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Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: tone007 on July 03, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
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Not even Windows 3.1 was this inexpensive!
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/07/02/upgrade-to-windows-8-pro-for-39-99.aspx
I wonder how it'll sell. I think the low price will make it move.
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Hmm, I can upgrade XP?
I have two copies of that, so I might upgrade one.
BTW - I paid less for Windows Home Server 2011 (which is Win7 based).
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How you liking WHS 2011, Iggy?
I recently switched from FreeNAS to WHS 2011 on my one NAS server and I'm loving it so far.
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Nice try but they'll have to pay me a lot more than 40 dollars to use their software.
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Ufff... Microsoft sofware makes me feel sick.
It's been seven years since I last had a Windows computer, and I will NEVER go back to that world of bloat, virusses, malware, registry nightmares, slowness, fragmentation and uglyness.
Linux covers my daily needs: it runs on my Pandaboard ES silent fanless computer wich boots in seconds with it's TI kernel. It's free, fast, light and secure. If I'd still be using Windows **** after all those years I'd feel pretty idiotic.
Other OSes I use are Amiga OS (on minimg, fpga-arcade) and Risc OS (on the Pandaboard ES, too).
WHY on earth would anybody use Microsft Windows these days? No, seriously: Lubuntu is SO easy that even my parents use it every day and I didn't have to teach them a single thing! Using M$ **** is nonsense.
The only Micro-**** software I run is...well, MSX-DOS on my Altera DE1 home-made MSX2+ computer :D
And it'll remain like that.
If I only had M$ Windows to choose from, I'm sure I'd leave computers for good.
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They will have a hard time getting most people to "upgrade" from Windows 7 even for $40. Win7 is really the best version yet.
I run a lot of alternative OS's but I still spend most of my time there.
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Ufff... Microsoft sofware makes me feel sick.
It's been seven years since I last had a Windows computer, and I will NEVER go back to that world of bloat, virusses, malware, registry nightmares, slowness, fragmentation and uglyness.
Linux covers my daily needs: it runs on my Pandaboard ES silent fanless computer wich boots in seconds with it's TI kernel. It's free, fast, light and secure. If I'd still be using Windows **** after all those years I'd feel pretty idiotic.
Other OSes I use are Amiga OS (on minimg, fpga-arcade) and Risc OS (on the Pandaboard ES, too).
WHY on earth would anybody use Microsft Windows these days? No, seriously: Lubuntu is SO easy that even my parents use it every day and I didn't have to teach them a single thing! Using M$ **** is nonsense.
The only Micro-**** software I run is...well, MSX-DOS on my Altera DE1 home-made MSX2+ computer :D
And it'll remain like that.
If I only had M$ Windows to choose from, I'm sure I'd leave computers for good.
You have to love the **** that people talk. Do you think Linux or MaxOS or Amiga OS would be any different it had 95% desktop market share ?
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Not even Windows 3.1 was this inexpensive!
Yeah... That's a deep discount, for sure. I think it kinda shows how desperate Microsoft is for a new runaway hit. They want some splashy numbers to throw around. Their last two operating systems have had fairly slow uptakes, and Office 2010 uptake has been glacial, as far as I can tell. Their biggest competitor is by far their own older products.
I wonder how it'll sell. I think the low price will make it move.
I tend to think you're right. Though it is interesting, selling the upgrade to Windows 8 from XP cheaper than the upgrade to Windows 7 is. It almost admits that Windows 8 has less to offer desktop users than Windows 7, which isn't far from the truth, IMHO.
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Windows 7 is the new XP, I have no doubts about that.
Just like people absolutely refused to give up XP when Vista (or even 7, for awhile) came out, same thing will happen with Windows 8 and W7. There's really no valid reason for any desktop user to go for it, and despite MS's claims everyone will just love the tile experience, people will avoid W8 like the plague on desktops.
Even at $40, I see no valid reason to "upgrade".
Not sure I would chalk it up to desperation, but more following the Apple model of cheaper, more frequent updates.
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Ignoring the windows phone xbox tile desktop, from reports I have read windows 8 is more stable and much quicker in parts than even win 7
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How you liking WHS 2011, Iggy?
I recently switched from FreeNAS to WHS 2011 on my one NAS server and I'm loving it so far.
It was kind of a pain to set up, but its helped tie all my hardware together.
Which reminds me, I need to update my signature.
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As Ilwrath says, this is a desperation maneuver; evidently they've picked up on the fact that a lot of people are very, very Not Happy about the idea of being forced into using a tablet UI on a desktop or laptop, and hope that making it ultra-cheap will persuade them.
I really don't think it will, though. Microsoft obviously doesn't care about desktop users enough to give them an interface designed for their machines, which every previous version of Windows has, and cutting the price without addressing the complaint only sends a message to disgruntled users that "no, we don't think your concern is legitimate, but we're hoping we can buy your compliance." That's just damned insulting, that is.
It's not going to work. This'll probably snare a few people who were on the fence, but the majority of people who do not want a tablet interface aren't going to suddenly want a tablet interface just because it's now cheap. All this is really going to accomplish is netting them less money from the faithful who were always going to upgrade anyway. Good one, Microsoft.
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(http://techgenie.com/imagemanager/plog-content/images/general/jumpstart/windows8-oct-2012.jpg)
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As Ilwrath says, this is a desperation maneuver; evidently they've picked up on the fact that a lot of people are very, very Not Happy about the idea of being forced into using a tablet UI on a desktop or laptop, and hope that making it ultra-cheap will persuade them.
It's more likely they are making it cheap to attract customers that would pirate it, if it were more expensive.
It doesn't matter how they price it, you'd still complain.
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It doesn't matter how they price it, you'd still complain.
Well yes, that was my point. The people who are unhappy about the direction Windows 8 is taking are not going to be swayed by price when they feel like their real concerns are being dismissed and ignored.
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99% of the people commenting in threads about Windows 8 here have likely not even tried it.
Walk the walk, then talk the talk - for or against.
I've used it for months, I've earned my right to comment about it, lol.
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Ignoring the windows phone xbox tile desktop, from reports I have read windows 8 is more stable and much quicker in parts than even win 7
In every deal though there is a potential deal breaker. MS has found this out regarding Win 8.
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Some system sellers are offering a free coupon as well if you buy a Win7 system now. I saw a few of those promotions as I was recently shopping for a laptop.
And I observe the following pattern as far back as my experience with MS Windows goes:
98SE good
ME BAD
XP good
Vista BAD
7 good
8 ...
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I've used Windows 8, I am using it now on my NetBook, its very poor, a) metro-apps aren't supported, b) I get 'limited connection' displayed when I re-open it meaning I have to reboot all the time.
Unfortunately, the general populace are sheep, Windows 8 will be a success amongst the general populace and soon accepted. Just look at the PR behind IE9, that song from the adverts went straight into the UK Top 10 (and probably elsewhere). People are easily suckered.
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It's more likely they are making it cheap to attract customers that would pirate it, if it were more expensive.
I'm sure that's part of what Microsoft is hoping, as well... But, my guess is regardless of what they price they use, it won't make a big inroads into the pirate market. I don't think much of the pirated Windows demographic pirates because they can't afford Windows. At least not in the North American markets where this price is being targeted.
I really think Microsoft wants to encourage the upgrade cycle as quickly as possible. I'm sure they'd love to splash some big sales numbers and get stockholders excited. Also, I'm sure they'd like to lower that % of users still on XP before they totally drop support of it.
As for Windows 8, itself... I've used it quite a bit on a test machine. I can't say I like that implementation of Metro very much. It's pretty clumsy to have Metro AND a desktop. Do one or the other, and do it right. Two half-baked schemes grafted together doesn't make a whole. However, at a price point that cheap... I might pick up a retail copy of it for said test box... I can't say I've had any real problems with applications, stability, or performance. It's W7 minus the messed up start orb, and plus a messed up tiles screen and wacky new preferences menus. (shrug)
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I really think Microsoft wants to encourage the upgrade cycle as quickly as possible. I'm sure they'd love to splash some big sales numbers and get stockholders excited. Also, I'm sure they'd like to lower that % of users still on XP before they totally drop support of it.
If Microsoft wants to lower the percentage of XP users, all they have to do is keep the price accessible, cut the minimum requirements and bring back the XP GUI/Explorer. But they've been steadfastly refusing to do any of that for three versions now, so I don't think it's likely.
Hell, they did that, I'd switch. I don't give a damn what's going on under the hood, as long as I'm not forced to put up with pointless rearranging of interfaces that were already perfectly fine because some concept department needs something to justify their budget with.
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If I can do a clean install with this upgrade license, I may just bite. I have dozens of XP Pro licenses.
I don't really like the Windows 8 interface at all, but neither do a lot of people, and if MS won't give us the shell that we want, someone else will.
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@commodorejohn
It is shocking that 40% of Windows users are using a ten year old OS with no support.
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It is shocking that 40% of Windows users are using a ten year old OS with no support.
It is a little unusual, but it's a very solid ten-year-old OS, and it doesn't have no support, yet. Again, if Microsoft would only quit screwing around with the UI, or at the very least allow users to fall back to all the old stuff (including the old Windows Explorer,) they'd probably get a lot of people to switch - they're just too stubborn to actually do that.
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It is a little unusual, but it's a very solid ten-year-old OS, and it doesn't have no support, yet. Again, if Microsoft would only quit screwing around with the UI, or at the very least allow users to fall back to all the old stuff (including the old Windows Explorer,) they'd probably get a lot of people to switch - they're just too stubborn to actually do that.
What is wrong with the GUI/UI of Win 7 ? Not much different to Xp and what is different I find an improvement.
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There are a couple issues with Windows 7. First off, not everybody likes big thick borders with rounded corners and transparency and stuff. Yes, it's pretty, but I find that in normal circumstances, that just distracts and wastes screen space. (And not everybody is using 1600x1200 mega-screens, so a little space-waste adds up pretty quick.) That wouldn't be a problem if they'd included the "Windows Classic" skin from XP, but as far as I can tell there isn't a way to get 7 to drop the glitz.
The bigger problems, though, are in the mucking around with the way things work. The new Start menu is annoying (I like hierarchical drop-down/pop-up menus, thanks,) and you can't get the old one back without resorting to a third-party hack. Keyboard shortcuts have been removed from Explorer. You can't tell it not to treat HTML files and associated "_files" directories as a single file anymore (the first thing I turn off in any new 98-XP install.) You can't turn off auto-refresh/sort of open Explorer windows, which means I'd have to ditch a handy sorting trick that's served me perfectly fine since Windows 95. I could go on at length (and I have (http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17952&p=170544#p170544) on another forum, so I'll just link to it, if you want an obsessive, exhaustive list.)
I know that fans of 7 will argue that this stuff is all an improvement, and I won't tell you that you're wrong for preferring it, but sometimes even objective, factual improvements just plain aren't worth the trade-off in familiarity. It's the same reason I don't use a Dvorak keyboard - maybe it would increase my typing throughput, but only after I'd spent who knows how long re-learning everything I already know on QWERTY, and it's just. not. worth. the. time.
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I've used Windows 8, I am using it now on my NetBook, its very poor, a) metro-apps aren't supported, b) I get 'limited connection' displayed when I re-open it meaning I have to reboot all the time.
a) if you have an intel graphics chip then set then save the following in a .reg file and execute it
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0000]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0001]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\{511F09E3-0635-4B11-B689-B08C00A0DF4E}\0000]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\{511F09E3-0635-4B11-B689-B08C00A0DF4E}\0001]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Intel\Display\igfxcui\igfxtray]
"ShowOptimalBalloon"=dword:00000000
Then you should be able to set the resolution to 1024x768
you won't be able to set the resolution to anything lower than 1024x768 with the standard resolution setting, so you'll need some way of switching back to your native res. Mine is an ASUS and there is software for switching the res using the keyboard which works fine.
It's very likely that you'll give up on metro and stick with your native res.
b) I never have anything suspend when closing the lid. Even on windows 7 I have problems suspending, plus I often leave things running and close the lid to protect it while carrying or shoving it under the sofa. I always have it set up as:
close lid: do nothing
power button: shutdown
sleep button: hibernate
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WHY on earth would anybody use Microsft Windows these days?
Perhaps because it lets them run the software (especially games) they want?
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Well, I have Linux installed on my PC. I put Win 7 back on it for awhile, but, it isn't as stable as Linux. I run VirtualBox and several OS's on my PC, including XP, which is great. Under Win 7, VirtualBox would crash all the time, cause my PC to not shut down properly, etc. Under Linux, I can install any OS I want with VirtualBox, and it is rock solid. I even run Linux on my PC at work, and run Win 7 under VirtualBox, so I can reliably use remote desktop. After many years of Windows use, starting with 3.1 (and DOS before that), remote desktop is the ONLY thing Windows has over Linux. Linux uses a type of VNC conversion, if my limited understanding is correct, for RDP. This is slow as can be, at least in my experiences, but works flawlessy with Windows. So, I run Linux for the stability, and Windows under VirtualBox, with the ethernet adapter bridged, so Windows has its own IP address. Works great, and never crashes. Just an opinion from a person with very limited knowledge. :)
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Windows 8 tried it and then uninstalled it the same day.
Win 8 = Vista.. there seems to be a pattern one crap OS followed by one good one, anyone remember Windows ME??
ME -- Xp (and no i didn't forget win 2000 which was a great OS but not for home users)
Vista -- 7
8 -- ?
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PS win 8 not even worth pirating....... waste downloads.
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The problem is that Microsoft has refused to fork Windows. Apple realised the desktop and tablet top were different environments and forked OS X into iOS. Microsoft seems to think people using a tablet are interested in running desktop software and vice versa. Standard Windows programs are shi'ite on a tablet, and tablet apps are painful on a desktop.
Metro should not be on a desktop and the castrated desktop should not be on tablets. Two OSs off of one source.
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You need to do your homework on what the different Windows 8 variants actually are (RT and Pro).
RT (ARM version) is very much a tablet only experience, but I readily agree W8 Pro and the hybrid Metro/traditional user experience it offers is still a complete nightmare to use on x86.
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The problem is that Microsoft has refused to fork Windows. Apple realised the desktop and tablet top were different environments and forked OS X into iOS. Microsoft seems to think people using a tablet are interested in running desktop software and vice versa. Standard Windows programs are shi'ite on a tablet, and tablet apps are painful on a desktop.
Metro should not be on a desktop and the castrated desktop should not be on tablets. Two OSs off of one source.
So are you saying they should have separate OS versions for Tablet V desktop or not ? I'm confused cos they do.
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My point exactly - Windows 8 is entirely forked.
Windows 8 RT for ARM devices. These will not run standard x86 code, obviously - though recompiling for RT is supposedly "easy". Loading of apps on these devices will occur in a very similar manner as iOS uses, ie; MS Marketplace.
These devices are the ones going after the iPad and Android tablets, consumption and simple data entry devices.
Windows 8 Pro: for x86 devices, the "Surface" Pro type tablets with x86 chips and your standard desktop machines. Installing apps on these will follow the same routine as it does now with Windows, no limitations.
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Windows 8 tried it and then uninstalled it the same day.
Win 8 = Vista.. there seems to be a pattern one crap OS followed by one good one, anyone remember Windows ME??
ME -- Xp (and no i didn't forget win 2000 which was a great OS but not for home users)
Vista -- 7
8 -- ?
Vista wasn't as bad as the moaners made out.
Windows 2000 was better than 95/98/98SE/ME. NT4 was the one that no games supported.
As you seem convinced that Microsoft make a good OS and then a bad one then Windows 8 is more important for you than it is for someone that will actually run it.
If you try to get used to it, you'd have noticed it's actually quite good. Although even Microsoft aren't suggesting that everyone should install the release preview on their everyday machine.
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NT wasn't marketed towards the end consumer in the least, of course it didn't support games well.
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If you try to get used to it, you'd have noticed it's actually quite good. Although even Microsoft aren't suggesting that everyone should install the release preview on their everyday machine.
See, with XP, I didn't have to get used to it. It built naturally and intuitively on the things I knew from Windows 95/98, and let me switch off anything I found awkward. "You don't like it because you haven't tried to like it" is such a weak argument that you don't even hear moms using it to get their kids to eat their peas.
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See, with XP, I didn't have to get used to it. It built naturally and intuitively on the things I knew from Windows 95/98, and let me switch off anything I found awkward. "You don't like it because you haven't tried to like it" is such a weak argument that you don't even hear moms using it to get their kids to eat their peas.
Meh... I think you're remembering with rose tinted glasses, because you like XP, now. The level of bitching about XP in the early days was immense, too. Yet everyone got over it, and loves it, now. 10 years ago, you had tons of people saying how they'd stick to 98SE forever. I don't think you'll find anyone wanting to run that much, anymore.
I really liked Windows 7's interface. Other than the retarded start menu that always needs expanding and extra clicks. IMHO, the old fly-out menus were faster, more organized looking, and required less clicks. Personally, I think a lot of people agreed with me that the new start menu was braindead. Microsoft's own studies showed how start menu usage had dropped dramatically. Unfortunately, they took this data as the green light to kill the start menu instead of fixing it. Ah well... That's Microsoft for ya... They never met a problem they couldn't find a potentially undesirable solution to. LOL!
Personally, I would probably like Metro, if the implementation were somehow complete. If the computer somehow functioned as a cohesive whole with the tile interface, I think it'd be a pretty interesting concept. But as it stands, Metro just becomes a strange tile-based launcher for applications into the legacy desktop, which adds a lot of confusion. Then, some applications will have both Metro and legacy versions... Then you can end up with one Internet Explorer launched in Metro, one in legacy, and they can end up with different toolbars and viewable content in each. d'oh! My less skilled users will be completely befuddled.
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There are a couple issues with Windows 7. First off, not everybody likes big thick borders
could be my eyes of course and how steady my hand is, but I do like them. So much easier to grab. On my Fedora KDE laptop I keep on cursing when trying to grab a window border to resize it :(
and on the main topic: I tried last years dev preview, earlier this years whatever preview... no way I'm going to move to w8, not even when they paid me.
Tom UK
PS, for completeness: big box on windows 7, up to date laptop on Fedora 17, netbook on MacOS, so no OS religion involved
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Meh... I think you're remembering with rose tinted glasses, because you like XP, now. The level of bitching about XP in the early days was immense, too. Yet everyone got over it, and loves it, now. 10 years ago, you had tons of people saying how they'd stick to 98SE forever. I don't think you'll find anyone wanting to run that much, anymore.
I'm speaking for myself and nobody else, thanks. I wasn't thrilled about the increased system requirements of XP over 98/2000, but the interface was never a problem.
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Really? Wow I am so excited let me tell you.
I sure hope I can install it over AROS or MorphOS.
Better yet, if it'll run on my classic Amiga and work as an update to Workbench 3.1 I'll be so very happy!
Thanks for posting this important piece of news!!! ;)
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Some system sellers are offering a free coupon as well if you buy a Win7 system now. I saw a few of those promotions as I was recently shopping for a laptop.
And I observe the following pattern as far back as my experience with MS Windows goes:
98SE good
ME BAD
XP good
Vista BAD
7 good
8 ...
Did you use Win2k? It was pretty solid.
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I can get 8 (and 7 and whatever else I want) for free from the school (MSDN Dreamspark library), but I'll be damned if I'll give up Win7.
No, MS, **** you, I do my computing on a computer. Not a phone, not a tablet, but an actual computer workstation.
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I don't really agree with the notion that Windows alternates between good and terrible.
In my experience, every version of windows since 2000 gets better under the hood and worse in the user interface.
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Vista wasn't as bad as the moaners made out.
Windows 2000 was better than 95/98/98SE/ME. NT4 was the one that no games supported.
As you seem convinced that Microsoft make a good OS and then a bad one then Windows 8 is more important for you than it is for someone that will actually run it.
If you try to get used to it, you'd have noticed it's actually quite good. Although even Microsoft aren't suggesting that everyone should install the release preview on their everyday machine.
Vista ?? On an business network environment was a pain and hence why i stayed with XP even for personal computers. Win 2k was good but not for everyday use that's why most people stuck with win98se.
Win 8 is not important to me at all and i did spend time on it enough to know it is not worth upgrading for my business clients and home users without a lot of pain and which also doesn't bring that much more then win 7 compared to XP to win 7. I have had the beta on 2 test machines and i know enough to NOT to bother upgrading to it at any time soon.
But to each his/her own... but like i said for me it is not even worth pirating.
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How was Win2000 not suited to everyday use?
I used it exclusively from the time it was released until XP SP2 came out, and other than encountering a glitch while playing Metal Gear Solid, I never had any issue with it.
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I found Windows 2000 absolutely bulletproof as well. In fact I still have it on a machine at my shop, running along just fine. Machine doesn't do a heck of a lot, sits there and prints invoices, but rock solid.
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Yeah, I've been experimenting with 2000 lately, and I don't find it any less capable for general use than XP. It's not without its inconveniences (lack of a WPA supplicant, unless your wireless driver provides one,) but that's more a function of its age; as far as design goes it's perfectly solid.
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I've replaced all my Windows installations with Windows 8, I like it.
(http://thecooksden.zipgolfer.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ipadthai.jpg)
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Not even Windows 3.1 was this inexpensive!
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/07/02/upgrade-to-windows-8-pro-for-39-99.aspx
I wonder how it'll sell. I think the low price will make it move.
I'll take a pass on this one.
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I've replaced all my Windows installations with Windows 8, I like it.
...context? Sarcasm (Y/N)?
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Just like people absolutely refused to give up XP when Vista (or even 7, for awhile) came out, same thing will happen with Windows 8 and W7.
XP was out for a while before the majority stopped saying they'd never switch to it because they loved 98SE. It was too slow and bloated, looked funny etc.
What changed between XP and Vista being released is that lazy journalists started picking up online bitching and releasing it as news.
I ran Windows NT4 when everyone else was running 95 or 98. Then switched to Windows 2000 as soon as it was out, then XP, Vista & 7. But the story doesn't end there, I'm now running Windows 8. It's been a relatively painless move. I find the low price for upgrades interesting, it's not a tactic they've tried before.
On the other hand I've tried running Linux and I don't get what the fuss is about. It runs on my NAS, my TV, my router & my phone, but I don't see it ever running on my desktop. I tried it before I switched from an Amiga to Windows and I've tried it multiple times since.
Operating systems are like religion & I'm an atheist, so I'll stick with Windows and leave all the fanatics to their one true OS.
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Windows-promotions on AO? What has the World come to? :(
As for the topic, Windows 8 is a desperate attempt to get Windows back into the game for touch-sensitive devices, as well as a badly-disguised stab at publishers - anyone wanting to make apps for the new UI needs to go though MS first.
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As for the topic, Windows 8 is a desperate attempt to get Windows back into the game for touch-sensitive devices, as well as a badly-disguised stab at publishers - anyone wanting to make apps for the new UI needs to go though MS first.
Because you used the word "desperate" means you are desperate to make Microsoft look bad. What you say is true though, it is an attempt to get back into the game, but adding an emotional word just makes you sound a little bitter.
LOB applications for enterprises are supported in some circumstances.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/uk_faculty_connection/archive/2012/04/03/installing-enterprise-metro-apps-without-using-microsoft-store.aspx
You may even be able to work round some of the imposed limitations.
http://www.ghacks.net/2012/08/17/how-to-add-non-store-apps-to-windows-8/
For delivering apps to consumer tablets then having everything go through the app store is actually a good idea. It's worked well for Apple, the alternative is Android and it's not really worked out too well there.
