly fine. A business looking to replace a fleet of aging laptops will not go "oh the i5 is so much more powerful lets get that!" they will look at the cost and go for the cheapest option. Especially if they have no need for i5 speeds.
 
You are hardly likely to hand a i5 or i7 powered computer to someone that is only going to be running powerpoint or wordprocessing. It is pointless.
 
Also do your math. $799 from $999 is not $100. Try $200.

When Surface Pro 2 failed to sell at $999 they reduced it to $899 and it has been that price for some time.

http://www.cnet.com/news/whats-new-with-the-microsoft-surface-pro-comparing-surface-pro-2-specs-vs-new-the-surface-pro-3/

Surface Pro always had an i5 so playing processor games by switching it to an i3 and bragging that it's cheaper is a so Microsoft. Everyone is different but I would never buy or want a machine with an i3. Apple offers no machines with an i3 for a reason.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 22, 2014, 12:41:57 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764772
When Surface Pro 2 failed to sell at $999 they reduced it to $899 and it has been that price for some time.
 
http://www.cnet.com/news/whats-new-with-the-microsoft-surface-pro-comparing-surface-pro-2-specs-vs-new-the-surface-pro-3/

fair enough, the articles I have seen have had the surface 2 at $999 and places are still selling them for $900+. So I appologise for that.
 
Quote
Surface Pro always had an i5 so playing processor games by switching it to an i3 and bragging that it's cheaper is a so Microsoft. Everyone one is different but I would never buy or want a machine with an i3. Apple offers no machines with an i3 for a reason.

And thats why it is your opinion. I could say I don't have a need to buy a iPad so why the hell should everyone else. As you say everyone is different. But they are not aiming this thing at a consumer level. Again why would a company that doens't need i5 power buy i5 equipment at $100 more. MS have brought a new price into it to be more competative in the business sector.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 12:50:54 AM
Apple have offered plenty of machines with i3's.  The fact that they currently don't is more a Haswell refresh issue than i3's simply not being powerful enough.  My father, who works for one of the largest telco companies in Canada recently got his newest laptop for work, and you guessed it, it has an i3 in it and runs just fine for what he needs.  The company chose to spend extra money on SSD's on all these new machines vs. going for the i5 option, just like I would have if I'd been doing it.

I've got one in an older iMac and it's completely adequate for what I need.  If I'd needed more grunt, I could have upgraded to an i5 or i7, just like one can with the Surface 3 devices should they need more power.

By your logic, Apple are a bunch of money grubbing, screwing bastards for offering less powerful options for either the same price or more, similar to the 5c and the new iPad variants, no?

Might be wise to get some therapy for the MS blind sided-ness.  Most people just don't use what they don't like vs. writing up National Enquirer "news" posts interjected with their own opinions and "facts".
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 22, 2014, 01:02:23 AM
Quote from: CritAnime;764768
You are getting far too hung up on the fact it has a i3 in it. Lots of laptops come with i3 in that, for day to day stuff, is perfectly fine. A business looking to replace a fleet of aging laptops will not go "oh the i5 is so much more powerful lets get that!" they will look at the cost and go for the cheapest option. Especially if they have no need for i5 speeds.
 
You are hardly likely to hand a i5 or i7 powered computer to someone that is only going to be running powerpoint or wordprocessing. It is pointless.
 
Also do your math. $799 from $999 is not $100. Try $200.

Um, I can buy an i3 laptop for $300, so I want this why?

Maybe with an AMD processor and a better integrated GPU...

After all, I may not want big cpu power, but what about decent gaming capability?
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 01:11:27 AM
Completely different beast, Iggy.  It's not being made nor marketed for those wanting a $300 laptop, nor is it marketed towards gamers and gaming.

They are going for the enterprise market and driving the Surface 3 machines as laptop replacements to engineers, doctors, IT people, etc.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 01:13:48 AM
@Duce

I've never seen Apple offer an i3 in one of their machines. Maybe I missed it when it happened. If you watched the Surface Pro 3 presentation Microsoft targeted the MacBook Air not the iPad. Apple has not upgraded the Air's Display in over 3 years and it's looking dated in 2014. MS found one of Apple's shortcomings that's for sure. By targeting the iPad in the original Surface launch MS bit off more than they could handle. The iPad juggernaut annihilated the Surface and help fuel a almost 1 billion dollar loss for Microsoft's Surface division. They don't want to repeat that mistake so beating iPad is no longer a goal. The Air while still selling well is getting old and has a dated display. They hope by targeting that they get some traction with Surface Pro 3. While they made no mention of Surface RT being cancelled (Renamed just Surface 2 from the older Surface RT) rest assured it's days are numbered.

They gain nothing by saying it's cancelled while still having a huge amount of them sitting in warehouses unsold. Also, if they said that Surface RT (Surface 2) is cancelled now it would send a chill through their developer community. Developers would stop developing RT Apps immediately. By saying nothing about Surface RT they hope to change the focus to Surface Pro 3 and it's ability to run almost all x86 Windows applications. With less than a 2% share of the Tablet market or less than one day of iPad sales they are desperate to do anything they can.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 01:16:06 AM
http://www.macworld.com/product/586734/21-5-inch-core-i3-imac-3-06ghz.html

Exact model I have, still works just fine for the minimal amount I use it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 22, 2014, 01:21:19 AM
Quote from: Iggy;764786
Um, I can buy an i3 laptop for $300, so I want this why?
 
Maybe with an AMD processor and a better integrated GPU...

You are looking this wrong. Lets put the surface thing to one side along with pricing. Sys was getting hung up on the fact it has a i3 and was saying it was crappy (implying it was not up to task.) For corporate use, which they are aiming at, it would be a perfectly fine CPU choice for day to day corporate stuff. Hell the i3 is a perfectly fine CPU for a lot of things. Maybe not gaming but....
 
Quote
After all, I may not want big cpu power, but what about decent gaming capability?

Again you are looking at this from a consumer perspective. they are aiming these things at the corporate sector. Gaming is not going to be their primary consern is it, unless they are in the gaming industry. Word processing, spreadsheets, power point all don't need masses of CPU power to work. You don't need massive GPU's as the Intel intergrated processor will work fine.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 22, 2014, 01:24:32 AM
Quote from: Duce;764787
Completely different beast, Iggy.  It's not being made nor marketed for those wanting a $300 laptop, nor is it marketed towards gamers and gaming.

They are going for the enterprise market and driving the Surface 3 machines as laptop replacements to engineers, doctors, IT people, etc.

Funny, but I don't see those people using tablets, and this offers few advantages over a laptop.
So, do you really think engineers, doctors, and IT people WANT a device like this?
I know people in all three fields, and I think I'd have a hard time selling them this device (and having previously sold electronics, I'm pretty sure of this).
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 22, 2014, 01:28:01 AM
Quote from: Duce;764789
http://www.macworld.com/product/586734/21-5-inch-core-i3-imac-3-06ghz.html

Exact model I have, still works just fine for the minimal amount I use it.

I've been wondering who still bought iMacs.
There must be a market for these, but I didn't understand it when the iMacs were introduced and I still don't get it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 01:48:28 AM
Another perspective

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/21/microsoft-laptops-surface-pro-macbook-alternative-tablet
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 22, 2014, 01:51:38 AM
Quote from: Iggy;764791
Funny, but I don't see those people using tablets, and this offers few advantages over a laptop.
So, do you really think engineers, doctors, and IT people WANT a device like this?
I know people in all three fields, and I think I'd have a hard time selling them this device (and having previously sold electronics, I'm pretty sure of this).

Actually several systems at the hospital I work at are getting the tablet treatment. So yes there will be doctors, nurses and support staff running around with tablets and mobile devices. Several execs already have tablets and a couple have a Surface. And I know lots of people in the IT industry myself and nearly all have a tablet that they use in conjuntion with a laptop. So yes, Microsoft (if marketed right) have potential to make strides into the Corporate sector with these things.
 
@sysadmin
 
I can play linkies too.
 
http://www.lifehacker.co.uk/2014/05/20/10-reasons-microsofts-surface-pro-3-can-replace-laptop
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 22, 2014, 02:02:13 AM
Quote from: CritAnime;764796
Actually several systems at the hospital I work at are getting the tablet treatment. So yes there will be doctors, nurses and support staff running around with tablets and mobile devices. Several execs already have tablets and a couple have a Surface. And I know lots of people in the IT industry myself and nearly all have a tablet that they use in conjuntion with a laptop. So yes, Microsoft (if marketed right) have potential to make strides into the Corporate sector with these things.
 

At one of our local area hospitals (the one my parents trained at to be specific) only the dietary staff use tablets.
I have friends in IT too, and few of them are embracing the devices (and using them with a laptop seems redundant).
And the market where tablets are most popular, with young people and novice users, seems pretty far removed from the enterprise market you envision.

While the advantages of compact size and portability are obvious, I can't see this device doing more than displacing a small percentage of the other alternatives.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 02:10:28 AM
Quote from: CritAnime;764796
@sysadmin
 
I can play linkies too.
 
http://www.lifehacker.co.uk/2014/05/20/10-reasons-microsofts-surface-pro-3-can-replace-laptop

Nothing wrong with that list, I'm sure a few Windows fans will replace their laptops with a Surface Pro 3. The problem with Surface Pro is it never sells in large numbers. A few Windows fans always buy them.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 22, 2014, 03:15:25 AM
Quote from: Iggy;764798
At one of our local area hospitals (the one my parents trained at to be specific) only the dietary staff use tablets.
I have friends in IT too, and few of them are embracing the devices (and using them with a laptop seems redundant).
And the market where tablets are most popular, with young people and novice users, seems pretty far removed from the enterprise market you envision.

This is reality however. Portability is become a major thing. We use COWs (Computers on Wheels) for a lot of stuff. These things are hefty, bulky and horrible things to move and use. Yet we need them because doctors and nursing staff use them when doing bedside reviews of patients. We can pull up everything we need about a patient and order services and procedures at the side of the bed. but they are not the most prcatical of devices.
 
hence why the trust is bringing in tablets that have similar fucntionality but are so much more portable and practical. Even against a laptop they are far more practical in this sort of environment.
 
I suppose with IT it depends on what they do. A lot of the people I know, including my brother-in-law who works for a analytics company, use the laptop tablet combo. they use the laptop for day to day business computing while using the tablet for sales and other stuff, where portablility is more key. A all in one solution, from this perspective, makes more sense especially as they might have to splash out on third party apps to get the same functionality on a tablet. Having a Windows OS based tablet would make more sense because they could still use their existing software. Saving money.
 
Quote
While the advantages of compact size and portability are obvious, I can't see this device doing more than displacing a small percentage of the other alternatives.

Trust me when you have used a COW you will wish for a tablet. I can see the apeal of a device such as the Surface compared to a laptop in a lot of situations.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;764799
Nothing wrong with that list, I'm sure a few Windows fans will replace their laptops with a Surface Pro 3. The problem with Surface Pro is it never sells in large numbers. A few Windows fans always buy them.

:rolleyes: sums it up for you really.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 03:40:18 AM
Yes, only 4.6 million people bought Mac's in '13....

@SysAdmin.

RT devices have not been cancelled in any way.  I say that with some disappointment.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 05:08:50 AM
Quote from: Duce;764810
Yes, only 4.6 million people bought Mac's in '13....

You are right of course, you won't find me disagreeing with you, Apple should have sold many more. By hogging OS X for themselves Apple is limiting the wide spread use of the OS. They should have partnered long ago with 1 or 2 other companies. Sony would have been a good one and allowed them to sell OS X machines.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 22, 2014, 05:12:41 AM
Ubuntu Unity 8 will be out soon. Might be ok with a real OS.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 22, 2014, 05:18:43 AM
You get a really nice screen with a computer inside for not much more than the price of the screen.  The 27 inch screen is beautiful and really large enough that you could live with only one screen if you had to.

Quote from: Iggy;764792
I've been wondering who still bought iMacs.
There must be a market for these, but I didn't understand it when the iMacs were introduced and I still don't get it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 08:15:38 AM
I miss the first Surface, the real one.

http://www.tested.com/tech/3181-microsoft-surface-20-launching-early-2012/

Its a iPoolTable killer!
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: James2002 on May 22, 2014, 09:10:21 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764819
I miss the first Surface, the real one.

http://www.tested.com/tech/3181-microsoft-surface-20-launching-early-2012/

Its a iPoolTable killer!

If they had released one of those. I would been saving up and buying one.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: som99 on May 22, 2014, 09:36:36 AM
Quote from: persia;764815
You get a really nice screen with a computer inside for not much more than the price of the screen.  The 27 inch screen is beautiful and really large enough that you could live with only one screen if you had to.

Uhm no...

Checking apples page and there is the imac for $1,799, the same panel is used in Dell monitors at the prize of 450$.

Rest of the parts are:
3.2GHz quad-core Intel Core i5
Turbo Boost up to 3.6GHz
8GB (two 4GB) memory
1TB hard drive1
NVIDIA GeForce GT 755M with 1GB video memory

You got 1349$ left to spend, you will get %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! loads better parts then above junk for 1340$

Gigabyte GA-Z97N-WIFI, mITX wifi board for socket 1150.
Intel Core i7 4790 3,6 GHz, 8MB, CPU.
8GB ram.
120GB Samsung SSD + 1TB 2,5" HDD (and space for 2 more HDD's in the case i picked)
be quiet! SFX Power 2 400W, quiet nice PSU.
Noctua NH-L9i, a low profile awesome CPU cooler.
Geforce 750ti one slot graphics card.
mITX case with single slot GFX card that you can mount on monitor.

Above + monitor costs about same as cheapest iMac and beats the more expensive macs.

So build it all in a mITX case with vesa mount for monitor if space is an issue, loads more performance  then iMac, or build a lot cheaper computer at same specs as the iMacs... and buy beer for the money you save.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 22, 2014, 01:06:50 PM
@CritAnime

The argument against COWS is valid, no one likes them here either.
The disturbing part is our local hospitals even mount laptops on carts.
Fairly stupid, but...

And tablets with Windows do make sense from a unified software point of view.

While I can tolerate Android and Linux (and actually strongly dislike the Win8 interface), the advantages of that OS seem apparent.

And I'm not sure how iMacs got dragged into this as they aren't even comparable to these new convertible tablets.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Nlandas on May 22, 2014, 02:19:48 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764727
The Surface tablet continues to struggle and the idea to take down the iPad failed so with Surface Pro 3 the plan has changed. The new Tablet now has a higher price ($799 vs $499) and is aimed at corporate customers. It also includes a crappy i3 processor instead of the i5 that the Surface Pro 2 had. You can get a i5 or i7 but the prices goes way up.

Happy computing!


http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9248464/Microsoft_doubles_down_on_2_in_1_enterprise_first_Surface_strategy?taxonomyId=241&pageNumber=2

   I respect everyone's right to have an opinion but I find it humorous that the iPad is even mentioned in conjunction with the Surface 3.

   The Surface 3 Pro runs a full desktop OS and comparing the Core i3 and the A7 with iOS, which isn't much more than a launcher, is like comparing a Vic 20(6502) and a 386. The Core i3 is a very adequate processor for anyone doing basic desktop computing. The fact that you can now get an i7 in a hybrid tablet/laptop running a full desktop OS is pretty neat.

    Perhaps, we should be more astonished that Apple can continue to sell a Wifi 10 inch tablet with an A7 processor and 64GB of storage for $699.

   Forgetting that Microsoft is almost as bad as Apple, as monopolies go, doesn't that make a desktop level 12" tablet with i3, 64GB and full desktop OS for $799 look pretty good? It does to me, even if I'd prefer that it was coming from neither Apple or Microsoft.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
Don't forget the most important revolutionary feature in the new Surface Pro 3. It's as thin as the original 2010 iPad. Also, you don't need features like 4G(LTE) or even 3G, Surface Pro 3 does not have anything like that. Why would it need it when it has classic WiFi. Maybe in 2018 the Surface if it's around will be as thin as the 2014 iPad.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 22, 2014, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764830
Don't forget the most important revolutionary feature in the new Surface Pro 3. It's as thin as the original 2010 iPad. Also, you don't need features like 4G(LTE) or even 3G, Surface Pro 3 does not have anything like that. Why would it need it when it has classic WiFi. Maybe in 2018 the Surface if it's around will be as thin as the 2014 iPad.

