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Offline orange

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2005, 10:14:37 AM »
I use&like PS2 very much. it has some problems playing divx (dvds are fine), but its designed for games anyway. driving simulations and platform games are really awesome on it. OTOH fps games suck without mouse and keyboard. Although you can connect USB mouse, its very low quality in games.

Xbox??? why would you want a nonupgradeable PC.. it doesn't seem to me like a console or a computer, and its M$ product anyway :angry:
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Offline harima_kunTopic starter

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2005, 10:26:14 AM »
Thanks for all your help guys, it is good to see the range of opinon, I must admit that I think I will probably get all three systems as I am going to be moving to Japan in the next few months but at the moment I am console.....less....or something so I was intruiged by the XBox 360, I did like my previous XBox, Live and Doom 3 were fantastic and it really felt like there were games more for the older generation on the XBox but the PS 3 really does look amazing ...... oh well, prob get the XBox 360 in December from Japan and then get the PS 3 when it comes out :) I gotta admit I like my gadgets lol Cheers for all your help though guys it good to hear from people who know what they are talking about!
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Offline Legerdemain

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2005, 11:18:39 AM »
But, really... Doom 3 does anything but run smoothly on the XBox... =/ ...(my guess is that) it was a bit too demanding for the system thus the not really high framerate. But on the other hand, Doom 3 for the PC must be one of the worst written games ever... I mean, what hardware does it demand? It ain't that much nicer than Half Life 2 (if at all), and Half Life 2 runs rather nice on even a <2GHz Pentium with 256MB of RAM and a somewhat decent GFX-card. I am yet to see Doom 3 run really smooth on ANY system.

Alien Breed 3D II, anyone? I am still waiting... but running smooth it ain't, ever.
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Offline Louis Dias

Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2005, 11:22:07 AM »
Quote

HopperJF wrote:
Interesting, although the PS2 is more popular, the Gamecube is my favourite of the 3 current generation consoles and is much more fun IMO.


Ditto!

If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360.  That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox.  Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's.  Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.

Nintendo states that their system is going to be 3-5 times more powerful than the GC.  What you don't understand is that when they make that statement, it applies to every aspect of the system, not an overall value.  That said, it seems they will use a full PPC chip again.  Any by that I mean -not a Celeron'd version like in the 360.  It will be 2.5GHz out-of-order executing PPC G5.  The 360 is using an in-order executing core...to save money but have a higher clock.  O-O has better efficiency.  It's what current PC cpu's behave like now and have been for a long time.

Look at the G3 Gekko (GX) in the Gamecube now.  It's a full PPC chip with an extra 37 SIMD instructions (similar to altivec on the Motorola G4) to boost performance and can run on a 200Mhz bus.  The previous IBM offering could (G3 FX) could only run a 133MHz bus.  Though in the GC it is downclocked to 162.5 in order to do a 3x cpu:gpu clock ratio.  The orginal design was for a 200MHz flipper and 400MHz G3.  Now it's a 486Mhz G3 and 162.5 MHz Flipper.  I guess the developers wanted that.

The interesting thing is that this change in specs was made about 4 months before launch.  Makes me think that by playing with a few resistors on the GC's board you can custom select some frequencies.

Also, when Nintendo posts performance numbers, they are always real-world numbers.  The PS2 and XBOX posted 70million and 125 million polygons per seconds capabilities respectively and Nintendo said they could do 12 million real world, textured ...etc... polygons per second.

Show me one cross platform game that looks better on the PS2 than on the Gamecube! - Exactly - doesn't exist.  But I can show you many games that do look better on the Gamecube than on the PS2.  The entire Resident Evil series (um - hello! who said there were no MATURE titles on the Gamecube?) comes to mind instantly for starters.

Nintendo is also coming out about 9 months after the 360.  ATI has been developing the next Nintendo GPU for a year and a half longer than they developed the 360's GPU.

Don't count out Nintendo.  That's all I'm saying.  100% Gamecube compatability and downloadable NES, SNES and N64 (and possibly GB/GBA) titles won't hurt either.  That 3D motion and positional sensing controller with plug-in configurations will make FPS games a dream to play on the machine...not to mention RTS.  It will be a better interface than the mouse.  The next step is to make a 3d holographic display...and then where will we be?  Nice.
 

