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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #149 from previous page: July 25, 2013, 12:21:11 PM »
Quote from: Hans_;742182
Seriously, even if Jens designed something like the A1-X1000, it would still cost a heap more than one of his accelerators sub-100 MHz accelerators.

What you call "an enormous price" is what you can expect designing a modern motherboard to cost.

The Pegasos and the Pegasos 2 was dead-cheap compared to the X1000, heck, if memory doesn't serve me wrong it was even cheaper than the Sam (while being more powerful, and several years earlier). Those designs were complex and full-blown motherboards.

Just like Jens/Individual Computers, Genesi/bPlan also has in-house competence. But the thing is - not that many years ago, Genesi offered the community to actually *pay for development* of a new PPC motherboard!

The end product would have been:

   - Flex form factor - MPC8610@1Ghz (or faster if it is economically feasable)
- 4x SATA 2 connectors
- 4x USB2 ports
- 2x Gigabit Ethernet ports
- Sound ports (Audio Out, Mic In)
- 1 PCI slot
- 1 PCI-e slot 1x
- 1 PCI-e slot 8x


The financing of the development would take place through bounties over at power2people.org, it would be 6 phases (IIRC), the result would be completely open sourced and community owned. The final cost of all stages would be $60.000 IIRC (or was it EUR? Doesn't really matter for the sake of the discussion), and this would also include a Freescale sponsored developer program with free boards donated to interesting development projects (like Genesi/Freescale has done on several occasions before).

IIRC the general opinion in the community was that this was way to expensive, few people chipped in. Yet it would only have taken ~20 people paying the X1000 end-user price to finance the entire development cost. This wasn't a charity project, it was something Genesi would "invoice" the community, because they didn't want to invest anymore in PPC themselves.

And the X1000? Well, "Trevor said that it cost over US$400,000 to develop the X1000."
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=36690&forum=2&start=80#685861

I see a difference!

And frankly, I am astonished that the plug wasn't pulled on this!

:confused:

(But I'm perhaps even more astonished that the Xorro/Xena is being done all over again!)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2013, 01:27:10 PM »
Quote from: utri007;742180

But there is a point, it would be perfectly possible to produce Sam440ep Flex level mobo and sell it less than 100€. It would require order minium 10000 mobos to get price that low. I belive that  440ep CPU is less than 15€


You're right in as much as you say you could get the 440 Flex mobo produced for less than 100 euros, but no way could it be sold for that.

You have to factor in:

Manufacturing cost
Hardware Development cost
Software Development cost
Profit (Acube aren't a charity)
Distribution cost
Taxes

Plus if they made 10000 of them it'd take years to sell out. The low demand for Amiga-like OSes isn't as much to do with prices as people think, otherwise MorphOS and particularly AROS users would massively outnumber AmigaOS 4 users.

Personally, I think 270 Euros for a Sam 440 Flex (the current price) is a good one, when you consider the quantities we're talking about.
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Offline gertsy

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2013, 02:04:28 PM »
Quote from: Blizz1220;742169
You're absolutely right and I should have posted in another thread ...
....
Amiga 4000 was most advanced thing on the general consumer market for it's price tag when it came out ...
....
I will stay with post like this one out of this thread from now ...


Why? its just a forum thread. Robust conversation is what it's all about.  We don't have to all agree.  How boring would that be.

Have your say Blizz1220 and if people like me don't agree just say "meh". Or "I disagree."

My pet hate is negative comments about people who are doers and creators. And in the absence of consistency I try to be consistent in defending them.  

I'm also defensive of people selling something for a price they consider marketable. Free commerce will sort it out in the end.  If it's too expensive no one will buy it. That's the real meaning of too expensive from a commercial perspective.  Not the one popularly used as a cover for "I can't afford it" or "I can't justify paying that much"

[Rocking up to Italian Walmart in a Ferrari, arrh made me laugh]
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 02:14:59 PM by gertsy »
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #152 on: July 25, 2013, 02:59:30 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;742189
Personally, I think 270 Euros for a Sam 440 Flex (the current price) is a good one

I agree that this price is acceptable, but the 667MHz "G2" CPU is *way* too weak and not worth it.