It's cute that you are continuing the debate in such a eloquent way. Why not just revert to "YO M$ SUCKS DONKEY WANG!!! I AIN'T GONNA LIKE ANY DAT CRAP!".
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 05:37:02 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764830
Don't forget the most important revolutionary feature in the new Surface Pro 3. It's as thin as the original 2010 iPad. Also, you don't need features like 4G(LTE) or even 3G, Surface Pro 3 does not have anything like that. Why would it need it when it has classic WiFi. Maybe in 2018 the Surface if it's around will be as thin as the 2014 iPad.


It's also about 50x the machine when purchased in high end format, not to mention a bigger physical device to begin with by a couple inches than the iPad.

The iPad is as thin as it is because it's a consumption device with an ARM processor, and also because it has virtually no connectivity ports other than headphones out and the charging connector, where as the Surface has USB, SD, among others.  You're comparing apples and oranges and failing miserably again.  If you are seriously comparing the iPad, an app centric device against a full fledged PC in the Surface, we're really living on different planets.

Apple's devices would be just as thick if they had an i Series CPU in them, and you know it as well as I do.  In fact, they are!  The Air is actually THICKER than the Surface 3  :)  Heavier too.  Once again, the Surface being marketed as a notebook replacement, it's not really fair to compare "thickness" to a consumption device like an iPad, now is it.

As for 3G or 4G connectivity, MS did the numbers on it and came up with the figure that less than 2% of their customers felt they "needed" built in cell based connectivity.  Which the Air does not come with, either.  The vast majority of iPad's sold are the wifi only models, and same goes for Android devices.  Again, the latter not even being in the same category as the Surface to begin with.

Since the Surface has a USB 3 port, it'd be a very stupid business decision to offer 3G/4G built in for the 2% that might ever want it, especially when a guy can buy a USB 4G stick for $50 on the carrier of their choice, just like they would be forced to do for their Mac Air's and other notebooks, no?
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: itix on May 22, 2014, 07:19:27 PM
Yes built-in 3G/4G is useless to most customers. When there is no WiFi directly available you can use your cell phone to work as WiFi access point.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Thorham on May 22, 2014, 08:01:30 PM
The thickness of a device. Veeeeeeery important stuff, that :lol:
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 08:09:20 PM
@Duce

Are we still calling the iPad Air a consumption device? Remember it runs the full version of Touch Office something not available for any Surface Tablet yet. Sure the old PC version of Office works on the Surface Pro 3 but it's not Touch optimised for Tablets like the version available for iPad. Don't forget all the iLife and iWork Apps are free from Apple on the iPad. Apple applications are more modern and easier to use then MS versions. You get the choice though and can use the MS equivalent or the Apple one. iPad has a ton of productivity Apps, while it may have been  consumption device in 2010 that's not true in 2014. Applications are available for almost anything you want and they are easier to use and lower cost than PC programs. Surface Pro 3 is your father's PC shoehorned into a Tablet form factor, limited appeal and sales. The iPad is a modern easy to use technical solution for the masses. MS no longer targets the iPad with the Surface. That greek tragedy was very costly and failed. They now target the MacBook Air but what will they do when the new version comes out? They also target and hurt sales of their PC OEM's.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: CritAnime on May 22, 2014, 09:32:15 PM
"BLAH BLAH BLAS M$ SUCKS. BLAH BLAH I HATES THEIR PRODUCTS!!" yes we get it.
 
Yes the iPad has lots of productivity software. But having used their software, and noting that a lot of the productivity apps either are paid or that stupid freemium, you know where you have to pay to unlock funtionality, it makes it a bit pointless. Especially as the Surface Pro 3 can run any currently available office suites, including Libra and open office, and then there is also Office 365 and a whole range of other producivity app that are far easier to get one Windows. And iWorks is still not as impressive today as it was when I paid into it when the iPad was released.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 09:58:20 PM
In comparison to a Surface 3, which can do absolutely everything a Windows desktop machine can do - I do consider an iPad Air a "consumption device", yes.

Until I can do something like plug a printer or a hard drive into my iPad via standards based methods like USB, I'll consider them mainly consumption devices.  MS Office on iOS is not remotely comparable to the full desktop version on Windows.  Not even CLOSE.

I say that as someone that has owned every iPad since the first one, as a user of MS Office for iOS as well.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 10:03:05 PM
@Duce

Plugging in a printer is so 20th Century. iPad prints to modern printers wirelessly. When I print to the iPad I'm at least 300-600 feet away upstairs in bed. I would hate to have to get up and plug the iPad to my printer. Maybe if MS was doing something new I could get excited. I haven't seen them do anything other than trying to copy Apple or Google for years, borning.

Yawn............

ZuneHD=Surface Pro 3

Copy copy copy copy.

At least Samsung throws a ton of gimmicky features on their devcies to see what sticks. MS stock was down today for the launch of Surface Pro 3.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 10:25:33 PM
Hey, that's super, and far be it from me to dole out advice in regards to what people do in their own beds.  :)

Once again we get back to the intended use/market of the Surface, I guess.  No one is buying one to sit in bed and print out chocolate chip cookie recipes on a printer downstairs.  The people buying them will be enterprise focused, Windows entrenched users that require real enterprise solutions like Active Directory and such.  These will be people coming from a bulky laptop experience that will absolutely need full Windows functionality and support for all their older programs.

A $99 Android tablet is a better solution for the "cookie recipe" types, and that's just fine.  Sure beats paying $700 for an iPad to sit on the crapper playing Candy Crush like a good majority of iPad users do.

HP ePrint works terrible for me on my iPads, I know that much - and corporations still prefer wired over wireless anyways.  I've used the Lantronix solutions with far better success.  AirPlay (AirPrint) is not big in the enterprise by any stretch.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 10:29:49 PM
@Duce

Another feature that they should drop on the Surface tablet is Windows 8.1.

:)

Windows 8/8.1 has harmed Sony's PC business so much that they are selling it off. Said to see, I once loved buying my Sony Desktops and Vaio laptops. I was primarily a Windows user from 1998-2004 with the exception of some Amiga use. I owned no Mac's during that time. Sony said Win8 killed their PC business. Sony had a 18-year history in the PC business.

:(
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 10:47:07 PM
Why hasn't Windows 8 killed off the other PC makers then?

It could just be that Sony is no longer equipped well enough to do business in the sector - and hey, don't forget!  You can still buy Windows 7 right off a store shelf, not to mention on any PC in the world that you'd ever want.

MS coding an OS didn't kill Sony's PC offerings, Sony did.  I don't see W8 killing Lenovo or Dell, why is that?  Sony is and was over priced, and they got steamrolled.  It's as simple as that, so they sold that arm (Viao) of the company to JIP.  Or perhaps the margins weren't good enough for them, just like how they weren't for IBM who sold out to Lenovo.  Lenovo, who are making money hand over fist in the exact same sector.

Sony is more than capable of making hardware that comes standard with Win 7, aren't they?  Sure they are.  It's the same hardware.  I can buy a PC from Sony with either W7 or W8 on it right now, the OS is up to me.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2095180/sony-sheds-vaio-pc-business-turns-tv-unit-into-subsidiary.html
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 10:53:52 PM
@Duce you will find it's much harder to buy a new Sony machine with Win7 instead of Win8, I have tried.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 22, 2014, 11:02:45 PM
I had zero problems simply selecting W7 vs. W8 on the system builder tool they offer 10 minutes ago.  That being said, that may differ in the US store, I'm in Canada.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 22, 2014, 11:08:20 PM
@Duce

Link please, I found no way to do this in the US store.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on May 23, 2014, 05:23:39 AM
I'm expecting desktop offerings to come to a grinding halt pretty soon. Laptops will just have a small selection to choose from.
If you dig around and if you don't mind paying more you can still get that rarer hardware.
Windows 8 could have thrown a lot of people off, but really they would have tried to stay on Windows 7. Thankfully the mfgrs are pulling back from touchscreen everything.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Megamig on May 23, 2014, 05:55:04 AM
Quote from: yssing;764756
And here I was thinking, that I should get a lifetime membership of amiga.org.
It is not suitable for the SysAdmin to post stuff like this.
Anyway glad I did not throw money after amiga.org

I second that motion.

Nothing about the Surface is Amiga related. If this forum wants to be a alternative OS site how about changing the domain to altos.org.

As for donating, why should I! Many Amiga businesses get free/cheap publicity flogging their products on here and it remains the fault of the Amiga.org not to pursue these businesses for higher contributions to keep this site active.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 23, 2014, 06:23:04 AM
@Megamig (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=8198)

Amiga.org has few articles that are not Amiga related. Feel free to hunt down more and post them as news like I do. I spend time looking for and adding many Amiga related news items. I wish there were more to post but today that's not the case.

@Duce


Microsoft would tend to disagree that the iPad is just a consumption device.

Here is a partial list of their business Apps for iPad


                              Lync 2010 and Lync 2013. These are the full-featured mobile clients for Lync and Lync Online.

                              Microsoft Remote Desktop Connection. This useful app lets you remote desktop into your servers and PCs.
                             
Microsoft Rights Management Sharing.
This app lets you manage RMS document protection in Office 365 (http://winsupersite.com/office-365) for businesses.
                             
Microsoft Tech Companion for iPads.
This newsfeed-type app helps you keep up to date on the Microsoft solutions that interest in most.
                             
Office 365 Admin.
Currently  limited a bit in scope, this app lets you know at a glance whether your  subscribed Office 365 services are up and running. (In other words, you  can't actually use this app to administer Office 365).
                             
Office for iPad.
Microsoft has delivered full featured versions of Word, Excel and PowerPoint for iPad.
                             
Office Mobile (for iPhone only).
Microsoft  provides a mobile version of its Office suite—with mobile versions of  Word, Excel and PowerPoint—for the iPhone only.
                             
OneDrive and OneDrive for Business.
Microsoft's  cloud storage services for individuals and businesses are amply served  on iOS. (Oddly, there is no OneDrive for Business client on Android.)
                             
OneNote.
Microsoft  makes nice OneNote versions for both iPhone and iPad, and the iPad  version was recently updated with the new Office look and feel and other  improvements.
                             
OWA for iPhone, OWA for iPad.
This  app lets you access your (business versions of) Office 365-based email,  calendars and contacts using a Windows Phone-like UI and Microsoft  features such as Conversation View] and messaging flagging. While most  individuals will probably stick to the built-in Mail and Calendar and  Contacts apps, which are excellent, Microsoft will be adding policy  improvements to OWA that will put it over the top for many businesses.  (See below.)
                             
SharePoint Newsfeed.
With this app, you can stay up to up to date with your SharePoint 2013 (http://www.sharepointpromag.com/sharepoint-2013)-based connections, make new posts, upload photos, and more. Using Yammer? There's a dedicated Yammer app too.
                             
Skype.
Microsoft's consumer-oriented communications solution will almost certainly be of interest as well.
                             
Windows Intune Company Portal.
This  mobile app version of the Intune portal lets end users browse apps  you've made available via Microsoft's MDM solution and install them on  their devices.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: rebraist on May 23, 2014, 06:50:08 AM
I3 crappy cpu? And all of our ppc what is? Fake cpu wannabe? If in Amiga Land we had a cpu half the power of an i3 we'd have a true cpu...
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 23, 2014, 08:14:42 AM
MS can believe what they like about their iOS offerings.  With the exception of Skype and OneNote, they are all absolutely awful and gimped (and horribly cloud centric, which many people still dislike) in comparison to their full fledged counterparts, which one can run just fine on, you guessed it - the x86 Surface machines :)  You find me someone that can say Office for iOS is as every bit as usable as Office for Mac or PC and I'll eat my hat.  You can call a Yugo a Ferrari, and even put Ferrari stickers on said Yugo - but that doesn't make it a Ferrari. It makes it a turd plated in fools gold.  iWork is free and is far better, even the press are lambasting Office for iOS, and rightly so - it costs you $100 a year to own virtually nothing.  Office is a "free" program that requires a hundred bucks a year in cloud services fees to really do anything other than be a doc reader.  It's as useful as a polished turd without Office 365 subs.  Again, iWork is free, works well, and is nice and quick.  Office for iOS is horribly slow, just awful.  Advertising the "ribbon" interface wasn't something MS should have ever plugged as a perk, either, lol.

I quit using all MS (and Google) cloud services after the Snowden NSA fiasco.  I trust neither with any of my personal data when it's pretty glaring that the NSA has keys to the backdoor.

http://macdailynews.com/2014/03/27/microsoft-releases-hobbled-office-for-ipad-requires-100year-subscription-to-createedit-documents/

And they wonder why the take up rate on it sucks so bad when iWork is free, not only free - but a lot nicer to use.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: gertsy on May 23, 2014, 08:42:13 AM
And your home network is safer than the cloud yeah? Your ADSL/Cable modem/router's DLP and IDS/IPS has got it all under control.
And using iWork on an iPad ? I'm confused by your view on cloud.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on May 23, 2014, 08:49:32 AM
If tablets are popular, then by default a desktop or 'the old ways' are bad.
Its probably just another fad. People get excited about new technology.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: wawrzon on May 23, 2014, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;764879
If tablets are popular, then by default a desktop or 'the old ways' are bad.
Its probably just another fad. People get excited about new technology.


whoever gets hurt that desktop isnt the everybodys darling, is sick. i have enough of desktop, or rather of those uncanny tower bricks under the table (with loose hard drives sticking out of them), because desktop is long dead, with 386, performa and amiga4000, sorry to say. now, who does really care of form factor of computers as soon as it is compact enough and does its job? i loved the a 600 and i like  surface. may we put this thread to death? its an amiga forum after all!
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: wawrzon on May 23, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
remember?
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 23, 2014, 11:36:43 AM
An i3 while bottom of the line is still powerful enough for a lot of tasks.  Microsoft is still trying to find the sweet spot between battery life and power.  Windows 8.1 spring update fixed most of the glaring problems of Windows 8 by giving the desktop a reason to exist again.  There's still some life in Microsoft and with Blamer gone they could just become the comeback kid.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on May 23, 2014, 01:35:21 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;764735
Looks like the regular Surface RT tablets will be discontinued thus Surface will now start at $799 instead of $499.

Unless someone wants to buy an RT and not a Pro then it won't make any difference. If people want to buy them then they'll keep selling them, if not then it doesn't matter that they no longer sell them.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;764731
@psxphill
 
Surface Pro 3 is cheaper than the Pro 2 because it uses the crappy i3 processor instead of the i5 that's in the Pro 2.

I know & you were comparing the price of a "crappy" i3 surface pro 3 with a surface rt 2 with an even crappier arm.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;764772
Everyone is different but I would never buy or want a machine with an i3.

Don't buy the i3 one then. They also have models with an i5 or i7 if you want.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 23, 2014, 01:59:40 PM
All of you sounds SO full of crap.

First, all 64 bit cpus are more than powerful enough.
I can't really tell the performance differences between an Apple G5, an i3, or my AMD cpus - and I don't need 8 cores or an i7.

Second, desktops remain a completely viable form factor - heck I'm pricing new components right now.

Third, screw the minor differences, all modern OS' are virtually interchangeable.

Fourth - I don't CARE if you like Apple products, they cost too much without offering enough additional value.

Fifth (and finally) - If you don't think our current PPC offerings are powerful enough, you have tried an NG OS on an X1000 or G5.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: B00tDisk on May 23, 2014, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;764880
may we put this thread to death? its an amiga forum after all!


Nah; SysAdmin likes to party like it's 1990 and that ZOMG M$/WINTEL IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!!!!!111ONEONELEVEN is still a thing.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: James2002 on May 23, 2014, 04:06:17 PM
I have I3 sandy bridge 3.30 ghz. (I might upgrade it to I5 Ivy bridge in Aug but I don't know yet.)This old computer has saved me. My AMD computer died.  The hard drive died. I guess I use whatever I can get by.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 23, 2014, 04:18:12 PM
The man said: What? My Laptop had a shag with my Tablet?! No no no, that's just the Surface Pro 3. Why does this link remind me of it?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/20/tennessee_atm_outrage/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 23, 2014, 04:19:14 PM
Quote from: James2002;764902
I have I3 sandy bridge 3.30 ghz. (I might upgrade it to I5 Ivy bridge in Aug but I don't know yet.)This old computer has saved me. My AMD computer died.  The hard drive died. I guess I use whatever I can get by.