Offline harima_kunTopic starter

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2005, 11:42:54 AM »
Ah yeah Alien Breed 3D II now that would be amazing, that is a game which IMHO should be done up and converted to all consoles because that game deserves a make over and would seriously kick ass!  Well I don't have a PC to be honest so the closest I have got to playing PC games is the XBox.
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Offline Legerdemain

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2005, 11:58:21 AM »
I also like the Gamecube the most.

I just find it so sad that no one seems to dare to make any good ports or original games for the console. There are remakes and continuations of already existing series... but I have yet to see a large scale developed game to hit the cube the last few years. And I also find it sad that it is looked upon as a children console, but fact is, that there is no PS2 game that couldn't have been made and even made better on the Gamecube. It just so happens that there is something going on at the moment in the market where people seem to think that games for "adults" must be gray, green or dark and/or lots of blood and violence in them.

How could it be that Metroid Prime 2 - Echoes were so overlooked? It is an "adult" game. But, no, when there are adult games released for the system they seem to be ignored. Last time it seemed to work was when Resident Evil 4 were released... but, alas, don't they just have to make a port for the PS2 aswell. My guess is that is because of the fact that they are realising that there is much more money to make out of that port than the original Gamecube release because now the game has got the hype that they were looking for and now the real consumers, the mass, will be treated with the game with some goodies added.

Thing is. The Dreamcast killed all the competition when it was released. But it didn't make it. It could easily have lived on and competed with the PS2 if there were larger developer support for the machine (and if it hadn't been so darn easy to play pirated games on the console). In fact, it does sometimes feel like the battle should have been between the Dreamcast and the PS2, not between the Gamecube, PS2 and XBox. But, at least nowadays the developers seems to have overcome the obstacles that made it so hard to develop games for the PS2 using what the hardware really had to offer. But, when I start to play games like Shenmue, Rayman 2 or Ikaruga on my Dreamcast... dear god... what could that machine have been able to deliver it it would have had the time to be explored, just like the PS2?

Oh, well... back to the Gamecube... I love the console for its potential... and the fact that most games, even the PAL ones, can be run in perfectly smooth 60Hz. Looking at the various versions of GTA for the PS2, I can't understand how people can even accept the crappy framerate (in Vice City they have tried to hide it behind some kind of blur filter when things are going to fast, but the effect is rather bad control at that times instead).

Why can't the world wake up and realise what they need to do?

*grumble*
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Offline Louis Dias

Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2005, 12:01:00 PM »
Quote

harima_kun wrote:
Ah yeah Alien Breed 3D II now that would be amazing, that is a game which IMHO should be done up and converted to all consoles because that game deserves a make over and would seriously kick ass!  Well I don't have a PC to be honest so the closest I have got to playing PC games is the XBox.


Hmmm. I played Alien Breed 1 & 2 and 3d.  What I liked about 1 & 2 was the puzzle aspects along with the action.  I'm now playing Metroid Prime on the GameCube and THAT is exactly what it is.  It's Alien Breed 3D - 4 or something.  It's just so beautiful, huge and awesome.
 

Offline Legerdemain

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2005, 12:12:27 PM »
Quote
Hmmm. I played Alien Breed 1 & 2 and 3d. What I liked about 1 & 2 was the puzzle aspects along with the action. I'm now playing Metroid Prime on the GameCube and THAT is exactly what it is. It's Alien Breed 3D - 4 or something. It's just so beautiful, huge and awesome.


Alien Breed have never been about getting that item over there then backtracking ones way back to the very beginning of the game to realise that it can be used there to unlock something entirely new (as far as I've played the series, which isn't really that much). Alien Breed has always been about minor puzzles solved in each level just to progress to the next. Even the 3D ones in the series. Though, if they had developed their concept it could have gotten somewhere closer in touch with the Metroid series, maybe.

That is one thing I have always found lacking in AMiGA games in general. They didn't develop their concepts. Turrican II did try some daring things, like making three stages in the otherwise rather ordinary (but excellent, may I add) platform game shoot'em up ones... and it worked perfectly. Why didn't that game inspire other to dare aswell?

For one thing, most platformers used this concept of instead of creating really huge, smart laid out and intriguing stages, which held the player occupied for some time, making them short and too complex with so much crammed in there that was physically possible... just to lengthen the time of playing by adding something that needed to be collected before one could exit the stage... Super Frog, Zool, Kid Chaos, and so on... not that I consider Super Frog being a bad game, but it could have done so much better with nicer layout of the levels without that boring coincollecting.

