More Chipram

[motorollin]

recidivist wrote:
The only way I can conceive for the classic Amigas would be through the use of an accel/graphics/memory card add-on and a wedge program that would intercept all relevant calls and process them on-card.Isn't this what a Mediator type system does?

Oh FFS. I don't understand why this is so difficult. Let put it in electronic terms. The Amiga's Chip RAM bus is 16 bit because of the number of data lines running between the chips. In its most basic terms, there are a fixed number of wires running between the legs of the chips.

In order to address more than 2MB of RAM, the memory bus would have to be 32 bit. Changing the chips for 32 bit versions is not enough. You also have to increase the number of "wires" running between the chips to allow 32 bit communication between them.

Wedging some hardware between the accelerator can't increase the number of lines running between the chips on the motherboard. Neither can changing the chips themselves. Software won't help, because it's not a limitation of the OS - it's a physical limitation of the board.

recidivist wrote:
There is so much difference  between possible and practical!
Hobbyists can do try/all sorts of things on their own time and money that would never be approved in a profit-making corporation

That's true. But hobbyists can only achieve what is possible within the confines of physics - IOW they can't magically make 16bit motherboards 32bit :roll:

--
moto

[leirbag28]

@d0pefish

Quote:
And who needs ChipRAM anyway? It's slow as hell compared to Fast. Ever see a piece of Amiga software that needs more than 2MB Chip?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Have I ever seen any software that needs more that 2mb Chip?

hmmm.............lets see:

1. Viewtek (when viewing larger pictures)
2. Brillance (if you want to paint larger pictures)
3. Capital punishment (would be nice if I didnt have to close all windows and put less colors on workbench just to boot the thing)
4. Zool 2 AGA  (same as Capital punishment)
5. Super Street Fighter 2 TURBO (Same as Capital Punishment)
SCALA MM300 (try doing certain wipes with HAM8 pics.Youc ant!.......this app alone is worth the extra ChipRAM)
6. The one and only  VIDEO TOASTER!  (this definitely can do with more chipRAM)
7. Simply to open MULTIPLE SCREENS at once to do heavy duty Jobs as needed by todays standards just to slightly keep up or compete.
8. WORKBENCH needs more CHipRAM if you want to use it with 256 Colors and PNG icons to make it look its best and still fuction! ....... who wouldnt love this?


 I dont care if ChipRAM is slow....it is great just to have it...........if the MegaCHIP can be invented to give A500 2mb Chip............then so can the ULTRA MegaCHIP with 8mb ChipRAM be invented.


 It can be Done..........Do my Words defy logic?  to some probably...........but many will tell you here that God doesnt exist..........to them it defies Logic and science and cant it cant be proved to them.   But seeing and experiencing is believing.  it is obvious we don't have knowledge of what we haven't seen.... so hence we think it's not possible.   No scientist can do tests on a Spiritual realm.............so their explanation is: It Doesn't Exist.

Since I know for sure that it does..........it simply tells me man cannot be trusted in his limited capacity.

Simply put...........I have heard Nay Sayers before....and many have been proven wrong...I don't care what people know about the Amiga...............what I care about is what they DON'T know..............all angles have not been examined.

I believe this can be achieved on an AGA machine, even if AAA has to be imitated in software or hardware.....bottom line is I believe the CD32 I own and the A600 I own can be made to have more ChipRAM one way or another without replacing the entire motherboard.

Heck...........I even believe you can use USB and make it work to the full on aplain A600 @ 7mhz, despite the fact they say you need at least 68030.  Baloney!

Think of it this way .....(this is what I mean about thinking outside the box).....  some will tell you that you need a 68040 at least to play MP3's at a decent speed.  But here is what I say to them:

Explain to me how is it I am playing 18bit Mp3's on my plain A600 @ 7mhz?   its called the MASPlayer!.... yes I know your thinking....."ah but thats external hardware blah blah blah"  Yes.......but its done aint it?

Same can be done with USB...........an external processor that plugs into the Amigas Parrallel and serial and processes the speed it needs etc.....sort of like a USB decoder the way one would have a hardware DVD decoder.

and the same can be done with ChipRAM.......and external Card, if need be.... like the Graffitti Gfx Box..........that plugs into the RGB port and gives more color and more ChipRAM.