Yes, that was the core point I was trying to get across.
It all rather interchangeable these days.
If its fast enough and powerful enough, do I really care what its running on or what OS it uses?

Although, Microsoft and Intel ARE evil (Any company with a dominant market share tends to be).
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Nlandas on May 23, 2014, 05:29:16 PM
Quote from: Megamig;764870
I second that motion.

Nothing about the Surface is Amiga related. If this forum wants to be a alternative OS site how about changing the domain to altos.org.

As for donating, why should I! Many Amiga businesses get free/cheap publicity flogging their products on here and it remains the fault of the Amiga.org not to pursue these businesses for higher contributions to keep this site active.


So don't read the thread. It's in the correct category.
Operating System Specific Discussions » Other Operating Systems

I've seen Mac OS discussed on here for years and if I'm not interested in the topic, I just don't read the post.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Nlandas on May 23, 2014, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Duce;764851
Hey, that's super, and far be it from me to dole out advice in regards to what people do in their own beds.  :)

A $99 Android tablet is a better solution for the "cookie recipe" types, and that's just fine.  Sure beats paying $700 for an iPad to sit on the crapper playing Candy Crush like a good majority of iPad users do.

HP ePrint works terrible for me on my iPads, I know that much - and corporations still prefer wired over wireless anyways.  I've used the Lantronix solutions with far better success.  AirPlay (AirPrint) is not big in the enterprise by any stretch.


Duce, You hit on a another huge point for me and why I don't use Apple product, besides being a nearly vertically integrated monopoly, they don't follow standards very well. They also make their own "standards" that don't work with anyone else's products and are not enterprise friendly. (So much for a "standard.") AirPlay uses Bonjour which doesn't handle being routed, unless you spend for custom networking hardware, etc. It's a nightmare for Enterprise support and is really obviously designed for a home user single subnet network.

If someone likes Apple's closed ecosystem great but as you say, comparing a media consumption tablet like an iPad or Android Tablet to the Surface 3, isn't a good comparison.

As you allude to, did the iPad print to standard existing printers or did people need to go buy a special iPad compatible printer? That's not a standard, that's the tail wagging the dog. It only happened because Apple sold enough units that big companies said, well we better add Apple's custom protocol to our printers. With the trend in Apple iPhone and iPad market share, we might just see a time when large vendors don't think it's worth developing custom Apple only products.

So you end up with Enterprises needing solutions like NetIQ's Mobile iPrint servers solution, so that they can support their existing enterprise printer infrastructure, instead of Apple just supporting the standards based IPP(Internet Printing Protocol) system like virtually everyone else. The same can be said for Android printing, just so you don't think I'm only calling out Apple for not having Enterprise support in it's media consumption tablets.

Both vendors could have come up with a standard based "IPP lite" to build into their media consumption OS, and created a new standard for the entire industry to follow. Then printers could have supported all the new media consumption OS devices, even phones for printing right out of the box without vendor lock in. This is good for us consumers and hopefully a few others open their eyes to Apple being far worse for the overall ecosystem than other big vendors.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Nlandas on May 23, 2014, 05:58:40 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;764880
whoever gets hurt that desktop isnt the everybodys darling, is sick. i have enough of desktop, or rather of those uncanny tower bricks under the table (with loose hard drives sticking out of them), because desktop is long dead, with 386, performa and amiga4000, sorry to say. now, who does really care of form factor of computers as soon as it is compact enough and does its job? i loved the a 600 and i like  surface. may we put this thread to death? its an amiga forum after all!


Laptops - Desktop is dead
Netbooks - Desktop is dead
Tablets - Desktop is dead

The mantra continues. The desktop serves as a place for high end power computing with expansion that isn't possible in any other form factor. The traditional desktop has morphed from a huge tower, to a mini-tower, to a desktop case, to something small enough to mount on the back of the monitor.

Don't get me wrong, portable devices have gained in power and for many people they are certainly good enough for everything that they do with a "computing" device. However, I think you'll find that "desktops" still have a very meaningful place in the computing world for some time to come. There are many job functions that don't require portability and many times when I get up off the couch to use my desktop so that I can more efficiently get the job done. Especially, when it comes to any kind of content creation.

Amazing how many people still connect a mouse and keyboard to their laptops when they really want to get something done.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 23, 2014, 06:50:45 PM
Quote from: Nlandas;764914
...Amazing how many people still connect a mouse and keyboard to their laptops when they really want to get something done.

:rtfm: Actually, I put up with the keyboard, but I still use a mouse.

And I have laptops, netbooks, AND tablets and I still have desktops (btw - you forgot - "cell phones will replace everything" - Ha!)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Darrin on May 23, 2014, 08:00:26 PM
Quote from: Nlandas;764914
Amazing how many people still connect a mouse and keyboard to their laptops when they really want to get something done.


I'll grant you the mouse thing (I always carry a wireless mouse with me), but I never connect a keyboard...

... mainly because I never buy a laptop without a full keyboard, at least a 17" screen and the ability to run games Like WoW at fast speeds with a good frame rate.  I still use the desktop when I get home though.  :D

As you say, crippled keyboards like you find on most laptops and touchpads just don't cut it.  The only reason I'm thinking of a tablet is because I travel so much and pulling my laptop out in the airport/plane is a pain.  If I do take the plunge then it will be an i5 or i7 running Windows.  Meanwhile, my Kindle Fire does quite well for non-work related stuff.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 24, 2014, 01:40:42 AM
Mice don't really interest me, I have carpal tunnel and so just use a track pad.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 24, 2014, 01:54:40 AM
And memory and graphics cards are also important, an i3 with a reasonable amount of ram (say 16 to 24 GB) and a GB or two graphics memory on a good card will perform better than an i5 starved on 4 or 8 GB of RAM and a cheap 512 Mb graphics card.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 24, 2014, 02:25:08 AM
Quote from: persia;764933
And memory and graphics cards are also important, an i3 with a reasonable amount of ram (say 16 to 24 GB) and a GB or two graphics memory on a good card will perform better than an i5 starved on 4 or 8 GB of RAM and a cheap 512 Mb graphics card.

OMFG - The use of those two words "reasonable" and "starved" is just cracking me up.
The ever increasing spiral of hardware demands continue while nothing has really improved in far too long.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: itix on May 24, 2014, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: Nlandas;764914
Laptops - Desktop is dead
Netbooks - Desktop is dead
Tablets - Desktop is dead

The mantra continues. The desktop serves as a place for high end power computing with expansion that isn't possible in any other form factor. The traditional desktop has morphed from a huge tower, to a mini-tower, to a desktop case, to something small enough to mount on the back of the monitor.

Don't get me wrong, portable devices have gained in power and for many people they are certainly good enough for everything that they do with a "computing" device. However, I think you'll find that "desktops" still have a very meaningful place in the computing world for some time to come. There are many job functions that don't require portability and many times when I get up off the couch to use my desktop so that I can more efficiently get the job done. Especially, when it comes to any kind of content creation.

Amazing how many people still connect a mouse and keyboard to their laptops when they really want to get something done.


A docking station is an option to get advantage of desktop and mobile system. At the workplace I have the docking station with proper 24" display but when working abroad I just take my laptop away. Real desktop system could be more powerful but currently my laptop is good enough for my needs.

And when working abroad I always have separate mouse for my laptop. Some of my colleagues even carry an external keyboard in the bag.

On the other hand at home I am using almost exclusively Mac Mini and my PowerBook is not getting much attention anymore since I have got iPad which is better for quick surfing in living room, kitchen, bed etc...

They have pros and cons.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: takemehomegrandma on May 25, 2014, 12:03:28 AM
Quote from: persia;764933
an i3 with a reasonable amount of ram (say 16 to 24 GB) and a GB or two graphics memory on a good card will perform better than an i5 starved on 4 or 8 GB of RAM and a cheap 512 Mb graphics card.


16 to 24 GB of RAM, "reasonable", OMG!? And I thought I was stretching it when I put in 8GB instead of my originally planned 4GB in my latest Core i7 system! :lol:

If you are running Windows 7 like I do (I have actively been avoiding Win 8 this far), then I'd say that 4GB is really enough for most ("regular") people who will likely be utilizing some 50%-70% of this tops in their general usage patterns. Instead, I would say that a good way to *really* increase the general user experience with Windows, is to abandon HDD's for Windows and applications partitions (maybe have a big HDD (or a couble, perhaps RAID mirrored) for data and bulk storage), and go for a *fast* SSD instead.

I'd boldly claim that for most people in their line of general office work (as well as many peoples general computer usage patterns at home, *gamers excluded* of course), a desktop Win7 system based on a Haswell Core i3 with h87 chipset, a SSD like Samsung 840 pro, 4GB of fast RAM, and *NO* GFX card will be just fine! And the price tag for such a system will be very attractive, which will make sense for people/corporations in this ("regular"/office/"low-end") customer segment who doesn't like paying premium money for premium system resources they will likely never use anyway...

My experience says that gamer's usually aims for fast (and/or OC'd) Core i5/z87 systems which makes sense from a money/performance point of view, and focus their money spending on top notch GFX cards instead.

Core i7 mostly makes sense for workstation usage IMHO.

:)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 25, 2014, 12:56:05 AM
No self respecting hardcore gamer would use an i5 machine :)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 25, 2014, 01:09:50 AM
Bah, an i3 with 4 GB ram and no graphics is barely a phone.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on May 25, 2014, 01:34:20 AM
When I put 8GB it made no difference. Windows defaults to using the Virtual memory. Put a faster hard drive in and increase the size of your virtual memory and Windows will be faster and crash less.
You can manually make the OS use a ram disk, but that is more things to set up.
By default Windows is horrible. If you trim down the default install you could get it running well.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Pentad on May 25, 2014, 01:51:36 AM
Quote from: Nlandas;764913
...being a nearly vertically integrated monopoly, they don't follow standards very well. They also make their own "standards" that don't work with anyone else's products and are not enterprise friendly...


That is so funny coming from an Amiga fan.  "Hello, kettle?!  It's pot.  You're black!"  I love these posts!
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: takemehomegrandma on May 25, 2014, 01:55:32 AM
Quote from: Duce;764979
No self respecting hardcore gamer would use an i5 machine :)


I see your point! ;)

Well, I suppose it all comes down to your budget, and how to get most bang for the buck out of your gaming rig. Many gamer's focus their spending's towards graphic card(s) instead of over-the-top CPU power, and settle with a more or less overclocked Core i5, which is quite economic and still very powerful for gaming purposes. Many games of today will still leave *quite a few* of the available cores in the i7 unused, which can make a Core i5 with aggressive clocking a preferable option. ;)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Thorham on May 25, 2014, 01:43:32 PM
Quote from: Duce;764979
No self respecting hardcore gamer would use an i5 machine :)
Real hardcore gamers use whatever let's them run the games they want properly.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 25, 2014, 02:32:16 PM
Quote from: Thorham;765022
Real hardcore gamers use whatever let's them run the games they want properly.

Thank you.
That was a fairly ridiculous comment.
Apparently the poster believes you need to perpetually over spend on hardware in order to be a "real hardcore gamer".
What a geek.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: fishy_fiz on May 25, 2014, 04:20:31 PM
Generally there's not a big difference between an i5 and i7 for gaming. An i7 is quite similar, but has hyperthreading (which doesnt often help and sometimes hinders gaming performance). Additionally intel cpus, minus the k series are pretty much clock locked these days.
As for i3, its far from crappy. A modern i3 will outperform older i5 and i7's in lighter threaded software on occassions, and is very power economical. And lastly, as of hd4000, intel gpus are no longer terrible (they'll beat earlier apus from amd.

Lots of uninformed, innacurate "information" being spewed here, but I guess truth and accuracy arent really the point of the thread.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 25, 2014, 08:24:39 PM
There's a big difference in a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer.

If you wish to class yourself a hardcore gamer, that's by your standards and that's good by me.  Doesn't matter much to me how one brands themselves as long as they have fun.  My apologies if I offended anyone.

That being said, my PERSONAL idea of a hardcore gamer is a guy constantly trying to push the newest games at the highest resolutions and highest settings.  That guy doesn't have even a vague interest in mid range hardware, in general.

Myself, I've been fiddling around with 4k gaming lately - and sorry, your i5 with 4 GB of RAM and a low end card isn't going to get a guy anywhere with that  :)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 25, 2014, 09:14:56 PM
$799 i3 entry level Surface Pro 3 is the best system for 4K hardcore gamers.

:)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Kronos on May 25, 2014, 09:19:03 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765052
$799 i3 entry level Surface Pro 3 is the best system for 4K hardcore gamers.

:)


One has to be a) seriously mentally challenged or b) trollbaiting (really just the same) to make such a statement.

Neither the SurfacePro,nor the MacBookAir or an iPad are aimed at hardcore gamers by any stretch.

Keck not even the WiiU is ;)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 25, 2014, 09:25:23 PM
Quote from: Duce;765048
There's a big difference in a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer.

Yes, one spends far too much money to play games (at a high resolution) that are hard to distinguish from games previously released.
And then feel good about the expenditure.
While I appreciate your attempt to calm those you think you've offended, perhaps you haven't considered HOW you have offended some of them.

Mind you, its your business how you spend your money.
But you still sound foolish.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 25, 2014, 09:51:22 PM
You being sensitive is on you, Iggy.  If you're getting upset about another internet forums user not deeming you a "hardcore gamer" by their own admitted solely personal standards, all the power to you.  If you're feeling offended over semantics and terms like "hardcore gamer" and my definition perhaps being different than yours, that's on you, too.  I didn't insult anyones mother or blaspheme the Lord Jesus here, lol.  

If you are unable to see the differences visually between high end and low end, I'd eat my hat.

As would I if you were not to recognize the differences required in the hardware required between running a game on high settings at 1024x768 vs running a game at 4k (3840x2160) with all settings maxxed, that's just fine too.  You can buy 4k monitors off the shelf these days, and I did - and I love it, but it's not for everyone.

It's all about how you prefer to experience things, and what you find suitable.  You don't have to spend $5000 to enjoy a game, but there are people that do because they want what they consider the "best of the best" experience for themselves, and because they enjoy tinkering with the powerful hardware along the way.  For the next guy down the road, a far lesser machine may keep him completely happy, and that's great - and it's also why the market has a low / mid / high end product for everyone to slide into based on their budget.

Me, I like my gaming experience like this - you may differ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUd9o81rdUA
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 25, 2014, 10:10:20 PM
Quote from: Duce;765056
Me, I like my gaming experience like this - you may differ.

Obviously.
And I don't think you really could offend me.
I just don't share your enthusiasm for hardware that rapidly becomes obsolete.

As to your favored pastime, its your life.

A casual observation, we are way off topic.
Not that the Surface 3 is interesting enough to have sustained my attention.

The discussion on the merits of various cpus does though.
And the i7 holds a very threadbare performance edge that is hard to economically justify.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: carvedeye on May 25, 2014, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Duce;764979
No self respecting hardcore gamer would use an i5 machine :)


Really? I would disagree i have an i5 2500k in my gaming rig with a corsair h100i and have overclocked it from 3.3 ghz to 4.8 ghz and the i5 is the gamers choice as it packs a hell of punch when gaming.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 25, 2014, 11:47:00 PM
Didn't say it couldn't pack a lot of punch, and I'm sure such a system is great for the vast, vast majority of people.

For what I require out of a gaming PC, it wouldn't cut the mustard by a long shot, is all.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 26, 2014, 01:48:16 AM
Quote from: Duce;765066
Didn't say it couldn't pack a lot of punch, and I'm sure such a system is great for the vast, vast majority of people.

For what I require out of a gaming PC, it wouldn't cut the mustard by a long shot, is all.