When the Pegasos 2 reached its EOL (7 years ago, time flies) its price was similar ($399 /~EUR €300), but with a 1GHz G4 that runs circles around that Sam. And most people consider the Peg2 to be a bit weak; the old G4 Mac's we use with MorphOS today is almost 2x the speed of the Peg2 G4, and this is where heavy web browsing and media playback starts becoming enjoyable. I have no personal experience of the G5's, but the situation improves even more of course.

I would actually consider paying up to €500 for a new PPC motherboard for MorphOS even today (a bit more for a system of course), but then it would have to show some improvement to what I already have, I'd expect a step up instead of a step down. I would at least expect it to play x.264 bitstreams in software/CPU in full HD (1080p) without any problems, and with the silence of a G4. Can it do that, then I'd be interested, even though €500 is a bit expensive, because then the performance would at least cover many of my non-professional everyday areas of use (casual Internet and media consumption), even if it's obviously still going to be severely under-powered compared to real 2013 desktop HW. If not, I'd rather stick with the much cheaper G4 Mac HW that at least plays most 720p bitstreams (not really interested in those hot and bulky G5's).

Those "G2" class CPU's struggle with DVD resolution MPEG-2 streams, and I see no reason to buy something like that at all in 2013, no matter the price. It wouldn't just be a step back, it would be *several* steps back (or far more than a decade back in time, in performance comparison). In that class you can still get a $99/€75 Efika 5k2 brand new from Directron.com. It's a little slower than the Sam (400MHz instead of 667MHz), it has some oddities, quirks and limitations, and it's not as expandable, but at $99 the question is if it's not a better buy? I mean, those slow "G2's" aren't really useful anyway, so...
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 03:09:34 PM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline spirantho

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2013, 04:42:09 PM »
@takemehomegrandma

Actually, with reservations - I mostly agree with you.
I don't agree the 667MHz CPU is too weak, because my Sam440ep is a 600MHz machine and is great. Not going to win any speed demon awards, but I don't want it to - nor do I want to play 3D games (got a PS3 for that) or highdef videos (PS3 does that too).

But, that aside, we all wish that we could go back to those times. Back in those days, Apple were pumping cash into the PowerPC which meant that G4 CPUs could be had easily and cheaply, especially when the G5 came out. Hence the price of the Peg II was much lower considering the power it was.
The problem is that these days, PowerPC is still going and still healthy, but most of the development is in embedded CPUs, which require less power - hence the ones which do have the power (e.g. PA6T) cost an arm and a leg, and possibly your first-born child.

This is the conundrum we're faced with - technologically we were in a better position in 2006 because we could hang on the coat-tails of Apple. We can't do that any more, so we now have to wait for technology to catch up with the power of Apple CPUs. For those of us who bought a G4 machine, anything less than a lump of dough is going to be a downgrade, which is unfortunate but unavoidable... at least for now. As technology of embedded CPUs catches up, we should eventually surpass G4 class CPUs at a reasonable price.
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Offline vox

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2013, 05:41:59 PM »
Quote from: Blizz1220;742154
No I don't think they are that much different ...
Motherboards based on say Sis 745 chipset or on Intel 945GZ chipset
are all the same even if they are produced by Asus,MSI,Epox,IBM or
anyone else ... PPC Chipsets in those old Macs are almost the same
thing as chipset used in AmigaOne x1000 ...


No, they aren`t. In simple words Macs are mostly using IDE, DDR, AGP while X1000 uses SATA2, DDR2, PCI-E x16, in PC terms its about 2 generations ahead. Same goes for SOCCs Acube used. They might be "G2-G3 CPU class" (after all its embbeded sys) but at least I/O is faster. That gives quite better overall experience then with older boards, and tests prove that. In pure CPU only benchmarks both AMCC SOCs used by Acube and PA Semi perform poor. But old Macs kind of remind me of old PCs logic where CPU would be "muscles" on high frequency but rest of I/O components and RAM would be decreasing the performance, crippling overall experience.

