Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: amigakit on November 27, 2014, 03:34:28 PM
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A-EON Technology is pleased to announce (http://www.a-eon.biz/?news=27-11-2014) that it has taken over the development of Personal Paint from Cloanto. The two companies had already started to cooperate in 2014 which resulted in the release of Personal Paint 7.2 and 7.3 These are the first new versions for several years, with the latest native versions available now on AMIStore (http://www.amistore.net) for both AmigaOS 4.1 and AmigaOS 3.x.
As part of the agreement A-EON will exclusively develop and own all future AmigaOS versions of Personal Paint (including possible MorphOS and AROS ports). Additionally, A-EON and Cloanto will share joint ownership of Classic Amiga versions up to version 7.2, while Cloanto may continue to work on future non-Amiga versions.
Matthew Leaman, A-EON Managing Director, said, "A-EON Technology is proud to conclude this agreement with Cloanto. Personal Paint always had a strong following with Classic Amiga users and we are excited to drive it's future." Trevor Dickinson, A-EON’s co-founder added, "I've been an avid user of Personal Paint for many years. It became the leading easy-to-use Amiga program for bitmapped graphics and animation and was one of the first to support AGA and RTG graphics. These advanced features allowed Personal Paint to replace Deluxe Paint in Commodore's Amiga computer software bundles."
Personal Paint was the first commercial Amiga graphics program to break the 2Mb chip RAM barrier and to support PowerPC CPUs. However, it also included numerous other unique features which made it a favourite with many Classic Amiga owners. These included: professional colour reduction and merge, multiple brushes, filters, animation, file format plugins and stereograms together with PostScript and 24-bit printing. The constant reinvention of the possible applications of animated GIFs (also thanks to the expiration of related patents) helped drive continued demand for Personal Paint's exceptional support for palette based modes and optimised GIF code.
Cloanto's Michael C. Battilana commented on the transfer, "I am delighted to see future Amiga Personal Paint development efforts in the hands of an extremely motivated and talented team. I would also like to pay special thanks to Trevor. Without his generous commitment, the Amiga community wouldn't be as alive and kicking as it still is today."
PDF Press Release (http://a-eon.biz/PDF/News_Release_Personal_Paint.pdf)
The new Personal Paint 7.3 Classic (and PPC) version has the following features:-
● Works with the Classic AmigaOS and AmigaOS4.1 and and emulation under WinUAE and Amiga Forever
● Totally integrated with the AmigaOS Workbench
● Supports AmigaOS screen dragging
● Smoother interaction with the OS4 screen dragging system
● True colour animation frame thumbs in the StoryBoard window
● High resolution gadget imagery and thin borders style GUI option for a more modern look
● 9 new built in brush shapes
● 100 new Custom Brushes
● Pressure sensitive drawing
● Dithered transparency
● New Airbrush Linemode
● Extended paint functionality with image processing tool
The older 7.1c archive will be available to download from the official PPaint website:
http://ppaint.amistore.net
This domain is still in the process of propogating with DNS servers around the world so it wont be available everywhere until during the next 24-48 hours
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(http://amigaworld.net/images/subject/icon14.gif) Thumbs up!
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Awesome!
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A-EON takes over Personal Paint development, full version removed from Aminet (http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-11-00053-EN.html)
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A-EON takes over Personal Paint development, full version removed from Aminet (http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-11-00053-EN.html)
Is that mean Personal Paint can not be distributed with "Classic WB Packs" ?
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great news!:pint:
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A-EON seem to have their fingers in a lot of pies, hardware development, Amiga community websites and now application development. I wonder if they'll be contracting out future software development or doing it in-house, I suspect the former.
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Sign me up for a MorphOS version!
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Where can I find out more information about the the 7.3 version of Personal Paint for the Classic OS?
I searched online and could find no feature list, nor anywhere that sold it. The Amistore software linked to on the A-EON site above can only be installed on OS4.
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Kind of strange to remove it from Aminet. Why not just add so many features to the next version that no one would want to use the older free version anymore?
Anyhow, I second the notion for a MorphOS update! Would like to see a little X86 AROS love too.
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Got to admit I'm getting a little concerned about just how much A-Eon has been acquiring lately...
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Why concerned?
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No concerns about acquisitions. I would much rather have someone take ownership and resume development of abandoned software.
Not so sure about removing it from Aminet though.
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It was probably removed from Aminet because v7.1 was competing with the forthcoming v7.3
To make it short: v7.3 has probably no remarkable new feature to make it viable as a product having its former version free. Most likely just a PPC port with minor fixes.
Even v7.1 was not the best in its day, I fail to see how could a "remastered" version be better, but cultist will adore and praise and others will just be dissapointed.
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@Gulliver
I think you missed the press release above:
The new Personal Paint 7.3 Classic (and PPC) version has the following features:-
● Works with the Classic AmigaOS and AmigaOS4.1 and and emulation under WinUAE and Amiga Forever
● Totally integrated with the AmigaOS Workbench
● Supports AmigaOS screen dragging
● Smoother interaction with the OS4 screen dragging system
● True colour animation frame thumbs in the StoryBoard window
● High resolution gadget imagery and thin borders style GUI option for a more modern look
● 9 new built in brush shapes
● 100 new Custom Brushes
● Pressure sensitive drawing
● Dithered transparency
● New Airbrush Linemode
● Extended paint functionality with image processing tool
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Where can I find out more information about the the 7.3 version of Personal Paint for the Classic OS?
I searched online and could find no feature list, nor anywhere that sold it. The Amistore software linked to on the A-EON site above can only be installed on OS4.
As already posted, 68K users will be able to purchase the latest 7.3 upgrade via Amistore. However, since AMIStore is not yet available for Classic users we are arranging for AmigaKit to stock a new retail version and we will make a Digital ADF Classic AmigaOS version available on the Amistore website. (Details to be provided).
Earlier Classic versions of Personal Paint will be available to download free of charge from the A-EON server.
TrevorD
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Is this better than Brilliance 2?
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@Gulliver
I think you missed the press release above:
The new Personal Paint 7.3 Classic (and PPC) version has the following features:-
● Works with the Classic AmigaOS and AmigaOS4.1 and and emulation under WinUAE and Amiga Forever
● Totally integrated with the AmigaOS Workbench
● Supports AmigaOS screen dragging
● Smoother interaction with the OS4 screen dragging system
● True colour animation frame thumbs in the StoryBoard window
● High resolution gadget imagery and thin borders style GUI option for a more modern look
● 9 new built in brush shapes
● 100 new Custom Brushes
● Pressure sensitive drawing
● Dithered transparency
● New Airbrush Linemode
● Extended paint functionality with image processing tool
Items 1 and 2 can hardly be considered a feature.
Item 4 is only applicable to OS4 not Classic
And then you have what can be considered features: Items 5-12
Is it worth the upgrade?
My point still stands :)
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If you are user that extensively works with PPaint on a regular basis, then the drawing tablet support and 100x new brushes, new image processing tools, new GUI etc etc would all be most welcome. It is subjective to the user.
From my point of view, as a Classic Amiga user, when an application that hasn't been updated in a decade has fresh development put into it, I welcome the investment.
Actions speak louder than words: lets see where A-EON goes with PPaint project in the next year :)
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If you are user that extensively works with PPaint on a regular basis, then the drawing tablet support and 100x new brushes, new image processing tools, new GUI etc etc would all be most welcome. It is subjective to the user.
From my point of view, as a Classic Amiga user, when an application that hasn't been updated in a decade has fresh development put into it, I welcome the investment.
Actions speak louder than words: lets see where A-EON goes with PPaint project in the next year :)
Fair enough. Lets wait and see :)
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Can we make feature requests?
- onion-skin light table style animation editor (as in DPaint)
- ability to rotate and move animated brushes in Z-axis.
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If I were a regular user of software, I'd much rather lose the ability to get it for free than have it stagnate and get old. I can't help but feel that if we want development of programs to continue or restart, we have to get rid of this "I want it but don't want to pay for it" psyche which seems so prevalent in Amiga circles these days.
I know it's nice to have free software, but I think it's nicer to have actively developed software at a small cost.
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If I were a regular user of software, I'd much rather lose the ability to get it for free than have it stagnate and get old.
this software is already old. adding some eye candy to it will not change this fact nor its value much.
can't help but feel that if we want development of programs to continue or restart, we have to get rid of this "I want it but don't want to pay for it" psyche which seems so prevalent in Amiga circles these days.
there is no user base to sustain commercial developments. i wonder what you are expecting the users to do, if you get rid of this what you call psyche and start charge users for what has previously been available for free..
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adding some eye candy to it will not change this fact nor its value much
The development put into PPaint is certainly not superficial or trivial. The entire code had to be modernised to be recompiled which was a very large task before any of the new features were added. This is just the start of development..
@ral-clan
Any feedback is most welcome for new features and suggestions for future development.
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A-EON seem to have their fingers in a lot of pies, hardware development, Amiga community websites and now application development. I wonder if they'll be contracting out future software development or doing it in-house, I suspect the former.
Is your statement above meant as a positive comment on their dedication to our community, or a negative accusation? I can't tell, but since there are a few other negative comments in this thread, it makes your comment also appear as a negative commentary on their efforts.
Not everyone will agree with all of the decisions made by A-Eon, and they don't have to, but what I don't understand is any complaints about A-Eon's efforts and involvement in the community. Even if you don't agree with some of their choices, I think that all users should appreciate the fact that A-Eon is trying to make our community better, by investing time and money in many different aspects of our community.
I happen to agree that the highest priority to keep our community alive is the need for more and better software, now that all 4 camps appear to have sufficient hardware choices to run which ever OS you prefer. If people don't agree with A-Eon's choices to help spur new development, and support existing programmers, then I wish they would suggest productive alternatives, instead of just spewing out negative criticism all the time, with no ideas of their own on what would be a better way to help create new software, or support our existing programmers.
Your comment may be completely neutral and innocent. Some of our other members can't claim neutrality or innocence for their obvious attempts to tear down, or attack the efforts of well meaning supporters of our community. You don't have to agree with everything that anyone else does or proposes, but constructive criticism, or alternative productive suggestions are better, and actual actions to make things better are best.
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Can we make feature requests?
- onion-skin light table style animation editor (as in DPaint)
Currently there is a storyboard feature, but not onion skinning but the mode promotion to 24bit opens up possibilities under AmigaOS4.
- ability to rotate and move animated brushes in Z-axis.
That one easier, this already exists.
Animbrushes can be rotated, and scaled (which is the 2D equivalent of Z axis motion).
There is a rexx script to handle animation a long pasth etc. which gives direct equivalents to some of the DPaint features people complain is missing.
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Exactly when will this be available? As long as it's not grossly expensive, I will support this, if I can buy it.
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>but what I don't understand is any complaints about A-Eon's efforts and involvement in the community.
If the new version is so much better as is claimed then the old version is no threat to it. Preemptively removing stuff from these archives without warning is disrespectful and disruptive to the community.
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I feel we need to have some one to rally around.
I think it is worth the risk.
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however the rest of us have to suffer due to the insatiable greed of A-EON. I wish they would leave our Amiga community alone and go sell crap to Mac users instead [...] their nefarious destruction of the community I will be sure to pirate it instead now.
(http://www.viralfiesta.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/tinfoil2.jpg)
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@Minuous
As posted on the A-EON Facebook page.
Earlier this year we commissioned Andy Broad to complete the first update to Personal Paint for many years. He did an excellent job which resulted in a new 68k version Personal Paint 7.2 which Cloanto bundled with its latest Amiga Forever release.
As part of the agreement with Andy, he also worked on a major upgrade of Personal Paint for both the Classic AmigaOS and a native PPC version for AmigaOS 4.1. These are now available to purchase through AMIstore.
The Personal Paint 7.3 Classic versions has the following features:-
● Works with the Classic AmigaOS and AmigaOS4.1 and and emulation under WinUAE and Amiga Forever
● Totally integrated with the AmigaOS Workbench
● Supports AmigaOS screen dragging
● Smoother interaction with the OS4 screen dragging system
● True colour animation frame thumbs in the StoryBoard window
● High resolution gadget imagery and thin borders style GUI option for a more modern look
● 9 new built in brush shapes
● 100 new Custom Brushes
● Pressure sensitive drawing
● Dithered transparency
● New Airbrush Linemode
● Extended paint functionality with image processing tool
Note: The native PPC version has similar features.
Our acquisition of the rights to Personal Paint means that we will continue with its ongoing development in the future. Also we will continue to make historical version of Personal Paint available for free download and that includes the version of PPaint that was removed from Aminet.