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Because you used the word "desperate" means you are desperate to make Microsoft look bad. What you say is true though, it is an attempt to get back into the game, but adding an emotional word just makes you sound a little bitter.
LOB applications for enterprises are supported in some circumstances.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/uk_faculty_connection/archive/2012/04/03/installing-enterprise-metro-apps-without-using-microsoft-store.aspx
You may even be able to work round some of the imposed limitations.
http://www.ghacks.net/2012/08/17/how-to-add-non-store-apps-to-windows-8/
For delivering apps to consumer tablets then having everything go through the app store is actually a good idea. It's worked well for Apple, the alternative is Android and it's not really worked out too well there.
My own thoughts are obviously subjective - this isn't a news site, and I state my own opinion on matters. That being said, I'm not deliberately trying to get Microsoft look bad.
Microsoft were actually on the touch-wagon quite early - there was a Tablet-PC edition of Windows XP, and there's been a few computers using it.
However, the interface hasn't been specifically designed for it, and the market for tablets didn't explode until a few years ago - while Windows 7 has some support for touch sensitive computers, it's basically the same as the Tablet-PC version of XP from about ten years ago.
On the other hand I'd be very surprised if Windows 8 didn't have touch interface as a main priority.
When it comes to the Microsoft store, it's not the idea of a store that I don't like - on the contrary, I've been using it for a some time to buy Xbox games and have no complaints.
Sideloading Metro apps doesn't remove the need for them to be digitally signed. Last time i checked, those certificates can cost quite a bit, so getting around the store is not a non-trivial issue.
Microsoft could have added a setting, similar to the one in Android, so that users can opt to install this kind of software at their own risk.
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Sideloading Metro apps doesn't remove the need for them to be digitally signed. Last time i checked, those certificates can cost quite a bit, so getting around the store is not a non-trivial issue.
On Windows/Windows PRO you should be able to setup a trust of your own certificate authority. I don't know if you can do that on Windows RT.
However making it hard to install unsigned apps is actually very important. Social engineering to persuade people to disable signing checks would make tablets very insecure.
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So basically, I need to set up my own CA, sign the application myself, and then install it using a non-standard method? Yeah, that'll improve conditions for open source programmers and the like. :D
I see your point with security - it's just that I don't agree that it should be taken that far. Ah well, that's a discussion for another thread. :)
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Can the win8 upgrade be installed as a fresh installation?
I've got a laptop with the administrator password locked out and I'd just like to wipe the whole thing.
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How about the "control" of this new windows? control of contents, privacy...
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So basically, I need to set up my own CA, sign the application myself, and then install it using a non-standard method? Yeah, that'll improve conditions for open source programmers and the like.
Blame Apple, they proved it works.
Making a free delivery channel is like leaving your house unlocked in case you need to send a plumber round while you're out. The open source developers will have to learn how to fund their hobby, because nobody else should be forced to subsidise it.
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**sarcasm alert**
At least they dropped their price, but sheesh they are still charging for their software? It should be free how dare they charge for it! Hell, when I go to work I don't always expect to be paid for what I produce, it might be too much in the eyes of some. Evil Microsoft......
Windows is crap anyways and will soon go the way of the dinosaur... How dare my company run all of their high-end engineering department on it. They should have chosen some light, efficient, obscure OS with a user base in the hundreds. Heck, even our beloved Amiga might someday rise from the ashes to become relevant again.
Sheesh sounds like my Amiga user group from 1992 - we're the same pathethic negative bunch today. Its cool to critique the software but can we leave some of the Microsoft, and for that matter, Apple bashing back in the early 90's......
My opinion only.... like everyone else here....
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Its cool to critique the software but can we leave some of the Microsoft, and for that matter, Apple bashing back in the early 90's......
I can quit bashing MS, but I'll quit bashing Apple when they pry the keyboard out of my cold dead hands.
Rectangle patenting SOB's.....
If you recall it was patent trolls that drove the final 50 nails into the C= coffin.
Apple is just plain evil, for hells sake they sue Preschools and a mom and pop grocery stores. Soon they will file a lawsuit against Jesus for referencing Apples in the garden of Eden. ***no sarcasm, this is what I actually believe***
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Meh. Every big company is Evil. Google included. It's just that Apple is one of the largest tech companies now and as such one of the Evil-est.
Nevertheless Apple sucks, but still not as hard as Oracle. That company is a Deathstar sized vacuum of suck.
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Meh. Every big company is Evil. Google included. It's just that Apple is one of the largest tech companies now and as such one of the Evil-est.
Nevertheless Apple sucks, but still not as hard as Oracle. That company is a Deathstar sized vacuum of suck.
Oracle...
Poor, poor Sun... we barely knew ye...
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What changed between XP and Vista being released is that lazy journalists started picking up online bitching and releasing it as news.
Didn't stop it from having a big impact on Vista's fortunes.
For delivering apps to consumer tablets then having everything go through the app store is actually a good idea. It's worked well for Apple, the alternative is Android and it's not really worked out too well there.
However making it hard to install unsigned apps is actually very important. Social engineering to persuade people to disable signing checks would make tablets very insecure.
Absolutely not. Windows is and has always been an open platform, at least in the area of third-party software development. We might all have a good laugh about "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" but the fact is that Ballmer was absolutely right, albeit in a completely apeshÃt way; any version of Windows lives or dies by its third-party support. Windows 95 was buggy as hell, but it captured developer loyalty quickly because it combined NT's easiness of coding (far less of a mess than Win16!) with a halfway-decent amount of backwards compatibility with existing software, and introduced DirectX, which made getting games to work on a variety of hardware much, much easier. Even Vista only saw a lot of what limited adoption it got because developers took a shine to DX10 and suddenly gamers had to switch if they wanted Bioshock to look as pretty as possible.
The Windows Store is a naked cash-grab on the part of Microsoft, at the expense of all of their third-party developers. Any talk about security is just obfuscation; they saw how much Apple was getting by screwing over iOS developers, and they wanted a piece of that pie. But the fact is that they're not Apple, they've never been Apple, and if they try to go up against Apple on Apple's home turf, they're going to find that they're not as good at being Apple as Apple. I think it's going to be their undoing. They want developers to switch to Metro and the Windows Store, so that they get more money, but they've left in the option for unsigned (i.e. old) software, because it would've been suicide not to.
Some developers might switch, but how many are going to decide that it's just not worth it? Some of them are already outspoken critics; Notch of Mojang has outright refused to take part in certification, and while Minecraft might not be huge in terms of purchase price and necessity, that means that every single Minecraft player who uses Windows 8 will be getting accustomed to non-Windows Store installation right off the bat. Other high-profile developers, like Valve, have expressed discomfort with the idea, and no friggin' wonder - you think they like being asked to bend over? Microsoft may very well have initiated their own developer revolt. Add to that the fact that Windows 8 already has more negative buzz before release than Vista did a year after, and who knows what's going to happen to it.
The open source developers will have to learn how to fund their hobby, because nobody else should be forced to subsidise it.
And screw you, too.
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I don't have Windows RT, only pro, but I suspect Windows RT (what's on the Surface) will be locked down. You can only run ARM metro apps on it, so none of the intel stuff will work anyway, so I suspect they'll use the opportunity to lock you into the Microsoft store....
How about the "control" of this new windows? control of contents, privacy...
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I don't have Windows RT, only pro, but I suspect Windows RT (what's on the Surface) will be locked down. You can only run ARM metro apps on it, so none of the intel stuff will work anyway, so I suspect they'll use the opportunity to lock you into the Microsoft store....
Correct only RT is locked down. MS looked at the market, saw the mess of the open model that Android uses and decided to go with Apple's model. Though money is a huge part of it, it is likely that MS does not want their brand new tablet OS to be a virus riddled POS for people to take pot shots at. Closed market will stop 99.99% of virus creators.
As for the doom and gloom of MS making everything locked down, you can still install regular Windows apps on the traditional desktop. I think that the closed model sucks but I am a power user, as we all are here. For the general population it won't matter that you have to get Apps from the App store and App store only.
Time will tell if we see this new OS overthrow Android and Apple. It has a good chance of doing so as in some ways it is much better. They wrote RT from scratch, the performance is better than iOS and Android.
Anyways who cares, let's get drunk insted. :pint:
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I don't have Windows RT, only pro, but I suspect Windows RT (what's on the Surface) will be locked down. You can only run ARM metro apps on it, so none of the intel stuff will work anyway, so I suspect they'll use the opportunity to lock you into the Microsoft store....
I've not seen it, but supposedly there are arm desktop apps as well as what used to be called metro apps. You are however locked into the Microsoft store, until there is a jailbreak at least.
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I've not seen it, but supposedly there are arm desktop apps as well as what used to be called metro apps.
According to the Windows-on-ARM overview Microsoft published, desktop APIs on WoA will only be supported for the packaged Microsoft software (Explorer, IE, Office.) Because, you know, yay double standards.
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Yes, the RT ARM based devices such as surface can be locked because, well nothing but Metro Apps will run on the RT tablets anyway. I suspect there is no legacy desktop on the Surface, because it would be useless, it only makes sense on the intel version.
Speaking of which, anyone care to guess what percentage of early Surface buyers realise they can't actually run anything but (the currently 200+) metro apps? That they'll never be able to run those old Windows programs? My guess is it's less than half, judging by the fud that's out there right now....
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Speaking of which, anyone care to guess what percentage of early Surface buyers realise they can't actually run anything but (the currently 200+) metro apps? That they'll never be able to run those old Windows programs? My guess is it's less than half, judging by the fud that's out there right now....
FALSE: There are over 5000 apps in the app store at the moment. From that site over 5200 are compatible with ARM based RT.
http://www.neowin.net/news/report-windows-store-now-has-over-5000-windows-8-apps
Also the only people stupid enough to buy an RT tablet and think it is a full PC capable of running legacy code should have bought iPad's in the first place. Though for 70% of internet users a facebook app, angry birds, fruitninja and bubble pop is all they care about anyway. Therefore Win8 already has "more than enough apps"
Though be honest, if Win8 is going on every single desktop sold there will be more Win8 apps then any other ecosystem in less than a year.
MS development environments really make the other guys stuff look like a pile of **** to be honest. People will be pumping stuff out like no tomorrow.
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Yes, the RT ARM based devices such as surface can be locked because, well nothing but Metro Apps will run on the RT tablets anyway. I suspect there is no legacy desktop on the Surface, because it would be useless, it only makes sense on the intel version.
The irony is that this was another blown chance for Windows to become a truly multi-architecture system and allow some variety in PC hardware design, just like NT/2000 back in the day. They've had an architecture-agnostic API for years now, and they clearly want to move into nontraditional hardware markets, but they keep screwing it up - first by doing nothing with multi-architecture NT outside the server market and pushing crappy WinCE (and descendants) on palmtops and other mobile devices, now by finally actually using the same API across multiple platforms, but intentionally nerfing it for anything other than tablet use by locking out the traditional desktop GUI.
I was actually hella excited for Windows 8, back when the first damn thing they announced for it was that it was going to be multi-architecture - man, I want computers to start branching out again. But then they went and showed us what Metro was going to look like, and my hopes, they were dashed...
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but intentionally nerfing it for anything other than tablet use by locking out the traditional desktop GUI.
No desktop GUI in Windows RT?
O'RLY?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GOyOqzLKRKg#t=73s
Though it remains to be seen if anything other apps can be used in desktop mode.
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FALSE: There are over 5000 apps in the app store at the moment. From that site over 5200 are compatible with ARM based RT.
http://www.neowin.net/news/report-windows-store-now-has-over-5000-windows-8-apps
87 percent of those apps are free and 94 percent of the apps made for the x86 version of Windows 8 can also run on Windows RT.
I'm down with free-as-in-dollars software, but if 87% of what's in the Windows Store is free, then only 13% (688) are complex and/or good enough that the developers thought they could reasonably charge money for them. That says less "broad developer support" and more "shovelware," to me; I suspect a lot of Metro demo applications with things like stock tickers, etc. Interesting, maybe, but not what you buy a system for. (And nothing that's going to get Microsoft any revenue, either.) And of those 688 commercial apps, how many are productivity mainstays like Photoshop or other essential software? Are you going to buy a Windows 8 system and then find 4,500 free apps and 700 Angry Birds clones?
Also the only people stupid enough to buy an RT tablet and think it is a full PC capable of running legacy code should have bought iPad's in the first place. Though for 70% of internet users a facebook app, angry birds, fruitninja and bubble pop is all they care about anyway. Therefore Win8 already has "more than enough apps"
Contrariwise, why would anybody who needs what Windows RT offers not already have an iPad or Android tablet?
Though be honest, if Win8 is going on every single desktop sold there will be more Win8 apps then any other ecosystem in less than a year.
That's assuming that it is going on every single desktop sold - I don't know why it would be, when it's plainly not intended for desktop use at all. As far as I know Microsoft hasn't announced any plans to stop selling Windows 7 yet; even from the Wikipedia article, mainstream support is scheduled to end sometime in early 2015, and extended support in 2020 - and we all know how thoroughly the end-of-support has killed XP.
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No desktop GUI in Windows RT?
O'RLY?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GOyOqzLKRKg#t=73s
Though it remains to be seen if anything other apps can be used in desktop mode.
As I said earlier, only the packaged MS programs will be allowed to use it. (Unless, presumably, you jailbreak it.) Yes, it's still there, but they've nerfed it for anybody but themselves (because I guess it's all very well to stick third-party developers with the burden of converting their desktop software to Metro, but it'd just be too much work for poor lil' Microsoft to lead the way with their software.)
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I'm down with free-as-in-dollars software, but if 87% of what's in the Windows Store is free, then only 13% (688) are complex and/or good enough that the developers thought they could reasonably charge money for them....
.... productivity mainstays like Photoshop or other essential software? Are you going to buy a Windows 8 system and then find 4,500 free apps and 700 Angry Birds clones?
By this argument all Android software is garbage since it is also free. Only Apple has been able to get users to pay for Apps thus far. Also you are implying people are using their tablets for "serious work" They are $700 facebook machines. Good for taking notes and little else at this point. Would you run photoshop CS5 on an iPad? No you would use the FREE APP to make **** instagram looking pictures.
Contrariwise, why would anybody who needs what Windows RT offers not already have an iPad or Android tablet?
Microsoft Office, installed on every single Win8 tablet, plus easy integration into corporate environments and virtualization support without having to pay licensingfees. iPad is an expensive toy to watch iTunes movies and play angry birds + facebook. Most Android tablets at least have removable storage unlike the iPad. So I take them more seriously than an iPad.
In the end MS tablets will have more useful software on them then for reasons already stated.
....when it's plainly not suitable for desktop use at all.
This comment illustrates that you have not tried Win8. The "metro" start menu is basically the same as the start menu except it fills the entire screen. It is perfectly useable as a desktop OS. People will be butthurt about it for a year or two and then they will be used to it. People were pissed when they went from 3.1 to 95 if you recall. HURR DURR I HAVE TO PRESS START TO SHUT MY COMPUTER OFF!!!!!!
All things considered I will continue using my Android tablets because I do not use them for serious business work. Though I do lust after the surface. If anything I would buy a Surface Pro, but I'm kinda frugal so I probably won't. I will not upgrade my PC's to Win8 until I buy a PC as they work perfectly fine with the OS's they came with. I have some older machines with XP and a couple of laptops with Vista (that work fine as they have 1 gig of ram) and a Windows 7 desktop.
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Metro isn't that bad - it's perfectly usable with a touch interface, and isn't that bad when using a mouse.
The store isn't a bad thing either, nor is software signing.
Not allowing people to install apps at their own peril, if that's what they want, is bad.
And yes, tablets are media consumption devices. Computers will still be used, although consumers will probably move a large part of their surfing, video watching, Farmvilling and Facebooking to more portable formats. After all, that's why netbooks were all the rage a few years back.
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By this argument all Android software is garbage since it is also free. Only Apple has been able to get users to pay for Apps thus far.
I'll have to submit on this to someone who actually has an Android device, but I've witnessed my (staunchly Android) coworkers agonizing over which game to buy, so I'm going to have to say that that isn't the case.
Also you are implying people are using their tablets for "serious work" They are $700 facebook machines. Good for taking notes and little else at this point. Would you run photoshop CS5 on an iPad? No you would use the FREE APP to make **** instagram looking pictures.
The problem is that I'm not the one implying that - Microsoft is. They want everybody to move to Metro, whether on the desktop or on a tablet, and they want everybody to get their "apps" from the Windows Store so that they get a cut of it. They're intentionally trying to blur the boundaries between tablet and PC because they think it'll make them more money - any confusion that results is their own damn fault.
And that still doesn't answer the question: does the Windows Store have its bases covered? If it goes to market with only piffly little tablet "apps," then good luck making any headway in the PC market, especially since it'll be competing against Windows 7 there.
This would have made so much more sense if it had just been "Windows for Tablets." Instead they're trying to have it both ways, and they're going to wind up shooting themselves in the foot.
Microsoft Office, installed on every single Win8 tablet, plus easy integration into corporate environments and virtualization support without having to pay licensingfees.
God Almighty, you think people are going to make productive use of Office on tablets? Look at that video - it's just a straight-up port of desktop Office! The guy has to stab at a tiny little menu option four times just to get it to recognize! "Easy integration into corporate environments" compared to other tablets, maybe, but it's still simpler for work purposes just to have a damn workstation or laptop. And weren't you just arguing that nobody uses a tablet for productivity to begin with?
iPad is an expensive toy to watch iTunes movies and play angry birds + facebook. Most Android tablets at least have removable storage unlike the iPad. So I take them more seriously than an iPad.
No argument there. But if these much-vaunted "average users" who spend 90% of their time being Facebook mall-rats and watching cats on YouTube want what the iPad and Android already have, why would they have held out this long for Windows 8?
In the end MS tablets will have more useful software on them then for reasons already stated.
More useful software on them than what? Than other tablets? Maybe. But you yourself have been arguing that nobody uses a tablet for work anyway. More useful software than a PC? Not a friggin' chance. Even PCs running 64-bit Windows versions with no 16-bit support have the last seventeen years' backlog of Win32 software to choose from.
This comment illustrates that you have not tried Win8. The "metro" start menu is basically the same as the start menu except it fills the entire screen. It is perfectly useable as a desktop OS.
Well, if you'll look, I did revise that - it's not intended as a desktop OS. Yes, you can use it as one, but it doesn't play to the strengths and capabilities of a PC at all. The Start screen is basically the same as the Start menu, yes - except that it wastes ridiculous amounts of screen space so that even for a Start folder with a moderate number of items you have to scroll through screens and screens' worth of oversized tiles. That's a thing that makes some amount of sense on a tablet - it's absolutely bogus on a PC. Metro is clearly designed for tablets and made to work with PCs as an afterthought.
People will be butthurt about it for a year or two and then they will be used to it.
Didn't happen with Vista - and that was a precedent-setter. People now know that they can make Microsoft listen to reason (somewhat) if they simply hold off on upgrading as long as possible.
Though I do lust after the surface. If anything I would buy a Surface Pro, but I'm kinda frugal so I probably won't. I will not upgrade my PC's to Win8 until I buy a PC as they work perfectly fine with the OS's they came with.
So even you, outspoken Windows 8 advocate, aren't actually that hot for it. Yes, Microsoft's fortunes are certainly looking good.
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Cool! I'm going to sell my Amigas so I don't miss out on this amazing opportunity!
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They want everybody to move to Metro, whether on the desktop or on a tablet,
No they don't. You missed out Windows Server 2012, which is the server version of Windows 8, and they aren't pushing you to move to windows store apps on that either (it's not called Metro anymore).
You seem very upset about Windows 8.
Not allowing people to install apps at their own peril, if that's what they want, is bad.
Forcing apps to be signed is the only way to save people from themselves. It worked out for Apple.
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No they don't. You missed out Windows Server 2012, which is the server version of Windows 8, and they aren't pushing you to move to windows store apps on that either (it's not called Metro anymore).
Okay, so the server version is exempt. Big frickin' deal. Are you going to be able to get the server version for home use? If so, is it going to be the same price as the home version? Because if it's not, then it's pretty clear where Microsoft wants users to go.
Also, they're not calling it Metro anymore, because of the tremendous amount of negative reaction to Metro, but it's clear that they haven't actually changed anything significant about it.
Forcing apps to be signed is the only way to save people from themselves. It worked out for Apple.
And how many other terrible things have been justified by saying it's "necessary" because people just don't know what's best for themselves? Vendor-controlled software distribution is a hideous idea and I don't give a damn if someone thinks it might help security. Security at what price? The freedom to run whatever software you God-damn please? No thanks.
It worked for Apple because Apple has spent decades creating a user culture that wants to be coddled and have their hand held and never once have to think about the fact that their computer doesn't run on magic and that they might sometimes have to understand it a little bit in order to keep it running well. (And even Apple has vulnerabilities, though they like to pretend they don't.) Windows users are not, fundamentally, part of the iOS user culture, and they never have been. Before that, they often weren't even Mac users. Windows users are used to having the freedom to do as they please, and when Microsoft arbitrarily decides to take that away, all the rationalizations about "security" in the world aren't going to hide the fact that their freedom is being stolen as part of a naked cash-grab.
You seem very upset about Windows 8.
That's because I am. You seem to think that that's a way to dismiss my arguments, as if the mere fact that I have an emotional reaction to it means that it's therefore not grounded in rational thinking. I'm upset about Windows 8 because it's another step taken towards the death of general-purpose computing and into a future where computers are mere appliances that are only allowed to perform a selected set of functions chosen by the vendor, which will be acting in its best interests with the user's as an afterthought.
I don't want that to happen, and I don't want to have to fall back on Linux to avoid it, either. Windows has been the only really open commercial OS for years now, with Apple slowly sewing up Mac OS X into as much of a closed environment as iOS. I don't want that to go away, but it's clear that Microsoft does.
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FWIW, I found Server 2012 looking very tempting with all the Hyper-V stuff included for 'free'. VMWare could find themselves in deep ****.
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I don't want that to happen, and I don't want to have to fall back on Linux to avoid it, either. Windows has been the only really open commercial OS for years now, with Apple slowly sewing up Mac OS X into as much of a closed environment as iOS. I don't want that to go away, but it's clear that Microsoft does.
Someone said Linux? :angel:
Joking aside, isn't this the sort of logical end result though? Apple is making filthy amounts of money, and a certain share of their reputation as "reliable" comes from a relatively walled in garden where they can control the number of moving parts. Microsoft would kill for a setup like that, and if the consumers (and you're always a consumer, never a user) basically don't care, that's what will happen.
(this is ignoring the possibility for sweet sweet app revenue from a "microsoft store of course but Im sure that crossed their minds too)
A lot of the explosion of computers in the last few years came, I think, from people who fundamentally don't like computers. THey like what the computer let's them do (facebook, porn and angry birds, as far as I can tell), and when other options came along (phones, tablets, locked in computer choices) that did those things simpler and easier, they went for them.
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The reasons for dropping the Metro moniker were not at all to do with public outcry, it was due to a trademark conflict.
For those interested in MS server offerings, feel free to buy WHS 2011 for $50 OEM. Works a treat and no tile/metro stuff in sight.
That being said, MS's advertising and lack of clarity between RT and Windows 8 is staggering and it will bite them. I had a friend of the family pre-order a Surface RT tablet, they travel a lot and the guys wife just loves this Windows shareware game she's been playing for years. A weird, goofy little breakout type game that likely only 200 people on earth still play, a game that will never get ported to RT. He figured "Windows is Windows" and bought the thing.