Off course, this is from today point of view, at time those Macs were new, that were the high end standards.
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Offline Blizz1220

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2013, 05:58:51 PM »
Quote from: vox;742214
No, they aren`t. In simple words Macs are mostly using IDE, DDR, AGP while X1000 uses SATA2, DDR2, PCI-E x16, in PC terms its about 2 generations ahead. Same goes for SOCCs Acube used. They might be "G2-G3 CPU class" (after all its embbeded sys) but at least I/O is faster. That gives quite better overall experience then with older boards, and tests prove that. In pure CPU only benchmarks both AMCC SOCs used by Acube and PA Semi perform poor. But old Macs kind of remind me of old PCs logic where CPU would be "muscles" on high frequency but rest of I/O components and RAM would be decreasing the performance, crippling overall experience.

Off course, this is from today point of view, at time those Macs were new, that were the high end standards.

G5 from 2005 (codename "Cypher") had Dual core , up to 16 Gb of DDR2 ,
PCI-E x16 (_not so sure_ too lazy to check) and USB 2.0 ...

And you can get it for extra cheap price right now ...
 

Offline vox

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #156 on: July 25, 2013, 06:27:17 PM »
Quote from: Blizz1220;742216
G5 from 2005 (codename "Cypher") had Dual core , up to 16 Gb of DDR2 ,
PCI-E x16 (_not so sure_ too lazy to check) and USB 2.0 ...

And you can get it for extra cheap price right now ...

True for CPU, but I don`t see Mac G5 or MacPro PPC with such a CPU and bus. So I don`t see how you could get it and what would you do with it in MOS that doesn`t support PCI-E cards at all.
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Offline Blizz1220

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #157 on: July 25, 2013, 07:02:14 PM »
Quote from: vox;742218
True for CPU, but I don`t see Mac G5 or MacPro PPC with such a CPU and bus. So I don`t see how you could get it and what would you do with it in MOS that doesn`t support PCI-E cards at all.

This should be posted in "AEon strategy" thread as it is comparing
apples and water melons but still is somehow related :

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html
 

Offline vox

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #158 on: July 25, 2013, 07:03:45 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;742166
ad.1:the development costs for such a board are considerable, no doubt, therefore it should be avoided. and in case it must be developed it should be best developed by genuine amiga-related companies like individual computers or perhaps acube (although it seems acube designs are based on reference designs anyway, correct me if im wrong). as someone else pointed out, "supporting further development" argument is not valid in this case. paing high prices we support uk military companies, not "amiga". thats where money goes (as example: the rediculous price of remaining stock of pasemi cpu).

Individual computers, to best of my knowledge, never developed any PPC board. Acube did, but its a reference design around SOCC, so Varisys was a good and maybe only choice. We pay all the steps to the end price, but I am glad to see Acube and A-EON use their profits to develop newer and better models (SAM 460/X2000) so I see "further development" valid. Profit margin may be higher due to many risks (small quantities, their own investment in production) but I like to see profit used to keep it running.


Quote
 instead hyperion has problems to deliver driver support for its own  dedicated hardware and this task has been taken over by hardware vendors  (trevor admits it). in all due respect to hans readeon drivers, i cant  believe driver development is so much harder for os4 devs than for aros  team, lat alone morphos.

I suppose driver model isn`t the same, and quite well known people like Hans and Layle took considerable time to get the job done. Its different when support comes from vendor and when people have to get everything on their own. In MOS Case, OS development team do the support and Hyperion has made that (bad!) policy of hw manufacturer being responsible, which agains narrows possible partners.