TrevorD
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@TrevorDick:
Yes, that is good news about the ongoing development of it.
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@Minuous
As posted on the A-EON Facebook page.
.......
Our acquisition of the rights to Personal Paint means that we will continue with its ongoing development in the future. Also we will continue to make historical version of Personal Paint available for free download and that includes the version of PPaint that Cloanto removed from Aminet.
TrevorD
Record set straight!
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@gertsy:
I read the official press release PDF, and the announcement at http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-11-00053-EN.html, neither of which mentioned that it was Cloanto's fault. I avoid Facebook wherever possible, as do many others. So any important information such as this would be better to be in the press release.
In fact, I'm not sure how clean A-EON's hands actually are in this matter. The amiga-news announcement says "At the request of the copyright holders, the full version of Personal Paint, which had been released on Aminet 17 years ago, has been removed from the archive yesterday." The press release says "A-EON and Cloanto will share joint ownership of Classic Amiga versions up to V7.2". Therefore, it seems they are both responsible for this. And it was A-EON that amiga-news asked for an explanation of the removal.
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If I were a regular user of software, I'd much rather lose the ability to get it for free than have it stagnate and get old. I can't help but feel that if we want development of programs to continue or restart, we have to get rid of this "I want it but don't want to pay for it" psyche which seems so prevalent in Amiga circles these days.
I know it's nice to have free software, but I think it's nicer to have actively developed software at a small cost.
+1
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Any feedback is most welcome for new features and suggestions for future development.
Layers :)
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@trevordick:
Yes, that is good news about the ongoing development of it.
I had thought it was A-EON behind the removal, but my apologies to A-EON/Amigakit if Cloanto are actually the ones to blame. They must have done this to prop up sales of Amiga Forever. I already had a very low opinion of Cloanto's conduct, this just confirms that.
I can't believe what I am reading here. I must be mistaken in thinking that you are the programmer who I donated a G4 MacMini MorphOS system to years ago, with the hopes that you would produce some useful software, or at least port some existing software of your own, or others, to the MorphOS platform.
I would think that as a programmer, you would support the right of other programmers to do what ever they want with their code, including trying to sell it in any way that they choose.
And then to accuse A-Eon of being greedy, or for destroying our community just makes me furious! I doubt that Trevor Dickinson will ever make a single penny of profit from our community, after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing new hardware for those interested in running AmigaOS4.x on PPC computers, plus investing time and money in so many other ways to support programmers and others in our community, without even asking for any kind of return on his investments or donations in MOST cases. If Trevor did not have such a thick skin and if he were not so dedicated to all parts of the Amiga community, unfounded attacks such as yours could have caused him to leave, or stop investing his time and money into our community.
I believe that even the members of our community who dislike the products currently available from A-Eon, or who dislike the decisions they have made on the direction they support AmigaOS4.x users (which is not the only part of the community they support), would agree that Trevor and A-Eon deserve some credit for at least attempting to do something, while so many others just complain and do nothing.
It is people who act like you just did Minuous, who make me sick, and wonder why anyone would act that way. Like his products and services or not, and agree or disagree with his decisions on how to support our community, what gives you the right to ask him to leave our community and to accuse him falsely, as you have done? You obviously don't know much of anything about the man! I don't always agree with all of his decisions, but I have deep respect for his commitment and huge generosity toward so many different parts of our community. I have lost 100% of the respect I used to have for you Minuous.
Moderators, please edit out anything I have written in anger that is not appropriate, or has broken any of our site rules (though I don't think I have). :angry:
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I think this is great. Don't know if I will have need for it, but the idea of further development, like the remakes of the classic games etc. is a positive move. Although a MOS version would be nice. Good luck . . .
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The new Personal Paint was one of my first buys from the AMIstore.net site; I have used it for years and was happy to see it brought formally into the OS4.1 world.
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Is your statement above meant as a positive comment on their dedication to our community, or a negative accusation? I can't tell, but since there are a few other negative comments in this thread, it makes your comment also appear as a negative commentary on their efforts.
Not everyone will agree with all of the decisions made by A-Eon, and they don't have to, but what I don't understand is any complaints about A-Eon's efforts and involvement in the community. Even if you don't agree with some of their choices, I think that all users should appreciate the fact that A-Eon is trying to make our community better, by investing time and money in many different aspects of our community.
I happen to agree that the highest priority to keep our community alive is the need for more and better software, now that all 4 camps appear to have sufficient hardware choices to run which ever OS you prefer. If people don't agree with A-Eon's choices to help spur new development, and support existing programmers, then I wish they would suggest productive alternatives, instead of just spewing out negative criticism all the time, with no ideas of their own on what would be a better way to help create new software, or support our existing programmers.
Your comment may be completely neutral and innocent. Some of our other members can't claim neutrality or innocence for their obvious attempts to tear down, or attack the efforts of well meaning supporters of our community. You don't have to agree with everything that anyone else does or proposes, but constructive criticism, or alternative productive suggestions are better, and actual actions to make things better are best.
then a simply counterquestion... why removing old versions, why trying to control everything?
Another question: what would the same people that are now cheering and high-fiving say if someone (with lots of money) would support MorphOS and would have done the same what they are now doing? Pascal told that when he asked to buy amigaworld that he got bashed by the same people now cheering. But anyway the online "NG" community is not representing "the community", people you meet in real (except perhaps amiwest). They (Amigakit + A-eon) seem to try to imitate Apple now but there is no Steve Jobs so it will not work. But at least they are already using every chance to successfully polarize.
A sad development :(
I can only say nothing comes with a price. Apple is heavy polarizing and are paying the price now because many people dislike the company and will not buy their products. Copying Apple creates the same effect in the amiga community now (and I am not the only person who thinks that way people should look on other forums and not only in certain forums that make a misleading impression).
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Pascal told that when he asked to buy amigaworld
First I ever heard of that.
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I can't believe what I am reading here. I must be mistaken in thinking that you are the programmer who I donated a G4 MacMini MorphOS system to years ago, with the hopes that you would produce some useful software, or at least port some existing software of your own, or others, to the MorphOS platform.
I would think that as a programmer, you would support the right of other programmers to do what ever they want with their code, including trying to sell it in any way that they choose.
And then to accuse A-Eon of being greedy, or for destroying our community just makes me furious! I doubt that Trevor Dickinson will ever make a single penny of profit from our community, after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing new hardware for those interested in running AmigaOS4.x on PPC computers, plus investing time and money in so many other ways to support programmers and others in our community, without even asking for any kind of return on his investments or donations in MOST cases. If Trevor did not have such a thick skin and if he were not so dedicated to all parts of the Amiga community, unfounded attacks such as yours could have caused him to leave, or stop investing his time and money into our community.
I believe that even the members of our community who dislike the products currently available from A-Eon, or who dislike the decisions they have made on the direction they support AmigaOS4.x users (which is not the only part of the community they support), would agree that Trevor and A-Eon deserve some credit for at least attempting to do something, while so many others just complain and do nothing.
It is people who act like you just did Minuous, who make me sick, and wonder why anyone would act that way. Like his products and services or not, and agree or disagree with his decisions on how to support our community, what gives you the right to ask him to leave our community and to accuse him falsely, as you have done? You obviously don't know much of anything about the man! I don't always agree with all of his decisions, but I have deep respect for his commitment and huge generosity toward so many different parts of our community. I have lost 100% of the respect I used to have for you Minuous.
Moderators, please edit out anything I have written in anger that is not appropriate, or has broken any of our site rules (though I don't think I have). :angry:
You are too often on amiga.org and amigaworld.net
On both sites most people with different views have left and only certain people are left. I do not say the announcement that it will be available for free is wrong but I say they are at least not honest. They are always talking about the "community", that they just bought forum sites for the community only altruistic and at the same time clearly using their money for economic interests. They should at least admit that and not only marketing blabla. If you read the reactions outside the tiny AmigaOS world (f.e. german sites) the reactions are very different. Both Cloanto and Aeonkit have not done them any favor by it. They seem to have lost understanding of the community.
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First I ever heard of that.
He wrote that he asked but got harsh reactions. The people of a certain camp are obviously measuring different depending on where you are from. But that is not really new.
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I find it very good that the software is continued to be devleoped.
I find it very good that a guy like Andy is doing this
I also find it very good that he gets money for it.
I find it strange to old releases from Aminet are removed.
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Awesome news. Good to finally see less talk and more action in the Amiga world.
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He wrote that he asked but got harsh reactions. The people of a certain camp are obviously measuring different depending on where you are from. But that is not really new.
If you react to harsh reactions everytime you want to get things done, you will be paralyzed. Thats said; Pascal is very active and doing alot of good work. I think its better to focus on the good aspects of developments on the different platforms, instead of trying to villify the "others".
You say "camps", but from where Im sitting, every socalled "camp" got their "fundamentalists" that see no flaws in their design or arguments.
"AOS supporters" are no better or worse in that respect.
People have commented up thru the years about lack of software, hardware and developments/updates. I think it has been shown so far that hard cash has helped accelerate the developments on all those aspects. Ill grant you that the hardware platform is quite/very expensive, but for those that doesnt want to go that route, there is emulation or other platforms.
I see people say Personal Paint is old and worthless, but still they are up in arms about its removal. Everything has to be free it seems. No wonder developers left/are leaving.
@wawzon "there is no user base to sustain commercial developments. i wonder what you are expecting the users to do, if you get rid of this what you call psyche and start charge users for what has previously been available for free.."
Then you could flip it around; maybe there are no userbase because there have been no updates or developments for decades? Maybe the reason for this is the prevailent attitude that everything have to be free shunning away the developers? The "free lunch" approach has been attempted for decades and failed, so I dont see the big problem with letting AeonKit try their approach.
Looking at Aminet and OSdepot; there are so many programs freely available I dont really understand why people bounces off the walls for the removal of a few; with the intent to update and develop them.
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If you react to harsh reactions everytime you want to get things done, you will be paralyzed. Thats said; Pascal is very active and doing alot of good work. I think its better to focus on the good aspects of developments on the different platforms, instead of trying to villify the "others".
You say "camps", but from where Im sitting, every socalled "camp" got their "fundamentalists" that see no flaws in their design or arguments.
"AOS supporters" are no better or worse in that respect.
People have commented up thru the years about lack of software, hardware and developments/updates. I think it has been shown so far that hard cash has helped accelerate the developments on all those aspects. Ill grant you that the hardware platform is quite/very expensive, but for those that doesnt want to go that route, there is emulation or other platforms.
I see people say Personal Paint is old and worthless, but still they are up in arms about its removal. Everything has to be free it seems. No wonder developers left/are leaving.
@wawzon "there is no user base to sustain commercial developments. i wonder what you are expecting the users to do, if you get rid of this what you call psyche and start charge users for what has previously been available for free.."
Then you could flip it around; maybe there are no userbase because there have been no updates or developments for decades? Maybe the reason for this is the prevailent attitude that everything have to be free shunning away the developers? The "free lunch" approach has been attempted for decades and failed, so I dont see the big problem with letting AeonKit try their approach.
Looking at Aminet and OSdepot; there are so many programs freely available I dont really understand why people bounces off the walls for the removal of a few; with the intent to update and develop them.
Again nobody seems to want to answer the simple question, just dancing around with lots of words
Why removing it? Three words and a very simple and understandable question. I have not heard any real explanation just excuses or people saying not a problem but no answer...
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Just to copy what Severin said on AW.net
That is not a problem, it is the copyright owners choice. Name any other business that would not take down a 'free' product they own from a third party website to host it on their own site, still for free and generate more site hits? Most would take down the old version and lose it so people have to buy the latest version. A-EON is a business not a hobby, treat them as such.
EDIT;
And if it was Greeed that drove Trevor, then he would put his money elsewhere. I think its genuine intrest in the Amiga platform, be it Classic or xyz nextgen spinoff. Id say he would get a much better return on his money putting them in pretty much any other buissniss ;)
I hope they succeed striking a good balance between money in and out. Money IS needed for future and ACCELERATED development, be it for NG and Classic hardware/software.
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I find it very good that the software is continued to be devleoped.
I find it very good that a guy like Andy is doing this
I also find it very good that he gets money for it.
I find it strange to old releases from Aminet are removed.
I don't know the reason(s) for removal from Aminet and feel exactly the same way as biggun just expressed his opinion.