Out of curiosity, what i7 do you employ?
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 26, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
Maybe it was a Windows 8 thing but the two i3 systems  I tried we're slow as f*ck and unresponsive sometimes.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: fishy_fiz on May 26, 2014, 02:36:00 AM
What a crock. An i7 and i5 trade blows for superiority in gaming. As already stated hyperthreading (the only real difference between the 2) sometimes hurts performance for gaming giving an i5 the edge. Clock for clock there's no real difference.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 26, 2014, 02:37:17 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765070
Maybe it was a Windows 8 thing but the two i3 systems  I tried we're slow as f*ck and unresponsive sonetimes.

Lack of cores will do that.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: fishy_fiz on May 26, 2014, 02:44:05 AM
Nah, its more likely other crappy h/w in a system holding the system back. Ive run Win8 on older dual core systems and Win8 ran nicely. Dont forget that unlike an i5 an i3 has hyperthreading, giving it 4 threads, which is much more useful for an OS than for single tasks (ie. most gaming)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 26, 2014, 06:18:49 AM
Hey Iggy,

In this machine, which is actually an older gaming PC from a few years ago - an i7 2600K, 32 GB RAM, nVidia 590.  My main gaming machine has a 4930K oc'ed a wee bit, 32 GB RAM, and 2 Titan cards.  Original Titan cards, not the new Titan Black.  Both run SSD's, this machine having a 240 GB OCZ for the boot drive and a standard SATA 1 TB drive for media, and the other more powerful machine has a 1 TB Samsung SSD solely.  Those drives were on sale recently for $460 so I had to snap one up, been real happy with it thus far.

The 4930 runs a bit hot for my tastes and I should have water cooled it from the start, but the Zalman cooler I have on it keeps it within range.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 26, 2014, 01:23:37 PM
Quote from: Duce;765079
Hey Iggy,

In this machine, which is actually an older gaming PC from a few years ago - an i7 2600K, 32 GB RAM, nVidia 590.  My main gaming machine has a 4930K oc'ed a wee bit, 32 GB RAM, and 2 Titan cards.  Original Titan cards, not the new Titan Black.  Both run SSD's, this machine having a 240 GB OCZ for the boot drive and a standard SATA 1 TB drive for media, and the other more powerful machine has a 1 TB Samsung SSD solely.  Those drives were on sale recently for $460 so I had to snap one up, been real happy with it thus far.

The 4930 runs a bit hot for my tastes and I should have water cooled it from the start, but the Zalman cooler I have on it keeps it within range.

Nice cpu, but I don't understand why you are not water cooling.
At 130 watts, those do run hot, AND they are expensive.
Better cooling would increase the lifespan of the processor.
And, since you've spent a lot of money, an extra $100 or so seems like a minor outlay.

Also for less threaded tasks, the 4.8 GHz i5 might give you a run for your money at a fraction of the price.

Personally I would have forgone the SSDs and set up 4 disk RAID arrays (I don't trust storage media).
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 26, 2014, 07:09:53 PM
It stays well within reasonable heat envelopes with the Zalman cooler, and I'm not a big fan of the closed loop water cooling solutions.  I like water cooling, but only when I do it myself, and it just wasn't worth the effort on this machine.  The machine sees a fair bit of transport to LAN parties and such, so keeping it simple worked for me.

SSD's are far faster than even the old WD Raptor RAID 0 arrays I used to use, so I went that way.

As for i5 vs. i7, I also do a fair bit of video and graphics work on the machine as well, so I opted for the i7.  Had it been solely for gaming I liked would have gone 780ti cards vs. the Titan's as well.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 26, 2014, 07:29:27 PM
Yeah, Raptor access time is great, but even in a RAID array I'm sure an SSD would exceed their transfer rate.
I have a Raptor in my G5 MorphOS machine and have considered an SSD, but since it would be limited to the SATA1 transfer rate it isn't as attractive.

Its been awhile since I worked with video, but I remember how cpu dependent changes in format or resolution could be.
So I can see your argument for using the most powerful processor you can afford.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: gertsy on May 27, 2014, 11:12:48 PM
Moved from Raptors to dual 450MBps SSD RAID 0 on SATA3 for my new rig last year.
ATTO benchmark gives me consistent 800MBps read and close to the same writes. That's raw throughput for medium to large reads/writes. Speed!
Just gotta make sure the OS is backed up monthly, You could trust the Raptors through thick and thin but SSD: Time will tell.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 27, 2014, 11:17:24 PM
I feel the same about SSD's, Gertsy, and finally just built myself a FreeNAS box full of WD Red drives for backups.

Once every 24 hours all my systems plop a disk image file of all their drives on that FreeNAS machine, which is running a pretty hefty RAID 5 setup using ZFS.  Works a treat.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 28, 2014, 12:45:28 AM
@ Duce

I can't imagine pumping that much info through my home network, but then with the latest routers, why not?

Interesting to see Raptors do that well.

I expected a larger margin on an SATA 3 interface with SSDs.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 28, 2014, 01:21:04 AM
The latest verbiage from MS hints that they are in inventory clearance mode for Windows on ARM.

From Panay and the Surface team

"Windows on ARM continues to be an important part of the Windows strategy. The Surface 2 (which runs Windows RT) is a great choice for both play and getting work done."

Don't expect any new Surface tablets from MS running with Windows RT. If you want one maybe get Surface 2 on a fire-sale.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 28, 2014, 01:51:11 AM
I have no doubts they will kill RT off entirely.  That being said, they simply haven't announced it yet.  They should be ashamed for ever bringing RT out, imo.  Nothing says "customer satisfaction" like buying an RT tablet with a "Windows" sticker on it then realizing it actually doesn't run traditional x86 programs in the least.

This last Surface event was originally sent out as "just something small", hinting about the Surface Mini, which was supposed to be an RT device as well.  Depending on who you believe, MS may have indeed made many of these and at the last minute changed the press release to be solely for the Surface 3.  Some Windows oriented sites claim up 10,000 to 20,000 of the Surface Mini RT tablets were indeed made, but they put them into stillbirth mode from Elop's orders.  I'm sure in 20 years some will be uncovered in a landfill in Alamogordo or somewhere, ET cartridge style.  :roflmao:

http://bgr.com/2014/05/20/microsoft-surface-mini-release/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 28, 2014, 01:59:55 AM
@Duce

Why would they announce Surface RT is dead when they still have millions of them sitting in warehouses? Announcing it's death now would cost them another 900 million dollar write off. Best to stay quite about it for a while and sell off inventory. The Surface Mini might have been a small tablet but it would have lost them big dollars in losses if they released it. The Mini Tablet market is overcrowded and brutal to get sales in. MS would save money just putting any Surface Mini's it already made in the landfill.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 28, 2014, 04:34:51 AM
I understand your point entirely, but I also think if RT is turning out to be such a terrible mistake for them as you or I think it is, they might be better off cutting their losses in order to protect what they still have in regards to a "good name".  I'd honestly just kill the line off entirely, fire sale whatever is left after saying "RT is over" and let it be.  I compare it much to the Apple Newton fiasco, I'd just kill the damned thing off, take the jokes people will inevitably make, and cut my losses.  I'd quit playing the charade and take a bullet on it and just dump the things off at $99 a pop and never mention "RT" again.

RT is a disaster, and I'm convinced were it not related to Windows Phone so tightly and MS still trying to merge RT and WP8, they would have axed it long ago.  It's terrible.  I've heard people make jokes comparing it to Blackberry 10, but it's actually far, far worse.  BB10 is too little too late, where as RT as far as I am concerned is a very ugly wolf in sheeps clothing that I honestly consider that Microsoft has been actively deceptive in the marketing of it.  I *DO* know people that have bought an RT tablet off the shelves of Best Buy, having seen the things priced reasonably, the sales staff and in store documentation boasting about it "being Windows!", then they get the thing home and it runs no real Windows software.  A friend of my mother's did exactly that, looking for a little tablet to take on vacation to email her grandkids and also to play the little games she plays on her Windows PC.  At least she can still email with it, lol.  Otherwise it's a rather expensive doorstop.

RT has been worse for MS than the Zune, the Kin, than pretty much ANYTHING, lol.  People saw a "Windows" tablet in stores, went out and bought them, only to find out they do not run "real Windows" in the least.
RT is far different than the Zune, however.  I owned a Zune.  I loved the hardware - just LOVED it, but MS were too late to the game and I got sucked into the Apple ecosystem where I can find everything I could ever possibly want.  RT is just plain bad, it's not "too little, too late", it's just plain bad.

Try one, I dare you.  

Better yet, go to Best Buy, grab any various Windows Desktop App off the shelf, wander up to the RT tablets, wait for a Salesman to ask you if you need help.  Show him the boxed software, mention you want to run it on "that" tablet.  I'm willing to put 75% odds that he'd sell you the software and the RT tablet without blinking, and all the wishful thinking won't let you run that copy of say Elements on the Surface RT.

Money isn't that important to MS.  They lost billions over the years on the Xbox line, only starting to get above water after the 360 eventually became profitable.

It's been estimated that losses between Windows Phone, Skype and Xbox collectively may cost MS $2.5 in losses a year.  MS can eat those losses easily if their numbers show that the offerings in that sector will eventually become profitable.  WP is gaining traction, but it's still a loss.  Skype, I have no doubt it will become profitable, but I also fear MS will screw it up long before that happens - it's bad enough already.  Xbox division I think will be flogged off to someone else entirely.  Xbox One is bleeding money as well, they underestimated Sony and over estimated Kinect, for one.

I'd give RT the proverbial Viking Funeral it deserves.  I don't think the Surface 3, the full version will fare much better market share wise, but there at least *is* some market for it in Enterprise.

If I were MS, I'd simply give up the ghost and drop the hammer to save face.  Just admit RT was a mistake, flog what is left off for cheap, if they sell, great - if not, oh well.  I'd consider that the "right" thing to do rather than the rather evasive and deceptive marketing they have been doing with RT.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 28, 2014, 09:07:58 AM
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/05/20/microsoft-corporation-launches-thermonuclear-war-o.aspx
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: gertsy on May 28, 2014, 10:05:44 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765190
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/05/20/microsoft-corporation-launches-thermonuclear-war-o.aspx

Regardless of the noise. RT makes sense in regard to a runtime OS on alternative (to Intel) processors.  Albeit ARM only at this stage.
It's a case of damned if you do or don't for M$.
If all it achieves is get Intel out of its rut and into more competitive thinking about heat and power then that's something. The advances in Intel "i" CPU tech from Surface Pro to Surface Pro 3 are quite marked. It's the threat of market disruption that drives advancements for incumbents.
IMO having an i7(8 core) in a tablet is ludicrous. i5(4 core) is nigh on overkill. An i3(2 core) makes sense.  I am guessing people questioning the speed of an i3, haven't used a recent one or have other problems on their machine.  In general tablet type usage "browsing, consuming content, social, email" on a PC there is little speed difference between processors of the same release. Once you start doing productive multitasking stuff there is a obvious difference.

Sent this on an Android Kindle Fire 2 core. And it is markedly less snappy than my Wife's Surface RT or my daughter's hand-me-down iPad 2 for that matter.

Don't hear much bagging of the Kindle Fire here. ;)

As to the article, they don't even know the difference between PC sales and laptop. How a Surface would compete against a PC I don't know. Nor do they understand the concept of market disruption. Fool is appropriate.

Without prejudice and in good humour; If I were Microsoft I wouldn't be looking the Amiga.org Forum for marketing/product advice. ;)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 28, 2014, 10:12:22 AM
Same was said about Google when they started selling the Nexus devices.
Their defense was then "we wanted to show our Android partners what we considered the baseline Android handset experience".

It did work out quite well for them, all things considered - and has bettered the Android handset market experience.  Most Android handset makers have trimmed down their "Cruft" factor considerably, with the exception of Samsung.  Motorola, HTC, Sony and even LG have an experience that isn't *TOO* far off the vanilla Android experience lately.  Samsung is still an unmitigated trainwreck of dopey skins and useless add-ons on top of Android, though.  The new Motorola phones, you'd be hard pressed to spot much difference between Android on them and the plain jane vanilla experience, and they have won many fans with this.
A vast majority of people that bitch about Android being buggy and slow rightfully do so because all they have ever used is the crapware Samsung type TouchWiz UI garbage.

It worked well for Google and didn't harm the competition.  Many people, and I am one of them - love the vanilla Android experience on the Nexus devices, I just never got into them too much because I always required a card slot for additional storage.  I love my old Google Play edition HTC One, and I despised the plain HTC version with their UI.

MS is doing the same thinking with the Surface line, trying to pass it off as a "baseline standard" as to what a Windows tablet *should* be.  Quite frankly, up to the Surface 3, I think they have failed at it miserably and I agree that they have done nothing more than creating friction with their long time hardware partners, but I'm sure they will learn this soon the hard way.

The Surface 3 is a far better device, but it's not going to take over the world.  Most people find something like an iPad a far better option usage case wise, since a good chunk of people buy tablets as consumption devices solely.  There's a market for the full Windows experience on a tablet, but it's a small and very specific market - the enterprise market, really.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: gertsy on May 28, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
Well, time will tell Duce!
It's called Market disruption and it's considered a win/win even if you fail.
Whoops nearly called you dice. Just getting used to this Kindle Fire auto-correct.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 28, 2014, 10:48:25 AM
How do you like the Fire, anyways?

Got one of the original Kindle's for reading and just love the thing, but haven't had much hands on with the newer ones yet.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: gertsy on May 28, 2014, 11:34:00 PM
I've always liked the original Kindle with the Ink display. Especially the new version.
The fire is a bit of an enigma. It's a 7 inch display at a usable resolution +720 but acts a a mobile device online. So YouTube for instance plays low red by default.
I put a 720p blu ray movie on it however ad it looked sharp and played beautifully.
The carousel GUI is okay but sometimes sluggish the same as browsing in Silk(not so silk)
 PDFs look generally crap. Which could be a conversion issue.
Email, photos Music are great.

So not for all?
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 29, 2014, 01:30:09 AM
Former Windows 8 developer and MS employee said it's time to kill the Surface off.

http://stratechery.com/2014/time-kill-surface/

http://twit.tv/show/this-week-in-tech/459
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 29, 2014, 01:40:42 AM
If Surface sucks what is MS doing right? This looks cool and very interesting.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/05/microsoft-corporation-brings-real-time-translator-to-skype/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 30, 2014, 11:45:46 AM
The Skype thing looks great, if it works well.  But I'm 110% sure all the video demos are just canned, B roll film of it working nearly perfectly with the fails edited out.  It's too glaring to miss the fact there's a man of Indian persuasion speaking English to a woman speaking German and BY LAWD, it's working flawlessly, translated on the fly.  I do not wish to seem racial here, but the various accents of people REALLY throw recognition software.  I've got a Scottish friend that owns an iPhone and when he uses Siri, he might as well be speaking Klingon to it.  The video of the demo just seems too "put on".  If it works as shown, it'll be revolutionary - but I'm willing to wager Google gets their product far better in a far shorter amount of time than anyone else.  Google now (and the related speech recognition and translation services they have) is vastly superior than anything else by a wide margin.

Honestly, it reminds me of a youtube clip that was recently released by a broadband provider in the US.  

The video showed a bunch of "hardcore gamers" trying this FANTASTIC LAG FREE GAMING EXPERIENCE at some mock convention and these guys were just raving about it.  1 minute after the clip was released to the public, it was duly pointed out the game said HARDCORE GAMERS were trying does not even come in an online/multiplayer form, lol.  There's not much truth in advertising.

Kinect is, quite frankly - the sh!ts.  I have a hard time swallowing that MS have made Skype that much better, and it all is coming from the same company.  IMHO (Skype), it's 100% less stable and 1000% more bloated than it was just a few years ago.  I'm forced to use Skype on a daily basis and I just despise it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on May 30, 2014, 06:37:19 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765230
Former Windows 8 developer

It doesn't appear they are a developer.
 
