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Author Topic: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable  (Read 6481 times)

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guest11527

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #89 from previous page: November 03, 2014, 06:02:49 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;776609
To Thomas Richter:

So, basically you're complaining about something that you can fix yourself, but won't, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that you would use.

Really, what a load of crap.

No. A) I don't complain. I report. You may or not may the report, but this is what I have to say on the matter. I'm not trying to attack anyone by this. B) I don't want to spend time on this because I'm simply not interested enough for spending time on it. There are more important tasks I need to take care of. You again may not like this, but yes, that is what it is.  

Apparently, you seem to take this personal. I don't understand why. I'm reporting my experience, a experience you don't share, and you see this as something it isn't. I don't take the matter serious enough to take action. You seem to do, but you should understand that we then live in different worlds.  

This report doesn't require an action. Read it as you please, take action, or ignore it, whatever helps you. All I'm saying is "what I currently get in respect of emulation doesn't satisfy my needs". Full stop. The "need" isn't urgent enough to require any action, and it's so low in priority that I don't waste my time on it. If you want to invest your time, that's all good, I gave hints how to do that, how I approached the problem, where to find my solution, and to review it or implement or ignore it as you seem fit.

Thus, if you plan to do something, you're welcome to do, and that's what I'm able to do about it.

I don't understand why there is any need to turn this into a personal attack. But you should probably adjust your view on reality a little bit. Yes, there are really many things in my life that are more important than Amiga, and I'm rather sorry for you if that's not the case in your life.

Honestly, I don't like the style by which you approach me. What is this about? You have a different opinion? Fine then, be good about it. This is my personal view, my sole and only. Share it or don't. There were good hints in this thread, other solutions I haven't considered, and I may try in the future (and I haven't tried due to lack of time), but your "answer" is really the worst of it.
 

Offline HammerD

Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2014, 06:21:56 PM »
Hi Thomas, it's too bad you don't have access to a Windows machine, WinUAE is light years ahead of the other "uae" variants as I've seen (I have to admit though, I haven't tested other versions recently).  And Toni Wilen is very quickly fixing bugs and improving the software.

WinUAE on my i7 is crazy fast and even runs AmigaOS 4.1 Classic faster than my "real" Cyberstorm PPC Amiga 4000.  AmigaOS 3.9 is even better supported with WinUAE and it's extensions, it's really a pleasure to use.

Take care,
Darren
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 06:24:19 PM by HammerD »
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!
 

Offline buzz

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2014, 06:31:02 PM »
Thomas is right and everyone else is wrong - He's way too stubborn / arrogant to admit to anything else - he's also a professional developer and we are all amateurs of course - so what do we know.

He's reporting a problem, except in the wrong place - obviously has no interest in helping the fs-uae developer (even with constructive feedback) - he can't even write on the correct forum. Nor is he able to google for vamos it seems.

I'm just pleased that he is on the other end of a keyboard on a forum, and that I don't have to work with him or something! his questions have been answered - and options given - but he chooses to ignore them (or go on about how they won't work). What more can be done....

fs-uae is an excellent piece of a software - with a friendly dev who goes out his way to implement requested features, write documention, help users and more. The least that could be done would be some polite feedback to him and perhaps actually trying some of the solutions offered by people here.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 06:38:31 PM by buzz »
 

guest11527

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2014, 07:19:44 PM »
Quote from: buzz;776613
Thomas is right and everyone else is wrong - He's way too stubborn / arrogant to admit to anything else - he's also a professional developer and we are all amateurs of course - so what do we know.  
You still don't get it. How often do I have to repeat this. This is not about "right or wrong". This is about "works for me or not". Yes, if you don't understand the difference, you are an amateur, indeed, but not as a software developer. You're reading something into my post I do not want to be read into them.  
Quote from: buzz;776613
He's reporting a problem, except in the wrong place - obviously has no interest in helping the fs-uae developer (even with constructive feedback) - he can't even write on the correct forum. Nor is he able to google for vamos it seems.
No, exactly *not*. I'm *not* reporting a problem. I'm giving an answer to questions I received. The question was "why don't you use an emulator", and the answer is "because it doesn't work for me because...". If I had any intent to fix an emulator because I had a need to use an emulator, then this would be the wrong place indeed. But that's not what I'm even attempting. I simply do not care about emulators, or windows, or... The are things that are far more important - got it?    
Quote from: buzz;776613
I'm just pleased that he is on the other end of a keyboard on a forum, and that I don't have to work with him or something! his questions have been answered - and options given - but he chooses to ignore them (or go on about how they won't work). What more can be done....
Answers are nice, but I haven't posted any question. I made a statement. Here's another statement, and I repeat it, just for you: If I have to go through circles to get an emulator working for needs such as text editing, one may wonder whether there is probably something wrong. I don't bother enough to do something about it, and it's probably because the emulator isn't designed to be used for what I intended it to be used for. That's it, end of story.    
Quote from: buzz;776613
fs-uae is an excellent piece of a software - with a friendly dev who goes out his way to implement requested features, write documention, help users and more. The least that could be done would be some polite feedback to him and perhaps actually trying some of the solutions offered by people here.