Why can't more members express their views like biggun, without the FUD. Some members here have to accuse A-Eon, or AmigaKit of lying about anything, or destroying the community, when both accusations are false. They are also not trying to control anything, you vote with your wallet and choose to buy the products that A-Eon offers for sale, or you choose another path, but I see no reason for anyone to try to tear down and stop A-Eon from creating what ever they want for our community. If it isn't what you want, make an alternative yourself and offer it to the community for sale, or for free, if you like.
Some members use any excuse to attack and spread false information about A-Eon and AmigaKit every time they disagree with anything they do or announce. It is sad that they don't just promote their own vision of what should be done, or actually do something to show the community that their choices are the best, instead of constantly trying to tear down the actions of a few who are actively trying to do what they feel is good for the community.
Disagree as much as you like, but don't make false accusations, or spread lies about the intentions of people you don't know, just because you disagree with their actions or words.
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You are too often on amiga.org and amigaworld.net
On both sites most people with different views have left and only certain people are left. I do not say the announcement that it will be available for free is wrong but I say they are at least not honest. They are always talking about the "community", that they just bought forum sites for the community only altruistic and at the same time clearly using their money for economic interests. They should at least admit that and not only marketing blabla. If you read the reactions outside the tiny AmigaOS world (f.e. german sites) the reactions are very different. Both Cloanto and Aeonkit have not done them any favor by it. They seem to have lost understanding of the community.
So now you are going to tell me how often I can express my own opinions here and at AmigaWorld.net?
If I go back the past 2 or 3 years, I would bet that you offer your opinions on either site more often than myself, but if you will look at most of my posts recently, you will see that I have defended member's rights to express their opinions, as long as they do it in a civil manner and do not break the rules of either site.
Moderators here are Amiga users too, and we also have our own opinions. Just because we help out by moderating, does not mean we have to give up our right to express our own opinions. Members with extreme attachments to their own view points who cannot get along with other people who have differing opinions, without attacking them, have either left, or have been asked to change the way they express their opinions, to stay within the posting rules. If you are trying to imply that members have left either site because they don't like my opinions, or because I post too often, I think you are exaggerating my influence on those members.
Isn't it funny that some of the members who complain that AmigaKit and A-Eon have bought these sites to try to control the opinions and content that is posted in the forums, are the same users who often only want one side of an argument to be heard, and when anyone disagrees with their point of view, they attempt to scare or force them away.
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I'd probably buy an AROS port, providing there was a time limted, save disabled demo for me to try out first :-)
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Nice to see this being taken on.
Some of the whingeing on this thread is as predictable as it is depressing.
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Layers :)
Not sure how layers would work in an 8bit gfx program, layers based programs such as ahen , SketchBlock, reply on alpha blending and other advanced pixel manipulations like multiply add subtract that do not translate well.
Do you have an example of a 8bit program using layers so I can see how it works in relation to them?
I know ImageFX has alayers facility, but that as well only works for RGB buffers, with a 'frames' version for colourmapped, which is not the same as it's for animation not blending, and as such is covered by PPaint superior animation features.
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I find it very good that the software is continued to be devleoped.
I find it very good that a guy like Andy is doing this
I also find it very good that he gets money for it.
I find it strange to old releases from Aminet are removed.
Bingo. This summarizes my sentiments exactly.
While not fitting the legal definition, PPaint 7.1 has effectively been considered PD for almost two decades. To pull something that old from the community archives - even if it's made available elsewhere - is troubling. Are any other Aminet staples at risk of the same fate in the future?
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I really dont see a problem in removing the free version of PPaint from aminet and hosting it on their own site. People can directly compare the free version with the up to date one and decide if its worth buying or not.
Its a good thing someone is picking this project up and developing further. I really hope they can make some money from it and invest it in other projects or just buy some candy for their kids. :)
The free version is still available and even if it was not, it wouldnt be a disaster, it was free for years, users who wanted it already have it.
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Bingo. This summarizes my sentiments exactly.
While not fitting the legal definition, PPaint 7.1 has effectively been considered PD for almost two decades. To pull something that old from the community archives - even if it's made available elsewhere - is troubling. Are any other Aminet staples at risk of the same fate in the future?
Just hypotetically; if a few other programs are taken out of Aminet to be updated; whats the problem with that?
If something have been derelict for decades the socalled "community" have either;
1) Already got it on floppies/harddrives
2) Never had any use for it in the first place since they didnt download it x years ago
If the only "cost" is the removal of a "dead" program to get a updated program with future developments on the horizon; im all for it.
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@AmigaDave my earlier post was intended to be neutral.
I can see valid reasons for removing the free version of Personal Paint from Aminet. They have invested in developing a new version (with similar version number i.e. a point release update) and want people to consider purchasing that new version, it makes sense to bring traffic to their own website for people wanting a copy of Personal Paint. It makes it clear that it is now actively developed so the new and any future versions are no longer to be freely distributed but instead should be purchased.
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I really dont see a problem in removing the free version of PPaint from aminet and hosting it on their own site. People can directly compare the free version with the up to date one and decide if its worth buying or not.
Yeah, it wouldn't be that big problem if it'd go that way. And maybe also a readme to Aminet explaining where you can get it. I'd be OK for me.
BUT, currently it seems that it won't be available that easily. It hasn't been said it'll be on their web site, it's been said to be on their "servers", which currently looks like that it means it'll be available only through their Amistore software.
It gives a lot of trouble, for example:
1) Amistore application is currently only available for OS4. 68k version is coming some day, but currently you need OS4 to get the software.
2) You need network connection and beefy enough Amiga to run Amistore. You can't get the software directly with Windows, Linux or Mac (to transfer it with other means to Amiga) unless running it on emulation and that might be a bit too big hassle for many users just wanting the old free PPaint to their old Amiga.
3) You probably need to register and take other actions before getting the software you used to have easily on Aminet. Old version's readme could have been updated to direct interested people to new commercial versions.
The free version is still available and even if it was not, it wouldnt be a disaster, it was free for years, users who wanted it already have it.
I can't believe we wouldn't have any new users or old users coming back ever anymore. And nobody would want to reinstall their system? Not everyone is keeping backups of their installation archives which are expected to be freely available anyway. For example many demosceners try different platforms etc and for them PPaint would be a great help, but I'm afraid they won't always look further than Aminet, but their productivity would do good for the Amiga.
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Yeah, it wouldn't be that big problem if it'd go that way. And maybe also a readme to Aminet explaining where you can get it. I'd be OK for me.
BUT, currently it seems that it won't be available that easily. It hasn't been said it'll be on their web site, it's been said to be on their "servers", which currently looks like that it means it'll be available only through their Amistore software.
It gives a lot of trouble, for example:
1) Amistore application is currently only available for OS4. 68k version is coming some day, but currently you need OS4 to get the software.
2) You need network connection and beefy enough Amiga to run Amistore. You can't get the software directly with Windows, Linux or Mac (to transfer it with other means to Amiga) unless running it on emulation and that might be a bit too big hassle for many users just wanting the old free PPaint to their old Amiga.
3) You probably need to register and take other actions before getting the software you used to have easily on Aminet.
Thats indeed a concern. When I asked about the AmigaStore running on Classical hardware, Matthew mentioned it was on a virtual crawl even on his 060 accelerated machine. He did mention that he was thinking/planning a more suitable version, tho I think most of us got 030s?
That said; that can be circumvated by using emulators, running AmigaStore from a PC/UAE...?
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Looks like they have emailed everyone who hosted the files. I have an aminet mirror - and they of course emailed me to remove them.. doh.
I suggest everyone uploads lots of copies to their favourite hosting sites to avoid losing this software that has been freely available for years.
really stupid move.
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I suggest everyone uploads lots of copies to their favourite hosting sites to avoid losing this software that has been freely available for years.
So what your saying is, if cloanto decided to remove their software from Aminet. They are not allowed to? So you own the software?
So I think we can see that Aminet is finished now because one peice of software removed.
People in my opinion and just taking this opportunity to jump on the band wagon.
Bet half have not even heard of PPaint.
Obviously Im going over the top. This how crazy it all is.
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So what your saying is, if cloanto decided to remove their software from Aminet. They are not allowed to? So you own the software?
no. i said it was stupid to remove it, and if people want access to this software that has been freely available for YEARS they should keep some copies around / available.
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Not sure how layers would work in an 8bit gfx program, layers based programs such as ahen , SketchBlock, reply on alpha blending and other advanced pixel manipulations like multiply add subtract that do not translate well.
Do you have an example of a 8bit program using layers so I can see how it works in relation to them?
I know ImageFX has alayers facility, but that as well only works for RGB buffers, with a 'frames' version for colourmapped, which is not the same as it's for animation not blending, and as such is covered by PPaint superior animation features.
grafx2 seems to have layers, have never used this feature though.
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no. i said it was stupid to remove it, and if people want access to this software that has been freely available for YEARS they should keep some copies around / available.
Fair enough.
However you really need to read the threads. It will be available in the future again.
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Why not remove it when it is freely available elsewhere..
This was handled badly. I completely understand why users might be upset about it. You should have made a version freely available then updated the aminet version pointing to it. You would have probably got more sales that way for the updated version too.
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Looks like they have emailed everyone who hosted the files. I have an aminet mirror - and they of course emailed me to remove them.. doh.
I suggest everyone uploads lots of copies to their favourite hosting sites to avoid losing this software that has been freely available for years.
really stupid move.
this sound like something that will be remembered as a really a bad publicity, even worse if there is no simple and honest explanation for this move. who has actually emailed you?
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A-EON Technology Ltd
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Just hypotetically; if a few other programs are taken out of Aminet to be updated; whats the problem with that?
The problem is that the principle/purpose of an archive is to be a safe place to store things in perpetuity. Once something is there, it shouldn't be subject to the whims and moods of whoever submitted it, especially after two decades.
Apart from gross copyright violations (e.g., someone uploaded a commercial product they don't have rights to) or other extremely rare exception, nothing should be removed from Aminet, even if subsequently (re)released commercially.
This current situation is like asking the National Film Registry at the Library of Congress to remove Casablanca or Star Wars. After all, much "better" versions of both have been released in the years since they were first inducted. Those original versions shouldn't be part of the public record anymore!
That would be absurd, right?
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I do see your point, but I do think productivity software is a bit different.
As far as whoever submitted it; if Andy, zzd10h, Lyle or whoever made a piece of software they originally released on Aminet or allowed to be submitted there, we should be thankful they did so in the first place.
If they at a later point decides they want to make a updated version, and in the process make revenue off their work; I defintly dont see the problem with that.
With PP the rights where bought, but other than that, same applies.
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whoever made a piece of software they originally released on Aminet or allowed to be submitted there, we should be thankful they did so in the first place.
we are thankful that cloanto released this software free of charge on aminet. but why should we be thankful, that another entity demands removing it even if they acquired rights to it.
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Well, they are planning to update/develop the program futher, tho I dont expect that to resonate.
And again, its been available for aaaaaages, so anyone even remotely intrested in the program either already have it installed or got a file lying around somewhere.
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I do see your point, but I do think productivity software is a bit different.
As far as whoever submitted it; if Andy, zzd10h, Lyle or whoever made a piece of software they originally released on Aminet or allowed to be submitted there, we should be thankful they did so in the first place.
If they at a later point decides they want to make a updated version, and in the process make revenue off their work; I defintly dont see the problem with that.
With PP the rights where bought, but other than that, same applies.
Oh, it's definitely fine and great if a developer wants to turn one if their programs into a commercial product. I'm saying just leave the old/previous version on Aminet as it was. This has been done countless times throughout Amiga history: v1 is shareware/freeware, v2 is commercial. v1 remains on Aminet, v2 gets something in docs/anno or biz/demo and the full version is available from the developer or retailer.
By putting something on Aminet, you're making a commitment to the community in terms to the distribution of (that particular version of) your software. Changing your mind later and asking that something be pulled goes against the spirit of that commitment. If you want to fully control the distribution of your software, don't put it on Aminet to begin with.
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Well, I have a hard time to villify someone that takes the time to develop software (or in this case update), make it freely available for x years, and then removes it later on.
You make aminet sound like a eternal contract where you sign away the rights to your software.
As I said on AW.net;
So what entitles us to free stuff all the time?
I dont MIND getting free stuff, hell, I even appriciate it. But I dont feel entitled to it either.
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When will A-EON stop shooting themselves in the foot? The correct way of handling this seems pretty obvious to most of us.
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The older 7.1c archive will be available to download from the official PPaint website:
http://ppaint.amistore.net
This domain is still in the process of propogating with DNS servers around the world so it wont be available everywhere until during the next 24-48 hours
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And again, its been available for aaaaaages, so anyone even remotely intrested in the program either already have it installed or got a file lying around somewhere.
so this is the attitude towards those who did not download yet, let alone potential new users? sure, there aint no new users, not likely given the circumstances.