"Back when I was a category manager for the Windows 8 app store"
 
I'd be interested in when he left, he asserts that Windows 8 is broken and needs fixing when it's 18 months old and has had two updates since (and is now called 8.1).
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 31, 2014, 12:15:13 AM
The guy that wrote the article has pretty fairly been accused of overstating his importance while he was at MS, and has also been accused of writing solely for "clickbait" factor - which I tend to agree on the latter.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 31, 2014, 12:34:35 AM
This reminds me of the old Windows Vista days when it was almost universally hated but had a few defenders. MS solved the Vista problem by killing it and replacing with something better. I never bought or used Vista and I'll never buy or use Win8.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 31, 2014, 01:02:31 AM
Have you tried the "spring update" of 8.1?  It fixes most of the problems.  App Store apps now appear in the task bar, there are arrows to guide you and you can close/minimise App store apps with a trackpad/mouse.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 31, 2014, 01:05:49 AM
8.1 update 1 is a vast improvement, but I can see why people dislike it still.

Outside of the slightly "flatter" appearance, you couldn't really tell this W8 PC from the W7 one beside it.  All the Legoland Metro crap can be tucked away and never seen again quite easily, and W8 is far faster than 7.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on May 31, 2014, 03:17:54 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765358
This reminds me of the old Windows Vista days when it was almost universally hated but had a few defenders. MS solved the Vista problem by killing it and replacing with something better. I never bought or used Vista and I'll never buy or use Win8.

People are always told to hate new Microsoft operating systems. For Windows 95 it was because it replaced Program Manager with the Start Menu. If you're the type of person that takes notice of what other people say then you'll always have problems upgrading.
 
What seems to happen is that people accept changes in the version after they are introduced. So Window 95 was bad, Windows 98 was ok then Millenium was bad. Windows XP was good, Vista was bad, Windows 7 was good, Windows 8 was bad.
 
I don't know if this is because of finally becoming familiar with it, or because it sounds better if one time you hate something and the next you write about how "you know you all hated the last version, but you'll love this one".
 
I used Vista, it had many improvements over XP. It was for example the first supported 64 bit release (XP 64 was pretty much a barely supported pre-release of Vista). If you hate change and don't need any of the new features then you'll never want to upgrade.
 
I find it funny that in response to being forced from XP some people have been trying to switch to Linux, which doesn't solve the problem of change and introduced an even bigger learning curve. However this is glossed over because someone told them it was great.
 
I expect people will be told to love Windows 9, including metro apps & the start screen. At that point they will become more popular.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on May 31, 2014, 05:49:00 AM
Microsoft hasn't used the word "metro" in a couple years, and then only as a code name, never officially.  The new apps are Windows Store Apps.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on May 31, 2014, 10:26:13 AM
And every person in the MS related Press areas still refers to it as "Metro" behind closed doors.  Some call it Windows Store Apps, some say "Modern UI".  Call it what you like.  I call the brick a brack "formerly known as Metro" simply "Legoland Design School".  

Even the most fervent MS press folks like MJ Foley, Ed Bott, and our own illustrious ex Amigan, Paul Thurrott use the Metro term in passing still.  You can gild a turd, but I can still smell the stink :)  But let's not get into semantics, it's just a name.

It (Metro) indeed was full, blazing official term at one time, but they hit a lawsuit snag on it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on May 31, 2014, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765358
This reminds me of the old Windows Vista days when it was almost universally hated but had a few defenders. MS solved the Vista problem by killing it and replacing with something better. I never bought or used Vista and I'll never buy or use Win8.

Actually, they just kept polishing it and released the results as Win7 (which seems to be much better received).
I may buy Win8.1 now that I have the Start button back.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on May 31, 2014, 07:13:18 PM
Quote from: persia;765384
Microsoft hasn't used the word "metro" in a couple years, and then only as a code name, never officially. The new apps are Windows Store Apps.

It was still the official name after RTM but it changed before GA.
 
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsappdev/archive/2012/08/06/building-your-own-windows-runtime-components-to-deliver-great-metro-style-apps.aspx
 
Apparently an internal memo said they had to change it because of a trademark while the public statement was it was never meant to be an official name. This appears to have been a surprise to the majority of Microsoft employees who appear to have been under a different impression.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on May 31, 2014, 08:49:19 PM
Windows 95 was buggy until more programs were written for it. The other complaint was that you needed 4MB of memory to run it.
I didn't like Windows 98 because it integrated Internet Explorer with everything. Plus you needed 32MB to run it. Windows 98 may have been more stable.

I like Linux because you can get a small install and there are versions that are point and click except for preparing the hard drive.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on May 31, 2014, 08:52:02 PM
Quote from: Duce;765389
And every person in the MS related Press areas still refers to it as "Metro" behind closed doors.  Some call it Windows Store Apps, some say "Modern UI".  Call it what you like.  I call the brick a brack "formerly known as Metro" simply "Legoland Design School".  

Even the most fervent MS press folks like MJ Foley, Ed Bott, and our own illustrious ex Amigan, Paul Thurrott use the Metro term in passing still.  You can gild a turd, but I can still smell the stink :)  But let's not get into semantics, it's just a name.

It (Metro) indeed was full, blazing official term at one time, but they hit a lawsuit snag on it.

I call it 1996 AOL wants their interface back.

http://obamapacman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/AOL-1996-vs.-Microsoft-Windows-8.jpg
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: James2002 on June 01, 2014, 12:43:58 AM
Cant we go back to win95? No more metro junk.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on June 01, 2014, 03:12:42 AM
Well the desktop is again the centre of Windows 8.1 function.  Really the difference between 7 and  8.1 is a slight difference in how the Windows ball (called Start a decade ago) functions. Rather than flop up it opens a tiled display....
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 01, 2014, 08:58:58 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765420
I call it 1996 AOL wants their interface back.

AOL was hugely successful with non techies, I'm not surprised they want it back.
 
You're going to try harder.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Iggy on June 01, 2014, 12:46:23 PM
Quote from: James2002;765434
Cant we go back to win95? No more metro junk.

No thank you.
After recently experimenting with a new Win98SE install, I decided I am very grateful for the newer, non-DOS, NT based OS'.
The whole registry concept really sucks, but the OS is much more stable and support of multi-tasking is more robust.

Now if ReactOS ever gets of the ground...
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 02, 2014, 02:14:55 PM
http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/the-sorry-state-of-windows-81-update-1-236008

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/what-heck-happening-windows
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and it's crappy
Post by: gertsy on June 02, 2014, 03:06:07 PM
Quote from: Iggy;765401
Actually, they just kept polishing it and released the results as Win7 (which seems to be much better received).
....


Agree, but Microsoft didn't stop the media from convincing people it was a totally new OS, and in some cases entertained the hype. It wasn't totally new. And it didn't have a "totally re-written Kernel" as one notable insider "Netted". Though they certainly cleared out the bloat and reworked some key performance issues. Media is noise to sell or noise to cut down. IT media doubly so.  It's conspiracy, or truth.  It's rarely balanced these days.

So I guess my only option is to drop Windows totally and move onto another OS, such as........?
Actually nothing comes to mind that I could use productively for what I do....  
Perhaps something will come out in 2015 that's "much better".  Hmm.. I wonder, and maybe it will be to rave and proclamation. What a nice surprise that will be.

@James2002; Yes Win 95, that's the way. Things were so much simpler then. InfoWorld would probably agree with you, but I'm not going there.

@Sysadmin; Perhaps you could fix the title of Amiga Org's most popular posting thread so it's at least literate.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on June 02, 2014, 04:17:19 PM
8.1 has a lot of stuff left over from Vista...
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 02, 2014, 05:06:23 PM
@gertsy

Why can't you use OS X.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 02, 2014, 10:06:30 PM
Over 800 million iOS devices sold, no wonder MS no longer try's to complete with iPad. The MS Surface Tablet failed experiment will be over in the next two years or less just like Zune was.  

http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/2/5772344/apple-wwdc-2014-stats-update
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Trev on June 03, 2014, 12:49:35 AM
It's too bad. The Surface pen interface works very well and is significantly less expensive than combining another system with a Wacom Cintiq, for example. (Edit: Assuming you have the right software installed, but it's software you'd have on your workstation anyway.)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 03, 2014, 01:19:20 AM
@ Trev

FYI

Adding a pressure sensitive pen to the iPad is $80-100 and it has more pressure levels then the pen included with Surface Pro 3. Even Surface Pro 2 has more pressure levels than 3.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Trev on June 03, 2014, 01:37:44 AM
As much as I like them--and I do--iPads are still just iPads. If they were actual desktop replacements running Mac OS X, I'd view them differently. Being able to do "everything" on a Surface Pro is a big draw. (I'm still going to game on my PC and consoles, but I'm sure you get my meaning.)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on June 03, 2014, 04:11:24 AM
You didn't watch today's WWDC Keynote.  iPhones, iPads, Macs are all extensions of the same thing.  It's an information ecosystem that shares everything within it.  If you are at all interested in Apple watch the Keynote, the vision is back.  

Quote from: Trev;765595
As much as I like them--and I do--iPads are still just iPads. If they were actual desktop replacements running Mac OS X, I'd view them differently. Being able to do "everything" on a Surface Pro is a big draw. (I'm still going to game on my PC and consoles, but I'm sure you get my meaning.)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Trev on June 03, 2014, 05:04:31 AM
I'm typing this on my iPhone, but let me know when I can run Xcode on it. ;-)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 03, 2014, 05:30:50 AM
Quote from: Trev;765607
I'm typing this on my iPhone, but let me know when I can run Xcode on it. ;-)

This 27 inch iPad will run Xcode fine for you.

:)


http://www.cnet.com/products/apple-imac-2013/

Don't forget the Track pad for an authentic experience.

https://www.apple.com/magictrackpad/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Duce on June 03, 2014, 06:04:13 AM
Quote from: persia;765602
You didn't watch today's WWDC Keynote.  iPhones, iPads, Macs are all extensions of the same thing.  It's an information ecosystem that shares everything within it.  If you are at all interested in Apple watch the Keynote, the vision is back.


I watched the keynote, and all I saw was Apple attempting to drag people even further into their walled garden ecosystem.  An ecosystem it's already hard to get out of.  I don't trust Apple any more than I do any other company with their clouds, I guess.  I say this as an owner and user of Apple products.

I also see them trying to do to OS X what they have done to iOS, the "appification" of everything.  Nothing new, really.

I remember when WWDC was a highly anticipated event that was sure to bring some real innovations.  The highlight of WWDC this year was Swift, the rest was just rehash and slight evolution, or making things functional that should have been better long ago (Mail).
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: bloodline on June 03, 2014, 08:01:27 AM
Quote from: Duce;765612
The highlight of WWDC this year was Swift


Really? I'm seeing plenty of people popping up saying how Swift was the best thing at the WWDC... But having just spent the night reading the programming guide, I'm have serious issues with the syntax and concepts. It feels like "Pascal#" and I hated pascal.

In my mind, I can't see why developers will bother with it, as ling as C/C++/ Obj-C exist... There isn't a compelling reason to move to this ugly and opaque language.

Perhaps I'm just too old now and stuck on the C syntax too much...
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 03, 2014, 10:19:42 AM
Quote from: Trev;765595
As much as I like them--and I do--iPads are still just iPads. If they were actual desktop replacements running Mac OS X, I'd view them differently. Being able to do "everything" on a Surface Pro is a big draw. (I'm still going to game on my PC and consoles, but I'm sure you get my meaning.)

 
Quote from: persia;765602
You didn't watch today's WWDC Keynote. iPhones, iPads, Macs are all extensions of the same thing. It's an information ecosystem that shares everything within it. If you are at all interested in Apple watch the Keynote, the vision is back.

Being an extension of the same thing isn't the same as being able to run everything. It's exactly the same problem as you can run applications for Windows RT on a Windows 8.1 desktop, but you can't run a desktop app on Windows RT.
 
The vision might be back, but it's the same as Microsofts old vision that "everyone" hated. I expect that because it's Apple and not Microsoft people will like the idea though.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: tone007 on June 03, 2014, 09:20:38 PM
A couple of years ago I took Dell up on a deal for a $199 low-spec x86 tablet (Atom, 2GB/32GB) with Windows 7 installed; a Latitude ST. I knew Windows 7 wasn't a tablet-friendly OS, so I proceeded to install Windows 8 on it which improved the performance and usability quite a bit. The tablet (along with a docking station, monitor, keyboard and mouse) replaced my desktop PC at work.  I used it for roughly 6 months before deciding the Atom CPU wasn't fast enough (couldn't full-screen YouTube videos without choppiness.) For most work purposes, however, it was fine.  I'm sure if it had been an i3 I would've been able to stick with it as a primary (as well as super portable) work machine.  As many Android devices as I've had, I'm still aware there is no replacement for full PC capability, which is also why Windows RT seemed fairly pointless to me.

Maybe this year Dell will offer me an i3 tablet for not too much more and I can try again.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: psxphill on June 03, 2014, 10:10:34 PM
Quote from: tone007;765650
For most work purposes, however, it was fine. I'm sure if it had been an i3 I would've been able to stick with it as a primary (as well as super portable) work machine.

There are faster atom's than what was in the latitude st now. But if you want an i3 then they do this for $799.99 or they do an atom one for $429.99 with less disk space
 
http://www.dell.com/us/p/dell-venue-11i-pro/pd?oc=ftcwe04h&model_id=dell-venue-11i-pro
 
The Venue 8 pro is atom only but starts at a better $249.99 and the Venue 7 & 8 are arm and run android and start at $149.99
 
http://androidandme.com/2014/06/news/dells-affordable-venue-7-and-venue-8-tablets-announced-at-computex/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 03, 2014, 10:29:21 PM
@psxphill

The difference is Apple never promised you could run Mac applications on the iPad. Also the iPad has more applications than Mac OS X! Microsoft created their own confusion promising the world and then delivering a half baked OS upgrade that does desktop and tablet but is not good at either. Confusing Frankien OS no thanks I'll stick with Windows 7. I skipped Vista too and am still happy about that.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: persia on June 03, 2014, 11:08:57 PM
Yes, the 8.1 Spring Update to Windows, which made the desktop experience tolerable really ruins the tablet experience.  The desktop so vital to the success of the desktop now sucks the life out of the tablet experience....  There's a reason Apple forked iOS off of OS X.

(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-05/29/10/enhanced/webdr05/anigif_enhanced-20245-1401374636-19.gif)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Bif on June 04, 2014, 08:52:47 AM
I just had another frustrating Windows 8.1 experience trying to help the wife with her computer tonight.

Print output was getting jumbled from an online Avery printing program. So to figure out where things are going wrong I saved the PDF file it created on its web server to the local drive, and opened it with whatever PDF file viewer/printer was installed to print it out instead of using the one embedded in the browser. There seemed to be one called "Reader" that I context opened the PDF with. It turns out this is a "Metro" app. So when I am done I go to close "Reader". Oh wait, I remember I can't easily figure out how to close a Metro app. I guess they just close themselves after not being used for a while like all tablet OS's do? I really don't know, and I shouldn't have to figure out some strange incantation of how to close it, so I just switch back to the desktop view where I had opened the PDF from in Windows Explorer. So OK, I'll just delete the PDF now that I am done with it. "You can't delete this file, a program is using it" is what it gives me. Facepalm. Now this isn't a major problem, but it's just yet one more weird-ism encountered trying to use Windows 8.x. They sure add up in a hurry.

Now I admit, I didn't love Windows 3.11 because I was coming from an Amiga (and OS/2), so it just felt inferior. But I could get stuff done intuitively enough within its limitations, so it was kind of OK for what it was. I loved Windows 95. I've never really had a problem with 98/SE, ME, Vista, or 7. Sure I've run into the odd bugs, but what was ever completely perfect. You know, if I had to use a Surface, I might even be OK with that too, though I have never tried one - I just choose not to go there when I already live in very well supported Android land - which I had no problem figuring out how to use (or iOS either). I can use Linux well enough too without being baffled unless it is unsupported hardware. Hell, even the old Macs I used "made sense", even if I wasn't a fan. I could even say the same for DOS - it could be hard to use, but it made sense for what it was.

But I'm sorry, even the improved Windows 8.1 is a complete piece of #$%^ Jekyll and Hyde job. It's the merging of the new tile apps with the old system, they just don't get along at all and create all sorts of confusing scenarios. You will never convince me otherwise that it isn't anything but a horrible mistake.