Thats How !!    

its thinking: OUTSIDE THE BOX!.....

In this case....Literally !  ....outside the Amiga case :-)........ in some cases. :-P


 So as I said...I believe It can be Done!

[LoadWB]

@leirbag28

What everyone has said at this point is that the limitation is in the hardware.

14-bit audio is a trick with our hearing, similar to speech synthesis on the C64's SID.  To anologize, it appears that a project of this sort would be akin to forcing more than 16 colors out of the C64's VIC-II -- it just ain't gonna happen since the VIC only processes one nybble (four bits) of color data, period.

The MegAChip was nothing more than the fulfillment of the expected expansion of ChipRAM using compatible and available custom chip, Agnus.  The systems already had the provisions for 2MB.  Whereas the 1200 and 3000 do not have provisions for 8MB addressing and while the 4000 has the data lines for it, it appears that the chipset as a whole neither supports nor recognizes the extra lines required.

Software emulation of ChipRAM is not possible.  The custom chips cannot access FastRAM directly due to hardware architecture.  Software cannot overcome this limitation.  Virtual ChipRAM would not work as there is no way for the custom chips to throw an exception on memory accesses out-of-boundaries.  Even if it could, imagine how the system would come to a crawl if you had objects on the screen from different pages -- the CPU would now be tied up moving memory in to and out of ChipRAM via the custom chip interfaces.

In IBM/PC perspectives, you cannot increase the memory on some video cards because the video chip (Cirrus Logic, Trident, etc.) does not know how to address the extra space.  This is the same reason why on some motherboards a 32MB SIMM shows up as 8MB.

Comparing UAE's multi-MB ChipRAM feature to the Amiga hardware is comparing trees to acorns.  UAE is a software implementation of classic hardware -- in short, it *is* redesigned hardware.  The OS doesn't care about or understand hardware limitations, so it is happy to accept whatever information the software-emulated hardware tells it.

So, the bottom line is more ChipRAM requires a completely new hardware architecture.

[motorollin]

Have you even read the rest of this thread? Or any of the other ones on this topic? There are some in-depth technical explanations of why implementing more than 2MB chip RAM would involve replacing the motherboard.

Software CANNOT add data lines between chips on a motherboard.
Hardware on the parallel port or accelerator port CANNOT add data lines between chips on a motherboard.
The only way to add data lines to chips on the motherboard is to PHYSICALLY SOLDER THEM ON TO THE BOARD.

End of story.

Someone, please close this thread before I throw my laptop at the wall in frustration.

--
moto

[bloodmoney]

Bruce Dickinson: Guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more Chip Ram!

 :lol:

[Flashlab]

Comparing ChipRAM to God or the supernatural seems to me (a bit) absurd. But maybe that's Dutch realism speaking...

There's a perfectly technical/scientific explanation why it can't be done on current classic hardware and why it does work on WinUAE.

So if you really really REALLY need the extra ChipRAM you got two options:

1. use WinUAE
2. make the ChipRAM expansion hardware you seem to insist is possible to make

[xeron]

it...........if the MegaCHIP can be invented to give A500 2mb Chip............then so can the ULTRA MegaCHIP with 8mb ChipRAM be invented.

This is called flawed logic. Look it up.

Do my Words defy logic?

Yes.

But seeing and experiencing is believing.

So you, personally, have actually seen God? Actually seen the actual deity of the christian* religion? (*insert alternative here if you are of a different faith).

seen.... so hence we think it's not possible.   No scientist can do tests on a Spiritual realm.............so their explanation is: It Doesn't Exist.

The hardware limitations of the classic Amiga has NOTHING to do with spiritualism or religion. It is an electronic board who's basis and foundations are entirely built upon logic. It is possible to map more memory into the chip ram window; but to use it every single piece of software would have to be patched and modified to make use of it. Every. Single. One. Is it worth the effort? To run a few apps and capital punishment at the same time? Errr.... NO. Especially when it would take a lot less years and money to just make a MiniMig based board with 8Mb on board.