Maybe it is fine for your needs, maybe it works good enough for you, maybe the developer is nice. Very likely that you are correct, I do not doubt that it works for you. All I'm saying, "doesn't work for me". I'm not requesting anyone to fix anything, I'm probably not a typical user for FS-UAE to judge or to care. You don't need to take action to fix anything. I'm not reporting anything, and not requesting a fix. It's a piece of software that, apparently, has an intended audience I'm not part of. That's not a trategy, so why do you make it one?

Again, what is it that you don't accept my experience? It is what happened when I tried to use it, with my particular intended use. What's particularly arrogant about this? You are interpreting something into my mouth I haven't said.
 

Offline eliyahu

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2014, 07:24:43 PM »
@thread

guys, this is starting to get a little personal. let's lower the tone, please. people can disagree without being insulting. :)

-- eliyahu
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Offline mrmoonlight

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2014, 08:23:14 PM »
Quote from: eliyahu;776617
@thread

guys, this is starting to get a little personal. let's lower the tone, please. people can disagree without being insulting. :)

-- eliyahu
Hi and I have to agree  attacking people verbally does not serve a useful purpose and does not make good reading .
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Offline buzz

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #95 on: November 04, 2014, 01:51:02 AM »
I apologise if I have been overly personal or aggressive. It has been a frustrating thread.

I (amongst others) actually thought Thomas was after a solution - I guess not.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 01:55:09 AM by buzz »
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #96 on: November 04, 2014, 02:02:12 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
I don't complain. I report.
No. This is complaining, the thread title is a dead giveaway:
Quote
Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
I don't want to spend time on this because I'm simply not interested enough for spending time on it.
You're certainly interested enough to start a thread like this. A thread which will undoubtedly end up serving no purpose at all.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
Apparently, you seem to take this personal. I don't understand why.
It comes off as complaining, and not doing anything about it while you have the skills to fix it. It's probably not even very difficult, and it probably won't even take all that much time. It's annoying.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
This report doesn't require an action.
And had you contacted the authors of these emulators, and reported the issues properly (something that would've taken less time to do then making this thread and posting in it several times), they might have been interested in fixing the issue.

It's no shirt off my back, of course, but it's certainly annoying. You find it too unimportant to fix, but not to complain about it.
 

guest11527

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #97 on: November 04, 2014, 07:17:07 AM »
Quote from: Thorham;776652
It's no shirt off my back, of course, but it's certainly annoying. You find it too unimportant to fix, but not to complain about it.

Once again: The purpose of the thread was to answer a question I got: "Why don't you use emulators". Here's the answer. You don't like it - that's ok. But I really don't care enough. I don't have the dare need for using an Amiga emulator in first place. It would be a "nice to have", but not a "must have". Reporting my problems would have caused another round of needless discussions, discussions that happened here already, and I'm tired of discussing this stuff.

My conclusion from this is that apparently emulators are good enough for those that want to use them, for the typical purpose of those that use them, and I guess that's probably gaming. That's perfectly fine, I don't doubt it. So let it be as it is. You also don't complain that your fridge cannot brew coffee - it's not designed to do that. So apparently I started with an expectation on the purpose of these programs for something they were never designed for. It would be nice if the fridge would brew coffee, but it doesn't. Tough luck, my fault to expect it could. I'm still using a coffee machine for that (i.e. the Amiga hardware), and that works according to my expectations.

There's a subtile difference here. You seem to understand "Emulators are crap", but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "they don't suit my intended purpose because...", and I don't really want to bother arguing about a purpose that wasn't intended in first place.
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #98 on: November 04, 2014, 07:52:51 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776661
Once again: The purpose of the thread was to answer a question I got: "Why don't you use emulators".
Then answer them by PM or email instead of starting a thread which comes off as complaining.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #99 on: November 04, 2014, 10:14:01 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776603
I cannot write an email if @ is at a confusing location, and I cannot write a program if \ is at a confusing location.


That is the case out of the box, but both uae and amigaos allows them to be configured so they would be in the correct place for you.

Quote from: Thomas Richter;776611
This report doesn't require an action.

Why did you request a specific solution to the problem then?

If instead you had asked if anybody had a solution to the problem you were facing and you didn't just shout down everybody who gave you solutions then you might have found this thread to be more amicable. What you suggested is over-engineered and is likely to be more of a maintenance issue moving forward.

Someone probably should come up with a pre-packaged set of files for each country for working in UAE this way, it would appear that nobody is that bothered or it would have been done already.
 

guest11527

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2014, 10:47:08 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;776669
That is the case out of the box, but both uae and amigaos allows them to be configured so they would be in the correct place for you.
Make an "idiot test", and take me as the idiot. This test works as follows: Take someone who is sufficiently experienced with AmigaOs, and sufficiently experienced with the host operating system, and expose him or her to the emulator in question. As him or her to perform task X, where X is defined by a use case. X can be "play a game", or "write a program", or "use a CAD program". Then watch what he or she does, and where problems appear.