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Again; what entitles us to free stuff all the time.
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What the whingers don't seem to get is that the copyright holder might want to host the free downloads, of their older software, on their own site so that downloaders can be informed and kept up to date with improvements/free bug fixes/new versions.
It makes perfect sense.
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Again; what entitles us to free stuff all the time.
I presume you've bought this and other packages from AmiStore yourself? ;)
Anyways, one should not forget the super important role of PD in the history of the Amiga. It is freeware that has kept the flame burning for years and years, not commercial software packages. No one is entitled to free software, but the norm on the Amiga has been to make things for fun, challenge and coolness, not cashing in. I'm talking about the last 10-15 years here of course. Aminet has been THE port of call for enthusiasts, newbies etc, and the unwritten rule is that what goes on Aminet stays on Aminet.
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What the whingers don't seem to get is that the copyright holder might want to host the free downloads, of their older software, on their own site so that downloaders can be informed and kept up to date with improvements/free bug fixes/new versions.
It makes perfect sense.
Then this should have been made clear and it should have been done in a different order (making the file available first). I still think it would have been better to leave the original copy on aminet and just update the readme etc (could reference the website).
not rocket science.
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Then this should have been made clear and it should have been done in a different order (making the file available first).
not rocket science.
Ok yeah it was done a bit back-to-front, but I also don't see a big deal if they're going to make it available on their website for free. If it's only on AmiStore then that's a bit of a pain for classic and MorphOS users though, but if you really want PPaint, it's not exactly hard to find through a quick Google search.
It's nice to see a classic piece of Amiga software back in development though. It would be nice to see a version for all Amiga-like OSes and the original Amiga too, rather than just focussing on OS4, especially as I tend to see a lot more people using MorphOS than OS4 on the forums these days, it would be nice to at least have a compatible 68K version for MorphOS, I'd be up for buying that.
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I presume you've bought this and other packages from AmiStore yourself? ;)
Anyways, one should not forget the super important role of PD in the history of the Amiga. It is freeware that has kept the flame burning for years and years, not commercial software packages. No one is entitled to free software, but the norm on the Amiga has been to make things for fun, challenge and coolness, not cashing in. I'm talking about the last 10-15 years here of course. Aminet has been THE port of call for enthusiasts, newbies etc, and the unwritten rule is that what goes on Aminet stays on Aminet.
Ive bought software and hardware from AmigaKit and other vendors this year, and kitted out my A1200. Gotten AO4 Classic too etc.
That said; I dont do painting, so for me personally I dont need Personal Paint for anything.
Just because I support what AeonKit is trying to do overall, doesnt mean I intend on throwing money at them blindly. I buy what I want/have any use for.
I do already have Personal Paint on the harddrive tho.
As for Aminet; yes I agree its a wonderful resource, but I cant see why vendors and developers should be villified because of endusers misconseptions.
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Perhaps their next acquisition could be Ibrowse, (I like the name), and develop it for the 68k, it might entice people to their amistore as well.
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I think this is only positive direction that someone takes commercial interest in Amiga software. I would be happy to pay something for example for updated IBrowse and other software as well, this is so niche market and as a software developer I understand the amount of work that is needed for development.
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Yeah, it wouldn't be that big problem if it'd go that way. And maybe also a readme to Aminet explaining where you can get it. I'd be OK for me.
BUT, currently it seems that it won't be available that easily. It hasn't been said it'll be on their web site, it's been said to be on their "servers", which currently looks like that it means it'll be available only through their Amistore software.
It gives a lot of trouble, for example:
1) Amistore application is currently only available for OS4. 68k version is coming some day, but currently you need OS4 to get the software.
2) You need network connection and beefy enough Amiga to run Amistore. You can't get the software directly with Windows, Linux or Mac (to transfer it with other means to Amiga) unless running it on emulation and that might be a bit too big hassle for many users just wanting the old free PPaint to their old Amiga.
3) You probably need to register and take other actions before getting the software you used to have easily on Aminet. Old version's readme could have been updated to direct interested people to new commercial versions.
I can't believe we wouldn't have any new users or old users coming back ever anymore. And nobody would want to reinstall their system? Not everyone is keeping backups of their installation archives which are expected to be freely available anyway. For example many demosceners try different platforms etc and for them PPaint would be a great help, but I'm afraid they won't always look further than Aminet, but their productivity would do good for the Amiga.
Sadly you are wrong, you assumed it would only be available via Amistore but its not. You can download from http://ppaint.amistore.net/. We should be happy there is a company willing to invest in anything Amiga related but all we do is complain and whine.... like always....
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Perhaps their next acquistion could be Ibrowse, (I like the name), and develop it for the 68k, it might entice people to their amistore as well.
Yes!
(http://www.keenandgraev.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Take-my-Money-300x168.jpg)
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I believe that people are afraid that the Amiga is going to get gutted like what happened back the 90's.
1789
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it would be nice to at least have a compatible 68K version for MorphOS, I'd be up for buying that.
There no reason that the 68k PPaint 7.3 shouldn't work on Morphos, there is code within, that I haven't messed with, for detecting Morphos. If the 71.c works the 7.3 should too. If the 7.1c has issues then those issues likely remain unless they were fixed by accident :-). It's not been tested on MOS though.
If someone who has both OS4 and MOS and bought the 68k version would like to give feedback they would be welcome :-)
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There no reason that the 68k PPaint 7.3 shouldn't work on Morphos, there is code within, that I haven't messed with, for detecting Morphos. If the 71.c works the 7.3 should too. If the 7.1c has issues then those issues likely remain unless they were fixed by accident :-). It's not been tested on MOS though.
If someone who has both OS4 and MOS and bought the 68k version would like to give feedback they would be welcome :-)
I don't run OS4 any more unfortunately, but I do have a nice 040 classic and two MorphOS machines, happy to test it if I can buy it!
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Where can the version that was on Aminet until recently available for download at the moment?
Gotta admit, something sticks in my craw badly about software being released on sites like Aminet then being pulled. But hey, if they bought it out, I guess it's theirs to do what they wish now in the long run. I never used the program enough to pay for it to begin with, so no skin off me. ADPro and the other oldies (even DPaint) still run just fine on OS4 and are better as it sits anyways.
Thankfully I do an automated mirror of Aminet for my BBS once every couple weeks, so I should still have it around for personal use.
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Great to see some software development. Really. Wish it would happen with IBrowse and some other old, but good, programs as well.
However, for now I'll stick to Brilliance 2. PPaint seems to load images into chipmem, while Brilliance 2 loads images into fastmem, and simply copies the visible part to chipmem, allowing you to work on huge images without ever running out of chipmem.
There's certainly room for improvement:
1. Handling of very large images. This is a an absolute must. You MUST ;) add this.
2. Handling 24 bit color images as 24 bit internally and use HAM6/8 for visualizing the image. Brilliance 2 does this quite nicely. It can also be done a lot faster than Brilliance 2 does it (it calculates a palette for the image first, quite slow, and the conversion process itself isn't very fast, either). Good quality HAM8 rendering can be done at about 120 cycles per pixel on a 50 mhz 68030, so there's no performance reason to not have it.
3. Brilliance 2 has a horizontal interface orientation at the bottom of the screen. This is actually a second screen. This means that the interface will always have the right colors and resolution regardless of the screen mode you're using for the image.
There are undoubtedly some other things, but these are pretty important.
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PPaint seems to load images into chipmem, while Brilliance 2 loads images into fastmem, and simply copies the visible part to chipmem, allowing you to work on huge images without ever running out of chipmem.
It does not.
PLease gives reason for your asumption, plus deatails of the system you are running on. (that way I can help you figure out what my be wrong).
First guess would be using personal_agnus_blit.library rather than personal_cpu_Blit.library
Unselect the Menu->Graphics->AmigaBlitter option if selected save settings and restart.
There's certainly room for improvement:
Always. Even Photoshop can be improved :-)
1. Handling of very large images. This is a an absolute must. You MUST ;) add this.
I'd love to take credit for this, but it exists since long before I saw the source code.
4000x5000 pixels was the largest I could get running on my SAM 440
2. Handling 24 bit color images as 24 bit internally and use HAM6/8 for visualizing the image.
This isn't going to happen very quickly, if at all, though never say never, Brilliance 2 was a total rewrite IIRC or is thet TrueBrilliance? not 100% familar with whioch names never even heard of that bit of software til I worked on PPaint.
In my 3.x days my choice was DPaint PPaint ot ImageFX
3. Brilliance 2 has a horizontal interface orientation at the bottom of the screen. This is actually a second screen. This means that the interface will always have the right colors and resolution regardless of the screen mode you're using for the image.
Seem to remeber ImageFX working like that too, it was pretty crap.
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Thorham
I presume you are refereeing to True Brilliance which was the 24-bit painting program. For me Brilliance 2 is akin Personal Paint, while True Brilliance is more related to Andy Broad's SketchBlock. Anyway both programs (PP7.3 and SketchBlock) will be in the upcoming Radiance Multimedia Suite release.
BTW IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong) wasn't Personal Paint the first Amiga paint program to break the 2mb chip RAM barrier?
TrevorD
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If someone who has both OS4 and MOS and bought the 68k version would like to give feedback they would be welcome :-)
You wish is my command. ;-)
I will give it a try later today.
TrevorD
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Jesus H corbert. I think this might be the end. What is wrong with us all. People do nothing we moan. people spend money and time and effort we moan. It is about time people put up or shut up. I have never seen more people moan about the efforts of others whilst doing f all themselves.
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Great news! One question... Is there a hardware list of the pressure sensitive (I assume tablets) devices that are supported? I currently have a Wacom Artpad II that is somewhat supported by Formaldihyd on AmiNet but it works just so, so. Built in support for Wacom (Artpad II) tablets would be great!
By Chris Hodges
http://aminet.net/package/driver/input/FormAldiHyd
@AmigaKit... PLEEEZE acquire the rights to iBrowse!:)
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PLease gives reason for your asumption
It's not an assumption. I tried with a 1920x1024 image that loads fine in Brilliance.
plus deatails of the system you are running on.
A1200 with Blizzard 1230IV and 64mb fastmem.
Unselect the Menu->Graphics->AmigaBlitter option if selected save settings and restart.
Tried it, and it still wont load the image.
Always. Even Photoshop can be improved :-)
Very true :)
I presume you are refereeing to True Brilliance which was the 24-bit painting program. For me Brilliance 2 is akin Personal Paint, while True Brilliance is more related to Andy Broad's SketchBlock.
Brilliance 2 and True Brilliance are in the same package, and work in the same way. True Brilliance is simply the true color version of Brilliance 2.
BTW IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong) wasn't Personal Paint the first Amiga paint program to break the 2mb chip RAM barrier?
Can't get it to work here.
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Great news! One question... Is there a hardware list of the pressure sensitive (I assume tablets) devices that are supported? I currently have a Wacom Artpad II that is somewhat supported by Formaldihyd on AmiNet but it works just so, so. Built in support for Wacom (Artpad II) tablets would be great!
It works via the 3.x Intuition Tablet API (and OS4 extentions to that) so any driver system standard driver should work. Anything using a custom protocol wont for the moment.
I've no dea what drivers do what on the 68k side I'm afraid, I never had a tablet for my a1200, and can't get the tablet I do have recognised by WinUAE.
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It's not an assumption. I tried with a 1920x1024 image that loads fine in Brilliance.
A1200 with Blizzard 1230IV and 64mb fastmem.
Tried it, and it still wont load the image.
Very true :)
Brilliance 2 and True Brilliance are in the same package, and work in the same way. True Brilliance is simply the true color version of Brilliance 2.
Can't get it to work here.
So do you have a RTG card or you using AGA.
What screen size / mode is it trying open? Because 1920x1024 is awfully close to 2Mb.
What error report are you getting when it fails to open.
Also make sure that autoscroll id off it the settings as PPaint may try to allocate a screen teh same size as the image and autoscroll on it.
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So do you have a RTG card or you using AGA.
AGA.
What screen size / mode is it trying open? Because 1920x1024 is awfully close to 2Mb.
By default it tries to open a 1920x1024 screen. If I pick the current screen mode (688x564 8 colors), it also says there's not enough memory.
What error report are you getting when it fails to open.
'There is not enough memory'.
Also make sure that autoscroll id off it the settings as PPaint may try to allocate a screen teh same size as the image and autoscroll on it.