Quote
as soon as commodore amiga has lost its price/performance advantage and  has been left behind the wide audience left, and even hardcore fans left  one by one. trying to justify current prices by this failed politics  that has lead to the decline of genuine amiga must be taken as a cruel  joke, sorry. it only suggests it all being a dead end anyway.
.[/QUOTE]

No, people used to buy expensive PPC cards quite a lot, but when all software companies abandoned shrinking market, that was a complete end for most of. I will here remind people that Commodore also planed to ditch Amiga (68k, AGA, AmigaOS) completely with AAA project anyway and go for ... Windows NT if I recall it good. So death of Commodore was kind of good thing, even it meant further struggle, that has brought OS 3.5-OS 4.1
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #159 on: July 25, 2013, 07:30:07 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;741696
Your comparison is flawed as the difference is that a few weeks ago I bought a cute 12" iBook G4/1.33Ghz with shipping included for 80€, that's pocket money I can use to "play" with my favourite OS and no wife/gf will complain about that. Do you think spending 80€ is the same as spending 1000, 2000 or 3000€.

I've got you beat on that one.
My 1.42 GHz iBook only set me back $70.
And it works quite well.
Its just painful that the OS key is in the highest tier (meaning I almost have to spend twice as much for the license).

Quote from: Crumb;741696
Trevor efforts are important but keep in mind a RadeonHD driver is  almost useless without 3D&Video acceleration (read: there's no much  noticeable difference in 2D with let's say a R9800).

Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.
I was exchanging e-mail with Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) for months before it was commonly known who A-eon's partner was.
Trevor picked the perfect guys to lead this.

Quote from: Crumb;741696
All in all. I don't think it's bashing, it's frustration from the Amiga  community seeing that OS4.x Team is heading their favourite OS to  disaster.

I try not to bash OS4.
And I still get comments like "we're only developing for 'real' AmigaOS".
What everyone seems to forget is that all the MorphOS developers are former AmigaOS developers.
Some of the best, as a matter of fact.

This fiction that pride in your creation has led to a "red vs. blue war" is ridiculous.

All it done is chase the knowledgeable MorphOS supporters off this site.

Anyone notice that Piru doesn't post here anymore?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Blizz1220

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #160 on: July 25, 2013, 07:35:09 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;742224
Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.

That would explain a lot ...
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Ease off bashing AmigaONE X1000?
« Reply #161 on: July 25, 2013, 07:35:56 PM »
Quote from: vox;742218
True for CPU, but I don`t see Mac G5 or MacPro PPC with such a CPU and bus. So I don`t see how you could get it and what would you do with it in MOS that doesn`t support PCI-E cards at all.

Yet...
And a SAM460 port was announced awhile ago.
Still, the most powerful PCI-e card for the G5 is only an X1900GT.
So, maybe we should be supporting the further development of supported hardware.

Right now, the G5 port only supports 1 GB of memory, and there seem to be some bugs in the Radeon 9800 driver.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline nicholas

Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #162 on: July 25, 2013, 07:36:13 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;742224
I've got you beat on that one.
My 1.42 GHz iBook only set me back $70.
And it works quite well.
Its just painful that the OS key is in the highest tier (meaning I almost have to spend twice as much for the license).



Trevor's little vanity project is pretty impressive.
He took the ACK Systems/Ainc. specs and ran with them finding a partner that could actually obtain the CPUs and build the systems.
I was exchanging e-mail with Paul Gentle (@ Varisys) for months before it was commonly known who A-eon's partner was.
Trevor picked the perfect guys to lead this.



I try not to bash OS4.
And I still get comments like "we're only developing for 'real' AmigaOS".
What everyone seems to forget is that all the MorphOS developers are former AmigaOS developers.
Some of the best, as a matter of fact.

This fiction that pride in your creation has led to a "red vs. blue war" is ridiculous.

All it done is chase the knowledgeable MorphOS supporters off this site.

Anyone notice that Piru doesn't post here anymore?


+1

While we are on the subject, can someone remind me who wrote OS4 and what they did for the Amiga scene before that?

