Reasons why I don't like emulators - or why xx-UAE is really unusable

[OlafS3]

Where can I find "vamos"? I do not know this program, so I cannot comment. A *ix comand line tool for compiling would actually help for my use case.

On Aros Vision (FS-UAE or WinUAE / Windows) I get the key by Alt-ß (not Alt Gr)

[Terminills]

Ah, thank you. I did not know this, this would at least make the console and the editor half-way usable, or at least usable at all. It's still not ideal since it does not follow the conventions of the german PC keyboard  and makes editing uselessly hard. It's again a matter of use-cases: For the casual user or the gamer, this is surely not a barrier. How often would you need the key in first place? For a developer, oh well...

If you read the whole thread last post tells you how to move extra key position.  It's a config setting.

[guest11527]

Honestly, I stopped reading when you announced you'd never use UAE under WINE, because you don't support people who don't support Linux - just two mention in the next posting, that MS-Word "works perfectly under WINE.

There is "professional work" and there is "hobby". If I'm paid for, I have no problem using windows, that's what the money is good for, and if part of that money goes to Redmont, then let it be - somebody else already paid.

However, if I can choose how to waste my time for free, you'd better get me a system I prefer to use. For my own documents, I'd prefer LaTeX (but for more than just "free software". Formula editing in word is really usunable, but that's again a different story).

[koaftder]

There is "professional work" and there is "hobby".

Not this crap again. You're beating a dead horse with this. This is not a serious pants software development forum.

Nobody cares about what methodology you'd use if you were getting paid to do blah because that's boring, not to mention pointless to a crowd of users and hobby hackers.

Don't get me wrong though, you make excellent points and while I agree with perhaps 95% of what you say, I still cringe when I read your posts.

[guest11527]

Not this crap again. You're beating a dead horse with this. This is not a serious pants software development forum.

Of course it isn't. So please don't try to convince me to use windows for this.

[koaftder]

Of course it isn't. So please don't try to convince me to use windows for this.

I certainly wouldn't. What I don't get is why you'd spend time lecturing people here how things ought to be when the sources are available for you to do what you wish with them.

[guest11527]

I certainly wouldn't. What I don't get is why you'd spend time lecturing people here how things ought to be when the sources are available for you to do what you wish with them.

The thread was "what I don't like about emulators", not "what can I do to fix to make emulators working", note the subtile difference. It was considered a general answer to all those that recommended or asked me "why don't you use an emulator", and that's the answer. You may not like the answer, but that is it.

But sorry, no, I'm too occupied with more important errants than to fix Amiga emulators. I've more than enough to do to fix my own stuff, and no, I'm not talking about Amiga in specific. In a sense, I don't understand your approach: Just because I'm releasing some software for free does not mean that my time has no value. If you want to see how I approached the keyboard mapping problem when I had it, I already provided hints I believe (and yes, you can download sources).

[Terminills]

If you read the whole thread last post tells you how to move extra key position.  It's a config setting.

Here's the config for swapping with the equals

Code:
keyboard_key_equals = action_key_backslash
keyboard_key_insert = action_key_equals

[Minuous]

>It's still the wrong solution for the problem, it's an emulation of Windows API on Linux. What for? Write portable programs in first place.

So, by logical extension, every program ever written should be ported to every platform, so we wouldn't need emulators? That's not an efficient solution to the problem of cross-platform compatibility. Toni Wilen is busy improving WinUAE. It already has a proper Windows GUI. Making a proper Linux GUI for it would be a lot of work. Or the alternative, replacing it with an SDL GUI, would be not only a lot of work but also a downgrade. I'd rather he continued to improve the emulation.

>My stuff runs on Windows, Linux, AIX, IRIX, Solaris and probably a couple of other Os'es. Too lazy?

It's not that portable if it doesn't run on the Amiga, of course. Too lazy? ;-)

>There's no usable emulator for my platform and my application, that's what I'm claiming, no more no less.

Seems a rather pointless thread: I don't think there are many Linux programmers here that will write a new Amiga emulator for you. (You might have luck filing a bug report though with the coders of existing Linux UAE versions.) FS-UAE has some issues that mean you aren't going to use it, I think everyone understands already. Either that or it's just another anti-emulation rant. I don't get the hate that emulation gets, no one starts topics like "I hate word processors"... I also don't understand why you would write/port one if you hate them.

>For example, get the SDL documentation for starters - that's a nice portable multimedia abstraction library that is very workable.

SDL is awful, it's just a common-denominator approach that totally ignores the conventions of the host OS. Properly ported software should be properly adapted to eg. the prevailing GUI look and feel of what it's running on. For an example, compare my AmiArcadia and WinArcadia emulators.

>No, the level a key has to be handled depends on the key..."Reasonable remapping" is exactly the purpose of the emulator.

There's various philosophies about how to do remapping, eg. some emus have an option for positional mapping vs. keyname mapping. Neither is unreasonable, as they each have pros and cons depending on what guest program you are running. Hence why it is often provided as a user preference.

>(and yes, you can download sources).

Is http://www.thomas-richter.de your site?

[guest11527]

So, by logical extension, every program ever written should be ported to every platform, so we wouldn't need emulators?  

Ideally, yes.

Making a proper Linux GUI for it would be a lot of work.  

No, it wouldn't if a proper GUI had been used. There are many portable solutions out there. Qt comes to my mind, gtk comes to my mind...

It's not that portable if it doesn't run on the Amiga, of course. Too lazy?

No, not really. Lack of demand due to lack of computing performance. It should be compilable right away with the g++ compiler. SAS/C is too old for that.

Seems a rather pointless thread: I don't think there are many Linux programmers here that will write a new Amiga emulator for you.