Tried it, and it doesn't work.
Somehow I doubt it can do it.
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Tried it, and it doesn't work.
Somehow I doubt it can do it.
Done some testing on a AGA only WinUAE setup and can't get larger images to work. we did have testers working at 1920x1080 but on RTG based systems I think.
The 68k version seems to work better on AmigaOS4 than on 3.x which is pecualiarly ironic, because it has no ChipMem at all.
Will go digging in the source code for the reason.
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Done some testing on a AGA only WinUAE setup and can't get larger images to work. we did have testers working at 1920x1080 but on RTG based systems I think.
The 68k version seems to work better on AmigaOS4 than on 3.x which is pecualiarly ironic, because it has no ChipMem at all.
Will go digging in the source code for the reason.
It's a feature you'd have to add. Brilliance 2 will only open a screen that's the size of the visible area. You literally can't open anything larger (it won't let you, you can only make smaller screens). It loads everything into fastmem and copies image data to the screen memory as needed. Basically, you have the screen size, and page size. This also allows you to have many pages, and the only thing that takes up chipmem is the visible part of the screen.
Of course the drawback of this system is that it's slow with double scan modes in resolutions such as 640x512 in 256 colors, but when doing lowres work it's fantastic.
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It's a feature you'd have to add. Brilliance 2 will only open a screen that's the size of the visible area. You literally can't open anything larger (it won't let you, you can only make smaller screens). It loads everything into fastmem and copies image data to the screen memory as needed. Basically, you have the screen size, and page size. This also allows you to have many pages, and the only thing that takes up chipmem is the visible part of the screen.
Of course the drawback of this system is that it's slow with double scan modes in resolutions such as 640x512 in 256 colors, but when doing lowres work it's fantastic.
I don;t really have to add it as such, that's how it works on an RTG screen, though it does open as large a screen clip as possible, if the image is bigger still then the image can be dragged arround in the screen clip or scrolled with the arrow keys.
It does seem to use chip mem in combination with RTG when both exist which limits final image size and clearly on AGA it uses chip much more, but when the cpu based blitter is in use, then chipmem is not required. I should be able to detect usage of CPU lib and "throw a switch" to disble usage of chipram.
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I don;t really have to add it as such, that's how it works on an RTG screen, though it does open as large a screen clip as possible, if the image is bigger still then the image can be dragged arround in the screen clip or scrolled with the arrow keys.
It does seem to use chip mem in combination with RTG when both exist which limits final image size and clearly on AGA it uses chip much more, but when the cpu based blitter is in use, then chipmem is not required. I should be able to detect usage of CPU lib and "throw a switch" to disble usage of chipram.
Cool :) Did someone forget to activate this? Sounds like just the thing someone might overlook somehow.
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I Think it's too useful to be left off by accident, so I'm probably being overly optimistic, it more like a feature halfway there, I just need to find wat breaks when switching of Chipmem and see if it's fixable.
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Very glad to hear this positive development.
The community can only profit as a whole from efforts like these. :)
I am not concerned about it being removed from Aminet. If you have the CDs you will always have it.
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Good pixel art program. I use it regularly alongside dpaint and brilliance (theyre all better for different things).
As for the removal of the current version from aminet, It is a little unusual, but not worth losing sleep over.
Good luck to whoever is at the helm.
AROS version would be great by the way.
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So what your saying is, if cloanto decided to remove their software from Aminet. They are not allowed to? So you own the software?
They are of course allowed to ask, but I can see no legal basis for its removal, given the license it was distributed under. Aminet is not their site.
I'm mostly with biggun here. It's great to see the continued development of PPaint, but asking to for existing versions from Aminet to be removed seems like a bad move.
Here is the license, if anyone is interested: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=EBjy10KY
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Did anyone else notice this part buried inside the EULA:
"Publication or distribution of any part of this archive without the
prior written license from Cloanto constitutes acceptance of a licensing
contract and fee to be determined by Cloanto, at a cost in no case lower
than EUR 10000.00, payable to Cloanto immediately upon publication or
distribution."
This demonstrates the likely reason it was released in the first place: hoping that someone would mirror the file for the benefit of the community, then they could threaten to sue them for millions of euros to force an out-of-court settlement, just like eg. the MPAA do. Even though EULAs in general, and completely ridiculous and unfair clauses like this one in particular, have no legal force. It really is a good example of Cloanto's philosophy of screwing the community.
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Quick, get your tin hat!
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Did anyone else notice this part buried inside the EULA:
"Publication or distribution of any part of this archive without the
prior written license from Cloanto constitutes acceptance of a licensing
contract and fee to be determined by Cloanto, at a cost in no case lower
than EUR 10000.00, payable to Cloanto immediately upon publication or
distribution."
This demonstrates the likely reason it was released in the first place: hoping that someone would mirror the file for the benefit of the community, then they could threaten to sue them for millions of euros to force an out-of-court settlement, just like eg. the MPAA do. Even though EULAs in general, and completely ridiculous and unfair clauses like this one in particular, have no legal force. It really is a good example of Cloanto's philosophy of screwing the community.
Screwing the community? What are you on about? Ive had Amiga Forever for many years and actually find their product easy to use and enjoyable. They have never charged me for anything I didnt order, so I for one do not feel "screwed".
I do realise that the package they sell/deliver can be assembled by myself for the most part, but for some the few euros they ask for a "one click for complete solution" is WELL worth it.
So, unless you have any spesific cases where Clantao have gone out of their ways to hammer a poor unsuspecting soul into the ground on legality, you should maybe rethink your accusations.
All that aside; a COMMERCIAL entity do have to protect their investment with legal mumbo jumbo. Considering the sentiment of some in this "community" (and Im sure that holds true outside too), everything should be free (and if not; pirated). Its no wonder developers/software houses got an army of lawyers.
I pay Spotify 99 nkr a month for premium music access, and havent given it a second thought. I love the seamless access to music anywhere.
Same goes for AF emulation package, and thats a one time investment.
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This is nothing really to do with Amiga Forever or Spotify, I'm not sure of the relevance.
>So, unless you have any spesific cases where Clantao have gone out of their ways to hammer a poor unsuspecting soul into the ground on legality, you should maybe rethink your accusations.
Well, there was the bluehost incident a few years back.
Anyway, the fact that they haven't to my knowledge attempted to sue anyone over PPaint probably just means they are fully aware that these kinds of licence terms are completely unenforcable and would be laughed out of court.
But it looks like it was A-EON after all behind the removal from Aminet, and then they falsely tried to blame Cloanto for it: "will continue to make historical version of Personal Paint available for free download and that includes the version of PPaint that Cloanto removed from Aminet." and then silently edited their post later to remove this false claim without any explanation.
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Why the hell must some people turn every good thing that happens to this community into some sort of "proof" that something evil is in the works ...
Let's face it guys, Amiga will never get a comeback. At this rate we will never be a viable commercial platform again. DESPITE THAT some people are actually investing time and money, even though it's pretty damn likely they will never see that money again and could have spent that time more productively someplace else.
Amiga, in all flavours, have been redused to a hobby OS. Nothing more, nothing less. With that in mind it makes more sense that some people want to invest money into this project anyway. They do it for fun, they do it for love and not to make any serious money out of it.
SO BACK OFF! When something good happens to our small (but obviously enternally angry) camp we should celibrate, not attack at the smallest of details.
You don't like that Personal Paint has been removed from Aminet? HUH? If you so desperately want it, just google it or go to piratebay, wait for it to be available for free again or ... I don't know, BUY IT now when it's actually being developed again.
I swear, Trevor and the guys must be real masochists if they have to get this kind of beating every god damn time thye do anything good and still come back for seconds.
Sorry 'bout the rant. I just got pissed off.
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Why the hell must some people turn every good thing that happens to this community into some sort of "proof" that something evil is in the works ...
Let's face it guys, Amiga will never get a comeback. At this rate we will never be a viable commercial platform again. DESPITE THAT some people are actually investing time and money, even though it's pretty damn likely they will never see that money again and could have spent that time more productively someplace else.
Amiga, in all flavours, have been redused to a hobby OS. Nothing more, nothing less. With that in mind it makes more sense that some people want to invest money into this project anyway. They do it for fun, they do it for love and not to make any serious money out of it.
SO BACK OFF! When something good happens to our small (but obviously enternally angry) camp we should celibrate, not attack at the smallest of details.
You don't like that Personal Paint has been removed from Aminet? HUH? If you so desperately want it, just google it or go to piratebay, wait for it to be available for free again or ... I don't know, BUY IT now when it's actually being developed again.
I swear, Trevor and the guys must be real masochists if they have to get this kind of beating every god damn time thye do anything good and still come back for seconds.
Sorry 'bout the rant. I just got pissed off.
+1
Download available and working now (albeit a bit slow download speed).
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But it looks like it was A-EON after all behind the removal from Aminet, and then they falsely tried to blame Cloanto for it: "will continue to make historical version of Personal Paint available for free download and that includes the version of PPaint that Cloanto removed from Aminet." and then silently edited their post later to remove this false claim without any explanation.
Obviously he made a mistake.
I still fail to see what the issue is here. Its gone from Aminet, live with it.
It will still be available from Amistore server as a free download.
So lets sum up, its moved from one location to another.
So nothing has changed, still not seeing the issue here.
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This demonstrates the likely reason it was released in the first place: hoping that someone would mirror the file for the benefit of the community, then they could threaten to sue them for millions of euros to force an out-of-court settlement
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Aminet and it's mirrors for the benefit of the community? Would there really be a need to host it elsewhere?
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Why the hell must some people turn every good thing that happens to this community into some sort of "proof" that something evil is in the works ...
Let's face it guys, Amiga will never get a comeback. At this rate we will never be a viable commercial platform again. DESPITE THAT some people are actually investing time and money, even though it's pretty damn likely they will never see that money again and could have spent that time more productively someplace else.
Amiga, in all flavours, have been redused to a hobby OS. Nothing more, nothing less. With that in mind it makes more sense that some people want to invest money into this project anyway. They do it for fun, they do it for love and not to make any serious money out of it.
SO BACK OFF! When something good happens to our small (but obviously enternally angry) camp we should celibrate, not attack at the smallest of details.
You don't like that Personal Paint has been removed from Aminet? HUH? If you so desperately want it, just google it or go to piratebay, wait for it to be available for free again or ... I don't know, BUY IT now when it's actually being developed again.
I swear, Trevor and the guys must be real masochists if they have to get this kind of beating every god damn time thye do anything good and still come back for seconds.
Sorry 'bout the rant. I just got pissed off.
+1
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I must be mistaken in thinking that you are the programmer who I donated a G4 MacMini MorphOS system to years ago, with the hopes that you would produce some useful software, or at least port some existing software of your own, or others, to the MorphOS platform.
I have done so, and I continue to do so, as a quick glance at Aminet or my site will indicate. (Or I can list them all here for you.) Are you suggesting I have done otherwise?
I would think that as a programmer, you would support the right of other programmers to do what ever they want with their code, including trying to sell it in any way that they choose.
I never said they shouldn't develop new versions of PPaint and sell them.
I doubt that Trevor Dickinson will ever make a single penny of profit from our community, after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing new hardware for those interested in running AmigaOS4.x on PPC computers
Maybe or maybe not; certainly the profit margins on those machines are excessive. So if they can't turn a profit, maybe they should rethink their business model, eg. to go to open hardware, as people have been suggesting for years. But that's another topic.
I believe that even the members of our community who dislike the products currently available from A-Eon, or who dislike the decisions they have made on the direction they support AmigaOS4.x users (which is not the only part of the community they support), would agree that Trevor and A-Eon deserve some credit for at least attempting to do something, while so many others just complain and do nothing.
It is people who act like you just did Minuous, who make me sick, and wonder why anyone would act that way. Like his products and services or not, and agree or disagree with his decisions on how to support our community, what gives you the right to ask him to leave our community and to accuse him falsely, as you have done?
I never asked him to leave the community, I don't see where you are getting this idea from. But clearly it doesn't help the community to remove software from Aminet like this without warning, and then lie about it.
Here's what has happened:
a) A-EON pressures Aminet to remove software.
b) I and others blame A-EON for doing this.
c) A-EON says "Also we will continue to make historical version of Personal Paint available for free download and that includes the version of PPaint that Cloanto removed from Aminet." thus attempting to shift blame onto Cloanto.
d) I accept his words as truth, apologize for thinking it was A-EON at fault, and blame Cloanto.
e) Further information comes to light proving it was A-EON all along, and that they have lied.
f) A-EON edits post to remove false claim without explanation.