Said game is a Windows x86 game, not Windows RT. He's essentially bought a $600 paperweight, the little game she planned to play on the machine will not work in the least on RT. To say he's pissed off is an understatement.
MS's advertising on this is sketchy and extremely misleading to the common man. I know the diff between RT and Windows 8, and know they don't mix. But most people just see "Windows" and make an assumption of "hey, it's windows, this will work". It won't, traditional x86 Windows programs will not work on RT in the least in their native form, even if you could sideload them.
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Said game is a Windows x86 game, not Windows RT. He's essentially bought a $600 paperweight, the little game she planned to play on the machine will not work in the least on RT. To say he's pissed off is an understatement.
Someone bought a $600 device solely to play one shareware game? No wonder Apple sells so many iPads.
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As I said, they travel quite a bit. They figured it'd be a lot easier than lugging their 6 pound older WinXP laptop around, and figured the Surface RT machine would kill two birds with one lighter and more compact stone and allow her to play her little game, check her facebook, email, and etc. when they were on their vacations down south.
So not purchased solely for playing a shareware game on, but definitely a big factor that's now out the window entirely.
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The average user doesn't want or need general purpose computing, they want to post to facebook, skype (a Microsoft company), watch videos, see their photos, they don't give a darn if the thing is locked down, in fact they are happier because they never really understood virus protection anyway.
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Joking aside, isn't this the sort of logical end result though? Apple is making filthy amounts of money, and a certain share of their reputation as "reliable" comes from a relatively walled in garden where they can control the number of moving parts. Microsoft would kill for a setup like that, and if the consumers (and you're always a consumer, never a user) basically don't care, that's what will happen.
Yes, it probably does seem logical through the lens of "MAXIMIZE PROFITS, MINIMIZE COSTS" isolated boardroom thinking. But it falls apart when you take even a cursory look at the types of people who use Windows, how they use it, and what they want out of it. There probably are people who don't care about using software that's not directly approved by the OS developer, but don't the tablet advocates like to ballyhoo the fact that all of them are supposedly moving to tablets? And there's a lot of people who do care about that.
Let the people who want a featureless Facebook slab go to tablets, fine. I'll look with mild distaste on them, but what the hell, it's no skin off my nose. For those of us who actually do use Windows for its vast selection of third-party software from any and all sources, though (and there are many more than Microsoft seems to think,) this is a catastrophe, and that's going to be reflected in the reaction of Windows power-users to this.
The average user doesn't want or need general purpose computing, they want to post to facebook, skype (a Microsoft company), watch videos, see their photos, they don't give a darn if the thing is locked down, in fact they are happier because they never really understood virus protection anyway.
You say that like it's an excuse for taking the capability away.
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Not even Windows 3.1 was this inexpensive!
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/07/02/upgrade-to-windows-8-pro-for-39-99.aspx
I wonder how it'll sell. I think the low price will make it move.
Thanks for the tip! I'm on it!
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Okay, so the server version is exempt. Big frickin' deal. Are you going to be able to get the server version for home use? If so, is it going to be the same price as the home version? Because if it's not, then it's pretty clear where Microsoft wants users to go.
You missed my point, you're not forced to use windows store apps on the home or pro version either.
And how many other terrible things have been justified by saying it's "necessary" because people just don't know what's best for themselves? Vendor-controlled software distribution is a hideous idea and I don't give a damn if someone thinks it might help security. Security at what price? The freedom to run whatever software you God-damn please? No thanks.
Don't buy an Arm windows 8 tablet then, the intel based tablets aren't locked into the windows store either.
It worked for Apple because Apple has spent decades creating a user culture that wants to be coddled and have their hand held and never once have to think about the fact that their computer doesn't run on magic and that they might sometimes have to understand it a little bit in order to keep it running well.
If by that you mean that they sold something locked down and while some people got a bit upset about it, the majority got used to the idea and it's actually worked out really well for them.
That's because I am. You seem to think that that's a way to dismiss my arguments, as if the mere fact that I have an emotional reaction to it means that it's therefore not grounded in rational thinking.
You're right, I don't think your reaction is grounded in rational thinking.
I'm upset about Windows 8 because it's another step taken towards the death of general-purpose computing and into a future where computers are mere appliances that are only allowed to perform a selected set of functions chosen by the vendor, which will be acting in its best interests with the user's as an afterthought.
I'm already running windows 8. I haven't used the windows store once. I didn't even create an account yet, so I actually can't. Microsoft haven't any control over what software I install. I'm not sure what your point is.
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You missed my point, you're not forced to use windows store apps on the home or pro version either.
Not yet, no, because it would be suicide for them to try that. But it's plainly the direction they want to go, which is why they've been telling developers outright that Metro is the future of Windows and they better hurry up and switch. As soon as they think they can get away with it, I guarantee you that Win32 is going bye-bye.
If by that you mean that they sold something locked down and while some people got a bit upset about it, the majority got used to the idea and it's actually worked out really well for them.
Yes it has - because they already cultivated a user base with a pathological fear of complexity. (But even they had to take advantage of introducing a new platform to accustom its users to the idea, and they're only gradually moving Mac OS X there.) Microsoft hasn't. They're trying to position themselves as saving the user from something a lot of Windows users don't need or want to be saved from.
You're right, I don't think your reaction is grounded in rational thinking.
If you think I'm irrational, why are you trying to reason with me? And on what grounds do you say my arguments are irrational?
I'm already running windows 8. I haven't used the windows store once. I didn't even create an account yet, so I actually can't. Microsoft haven't any control over what software I install. I'm not sure what your point is.
My point is that that's where they're going with this. Yes, they haven't gotten there yet, because even they could tell that it would be suicide to try and move to a closed model all at once. Microsoft clearly wants to move Windows to being a closed system, and Windows 8 shows which steps towards that goal they think they can get away with at present. If this succeeds, Windows 9 will push it still further, until such time as they feel they can jettison the old openness completely.
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Paying to downgrade your system is just ridiculous.....
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Once again, Windows RT (on the Surface) is locked down, Windows 8 (on everything else) is not.
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Once again, Windows RT (on the Surface) is locked down, Windows 8 (on everything else) is not.
Not yet.
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Windows-promotions on AO? What has the World come to? :(
:lol:
Well, since the thread is here anyway, I have a quad core I7 with fast (and enough) ram, a fast gfx card, etc system running Win7 today. For me, Win7 is working truly great. It's fast, and it's stable, and it runs everything I need in a very good way. Once I got settled with Win7, I have never looked back at XP. I also fail to see the need for "Metro" on my desktop. I really can't see the Unique Selling Point for Win8 to a happy Win7 user as myself?!
So, could anyone a little more educated than myself about the issue please tell me your top 5 reasons (in descending order) to why I should pick up on this offer of $39.99 Win8 upgrade?
Please fill in your arguments here:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
;)
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So, could anyone a little more educated than myself about the issue please tell me your top 5 reasons (in descending order) to why I should pick up on this offer of $39.99 Win8 upgrade?
But TMHG, don't you understand? It's only $39.99! Yes, only $39.99! But wait! There's more! Order now and you'll also receive this genuine Ginsu steak knife absolutely free! Yes, you get the tablet-desktop-phone-XBox hybrid operating system of the future and the steak knife, all for the low, low price of only $39.99! Call now! Operators are standing by!
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Because "Metro" apps are going to suck the lifeblood out of all other apps. Why develop for Windows 7 and below and when you can get tablets and desktops with Windows 8 development.
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Why develop for Windows 7 and below and when you can get tablets and desktops with Windows 8 development.
Because Win32 software will work on Windows 7 and on Windows 8 (and any future versions up to the point where Microsoft decides they can get away with killing it,) and Win32 is actually designed to be suitable for desktop use, as opposed to trying to cram tablet UI down users' throats whether or not they're actually on a tablet?
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I ask again - John, have you tried Windows 8?
I hate the tiles nonsense as much as anyone else and I will not be upgrading to 8, just curious if you have tried it.
It is delusional to think they are going to kill the "install what you want" on the open Windows 8 (non RT) version. Even Apple hasn't gone that gonzo yet.
MS to Adobe:
MS: "Hey guys, we're changing what we had for 30 years - you now have to make a special version of Photoshop and I'm afraid that means you can't sell it anywhere but our stores and the users will not be dealing with you on your own product at all. OH, by the way - we take 30% of the profits"
Adobe (and every other major vendor): "**** you"
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I ask again - John, have you tried Windows 8?
I hate the tiles nonsense as much as anyone else and I will not be upgrading to 8, just curious if you have tried it.
No, I don't have a spare system that meets its requirements and I hate VMs. Have you tried it? Is there anything you get from hands-on use that makes these design decisions not incredibly stupid?
It is delusional to think they are going to kill the "install what you want" on the open Windows 8 (non RT) version. Even Apple hasn't gone that gonzo yet.
It seems insane to me, too - but they've put heavy emphasis on promoting Metro development, they've outright locked the free version of Visual Studio into only building Metro apps, (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/) and simply, it's the logical extension of what they're trying to do. They're making these moves because they want a slice of Apple's "app-store" pie; the only reason to leave in a way around that is because they know damn well it would be suicide to try cutting it at this point in time. When they think they can get away with it, mark my words, it will be gone.
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I ask again - John, have you tried Windows 8?
I hate the tiles nonsense as much as anyone else and I will not be upgrading to 8, just curious if you have tried it.
It is delusional to think they are going to kill the "install what you want" on the open Windows 8 (non RT) version. Even Apple hasn't gone that gonzo yet.
MS to Adobe:
MS: "Hey guys, we're changing what we had for 30 years - you now have to make a special version of Photoshop and I'm afraid that means you can't sell it anywhere but our stores and the users will not be dealing with you on your own product at all. OH, by the way - we take 30% of the profits"
Adobe (and every other major vendor): "**** you"
And what's to stop them?
Adobe can say **** off but then what? Even if they start throwing all their weight behind Mac OS and Linux, that just means 90% of the install base won't buy the product anymore.
Microsoft controls the market. When they say dance, everyone goes home and get's their monkey.
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:lol:
Well, since the thread is here anyway, I have a quad core I7 with fast (and enough) ram, a fast gfx card, etc system running Win7 today. For me, Win7 is working truly great. It's fast, and it's stable, and it runs everything I need in a very good way. Once I got settled with Win7, I have never looked back at XP. I also fail to see the need for "Metro" on my desktop. I really can't see the Unique Selling Point for Win8 to a happy Win7 user as myself?!
So, could anyone a little more educated than myself about the issue please tell me your top 5 reasons (in descending order) to why I should pick up on this offer of $39.99 Win8 upgrade?
Please fill in your arguments here:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
;)
So far, the reasons to upgrade are:
Supposedly faster/more stable
Metro, if you like it
No Metro, if you don't
eight is bigger than seven
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No, I don't have a spare system that meets its requirements and I hate VMs.
You've been railing about this for months, if not an entire year or longer and you've never even tried it? :rolleyes:
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You've been railing about this for months, if not an entire year or longer and you've never even tried it? :rolleyes:
Correct. I didn't have a spare system and I hated VMs then, too.
I ask again: is there some kind of mysterious revelation, incommunicable in mortal tongues, that is obtained by running the demo version that somehow makes these design decisions not horrid?
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eight is bigger than seven
Well, that's lame. Microsoft did windows 98 years ago, and that was a way bigger number. Maybe this "8" business is just for pocket calculators or something :lol:
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Correct. I didn't have a spare system and I hated VMs then, too.
I ask again: is there some kind of mysterious revelation, incommunicable in mortal tongues, that is obtained by running the demo version that somehow makes these design decisions not horrid?
Yea, the start menu is gone and has been replaced with the tile screen. Other than that it's Windows as usual. Not much difference from Win 7. I never use the start menu anyway, so it's removal didn't bother me. [win]-r to launch programs or just tap [win] and start typing to find stuff just like on win 7. Didn't bother with the metro apps, have no interest in them on the desktop. Looks nice for tablets though.
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It seems insane to me, too - but they've put heavy emphasis on promoting Metro development, they've outright locked the free version of Visual Studio into only building Metro apps, (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/) and simply, it's the logical extension of what they're trying to do.
The old article you linked looks quite wrong, or maybe MS changed their mind after. You can get Express 2012 for "desktop" right now:
http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-express-for-windows-desktop
I was quite looking forward to upgrading to it as I read about it last month. It supports 64-bit EXEs and it sounds like they now may include code coverage tools. Pretty damn good product for free, not sure there is even a need for the paid versions anymore. You had me freaked out there for a while reading that article.
I don't disagree with you all that much about Win8 though. It may be fine now but I would think indeed they will want to lock everything down to Metro and jettison the legacy stuff at some point. Otherwise what is the point of all this. Just try to imagine where it will be 10 years from now. I don't really blame MS for trying this though as I can't imagine how relevant Windows will be if it has to compete with the ease of use and installation of apps and virus issues it's at right now compared to the brain dead experience people are coming to appreciate on mobile/tablet devices.
I do actually think an App store is a great thing though that solves a lot of problems. However there's no way in hell as a developer I will pay $49 for the privilege of providing a free app for it though. If I was ever forced to provide an app that I spent thousands of hours of my time to work on for the benefit of YOUR OS ... I'll be over to the Linux camp. That's just a bit of a slap in the face even if it's not much money.
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The old article you linked looks quite wrong, or maybe MS changed their mind after. You can get Express 2012 for "desktop" right now:
http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-express-for-windows-desktop
Hmm, okay. Thanks for the correction.
However there's no way in hell as a developer I will pay $49 for the privilege of providing a free app for it though.
Wait, are they seriously charging even for getting free software added to the Windows Store? Who would bother with that? And where the hell are those 4700 free apps coming from, then? Did they hire an overseas code farm to spend the last six months cranking out Metro apps so that it wouldn't be barren on release?
(Unless, of course, those "free" apps are actually "paid for by in-program ads" apps...)
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Wait, are they seriously charging even for getting free software added to the Windows Store? Who would bother with that?
Actually I think I just read the $49 thing a page or two ago in this thread. I've learned to not trust anything I see typed on forums or social media, I should have verified that first. But it checks out. The relevant part is near the end of this link:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/apps/br230836
"Windows 8 represents the single biggest platform opportunity available, and business terms of the Windows Store represent a developer-first point of view. The registration fee for individuals is $49 USD, with a $99 USD fee for companies. The revenue share is 70%, but when an app achieves $25,000 USD in revenue—aggregated across all sales in every market—that changes to 80% revenue share for the rest of the lifetime of the app."
So I guess you are in it for at least $49 unless there is some other accommodation for free apps.
Something I find interesting is all this app store stuff seems so bent towards making money. Understandable for Microsoft. I guess I'm more of a free software kind of guy where I like to write and use free software. I'm not sure Microsoft ever even thinks or cares about that, but they could end up irking a lot of the free software types if eventually you HAVE to go through an app store and HAVE to pay to get stuff on it. If I wanted to make money, I wouldn't actually have any problem with their fee structure, but the free software people are in a completely different head space where they won't want to pay $1 for the right to do anything, it's a barrier thing.
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50 bucks, and cough up 30% of your revenue, or stick it on your website for the cost of hosting, and keep all the revenue.
Out of curiosity, what cut does places like Steam and Desura take, for selling your game through them?
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They should raise the entrance fee to $1,000 to keep the shovel ware out of the marketplace. The Apple ecosystem is choking on it.
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They should raise the entrance fee to $1,000 to keep the shovel ware out of the marketplace. The Apple ecosystem is choking on it.
Given that they're proudly announcing 4700 free apps, I think shovelware is what they're counting on...
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Given that they're proudly announcing 4700 free apps, I think shovelware is what they're counting on...
In communist china, crapware writes YOU
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Given that they're proudly announcing 4700 free apps, I think shovelware is what they're counting on...
That's about how many apps are approved on the iOS app store every 10 days.
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That's about how many apps are approved on the iOS app store every 10 days.
I assume there's a bit of hyperbole in there? Still, yeesh. Again I'm glad to have never gotten into iOS...
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Not yet, no, because it would be suicide for them to try that. But it's plainly the direction they want to go, which is why they've been telling developers outright that Metro is the future of Windows and they better hurry up and switch. As soon as they think they can get away with it, I guarantee you that Win32 is going bye-bye.
You're being paranoid. Microsoft still support 16 bit apps on 32 bit versions of Windows 8. 64 bit versions include Hyper-V so you can run a virtual OS for older programs.
Windows 8 & Windows RT being based on the same code base even allows you to buy an intel tablet that is backward compatible with all your old apps, plus all the new ones.
When it no longer makes financial sense to include backward compatibility then I can imagine they will drop it. I don't see that happening any time soon though. There is more chance of Microsoft abducting you and taking you to their Area 51 facility to perform medical experiments.
Why am I trying to reason with you? Because you derail a lot of thread and I thought I'd give it a try.
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Windows usually gets blamed for a 3rd party app crashing or giving you hell.
By itself Windows 7 is ok, nothing special, but at 10GB minimum install you don't get much. Most people still just want to run some programs and surf the net. Also add the necessary security to prevent viruses and a system crash. 10GB???
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:lol:
Well, since the thread is here anyway, I have a quad core I7 with fast (and enough) ram, a fast gfx card, etc system running Win7 today. For me, Win7 is working truly great. It's fast, and it's stable, and it runs everything I need in a very good way. Once I got settled with Win7, I have never looked back at XP. I also fail to see the need for "Metro" on my desktop. I really can't see the Unique Selling Point for Win8 to a happy Win7 user as myself?!
So, could anyone a little more educated than myself about the issue please tell me your top 5 reasons (in descending order) to why I should pick up on this offer of $39.99 Win8 upgrade?
Please fill in your arguments here:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
;)
So far, the reasons to upgrade are:
Supposedly faster/more stable
Metro, if you like it
No Metro, if you don't
eight is bigger than seven
You who have tested it - is it really faster than Windows 7? Mor stable? I myself perceive Win 7 to be quite fast already and certainly very stable.
I love the last one there, "eight is bigger than seven" :lol:. I'm sure I saw that in some movie...?
:)
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I have tested W8 in VM and I did not like it at all, I see no need for me to change on my Windows machine from W7.
Can't upgrade since I have not owned a genuine Windows copy since Windows 95. Since me like most build our computers ourself to get what parts we want we don't get any OEM licence and I can't justify the price tag of buying Windows when I dual boot Linux and use Linux more then Windows.
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Well, I tried it, and still have it installed under VirtualBox on my Linux machine. Don't like it at all. The first time you run it, you have to log in through Microsoft, not locally, so they get your information, and all that got me was a call several times from someone who couldn't speak english, wanting me to pay them for keeping my computers running correctly. It gave me great pleasure to tell him that I don't run Windows, I use Linux, and hang up. I used to be a big Windows guy, and even still run XP on a couple of machines for stuff I can't run under Linux. I just wish Linux would catch on, and give Microsoft some competition, but I just don't see that happening. I also have a couple of Macs, and I like those really well. I guess Mac has a better chance of giving them competiton, but usually Mac stuff is more expensive. Although, if anyone has ever opened up a Mac, the build quality, in my opinion is great. They really pay attention to detail.
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On release date, donate the amount upgrading would have cost you to the EFF or your favourite linux distro
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You who have tested it - is it really faster than Windows 7? Mor stable? I myself perceive Win 7 to be quite fast already and certainly very stable.
I love the last one there, "eight is bigger than seven" :lol:. I'm sure I saw that in some movie...?
:)
To Be honest, when I tested it it seemed just like windows 7 to me except with this really colorful first login screen (Metro). I ran it in a VM which made it a bit buggy as I'm pretty sure Metro likes real Video card performance. I would have probably upgraded my main win7 to it but I don't dink around with upgrades in the middle of the school year just in case I let the smoke out. I can't speak to all the developer whining (looking at you, Steam!). It really does seem like a decent MS product to me.
Having said that, since XP I always wait for SP1 before I upgrade.
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As far as I can tell, Windows 8 is rock solid.
The Metro interface isn't that nice when you use a mouse, but it works on the Xbox, so I guess they're aiming for consistency or something.
I reverted to Windows 7 again - there's not really any point in upgrading if you already have Windows 7 and don't have a touch screen.
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Well, I tried it, and still have it installed under VirtualBox on my Linux machine. Don't like it at all. The first time you run it, you have to log in through Microsoft, not locally,
I have never logged in through Microsoft, you just click the create local account button during setup.
so they get your information, and all that got me was a call several times from someone who couldn't speak english, wanting me to pay them for keeping my computers running correctly.
Seems like you got a call from one of the boiler room scams. That is not Microsoft's fault.
"You will never receive a legitimate call from Microsoft or our partners to charge you for computer fixes."
http://www.microsoft.com/security/online-privacy/avoid-phone-scams.aspx
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/08/tech-support-phone-scams-surge/
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/913890/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgHQDhoAc6s
I reverted to Windows 7 again - there's not really any point in upgrading if you already have Windows 7 and don't have a touch screen.
The speed optimisations and the new task manager have me hooked & I don't have a touch screen.
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The speed optimisations and the new task manager have me hooked & I don't have a touch screen.
I didn't notice any speed differences apart from Windows 8 booting a bit faster. The Task manager is sexy indeed, but it's not enough to make me pay for an upgrade.
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LOL desperate w@nkers.
Whilst Win 7 is a piece of sh1t compared to XP (for efficiency, I can simulate every atom in the world if you give me enough CPU/memory so yes 7 is no replacement for XP Pro and you're an idiot if you think it is sorry) it is far superior to the clusterfuk that is Win 8 with that stupid insistence on iOS style forcing you to hack it out of the system completely. It's like buying a bottle of coke and saying it's OK as long as you don't drink it.
Millions of PCs with that w@nk OS will be sold just like 95/98/ME/XP/Vista/7 before it, whether we buy 'upgrades' or not won't make a difference to the balance sheet in the accountants office of M$ LOL
Oh and you can clearly see since the death of Jobs Apple are slowly going back to their overpriced unnecessary bollox product upgrade ways with useless 'improvements' so they will be heading down the pan soon.
Oh wait neither of them will because there is NO ALTERNATIVE thanks to Jobs letting Gates have access to the Mac prototype and its OS. Great! Isn't it time Paul Allen/Steve Ballmer/Bill Gates died of cancer too? the filthy bastads for destroying what was once a fun pass time (using computers)!
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I didn't notice any speed differences apart from Windows 8 booting a bit faster. The Task manager is sexy indeed, but it's not enough to make me pay for an upgrade.
Justifying the cost is a different argument, but the download upgrades are temptingly cheap. Microsoft are terrible at retail pricing and marketing. They are doing better this time round, although I wouldn't actually buy a disc version from a store when the download version is so much cheaper. No matter what box design I got.
My laptop is about three years old and it feels much snappier than Windows 7.
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You're being paranoid.
When it no longer makes financial sense to include backward compatibility then I can imagine they will drop it. I don't see that happening any time soon though. There is more chance of Microsoft abducting you and taking you to their Area 51 facility to perform medical experiments.
I really don't think I am. That's the logical conclusion of pushing Windows towards a closed environment; if this succeeds, I really think it's only a matter of time.
Millions of PCs with that w@nk OS will be sold just like 95/98/ME/XP/Vista/7 before it, whether we buy 'upgrades' or not won't make a difference to the balance sheet in the accountants office of M$ LOL
That remains to be seen. Vista already proved that Microsoft aren't as almighty as they think they are, and there's been more negative reaction to Win8 before release than Vista had a year after. I doubt we'll get to see a release-day scenario where nobody buys it (much as I'd love that,) but I don't think it's a given that adoption is going to be widespread.