Thus, "I cannot use an emulator". That's what I said in first place. It's not a matter of hating or not. It is a matter of "works for me or not". That's a difference, and I believe I pointed this out many times.

SDL is awful, it's just a common-denominator approach that totally ignores the conventions of the host OS.

This is exactly the great part about it. You get a pretty portable access to low-level features of the Os without all the hassle.

Is http://www.thomas-richter.de your site?

No.

[Georg]

No, the level a key has to be handled depends on the key, and there's more than ASCII and scancode, really. Scancode is completely wrong, because the user can re-assign keys, and the scan code doesn't get that. ASCII is wrong because some keys do not even generate ASCII.  You need a multi-level translation: 1) Get the key function from the Os (not the scan code!). 2) Check whether that function maps to a printable "non-dead" key. 3) If not so, map to the corresponding function key on the host keyboard. For the Amiga, there is no multi-level translation, so just map it to the scancode. 4) If so, get the Amiga keyboard (by GUI configuration, or by a smarter way from AmigaOs through an emulation layer). From there, find the scancode for the key. Send one or multiple scan codes to emulate that key (or keys) to generate the same effect.

This algorithm works, and yes, I had this implemented, though not for xxx-UAE purposes.

No, there are other problems with this algorithm, too. Keyboard is used for more things than just typing text. For example think about keyboard shortcuts in a paint/music/cad/3d program. Or about commodity hotkeys. For these it is irrelevant what ASCII the key would produce when used in a text typing program/editor.

A shortcut like "CTRL ALT Q" should always remain on the Q key, even if on the host this sequence would produce the "@" key which on the Amiga keyboard may not be on the Q keq but somewhere else.

[psxphill]

Thus, "I cannot use an emulator". That's what I said in first place. It's not a matter of hating or not. It is a matter of "works for me or not". That's a difference, and I believe I pointed this out many times.

You cannot use an emulator because you've got perceived problems that you hate the only sane solution to. You can whinge about the solution not being clear to you, but nobody cares as it will work for you if you could get over yourself.

There are problems with emulators that have less than ideal solutions and some problems are unsolvable, nobody cares if you complain about those either.
 
 Sure it would be nice if the 68040 mmu worked, but most people get by without having it enabled. Complaining about it here is not going to make a bit of difference.
 
 Your lists of solutions isn't going to inspire anybody, it just makes you look bad.

[guest11527]

You cannot use an emulator because you've got perceived problems that you hate the only sane solution to.  

A non-working keyboard is not a sane solution, pardon me. If I have to run in circles to get the input I need, then that's "not working" for me. Once again, the thread is about "why emulators don't work for me", and yes, with the keyboard emulation as it is "it is not working for me". No more, no less.  

 Your lists of solutions isn't going to inspire anybody, it just makes you look bad.

Whatever you want to believe. At least I'm offering solutions, and it's not that these solutions come completely untested.

[guest11527]

No, there are other problems with this algorithm, too. Keyboard is used for more things than just typing text. For example think about keyboard shortcuts in a paint/music/cad/3d program. Or about commodity hotkeys. For these it is irrelevant what ASCII the key would produce when used in a text typing program/editor.

A shortcut like "CTRL ALT Q" should always remain on the Q key, even if on the host this sequence would produce the "@" key which on the Amiga keyboard may not be on the Q keq but somewhere else.

Look, it is all a matter of use cases. Apparently, the xx-UAE software was designed for gamers that require keyboard shortcuts placed on physical locations, and not for programming or typing of text or documenrs. I cannot write an email if @ is at a confusing location, and I cannot write a program if \ is at a confusing location. The keyboard definition as it stands is unsuitable for this purpose. The current keyboard definition is one reason, and a very prominent reason, why xxx-UAE is not a good solution for me. Like it or not, but that's really it. Apparently, my usecase hasn't been foreseen by the authors, or is not considered important or interesting, whatever it may be. But that doesn't make the situation *for me* any better. It is *for me* simply not usable the way it is.

[Thorham]

To Thomas Richter:

So, basically you're complaining about something that you can fix yourself, but won't, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that you would use.

Really, what a load of crap.

[guest11527]

To Thomas Richter:

So, basically you're complaining about something that you can fix yourself, but won't, because you don't want to spend time fixing something that you would use.

Really, what a load of crap.

No. A) I don't complain. I report. You may or not may the report, but this is what I have to say on the matter. I'm not trying to attack anyone by this. B) I don't want to spend time on this because I'm simply not interested enough for spending time on it. There are more important tasks I need to take care of. You again may not like this, but yes, that is what it is.  

Apparently, you seem to take this personal. I don't understand why. I'm reporting my experience, a experience you don't share, and you see this as something it isn't. I don't take the matter serious enough to take action. You seem to do, but you should understand that we then live in different worlds.  

This report doesn't require an action. Read it as you please, take action, or ignore it, whatever helps you. All I'm saying is "what I currently get in respect of emulation doesn't satisfy my needs". Full stop. The "need" isn't urgent enough to require any action, and it's so low in priority that I don't waste my time on it. If you want to invest your time, that's all good, I gave hints how to do that, how I approached the problem, where to find my solution, and to review it or implement or ignore it as you seem fit.

Thus, if you plan to do something, you're welcome to do, and that's what I'm able to do about it.

I don't understand why there is any need to turn this into a personal attack. But you should probably adjust your view on reality a little bit. Yes, there are really many things in my life that are more important than Amiga, and I'm rather sorry for you if that's not the case in your life.

Honestly, I don't like the style by which you approach me. What is this about? You have a different opinion? Fine then, be good about it. This is my personal view, my sole and only. Share it or don't. There were good hints in this thread, other solutions I haven't considered, and I may try in the future (and I haven't tried due to lack of time), but your "answer" is really the worst of it.