Concerning Metroid, once again, Exile is often compared to that very game... I haven't played Exile much at all, but I have yet to find any similarities?
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Offline Louis Dias

Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2005, 12:29:08 PM »
Well, SEGA shot themselves in the foot by releasing the 32X and Saturn practically at the same time then the DC only 2-3 years later.  Too many systems for it's own fans to support.  Then ontop of that, they were so keen on pushing their sports titles that they never went out and got EA on board.

You can't piss off EA.  Sad but true.

Finally, many DC games were ported to the GC as director's cuts.  Skies of Arcadia was incredible.  Ikaranga (spelling?) was also ported...and it's sequel I believe.

The DC could out texture the PS2 but the PS2 had a slight polygon count edge.  The DC was easier to program for.  The Gamecube out does both in every aspect.  The only thing the PS2 has on the GC is 12cm 4.7GB DVD's vs. 8cm 1.8GB DVD's, digital sound output and Nintendos lack of online-enabled game support...though it did offer a broadband adapter...

The GC's memory card size was initially a limitation but they fixed that soon enough.

The GBA-connectivity was neat but mostly a whatever the Dreamcast can do, Nintendo can do better feature...though it's brilliant in Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles and Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure...however if those 2 games were online-enabled, they would have sold millions.  It's hard to get 4 people with 4 GBA's and link cables to come together long enough to finish those games.

XBOX is just a PC in console's clothing so it was never a worthwhile investment for me as I already own a much more powerful PC already.  It brought nothing new to the table except for pushing online play.  I'd much rather play HALO on the PC than the XBOX.  The best XBOX titles (mind you those are few and far between) also have superior PC releases.  Microsoft initially delayed the PC release on purpose on many a title in order to "push" the XBOX on people...  That's OK, I can wait.
 

Offline Legerdemain

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2005, 12:46:09 PM »
Quote
Finally, many DC games were ported to the GC as director's cuts. Skies of Arcadia was incredible. Ikaranga (spelling?) was also ported...and it's sequel I believe.


Concerning the rest you said I agree. SEGA did themselves no favour when not getting EA onboard, and neither by releasing the SEGA CD, SEGA 32X and SEGA Saturn in a row. Not good planning.

But, back to the ports... the port of Skies of Arcadia was really a work of haste. Not only did they screw up the music (it sounds like bad midi music on the Gamecube) but also the blur-filter which was used on the Dreamcast (you can see it at approx 50% of the screen and upwards on both consles, the textures do get kind of blurry) probably mainly due to not making the game lose FPS was not needed on the Gamecube... but it is there anyways. They could have raised the FPS, but no. And another problem was that the Gamecube version became too sharp at times... grahicswise. Just look at the clouds in the very intro/titlescreen on the Dreamcast and compare them with the Gamecube dito... they look terrible...  =)

Oh well. Bad port, but fantastic game anyways. I love it!

Ikaruga, made by Treasure (oh, that company can make me wet my pants at times), yep... it is an indirect sequel to the Saturn/Arcade game Radiant Silvergun (it may be that the game has recieved an unbelievable amount of praise, but I have never spent so many hours with a shooter before... and that even though I just got hold of it a couple of weeks ago  for the Saturn). Radiant Silvergun to me is the best shooter ever, and Ikaruga is great aswell... but a tad too hard.

Speaking of shooters...  noticed some few shooters on the AMiGA which were rather good. The R-Type port is very playable... but not fantastic. R-Type 2 was better. But I had completely overlooked Disposable Hero and Z-Out... those games were great! Often I hear people praise Project X, but in reality I find that game nothing but very nice to look at and way too hard for its own good. I am quite an experienced shoot'em up player (a bit above average, maybe), but I have really much problems with getting past the very first levels of Project X.

Hahahaha... this must be one of the threads were I speak about most things... talk about having problems sticking to the very topic! I just got started, I guess... I can't help myself.
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Offline harima_kunTopic starter

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2005, 12:57:26 PM »
Yeah the Sega Saturn and Dreamcast really were for me the best consoles with some of the most innovative games and I don't mean by hardware but what the developers did within the confinded space of a standard saturn/dc pad.  It is strange but the X Box for me is basically a Dreamcast 2, Sega have put a lot support behind it and for me that is why I support the XBox not because of MS but because of Sega's support which many people seem to ignore but if you were in Japan you would see how people perceive the X Box as more a Sega games platform, I loved playing Outrun 2 on the XBox that was amazing, monkey ball is coming out and the House of the Dead III, for people who like Sega arcade games sadly the X Box is the next step.
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Offline koaftder

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2005, 02:45:46 PM »
Quote

If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360.  That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox.  Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's.  Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.