I believe this can be achieved on an AGA machine,

Fine. Proove us wrong. Learn electronics, design the upgrade and make one. I bet you can't.

even if AAA has to be imitated in software or hardware.....

This sentence is complete nonsense. Complete. Nonsense. Do you understand? Emulating a more powerful computer on a less powerful computer doesn't work. Do you think E-UAE running on an A500 would let you run AGA games at full speed? No. Even if you managed to get it to run somehow, you'd be talking hours per frame, not frames per second.

bottom line is I believe the CD32 I own and the A600 I own can be made to have more ChipRAM one way or another without replacing the entire motherboard.

Sure. You can keep the connectors, some of the resistors, maybe even some glue logic. But you'd have to replace most of it. It would essentially be a whole other motherboard bolted onto the original one.

I even believe you can use USB and make it work to the full on aplain A600 @ 7mhz, despite the fact they say you need at least 68030.  Baloney!

USB doesn't go "to the full" on a 68030. The only USB 2.0 card for the Amiga is the Spider. You simply will not reach USB2.0 speeds on an 030. There is nothing stopping USB from working on a 7Mhz 68000 other than the lack of a 68000 USB stack. Write one and it'll work, but it won't be as fast as a USB card on a faster amiga.

Explain to me how is it I am playing 18bit Mp3's on my plain A600 @ 7mhz?   its called the MASPlayer!.... yes I know your thinking....."ah but thats external hardware blah blah blah"  Yes.......but its done aint it?

Fine. Thats a whole seperate independant audio chip outside of the Amiga. You want more "graphics memory"? Put a graphics card in your Amiga. Thats a completely seperate independant graphics chip with seperate video memory. You'll be able to run more graphic oriented apps at the same time. YOU WILL NOT HAVE A SINGLE BYTE MORE CHIP RAM, THOUGH.

and the same can be done with ChipRAM

No, it absolutely, positively, CANNOT be done that way. It is physically impossible to add chip ram to an amiga using any of the signals on the external connectors. You'd have to botch a whole new chipset onto the PCB itself.

and external Card, if need be.... like the Graffitti Gfx Box..........that plugs into the RGB port and gives more color and more ChipRAM.

Do you want to know how much Chip RAM the graffiti adds to the Amiga it is attached to? I'll give you a clue. Its an integer between -0.01 and 0.01 bytes.

[KThunder]

@leirbag
go ahead and do it. and while you are redesigning the chips put in chunky displays and true color and stuff like that. and redesign paula to have 16bit sound.
but you'll have to redesign the mobo too or have patch wires for addressing, that would be a mess.

[Karlos]

Dillusional in 4 words:

Eight Megs Chip Ram

[Karlos]

@bloodmoney

You took the image right out of my mind ;-)

"And Leirbag, explore the address space. Explore the address space!"

Leirbag waveing megachip...
"I would be doing myself and this platform a disservice if I didn't expand the hell outta this"

[recidivist]

 Whoaaaa,nelly!

  I DO understand  the difference in 16 and 32 bit ,at least in general,and was under the impression that with the AGA 1200 and 4000 the whole machine was 32 bit not just the processor.

  Further,I wondered if the call to from  the 2mb of chipram could not "simply" be diverted  to a new piece of hardware,and the on board chipram ignored.

  I see now that something like the A1000 Phoenix motherboard replacement ,only more ambitious, is necesary.(and hi
ghly unlikely.)

   Now IF I understand correctly,even the old Amiga OS could use more chipram EXCEPT for hardware limits,then someone with enough time,money,and knowledge could make a hardware Amiga Forever.

 Relating to my earlier post,it seems we can enjoy a stock Model T(Amiga) or turn it into a hot rod from mildly souped up to being completely new under the hood.Kind of like the people who write new Sherlock Holmes stories;they will be imitations of the true thing.But  it appears that most still using the Amugas have already added many things not envisioned in Commodore's plans.

[leirbag28]

@LoadWB

I know its a limitation in the hardware................I understand that...