Then we can list the MorphOS developers and what they did previously for the Amiga scene.

It should make for interesting reading no?
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #163 on: July 25, 2013, 07:37:58 PM »
Quote from: Blizz1220;742227
That would explain a lot ...

It actually does. Paul was never in favor of the PA6T.
He recommended Freescale's Qorlq line to me.
And those products have seen steady development since.

Quote from: nicholas;742229
+1

While we are on the subject, can someone remind me who wrote OS4 and what they did for the Amiga scene before that?

Then we can list the MorphOS developers and what they did previously for the Amiga scene.

It should make for interesting reading no?

Maybe we ought to compile that list.

My 1st vote for one persistent man would be Frank Mariak, the co-developer of the CyberGraph API (and still working on MorphOS video drivers).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 07:52:54 PM by Iggy »
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Offline vox

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Re: Ease off bashing Amiga x1000?
« Reply #164 on: July 25, 2013, 07:46:36 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;742186

Just like Jens/Individual Computers, Genesi/bPlan also has in-house competence. But the thing is - not that many years ago, Genesi offered the community to actually *pay for development* of a new PPC motherboard!

The end product would have been:
   - Flex form factor - MPC8610@1Ghz (or faster if it is economically feasable)
- 4x SATA 2 connectors
- 4x USB2 ports
- 2x Gigabit Ethernet ports
- Sound ports (Audio Out, Mic In)
- 1 PCI slot
- 1 PCI-e slot 1x
- 1 PCI-e slot 8x
The financing of the development would take place through bounties over at power2people.org, it would be 6 phases (IIRC), the result would be completely open sourced and community owned. The final cost of all stages would be $60.000 IIRC (or was it EUR? Doesn't really matter for the sake of the discussion), and this would also include a Freescale sponsored developer program with free boards donated to interesting development projects (like Genesi/Freescale has done on several occasions before).

IIRC the general opinion in the community was that this was way to expensive, few people chipped in. Yet it would only have taken ~20 people paying the X1000 end-user price to finance the entire development cost. This wasn't a charity project, it was something Genesi would "invoice" the community, because they didn't want to invest anymore in PPC themselves.

Looks nice. But seems it never went even to development board
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/43

If it was presented to OS4 as viable platform, could saved the day.
But its still vapor.

If you could ensure both MOS team and OS4 team agreement to do OS ports and pushed the bounty more to both camps, it could succeed, hence would be no X1000. But now there is no this board, and there is X1000.

Quote
(But I'm perhaps even more astonished that the Xorro/Xena is being done all over again!)

Xena is 50$ chip and Xorro is modified PCI-E. It might yet prove useful, and open some interesting space to do something no board has done before. But I dislike propaganda it`s a transputer slot etc. that existed in early days.

Quote from: takemehomegrandma;742179
"the A1-X1000 complexity" is a problem, not a solution!

Well, A1-X1000 is a solution to a problem of no high end Amiga.
Detailed analysis of this discussion would show:

a) There are people that hate they can`t get X1000 but would not get any other OS4 model (e.g SAMs or used Peg2/Old A1). Message to them is: I have been preparing 2 years financial and still will take loan of 5 years to complete it, paying higher import taxes and interests then you while I doubt you have lower wage then me. So it is possible, if you really want it.

b) There are people that want cheaper entry system, but they don`t find SAM 440 good offer for 250 euros. If we could enmass them to 600 personas, we could get lower price. Waiting for way better system for that money might not materialize soon - 100 euros is just OS4 license. Efika does cost 99$ but add 90 euros for MorphOS on top of it and you get less efficient system unexpandable at all for almost the same amounth.

c) There are people that bash X1000 just because they can, since they anyway have cheap and fast PPC Mac. Good for them, but again, I will ask the gents why they haven`t payed that PPC Mac when it was new and costed similarly? One day when X1000 becomes what PPC Macs are now it might be affordable too ...
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