On release date, donate the amount upgrading would have cost you to the EFF or your favourite linux distro
That's actually a great idea - though I'll be putting it towards either ReactOS (http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html) (a hell of a lot closer to the Windows I want than this crap) or Haiku. (http://www.haiku-os.org/)
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That's actually a great idea - though I'll be putting it towards either ReactOS (http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html) (a hell of a lot closer to the Windows I want than this crap) or Haiku. (http://www.haiku-os.org/)
Yeah, for sure. Any of the little guys can use the funds a lot more than the corporate giants.
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What is it with the aggressiveness in general on A.org lately?
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I really don't think I am. That's the logical conclusion of pushing Windows towards a closed environment; if this succeeds, I really think it's only a matter of time.
It's only the logical conclusion if your logic is biased. If Microsoft did that then nobody would upgrade and eventually jump ship. It's all just FUD.
That remains to be seen. Vista already proved that Microsoft aren't as almighty as they think they are, and there's been more negative reaction to Win8 before release than Vista had a year after.
There are plenty of apple and Linux fan bois to spread misinformation, as is evident from this thread. They'll have to come up with something else to bitch about when it ships, or get comical ali to help them.
"On April 7, 2003, two days before Baghdad fell to US forces, al-Sahhaf claimed that there were no American troops in Baghdad, and that the Americans were committing suicide by the hundreds at the city's gates. He made this statement while standing on the east bank of the Dijli (Tigris) River in the center of Baghdad. His back was to the river and reporters could see two American Army M1 Abrams tanks behind him on a road on the far side of the river"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf
I doubt we'll get to see a release-day scenario where nobody buys it (much as I'd love that,) but I don't think it's a given that adoption is going to be widespread.
Admitting you'd love nobody to buy it proves how biased you are. I'm running it now and it's nothing like what you imagine it to be.
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There are plenty of apple and Linux fan bois to spread misinformation, as is evident from this thread. They'll have to come up with something else to bitch about when it ships, or get comical ali to help them.
As the resident linux fanboy, it pretty much doesn't matter if Win8 makes pizza and gives you a wank in the morning. Windows is irrelevant to my needs, and irrelevant to the open source movement as a whole, other than a yardstick to measure against in one specific, limited area (desktop computing).
However, It IS interesting from a general technological perspective though, and the paths taken by the major players will of course influence the competition along the way. Since Microsoft is the 900 pound gorilla in the kiddy pool, when they move, it makes a splash.
Likewise, it will be interesting to see the piracy rates, compared to earlier versions. Will the lower price point convince people to buy it, or will they pirate it at the same rate as before.
And I can tell you with quite a bit of certainty that CommodoreJohn is certainly no linux fanboi ;)
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Admitting you'd love nobody to buy it proves how biased you are.
Did I ever claim any kind of neutrality on this subject? No. No, I did not. I will freely admit it: I want this to fail, because it's a dangerous step in the wrong direction for what is currently the only really open commercial desktop OS, and it's also a bad design decision for Windows to try and target two wildly disparate devices with one UI. It's a bad idea all around, and it needs to fail correspondingly hard.
What you're doing here is conflating neutrality and objectivity to imply that, because I have an opinion at all, my opinion is "biased" and therefore valueless. By this logic, the only person whose opinion should be taken seriously is the person with no opinion at all, and debate is inherently pointless.
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And I can tell you with quite a bit of certainty that CommodoreJohn is certainly no linux fanboi ;)
Damn straight. But that's another thread ;P
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What you're doing here is conflating neutrality and objectivity to imply that, because I have an opinion at all, my opinion is "biased" and therefore valueless. By this logic, the only person whose opinion should be taken seriously is the person with no opinion at all, and debate is inherently pointless.
No, you lack objectivity. I know that because your argument is flawed and only serves to back up your bias.
You're suggesting that you are entitled to an opinion that is provably wrong.
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No, you lack objectivity. I know that because your argument is flawed and only serves to back up your bias.
You're suggesting that you are entitled to an opinion that is provably wrong.
You keep saying that I'm wrong, but all I'm seeing, looking back over this thread, is you telling me that my predictions are wrong because they haven't come to pass yet. Well yes, that's why they're predictions and not statements of fact at present time. You may think they're highly improbable while I think the opposite, but there's no way to say that either of us is wrong on that count until we observe how things play out.
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I heart linux AND windows
How ya like them apples?
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Microsoft has released a video in response to this amiga.org thread.
Here is the video:
http://youtu.be/IY2j_GPIqRA
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I heart linux AND windows
How ya like them apples?
The only good Apple products had 6502's in them, and ran a Microsoft OS. Search your heart, you know it to be true.
-just sayin'
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I heart linux AND windows
How ya like them apples?
Depends. Do YOU like them Apples (http://apple-history.com/images/models/colorclassic.jpg)?
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Depends. Do YOU like them Apples (http://apple-history.com/images/models/colorclassic.jpg)?
I like them all...
I am a hardware/software slut.
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I didn't notice any speed differences apart from Windows 8 booting a bit faster. The Task manager is sexy indeed, but it's not enough to make me pay for an upgrade.
I like the copy file dialog... :)
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You keep saying that I'm wrong, but all I'm seeing, looking back over this thread, is you telling me that my predictions are wrong because they haven't come to pass yet. Well yes, that's why they're predictions and not statements of fact at present time. You may think they're highly improbable while I think the opposite, but there's no way to say that either of us is wrong on that count until we observe how things play out.
Your opinions are however based on your provably wrong gems, such as:
The problem is that I'm not the one implying that - Microsoft is. They want everybody to move to Metro, whether on the desktop or on a tablet, and they want everybody to get their "apps" from the Windows Store so that they get a cut of it.
You justify every thing with "it's clear this is the way they are going", when to someone who is objective it's actually not clear at all. If you take what Microsoft have said at face value then you wouldn't be making these claims. If you're going to ignore what is here now & what Microsoft say about the future, then you deserve to be called on your paranoia.
Microsoft have just added an app store, it's not that big a deal. If they allowed desktop apps too then at least developers might sort out their installers.
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Hi,
Well now,
Just like always the Amiga loonies are debating about one of the most awesome, powerful, great OS's in the world. Face it old billy gates and ballywick took a OS that was nothing and programmed it up to be 100 times more powerful then anything Amiga has done or will try to do in the future (AROS and MORPHOS, OS4.0/1. Their computers are totally awesome with some of the latest tech that you guys only wish you had, even apple is having a hard time keeping up with Microsoft and Intel.
So while you guys are arguing about how awesome morphos and aros are, and trying to play the original doom on your so called great OS's, I will be playing the new Doom 3, and the new Far Cry 3 on my new amazing machine, built by me, which has 8 cores, and graphic cards that can move a 640 x 400 pixel block as a sprite. Where gunshots sound real, graphics so real you think you can almost drink the water.
Yes, you all keep telling me how bad the PC with windows is, while I will just tell you that this is what Amiga should have been, but you all blew it by saying we want a PPC processor, which is a weak outdated piece of junk that might play the original doom.
Break down and buy a modern PC, with windows 7 at least and start enjoying playing great games again. By the way todays Macs are a step up over the original Amiga 1000.
Have Windows 8 and after getting used to its new config, it is head over heels anything you guys ever used.
Linux rocks and windows 7 rolls, but windows 8 just flies if you have a modern machine, and not something that is 10 years old.
Only words for you all -----> upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. Especially commodorejohn.
C64 just don't hang anymore and Microsoft wanting you to use the app store is just business, you know something Commodore (and probably commodorejohn) knew nothing about.
smerf
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Your opinions are however based on your provably wrong gems, such as:
The problem is that I'm not the one implying that - Microsoft is. They want everybody to move to Metro, whether on the desktop or on a tablet, and they want everybody to get their "apps" from the Windows Store so that they get a cut of it.
That is my analysis of their behavior. It's quite possibly wrong (though I don't think so.) What it isn't, at this stage, is provably false. You keep acting as though saying "no, you're wrong!" is proof of same, and if I disagree then I'm just not objective enough, but that's not how it works.
You justify every thing with "it's clear this is the way they are going", when to someone who is objective it's actually not clear at all. If you take what Microsoft have said at face value then you wouldn't be making these claims. If you're going to ignore what is here now & what Microsoft say about the future, then you deserve to be called on your paranoia.
If I took Microsoft at their word, I'd believe that open-source software is a code virus, infringes on 235 patents and no you can't see them, and that Linux, which doesn't cost anything, has a higher total cost of ownership than Windows (secret hidden qualifier: as long as your Linux machine is a high-priced IBM mainframe.) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt#Microsoft) And that's just getting into the things they say, let alone the untrustworthy things they've done.
Call it paranoia if you want, but just because Google is supplanting them as the favorite most-surreptitiously-sinister tech monopoly, it doesn't make them suddenly worthy of blind trust.
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Many of the statements made about the doom and gloom about W8 ushering in some Big Brother scheme aren't just paranoid lunacy, but stuff easily proved 110% incorrect by anyone even remotely up to date on the status of the product. Even if you are five years in the past regarding the modern computing era, you can see how silly this is. The idea that MS would not allow people to run anything other than the store served apps would bankrupt them, since MS's main source of income is from Enterprise. Enterprise has no time for bull**** like submitting their very close to the chest, highly private apps to anyone for "approval", much less MS.
It's depressing here when intelligent people don't actually go hands on with a product, and don't bother to actually read up on easily checked facts before yammering on like some old man on a rocking chair wielding a shotgun.
We can all get on the same page and bitch and moan about how W8, OSX, or whatever OS *IS NOT* an Amiga OS and therefore is useless, but at the end of the day, get hands on and for chrissakes actually read materials that aren't 2 years old on the matter before you smack talk.
MS has never asked anyone to "sign in" to MS services to use the OS, or tried to sell services upon install, and they never will.
I'm a MCSE/MCSA. I hate Windows 8, so I am not about to pander to MS on this one, but at least *I* know why I dislike it :)
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I don't know why I'm responding to a smerf post, but since he took the trouble to address part of it to me...
So while you guys are arguing about how awesome morphos and aros are, and trying to play the original doom on your so called great OS's, I will be playing the new Doom 3,
Doom 3 is a first-person science fiction horror video game developed by id Software and published by Activision. Doom 3 was first released for Microsoft Windows on August 3, 2004.
(emphasis mine)
(Also Doom 3 was thoroughly meh and had more gutless jump-scares than a PG slasher movie and less action than Zany Golf. Doesn't even come close to comparing to Doom and Doom II, let alone something like Quake.)
Yes, you all keep telling me how bad the PC with windows is, while I will just tell you that this is what Amiga should have been, but you all blew it by saying we want a PPC processor, which is a weak outdated piece of junk that might play the original doom.
Evidently you haven't really ever actually looked at any information on these architectures. PPC was competitive with x86 throughout the entirety of its Mac run, and depending on who you ask often even had an edge over it. 'Smatter of fact, the PowerBook G4 (1GHz TiBook) I'm typing this reply on right now is fully capable of running a modern web browser (TenFourFox 9) at a satisfactory clip, plays back low-def video without issue, and is just shy of meeting the recommended system requirements for your beloved Doom 3 - and it's not even one of the high-end models!
The only reason Apple even abandoned PPC in the first place was that IBM and Motorola kept dropping the ball on providing a steady upgrade path on a reliable timeframe - and even after they left, it's still remained a strong performer in non-PC markets, including consoles like the XBox 360, where - guess what - Doom 3 also runs.
Only words for you all -----> upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. Especially commodorejohn.
Why? My Core 2 Duo laptop running XP does everything I need, handles all my VSTs, runs all the games I want to play, short of Oblivion (which my P4 gaming rig - also running XP - handles with aplomb,) and employs a UI with which I am familiar from seven years of using Win95/98 and eight years of using XP, and which hasn't been unnecessarily mucked around with to justify the UI department's budget for the year. What would upgrading get me that I need but don't already have, and how would it justify the pain that I'd go through acclimating myself to the needless changes?
Microsoft wanting you to use the app store is just business, you know something Commodore (and probably commodorejohn) knew nothing about.
And once again the "that's just business" line gets trotted out. Hint: just because something makes sense from a business standpoint does not make it good for anybody but the business in question. Are Microsoft within their rights to do this? Probably (leaving aside questions of monopolies for another discussion.) Does that make it any good for me or any other Windows user, or the developers who are now going to have to fork out to Microsoft just to be able to distribute their software? NO.
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Only words for you all -----> upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
Dude, most Amiga users have fast PCs.
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Dude, most Amiga users have fast PCs.
Just finished building a new gaming PC for my kid. He knows that consoles are for peasants and that PC gaming is for the master race of gamers.
It's funny because my 7 year old has the fastest rig in the house by far. :laughing:
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Spoiled brat? :razz:
I still have me coreduo setup that's working good since 2006 :).
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He knows that consoles are for peasants and that PC gaming is for the master race of gamers.
The only shame is that some console games won't ever be released on the PC :(
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That is my analysis of their behavior. It's quite possibly wrong (though I don't think so.) What it isn't, at this stage, is provably false. You keep acting as though saying "no, you're wrong!" is proof of same, and if I disagree then I'm just not objective enough, but that's not how it works.
Your statement about Microsoft trying to force you to use windows store apps is provably false. I've been running Windows 8 for a while now and they have never once tried to force me to use it.
You could argue that while they haven't done it yet, you think they will do. But then you're not analysing their behaviour, because they haven't actually done it or even hinted that they will. You are only analysing your guess of what their behaviour will be,
My analysis of your behaviour is that you're scared that if enough people prefer apps from the windows store that there is no business case to develop desktop apps or for Microsoft to support running them, then you'll be left without an operating system that you like.
"Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself"
or the developers who are now going to have to fork out to Microsoft just to be able to distribute their software? NO.
I'm a developer and I can distribute my software without paying Microsoft. If I chose to write a tablet app for Windows RT then Microsoft do have a monopoly for distribution, like Apple do on the iPad. However with Microsoft testing & hosting the app, taking payments then sending me my cut, it sounds worth paying for. If there was more than one store, then I'd need to get my software on all of them as the more stores there are the less likely it is that users will visit them all.
It doesn't sound great for open source who want everything for free, but someone has to pay. Even free hosting for open source projects has to make money somewhere, usually from people who don't use the open source software at all (like advertisement, where it's the customers of the products advertised that are saddled with the cost).
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Window RT forces you to use the store (Surface), Windows 8 does not and never will...
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Ahhh the Microsoft surface... The usability of a Playbook, the build quality of an Android and the price of an iPad... For the win :lol:
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It doesn't sound great for open source who want everything for free, but someone has to pay. Even free hosting for open source projects has to make money somewhere, usually from people who don't use the open source software at all (like advertisement, where it's the customers of the products advertised that are saddled with the cost).
It's not free as in beer, it's free as in freedom.
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Just finished building a new gaming PC for my kid. He knows that consoles are for peasants and that PC gaming is for the master race of gamers.
It's funny because my 7 year old has the fastest rig in the house by far. :laughing:
The same master race that keeps drowning money down the toilet upgrading in order to run a game that a console will run without that hassle?. Also the ones who only seem to thing that games are fps and strategy titles?.
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The only shame is that some console games won't ever be released on the PC :(
I assume that the only reason some are console exclusive is because of the piracy, perhaps Win8 will solve that problem. Hooray! Red Dead Redemption for PC!!!!
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The same master race that keeps drowning money down the toilet upgrading in order to run a game that a console will run without that hassle?. Also the ones who only seem to thing that games are fps and strategy titles?.
That feel when running Skyrim and GTA4 on max settings making the console version look like barf.:banana::banana::banana::banana:
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Spoiled brat? :razz:
I still have me coreduo setup that's working good since 2006 :).
You just need a Mom that loves you more and then you will get a new Quad Core with a shiny new Radeon. Works for my son.
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I assume that the only reason some are console exclusive is because of the piracy, perhaps Win8 will solve that problem. Hooray! Red Dead Redemption for PC!!!!
That's what they like to say. (But if piracy is so little of a problem on consoles, why do console titles still get DRM and why is there talk about next-gen consoles not using physical media?) Really I expect it has much more to do with only having one or two platforms to target, instead of a multiplicity of different hardware combinations; even in these days of standardized gaming hardware libraries, that stuff's still damn complex.
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That's what they like to say. (But if piracy is so little of a problem on consoles, why do console titles still get DRM and why is there talk about next-gen consoles not using physical media?) Really I expect it has much more to do with only having one or two platforms to target, instead of a multiplicity of different hardware combinations; even in these days of standardized gaming hardware libraries, that stuff's still damn complex.
Porting from XBOX360 to PC is not a big deal when compared to porting between platforms in the old days. Both use MS SDK's and DirectX. DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS.... remember. Yes it is still a bit of work, guess some places don't feel the need. However piracy is still a problem in the PC world, go to that bay place to see. Console piracy is much less rampart, though still happens, however getting banned from XBOX live is a good deterrent for most people. As for PS3 piracy, no one actually plays PS3 so no one cares.
The new consoles will not be disk free. The ones after the new ones probably will be though.
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Oh, it's definitely less complicated than it used to be, but weird issues do still have a way of cropping up when you have as many possible hardware combinations (and as many potential software setups) as PCs do.
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Oh, it's definitely less complicated than it used to be, but weird issues do still have a way of cropping up when you have as many possible hardware combinations (and as many potential software setups) as PCs do.
True, this is exactly why MS made the "Metro" interface. All of these problems are now gone. The desktop was a kludge stacked on kludge's .NET fixed some of these problems but a clean sheet was the way to go.
Still gonna need the desktop but development of metro apps will be hardware agnostic more or less.
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True, this is exactly why MS made the "Metro" interface. All of these problems are now gone. The desktop was a kludge stacked on kludge's .NET fixed some of these problems but a clean sheet was the way to go.
Still gonna need the desktop but development of metro apps will be hardware agnostic more or less.
That's complete nonsense. Windows has had hardware-agnostic APIs for years now. It's the quirks of driver interactions and system addons that cause bizarre behavior that makes PC debugging hectic. Metro (or any other aspect of Win8) will do jack to fix that.
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That's complete nonsense. Windows has had hardware-agnostic APIs for years now. It's the quirks of driver interactions and system addons that cause bizarre behavior that makes PC debugging hectic. Metro (or any other aspect of Win8) will do jack to fix that.
FALSE. :quickdraw: It's a major step towards solving a bunch of problems.
My bet is Metro style apps will run without problems in 10 years from now on the latest version of Windows. Will bump thread in a decade to confirm.
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My bet is Metro style apps will run without problems in 10 years from now on the latest version of Windows. Will bump thread in a decade to confirm.
I guess we'll see - but the question for most people is how they'll run in the meantime...
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I guess we'll see - but the question for most people is how they'll run in the meantime...
In ten years we will find out. I will also bump the thread "Any more news on the laptop" to see if we have any more information on it as well.
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In ten years we will find out. I will also bump the thread "Any more news on the laptop" to see if we have any more information on it as well.
I'm betting that'll be a "no" :lol:
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I'm betting that'll be a "no" :lol:
Nah, probably "Big announcement in two weeks."
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It's not free as in beer, it's free as in freedom.
And you have the freedom free to write any software you like for windows 8 tablets. The thing that is being complained about is that it costs money.
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And you have the freedom free to write any software you like for windows 8 tablets. The thing that is being complained about is that it costs money.
Money isnt a concern. People steal windows all the time if they feel its too ****e to pay for. Ditto for photoshop and all the other wondefull killer applications people yammer on about.
As far as freedom, you know it isn't about "free to write a program"'. Its about freedom to do whatever you damn well want with the software on your computer.
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You just need a Mom that loves you more and then you will get a new Quad Core with a shiny new Radeon. Works for my son.
Guess so :). Being 35 and not living at home (=parents) anymore may set its limitations on that :rolleyes:
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Guess so :). Being 35 and not living at home (=parents) anymore may set its limitations on that :rolleyes:
Try being cuter, that is what my son does. If you are super cute you can get way better things. True Story.
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Once you use IE10 (the windows 8 app version) you wont go back. Quick, full screen... no annoying bars.
Right click and up comes the tabs and url boxes amazing. Speed, really quick. Pages just appear loaded in less than a second. Hard to describe.
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Hooray! Red Dead Redemption for PC!!!!
Or all the cool Cave shoot'em ups that will probably never, ever see the light of day on the PC :(
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As far as freedom, you know it isn't about "free to write a program"'. Its about freedom to do whatever you damn well want with the software on your computer.
And there is nothing to stop you doing what you damn well want with the software on your computer either.
People have been making **** up about Microsoft locking your computer down in the "next version of Windows" for ages.
Anyone who thinks it will ever happen needs to put their tin hats back on so nobody can steal their thoughts.
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With all the other options that exist nowadays I find it hard to believe people still get excited about, or even use - whatever Microsoft release.
I'm not anti-Microsoft in the was I was 15 years ago, I'm happy with whatever OS runs the apps I need and gets the job done with the minimum of hassle. It just so happens, the answer is rarely a Microsoft product.
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I'm not anti-Microsoft in the was I was 15 years ago, I'm happy with whatever OS runs the apps I need and gets the job done with the minimum of hassle. It just so happens, the answer is rarely a Microsoft product.
I've never been anti-Microsoft, but I didn't have a windows machine until 12 years ago. For the majority of people Windows is the minimum hassle. They know that they can buy a printer in PC world and it'll work.
I like visual studio and use that a lot. I don't use Office much, but I don't use anything in it's place either.
I've tried other browsers and email clients but always end up back with IE & Windows Live Mail.
I've tried Linux and ended up back on Windows again. I use Linux and unix at work because I have to, it's not that I don't know how to use it.
And I like running (or at least trying) the latest versions of software, for various reasons.
I could waste time lolling on message boards about how Microsoft sucks because they aren't perfect, but nothing is.
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And there is nothing to stop you doing what you damn well want with the software on your computer either.
People have been making **** up about Microsoft locking your computer down in the "next version of Windows" for ages.
Anyone who thinks it will ever happen needs to put their tin hats back on so nobody can steal their thoughts.
You're missing the point comrade.
Windows will always be locked down, because it's proprietary. I can't copy and distribute it. I can't peek at the code. You're forced to colour within the lines. Someone else owns the software you happen to be borrowing at the time.
As one example: On my linux box, I've swapped out the entire GUI multiple times: From Gnome to Unity to KDE to Openbox. Can't do that on a windows box.
For some people that doesn't matter. For others it does.
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Windows is the property of Microsoft, they draw the borders, they set the limits and you live within them, it's always been that way. If you don't like limited closed operating systems use Linux or BSD, but calling Windows open doesn't make it so.
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As one example: On my linux box, I've swapped out the entire GUI multiple times: From Gnome to Unity to KDE to Openbox. Can't do that on a windows box.
Having multiple GUI's is one of the reasons that Linux will never win any desktop share. If they could actually come up with one good one, then it might stand a chance.
You might think it's really neat that you can do that, but the fact that you even have that choice is an extra burned on the majority who would live with what they are given.
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Here's a cheat sheet for Microsoft Windows.
http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/a-windows-8-cheat-sheet/?ref=personaltechemail&nl=technology&emc=edit_ct_20121025 (http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/a-windows-8-cheat-sheet/?ref=personaltechemail&nl=technology&emc=edit_ct_20121025)
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Having multiple GUI's is one of the reasons that Linux will never win any desktop share. If they could actually come up with one good one, then it might stand a chance.