I'm not convinced they will be able to fix it unless they simply drop one side or the other completely - it will be interesting to see what they do as either way there will be a ton of blow back. As much as I can't really stand Apple, they did the right thing keeping desktop and tablet completely separate.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 04, 2014, 10:28:52 AM
Quote from: Bif;765677
But I'm sorry, even the improved Windows 8.1 is a complete piece of #$%^ Jekyll and Hyde job. It's the merging of the new tile apps with the old system, they just don't get along at all and create all sorts of confusing scenarios. You will never convince me otherwise that it isn't anything but a horrible mistake.

Agreed, you hit the nail on the head to the problem they created for their customers and themselves.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on June 04, 2014, 12:10:59 PM
Those lovely modern OSes you have to figure out if it is a tap, a slide, a tap twice.
To close an app Windows 8: Top left corner with the mouse and right click.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: persia on June 04, 2014, 12:27:20 PM
A Windows 8 App runs full screen and just like a full screen app on OS X, moving the trackpad/mouse pointer to the top of the screen reveals a hidden bar that allows you to close it.  On OS X of course it also allows you to make it non-full screen, but maybe Windows 9 will add that....


(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-05/29/11/enhanced/webdr08/anigif_original-23483-1401378011-13.gif)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 04, 2014, 12:41:37 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765654
The difference is Apple never promised you could run Mac applications on the iPad.

When did Microsoft promise you could run desktop applications on Surface RT?
 
Quote from: Bif;765677
Oh wait, I remember I can't easily figure out how to close a Metro app. I guess they just close themselves after not being used for a while like all tablet OS's do? I really don't know, and I shouldn't have to figure out some strange incantation of how to close it, so I just switch back to the desktop view where I had opened the PDF from in Windows Explorer.

Possible ways of closing a metro app
 
Alt f4
click the close button in the top right
right click on the task bar icon and click close
open task manager and end task it
 
The close button and task bar icon might only be in the latest Windows 8.1 update, but Alt f4 even works in Windows 8. Alt-f4 has been used to close windows since the 80's.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 04, 2014, 03:38:29 PM
Quote from: psxphill;765686
When did Microsoft promise you could run desktop applications on Surface RT?

By giving customers the standard Windows Desktop in Surface RT it's implied that it's Windows compatible. It looks like Windows but really isn't since no Windows legacy apps will run. Windows 8 was and is a massive failure, almost all of the team that created it has been fired from Microsoft up to the President of the Windows Division Steven Sinofsky and all the way up to the CEO Steve Ballmer. Microsoft counts all PC's that ship with Win8 as a new Windows 8 customer when in fact most immediately get reimaged with Windows 7. I never thought something could fail more than Visa but Win8 achieved that. Microsoft's best customers Fortune 500 companies shune Windows 8 and refuse to install it in their enterprise. Some do like Windows 8 and that is also a problem since now Microsoft has divided and confused their customer base on a massive scale. No competitor could have done the titanic damage that Microsoft has inflicted on itself.

From Windows Supersite.

"Windows 8 is not well-designed. It's a mess. But Windows 8 is a bigger problem than that. Windows 8 is a disaster in every sense of the word.

This is not open to debate, is not part of some cute imaginary world where everyone's opinion is equally valid or whatever. Windows 8 is a disaster. Period."

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/what-heck-happening-windows

From Infoworld

"More Microsoft exec departures mark end of a Windows era
With Jon DeVaan and Grant George officially retired and most of rest of Windows 8 team out to pasture, Microsoft silently acknowledges complete lack of faith in Windows 8."

http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/more-microsoft-exec-departures-mark-end-of-windows-era-233279
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: commodorejohn on June 04, 2014, 04:05:05 PM
The dropping of basically everyone responsible for Win8 does give me hope for Win9, but we'll have to see how that all plays out - is Microsoft really willing to own up to the fact that they willfully made a colossal mistake, and go back to the drawing board?
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: James2002 on June 04, 2014, 05:53:50 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;765691
The dropping of basically everyone responsible for Win8 does give me hope for Win9, but we'll have to see how that all plays out - is Microsoft really willing to own up to the fact that they willfully made a colossal mistake, and go back to the drawing board?

They always do a flip-flop before a better operation system.  In theory Windows 9 should be fine.  It be more stable than Windows 7 and Windows 8.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 04, 2014, 06:02:40 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765690
By giving customers the standard Windows Desktop in Surface RT it's implied that it's Windows compatible.

You said they promised it, not that you inferred it. They never implied it and were always clear that it wouldn't run x86/x64 apps and they wouldn't allow developers to port their apps to arm.
 
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;765690
From Windows Supersite.
 
"Windows 8 is not well-designed. It's a mess. But Windows 8 is a bigger problem than that. Windows 8 is a disaster in every sense of the word.
 
This is not open to debate, is not part of some cute imaginary world where everyone's opinion is equally valid or whatever. Windows 8 is a disaster. Period."

What isn't up for debate is how biased that piece is because it's written to generate clicks to raise advertising revenue.
 
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/what-heck-happening-windows (http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/what-heck-happening-windows)
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;765690
"More Microsoft exec departures mark end of a Windows era
With Jon DeVaan and Grant George officially retired and most of rest of Windows 8 team out to pasture, Microsoft silently acknowledges complete lack of faith in Windows 8."

By you quoting that web site you silently acknowledge that Windows 8 has been a huge success. See I can do it too.
 
People retire all the time, it doesn't say anything about their past work. It might say something about their ability to perform future work. It might be a case of them making scapegoats of the people involved.
 
Microsoft took a punt with Surface and it didn't pan out, which wasn't because you don't like the start menu & doesn't count as Windows 8 being a failure. Some people might have been moved on because of the loss on hardware, although Microsoft usually are cool with ideas not panning out, they aren't as money driven as someone like Apple.
 
Enterprises not running Windows 8 is not entirely new. When Vista was coming out I was hearing about Enterprises that were still running projects to roll out XP to their NT4 machines. But "enterprises are as annoyed as usual about new version of windows" is not as compelling a headline.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on June 04, 2014, 06:23:54 PM
Windows 8 is dodgy on purpose, so you will keep buying upgrades. :(
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Iggy on June 04, 2014, 08:30:32 PM
The "Every other major revision sucks" theory seems valid.

ME sucked.
XP was alright.
Vista sucked mightily.
7 was OK.
8 sucks as well, no surprise!
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on June 04, 2014, 08:33:48 PM
Quote from: psxphill;765686
When did Microsoft promise you could run desktop applications on Surface RT?



Possible ways of closing a metro app

Alt f4
click the close button in the top right
right click on the task bar icon and click close
open task manager and end task it

The close button and task bar icon might only be in the latest Windows 8.1 update, but Alt f4 even works in Windows 8. Alt-f4 has been used to close windows since the 80's.

The close button has only been added since 8.1, and even then it's only visible if you hover the mouse pointer over a part of the screen. Prior to that the only way I could figure out how to close that rubbish was by grabbing the "window" at the top center of the screen, and dragging it downward entirely off the bottom of the screen. Makes sense if you're using a tablet with your finger, rubbish for use with a mouse. But just wanted to add one more way to your list, lol. ;)

Edit - Ctrl+W might work, also?  It closes windows, haven't tried it in Metro yet.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 04, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;765698
Prior to that the only way I could figure out how to close that rubbish was by grabbing the "window" at the top center of the screen, and dragging it downward entirely off the bottom of the screen. Makes sense if you're using a tablet with your finger, rubbish for use with a mouse. But just wanted to add one more way to your list, lol. ;)

In windows 8 you can also close apps running in the background by moving the mouse up to the top left right and clicking close (I've not gotten round to installing 8.1 on this machine).
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 04, 2014, 11:09:10 PM
@psxphill

You sure spend a lot of time trying to get us to buy Windows 8.

:)

I said Windows 7 works fine for me so why do you care what version of Windows I or others in this thread use? Many people hate Windows 8 and won't upgrade to it, maybe Windows 9 will be okay, who knows? Windows Supersite is run by the host of Windows Weekly a big Windows fan. That's why his words ring so true. If you think Windows 8 is a resounding success you are either working for Microsoft or living in a dream world. It's a fact that Windows 8 was a huge failure and most of the team that created it have been fired. Those facts are not debatable they are easily verified. If Microsoft losing 900 million on the Windows 8 based Tablet is success to you I would hate to see what you think failure looks like. That almost 1 billion dollar loss was in one quarter of the year.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/18/4535976/microsoft-lost-900-million-on-surface-rt
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: persia on June 04, 2014, 11:23:57 PM
Another problem is that Windows Store apps suck on the desktop, so being able to run them on a desktop is meaningless.  Apple got it right, tablet and phone are different to desktops and laptops.

And touch screens on laptops and desktops will always be secondary to trackpads (or I suppose mice).  The price of the touch interface on the two or three 27 inch or larger monitors you have on your desktop would be better spent on a 4K screen instead.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 05, 2014, 12:23:24 AM
Touch on the desktop is a fool's errand anyway, because it is just plain uncomfortable to hold your arm up and interact with something in front of your face for extended periods of time.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: SysAdmin on June 05, 2014, 01:00:38 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;765708
Touch on the desktop is a fool's errand anyway, because it is just plain uncomfortable to hold your arm up and interact with something in front of your face for extended periods of time.


100% right, they call it Gorilla arm.

:)

http://www.techbroil.com/2012/10/the-gorilla-at-end-of-windows-8-tunnel.html

http://www.wired.com/2010/10/gorilla-arm-multitouch/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: SysAdmin on June 05, 2014, 01:05:45 AM
Quote from: persia;765704
Another problem is that Windows Store apps suck on the desktop, so being able to run them on a desktop is meaningless.  Apple got it right, tablet and phone are different to desktops and laptops.

And touch screens on laptops and desktops will always be secondary to trackpads (or I suppose mice).  The price of the touch interface on the two or three 27 inch or larger monitors you have on your desktop would be better spent on a 4K screen instead.

4K yum, this one looks good.

http://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34UM95-P-ultrawide-monitor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnrxNfxRK_4
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: SysAdmin on June 05, 2014, 02:16:28 AM
The scale of Windows 8.x’s failure is staggering!

http://betanews.com/2014/05/08/the-scale-of-windows-8-xs-failure-is-staggering/
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: psxphill on June 05, 2014, 08:37:09 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765716
The scale of Windows 8.x’s failure is staggering!
 
http://betanews.com/2014/05/08/the-scale-of-windows-8-xs-failure-is-staggering/

He seems to have a personal grudge, or he's figured out that his commission goes up ever time he bitches about 8.1.
 
The graph looks quite different if you add Windows 8 & 8.1 figures together, so you can tell he wasn't even trying to be objective about it.
 
He also talks a lot about Apple stuff.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 05, 2014, 08:46:04 AM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765703
You sure spend a lot of time trying to get us to buy Windows 8.

I have never encouraged anyone to buy Windows 8.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;765703
I said Windows 7 works fine for me so why do you care what version of Windows I or others in this thread use?

You sure spend a lot of time trying to get us to not buy Windows 8.
 
Including lying that Microsoft promised desktop Apps would work on Suface RT.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;765703
It's a fact that Windows 8 was a huge failure and most of the team that created it have been fired. Those facts are not debatable they are easily verified.

One minute you say people have retired and now you're saying they were fired. It's hard to verify facts when they change all the time.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;765703
If Microsoft losing 900 million on the Windows 8 based Tablet is success to you I would hate to see what you think failure looks like. That almost 1 billion dollar loss was in one quarter of the year.

The loss was on Surface and not Windows 8, it's the first thing you'd find out when trying to verify the facts. Microsoft made a loss on the original xbox for a long time as well.
 
Losing 1.2 billion dollars sounds like a lot, but they have 88 billion dollars in cash and had an income of 5.7 billion dollars for the last quarter. Which makes Surface the same type of failure that people go through every week playing the lottery.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: SysAdmin on June 05, 2014, 11:01:32 AM
Quote from: psxphill;765734
I have never encouraged anyone to buy Windows 8.
 
 
 
You sure spend a lot of time trying to get us to not buy Windows 8.
 
Including lying that Microsoft promised desktop Apps would work on Suface RT.
 
 
One minute you say people have retired and now you're saying they were fired. It's hard to verify facts when they change all the time.
 
 
The loss was on Surface and not Windows 8, it's the first thing you'd find out when trying to verify the facts. Microsoft made a loss on the original xbox for a long time as well.
 
Losing 1.2 billion dollars sounds like a lot, but they have 88 billion dollars in cash and had an income of 5.7 billion dollars for the last quarter. Which makes Surface the same type of failure that people go through every week playing the lottery.

 
Don't think I ever said Windows RT ran regular Windows Desktop Applications, I said customers are confused if it does or does not run them.

People can buy Windows 8 if they want to feel the pain, go for it.

:)
 
I'm against crappy products but even worse is a company trying to force it's customer base to upgrade to an OS version that's worse than the former version. And making sure the channel is full of Win8 machines but making it hard to get machines with Win7 installed. That's not very customer friendly.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: bloodline on June 05, 2014, 01:35:09 PM
Quote
Including lying that Microsoft promised desktop Apps would work on Suface RT.


The problem Microsoft made for themselves with WindowsRT is that that made no platform distinction between "RT" and "Pro". It's not anecdotal, I actually know people who went to PC World, had a tablet demonstrated to them, they were told "it runs windows, so you already know what to do"... They get it home and it doesn't run any of the software they already have despite the fact it is running windows... Oh and none of that cool software iPad owners are running works on it either.

The problem when selling a consumer device (which a Tablet is), is that the consumer doesn't care about the platform, if it looks like windows it should run the stuff they have for windows. Apple were very carefull to ensure people don't confuse their tablet and desktop platforms.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices aimed at corperate customers and crappy
Post by: psxphill on June 05, 2014, 02:30:53 PM
Quote from: bloodline;765739
I actually know people who went to PC World, had a tablet demonstrated to them, they were told "it runs windows, so you already know what to do"... They get it home and it doesn't run any of the software they already have despite the fact it is running windows...

PC World will also sell you an £85 HDMI cable because you will get a higher definition picture than a £5.99 cable. That doesn't mean it's the fault of the manufacturer.
 
I don't recall Microsoft ever making that claim about Windows RT. If someone in PC world lies to you then you should take it up with them.
 
They've agreed to swap HDMI cables (although it will be interesting to find out how that works out).
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/h9RmpnFKD38wsv6DX1Fx4b/hdmi-cables
 
FWIW the opposite argument that a cable either works perfectly or doesn't work at all is also incorrect but it's not as wrong as what PC worlds claims. Also if you want to run your 4k TV at 60hz then you need an HDMI 2.0 cable and that is likely to be more expensive. You need to know what you're buying or go to someone who does, or you're likely to get fleeced no matter what shop you go into.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: tone007 on June 05, 2014, 03:07:14 PM
I installed Windows 8 over a year ago on my Alienware laptop and eventually got used to it after being initially annoyed by the "split-personality" aspect of Metro/Desktop, but when my SSD started flaking out I figured I'd do a fresh install of 7 on the new SSD.  Honestly, I'm missing some of the features that 8 had, the Task Manager was much nicer and I'd gotten used to just going to the Metro screen and typing the first few letters of whatever application I was looking for. Hadn't gone to 8.1 because apparently driver support wasn't complete for the AlienFX keyboard on my model according to Dell, but maybe I'll give it a shot anyway. Both 7 and 8 fly on my 3 year old i7 with an SSD though, no complaints about performance here.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 05, 2014, 07:21:02 PM
Quote from: psxphill;765733
The graph looks quite different if you add Windows 8 & 8.1 figures together, so you can tell he wasn't even trying to be objective about it.
Yes, the graph certainly would look different if no sales of 8.1 were from someone upgrading from the horror that was vanilla 8.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: SysAdmin on June 05, 2014, 08:18:56 PM
@commodorejohn

The chart also does not take into consideration all the customers that immediately install Windows 7 on machines they buy with Win8 and 8.1. A substantial number of people do this but they are still counted as Win8.x owners in charts. Tons of enterprise customers do this as well. Get boatloads of Win8 PC's and reimage to Windows 7 before they are deployed in the company. I remember when I worked for BofA as an IT Consultant long ago. BofA bought thousands of HP machines that came with 2000/XP but the machines were reimaged with NextStep for x86 to run a custom proprietary banking applications. All the machines still had a valid XP License that was never used. I suggested they just buy the machines without 2000/XP to save money  but they said a contract with Microsoft and or HP prevented this.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: psxphill on June 05, 2014, 08:55:17 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;765761
Yes, the graph certainly would look different if no sales of 8.1 were from someone upgrading from the horror that was vanilla 8.