I'm going to take a wild guess here, but i bet they will be wiritng their games in c++. C++ obviously wasnt designed with concurrency in mind, so the compilers dont inheriently make use of multiple cores, but hey, thats what a threading library is for. Create your thread, assign it to a core, or just let the kernel take care of spreading your threads accross the cores. I am sure you are familiar with this, having used the windows threading library, or maybe even pthreads.

Or they could just use something like occam, but then you would have a high rate of suicide in the game programmer community.
 

Offline MskoDestny

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2005, 03:04:29 PM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
If you listen to some developers, there is no good compilers to take advantage of the second and third cores on the 360.  That means that first gen 360 titles will used about twice the processing power of the original Xbox.  Same goes for the PS3 and their SPU's.  Nobody's going to use all 7 for a very very long time.

You don't need a good compiler to take advantage of all 3 cores, you need to learn how to write a multi-threaded game. It won't be an incredibly easy transition, but games that were actually designed for next-gen hardware (like PGR3) instead of just beefed up versions of current-gen games look quite good already. Compilers still could stand to be better given that the cores are in order and have relatively poor branch prediction, but things are looking good with current compilers.

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Nintendo states that their system is going to be 3-5 times more powerful than the GC.

Source please. Only numbers I've heard from Nintendo are 2-3 times more powerful not 3-5.

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What you don't understand is that when they make that statement, it applies to every aspect of the system, not an overall value.

I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. They said the Revolution would be 2-3x more powerful than the Gamecube, not that each individual component would be.

Quote
It will be 2.5GHz out-of-order executing PPC G5.  The 360 is using an in-order executing core...to save money but have a higher clock.

That's just rumor at the moment and I don't particularly buy it. The G5 is an expensive part and it would have been foolish of Nintendo to say that the Revolution would only be 2-3x more powerful when the chip that would power it has 5x the clockspeed a more complete vector unit and a substantially improved FPU.

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Show me one cross platform game that looks better on the PS2 than on the Gamecube! - Exactly - doesn't exist.

The PS2 has a "weird" architecture compared to the Gamecube and XBox. Getting anywhere near what it's capable of requires that you tailor your game around the hardware. When developing a multi-platform game you have to shoot for the middle of the pack. In the next generation, the PS3 and XBox360 will be relatively similar. Both have high speed, but not incredibly sophisticated processors and both depend on thread level parallelism for high performance. If the rumors about the Revolution are true, then it will be the odd-man out next generation, much like the PS2 was this generation.

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Nintendo is also coming out about 9 months after the 360.

Nintendo hasn't published a release date other than saying sometime in 2006.

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Don't count out Nintendo.

They've sold fewer consoles with each generation and I so no reason that trend won't continue. The Gamecube has some great first and second party games, but the third party lineup was quite weak and that's not going to improve unless they manage to get some more marketshare.

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That 3D motion and positional sensing controller with plug-in configurations will make FPS games a dream to play on the machine...not to mention RTS.  It will be a better interface than the mouse.

FPS games will still suck on the console for lack of buttons. I'll reserve judgement on how well the whole motion sensing works out until I can try one, but I'm not crazy about having to attach extra junk to my TV to make it work. The plug-in concept seems to defeat the purpose of making the controller simple and remote shaped in the first place. The thing was supposed to be simple and approachable, but the plug-in add-ons just make the thing mroe complicated. I sort of see the following situation happening. Some games just need the remote, some need the analog stick, Gamecube/N64/SNES games and maybe some multi-platform games need the funny shell that makes it more like a standard controller. Would have been simpler if they had just added the motion/position sensing to the Gamecube controller and given it a minor tweak or two.

As for the XBox 360 and compatability, the game itself doesn't have to come with an emulator. The emulator comes with the hard drive. At the moment it's unclear which games will work. Popular titles like Halo and Halo 2 will definately work, more niche titles are more of a crap shoot at the moment. If compatability is important to you, I'd wait for a few months and see what people say. My guess is they will try their best to make every game work, but they aren't likely to test all games.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2005, 09:02:53 PM »
Nintendo retracted their 2-3 times the power statement with a 3-5.  They've also stated that codename Revolution would be released shortly after the PS3 which is currently due March/April of 2006.