You might think it's really neat that you can do that, but the fact that you even have that choice is an extra burned on the majority who would live with what they are given.
Err... That is what Unity is. Ask most muppets what linux is and they will tell you its Ubuntu. The Steam Client for Linux is being specifically optimized and released for Ubuntu to start. People in the know will still use distro x, y or z with desktop environment x, y or z, but Ubuntu (whether you like it or not) is becoming the de-facto standard for third party targets. Which, in turn, means that Unity is becoming the standard desktop environment.
In Arch land where I reside, there are already murmurings with the newbs why Unity isn't in the main repos.
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Err... That is what Unity is. Ask most muppets what linux is and they will tell you its Ubuntu. The Steam Client for Linux is being specifically optimized and released for Ubuntu to start. People in the know will still use distro x, y or z with desktop environment x, y or z, but Ubuntu (whether you like it or not) is becoming the de-facto standard for third party targets. Which, in turn, means that Unity is becoming the standard desktop environment.
In Arch land where I reside, there are already murmurings with the newbs why Unity isn't in the main repos.
Unity is only the shell, it uses gnome underneath as the desktop environment. It's also the name of a Linux distribution that uses openbox to cause ultimate confusion.
Ubuntu has been touted as the next big thing for years, if steam goes well then it could become a viable desktop operating system that is free as in beer, if not free as in spirit. It will only succeed if people spend money on games though.
Ubuntu make their money by also providing Amazon search results when you're searching for local content. Amazon is very toxic in the UK, because like Starbucks they avoid paying any corporation tax at all. Not exactly the kind of company you really want to be involved with. http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-business/46200/how-does-amazon-minimise-its-tax-payments
I think I'd rather use Microsoft products :-)
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Having multiple GUI's is one of the reasons that Linux will never win any desktop share. If they could actually come up with one good one, then it might stand a chance.
You might think it's really neat that you can do that, but the fact that you even have that choice is an extra burned on the majority who would live with what they are given.
"They" ? Who are they?
The Ubuntu people? IBM? Intel?
There's no monolithic entity pushing linux. That's what's so beautifull about it. That's why you can use linux in a wrist watch, and a wireless router, and a tablet, and a desktop computer and a supercomputer cluster.
And if we're at "I'd rather have other people choose for me" as a culture, then it's over. The big men in suits won.
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"They" ? Who are they?
The Ubuntu people? IBM? Intel?
There's no monolithic entity pushing linux. That's what's so beautifull about it. That's why you can use linux in a wrist watch, and a wireless router, and a tablet, and a desktop computer and a supercomputer cluster.
And if we're at "I'd rather have other people choose for me" as a culture, then it's over. The big men in suits won.
They are Ubuntu, they are the ones making money out of pushing Linux. They wouldn't be doing it if there were no money in it.
Software is a tool, it's not a religion. I put companies that promote Linux alongside Television Evangelists.
I run android on my phone because it came with it. I chose the phone on other factors. The software was chosen for me.
I'm in a room with 5 things that are running Linux & none of them are easy to install something else on either, including newer distributions let alone another OS
We're already there as a culture & Linux is just as big a part of it as Microsoft or Apple.
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Unity is only the shell, it uses gnome underneath as the desktop environment. It's also the name of a Linux distribution that uses openbox to cause ultimate confusion.
No. Unity has nothing to do with Gnome or the Gnome project. It owes its existence because of Shuttleworth and Gnome being at odds. You could call it a "plugin" to Compiz, which would be technically accurate, but you are completely missing the point. Unity is a complete DE, not a window manager. In fact, the roadmap is to drop Unity 2D entirely (which is written in QT, not GTK) and optimize a low end hardware solution from unity 3d. Not only that, they are optimizing Unity to run on weyland. You can't just slap Unity on top of GTK (or QT) and X and run it.
You want to act like the desktop linux world is some wild west morass of window managers, X windowing systems, file managers etc that have no cohesiveness except what is brought by some bright linux hacker, which simply isn't true. Installing all of the mainstream distros is brainless at best, and they work 99% out of the box. The ONLY thing they struggle with are apps which are so completely sandboxed (DirectX, Silverlight, .Net...notice a pattern here?) that there is no real solution for. People don't use linux because of games or because some craptastic shovelware program doesn't run natively on it that they just CAN'T live without. And because most people can't follow simple instructions on web forums. For those people seriously TDO, there is always OSX and MS. That bar is getting way down there now.
Unity is also a 3d game engine, recently ported to OpenGL and linux. It really isn't causing any confusion.
Ubuntu has been touted as the next big thing for years, if steam goes well then it could become a viable desktop operating system that is free as in beer, if not free as in spirit. It will only succeed if people spend money on games though.
You are missing the issue here as well. Its not as much that Steam now runs on linux natively, its that Source runs on linux natively . Its that Unity runs on linux natively. Which means that these engines run on OpenGL. Which means they do not run on DirectX. Which means that MS is well and truly screwed in the game arena. EDIT: That's probably poetic license. What it really means is that games will be optimized for both, which is a very good thing. A boy can dream, right? :)
Go to the Humble Indie Bundle site and see how much money linux gamers spend on old has-been PC games. The market is there.
Ubuntu make their money by also providing Amazon search results when you're searching for local content. Amazon is very toxic in the UK, because like Starbucks they avoid paying any corporation tax at all. Not exactly the kind of company you really want to be involved with. http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-business/46200/how-does-amazon-minimise-its-tax-payments
I think I'd rather use Microsoft products :-)
Nope: http://www.zdnet.com/canonical-performs-u-turn-over-amazon-search-results-in-ubuntu-12-10-7000004950/
Even if your argument made sense, there are hundreds of other distributions with equally well integrated DEs. Fedora, Debian, CentOS, Mandriva, Suse come to mind. I even left Mint off since its close to Ubuntu.
The instant I don't have to program in C# and .net or the day I can play Fallout 4 in my linux steam client at 80+fps at 1920x1080 is the day I never have another MS partition on my home computer. Its that simple.
Disclaimer: I do run Arch and I do like mucking about with all of those underpinings, but even with Arch it could be just a matter of installing Gnome, KDE, cinnamon, mate, following a couple of clearly defined instructions on the Arch wiki for those DEs and I would have a turnkey solution that would (after that) not need to go near a terminal for anything. And thats with a distro that eats noobs for breakfast (supposedly).
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Software is a tool, it's not a religion. I put companies that promote Linux alongside Television Evangelists.
IBM and Google are television evangelists? I think we can end this conversation here. We don't have any frames of reference that are in the same realm of sanity.
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IBM and Google are television evangelists? I think we can end this conversation here. We don't have any frames of reference that are in the same realm of sanity.
I always think that Linux desktop domination is ALWAYS 10 years away. Though ChromeOS netbooks for $250 is pretty interesting. I wonder if you can take that horrid POS off and install some Linux Distro on it. If so it'd be useful.
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I always think that Linux desktop domination is ALWAYS 10 years away. Though ChromeOS netbooks for $250 is pretty interesting. I wonder if you can take that horrid POS off and install some Linux Distro on it. If so it'd be useful.
It's as far away as Mac domination, and always will be. But the desktop is only one part of computing nowadays.
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It's as far away as Mac domination, and always will be. But the desktop is only one part of computing nowadays.
Yes, Linux currently is winning the mobile race. But Android performance is horrid. Sad when Apple (IOS) AND MS (WinRT, WinPhone8) software is more efficient than the competition. I blame Java. There is a reason Android phones are all Quad Core and Apple and MS can get away with dual core, half the ram and have similar performance.
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IBM and Google are television evangelists? I think we can end this conversation here. We don't have any frames of reference that are in the same realm of sanity.
You can't even read English, so we may as well end the conversation here.
I didn't say they were TV evangelists, I said that I put them alongside.
They are saying the things that you eat up, but they are just trying to find a way to screw money out of you. Google have nailed it.
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People don't use linux because of games or because some craptastic shovelware program doesn't run natively on it that they just CAN'T live without.
A lot of people don't use Linux because of the lack of hardware and software support. I've only used laptops for the last 12 years and Linux driver support has always been poor when I've tried it. I was surprised when a real hardcore Linux geek I know bought a sony vaio & he's now happily running Windows on it as it actually has drivers for all the built in hardware.
They don't want to learn anything new, if you can't get them to upgrade from XP to 7 because it's different, then switching to Linux is never going to happen.
You'll never be able to convince your broadband supplier that the reason the internet is not working right has nothing to do with you running Linux.
Commercial software that people rely on hasn't been ported.
Hardly anybody knows how to use it. Not helped by the differences between distros.
Steam are the first business to have any real faith that Linux on the desktop can succeed. Maybe it will pay off for you eventually, maybe it won't.
Just because there is software that nobody can be bothered to write for Linux, doesn't make it craptastic shovelware. Maybe they just want to reach the widest audience. Especially for commercial software, where you're trying to sell software making it not only not free as in beer, it's definitely not going to be free as in spirit.
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You can't even read English, so we may as well end the conversation here.
I didn't say they were TV evangelists, I said that I put them alongside.
They are saying the things that you eat up, but they are just trying to find a way to screw money out of you. Google have nailed it.
So, Google invented Linux and is the be all/end all? Runey called you on not making sense - this post does not help your case.
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So, Google invented Linux and is the be all/end all? Runey called you on not making sense - this post does not help your case.
I never said they invented Linux. Please try reading slower and more carefully, you might find it helps.
It seems Mitt Romney is better at debating than Linux users.
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A lot of people don't use Linux because of the lack of hardware and software support. I've only used laptops for the last 12 years and Linux driver support has always been poor when I've tried it.
citation needed. I have found linux support stellar for most all hardware these days except for some wifi chips. It must have been a while since your last attempt.
Lack of software support? Really? Shenanigans.
I was surprised when a real hardcore Linux geek I know bought a sony vaio & he's now happily running Windows on it as it actually has drivers for all the built in hardware.
No hardcore linux geek would ever buy a Sony product. I had a Sony laptop once. It barely ran on Windows, and was impossible to divest of shovelware as the proprietary drivers were embedded in a reinstall routine that would just reinstall the shovelware. It was an absolute piece of crap. If he was a real linux guy, there are many many companies which manufacture and sell laptops with excellent linux support. Lets see, there's Asus, and Dell, and Lenovo...
They don't want to learn anything new, if you can't get them to upgrade from XP to 7 because it's different, then switching to Linux is never going to happen.
Who cares? I don't care if there are people out there who run windows. You are comparing Ubuntu to Microsoft and calling linux users ignorant televangelist followers and alluding that there is some linux "conspiracy" to divest you of money, all of which are patently untrue. I use windows, and like it for what it is.
You'll never be able to convince your broadband supplier that the reason the internet is not working right has nothing to do with you running Linux.
Sure I can.
Commercial software that people rely on hasn't been ported.
citation needed.
Hardly anybody knows how to use it. Not helped by the differences between distros.
what you mean to say is that YOU do not know how to use it. fair enough.
Steam are the first business to have any real faith that Linux on the desktop can succeed. Maybe it will pay off for you eventually, maybe it won't.
Wow. There are a few more than just Steam.
I am not sure why you staunchly refuse to adjust your view of linux to its current state. I get you think it sucks, but don't spread FUD because you couldn't get it to work.
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I have found linux support stellar for most all hardware these days except for some wifi chips. It must have been a while since your last attempt.
Is wifi not important? I've been using wifi almost exclusively for networking for 12 years.
Tell me a distro that you think every single piece of hardware in my laptop will have drivers for and I'll install it on a spare drive & let you know how I get on.
No hardcore linux geek would ever buy a Sony product. I had a Sony laptop once. It barely ran on Windows, and was impossible to divest of shovelware as the proprietary drivers were embedded in a reinstall routine that would just reinstall the shovelware. It was an absolute piece of crap. If he was a real linux guy, there are many many companies which manufacture and sell laptops with excellent linux support. Lets see, there's Asus, and Dell, and Lenovo...
Well he is a real Linux geek and it's a really nice bit of hardware with no shovelware at all. The speed was amazing. I am not impressed with asus or Lenovo hardware. The new xps 13z from Dell looks nice, but that's no good for you as it comes bundled with Windows 8. I tend to buy Dell stuff as their support has consistently been good for me, I'd always get on site support with accidental damage though.
I am not sure why you staunchly refuse to adjust your view of linux to its current state. I get you think it sucks, but don't spread FUD because you couldn't get it to work.
I could ask you the same, but you'd only say that you are right.
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You can't even read English, so we may as well end the conversation here.
I didn't say they were TV evangelists, I said that I put them alongside.
They are saying the things that you eat up, but they are just trying to find a way to screw money out of you. Google have nailed it.
Again with the they. You seem to be missing something pretty important:
There is no monolithic entity pushing linux. There's tons of individual companies and individual people who use it for their specific purposes.
The reason they can do this is exactly because it is open source. What else would linksys, google, canonical, the French government, IBM, the KDE developers and a basement coder from Uzbekistan have in common ?
You keep coming back to money, and sure, companies want money in return for something, whether advertisement (google), hardware (IBM, intel) or support (red hat, canonical). You can make money from open source software, and people have for years and years.
That does not invalidate the basic concept of software freedom. In fact, software freedom has specifically enabled this to occur in a world that is otherwise locked down between two corporate giants. It has lowered the barrier of entry to all manner of gadgets that would otherwise have been far more expensive to develop.
And it manages that while letting every day guys do whatever they want on their hardware. Pretty neat huh?
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There is no monolithic entity pushing linux.
The more Ubuntu takes off the worse canonical will become. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/canonical_now_solicits_donations_when_downloading_ubuntu_says_dont_freak_out
I like this comment: "I guess if the current users didn't leave after Unity, nothing is really going to shock them."
Google haven't particularly played fair with android either. Holding back the source until their own device is launched.
So no, there is not one company that is doing the dirty. It's a load of them.
At least Microsoft writes the software they sell, Ubuntu & Google have taken the hard work of others to make money from.
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I've never had a problem with wifi drivers. I've had asus wifi on PCI card and Atheros wifi.
For add ons like phones and bluetooth, if you hunt around you might find a beta version of the driver.
I'm nuts on KDE, its much better than Windows for utilities, office stuff and surfing. Unfortunately there is no way to play Direct X games. I'm just going to keep a second hard drive with Windows 7 on it.
I read they were doing Direct X on Linux, but not much news yet.
Try several versions of Linux before you give up. Sometimes the compatibility is lost in one version. Start from a fully formatted hard drive too. Also check the options in the bios. You might to need change the silliest little thing in the bios to get it to install.
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I got in to Linux in 2007, mainly thinking I could get the Amiga feel and responsiveness TBH.
I then watched my spare time disappear in to the abyss trying to get a working and booting computer.
Tried Ubuntu, dial up never worked with it (hey dial up was all I had at the time).
Went PCLOS, a ****ty 150 k file update for the cd driver that got installed in the rolling update meant I spent TWO weeks trying to get it to boot. Then some other update killed the boot process, and I felt I was playing Russian Roulette. Told Tex the maintainer that rolling updates are fine IF YOU CAN TEST THEM. If you can't then do a release every 6-12 months. He told me to f-- myself.
Mandriva was next. Brilliant. Loved it. Until they went to KDE 4.
Back to Ubuntu 9.10. Great. But only 18 mths support, so can't even update my browser. Heard too many horror stories about Ubuntu 10, so just stayed on 9.10.
Unity? Too many people hating on it. Sounds too much effort to get it going well.
So now back to Win 7.
I no longer give a rats about Linux and just use my time to DO things I need to do, rather than maintaining Linux's failings and annoyances.
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I no longer give a rats about Linux and just use my time to DO things I need to do, rather than maintaining Linux's failings and annoyances.
This. As they say, "Linux is free, as long as your time has no value..."
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The more Ubuntu takes off the worse canonical will become. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/canonical_now_solicits_donations_when_downloading_ubuntu_says_dont_freak_out
I like this comment: "I guess if the current users didn't leave after Unity, nothing is really going to shock them."
Google haven't particularly played fair with android either. Holding back the source until their own device is launched.
So no, there is not one company that is doing the dirty. It's a load of them.
At least Microsoft writes the software they sell, Ubuntu & Google have taken the hard work of others to make money from.
You can modify GPL whichever the way you want without ever releasing source code, you just don't distribute binaries... if google had no device/binaries to distribute why would you think they din't fair when the license itself doesn't force them too? So they have to release the code they built giving each and everyone advantage over their own product? Is it fair? Or am I missing something here...
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Is wifi not important? I've been using wifi almost exclusively for networking for 12 years.
That's nice.
Tell me a distro that you think every single piece of hardware in my laptop will have drivers for and I'll install it on a spare drive & let you know how I get on.
Latest Linux Mint, latest Ubuntu, latest Fedora. take your pick.
Well he is a real Linux geek and it's a really nice bit of hardware with no shovelware at all. The speed was amazing. I am not impressed with asus or Lenovo hardware. The new xps 13z from Dell looks nice, but that's no good for you as it comes bundled with Windows 8. I tend to buy Dell stuff as their support has consistently been good for me, I'd always get on site support with accidental damage though.
DId you miss the point that I use windows as well? Or that I have Win 8 and Win 7? I code in c# and .net for real projects, which require it. I use linux for my python, ruby, java, c, and every other language development platform. I do work with my computers. I have a macbook laying around for xcode, except that now its out of date cos i don't have liger or whatever crap they are on, so I can't hit the latest Ios release without upgrading everything.
What I get tired of is the FUD. If you haven't tried linux in the last three years then you aren't current. If you tried it once and got pissed off because you don't know unix, you never gave it a chance.
Mark Shuttleworth is not trying to steal your money. Android isn't either. Linux won't save your marriage. It is, however, a damn sight better than microsoft for 80% of the population who does nothing but surf the web and check email with the occasional solitaire game. The driver support these days is superb. These aren't opinions, they are fact. You don't like it? Don't use it, but don't speak to it when the reality is you don't know anything about it.
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This. As they say, "Linux is free, as long as your time has no value..."
Nobody but you says this.
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This. As they say, "Linux is free, as long as your time has no value..."
My counterpart from personal experience with windows over the years would be "Don't get too attached to your data" :)
Personal anecdotes of "this didn't work" aren't monster helpfull though, on either side. I have never had hardware on my machines not work out of the box on a linux install, whereas I don't think I've ever had a windows install where everything worked.
As a consequence, I refuse to use it anymore. Too much time wasted, too many bridges burnt, too many things going on without any way of figuring out why something broke. (and on software that I paid good money for too)
Other's will have the complete opposite experience. But we used different machines at different times, under different circumstances. So comparing it won't really be a lot of help to either.
What is absolutely the truth though is that anything that doesn't work according to "OS the speaker is familiar with" is crap, and the annoyances that "OS the speaker is familiar with" has are no big deal.
I can't stand lacking multiple desktops at windows 7 at work, but other's wouldn't care, because they never got used to that feature f.x. Ditto for whatever is your particular favourite thing.
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So no, there is not one company that is doing the dirty. It's a load of them.
At least Microsoft writes the software they sell, Ubuntu & Google have taken the hard work of others to make money from.
Yes, corporations are ****. Without exception.
This is silly though:
That's how open source works. Everyone can use it. That's the entire damn point.
With patent warfare becoming the default operation of the corporate environment, we desperately need alternatives if innovation is going to actually happen.
http://www.pwc.com/us/en/press-releases/2012/stakes-for-patent-infringement.jhtml
Fancy your start up company risking a billion dollars in damages for violating a patent?
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Nobody but you says this.
http://www.google.com/search?q=linux+is+free+as+long+as+your+time+has+no+value
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Latest Linux Mint, latest Ubuntu, latest Fedora. take your pick.
Which one is best?
I can't stand lacking multiple desktops at windows 7 at work, but other's wouldn't care, because they never got used to that feature f.x. Ditto for whatever is your particular favourite thing.
I tried it back in the 9x years when Norton (?) included it in one of their packages. I never got on with it, but there are multiple add on's that allow you to do it.
Microsoft even has one of their own that has been recently updated (I assume for windows 8). http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/cc817881.aspx
or an open source one that appears to still be going http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/
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The more Ubuntu takes off the worse canonical will become. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/canonical_now_solicits_donations_when_downloading_ubuntu_says_dont_freak_out
I like this comment: "I guess if the current users didn't leave after Unity, nothing is really going to shock them."
Pretty stupid comment indeed. If you don't like the Unity desktop, just run "sudo tasksel" and pick something different. Or choose a different installation medium right from the beginning (e.g. the Xubuntu or Lubuntu ISO). Unlike other OSes, you're not limited to that one and only desktop environment, you know?
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Speaking of not liking something (and I know this isn't Win8 related, but let's face it, you guys are way off that topic anyway)'m really hating reinstallation of WinXP.
I have two copies of WinXP Media Center 2005 Edition. That's not that old, but in order to get it to update properly (after installation) I had to manually install SP3. Then it installed 117 service patches, restarted and installed two more.
Freakin' ridiculous.
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Pretty stupid comment indeed. If you don't like the Unity desktop, just run "sudo tasksel" and pick something different. Or choose a different installation medium right from the beginning (e.g. the Xubuntu or Lubuntu ISO). Unlike other OSes, you're not limited to that one and only desktop environment, you know?
It seems very user unfriendly to have to run a command to change desktop. Isn't their a configuration screen?
Will Steam be supporting the other distros?
You say you're not limited to one and only desktop environment as if that is a good thing. You must have loved it when Bluray and HD-DVD were getting exclusive movies so you had to buy two players, so much choice. Its a pity that everyone grew up and spoiled it for you.
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As I said the most annoying thing is the the old Windows 7 desktop, minus the Windows "start" ball, keeps popping up. It's just jarring as hell, couldn't they just make a way to turn it off?
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http://www.google.com/search?q=linux+is+free+as+long+as+your+time+has+no+value
ermagerd.
Which one is best?
None of them are "best". An operating system is "best" when it does exactly what you want. If you like customizing to your hearts content and like that if you are curious what is in your code, then linux or BSD may be a good fit. universal pendrive linux + 4G thumbdrive or a blank CD/DVD and you can test run any to your hearts content without nuking your drive for it. Throw one in a VM. If windows 7 or 8 or XP or hell even 3.11 works for you, then stick with it. I have a strong opinion about free software and linux/BSD specifically, but there is a difference between correcting misinformation and prosletyzing.
And yes, Steam will be on all linuxes, they just chose Ubuntu as it is the flavor most people use.
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You say you're not limited to one and only desktop environment as if that is a good thing. You must have loved it when Bluray and HD-DVD were getting exclusive movies so you had to buy two players, so much choice. Its a pity that everyone grew up and spoiled it for you.
The desktop environment won't really affect what apps will run. Worst case, an app may look a bit like it doesn't fit in, if it's written for say KDE, but running on Gnome instead. Kinda like running some old windows apps in a newer version.
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Noting coud be as jarring as running old windows programs, they don't fit at all in the tiled world interface....
The desktop environment won't really affect what apps will run. Worst case, an app may look a bit like it doesn't fit in, if it's written for say KDE, but running on Gnome instead. Kinda like running some old windows apps in a newer version.
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You say you're not limited to one and only desktop environment as if that is a good thing. You must have loved it when Bluray and HD-DVD were getting exclusive movies so you had to buy two players, so much choice. Its a pity that everyone grew up and spoiled it for you.