Sega Genesis also had limited hardware.....then they came out with the 32X ! and the gfx improved.... and so did the speed....same machine! ...just extra add ons!...........the Super NINTENDO had certain capabilities............then came StarFox and Killer Instinct and Donkey Kong Country!  Add-ons in the Cartidge that exapnded the capability of the SNES..........Same machine! just extra hardware!  Just like the MAS Player and Graffiti card for Amiga....or even the DCTV

The DCTV is an excellent example of what I am talking about!...........the Amiga Displays a 16 color picture..yet it is spit out in 16 million colors faster than it would if it was actually displaying 16 million colors...how did they do it?  thinking outside the Box!

Same can be done with ChipRAM..........I suspect it would be a Hardware software Combo.........the Hardware would be like the MegaChip or even the Graffitti....and the Software would be like AmigaDE or Java.........making the computer think its something its not...............if my understanding of AmigaDE is right.......the software supposedly lets any machine think its one machine..........in other words...write one application.........and as long as you have AmigaDE on any machine..........the Machine will think its the machine the software was written for.

It will be similar with ChipRAM...except in this case, the Software will let the REAL Amiga think it is WinUAE!.....  Possible???  I think definitely!


@xeron

Quote:
The hardware limitations of the classic Amiga has NOTHING to do with spiritualism or religion
------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I know it doesnt............I used it as an illustration of how I know you cant believe everything everyman says, even the the So called "Experts" and I dont fall for nay saying all the time.  People love to be negative by nature.

Since in my experience I seen with my own eyes how people purposely blind themselves to the Evidence of God time and time again or even so miss the simplest proof and claim to have high scientific evidence, but they dont,  I see the same comparison here....simpy because God is the highest thing you can possibly believe in.....everything else below it gets even silly-er to use as a comparison.  To put it simply.....the mind of Humans are simply flawed......I know it....and anyone who is honest would admit it.....it is a great thing to admit......because only then will your mind be opened even more.

So I know how it is mans nature to nay Say what they have not yet seen. That was my puspose in the illustration.

Quote:
    even if AAA has to be imitated in software or hardware.....
------------------------------------------------------


This sentence is complete nonsense. Complete. Nonsense. Do you understand? Emulating a more powerful computer on a less powerful computer doesn't work. Do you think E-UAE running on an A500 would let you run AGA games at full speed? No. Even if you managed to get it to run somehow, you'd be talking hours per frame, not frames per second.
------------------------------------------------------------


It's not nonsense..............Im simply speaking of emulating the ChipRAM a AAA machine would have had and how it would have accessed it...........not the entire machine itself.

Quote:


    I even believe you can use USB and make it work to the full on aplain A600 @ 7mhz, despite the fact they say you need at least 68030. Baloney!
--------------------------------------------------------------


USB doesn't go "to the full" on a 68030. The only USB 2.0 card for the Amiga is the Spider. You simply will not reach USB2.0 speeds on an 030. There is nothing stopping USB from working on a 7Mhz 68000 other than the lack of a 68000 USB stack. Write one and it'll work, but it won't be as fast as a USB card on a faster amiga.
-------------------------------------------------------------


Still Baloney!

Some would say you need more than 14mhz on an Amiga in order to run Full frame 16 million color MPEG1..........I beg to differ!   behold!  the FMV card for the CD32!  Nuff Said!

Understand what I am saying here? a CD32 plays perfect VideoCD's...why?  because of a hardware addon....I can even play the Videos through SCALA or Workbench.the chips contained in the FMV card can probably make the card itself alone a full VCD player if you add a CD drive.

the same can be done with a USB card and made to be running at Full 2.0 speeds on a plain A600 @7mhz.  Those portable MP3 players that come in 256mb and up flavors prove this!  im sure they have an OS in there thats real tiny! ...and runs less than 7mhz.   I would even dare say its possible to use FireWire at full speeds on a plain A600 @ 7mhz..with an external box that does all the Data transfer (think of it as a FMV card for an A600 but the F in FMV stands for FireWire)
 it would be something similar to a VLAB parralel port version.