You lose the argument immediately by using emotive language purely to cover up your inaccuracies. People upgrading to 8.1 don't count as sales of 8.1, this is the whole reason they should be added together as buying 8 or 8.1 you're likely to end up running 8.1. I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or whether it's a happy coincidence that it helped his argument but it's subverting the facts.
 
Quote from: SysAdmin;765768
Tons of enterprise customers do this as well. Get boatloads of Win8 PC's and reimage to Windows 7 before they are deployed in the company.

I've never heard of an enterprise do that, they usually buy their computers without an os. Even when windows 7 was the latest and they would be running windows 7. MAK keys used to only be used for really big companies as they were effectively unbounded & the only security was that the person who had the key wouldn't give it to their mates. With Vista they switched to KMS and every company can use that now, so your 2000/XP anecdote is no longer relevant. Maybe a small company that doesn't know how to buy a machine with windows 7 or os-less will do as you say.
 
Quote from: tone007;765746
Hadn't gone to 8.1 because apparently driver support wasn't complete for the AlienFX keyboard on my model according to Dell, but maybe I'll give it a shot anyway.

I'd be surprised if the windows 8 driver didn't just work, even windows 7 drivers will usually work. There aren't many differences in the driver model. XP graphics drivers are no longer supported and they do work on windows 7, so on really old hardware you might not have noticed you were running an xp driver. If this affects you then you'll be stuck with the generic super vga driver, but your graphics hardware is probably not that powerful anyway.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 07, 2014, 11:09:22 AM
SysAdmin, if you are claiming that an enterprise situation would order a new fleet of PC's with Windows 8 installed and "roll back" to 7, you've never so much as stepped a toe into the trade.  I've seen you make a lot of silly statements, but this one takes the cake.  What company in their right mind is ordering machines single OEM style with an OS they do not want then rolling back to W7?  When you can buy the machines with *NO* OS, and deal with MS on volume license for pennies on the dollar on any version of Windows you wanted?  Why would they dick around?  They wouldn't, and they aren't, never have.  You or I can order a PC with 8 OR 7, or no OS at all if need be.  Enterprise don't buy hardware  with an OS installed when they can just group license the OS from MS for far cheaper.

Company I subcontract for just deployed new laptops to over 2,000 technicians.  Not one came with 8 installed.  In fact, not one came with *ANY* OS installed.  They came as bare hardware and the IT guys rolled out the whole shebang from a very large, very fast server that installed the OS and every little other specific thing from AD setup to ID card software without doing anything more than rolling an image file onto the bare drive. Takes a few minutes over gigabit ethernet to image a new system to a PC with an SSD, tops.  They all run Win 7, for the record - just like all enterprise systems, they are always (and wisely) one gen back.  The hardware vendor supplied no OS on the machines at all.

People in the industry REALLY DO NOT have an admin running around with a box of 2,000 W7 cd's to install on a system with w8 on it, because they aren't ordering an OS on the machines.  If you know someone in an enterprise situation that is ordering bulk computers with W8 then hauling ass around installing 7 on them, that man should be executed on principle alone and forced out of the IT industry.

There's no guy screaming bloody murder about the evils of W8 in the enterprise world, because quite frankly more enterprise customers are just rolling on to Win SEVEN and tons are still on XP.  In fact, the people that outright buy the latest OS in OEM form are very, very slim.  MS themselves will tell you that the vast majority of Win 8 users are general users that got the OS on a new machine they bought, vs. guys "upgrading" their existing W7 or XP PC's to 8.  Very few people storm out the door to buy the latest and greatest OS for their existing machines - even Apple know this, which is why the last 2 revs of OS X are entirely free.  Apple make more cash off the ecosystem than they ever would on $20 OS upgrades - their adoption rate of the latest and greatest would be on par with Win 8 if people had to pay for it, something the press always leaves out.  Win 8 is a $100+ OS, where as OS X upgrades are free - pretty glaring who's going to have the better numbers.  Windows 8 is not even on the radar for enterprise, most would still be running XP is MS didn't kill support for it.  Enterprise is always 1 if not 2 gens behind.  Hell, some of the companies I subcontract for still have Win 2000 and 2003 machines in production roles if they aren't too close to the shiny side of things..

On a final note?  How do you Apple apologists feel about Microsoft Bing being the standard for OS X Yosemite search?  Gotta sting, I bet - the Great Satan MS now being the go to guy by default for Apple search wise :)

I do love how every post of yours is absolutely linkbaited for maximum clickthroughs, though :)  Ever notice that, people?  Every mention of "windows" or ipad" or "iphone" gets a link?  :)  Don't begrudge a guy trying to pay the bills, but be subtle, eh?  Hope this post of mine shows someone a real nice crossbow scope to buy via those hacks at DealTime based from a Windows topiclink.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Niding on June 07, 2014, 12:22:51 PM
With regards to Windows;

Ive used Windows 2000, XP and Windows 7 +vista on my old laptop.

The last few months Ive been using Windows 8 on my main Stationary, and I find that is getting more frustrating to use over time.
Windows 7 I find easier to navigate, tho the search function of Win 8 is quite powerful and useful.
I share the misgivings of the people missing the Start button/menu.

I was sitting here today wondering if I should take a few hours off my day and reinstall Windows 7 on my computer, but decided Id rather just do a "how to make win 8 feel like 7" session instead.
Installed Classic Shell, which give you the start button, and already now I feel much more comfortable. You can also disable the Metro screen. Pure bliss.
So, for now Win 8 will remain on my main computer, but overall I dont really like it.
Hopefully the simple addition of Start Menu will fix that impression.

I have several friends that are quite heavy computer users (IT workers) and they enjoy Windows 8, so its a personal preferance.

For me it seems like the rule of every second incarnation of windows is Great and the following complete rubbish holds true. So I cant wait for Windows 9 :)
Tho, I suspect the rise of Steam OS and Linux in general will eventually push me in that direction.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/183445-windows-8-start-menu-resurrection-delayed-until-next-version-of-windows-in-2015
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 07, 2014, 03:42:00 PM
Don't tell the masses the truth, they hate that!  :)

Yes, you can turn Metro off entirely, people.  Easy peasy, a couple clicks.  I don't begrudge anyone disliking W8, but the witch hunt stuff is just hysterical.

YOU CAN OPT TO NEVER SEE "METRO" AT ALL AGAIN ONCE YOU DEFAULT TO DESKTOP MODE.  :)
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Niding on June 07, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Duce;765884
Don't tell the masses the truth, they hate that!  :)

Yes, you can turn Metro off entirely, people.  Easy peasy, a couple clicks.  I don't begrudge anyone disliking W8, but the witch hunt stuff is just hysterical.

YOU CAN OPT TO NEVER SEE "METRO" AT ALL AGAIN ONCE YOU DEFAULT TO DESKTOP MODE.  :)


Yep, and getting metro back on again is supereasy too incase you need it back for whatever reason.

Btw Duce, you cant ever post again since you have reached .:Posts: 1,337:. ^^ :-D
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: gertsy on June 07, 2014, 04:18:41 PM
Let's talk about the Surface 3 Pro's crappy i3.  What does crappy mean?   Well an I3 Intel processor in a HD device weighing 800gms.  That is pretty crappy when you think of it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: psxphill on June 07, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: Niding;765874
Installed Classic Shell, which give you the start button, and already now I feel much more comfortable.

Can you express that objectively?
 
I installed various start menu hacks in the beta versions and when doing RTM installs. I was reinstalling multiple times to get nice clean installs, rather than install a load of software figure out what works well and then uninstall the rest.
 
What I found was that I got lazy and eventually couldn't be bothered to install a start menu anymore and just got on with learning how to find stuff in Windows 8, because it was easier than installing an extra piece of software if I was just going to nuke it again.
 
My usage pattern probably doesn't match yours, which is why I'm interested in what you find more comfortable.
 
Classic Shell lost me with their customer testimonies and when I couldn't find a US registration for the trademark.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Niding on June 07, 2014, 05:10:12 PM
Since the buddy that gave me Win 8 for free praised it (and hes a IT worker that is exposed to it all day at work) I decided to give it a fair chance. I wanted to "get used to it" like he said I would etc.
I can see why he has gotten into the Win8 flow since hes exposed to it around the clock and as such will get hang of the shortcuts.

Maybe because Im a causual user Im "lazy" and not intrested in learning new GUI/processes.
It would probarly take even longer for me to get fully used to Win8, but as it is, I just found it increasingly annoying.

As for Classic Shell; since I just installed it a few hours ago I cant vouche for it yet, but my INITIAL impression is favorable.
When I wanted to start a program or game I dont want to search the metro screen for it. I dont want to type a few letters in the seach box. It feels cumbersome, for me atleast.
When I want to uninstall a program or start some secondary file of a program/game that is not the "main" exe file that windows/metro displays, I feel required to make a shortcut on desktop etc.
With the startbutton I just put up everything I need and its 1 click away=quick access.

Ive had discussions with my IT worker buddy and he explained why and how he enjoy Win8 over Win7, and I tried to emulate his user pattern somewhat. It just didnt "work" for me :)

So basically I want the Start button! I even enjoy it on AmiKit/Classic Workbench. Some call it a bastard import to Amiga, but I PERSONALLY find it userfriendly. You could stick to the Amiga pulldown menu programs that was popular back in the early 90s, but what works for some, doesnt for others.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 07, 2014, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: Duce;765884
Don't tell the masses the truth, they hate that!  :)

Yes, you can turn Metro off entirely, people.  Easy peasy, a couple clicks.  I don't begrudge anyone disliking W8, but the witch hunt stuff is just hysterical.

YOU CAN OPT TO NEVER SEE "METRO" AT ALL AGAIN ONCE YOU DEFAULT TO DESKTOP MODE.  :)
That's bullshìt and you know it. You can turn off booting into Metro. That's all. You can't stop Metro from popping up when you hit the Windows key or get the Start menu back without a third-party hack - and even with a third-party hack, W8 only just approaches being as usable as 7. It's still got loads of issues - for instance, the fact that minimizing windows no longer sends them to the back of the Alt-Tab queue, so you can decide you're done with something for the moment and put it away only to then immediately switch back into it when you meant to go to something else. You end up having to bubble-sort your windows just to get them into the order that XP would've had them in all along.

Win8 is feces and everyone knows it except the True Faithful. You've lost, guys. Time to admit it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 08, 2014, 12:53:11 AM
Believe what you like, John.  I'm telling you I use W8 daily and I don't hit Metro at all, and it didn't take rocket science to set that up.  I use Windows 8 in entirely "desktop" mode.

I'm not here to convert anyone.  In fact, I'd be the LAST guy on earth to recommend that anyone go out and upgrade from 7 to 8 on their own dime, especially if that person has zero need to anything "Metro" style.  What I am saying is 8.1 can be a perfectly usable desktop OS that's actually faster and as stable as Windows 7, that's all, and you don't need to see the Metro stuff if you don't want to.  or you can, or you can mix and match Metro and the Desktop.  Up to you.

However, if you buy a new PC with 8 installed, you can indeed run it in a desktop UI form and never see the tablet style UI.  You can, John, lol.  I do it every single day, as do many, many others.  This is not pulling rabbits out of hats, it's a simple config option in 8.1 u1.

http://images2.tinkertry.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Windows-8.1-running-Windows-8.1-VM-with-8TB-disk.png

Looks pretty much to be a standard Windows style desktop to me in that particular screenie, doesn't it?  There's no magic or smoke and mirrors needed to get an experience like that in the least.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: gertsy on June 08, 2014, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;765890
That's bullshìt and you know it. You can turn off booting into Metro. That's all. You can't stop Metro from popping up when you hit the Windows key or get the Start menu back without a third-party hack - and even with a third-party hack, W8 only just approaches being as usable as 7. It's still got loads of issues - for instance, the fact that minimizing windows no longer sends them to the back of the Alt-Tab queue, so you can decide you're done with something for the moment and put it away only to then immediately switch back into it when you meant to go to something else. You end up having to bubble-sort your windows just to get them into the order that XP would've had them in all along.

Win8 is feces and everyone knows it except the True Faithful. You've lost, guys. Time to admit it.


While where talking about bullsh1t I can I let you in on a little real world conspiracy; You don't need to turn the start menu off. These hacks were for 8.0 and are 18 months old. 8.1 Will always start off where you left off.  If you're a desktop user and use it as a desktop user then it will go in the desktop. If you're a start menu user.. yes you guessed it.
It's simply based on how you shut down or hibernate.

At work I have colleagues that use 8.1 every day and use it as 8.1 not 7. This is obviously a subjective comment; but I envy the speed at which they work and its clear they have taken to the new OS more fully than myself.

In my view it comes down to two simple questions.
1. Are you a person that does the same things the same way all the time.
2. Are you a person that wants to learn new ways of doing things for the better.

The last question is predicated on the ideal that there may be a better way of doing things. When you approach it with a closed mind of course there's no way it could ever be true.

Many great ideas fail because of marketing or anti-marketing.  Unfortunately in the IT world you have to hype to get a look in.

The Surface was always put forward as a Tablet that can replace a Laptop.  The Anti hype turn that into "its not a tablet and it's not a laptop".  It took 10 years for the tablet to gain a foothold in our progressive technology loving world. My view is simply, that is because it was always aimed at people who were not willing to change and not willing to learn.  Aim it at young or non-industry people market it as a differentiator of their individuality and discerning taste and whammo; how quickly they line up.  Reminds me of a line out of Monty python: "Yes we are all individuals" chants the crowd.

As a diversion back onto the topic.  Here's an independent review of the Surface 3.  Have a look at the benchmarks.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3-review/

cheers
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 08, 2014, 01:25:11 AM
Quote from: Duce;765911
Believe what you like, John.  I'm telling you I use W8 daily and I don't hit Metro at all, and it didn't take rocket science to set that up.  I use Windows 8 in entirely "desktop" mode.

However, if you buy a new PC with 8 installed, you can indeed run it in a desktop UI form and never see the tablet style UI.  You can, John, lol.  I do it every single day, as do many, many others.  This is not pulling rabbits out of hats, it's a simple config option in 8.1 u1.
Smarmily condescend all you want, but the fact is that it will throw you right back to the Start screen any time you try to pull up a menu of your applications unless you employ a third-party hack. If you use vanilla 8.1 and you don't ever see the Start screen, then, well, whatever. Guess an obsessive dependence on taskbar pinning got you something. But for those of us who actually want to be able to pull up a menu of the applications installed on the computer without having to wade through a tablet-oriented wasteland of giant tiles, that's not an option.

Quote from: gertsy;765913
In my view it comes down to two simple questions.
1. Are you a person that does the same things the same way all the time.
2. Are you a person that wants to learn new ways of doing things for the better.

The last question is predicated on the ideal that there may be a better  way of doing things. When you approach it with a closed mind of course  there's no way it could ever be true.
Or, alternately, you could approach it rationally and simple come to the conclusion that it's terrible because it is, in fact, terrible. But no, that can't be it, obviously it must be that everyone who looked at Windows 8 and said "that's stupid!" is just a Backwards Neanderthal Who Hates Change! How can we help but sneer at them for being so backward as to not unequivocally approve of any new design simply for being new without regard for whether it's actually any good or not?!
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: gertsy on June 08, 2014, 01:43:39 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;765915

....
Or, alternately, you could approach it rationally and simple come to the conclusion that it's terrible ....


I thought I was being rational John. Have a read of the review.  Engaget can be pretty superficial but at least they announce opinion and subjectivity and don't glaze it as fact.