I don't care about that tbh, I have neither of them. What I do know though is, that if one system survives and the other one is killed, it is not neccessarily the best one which stays. VHS and Betamax is a common example, maybe the Amiga aswell. SO, having the freedom of choice is a good thing indeed. Just pick whatever suits your needs best.
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To me it seems like Windows 8 will turn out to be the new Windows ME, and because of this upgrade offer, I belive Microsoft have their doubts as well.
The Win9x start menu was one of the things Microsoft really did a good job with, but of course they had to mess it up with the later versions of Windows. Launching applications from a small menu by using only two mouse-clicks was of course way too easy, so they had to find ways to make this more ackward for the user.
Guess I will be sticking with Vista for as long as I can, since it's the last Windows version where it's still possible to get the classic start menu, and I will not upgrade to Win8 even if I got payed to do so.
Mark my words, Windows 8 will fail considerably on the desktop market, so Microsoft will be forced to either make an update which brings back the start menu, or they will rush out the next Windows version where it will be re-implemented there instead.
Everybody I have talked to are sceptical to Windows 8, and even my father have heard rumors about 8 being no good.
PS! Sorry about being on-topic folks :-)
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To me it seems like Windows 8 will turn out to be the new Windows ME, and because of this upgrade offer, I belive Microsoft have their doubts as well.
The Win9x start menu was one of the things Microsoft really did a good job with, but of course they had to mess it up with the later versions of Windows. Launching applications from a small menu by using only two mouse-clicks was of course way too easy, so they had to find ways to make this more ackward for the user.
Guess I will be sticking with Vista for as long as I can, since it's the last Windows version where it's still possible to get the classic start menu, and I will not upgrade to Win8 even if I got payed to do so.
Mark my words, Windows 8 will fail considerably on the desktop market, so Microsoft will be forced to either make an update which brings back the start menu, or they will rush out the next Windows version where it will be re-implemented there instead.
Everybody I have talked to are sceptical to Windows 8, and even my father have heard rumors about 8 being no good.
PS! Sorry about being on-topic folks :-)
I predict Surface and Win 8 along with whatever new Xbox they deploy will be the nail in Sony and Apples coffin. Mark my words.
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Which one is best?
Red Star OS is best OS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
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I predict Surface and Win 8 along with whatever new Xbox they deploy will be the nail in Sony and Apples coffin. Mark my words.
Sony is in big trouble in the console world. Plus their controllers suck compared to perfection of the 360. If MS changes the controller I will rage harder than when Honey Boo Boo runs out of Redbull.:furious:
Apple will probably eventually be #3 in the phone and #2 in the tablet world after a few years. The amount of apps that will be in the Windows App store compared to the competition will be astounding due to the much much greater installed user base.
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Sony is in big trouble in the console world. Plus their controllers suck compared to perfection of the 360. If MS changes the controller I will rage harder than when Honey Boo Boo runs out of Redbull.:furious:
Apple will probably eventually be #3 in the phone and #2 in the tablet world after a few years. The amount of apps that will be in the Windows App store compared to the competition will be astounding due to the much much greater installed user base.
It's hard to believe how badly Sony bungled the console market after the domination of the PS2.
As far as Apple and phones, I don't know. So far, they seem to hold on to it pretty tight. Not sure I'd get hopes up for windows mobile though. I work for one of the major US carriers and I don't remember ever hearing a call where a customer asked for a windows phone. It's android or apple, nothing else.
In the tablet market though, things might get interesting over the next few years, which would be good.
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It's hard to believe how badly Sony bungled the console market after the domination of the PS2.
As far as Apple and phones, I don't know. So far, they seem to hold on to it pretty tight. Not sure I'd get hopes up for windows mobile though. I work for one of the major US carriers and I don't remember ever hearing a call where a customer asked for a windows phone. It's android or apple, nothing else.
In the tablet market though, things might get interesting over the next few years, which would be good.
It will be some time for mobile, I bet windows takes the bargain market. It runs on less powerful hardware fine compared to android.
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I have two copies of WinXP Media Center 2005 Edition. That's not that old, but in order to get it to update properly (after installation) I had to manually install SP3. Then it installed 117 service patches, restarted and installed two more.
Freakin' ridiculous.
2005, that's ancient. That's nearly 8 years ago. 117+ patches for 8 years, that's not really a large number at all.
Let's say 120 patches, divide that by 8 that's 15 patches a year.
If you really have an aversion with Microsoft releasing and supporting patches for an 8+ year old OS then you can slipstream the updates into a custom XP.
Google nlite some good resources there.
As for Windows 8 being the next ME that's just insanity. ME was junk, blue screens and crashing etc. Windows 8 is stable, quicker than my Windows 7 install and the new start screen is step in the right direction.
Times are changing. The start menu has been around for along time. There will be the usual complaints and arguments just like when Windows 95 hit the scene but after a year or so it will calm down.
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Guess I will be sticking with Vista for as long as I can, since it's the last Windows version where it's still possible to get the classic start menu, and I will not upgrade to Win8 even if I got payed to do so.
Had to reply to this Windows 7 does have the classic start menu. Plenty of guides on how...
http://win7vista.com/index.php?topic=1414.0
http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/3154-classic-start-menu-available.html#post41112
Vista was a bad OS until service pack 1 was released. However 7 was a huge improvement well worth the upgrade.
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It's hard to believe how badly Sony bungled the console market after the domination of the PS2.
They bungled the PS2 as well, it's just momentum from the PS1 kept it going.
When the PS1 came out it was powerful and simple. You wrote software in C, the libraries did everything for you. Compare this to the Saturn where you had two cpu's sharing the same memory bus, so you had to write your code so that it ran from cache as much as possible.
The PS2 was much harder to code for. Especially when compared to the xbox. The xbox came late to the market though, so developers were committed to it. Microsoft did a good job at getting people writing for it though, so by the end of that generation they were ready for the next.
Sega could have made more of an impact with the Dreamcast, but piracy killed the console stone dead. The gamecube was ok, but Nintendo wanted it to be a console for kids and while some games made it through anyway there weren't enough to build momentum.
With the PS3, Ken had gotten drunk on his own success. The PS2 hadn't deserved to be the success it was & the PS3 was even worse in term of complicated design. Plus they thought they could go it alone on a graphics chip. They were just going to implement a framebuffer, with the Cell actually rendering the graphics. At some point they gave up on the idea, it was obviously not good enough. Whether they gave up because of the time it would take to make it good enough, or whether they thought it could never be good enough I don't know. But they ended up going cap in hand to NVidia for a graphics chip.
It didn't help that Microsoft persuaded IBM to sell them the same CPU core that was going to be used in the PS3 and rather than using the Cell cores as well, Microsoft just specified that they wanted three of the CPU cores.
Sony also thought that when they clicked their fingers the developers would come running to write exclusive software. They had with the PS1 & PS2. However on the PS2 it was just because there were no other viable platforms at the time, on the PS1 it was because it was easier to write software. The 360 launched first, was easier to write software for than the PS2 & Microsoft courted the developers.
All that happened was Sony's luck ran out.
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As for Windows 8 being the next ME that's just insanity. ME was junk, blue screens and crashing etc. Windows 8 is stable, quicker than my Windows 7 install and the new start screen is step in the right direction.
I didn't mean to imply that Windows 8 is the same kind of crap like ME was, but I'm convinced that lots of people in the future will look at 8 with the same type of "disgust" as many do with ME today.
Times are changing. The start menu has been around for along time. There will be the usual complaints and arguments just like when Windows 95 hit the scene but after a year or so it will calm down.
Yes precisely, the start menu has been around for a long time, and it is what most people are used to. It has actually been the standard way of launching stuff in Windows for more than ten years, and to think that everybody all of the sudden will embrace such a drastic change of things is a bit too optimistic in my opinion. For the next couple of years, people will have the choice of either Windows 7 or 8 when bying a new pc, and I belive that most folks will choose 7, even if 8 is cheaper.
But people will of course eventually adopt to the new standards when they no longer have any choice. That is unless Microsoft come to their senses and realize exactly what it was that made XP so popular.
Just to be clear, I'm talking about the desktop market here, the tablet market may be different.
Had to reply to this Windows 7 does have the classic start menu. Plenty of guides on how...
http://win7vista.com/index.php?topic=1414.0
http://www.sevenforums.com/customization/3154-classic-start-menu-available.html#post41112
Vista was a bad OS until service pack 1 was released. However 7 was a huge improvement well worth the upgrade.
I didn't know that, maybe there's hope for Windows 7 after all :)
Yes there certainly was a lot of problems with Vista in the beginning, where it was released too early, had a lot of driver compability issues and was sold with pc's that had too weak hardware to run it effectively. But now I think it's quite a decent OS (for being Windows), and I can't picture myself going back to XP. The much more robust explorer in Vista is just one of the reasons why this isn't an option.
One of the things I REALLY like about Windows 7 is that upon shutting it down, the user gets the option of forcing applications to quit when they refuse to do so themselves. This instead of waiting forever for the pc to shut down.
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I didn't mean to imply that Windows 8 is the same kind of crap like ME was, but I'm convinced that lots of people in the future will look at 8 with the same type of "disgust" as many do with ME today.
Funny, but I don' find that much difference between 98 and ME, except that ME has more drivers built in and requires the CD less often when adding hardware.
Then again, people gave Vista a bad rap, and it might deserve it more in that it is more crash prone then its predecessor (ME is not, in fact its pretty much a polished version of '98).
I've been using Windows since version 3.0 and each time a new version comes out there's always some part of the market that dislikes the new version. Then, eventually, enough people adopt it (or wait) that it becomes a hit (or a miss).
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I went to the Microsoft store yesterday to check out the Surface, Windows 8 etc . The store was slow and very boring.
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I went to the Microsoft store yesterday to check out the Surface, Windows 8 etc . The store was slow and very boring.
Personally, I have more interest in ChromeOS.
Microsoft is struggling to remain relevant.
My hope?
ARM gains market share.
As do alternative OS' like Android, ChromeOS, Ubuntu, etc.
And maybe we see a few new systems (PPC and ARM).
I'll keep my copies of WinXP and Win7.
Win8?
No thanks.
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Personally, I have more interest in ChromeOS.
Microsoft is struggling to remain relevant.
While ChromeOS is struggling to become relevant, although it's likely that it missed it's chance. It's got the same level of awareness as WebOS.
Everyone said that Microsoft were wasting their time with the xbox, but they are quite good at doing what's required to get the job done. Even if that means changing what they are doing.
I remember a lot of resentment at 95 and XP when they came out. But they were key turning points for Microsoft. ME got a bad reputation because not only did it not really improve much beyond 98, it was also competing with 2000. It didn't help that they added restore points to ME, but it ended up taking up most of your disk space.
Apart from the lack of start menu, which I rarely ever used anyway. Windows 8 is just a new improved version of Windows 7. You can get some of the start menu functionality by adding a tool bar (right click task bar, select toolbars then New toolbar, then select the start menu folder). Or you can use a third party tool.
Not wanting to change is fine, stick with what you've got. What I find hilarious is the "I hate windows 8 because of the lack of start menu as I don't want to change how I work. Because of this I'm going to switch to Linux" attitude.
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The market has consistently rejected open operating systems. Linux, BSD, etc have failed to gather more than a small fraction of desktops. People like closed systems, end of story. Even Android, which is a Unix distro and open source has locked down the OS.
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Even Android, which is a Unix distro and open source has locked down the OS.
Android is Linux based, not Unix based.
And while Linux only makes up about 1% of the market, that still places it at number three behind Windows and OSX (unless you want to throw in Phone OS' like ios).
As far as ChromeOS goes, the first really big product to use it has just been introduced.
http://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/devices/
Since Android has done quite well, its not unreasonable to expect other alternative OS' to gain a foothold.
Hey, you guys are encouraging development for AmigaOS. What the market share for that (and, yeah, it probably is larger then the one for MorphOS).
I'm not as interested in commercial success as I am in overall ease of use and utility.
The only thing commercial success helps bring is developers and software.
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The market has consistently rejected open operating systems. Linux, BSD, etc have failed to gather more than a small fraction of desktops. People like closed systems, end of story. Even Android, which is a Unix distro and open source has locked down the OS.
There's no such thing as free markets. People use what came on the computer, and that's whatever is sold at Best Buy
How do you explain the failure of AmigaOS, BEOS and OS2 then? They were all closed and I don't see any embedded devices, super computers or cellphones running either of those.
As far as android being closed, how do you figure? Android.source.com and download sources to your hearts content. The android bits have even been in the linux kernel at times.
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And Linux is Unix based, Linus' original intention was to create a free open source Unix and used his name combined with Unix to name it. We can all be glad he didn't call it Torvaldix...
Android is Linux based, not Unix based.
Well yes, counting is difficult and becoming more difficult, is an ARM tablet a computer? An intel tablet a computer. What kind of OS are Windows RT, iOS and Android? The language has yet to catch up with the reality.
And while Linux only makes up about 1% of the market, that still places it at number three behind Windows and OSX (unless you want to throw in Phone OS' like ios).
I don't expect ChromeOS to compete, but who knows?
As far as ChromeOS goes, the first really big product to use it has just been introduced.
http://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/devices/
Since Android has done quite well, its not unreasonable to expect other alternative OS' to gain a foothold.
Hey, you guys are encouraging development for AmigaOS. What the market share for that (and, yeah, it probably is larger then the one for MorphOS).
I'm not as interested in commercial success as I am in overall ease of use and utility.
The only thing commercial success helps bring is developers and software.
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As far as android being closed, how do you figure? Android.source.com and download sources to your hearts content. The android bits have even been in the linux kernel at times.
It's not all open, google play for instance isn't.
http://source.android.com/compatibility/index.html
They also keep the source secret until their device is ready & only include drivers for the hardware their new device uses. They are talking about improving the situation moving forward, but it's all a little underhanded.
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The market has consistently rejected open operating systems. Linux, BSD, etc have failed to gather more than a small fraction of desktops. People like closed systems, end of story. Even Android, which is a Unix distro and open source has locked down the OS.
It is hardly summed up so succinctly. People "like" closed source systems because that is what they know. That is what is provided to them by hardware vendors. Running windows means I can run office or my video games. It means that even if it doesn't run seamlessly I may have purchased idiot protection and I can call up some geekline and they will fix my stupid. They like them because they have no real choice in the matter. A linux or a BSD or even OS/2 or the others don't penetrate market these days because there is a behemoth spending lots of money on lawyers and leverage to make sure they do not. Even if you look at Android (which apparently is the devil himself listening to some of these posts), there is a company doing everything they can to destroy it. The market cannot decide what it wants if large monpolies are supressing innovation or even simple alternatives. Why do you think Android has Apple so scared? The same reason why the PC won in the eighties.
Seriously, folks. This isn't rocket science.
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It's not all open, google play for instance isn't.
http://source.android.com/compatibility/index.html
They also keep the source secret until their device is ready & only include drivers for the hardware their new device uses. They are talking about improving the situation moving forward, but it's all a little underhanded.
You know what? You're right. Better to spend 40 bucks on a product that you will never get a look at the source code for without an NDA. Better to support a company who threatens hardware vendors who install anything but OEM windows on it. Better to support a company who has proven itself for more than twenty years to be a vicious monopoly who will buy, litigate or outright steal its way to market saturation.
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You know what? You're right. Better to spend 40 bucks on a product that you will never get a look at the source code for without an NDA. Better to support a company who threatens hardware vendors who install anything but OEM windows on it. Better to support a company who has proven itself for more than twenty years to be a vicious monopoly who will buy, litigate or outright steal its way to market saturation.
The irony is that you are saying those things on a message board dedicated to a machine made by commodore, who were way worse than Microsoft when it came to dodgy business practises.
I'm not that bothered about seeing the source code.
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The irony is that you are saying those things on a message board dedicated to a machine made by commodore, who were way worse than Microsoft when it came to dodgy business practises.
I'm not that bothered about seeing the source code.
The irony is not lost.
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You know what? You're right. Better to spend 40 bucks on a product that you will never get a look at the source code for without an NDA. Better to support a company who threatens hardware vendors who install anything but OEM windows on it. Better to support a company who has proven itself for more than twenty years to be a vicious monopoly who will buy, litigate or outright steal its way to market saturation.
This would be the same company that lied to Congress in order to get more immigrant visa's, for low-paid Indian programmers by the way.
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The market has consistently rejected open operating systems. Linux, BSD, etc have failed to gather more than a small fraction of desktops. People like closed systems, end of story. Even Android, which is a Unix distro and open source has locked down the OS.
The market has rejected open systems because the current open systems suck for anybody who A. doesn't like to make a hobby out of OS maintenance, or B. needs more than the default install and a few packages out of the tidiest corner of x distro's repository. Once open-source manages to come up with something that's as usable out-of-the-box as the commercial alternatives and doesn't require a correspondence course to maintain, then we'll find out what the market thinks about it.
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This would be the same company that lied to Congress in order to get more immigrant visa's, for low-paid Indian programmers by the way.
But hey, If Shuttleworth integrates amazon into local searches then responds to the outcry by allowing it to be disabled, he is a lying manipulative sack of s***. If android has to restrict some source code to be released to protect their hardware vendors IP, then they are also a bunch of lying manipulative sacks as well. If Google (and linux) allow some binary blobs to allow hardware to be used properly, they are a bunch of misrepresenting jerkwads. I really don't understand this mindset. When they respond with "I don't care that I can't see the source code" and then somewhere bitch somewhere else about why their identity was stolen or find out that their hardware manufacturer had a rootkit installed from the factory (Sony anyone?), or even worse, decide that that sort of behavior is not a DEAL BREAKER, I have no hope for the future. Enjoy the Soma.
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The market has rejected open systems because the current open systems suck for anybody who A. doesn't like to make a hobby out of OS maintenance, or B. needs more than the default install and a few packages out of the tidiest corner of x distro's repository. Once open-source manages to come up with something that's as usable out-of-the-box as the commercial alternatives and doesn't require a correspondence course to maintain, then we'll find out what the market thinks about it.
A. not true.
B. not true either.
I'm guessing that the last time you tried installing a linux, it was more than 5 years ago and was a distro like gentoo or slax or LFS.
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A. not true.
B. not true either.
I'm guessing that the last time you tried installing a linux, it was more than 5 years ago and was a distro like gentoo or slax or LFS.
Did someone say "install gentoo" ?
http://i.imgur.com/oy4JJ.png
Freedom, bros, freedom.
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Did someone say "install gentoo" ?
http://i.imgur.com/oy4JJ.png
Freedom, bros, freedom.
(http://funroll-loops.info/poser.jpg)
:D
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A. not true.
B. not true either.
I'm guessing that the last time you tried installing a linux, it was more than 5 years ago and was a distro like gentoo or slax or LFS.
As I said in the two-part (http://amiga.org/forums/blog.php?b=410) rant (http://amiga.org/forums/blog.php?b=411) I wrote when I finally gave up this past November, I've been trying for the last...oh, seven or eight years to get into Linux, and with multiple distros, none of which have been tech-head stuff like Slackware. If you want to insist that what I'm saying is false, that's your business, but I am speaking from personal experience here - Linux is just plain not suitable for people who want to install and use more than a web browser, LibreOffice, and a handful of whatever games come in the repository that don't require mutually exclusive sound libraries unless you build them from source.
I've tried moderately technical distros like Fedora and run up against the fact that Linux, as an operating system (so let's not get bogged down in "it's just a kernel,") has as its underpinnings a writhing, labyrinthine mess of intricately inter-dependent toolkits, libraries, and scripts, any one of which can fail without warning or explanation the moment you change anything in any part of the system. I've tried "friendly" distros like Ubuntu (ugh) or Debian (yay,) and all they do is sweep that mess under the rug of a very nice package manager and pretend it's not there, until something goes wrong, somewhere in the works, and failure symptoms start crawling out of the walls and you realize, like a Lovecraft protagonist, that the madness was here the whole time.
Unix is forty years of cruft accumulated in turning an operating system for time-sharing mainframes with VT-100s into an operating system that can do modern desktop kind of stuff. Linux is those forty years of Unix cruft painstakingly ported to PC, and apparently at no point in the process did anybody stop and say "hey, guys, maybe some of this stuff is more complicated than it needs to be?" Except: oh wait, lots of people said that the whole time and nobody listened to them. Because the people behind Linux (and yes, I know there is no central agency - that's the problem, it's a whole culture of this disease) don't care about simplifying the needlessly complex. They thrive on needless complexity. They codify it, canonize it, worship it, appoint themselves its high priests and make their living handing down bits of its functionality to the unwashed masses, and call you a heretic if you question it.
It's too damn complicated and it's never going to get fixed until the people who steer it finally own up to that. Google had the sense to do it, but that only helps people on Android systems. As for Linux at large, the biggest change it's looking at at any time in the near future is Wayland - and don't get me wrong, XWindows is a ripe candidate for an overhaul, but that does nothing to address all of the other insane complexity.
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While I dislike any Windows vs Linux arguments (I run an OS called "AmigaOS"), I do feel my own viewpoint as being valid.... this is all my own opinion, and my own perspective on it.
I've run a lot of OSes to varying amounts from GeOS to Windows 8, via UN*X systems like Solaris 7 thru 9. I've run Linux on my A4000 APUS as well as on PCs and my wife's laptop.
My impression is this:
Linux is just great as long as you do what they expect you to do. If you want to web-browse, it's great. If you want to install an Ubuntu package (I use Ubuntu as that's what I have most experience of these days) then it's fine.
But as soon as you want to run something a bit ... different... things go a bit pear-shaped. All of a sudden you're wondering about what versions of the various different libraries you're running. Then you find out that one lib doesn't like another lib, because it's expecting a newer version....
then you realise that there's static libraries and also dynamic libraries. What you're running may be compiled with a static library which conflicts with another library you have - so you need to recompile, because your system isn't the same as the one which compiled the program you want to run, because that was a few years ago and the OS has changed since then. Then you need to recompile other libraries to support that. Which may conflict with another library you have, so you need to update that. And so on.
All that isn't an actual situation - it's just describing some of the thing that have happened in the past. However, if I've found myself descending into Linux lib hell, I can't be the only one. If I - with experience of SysAdmin'ing my own Sun machines and a CompSci degree - find Linux frustrating, then how do "normal" people find it? I can almost always sort it eventually but it can take ages sometimes. I don't have this problem with any other OS - not even Windows (which is incredibly brain-dead with its versions, but at least it all mostly "just works" ... these days) or Solaris (which is also a Unix system).
Once it's set up - it works, yes. I have Ubuntu on my wife's Compaq laptop and it runs fine. She has no problems. But then she's not doing much with it apart from simple things.
I also run it on my EEE-PC 701. It's a bit slow but works ok as long as I don't do too much "under the hood"... but as soon as I try something a little odd like running xawtv with my USB Win/TV card, or running an old version of MAME from a few years ago, or some other weird thing, I suddenly can find I need a library which I don't have. Occasionally it even tells me which library - if I'm lucky. Then I need to see if it's in the repository. If it isn't, I need to recompile it. Which probably needs another dependency I don't have, so I have to track down that one.
Overall, I find Linux the most frustrating system to run.
I like tinkering - it's quite normal for me to do something daft on my Amiga, but then I manage to fix it - I know where everything is. I know the libs: directory is my libraries. I don't have /lib and /usr/lib/ and /usr/local/lib and /opt/lib and /var/lib and everythingelse/lib. I know where my path is from a no-ss boot: it's in C:. Not /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin/, /usr/sbin/,/usr/local/bin etc. etc. etc.