That makes me pretty angry, that he spreads lies like this, he should not blame other companies for the actions of his company, it's just a matter of professionalism. It's not a matter of liking the products or not. I don't believe I have made any accusations that are false (except blaming Cloanto, which was based on taking A-EON at their word, a mistake I won't make again), maybe you could give an example...?
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I have done so, and I continue to do so, as a quick glance at Aminet or my site will indicate. (Or I can list them all here for you.) Are you suggesting I have done otherwise?
I never said they shouldn't develop new versions of PPaint and sell them.
Maybe or maybe not; certainly the profit margins on those machines are excessive. So if they can't turn a profit, maybe they should rethink their business model, eg. to go to open hardware, as people have been suggesting for years. But that's another topic.
I believe that even the members of our community who dislike the products currently available from A-Eon, or who dislike the decisions they have made on the direction they support AmigaOS4.x users (which is not the only part of the community they support), would agree that Trevor and A-Eon deserve some credit for at least attempting to do something, while so many others just complain and do nothing.
I never asked him to leave the community, I don't see where you are getting this idea from. But clearly it doesn't help the community to remove software from Aminet like this without warning, and then lie about it.
Here's what has happened:
a) A-EON pressures Aminet to remove software.
b) I and others blame A-EON for doing this.
c) A-EON says "Also we will continue to make historical version of Personal Paint available for free download and that includes the version of PPaint that Cloanto removed from Aminet." thus attempting to shift blame onto Cloanto.
d) I accept his words as truth, apologize for thinking it was A-EON at fault, and blame Cloanto.
e) Further information comes to light proving it was A-EON all along, and that they have lied.
f) A-EON edits post to remove false claim without explanation.
That makes me pretty angry, that he spreads lies like this, he should not blame other companies for the actions of his company, it's just a matter of professionalism. It's not a matter of liking the products or not. I don't believe I have made any accusations that are false (except blaming Cloanto, which was based on taking A-EON at their word, a mistake I won't make again), maybe you could give an example...?
Your just going to keep going on about this.
Trevor obviously made a mistake and corrected as its not fair to cloanto.
I can see we are not going to get any where here. As you will continue to ignore posts and post what you want.
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That makes me pretty angry,
Ok. Moderators. please moderate - Start a new thread or something for discussions like the one quoted. I guess most of us wants to read about the new features of the new personal paint in this thread. How, when, were. Not about personal feelings against company X or whatever else.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Aminet and it's mirrors for the benefit of the community? Would there really be a need to host it elsewhere?
Recent events have shown that things can and do disappear from Aminet without warning...
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Recent events have shown that things can and do disappear from Aminet without warning...
Which is a problem how?
If the removal is done by the owner/developer of said program, its really none of our buissniss.
I dont mind getting stuff for free, but Im not entitled to it.
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I'm gonna break the circle and ask:
What will it take to get a MorphOS native version? A pledge? A pre-order? I'm happy to do both :)
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Nothing wrong with amistore, but will it be available outside that too?( I'll support it anyway)..:)
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Yes it will be available on AmigaKit soon in a tangible (non-digital) form.
@Yasu
Why not raise a forum poll on MOS specific forums asking for pledges :) If it works financially... :)
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@AmigaKit
Sure. But before that we kinda need to know what is financially viable to begin with. How much Euro would do?
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So much drama about something we don't own :rolleyes:
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Recent events have shown that things can and do disappear from Aminet without warning...
Lots of software has disappeared from the Amiga scene over the years, both commercial and freeware. Should we start hosting all software in other places just in case? Would someone be justified in cracking MorphOS because Ralph might one day stop selling keys?
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So much drama about something we don't own :rolleyes:
+1
Lots of software has disappeared from the Amiga scene over the years, both commercial and freeware. Should we start hosting all software in other places just in case? Would someone be justified in cracking MorphOS because Ralph might one day stop selling keys?
People seem to forget that Cinemaware removed their games (without warning) they had free on their site for 5+ years.
Did I moan, nope. It was a case of oh well. Now they are selling updated games, wings and soon rocket ranger.
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Well, I have a hard time to villify someone that takes the time to develop software (or in this case update), make it freely available for x years, and then removes it later on.
You make aminet sound like a eternal contract where you sign away the rights to your software.
Like I said earlier, if a developer wants to make a new version of their software a commercial product, that's fine and excellent and if it's a product I use I'll gladly buy it. Just don't pull the old version. True, uploading to Aminet doesn't strip developers of their rights from a legal standpoint, but the spirit of a software archive is a permanent home for gratis software.
As I said on AW.net;
So what entitles us to free stuff all the time?
I dont MIND getting free stuff, hell, I even appriciate it. But I dont feel entitled to it either.
It's not the "free stuff" aspect - after all, the old version appears to be available again if anyone needs it, and I'll put in an order for the new version as soon as it's for sale. It's the principle of permanence in a community software archive. Are A-EON/Cloanto within their legal rights to pull from Aminet? Sure, but I worry about the precedent this sets.
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What on earth does "Totally integrated with the AmigaOS Workbench" imply?
Other than that, I have bunch loads of various versions of PPaint, but it never reached the level as DPaint, especially not for animation. I'm looking forward to using DPaint on FPGA Archade some day :)
Also, in my view AmiStore is a fad, will prob not be around for long, and also a very clumsy way of distributing software, while aminet clearly is not a fad and there are loads of software with aminet integration.
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Sadly you are wrong, you assumed it would only be available via Amistore but its not. You can download from http://ppaint.amistore.net/. We should be happy there is a company willing to invest in anything Amiga related but all we do is complain and whine.... like always....
Yes, now we are wiser, but until this it was asked several times, but no clear answer was given. Only that same mantra of "our servers". I wouldn't wonder that it was public pressure which made this decision.
Seems I can download it now, but it's coming steady 8kB/s... I wonder if it's restricted speed.
I complain because this is a program which is good advertisement for our beloved platform. It's been good for Amiga to have it freely from Aminet. I want it to be available for future users and future of Amiga. No personal reasons here.
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Wow!
We have had some really great emails and pmails over the last day- so thank you to everyone who passed on their congratulations and support messages. It certainly inspires us to develop Personal Paint further for Classic Amiga and Next Generation Amiga.
Personally speaking, as a big enthusiast and daily user of my Commodore Amiga 1200, I am very pleased that there is so much public support for system still there :) Exciting times ahead!
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@Amigakit
Great! Go for it! Now, regarding my question ... ;)
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@Yasu
We want to now push towards version 7.5 and onwards, so a few hundred hours development time, and the costs involved with that. As a pure *estimate*, I would speculate if you can get around 180 potential MorphOS buyers, I think we can break even on such a project.
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@Amigakit
Ok, that much? I would imagine a cross compiling project between AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS to be a lot simpler than that? Or am I wrong?
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You would be surprised what a developer charges. In the Amiga world, we get very low rates compared to other platforms, but it still adds up to a sizeable cost. We don't want to charge a high ticket price for the software, so its a balance of number of users to retail price for the software.
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I wish I could have access to Amistore to buy and download PPaint, but I've been waiting for Amigakit (or A-EON) to reset my non-working login credentials for ever now and no luck.:cry:
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@WeiXing3D
You have got PMail! You username and password work OK :)
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I wish I could have access to Amistore to buy and download PPaint, but I've been waiting for Amigakit (or A-EON) to reset my non-working login credentials for ever now and no luck.:cry:
Did you PM them. I needed something resolved and after a few messages on AWN everything was sorted out very quickly. A few hours tops.
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@Amigakit
Are we talking of a conversion of the current version from AmigaOS 4 to MorphOS, or are we talking about the roadmap to 7.5 that requires 180 potential buyers?
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Roadmap to 7.5 version initially, then beyond. We want to keep all platforms in step with each other. It is better for consistent marketing, packaging, CD/DVD duplication and support tasks.
Personally, as a Commodore Amiga 1200 fan and user every day, I don't want the Classic Amiga version left behind others, so taking one big step forward with all platforms is important.
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@Amigakit
So 180 for future versions with cool, new features I take it? Sounds resonable :)
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Yes and best of all, we can take feature requests across the platforms.
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Cool :) Did someone forget to activate this? Sounds like just the thing someone might overlook somehow.
More research in the code, reveals that my original assertion that it uses fastmem when using the CPU based blit lib was 100% true.
I can open a 1920x1080p image on a WinUAE setup with only AGA (ie no uaegfx based RTG) which is as close as I can get to my retired a1200.
Such an image uses 1.97MiB of mem, which allowing for workbench at 256 and ppaint screen itself clearly doesn't fit inside a 2Mb limit.
In fact I have 298,984 bytes left over.
However one issue I did see is that intially it throws up a requester saying insuffiecient Chip mem for the requested screen, this is because it tried to allocate a max overscan super hires laced 256 colour screen. It then fell back to a simply None Overscan Hires-Laced
Max overscan off 1472 x 566 = 833152 bytes so maybe a bit tight with the WB and any background images open at the same time.
Some fine tuning to predetermine the display mode in some future version might help with this. (if there isn't already an option I missed)
There may still be an issue with even larger images.
BTW which version were you using?
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When will A-EON stop shooting themselves in the foot? The correct way of handling this seems pretty obvious to most of us.
Care to elaborate on how further development of a great piece of software can possible be "shooting themselves in the foot"
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You would be surprised what a developer charges. In the Amiga world, we get very low rates compared to other platforms, but it still adds up to a sizeable cost. We don't want to charge a high ticket price for the software, so its a balance of number of users to retail price for the software.
Where I work we charge no less than 200 euros an hour, so development don't come cheap.
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How about if we find a developer to do the port for free? :)
BTW. If I have PPaint 7.3 from Amiga Forever, can I get future updates of PPaint for free without buying next year's AF?
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How about if we find a developer to do the port for free? :)
er what if I arrange for someone to do your job for free? :-)
BTW. If I have PPaint 7.3 from Amiga Forever, can I get future updates of PPaint for free without buying next year's AF?
7.2 comes with AF not 7.3
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er what if I arrange for someone to do your job for free? :-)
If I still get paid, bring it on! But anyway, I thought you don't have MorphOS machine and maybe not interest either.. I thought it'd be someone else to do that job.
7.2 comes with AF not 7.3
So, can I get it updated to 7.3 and up?
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If I still get paid, bring it on!
lol that defeats the point a little :-)
So, can I get it updated to 7.3 and up?
By buying it from AEon yes.
{edit}
You updated your comment. It may or may not be me that works on any update but whoever did so would have a fair amount of work on their hands.
I'm not prejudiced against MOS / AROS BTW AWeb was always cross platform (though itix did most of the coding for MOS I was always happy to intregrate it, and avoid breaking it)
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@Amigakit
Well, it will be very hard to get 180 pledges on MorphZone since a lot of users don't hang around there. But since there are some 2500+ licenses sold and counting and probably 800-1000 active users (rough estimate), selling 180 copies seems feesable.
It also depends of course what the price will be, and how much updates costs. The cheaper, the more buyers obviously.
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I have tried to keep quite!, but cant... ;)
Why cant A-Eon create something that every amiga user wants. A classic amiga clone (fpga amiga) with up to date technology to bring it into the 2014 and beyond.
THAT is what we want.
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I have tried to keep quite!, but cant... ;)
Why cant A-Eon create something that every amiga user wants. A classic amiga clone (fpga amiga) with up to date technology to bring it into the 2014 and beyond.
THAT is what we want.
that is what you want. it is not what i want. ;)
that said, i'd probably still buy one. :lol:
-- eliyahu
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that is what you want. it is not what i want. ;)
that said, i'd probably still buy one. :lol:
-- eliyahu
Indeed. Its defintly something I would buy ^^ (granted it was somewhat reasonably priced)
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Why the hell must some people turn every good thing that happens to this community into some sort of "proof" that something evil is in the works ...
Let's face it guys, Amiga will never get a comeback. At this rate we will never be a viable commercial platform again. DESPITE THAT some people are actually investing time and money, even though it's pretty damn likely they will never see that money again and could have spent that time more productively someplace else.
Amiga, in all flavours, have been redused to a hobby OS. Nothing more, nothing less. With that in mind it makes more sense that some people want to invest money into this project anyway. They do it for fun, they do it for love and not to make any serious money out of it.
SO BACK OFF! When something good happens to our small (but obviously enternally angry) camp we should celibrate, not attack at the smallest of details.
You don't like that Personal Paint has been removed from Aminet? HUH? If you so desperately want it, just google it or go to piratebay, wait for it to be available for free again or ... I don't know, BUY IT now when it's actually being developed again.