I told you the output of my idiot test. "Didn't work". It does not matter whether the key is configurable if I don't know where to configure (bad documentation) or if I had to configure it in first place ("why isn't it in the right place to begin with").

You may question my choice of X ("write a program") instead of your X ("play a game"), but you cannot question my experience. My experience is what I described here: "It does not satisfy my needs". That's it.

Quote from: psxphill;776669
Why did you request a specific solution to the problem then?
Once again. I DID NOT REQUEST A SOLUTION. I'm describing my experience. How often do I need to say?

Quote from: psxphill;776669
What you suggested is over-engineered and is likely to be more of a maintenance issue moving forward.
Look, this is a discussion about use cases, software usability, usability tests and maintenance. For your application and your use case, this might be overengineering indeed. I don't doubt it, and I said that I probably misunderstood what the emulators are designed to be good for. (Even though, it's really not *that* complicated, as I did it, but whatever, what might be simple for one might be complicated for another).

For my use case, it seemed self evident that the default configuration is or should be a useful (as in "useful for me") configuration. It isn't. That's my experience. In my simple minded idiot approach, I simply took it for granted that if I press key "X" on the keyboard, the computer reads input "X", with X=\ or @. This expectation is apparently silly for what you had in mind, sorry for that. It seems for your application far more improtant that X matches the position on the original Amiga keyboard. This might be valid, I don't doubt your words, but it's wrong for me, and I can only ensure you that it really is. It is very confusing and stops me from typing efficiently.

The simple-minded expectation I have if I use a program for "X" (with X= "write a program") that the program reacts without further hassle for me in a natural case, for whatever "natural" means in this specific case. For me it means "Alt+ß" is backslash, because that's what's printed on my keyboard. I'm apparently expecting something wrong, and probably for the only reason that these emulators haven't been designed for my use. This is, as said, not a trategy, but simply a fact, and I'm stating this fact.

Configuration doesn't make this better - it is an additional barrier you create for first time users like me, even more so if the documentation is lacking. See the idiot test. I strongly believe that every other user with the same intended use ("write a program") would have stated as well "what the f?ck is this?" and would have put the program aside. Or maybe not, at least this is my believe.

"First time should get it right", quite simple. The problem is, and I'm saying this once again, that "right for you" and "right for me" are different things, as we found out. Now what? I don't want and can't complain - if it fits your needs, so may it be. It doesn't fit mine, it's not a tragedy, I have other ways I prefer to do my errants.

Quote from: psxphill;776669
Someone probably should come up with a pre-packaged set of files for each country for working in UAE this way, it would appear that nobody is that bothered or it would have been done already.

Better installation procedure, or selection of a choice during installation ("match by position" vs. "match by key label") might be a possible solution for this problem, yes. If you believe it is worth a thought. I, as said, do not mind if people tell me that my expectations are probably overly ambitious or do not meet the expected requirements of the software.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #101 on: November 04, 2014, 11:00:15 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776673
Once again. I DID NOT REQUEST A SOLUTION. I'm describing my experience. How often do I need to say?
 
 You clearly did.
 
 
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776065
Solutions: Yes, this is hard. Two keyboard layouts are involved. The PC keyboard, and the Amiga keyboard. The solution I have found in "atari++" is: If the key maps to a regular printable character, perform the mapping by position. If the user presses the "Z" key, emulate the key that is at the same position as on the Amiga keyboard. This way, local keymaps work. If the key is a function key, i.e. "shift" or "caps lock", perform the mapping by function, not by position. Caps and Control are always the same position on a PC keyboard, no matter which national layout is used, so allow the user to change the position of these keys. Kes that are not on the PC keyboard should be emulated in an obvious matter. Backslash: AltGr+? for a German keyboard, hence "map by function". Simply *not* mapping this key is not helping.
 

guest11527

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #102 on: November 04, 2014, 11:55:52 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;776675
You clearly did.

Oh, stop the bull. I'm offering my solution for the same problem, I'm not requesting that this problem is solved in xx-UAE. Whether that's ever working in xx-UAE I don't even care about anymore. I found that this isn't what I want, or isn't even supposed to work as I would prefer it to work.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #103 on: November 04, 2014, 04:12:25 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;776679
Oh, stop the bull. I'm offering my solution for the same problem, I'm not requesting that this problem is solved in xx-UAE.

And you say I should stop the bull?
 You should be a politician.
 

guest11527

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Re: Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2014, 06:58:51 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;776698
And you say I should stop the bull?
 You should be a politician.

What else do you expect? Or rather, what else is the intent of your intent than to provoke exactly this reply? I told you what the intention was. If you want to read something different into my answer, then I afraid that just shows your intent to see me as someone I'm not. Thus, stop the nonense, please.