This is why I don't recommend Linux to people unless I'm going to be there to look after it. When Windows goes wrong, it can normally fix itself (these days). When AmigaOS goes wrong, I can fix it. But when Linux goes wrong it can be a nightmare to fix.
I don't pretend to be the most experienced Linux user in the world. But I do know there must be some reason why I don't enjoy it in the same way as AmigaOS or even other OSes (not Windows - don't like that either but that's a different story :) ). And if I have this trouble with Linux, I dread to think what Joe Public thinks of it.
It seems to me that many people think of Linux as being for tinkerers and people who like to play with the insides of their OS. But for me, I spent more time fighting against the OS than playing in it. I can tinker with AmigaOS, and it lets me do it. With Linux, it fights me all the way.
That's why - for me - Linux still isn't accepted by the general public. Like it or loathe it, Windows "just works" these days, and where it doesn't work, most of the time it tells you why and gives you a solution. That's what's missing from Linux. The other extreme is AmigaOS - things often don't work, because you're missing this or that - but it's easy to find out with a little knowledge of the OS why it doesn't work, and fix it. Hence for me, Windows = best option for Joe Public, AmigaOS = best option for tinkering hobbyist.
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(very many words)
It seems to me that many people think of Linux as being for tinkerers and people who like to play with the insides of their OS. But for me, I spent more time fighting against the OS than playing in it. I can tinker with AmigaOS, and it lets me do it. With Linux, it fights me all the way.
That's why - for me - Linux still isn't accepted by the general public. Like it or loathe it, Windows "just works" these days, and where it doesn't work, most of the time it tells you why and gives you a solution. That's what's missing from Linux. The other extreme is AmigaOS - things often don't work, because you're missing this or that - but it's easy to find out with a little knowledge of the OS why it doesn't work, and fix it. Hence for me, Windows = best option for Joe Public, AmigaOS = best option for tinkering hobbyist.
Well said.
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Well said.
Um, yeah, IF you're using a current version.
AND btw, even WinXP SP2 isn't current enough for Windows update to work with correctly.
As I've mentioned before, in order to use a 2005 copy of Win XP Media Center I had to manually install SP3, then let the system install 119 software patches, then install Java, Flash, a PDF reader and a bunch of audio and video codecs (so that I could play DVDs and work with video and audio files).
So no gentleman, it doesn't "just work".
I can install Ubuntu just about as easily as Win7 and get similar functionality.
But like ANY OS, if I want to do something that isn't mainstream I'm going to have to work on it.
BFD.
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Um, yeah, IF you're using a current version.
AND btw, even WinXP SP2 isn't current enough for Windows update to work with correctly.
As I've mentioned before, in order to use a 2005 copy of Win XP Media Center I had to manually install SP3, then let the system install 119 software patches, then install Java, Flash, a PDF reader and a bunch of audio and video codecs (so that I could play DVDs and work with video and audio files).
So no gentleman, it doesn't "just work".
I can install Ubuntu just about as easily as Win7 and get similar functionality.
But like ANY OS, if I want to do something that isn't mainstream I'm going to have to work on it.
BFD.
To be honest/fair MS can't include too much in the base OS because of anti-trust lawsuits. Imagine if Windows came with Paint.Net, VLCPlayer, SumatraPDF etc. (imagine MS bought those companies) all the anti-trust lawsuit lawyers would cream their pants, because OMFG MICROSOFT IS TRYING TO MONOPOLY!!!!!
Already there are mumblings of a lawsuit due to including MSE in Windows8 and the App store in "Metro". I wouldn't be surprised either.
In closing MSE is pretty damn good, anyone who runs a Windows system and wants Virus protection is well advised to pick up a copy (for free)
In double closing: Java.... ewww.... burn it off your computer because **** Oracle.
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In double closing: Java.... ewww.... burn it off your computer because **** Oracle.
Actually, Java has never been a problem for me. Now ActiveX, that was just stupid.
I forgot about VLC Player. Thank God, that's available (its one of the packages I downloaded), plus with it onboard I now have additional codecs for Media Player.
And I'm not likely to adopt Win8 any time soon as there are no features that it provides that I desire.
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Actually, Java has never been a problem for me. Now ActiveX, that was just stupid.
I forgot about VLC Player. Thank God, that's available (its one of the packages I downloaded), plus with it onboard I now have additional codecs for Media Player.
And I'm not likely to adopt Win8 any time soon as there are no features that it provides that I desire.
Yeah not going to go and upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. I do want a Surface though, but at the moment I'm not going to buy one. I'll wait until another manufacturer releases a decent x86 tablet for under $500. I heard AMD mumbling about having a decent processor in the works for tablets, I like AMD because their RADEON line is great.
Being able to walk around my store using a handheld scanner to enter/order items directly into my POS/inventory software will be a pretty nice thing to have.
edit: Some people don't like VLC, Windows Media Player Classic is pretty good as well. I do like winamp for music though, the classic interface makes me be able to pretend I am using AmigaAmp.
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Not sure I'm ready for this yet (I don't own a Smartphone or any other multi-touch device).
Who knows? Maybe in the future.
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Not sure I'm ready for this yet (I don't own a Smartphone or any other multi-touch device).
Who knows? Maybe in the future.
I resisted smartphones as long as possible. Now that I have one I couldn't go without the ability to check my calendar on the go. That's the main thing I use it for, and to prove my friends that I am right during arguments.
I do like Siri on my friends phones because I can ask it where Steve Jobs is buried, and where Tim Cook parks his car. I also take their phones and change it so Siri thinks their name is "Bitch please" and other silly things.
Android is great though for nerds, you can get UAE4Droid and use wii controllers to play "them games"
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I resisted smartphones as long as possible. Now that I have one I couldn't go without the ability to check my calendar on the go.
Feature phones had calendar's too, how old was the phone you used to have?
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Only feature I've ever used on my feature phone is the alarm clock. I don't even have text-messaging. Suits me fine.
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As I said in the two-part (http://amiga.org/forums/blog.php?b=410) rant (http://amiga.org/forums/blog.php?b=411) I wrote when I finally gave up this past November, I've been trying for the last...oh, seven or eight years to get into Linux, and with multiple distros, none of which have been tech-head stuff like Slackware. If you want to insist that what I'm saying is false, that's your business, but I am speaking from personal experience here - Linux is just plain not suitable for people who want to install and use more than a web browser, LibreOffice, and a handful of whatever games come in the repository that don't require mutually exclusive sound libraries unless you build them from source.
I've tried moderately technical distros like Fedora and run up against the fact that Linux, as an operating system (so let's not get bogged down in "it's just a kernel,") has as its underpinnings a writhing, labyrinthine mess of intricately inter-dependent toolkits, libraries, and scripts, any one of which can fail without warning or explanation the moment you change anything in any part of the system. I've tried "friendly" distros like Ubuntu (ugh) or Debian (yay,) and all they do is sweep that mess under the rug of a very nice package manager and pretend it's not there, until something goes wrong, somewhere in the works, and failure symptoms start crawling out of the walls and you realize, like a Lovecraft protagonist, that the madness was here the whole time.
Unix is forty years of cruft accumulated in turning an operating system for time-sharing mainframes with VT-100s into an operating system that can do modern desktop kind of stuff. Linux is those forty years of Unix cruft painstakingly ported to PC, and apparently at no point in the process did anybody stop and say "hey, guys, maybe some of this stuff is more complicated than it needs to be?" Except: oh wait, lots of people said that the whole time and nobody listened to them. Because the people behind Linux (and yes, I know there is no central agency - that's the problem, it's a whole culture of this disease) don't care about simplifying the needlessly complex. They thrive on needless complexity. They codify it, canonize it, worship it, appoint themselves its high priests and make their living handing down bits of its functionality to the unwashed masses, and call you a heretic if you question it.
It's too damn complicated and it's never going to get fixed until the people who steer it finally own up to that. Google had the sense to do it, but that only helps people on Android systems. As for Linux at large, the biggest change it's looking at at any time in the near future is Wayland - and don't get me wrong, XWindows is a ripe candidate for an overhaul, but that does nothing to address all of the other insane complexity.
I get it commodorejohn. You use Photoshop and XP. You KNOW photoshop and XP. That's what you use. You could not make whatever linux flavors you tried do what you could do productively with your normal setup. You tried it and didn't like it. It sounds like linux is NOT the right OS for you.
However, that does not change the underlying fact that your conclusions on linux are nowhere in the realm of accurate or factual to the state of the linux world. You rant and rave about a few apps in userland. I specifically mentioned earlier the reason people don't switch to linux is due to specific sandboxed userland programs. Photoshop happens to be a huge one. Of course the Gimp is a crappy program compared to Photoshop. A quick google would have brought that to light. There is no Photoshop for linux, and the solutions to get it working under linux would have taken a little light reading, some downloads of compatibility software (wine, etc) and some tweaking. Why bother if that is so soul crushing? Stick with what is easy and what works.
I was responding specifically to your assertion that you have to spend considerable time and effort to maintain a linux installation or that it requires "correspondence course" level awareness. That is false. I want the stupid assumptions and FUD to stop. I give two sh**s what you run.
Now, on topic. Evidently first shallow impressions count a lot. Windows 8 sucks because there is no startmenu widget and the metro equivalent is so in your face. It shows me everything I may want to start, including my old non "app" ified programs. I don't know where anything is because I do not have the patience to learn something new. I can't operate google so I don't know how to set anything up. Also I refuse to follow the helpful hints because...what does it think I am, stupid? This is obviously Microsofts fault because they made this so damn complicated to work and install. I had to click almost 8 times before it would install! EIGHT! Many of my odd OS specific programs don't work properly, therefore I predict a total collapse of Microsoft and a huge spike in Windows 8 certifications just so that normal users can operate it. I mean, come on! This is such a bloated piece of crap - windows is just tons of kludge built onto a crap disk operating system that barely ran on 1 mhz processors. I want it to JUST WORK, and my definition of broken is not conforming to my narrow worldview of what constitutes a real operating system.
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Um, yeah, IF you're using a current version.
AND btw, even WinXP SP2 isn't current enough for Windows update to work with correctly.
As I've mentioned before, in order to use a 2005 copy of Win XP Media Center I had to manually install SP3, then let the system install 119 software patches, then install Java, Flash, a PDF reader and a bunch of audio and video codecs (so that I could play DVDs and work with video and audio files).
So no gentleman, it doesn't "just work".
That actually sounds like a breeze. The only thing that makes it sound slightly annoying is that going from SP2 doesn't automatically download SP3. It always used to, but I never used media centre & it could have broken in the mean time. Big deal that it downloaded 119 patches automatically, that counts as it just works.
The rest of the software is stuff that doesn't actually belong in an operating system. I'm surprised about not being able to play DVD's, I thought that would have been one of the points about media centre. But bundling a DVD player with windows means they have to play for a license based on the cost of the OS, which is why they've made it separate again.
IIRC Microsoft used to bundle Java, but Sun stopped them. If they bundled Adobe PDF reader then they'd probably receive an anti-trust case from foxit and vice versa. They are even forced to provide E & N versions of Windows that don't include things like Windows Media Player or IE in Europe.
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That actually sounds like a breeze. The only thing that makes it sound slightly annoying is that going from SP2 doesn't automatically download SP3. It always used to, but I never used media centre & it could have broken in the mean time. Big deal that it downloaded 119 patches automatically, that counts as it just works.
Actually, my primary complaint is being forced to manually download SP3.
It used to work via Windows update, but Microsoft has decide to stop supporting older (than SP3) versions of XP. Which is silly because they'll still let you have it if you use the method IT managers use.
And no, I don't consider spending a couple hours sorting out an instillation to be a case of "it just works".
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Feature phones had calendar's too, how old was the phone you used to have?
I mean google calander, I need to be able to let multiple people access my calender one confined to my phone wont work.
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Only feature I've ever used on my feature phone is the alarm clock. I don't even have text-messaging. Suits me fine.
You're a bad consumer. Please turn on your TV for re-education.
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Just kill the TV (or use it as a monitor).
Except for news and weather, I only watch AMC or DVD/Blu-Rays anyway.
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You're a bad consumer. Please turn on your TV for re-education.
I'm afraid I never bought an HDTV converter box...I may have to report to the Ministry of Consumer Re-Education directly... :eek:
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I'm afraid I never bought an HDTV converter box...I may have to report to the Ministry of Consumer Re-Education directly... :eek:
Oh my. Please tell me you at least watch the Hulu Plus and let them know which ads are applicable to you!
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Oh my. Please tell me you at least watch the Hulu Plus and let them know which ads are applicable to you!
...umm...uh...no?
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That actually sounds like a breeze. The only thing that makes it sound slightly annoying is that going from SP2 doesn't automatically download SP3. It always used to, but I never used media centre & it could have broken in the mean time. Big deal that it downloaded 119 patches automatically, that counts as it just works.
My wife's aging laptop ran XP until it died about a year ago. Re-installing XP and all the updates seemed to take about 2 or 3 days each time it needed a re-install. Between the speed of her laptop and then having to wait until morning to see if the updates were done before another reboot, etc., is why it took so long. It was utterly painful having to go through all that. This is one area where things could have used some serious streamlining on the installer side, at that point it would be better just downloading some latest distribution of XP with all the fixes in places and install it all at once.
For our computers I always just run the version of Windows it came with and never upgrade it. No way in hell I'd ever fork out $$$ for a new version of Windows. Especially when traditionally you can get a new computer with OEM Windows for not much more than the cost of Windows purchased separately. Honestly I don't really care much either, I'm fine with running Vista or whatever until the computer craps itself.
I played around with Ubuntu in that time thinking to move her on to that as I was so sick of the install issue. I have to say it seemed way less painful getting a distribution up and running. At least it's always up to date since you can just freely download the latest. However, it did turn out her laptop wasn't 100% compatible so it was a no go (I was trying Ubuntu on some other computer). That's the main thing that has kept me off Linux, compatibility issues, I seem to have weird computers that aren't well supported. Otherwise I'd probably be all over Linux throughout the house, even just for more piece of mind on the malware side.
I don't know why but she seemed to be good at getting viruses, that's why all the re-installs. Damned evil crafting sites or something. Funny enough that's why I got back into Amiga, I was wondering if I could hook her Amiga 2000 back up to see if she could connect to the internet on that ... pretty sure she couldn't cock that up with a virus.
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The only thing that makes it sound slightly annoying is that going from SP2 doesn't automatically download SP3.
Actually, it can with the auto update feature. However, it's better to turn that crap off, and use the network installation version of service pack 3. Much easier and faster.
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Why would any one ever install windows with anything other than the most current install disc?
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Why would any one ever install windows with anything other than the most current install disc?
The last Windows I bought was XP... I have no desire to buy a newer version as I only use it to run legacy software in Bootcamp.
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Microsoft's share of all "personal devices" -- which include PCs, smartphones, and tablets -- is only around 30 per cent.
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Why would any one ever install windows with anything other than the most current install disc?
Perhaps because someone doesn't have the latest version, but only the one with service pack 2 :rolleyes:
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Always baffled me why people don't use slipstreamed versions for installs.
I've been using nLite for years and can't imagine not using it.
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Wow, there seems to be heaps of hate and misinformation here about Linux.
I run Linux almost exclusively. The only app I lack under Windows is Cubase. I have a lot of history, investment and time/experience tied up in Cubase.
Photoshop? For what most of us do, GIMP is actually more than sufficient. I know many professional photographers who do the majority of their post processing in GIMP. I personally use Darktable (an Adobe Lightroom clone) as my only RAW image converter/processor. I also do video editing using OpenShot and 3D modelling/rendering (again for video) using Blender.
These are fantastic software packages, not half-arsed buggy 'compile from source', 'lib dependency hell' packages. Most software you could ever want is available in standard (or extended) repos. It just works.
As for drivers, I've not had any driver issues for years. This isn't even true of Windows, which still seems to require additional drivers for basic things like printers, some USB chipsets (USB3?), any even slightly unusual soundcards etc.
Window managers - how can choice be a bad thing? People love OSX because it's different. People also love KDE, Gnome, Xfce etc - different solutions for different people. Some like the window manager to hide in the background, others like gadgets and interactive toys to brighten up their desktop experience.
There seems to be a huge amount of hate for Unity but ... you know what? It's mostly just a launcher; It launches apps. I spend most of my time actually using applications - not bitching about the lack of some wizzy composite effect, or the fact I now have to right click whereas before I could left click.
Check out these packages, then their windows (or OSX) equivalents (and their costs) and you may find yourself reconsidering Linux.
Darktable: http://www.darktable.org/ (Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Sony etc RAW editor)
OpenShot: http://www.openshotvideo.com/
Blender: http://www.blender.org/
GIMP: http://www.gimp.org/
Libre Office: http://www.libreoffice.org/
Linux *is* now a mature OS with mature applications. Your decade (or more) worth of Windows experience may not be easily transferable, but then this would be equally true if you moved to OSX (which is also rock solid with superb applications), or any other desktop OS.
It's sad that I feel the need to defend Linux on an Amiga forum. You guys are dismissing a whole world of quality free software - you're seriously missing out.
Seriously, I can't give enough thanks to the developers of Darktable, Openshot, Blender and GIMP plus Linux / OSS in general. Having such amazing software available for free is just incredible.
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Perhaps because someone doesn't have the latest version, but only the one with service pack 2 :rolleyes:
Thank you!
Virtually all commercial WinXP CDs are SP2 or earlier.
Win Vista came out before Win XP SP3.
The XP Media Center CDs I have (XP SP2) came with free upgrade offers for Vista.
"Why would any one ever install windows with anything other than the most current install disc? "
Because some of us actually pay for our install media.
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Thanks TCMSLP,
I wholly agree that Linux is a mature and complete useful alternative to commercial, closed OS'.
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Why would any one ever install windows with anything other than the most current install disc?
If you aren't pirating it, you get the one that came on your purchase disk? That may not be current or service packed.
EDIT: Iggy beat me to it :P
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Never heard of slipstreaming?
http://lifehacker.com/386526/slipstream-service-pack-3-into-your-windows-xp-installation-cd (http://lifehacker.com/386526/slipstream-service-pack-3-into-your-windows-xp-installation-cd)
If you aren't pirating it, you get the one that came on your purchase disk? That may not be current or service packed.
EDIT: Iggy beat me to it :P
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Photoshop? For what most of us do, GIMP is actually more than sufficient. I know many professional photographers who do the majority of their post processing in GIMP.
GIMP's functionality is aces, but its interface sucks. It's a halfway clone of Photoshop that doesn't actually finish the cloning and is thus not nearly as usable. I haven't gotten a chance to try "single-window mode" in GIMP, but I would be very surprised if it was much better, given how braindead the UI was before - though at least it shouldn't be spraying windows all over creation and not even showing enough intelligence to keep its own document windows from overlapping its tool palettes, anymore.
These are fantastic software packages, not half-arsed buggy 'compile from source', 'lib dependency hell' packages. Most software you could ever want is available in standard (or extended) repos. It just works.
And as long as "most software you could ever want" (read: whatever software the maintainers have felt like adding) is good enough, then you only have to worry about the baffling number of packages that, say, Synaptic concludes are mutually exclusive even though they have nothing to do with each other, or that depend on libraries that will muck up existing libraries that other applications depend on (yay, PulseAudio!)
And when the program you want isn't in the repository, well, it isn't. You get to build it from source anyway, because the developer might have one old compile for one of the eleventy billion deprecated ABI versions on whichever architecture they happen to use, which is invariably different from whatever your setup is. And of course you'll have to install all the prerequisite libraries, hopefully they're in the repository, and in versions that are compatible with the program you're trying to build!
As for drivers, I've not had any driver issues for years.
Why is it that so many people think "well I've never had any trouble!" is a meaningful response to the people who have?
Check out these packages, then their windows (or OSX) equivalents (and their costs) and you may find yourself reconsidering Linux.
GIMP: http://www.gimp.org/
GIMP is the last straw that drove me away from Linux.
Your decade (or more) worth of Windows experience may not be easily transferable, but then this would be equally true if you moved to OSX (which is also rock solid with superb applications), or any other desktop OS.
Actually, I've had a much easier time of it acclimating to OSX merely on a hobby basis when using my PowerBook for writing purposes than I did in my multiple attempts to fully switch over to Linux on a daily-driver basis.
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GIMP's functionality is aces, but its interface sucks.
I love linux, but I have to agree here. I dislike gimp as well.
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I love linux, but I have to agree here. I dislike gimp as well.
I love PAINT.NET it's perfect for small jobs. Though it's not available for linux. I tried gimp as well and wasn't a big fan either.
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It's sad that I feel the need to defend Linux on an Amiga forum.
How does Linux have any relationship at all to the Amiga?
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How does Linux have any relationship at all to the Amiga?
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/03/17/why-linux-is-the-new-amiga/
:D
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Funny, but I don' find that much difference between 98 and ME, except that ME has more drivers built in and requires the CD less often when adding hardware.
Then again, people gave Vista a bad rap, and it might deserve it more in that it is more crash prone then its predecessor (ME is not, in fact its pretty much a polished version of '98).
I've been using Windows since version 3.0 and each time a new version comes out there's always some part of the market that dislikes the new version. Then, eventually, enough people adopt it (or wait) that it becomes a hit (or a miss).
A lot of software for Windows 9x (especially games) simply refused to work with ME, while the same software could be made to work with XP by configuring the compatibility settings. All of this left ME stuck in the middle, where it's usefulness got seriously limited.
What I find funny is how quickly some people forget the past. Because what happened when Vista was launched, is exactly what happened when XP was launched as well. As a matter of fact, the issues with no longer working drivers was much worse with the switch from 98 to XP.
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@Spiranto and commodorejohn.
Both of you have articulated my thoughts and experiences with Linux. Its a frustrating system to use and maintain.
I wanted to like it, I really did, and I gave it a go for 5 FRICKEN YEARS, far too much of which I simply WASTED, on doing what SHOULD be simple things, things that should work out of the box-like mounting a cd image for example.
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Since what version does windows support mounting an ISO ? Without downloading an external app like demontools
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If you aren't pirating it, you get the one that came on your purchase disk? That may not be current or service packed.
EDIT: Iggy beat me to it :P
Personally I install Windows XP on pc's by using a XP CD with SP3 included, and even though I downloaded it from a torrent site, I don't consider this to be piracy since I still need genuine license keys for installing.
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Since what version does windows support mounting an ISO ? Without downloading an external app like demontools
Windows 8 finally has it.
Also, how hard is:
mkdir /media/myISO
(sudo) mount -t iso9660 myISO.iso -o loop
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Personally I install Windows XP on pc's by using a XP CD with SP3 included, and even though I downloaded it from a torrent site, I don't consider this to be piracy since I still need genuine license keys for installing.
I have done that as well, however I worry that those isos are rootkitted.
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Also, how hard is:
mkdir /media/myISO
(sudo) mount -t iso9660 myISO.iso -o loop
Harder than installing Daemon Tools, that's for certain.
Edit: or was that sarcasm?
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I have done that as well, however I worry that those isos are rootkitted.
Yes it is always a good idea to be a bit careful with stuff like this. The iso I use does not include any kind of cracks, and it was only downloaded after reading all comments that it got on the site where I found it.
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Since what version does windows support mounting an ISO ? Without downloading an external app like demontools
Windows doesn't claim that it supports mounting of images, Linux does.
But it didn't, for me.
With Windows I download whatever CD mounting software I want, click install, it works. Under 2 minutes.
In Ubuntu, it was download this library because synaptic didn't have it, go to some obscure author's site, COMPILE it, but wait, my OS is too new, so the old library the mount software needs conflicts with something else in my OS.