Quote:


    Explain to me how is it I am playing 18bit Mp3's on my plain A600 @ 7mhz? its called the MASPlayer!.... yes I know your thinking....."ah but thats external hardware blah blah blah" Yes.......but its done aint it?
---------------------------------------------------------------


Fine. Thats a whole seperate independant audio chip outside of the Amiga. You want more "graphics memory"? Put a graphics card in your Amiga. Thats a completely seperate independant graphics chip with seperate video memory. You'll be able to run more graphic oriented apps at the same time. YOU WILL NOT HAVE A SINGLE BYTE MORE CHIP RAM, THOUGH.
--------------------------------------------------------------


But thats what Im saying!  except it will be a completely seperate Graphics Chip if need be...........but indeed giving it more ChipRAM.


I am not saying any of this can be done for a FACT....I am just saying I believe it is definitely possible.

[motorollin]

leirbag28 wrote:
I suspect it would be a Hardware software Combo
...
It will be similar with ChipRAM...except in this case, the Software will let the REAL Amiga think it is WinUAE!.....  Possible???  I think definitely!

Ummm, so basically you are talking about running WInUAE on an Amiga. How fast do you think that would be? You would be better off getting a Pegasos board or an A1 and running UAE on that. It's the only way you're going to get more than 2MB of chip ram without replacing the Amiga's motherboard.

You keep banging on about add-on hardware. Clearly you don't understand the point of chip ram. The chip ram bus is linked directly to the custom chips. It is used by Paula, Denise et al. If you want your software to use more than the 2MB Of chip ram, you have to rewrite your software to use fast ram.

If you want to add more chip ram to be available directly to the custom chips, so software which uses chip ram can access it, YOU HAVE TO MODIFY THE HARDWARE. And no, you can't add hardware to the parallel port or expansion port, because the custom chips will ignore it. They are hard wired to the chip ram, so you have to change the way the custom chips interface with each other and with the ram. YOU CANNOT DO THIS WITH SOFTWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why aren't you listening to what people are telling you? People here are giving you very sound reasons why what you're proposing is impossible without replacing the motherboard. Why can't you just accept that they know better?

--
moto

[Flashlab]

@Motorrollin

It's like preaching to the converted; give it up. He/She won't listen.

To be honest this reminds me of those evangelists or Jehovas witnesses that try to convert you on the street. You talk to them but inspite of all the ratio and reason you tell them they keep saying you're wrong. It's frustrating...

[Kronos]

leirbag28 wrote:
@LoadWB

I know its a limitation in the hardware................I understand that...

Sega Genesis also had limited hardware.....then they came out with the 32X ! and the gfx improved.... and so did the speed....same machine! ...just extra add ons!....

Sure, but what effect did this new HW have on old SW ?? Hopefully non, potentially deadly .....

There is absolutly no problem getting more "chipmem" useable for newly written SW. Just use the Permedia, or Voodoo-chip found in your GFX-card .....

[leirbag28]

@motorollin

No I am not talkig about emulating WinUAE.........only the part that allows 8mb ChipRAM to be accesed.


@Flashlab

Im not a Jehovah's Witness (yes they are stuborn for slightly different reasons than evangelsists...they are a Cult)
........the reason for the "hardheadedness" of evangelsists is not because they are stubborn........it is because of their strong conviction in God.

Try convincing a person who saw a aghost and knows he saw a ghost, that he didnt actually see one.  Your gonna lose especially when it comes to the matter of the most important quetion in the universe "what happens after we die?"  you dont want to be second guessing this..........you want to actually "Know for sure"  Your soul depends on it.  its a matter of being wise and making sure your eternal destiny is secure........no matter who ridicules you....if there is a God, a Heaven and hell, then I will tell you what. They could care ess if there are people who dont believe...They want to make sure They dont find out the hard way.......by then its too late.

Their logic and most evangelist anyway, is: if you found a cure for AIDS, would you keep it to yourself? that would be awful.........God actually commands in the Scriptures......that if you have been forgiven..how can you not forgive? and the Good News you have heard about Christ.......go tell it to others.

understand my point?


I dont have any hardheadedness about this issue. I just think it should be done and it can be.... despite every logical reason mentioned here that it cant. If WinAUE can fool my Amiga applications.....then so can a peice of hardware.