As for how can I make that statement about every aspect of the system...let's break it down:

cpu: 486Mhz vs. 2.5GHz > 5
disc drive: 8cm 1.8GB disc vs. 12cm 6GB disc > 3
memory minimun: 40MB vs minimum of 128MB + 512 internal flash > 5
sound: 64 channels Prologic IItrue Dolby Digital expected.
gpu: 162.5MHz w/3MB texture cache vs. (estimated atleast as good as the XBOX's since Ninento has a stronger relationship with ATI and longer development time invested) 500MHz w/10MB texture cache > 3

as for my claims on the cpu.  You act like a G5 is expensive these days.  The cpu has been in MACs for a couple of years now in sufficient numbers.  If anything, I expect Nintendo to move more CPU's then Apple ever did over the course of Revolution's lifetime.  Multiple developers have leaked that Nintendo had 2 systems proto-typed as devloper board.  A dual cpu 1.8 GHz machine and a single 2.5 GHz machine.
 

Offline MskoDestny

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2005, 03:29:30 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Nintendo retracted their 2-3 times the power statement with a 3-5.

I'd still like to see your source of this information.

Quote
They've also stated that codename Revolution would be released shortly after the PS3 which is currently due March/April of 2006.

Shortly after is somewhat of a relative term and is a far cry to commiting to a release date.

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As for how can I make that statement about every aspect of the system...let's break it down:

Basically you're making your claim based on specs leaked by supposed developers who also claim that Nintendo hasn't even decided on the final specs yet.

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disc drive: 8cm 1.8GB disc vs. 12cm 6GB disc > 3

I thought the revolution would use standard DVDs? Wouldn't that be either 4.7 or 8.something GBs?

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memory minimun: 40MB vs minimum of 128MB + 512 internal flash > 5

Counting the flash along with the RAM is a mistake. It's more akin to a small hard drive with a really low seek time than RAM. That said some of the supposed specs leak had some huge amount of RAM in it. Don't know if I believe that though.

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gpu: 162.5MHz w/3MB texture cache vs. (estimated atleast as good as the XBOX's since Ninento has a stronger relationship with ATI and longer development time invested) 500MHz w/10MB texture cache > 3

I don't think the longer relationship argument is going to go very far. ATI must have had offered Microsoft a pretty sweet chip (or perhaps a really sweet pricing deal) to lure them away from nVidia (thus making backwards compatability more complicated). Furthermore, it seems it's a safe bet that Microsoft can promise to buy more chips than Nintendo.

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as for my claims on the cpu.  You act like a G5 is expensive these days.

Well it is expensive and Nintendo has this habit of trying to make a profit on every console they sell.

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The cpu has been in MACs for a couple of years now in sufficient numbers.

And just how expensive is the cheapest Mac with a 2.5GHz or higher G5? If they were shoving them in Mac minis, I might agree that it's cheap.

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If anything, I expect Nintendo to move more CPU's then Apple ever did over the course of Revolution's lifetime.

Apple sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.25 million Macintoshes in the last quarter. Hard to say how many of those were G5s, but all of the PowerMacs have two CPUs these days. Given that Nintendo has sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 million Gamecubes I don't think they're in different ballparks.

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Multiple developers have leaked that Nintendo had 2 systems proto-typed as devloper board.  A dual cpu 1.8 GHz machine and a single 2.5 GHz machine.

And that means diddly squat. Microsoft's early dev machines were dual 2.5GHz G5s. That's not what they released in the end.
 

Offline adolescent

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Re: XBox 360 not quite Amiga I know
« Reply #29 from previous page: October 14, 2005, 04:13:45 AM »
Making judgements on systems that aren't even finalized is foolish.  Of course, making judgements based on specs alone is even more so.  It all comes down to the games.

Even Nintendo agrees with this...  Revolution Less Powerful

Myself, I'll be picking up an XBox360 since it is available soon, and there are games that I want to play on it (Perfect Dark Zero, Project Gotham Racing 3, Madden 06, etc.)  

If/when the PS3 and Rev come out I'll probably pick up those as well, provided there are good games for them.  

For the GCN, it appears that the focus has officially shifted to the Rev, leaving it to an early death.  Rapidly declining sales, lack of games, premiere titles falling off the release list and/or being delayed, etc.  I think everyone could see this happening for a long time.  After all, if your best launch title is Luigi's Mansion, then you have a problem.
Time to move on.  Bye Amiga.org.  :(