I tend to agree with part of your comment.  It's people that "looked at it" that don't like it. Not the one's using it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 08, 2014, 02:02:45 AM
Not sure what you're missing, John.  I'm telling you, as tons of others will - they use Windows 8.1 u1 without ever getting "thrown" back into the Metro UI at all.

I use 8.1 for hours per day and _never_ see Metro in the least unless I actually want to, which I do not.  It did not take a dozen add on programs or anything add on wise to achieve this.  

There are 1000 "how to" guides on how to do exactly this, John.  It requires no IT certs to do so - the only remotely technical thing I've ever had to do is disable Charms with a regedit tweak, no different than how I used to turn off the annoying Balloon Tips on XP.  Other than that, the only thing I had to do to ease my usage case was make a desktop icon for shutdown/reboot, but that was purely preferential.

5 minutes of tweaking for a vastly superior File Explorer, twice as fast boot times, and just as stable?  Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 08, 2014, 02:50:48 AM
Quote from: gertsy;765916
I tend to agree with part of your comment.  It's people that "looked at it" that don't like it. Not the one's using it.
Speaking as someone who's had to put up with using it on his work computer for months, you're full of it.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 08, 2014, 03:33:06 AM
He was referring to the Surface 3, John.  Which is actually getting quite positive hands on reviews.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: persia on June 08, 2014, 04:41:30 AM
Windows 8.1 looks a lot like Windows 7, especially if you don't use any Windows Store Apps.  Yeah the "Start" ball (actually a Windows logo ball) takes you to the tiles, but really that's the only difference.  Well that and the search area for apps is to the side rather than an the bottom of the menu.

Windows Store apps appear on the task bar even.  And you can create shortcuts on the desktop to them.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: bbond007 on June 08, 2014, 05:42:54 AM
Quote from: Duce;765924
He was referring to the Surface 3, John.  Which is actually getting quite positive hands on reviews.


I just got a dell venue 8 with windows 8.1 and I really like it. I have never seen surface 3 but its probably a very usable device based on my experience with this cheapo device.

I do like it better than my previous tablet - a Samsung galaxy tab.

I think people just look for any reason to hate m$ft.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 08, 2014, 06:41:10 AM
Quote from: bbond007;765928
I think people just look for any reason to hate m$ft.
Because it couldn't be that we actually have honest negative opinions about something, no sir...
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Niding on June 08, 2014, 09:27:28 AM
I can see Win 8/Metro being quite usable on a Tablet. I got a Ipad and those slidable icons like Metro got is userfriendly from that point of view.

From my POV the Metro menu doesnt translate as well to non-touchscreen desktop enviroment.

It doesnt make Windows 8 a bad OS, it just means a tool might be perfect at some tasks, while "useless" at others.
I dont really see the big deal with that.

Now Ive used the Classic Shell for a whole 24 hours, and I really enjoy it. By the looks of it, Win 8 will stay on my machine. (Classic Shell substituted the Metro button with Start menu button)

EDIT; So, tried the App Store, and now Windows insist I use the hotmail password to logon to my computer, not the custom admin password I made when Windows 8 was installed. Odd and annoying.
Maybe I should have KNOWN this would happen, but I cant really say I asked or was told by the OS that this would happen. Im sure there isnt anything "bad" that happens cause of this, but I personally dont like
programs/OSs taking "artistical freedoms" in giving you features you didnt explicitly asked for.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: persia on June 08, 2014, 04:17:00 PM
If you run Windows Store Apps you will need to run the modern interface.  Windows Store Apps do not run in the Desktop.  You can see them in the task bar and pin a shortcut to them but they actually run in the modern interface.  It's still two headed, though not as confusingly so.

The Windows Store has you sign up for an account, in the same way Apple's App Store does.  That's why you sign in with it, it wouldn't make any sense to sign into the store with an account that is local to your computer.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: gertsy on June 08, 2014, 04:21:02 PM
Quote from: Niding;765934
....

EDIT; So, tried the App Store, and now Windows insist I use the hotmail password to logon to my computer, not the custom admin password I made when Windows 8 was installed. Odd and annoying.
Maybe I should have KNOWN this would happen, but I cant really say I asked or was told by the OS that this would happen. Im sure there isnt anything "bad" that happens cause of this, but I personally dont like
programs/OSs taking "artistical freedoms" in giving you features you didnt explicitly asked for.


I was dubious about the same thing the first time I installed 8.  But once I took the plunge there are a lot of benefits in having a live account.  1. All your settings follow you. 2. You get extra security features for your device.  3. Your apps are licensed on all your devices (if you have more than one) The are no proprietary microcosms that don't require you to supply a valid email address. So go nuts and download Flappy Bird and all the other crap in there.  Bamboo Page, Fresh Paint and Hill Climb Racing is fun.

@Persia, yes, the runtime environment.  AKA RT to make it even more confusing.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: SysAdmin on June 08, 2014, 04:41:45 PM
For me I see no advantages to Win8 for me personally so I'm not upgrading. I already owned a tablet long ago and have over a million Apps to choose from so Windows Store has no appeal to me. I don't want to have a Hotmail account because MS has proven time and time again they can and will pry into your personal information and or leak your personal information do to incompetence. I'll take a pass for now and see what Windows Threshold brings.

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/threshold-be-called-windows-9-ship-april-2015
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Niding on June 08, 2014, 05:53:09 PM
Quote from: persia;765950
If you run Windows Store Apps you will need to run the modern interface.  Windows Store Apps do not run in the Desktop.  You can see them in the task bar and pin a shortcut to them but they actually run in the modern interface.  It's still two headed, though not as confusingly so.

The Windows Store has you sign up for an account, in the same way Apple's App Store does.  That's why you sign in with it, it wouldn't make any sense to sign into the store with an account that is local to your computer.


Yes, my iphone/pad require me to give the app store password to buy/download apps, but to actually access the device (phone/pad) in the first place you have to enter the custom password you have detailed. Basically its several password layers. With win8 you enter one password and everything opens up.

Im sure you can customize it, but thats how it pans out initially. I just spent 30 minutes looking around for how to edit it, and disabled one drive and logged out of the store.
Im generally quite biased against Clouds. I prefere local storage if I got the choice.

So far Windows 8 seems to be a gamers paradise, since they require the latest grapichs libraries/drivers for the fanciest performance. I do play games at times, but lately for the most part not. Only got the old Homeworld series left on my drives, and they dont require updated OS. With the deletion of pretty much all games im left with only productivity/office software, which actually makes me consider to revert to Win 7. Again; cause i really dislike the increasingly seamless introduction of cloudbased storage which makes me question my data security level; both personal and general.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: CritAnime on June 08, 2014, 07:02:21 PM
And people bitched about the Linux thread :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: psxphill on June 08, 2014, 10:40:53 PM
Quote from: SysAdmin;765953
I don't want to have a Hotmail account because MS has proven time and time again they can and will pry into your personal information and or leak your personal information do to incompetence.

I don't want to have one either, so I don't have one.
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;765890
It's still got loads of issues - for instance, the fact that minimizing windows no longer sends them to the back of the Alt-Tab queue, so you can decide you're done with something for the moment and put it away only to then immediately switch back into it when you meant to go to something else. You end up having to bubble-sort your windows just to get them into the order that XP would've had them in all along.

I have never noticed that has changed, did you or did you read that online? When I'm done with software I just close it, because it makes me more productive as I'm not having to think about what order my alt-tab queue is in.
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;765890
Win8 is feces and everyone knows it except the True Faithful. You've lost, guys. Time to admit it.

I use software I like and don't use software I don't like. I don't care what popular opinion is, especially when what "everyone" knows is second or third hand.
The slight changes in UI that I noticed took me a few days to get used to a couple of years ago, because I wasn't held back by hate.
 
If you think being objective is some form of cult then you need help.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 08, 2014, 11:04:12 PM
Quote from: psxphill;765974
I have never noticed that has changed, did you or did you read that online?
Direct personal experience on account of, as I've repeatedly said, having to put up with this crap on my work computer. But hey, you just keep insisting that I haven't tried it.

Quote
When I'm done with software I just close it, because it makes me more productive as I'm not having to think about what order my alt-tab queue is in.
Well whoop-de-friggin'-doo for you. I'll definitely get right on adjusting my entire workflow to fit what you think is best.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: psxphill on June 09, 2014, 12:14:12 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;765979
Direct personal experience on account of, as I've repeatedly said, having to put up with this crap on my work computer. But hey, you just keep insisting that I haven't tried it.

When did I insist?
 
Quote from: commodorejohn;765979

Well whoop-de-friggin'-doo for you. I'll definitely get right on adjusting my entire workflow to fit what you think is best.

I don't care if you change it. I don't care if you use Windows 98. You're a baked cake, you don't want to learn anything. All I can hope is that you don't teach others bad habits.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Iggy on June 09, 2014, 01:23:07 AM
There has to be a middle ground here.
I use WinXP and Win7, and I REALLY don't like Win8.
I'm not weird enough to want to keep using DOS based Windows (and thank God I no longer have to).
But if I want a touch/tablet OS, it HAS to be better than what Microsoft is offering.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: commodorejohn on June 09, 2014, 03:27:42 AM
Quote from: psxphill;765984
I don't care if you change it. I don't care if you use Windows 98. You're a baked cake, you don't want to learn anything. All I can hope is that you don't teach others bad habits.
I like how thinking that this particular design is terrible garbage equals "not wanting to learn anything."
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on June 09, 2014, 03:33:17 AM
It doesn't having anything to draw you to it. e.g. Windows 3.11 not much over Amiga. Windows 95, was more interesting.

I can't believe how much stuff doesn't work nowadays. Sometimes it's just adobe player crashing. Otherwise it will be searching through several driver revisions, because backwards compatibility is removed.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: 3583Bytes on June 09, 2014, 04:17:51 AM
I have both the Surface RT 1 and 2. I got them as a Promo for attending a conference and for porting apps to Windows 8.

Here are my experiences:

Windows 8 on a Tablet with a touch screen is actually not bad. It begins to make sense as you figure out all the gestures. I had to google like 3 things, but once you get their design language its quite nice.

Unlike an iPad (which is also nice) Surface Tablets have a MicroSD expansion, USB ports and HDMI out. This means that its very good at many things an iPad can't do. Like storing your kids videos, connecting to a LCD TV and watching them etc, hooking up a mouse, keyboard, printers etc.

The actual tablet is of high quality in terms of hardware. The software is good too as it has no bloatware. Camera is great for Skype.

Windows 8 marketplace is getting there. All the apps I like are there even Team Viewer which is great for connecting to remote computers. There is a lack of games, but they are also getting there. Outlook is now included which is great for people that work in a corporate environmnet.

So mostly because we got our Surface tablets for free my family uses them quite a bit. My wife travels with Surface 1 all the time and she likes it. She will use it over her laptop when she can't because it turns on instantly.

I use my Surface 2 for quick browsing around the house (visiting Amiga.org) and checking email. I also take it to our lake house and hook it up to our TV to watch movies as we have no cable there.

So all its easy to bash Microsoft because they are evil blah blah blah. But this time I don't think they did a bad job.

Using Windows 8 on a PC without touchscreen, different ballgame. Not as easy for sure. Bringing back the Start button with both the Metro and non Metro apps in one place will help I think. However the initial version was not good. It does boot much faster and seems to be more stable, so its still not a terrible upgrade one you learn it but no great by any stretch.

PS, I am typing this on my MacBook Air sitting beside an Amiga 500 and Mac SE FDHD. I am just saying not a Microsoft lover, but I like to give credit where its due.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Pyromania on June 09, 2014, 09:12:03 PM
@3583Bytes

Quite easy to add HDMI out & SD card ports to and iPad. SD card is for importing pictures/videos. iPad comes with iMovie for free so shooting/editing videos is a piece of cake. All Bluetooth keyboards work on iPad. I have never tried a Bluetooth mouse on an iPad but tons of different pressure sensitive styluses are available cheap.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 10, 2014, 01:25:14 AM
The idea that the expansions available on iPad is even remotely comparable to a full fledged Windows portable machine like the surface is insane.  I've tried them all on Apple devices, from things like the HyperDrive to the Mophie devices for the iPhone.  All are a kludge and are inelegant at best.  

It's comparing apples and oranges.  While the iPad has some expansion capabilities, it's still a gimped experience consisting of using gaudy dongles.  It's primarily a consumption device and was never intended to even step foot in the same market as the Surface.  Comparing iMovie, iPhoto or GarageBand on iPad to Photoshop, Premier, Vegas, or Ableton, Audition or the like, it's not even a comparison.  Even the free Windows apps blow the "i programs" on the iPad out of the water, even something like Audacity vs. GarageBand for iPad.

Surface has HDMI, SD built in, among other things.  Surface can run the full versions of any Windows software, be it Photoshop, CAD programs, anything - all with 100% built in support for the very good pressure sensitive stylus that's built in.  The two devices can't even be sanely compared usage case wise, and I say that as someone who's owned pretty much every version of the iPad thus far and I use my Mini daily.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: bbond007 on June 10, 2014, 01:44:25 AM
Quote from: Duce;766052
The idea that the expansions available on iPad is even remotely comparable to a full fledged Windows portable machine like the surface is insane.  I've tried them all on Apple devices, from things like the HyperDrive to the Mophie devices for the iPhone.  All are a kludge and are inelegant at best.

I totally agree. I can't even see the point of iOS anything until they add proper file support.

One thing also to keep in mind is that Windows 8.1 actually lets you use the SD card as a drive for any purpose. Install programs, etc...

Android likes to limit your applications to the primary storage and you need hacks to relocate them the SD. That is my experience anyway.

I put Photoshop 7.0 on my dell venue 8 pro. not real usable without a mouse but it sure does fly....
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Duce on June 10, 2014, 02:00:28 AM
Had the same issues with Android and SD cards, unfortunately.  If/when they ever get it working like it should - seamless storage between the onboard and card, I'll likely switch to Android entirely.

Well, it does work, but it's highly dependent on the app as well.  Winamp for example, works just fine with SD cards.  Fire it up and your media is there right away, ready to play.

VLC though, it sits there churning every single time I fire it up on my Android devices rescanning the SD card for media, and that takes far too long with a 64 GB card stacked full of media.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: bbond007 on June 10, 2014, 03:46:58 AM
Quote from: Duce;766055
Had the same issues with Android and SD cards, unfortunately.  If/when they ever get it working like it should - seamless storage between the onboard and card, I'll likely switch to Android entirely.

Well, it does work, but it's highly dependent on the app as well.  Winamp for example, works just fine with SD cards.  Fire it up and your media is there right away, ready to play.

VLC though, it sits there churning every single time I fire it up on my Android devices rescanning the SD card for media, and that takes far too long with a 64 GB card stacked full of media.


I was browsing some venue forums and I see someone had found a BIOS setting that increased the speed of my ssd as well as sd over 30%. I have no issue playing one 1080p video of the sd card while coping another video from a network share to the same sd-micro. Im sure surface 3 is just as capable.

I have two generations of galaxy tabs which are stuck on android 2.x and 3.x respectively without upgrades. Maybe that is my fault for buying samsung. I think that will be less of an issue with x86 windows.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: gertsy on June 21, 2014, 02:32:33 AM
Shhhh.....

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/ipad-air-problems/#!1u6Iw
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: gertsy on March 31, 2015, 10:54:45 PM
Surface 3 (not Pro) on pre-order now.  Runs full 8.1 on an Intel atom quad 2.6ghz(burst).
So the smaller version of the surface still exists just no longer in the RT form.

By the way @pyromania  iOS has no support for a mouse. And nor should it. It's a touch device.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: Matt_H on March 31, 2015, 11:42:18 PM
Glad to see Windows RT has been shown the door. New machine looks decent, but is too expensive for what it's offering. If they included the keyboard and pen at the $600 price point I could be persuaded.
Title: Re: Surface 3 - New direction, higher prices and crappy i3
Post by: danbeaver on April 01, 2015, 12:11:12 AM
I read $499, but still pricey for a 10" tablet, although USB 3.0 is not common for tablets this size.  Battery life is good as is screen resolution.