I swear, Trevor and the guys must be real masochists if they have to get this kind of beating every god damn time thye do anything good and still come back for seconds.
Sorry 'bout the rant. I just got pissed off.
+1
Download working here too.. Not that I need it, I already got it ;)
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Indeed. Its defintly something I would buy ^^ (granted it was somewhat reasonably priced)
Since I was forced away from my amiga in 1997-2000 and into a pc! where I have SPENT alot of cash on a pc priced from 1500-2000 US Dollars. So if someone made a classic amiga "clone" that is updated in hardware so it could be used to do what ever we do online, etc I would love to spend from 500 to 1000 or even more if it was a killer system.
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>I never asked him to leave the community, I don't see where you are getting this idea from.
I got it from you when you wrote the statements below.
>...........Is it really so hard to see what's going on here!? They're wrecking not just the community and the file archives that the community has come to rely on. They are trying to gouge money out of users for ancient software. ..................... I wish they would leave our Amiga community alone and go sell crap to Mac users instead, ................... This is in addition to buying formerly independent sites and using them to censor discussion in the community, I haven't seen one action from them that could be described as a benefit to the Amiga community.
It's still available here: http://ftp://ftp.exotica.org.uk/mirrors/aminet/biz/cloan/PPaint.lha Get it while you can...
After writing all of the above and more, you claim that you haven't asked A-Eon to leave our community???
I think most people would disagree with your perception of what you have written and what you intentions really are.
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I did say I wished they would, not quite the same as asking them to, but I perhaps should have been clearer on that point. And it's only because they insist on inflicting this Apple-crap on us. AmiStore isn't something that was in any way necessary, and it has already resulted in files being removed without warning from OS4Depot and Aminet, I don't see how that is a good thing.
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I did say I wished they would, not quite the same as asking them to, but I perhaps should have been clearer on that point. And it's only because they insist on inflicting this Apple-crap on us. AmiStore isn't something that was in any way necessary, and it has already resulted in files being removed without warning from OS4Depot and Aminet, I don't see how that is a good thing.
It's a good thing because it results in updates of software, and even new software like Sketchblock.
Not only is that a Good Thing, it's THE thing that is most sorely missed by all Amiga-like OSes and is absolutely pivotal to the continued survival of thoses OSes.
It doesn't matter how good OS4, MorphOS or AROS are if the only serious software available for it is 15 year old abandoned applications on the Aminet, or ports of software on mainstream OSes that run much better on those original platforms because they have so much more resources (s.g. CPU cores).
A-Eon are focusing on what the Amiga (all flavours) needs most - new content. So far the only cost of that is that one bunch of tools is now about £4 (for about 10 programs - a lot of work, anyway), and another program has to be downloaded from A-Eon's website instead of the Aminet.
And still people rage and complain rather than congratulate them for doing something that benefits all of us.
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And still people rage and complain rather than congratulate them for doing something that benefits all of us.
There is plenty of room for both. You should avoid mixing them up. Critique against trying to clean the freeware version off the internet is no the same as critique against the continued development of PPaint. In the same vein, praise for the continued development is not the same thing as praise for them asking for their files to be removed from Aminet.
So it is not very productive to think of A-EON/Cloanto as the worst thing that could happen to the Amiga, like some seem to do, and it is not very productive to tell the people who complain about the removal of the freeware version that they should shut up and stop complaining for reasons totally unrelated to the complaint.
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Legitimate question here, not flame bait or looking to start a discussion... Would a Mac port be out of the question? I seriously miss a decent pixel editor there and it would hugly increase the market, increasing funds available for further development on all supported platforms (of which the Amiga would be the biggest benefactor).
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Which versions can I still share on my Web server?
I currently have following 68K versions:
2.0, 2.1, 4.0, 6.0, 6.1, 6.3, 6.4, 7.0.
Am I allowed to share any of them?
I have password protected and modified the archive while waiting for answer.
http://www.som99.se/pp
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Legitimate question here, not flame bait or looking to start a discussion... Would a Mac port be out of the question? I seriously miss a decent pixel editor there and it would hugly increase the market, increasing funds available for further development on all supported platforms (of which the Amiga would be the biggest benefactor).
+1
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There is plenty of room for both. You should avoid mixing them up. Critique against trying to clean the freeware version off the internet is no the same as critique against the continued development of PPaint. In the same vein, praise for the continued development is not the same thing as praise for them asking for their files to be removed from Aminet.
So it is not very productive to think of A-EON/Cloanto as the worst thing that could happen to the Amiga, like some seem to do, and it is not very productive to tell the people who complain about the removal of the freeware version that they should shut up and stop complaining for reasons totally unrelated to the complaint.
+1
Pretty much my view too.
Personally I dont mind the removal, but I can see that its preferable to have availablity on that library.
But the logical leap people make between removal and malicious intent is not very productive. I see from other forums that those (like me) that support AOS development supposedly hates other platforms (like AROS and MorphOS). Nothing can be futher from the truth.
Every leap forward for any OS, be it AOS, AROS, MorphOS etc is a good one, and I bow to the efforts of the developers.
So I think the majority of posters here that can be seen defending AeonKit, doesnt do it over a fundamentalistic view of the OS's. 99% of the time I use Windows 7 anyhow, and the only Amiga related stuff I got is a pimped up A1200+various Workbench versions plus AOS 4 Classic in emulation.
I just get a bit baffled over the negativity when people try to develop something, be it hardware and software.
What YOU said and the tone you said it in is quite productive, like Matt H and biggun.
Reasonable and calm expression of the reservations you got without the "mandatory" indignation over the destruction of the community.
Its a bit like Pascal getting flak from some over his IndieGoGo shop. He works hard to CREATE, and ofcourse some are trying their best to drag his motivation thru the mud.
But I guess its easier to tear down than to create.
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+1 for OS X version, though it might seem like an unlikely development.
@som99
As far as I know, 7.1c was the only version released for free on Aminet. I posted the license of that on page 6. It's very hard to read, since it mixes all-caps legal stuff with informal and vague descriptions of your liabilities, some of which can be disregarded completely (like the 10k euro fairy tale), but the way I read it you have no rights to distribute it without a "prior written license". I don't know whether that refers to the terms described in the license included with the archive itself or to some separate distribution contract, but supposedly the former, in which case it's all right to host it.
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@som99
No copyright software should ever be distributed without a valid licence.
PPaint has never been freeware, public domain at any point. The Aminet version was a special licence to Aminet only.
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+1 for OS X version, though it might seem like an unlikely development.
@som99
As far as I know, 7.1c was the only version released for free on Aminet. I posted the license of that on page 6. It's very hard to read, since it mixes all-caps legal stuff with informal and vague descriptions of your liabilities, some of which can be disregarded completely (like the 10k euro fairy tale), but the way I read it you have no rights to distribute it without a "prior written license". I don't know whether that refers to the terms described in the license included with the archive itself or to some separate distribution contract, but supposedly the former, in which case it's all right to host it.
@som99
No copyright software should ever be distributed without a valid licence.
PPaint has never been freeware, public domain at any point. The Aminet version was a special licence to Aminet only.
Then I have to keep it at lockdown I guess, thanks for the reply.
Distribution of dead no longer sold software is somewhat a gray area where I make the decision to share rather then make the software get lost over time, so then I do it to preserve the software, this is not exclusive to Amiga but all systems. But as always if any authors or copyright holders tell me to take it down I do.
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Some fine tuning to predetermine the display mode in some future version might help with this. (if there isn't already an option I missed)
Something that may be useful to add is a mode requester. Allow the user to click an additional button before the image is loaded.
BTW which version were you using?
7.1
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No copyright software should ever be distributed without a valid licence.
The question here then is if the readme file included in the archive constitutes such a license, and if not, what license did "Aminet internet archives" (whatever organization or person that means) agree to? They should have had a lawyer write this thing.
PPaint has never been freeware
I beg to differ, at least by any common definition of freeware. The software was distributed free of charge. Freeware. That's not to say that this makes any difference legally when it comes to copyright.
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They should have had a lawyer write this thing.
I beg to differ, at least by any common definition of freeware. The software was distributed free of charge. Freeware. That's not to say that this makes any difference legally when it comes to copyright.[/QUOTE]
No keep the lawyers out of it. Just download 7.1 from were they posted it and buy (or not) the new version when it becomes available. I have a hard time seeing this as a bad thing.
Edit- I messed up the formatting - the top posts are Linde's bottom is mine.
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So versions sub 7.1 will note be avaliable elsewhere? Why does it matter then if I host them, anyone gets hurt by it?
If so it seems this falls under the title "Abandonware" in my book.
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If so it seems this falls under the title "Abandonware" in my book.
Abandonware has no basis in law. It's stealing, like if you see anyone elses processions not being used (like for instance a car or a house) and decide to take it.
The question here then is if the readme file included in the archive constitutes such a license, and if not, what license did "Aminet internet archives" (whatever organization or person that means) agree to? They should have had a lawyer write this thing.
If it doesn't constitute a license then every single distribution of it was illegal.
I beg to differ, at least by any common definition of freeware. The software was distributed free of charge. Freeware. That's not to say that this makes any difference legally when it comes to copyright.
Freeware is just slang for distributing for $0.00, companies are allowed to vary the price at any time. The shop that gave you a free sample yesterday, doesn't have to give you a free sample today.
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Abandonware has no basis in law. It's stealing, like if you see anyone elses processions not being used (like for instance a car or a house) and decide to take it.
It's different.
First of you can't compare it to taking someone elses car/house since you are using a copy of it, it's not anyone taking your house/car it's just a clone of it, I wouldn't care if anymone made a replica of my unused car/house in the other side of the world.
No one is stealing original floppies from anyone so no one is loosing any physical object.
How then would anyone get hurt if the software is not beeing produced/sold anymore?
If I stop supporting my old software I would just be happy if someone spread it so people still can use it if they want to.
If somene thought it worth their time to spread my old software I would take that as a compliment and be happy that there still are people out there that would like to use my old software.
I don't understand all defensiveness against spreading old unobtainable software.
Damn if people would not make digital copies of software there are many Terabytes of data that would be lost to the world, I'm glad people takes their time doing this (including myself).
We do not have a single case in Sweden where anyone lost in court in the matter of spreading "abandonware".
Also as I said, IF the aurthor or copyright holder do not want me to share something I remove it without questions asked.
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They should have had a lawyer write this thing.
It's quite simple, actually - you only have the rights that the copyright holder explicitly grants you. These rights can be outlined in a readme file or the documentation or they can be implied by something the copyright holder does.
By uploading to Aminet, the copyright holder obviously agrees that the Aminet team distributes it to all of its mirrors and that other people download the software from these mirrors - after all, that's the only reason for Aminet's existence.
But unless the copyright holder states in the readme file that the software can also distributed by other entities, via other means, the software is not freely distributable. It's just available for download from Aminet.
what license did "Aminet internet archives" (whatever organization or person that means)
The license was "We distribute it as long as they let us" - it's the same deal Aminet has with every other uploader. It's not written down like that anywhere, but it's implied by (a) the author uploading his stuff to a distribution network and (b) the distribution network offering a way of having files removed.
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Has anyone tried the 68k version of 7.3 with AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS? I would like to buy a copy if it works well :)
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How then would anyone get hurt if the software is not beeing produced/sold anymore?
The question is not "whether anyone is hurt by it", but rather, wether it complies to the law. And, as strange as it may sound, just because the owner does no longer sells or markets a product does not mean that the product is for free.
It may mean that you can currently get away by copying the product, simply because nobody is right now interested in sueing you. But it includes the risk that the owner, should the interest raise again in the future, may approach you and may make you responsible for redistributing copies of the product without valid licences, and this may be a pretty expensive experience. Hence, one can hardly recommend this risk to anyone. If you want to take it, well, it's your life after all.
Note further that even in case the owner went bankrupt, the copyright doesn't go away. It is just transfered. If I stop supporting my old software I would just be happy if someone spread it so people still can use it if they want to.
This is certainly a nice move of you, but then you should spell out this rule explicitly in your license, including a definition of how to identify "stop of support". You should include one when making your work available. If somene thought it worth their time to spread my old software I would take that as a compliment and be happy that there still are people out there that would like to use my old software.
Lawers, especially those that manage bankrupt companies, are not people that would be happy about such complients. Their responsibility is to evaluate the assets of the company, and software licenses are such assets. After all, if *you* would have invested money in such a company and it went bankrupt, you would also be very happy to receive at least a part of your investment back - and this implies fighting for copyright licenses and let people pay that use the software illegally. I don't understand all defensiveness against spreading old unobtainable software.
Look, it is your risk you take, but recommending this activity to other people without at least informing them on the risk is at least a bad advice. I wouldn't want to take it. Also as I said, IF the aurthor or copyright holder do not want me to share something I remove it without questions asked.
At that point, it may be already too late, actually. The damage has been done already if the owner starts to notice or care. *If* the owner has some interest in the software licenses, you would be of course made responsible for the missed income due to spreading software illegaly. Actually, this might turn out to be a very expensive experience.
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It's different.
First of you can't compare it to taking someone elses car/house since you are using a copy of it, it's not anyone taking your house/car it's just a clone of it, I wouldn't care if anymone made a replica of my unused car/house in the other side of the world.
You can compare it, because in both cases you're depriving someone. Copyright is an exclusive right to copy, they don't have to copy it but you that doesn't give you permission. You might refuse to sell something because you're trying to sell something different.
But I'd love to see you trying your pseudo law in court.
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@Thomas Richter - Thanks for your long and well written response.
Also to be clear I do not encourage anyone to share old software at all, that's up to the individual themself to decide if they want to do or not.
Also it's insane to think that someone would hunt after 20+ year old software that has not been sold in near that amount of time just to make some bucks, but sure it does happen but in all cases iv'e seen and one been a part of it was just a copyright watchdog and a cease and desist letter.
You can compare it, because in both cases you're depriving someone. Copyright is an exclusive right to copy, they don't have to copy it but you that doesn't give you permission. You might refuse to sell something because you're trying to sell something different.
But I'd love to see you trying your pseudo law in court.
I understand what you mean, but in many old Amiga software (and other systems) cases there are verry little to no chance of someone releasing the software again or any superior product and thus not wanting anyone to have the former software. There also is many cases where it's even hard to figure out (they don't know them selves) who owns the rights to something (and source long gone), many games are at that stage and it's just sad to see the software dissapere. I mean some people have put down a lot of work into something and then it's just a shame for that to be forgotten on old failing floppies.
That's just my opinion on it and my main reason why I archive and save a lot of old software and when saying software im talking about anything from games to productive suites etc.
I am surely not doing it to hurt anyone.
And in cases where a game is re-released on IOS/Android/Windows PC or something, who really thinks that the original Amiga version copies hurts those sales?, Amiga users buy it for the new system if they want it even if they have it for original hardware or not.
I think ive bought pretty much every single re-release of anything Amiga related on platforms that I own. I also buy every new Amiga release that comes even if not to common nowdays, I think the last thing I bought was tales of gorluth.
In short for me is preservation to hinder something from getting lost forever important.
PS: Sorry about my bad late night English.
Edit: Also some games and software are pretty much impossible to get your hands on these days on original media, myself are still looking for a boxed version of Moonstone but prices are 500$ and up which is hard to justify (still kicking myself for not buying it when I found it for 200$ two years ago), because some titles like that is hard to get hold and demand is higher then suply it's insane that people should not be able to play it anymore by using digital copies.
Edit: can anyone please suply some court cases involving private persons and distubution of 15+ year old software? Ive searched here in Sweden and can not find a single case, everything is just about new software and movies/music. Seems hard to find this anywhere from any place in the world.
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So versions sub 7.1 will note be avaliable elsewhere? Why does it matter then if I host them, anyone gets hurt by it?
If so it seems this falls under the title "Abandonware" in my book.
Certainly it does not. Ignoring the fact that abandonware is not a legal concept, it refers to abandoned software, which PPaint is clearly not now, nor has it ever been, being always at least distributed by it's original copyright holders and now developed by the new ones.
And PPaint 7.1 will run on any age of machine, so older copies are redundant.
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Has anyone tried the 68k version of 7.3 with AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS? I would like to buy a copy if it works well :)
Can't speak for Morphos but it will run on AmigaOS4, **but** oddly enough the AmigaOS4 version will run much better, not just faster because it's native but also it makes better usage of the more modern API functions and can promote screens to 24bit allowing smoother integration (no monitor resync it screen switching) and true colour previews in the Story Board.
The 68k version will attempt to run in low memory mode on AmigaOS 4 because it can't find any chip mem the PPC build knows about this and doesn't panic :-) The PPC version will never accidentally run the angus based blit library, so avoiding a crash the 68k can have when running on an OS4 machine.
If you buy both you get a discount...
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There is plenty of room for both. You should avoid mixing them up. Critique against trying to clean the freeware version off the internet is no the same as critique against the continued development of PPaint. In the same vein, praise for the continued development is not the same thing as praise for them asking for their files to be removed from Aminet.
Well said.
can anyone please suply some court cases involving private persons and distubution of 15+ year old software? Ive searched here in Sweden and can not find a single case, everything is just about new software and movies/music. Seems hard to find this anywhere from any place in the world.
ThoR has made some accurate observations about the legalities of abandonware, but as you have surmised, in terms of actual cases of being taken to court over abandonware, it just doesn't happen. Therefore the actual legal risk is effectively nil. And of course, as in my case, if one has no assets, there is no problem in being sued.
Note further that even in case the owner went bankrupt, the copyright doesn't go away. It is just transfered.
IANAL but my understanding is that this would be correct where the bankrupt company was bought by another one. But in some cases this doesn't happen and thus there is no rights holder any longer for that material.
In short for me is preservation to hinder something from getting lost forever important.
Your site seems have a password on it, that's not very helpful in terms of preservation. :-(
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And of course, as in my case, if one has no assets, there is no problem in being sued.
That depends on the country you live in. You could face a prison sentence or fines taken from future earnings. It may also affect your ability to gain employment.
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Can't speak for Morphos but it will run on AmigaOS4, **but** oddly enough the AmigaOS4 version will run much better, not just faster because it's native but also it makes better usage of the more modern API functions and can promote screens to 24bit allowing smoother integration (no monitor resync it screen switching) and true colour previews in the Story Board.
The 68k version will attempt to run in low memory mode on AmigaOS 4 because it can't find any chip mem the PPC build knows about this and doesn't panic :-) The PPC version will never accidentally run the angus based blit library, so avoiding a crash the 68k can have when running on an OS4 machine.
If you buy both you get a discount...
I can donate my Efika (PSU, Radeon and HD included) if you want to check it out. It has no key but 30 minutes is enough to check if it runs or not.
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@itix
Thats very generous of you. Don't worry, I have an Efika here and a Pegasos II to lend Andy :)
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Your site seems have a password on it, that's not very helpful in terms of preservation. :-(
Oh I am a uploader/top sharer on a closed retro torrent community so I share TB's a month :)
But regarding my site, it's still under construction, some parts are not password protected but flagged hidden so just knowing the right /ending makes em accessable.
Also I am in the process of bulding another server and merging everything from a bunch of current machines to that one (EXSi virtualization) and the goal of the new dual CPU Xeon machine is to handle the load of many machines. When that machine is done and all configurations and merging of ZFS etc is done I will work on the homepage again :)
If someone want access to something password protected just hit me up with a PM telling me what you want and i'll might make an account for you :) I already have a bunch of amiga.org users in the userlist :)
ThoR has made some accurate observations about the legalities of abandonware, but as you have surmised, in terms of actual cases of being taken to court over abandonware, it just doesn't happen. Therefore the actual legal risk is effectively nil. And of course, as in my case, if one has no assets, there is no problem in being sued.
Yea as said, going to court as Abandonware sharer in Sweden does not happen, court do not pick up on it and most common is as said cease and desist which also is not to common regarding old software but have happened (yes EA I am looking at you).
Edit: Now it's to off topic so I'll get back to the subject.
Great that PP will still be worked on, I will buy the latest PP version for 3.x when possible.
Edit: Just bought 7.3 :)
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Not sure how layers would work in an 8bit gfx program, layers based programs such as ahen , SketchBlock, reply on alpha blending and other advanced pixel manipulations like multiply add subtract that do not translate well.
Do you have an example of a 8bit program using layers so I can see how it works in relation to them?
I'm more oldskool painter and haven't used layers much, but couldn't it be quite useful with 8bits too if you could just draw layers over each other and underlaying layer would just be shown on transparent background color of upper layers? And you could rearrange layer order and enable/disable them.
You could for example have some texts in middle layer and then it would be easy to rewrite them without bigger hassle?
I could see advantages even with that without any more complex processing.
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I'm more oldskool painter and haven't used layers much, but couldn't it be quite useful with 8bits too if you could just draw layers over each other and underlaying layer would just be shown on transparent background color of upper layers? And you could rearrange layer order and enable/disable them.
Layers when using color palettes is still useful, it just becomes difficult to do alpha blending (though there is no reason you couldn't allow it in a limited form).
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I'm still hoping AmigaKit and A-Eon will prove they want to support all NG Amiga flavours by porting their products to MorphOS and AROS. We where told that 180 buyers was needed (which seems like a strange number since a recompile should be pretty simple) but then no step has been taken to see if there are 180 potential buyers.
Or at least tell us straight up that you are only interested in supporting classic Amigas and AmigaOS 4 if that is the case.
Either way is fine with me. You are running a business that fokus on these platforms so it makes sense. I just don't like this feeling of "we will tell people we support all flavours but in reality only support 68k and AOS 4". It feels ... dishonest.
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Hi
180 licences pays the developer and support costs. I have not had anyone yet contact me expressing an interest so far in another platform. I very much would be interested in any MOS users who would be interested in buying a licence so I may gauge genuine interest.
The good news is that we have now exceeded sales of 180 units on AmigaOS so we are half way there to paying for the next phase of development.
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Strange. I know for a fact someone offered to port it. For free even. And was turned down.
I would buy a licence. And if you get Art Effect 4 for MorphOS I would buy that too. The other programs, we'll see :)
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Ask the developer to contact me please :)
Ill add you to the top of the MOS customer list now
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Any update on when OctaMed SoundStudio or the Prisma Megamix sound card will be available for purchase? :)
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Many others have already bought 68k version for MorphOS use (me and several friends for example), and would probably buy the native version too, but I guess there isn't good (or at least visible) channels to express it...
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I read it in an IRC conversation. I can't remember the guys handle. Hopefully someone who knows reads this thread.
You should add a pledge page somewhere where people can write their names and e-mail.
Also, have you considered to buy some last generation (semi-) friendly Amiga games and port them too? Those that are quirky but almost working on NG. It would be fun to have some original Amiga titles to play. Foundation and Genetic Species comes to mind :)
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Also, have you considered to buy some last generation (semi-) friendly Amiga games and port them too? Those that are quirky but almost working on NG. It would be fun to have some original Amiga titles to play. Foundation and Genetic Species comes to mind :)
Has anybody tried DoomAttack on a NG system? :lol:
But seriously, it runs blazes on my A2000 with P96 screenmodes, multitasks well, and (once I created icons to start it better) is very system friendly. I love games like that, would pay good money for more like that for classic systems. Honestly am a bit tired of hardware-banging, having to use WHDLoad, or other hacks to get older software to run. Of course, it being an Amiga, it is what it is! ;)
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I have buyed the 68k version and in MorphOS the Fill Gradient works wrong.
I know that there is no MorphOS%&$#?@!support at the moment but perhaps you have an idea why It shows bad.
http://subefotos.com/ver/?32435d78c1a2f80c70eba431c0c60f9co.png (http://subefotos.com/ver/?32435d78c1a2f80c70eba431c0c60f9co.png)
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Has anybody tried DoomAttack on a NG system? :lol:
I just think it would be more fun to have some Amiga exclusive games, and not just ports of games from other platforms.
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I just think it would be more fun to have some Amiga exclusive games, and not just ports of games from other platforms.
Have you tried M.A.C.E.? I believe that's Amiga-exclusive? And pretty awesome, finally had a chance to play it at Amiga30 in Cali. :) Of course, it's just one game...
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Have you tried M.A.C.E.? I believe that's Amiga-exclusive? And pretty awesome, finally had a chance to play it at Amiga30 in Cali. :) Of course, it's just one game...
True, and then we have the Cherry Darling originals. However, I was thinking about old software A-Eon and AmigaKit could buy and port to NG.
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I would love to get Napalm fixed better...
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Pssh. They should be porting Unity.
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Pssh. They should be porting Unity.
Well there's plenty of valuable open source engines that should be ported first. Microsoft added Unity and Cocos to VS2015 the latter can be ported and there's also Mark Sibly Monkey-X language of Blitz fame. (V2 is scheduled)
Kamelito