The fact that there is STILL this level of "robust" discussion about Linux's short comings says it all really.
I get that it works for people out there, and good luck to them.
Me? I'll pay the MS tax, because my time is worth something.
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Windows 8 finally has it.
Also, how hard is:
mkdir /media/myISO
(sudo) mount -t iso9660 myISO.iso -o loop
In theory its probably a mid level user task. BUT it DID NOT work on Ubuntu 9.10, for me. Why I don't know.
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Um, yeah, IF you're using a current version.
AND btw, even WinXP SP2 isn't current enough for Windows update to work with correctly.
As I've mentioned before, in order to use a 2005 copy of Win XP Media Center I had to manually install SP3, then let the system install 119 software patches, then install Java, Flash, a PDF reader and a bunch of audio and video codecs (so that I could play DVDs and work with video and audio files).
So no gentleman, it doesn't "just work".
I can install Ubuntu just about as easily as Win7 and get similar functionality.
But like ANY OS, if I want to do something that isn't mainstream I'm going to have to work on it.
BFD.
try ubuntu 5.04 and see how far you get...
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Windows doesn't claim that it supports mounting of images, Linux does.
But it didn't, for me.
With Windows I download whatever CD mounting software I want, click install, it works. Under 2 minutes.
In Ubuntu, it was download this library because synaptic didn't have it, go to some obscure author's site, COMPILE it, but wait, my OS is too new, so the old library the mount software needs conflicts with something else in my OS.
The fact that there is STILL this level of "robust" discussion about Linux's short comings says it all really.
I get that it works for people out there, and good luck to them.
Me? I'll pay the MS tax, because my time is worth something.
Linux sucks because you failed to do something that you can't do in windows either?
Sure, pay your tax. You're the kind of person who needs to pay it.
The rest of us spent 2 minutes installing acetone from synaptic and mounting ISO's using a simple GUI.
This is like me bitching that windows is ****, because it doesn't toast bread, and thus, I am buying a Mac.
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Linux sucks because you failed to do something that you can't do in windows either?
Sure, pay your tax. You're the kind of person who needs to pay it.
LOL. Typical Linux zealot attitude.
Yep, its ALWAYS someone else's fault that Linux sucks, never the system itself..
And what sort exactly do you think I am?
r didn't I give it enough time ? Was FIVE YEARS not long enough?
The rest of us spent 2 minutes installing acetone from synaptic and mounting ISO's using a simple GUI.
Oh I tried acetone. DID NO WORK, get it?
And no this wasn't the only reason..
This is like me bitching that windows is ****, because it doesn't toast bread, and thus, I am buying a Mac.
No, not at all, but hey I've seen enough Linux zealots to see one here..
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Oh please. Using a different install disc is not piracy. It's convenience. You're using the same software license and ending up with the same install. The only difference is that you're saving yourself time and saving you and MS some bandwidth.
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Harder than installing Daemon Tools, that's for certain.
Edit: or was that sarcasm?
Maybe a little. I happen to love the command line. Some people hate it. I also happen to love windows powershell, although it is a crap imitation of zsh.... unless you know how to access all the dotnet goodies.
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LOL. Typical Linux zealot attitude.
Aww, cmon. If the shoe fits... Who cares? You run windows. Pay the tax. If you run mac, you are getting the benefit of vetted hardware the same as if you bought a Dell laptop made for Ubuntu. If you manage to F*** up an install where the hardware is all supported, it certainly isn't the software's fault. I have had machines that I could not get linux running satisfactory on before, or rather I should say that certain chipsets did not work right or were not supported at all. Granted, that was in the late 90s and pre-kernel 2.4. Truth is I haven't had to compile a kernel by hand since my 400Mhz AMD was my brand new badass machine. All of you windows lovers forget there was a learning curve for it as well, you just put the time in ages ago and are not being honest with how long it took you to get up to speed.
Yep, its ALWAYS someone else's fault that Linux sucks, never the system itself..
Yes, sometimes that is exactly true. Othertimes it is not. This is why in big person land we don't work in tautologies unless we are doing truth tables.
And what sort exactly do you think I am?
Bubble sort? Quicksort? Selection sort? I give up.
r didn't I give it enough time ? Was FIVE YEARS not long enough?
Yes. Five years was long enough. Although I find this sort of comment hard to believe. Does this mean that you stuck with the same computer and linux OS for Five years and were completely unable to get it running? That nowhere in that five year span did you learn to use a terminal shell? That you couldn't bother to read a man file? That sounds like an awful time.
I think more realistically that every once in a while, lets say every 6 months or so (or every release cycle of a new flavor) you burned a live ISO, slapped it on an available partition, spent the time getting dual boot going, booted into it once or twice to mess about, got frustrated with the fact that there is a learning curve involved and wiped it off again.
Oh I tried acetone. DID NO WORK, get it?
And no this wasn't the only reason..
Well, thank goodness virtualclonedrive works great under windows! Variety is the spice of life as they say.
No, not at all, but hey I've seen enough Linux zealots to see one here..
Really? Come on, now. A zealot?
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Yes. Five years was long enough. Although I find this sort of comment hard to believe. Does this mean that you stuck with the same computer and linux OS for Five years and were completely unable to get it running? That nowhere in that five year span did you learn to use a terminal shell? That you couldn't bother to read a man file? That sounds like an awful time.
I think more realistically that every once in a while, lets say every 6 months or so (or every release cycle of a new flavor) you burned a live ISO, slapped it on an available partition, spent the time getting dual boot going, booted into it once or twice to mess about, got frustrated with the fact that there is a learning curve involved and wiped it off again.
Wow. Way to ask for clarification and then impugn someone's honesty without even letting them answer in the same post...
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Wow. Way to ask for clarification and then impugn someone's honesty without even letting them answer in the same post...
Goodness sake, was it really that harsh? That's what lots of people do.
Not liking linux or not getting it to install has nothing to do with your geek cred, or penis size, or IQ.
People are ranting against linux in a microsoft thread on an Amiga forum. Obviously there must be some emotion behind these sentiments.
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People are ranting against linux in a microsoft thread on an Amiga forum. Obviously there must be some emotion behind these sentiments.
So how 'bout them atari's ?
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Not liking linux or not getting it to install has nothing to do with your geek cred, or penis size, or IQ.
...what.
People are ranting against linux in a microsoft thread on an Amiga forum. Obviously there must be some emotion behind these sentiments.
Uh, yes? Emotions contributing to such opinions would include: frustration at the needless, Byzantine complexity of the operating system, irritation at the way simple tasks can balloon out into huge projects merely because library X doesn't like library Y and library Z isn't even in the repository, despair of ever getting the system into a state where it both has a complete complement of software needed for the end-user's daily workflow and is working and stable, and anger at zealots who respond to every criticism of their favorite operating system with "you didn't really have that problem," "it works for me," "these issues don't exist," "you don't need that missing feature," "RTFM," "it's really not as complicated as you're pretending it is," "if you don't want hassle why don't you just go back to Windows, you whiner," and so on and so forth.
All of those have been expressed openly in the thread; it's not exactly like anybody was trying to keep it a secret. (And as for the fact that it's being discussed in this thread, the Linux advocates were the ones who brought it up in the first place; the ranting was in reaction to the constant suggestions that maybe this will be the chance for Linux to finally overtake Windows, as if its failure to do so for the last twenty years has only stemmed from a lack of opportunity, and Linux's perpetual failure to address its underlying issues - except for a few projects that seem to be targeted at mouthbreathing idiots under the impression that that's what ordinary users are - is not a factor at all.)
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Ordinary users are mouthbreating idiots. Have you not read BOFH?
But seriously. When Windows pisses me off with its own labrynthine absurdities, its DLL hells, its craptastic insistence on some specific library or .Net version, its poor 64 bit support, or its inability to get at what is wrong to fix it, I don't get pissed at all the windows people who behave like zealots and call me TDO. Windows 7 and 8 are the VERY FIRST that have run stable for me, and by stable I mean not BSODing after any length of uptime. XP was marginally tolerable once I spent days tweaking registry entries. I have had to twiddle every operating system I've used in some way or another. The difference is I recognize that all operating systems suck, its just where they suck and what bull**** you have to do to get them running right.
Don't even get me started on that pile of crap known as AmigaOS.
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For acknowledging that all systems suck, you've spent a fair bit of this sub-discussion responding to Linux critics with "you're not really having the problems that you say you're having, and furthermore you probably haven't tried enough and aren't up to date, and also everything you're saying is FUD."
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For acknowledging that all systems suck, you've spent a fair bit of this sub-discussion responding to Linux critics with "you're not really having the problems that you say you're having, and furthermore you probably haven't tried enough and aren't up to date, and also everything you're saying is FUD."
That's because you aren't having any of the problems you say you are having and you haven't tried enough and you aren't up to date and you are spreading FUD. :P
Its one thing to not like Linux or windows due to some bad experience. Its another to say that Linux or windows is inherently flawed, unable to be successful because it is massively flawed, that the many groups who work on aspects of the Linux kernel based operating systems have no knowledge or clue about useable design, or many of the other completely absurd things said by several different people just because it did not work for them. That IS fud.
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Its one thing to not like Linux or windows due to some bad experience. Its another to say that Linux or windows is inherently flawed, unable to be successful because it is massively flawed, that the many groups who work on aspects of the Linux kernel based operating systems have no knowledge or clue about useable design, or many of the other completely absurd things said by several different people just because it did not work for them. That IS fud.
Where is the distinction there? Are we only supposed to harbor some kind of arbitrary, unreasoning resentment, and any complaints that address specific issues and posit root causes for them are somehow FUD? That doesn't make any sense. I wasn't saying that Linux has bad UI design because I was frustrated with the library issues and wanted to vent, I was saying it because I experienced many very specific issues with the overall UI design. Similarly, I think that the reason for its failure to make any major impact on the desktop market does stem from the fact that it isn't accessible to ordinary users and is overly complex, and nobody has made any serious efforts to address that in the twenty years it's been in development. I honestly think that, it's not something I'm just saying out of spite. It's not fear because I'm not trying to scare people away from Linux - by all means, try it yourself and see. It's not uncertainty because it is in no way vague or unclear. And I'm not seeking to sow doubt; I'm expressing my own analysis of the state of things.
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Where is the distinction there? Are we only supposed to harbor some kind of arbitrary, unreasoning resentment, and any complaints that address specific issues and posit root causes for them are somehow FUD? That doesn't make any sense. I wasn't saying that Linux has bad UI design because I was frustrated with the library issues and wanted to vent, I was saying it because I experienced many very specific issues with the overall UI design. Similarly, I think that the reason for its failure to make any major impact on the desktop market does stem from the fact that it isn't accessible to ordinary users and is overly complex, and nobody has made any serious efforts to address that in the twenty years it's been in development. I honestly think that, it's not something I'm just saying out of spite. It's not fear because I'm not trying to scare people away from Linux - by all means, try it yourself and see. It's not uncertainty because it is in no way vague or unclear. And I'm not seeking to sow doubt; I'm expressing my own analysis of the state of things.
Fair enough on that. You honestly haven't been the biggest sower. I'm too tired to sort back through this list, but my main beef started with blatantly false statements and then took off into some snark where the truth line becomes a bit more fuzzy. I'm too tired tonight to keep responding and I have had a hand in derailing this Win8 thread (win 8 BTW just replaced my win 7 install. Its a great Microsoft product. It is way worth the price, especially if you are still running XP, unless you are still running XP on a P4. Then, you should upgrade) so I think I'll sleep on it and break my thoughts on this out into a new thread.
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People were trying to be constructive, while a certain individual wanted to just complain.
Some people are completely happy with Linux as an OS. With an mp3 player and browser it does everything they need. It is a small amount compared to the Windows bandwagon. They do not have the claimed trouble with Linux.
I certainly have had incompatible hardware with Windows or else had to wait a year for an updated driver.
btw How long do you end up waiting for an Amiga driver to be released?
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...unless you are still running XP on a P4. Then, you should upgrade)
P4?
Hey, I sold my Phenom II a couple of months ago, and bought an i5 for my Hacckintosh.
But I've still got one machine with a PIII (@1.5GHz)!
And another with a Socket A Athlon!
Both of those are going to continue to run XP for pretty much forever.
And I have Win7 on the i5 Under Parallels.
Why would I want to upgrade to Win8?
On the two old machine, upgrading the OS to Ubuntu would be more economical then changing the hardware.
And there nothing offered by Win8 that would improve the Hackintosh.
Win8 might be a great product if you're running XP or Vista on relatively modern hardware, otherwise why bother?
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Wow. I'm really sorry to hear people have such a difficult time with Linux. Mounting an ISO image has been a simple task for a very long time and it certainly was not broken in Ubuntu 9.10. It sounds much more likely the ISO was corrupt, or in fact not an ISO at all (perhaps a zipped ISO without the .zip extension?). Regardless, I'm sad to hear it was a world of frustration for people.
Regarding the comments on Gimp - I don't understand any of the criticisms. I wasn't a Photoshop user, instead I migrated from Degas Elite (Atari ST), to Deluxe Paint (Amiga), to Paint Shop Pro (Windows) to Gimp (Linux). The path wasn't at all painful and I can still switch between Gimp and PSP with very little frustration (basic tools, layer windows etc are all very alike). Are you sure it's not Photoshop which breaks the convention? I've heard people say Photoshop has a learning curve and can be difficult to get started with - I have no personal experience here.
My surprise at defending Linux on an Amiga forum? Perhaps I should have worded that as my surprise people are so pro-Windows on an Amiga forum. The reason I felt so at home in Linux was due to years of experience with the Amiga. Amiga (AmigaDOS?) to Linux (BASH) seemed a natural progression, certainly a lot more natural than Amiga to Windows.
If anyone needs any Linux support please feel free to poke me.
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I use Linux a lot, mostly on 4+ year old laptops with (by now) fairly well-supported hardware when I think something like Xubuntu would outperform Windows 7. However, there is the occasional issue of a WiFi chipset not being supported out of the box, usually easily remedied by using something like an "install third-party drivers" option while hooked up to Ethernet (which always seems to work for me.)
However, I've got a newer laptop here with some (probably) less-well supported hardware, Alienware with a hybrid nVidia/Intel video chipset. I'm going to download one distro (Fedora, probably not the friendliest one to start with) and give it 10 minutes to see if I can get it running well enough to be a daily driver. Lets see what happens.
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@BilgeRat.
1. I didn't f**k up the install. I know that *I* didn't because the only software installed was from the official repo's. But the one constant with every distro I used was that a with each update, however small, the OS itself *could* f**k itself up. eg PCLOS would not boot after a 150 k cd/dvd driver update.
2. In 5 years I tried Ubuntu, PCLOS, Kubuntu, Mint and Mandriva. Problems ranged from bad monitor support, bad sound support, no dial up support, roll your own mobile broadband, cd/dvd burning that was hit and miss, just off the top of my head. Sure, I learned how to use a terminal, editing menu1st blah, blah, blah. After 5 years of all this s**t, I simply had enough.
3. People talk about the "Linux Community" as a strength. But its the same "community" that in the end pisses off the users, because there are too many arrogant pr*cks, who refuse to admit that their OS is, in fact broken.
4. We have one guy here expecting an XP Mediacentre 2005 to work out of the box. FFS 18 months after I installed Ubuntu 9.10 I couldn't even update my web browser! OS no longer supported!
5. Update my OS you say? Its free. Why the f8ck should I have to do this in 18 months just to run an updated web browser? I run XP that I installed in 2007, latest web browser, no malware, ever.
6. The absolutely worst thing anyone can do is run a "rolling-update" distro. Despite what the maintainers say, they *CANNOT* guarantee that one of their updates won't bork your entire system.
Unlike you, I accept that Linux is an amateur OS on the desktop.
Frankly I am over it.
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"After 5 years of all this s**t, I simply had enough."
This is exactly how I've felt when battling with Windows in the past. The random slow downs, the driver issues causing random blue screens, the endless patch updates that always seem to be applied when least convenient (on startup or shutdown), the need to run stacks of anti virus and anti malware software just to browse the internet, the need for third party software to do absolutely *anything* useful, not to mention every windows version I've tried constantly stealing window focus on startup; you start typing in one window, only for another (windowless) background process to start and sneakily steal focus - half of what you typed has vanished. Repeat this several times during startup and I'll willingly throw the PC out the window.
And you say Linux is broken...
I suspect it's very much a case of being happiest in whatever environment you're most familiar with. Personally, I'd be very happy if I could ditch Windows 100% - it's only currently Cubase (or rather the cost of Apple hardware) that's delaying this.
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Since what version does windows support mounting an ISO ? Without downloading an external app like demontools
Windows 8, right click iso & select mount.
People are ranting against linux in a microsoft thread on an Amiga forum. Obviously there must be some emotion behind these sentiments.
It's just about giving back as good as we got. The first mention of Linux was in an anti-Microsoft post.
I think that is where the really true failure of Linux is, in it's bitter users.
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I use Linux a lot, mostly on 4+ year old laptops with (by now) fairly well-supported hardware when I think something like Xubuntu would outperform Windows 7. However, there is the occasional issue of a WiFi chipset not being supported out of the box, usually easily remedied by using something like an "install third-party drivers" option while hooked up to Ethernet (which always seems to work for me.)
However, I've got a newer laptop here with some (probably) less-well supported hardware, Alienware with a hybrid nVidia/Intel video chipset. I'm going to download one distro (Fedora, probably not the friendliest one to start with) and give it 10 minutes to see if I can get it running well enough to be a daily driver. Lets see what happens.
Fedora 17, 645MB ISO, 20 minutes to download, ~7 minutes to burn to CD, ~10 minutes to install to HD and that's all, everything supported out of the box. Runs nice.
(http://cbmvax.com/fedora.jpg)
-Posted from Fedora Linux
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W
I think that is where the really true failure of Amiga is, in it's bitter users.
Had to fix that for you :razz:
I find it quite the opposite, actually. If this thread is any indication, the bitter ones are the ones who never got Linux to work.
You can respond, but I think later today I'll put some of my thoughts down in another thread, where it can get heated and cranky without all the people waiting to know whether they should jump to windows 8 having to read all our drivel. Well, more of our drivel.
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Besides, everyone is going to end up with windows 8 anyways.
The real question is whether anyone will /pay/ for it ;)
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How long do you end up waiting for an Amiga driver to be released?
Zero seconds. All the drivers I've needed have been out for years, and available on Aminet.
Regarding the comments on Gimp - I don't understand any of the criticisms. I wasn't a Photoshop user, instead I migrated from Degas Elite (Atari ST), to Deluxe Paint (Amiga), to Paint Shop Pro (Windows) to Gimp (Linux). The path wasn't at all painful and I can still switch between Gimp and PSP with very little frustration (basic tools, layer windows etc are all very alike). Are you sure it's not Photoshop which breaks the convention? I've heard people say Photoshop has a learning curve and can be difficult to get started with - I have no personal experience here.
Photoshop has no real learning curve for basic use, the only complicated things are a few of the secondary tools that aren't immediately self-explanatory (pen tool, for example,) but once you get past that it's not difficult at all. I can't speak for your pre-GIMP experience, but it's not the layout or familiarity that's the problem with it - it's many, many smaller issues that all add up to a lot of hassle:
- Accelerators in menus and dialogs are an absolute mess - half of them assign the same letter to multiple controls, so that you have to cycle through them, which entirely defeats the point of having them. Tab-stop order is also a nonsensical jumble.
- As I recall, half the time there weren't even Enter and Esc shortcuts to submit or cancel a dialog.
- The layout appears to be based on Photoshop for Mac OS, with the menu bar up at the top and palettes floating over the desktop at the sides, but they've overlooked some crucial aspects such as:
- (Most? All?) Linux desktops don't have a Mac-like global menu bar, so they have to keep the menu confined to the document window - which means it gets added to every document opened, which is a waste of screen space they could've avoided if they'd gone with a Photoshop-for-Windows-style multiple-document interface (I understand they finally added a "single-window mode" which is almost like that, I haven't gotten a chance to try it.)
- Also, since Alt-Tab on (most?) Linux desktops switches between windows and not applications, having a dozen images open in the GIMP means having to cycle through a dozen image windows to get to, say, a web browser with a reference image, or the MP3 player so you can queue up the next album, or whatever. Another aggravation that could've been avoided if they'd just gone with the design paradigm that suited what most Linux environments are actually like.
- Furthermore, the document windows get opened wherever, completely irrespective of the application's own windows, so you can quite easily wind up with document windows overlapping (or underlapping) the tool palettes you use to work on them, and have to relocate them manually. That's just braindead. It's not like the GIMP doesn't know where its windows are.
There's a lot of that kind of stuff. It all feels like the symptoms of a project where everybody wants to work on the (admittedly cool) backend functionality, and the part of the program that actually faces the user gets back-burnered until it can't be ignored any longer, then hastily slap-dashed into a basically feature-complete state.
The GIMP is an extreme example, but in my experience that kind of problem seems to be endemic to the Linux developer community - in an open development environment, programmers want to work on the stuff that interests programmers, and without some kind of additional driving force, they really have no interest in boring stuff like usability except in that it gets the program into a state where others can appreciate the cool backend stuff they put all the real work into.
My surprise at defending Linux on an Amiga forum? Perhaps I should have worded that as my surprise people are so pro-Windows on an Amiga forum. The reason I felt so at home in Linux was due to years of experience with the Amiga. Amiga (AmigaDOS?) to Linux (BASH) seemed a natural progression, certainly a lot more natural than Amiga to Windows.
Well, not all of us are fighting the same old grudge-match from decades ago. I like the Amiga because I find the Amiga to be neat, but I don't have the time or energy to be mad at Windows for beating it, especially when what actually killed it was managerial ineptitude and a few of the bigger scoundrels at Commodore poisoning the well.
Also, huh? AmigaDOS to me looks a lot more like MS-DOS with the design issues fixed than anything like a Unix shell...
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The GIMP is an extreme example, but in my experience that kind of problem seems to be epidemic among the Linux developer community - in an open development environment, programmers want to work on the stuff that interests programmers, and without some kind of additional driving force, they really have no interest in boring stuff like usability except in that it gets the program into a state where others can appreciate the cool backend stuff they put all the real work into.
This is very true. Creating a good program and creating a good user interface are two entirely different skill sets, just like writing a killer book and editing it to be readable is.
To sort of try and bring this back to our beloved amiga's, that's something that was very evident there too. With so much of the software people used being PD stuff, it wasn't uncommon to find some very rudimentary interfaces (or a command line only thing, which is garbage IMO).
For bigger programs (like openoffice or whatnot) it's usually not a big deal, since there's enough people working on it that someone will have the skill set required.
I guess I don't have much experience with GIMP specifically since Deluxe Paint is about as far as I ever made it in drawing tits on my computer. For photo editing I used some app that came with Kubuntu already, and worked decently for chopping down images. Couldn't tell you what it was called though.
edit: Let's not lose track of the fact that photoshop is 700 friggen dollars, if you don't get a discount. People never like to discuss this because /everyone/ I know that uses photoshop pirated that ****, but it's still a factor.
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Windows 8, right click iso & select mount.
So the OS that is only just now coming out has the ability you bitch about?
I still maintain that windows is ****, because it can't cook toast, so I'm going to buy a mac instead.
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Also, huh? AmigaDOS to me looks a lot more like MS-DOS with the design issues fixed than anything like a Unix shell...
I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos? I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.
Kcon and/or zshell are very unixy.
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I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos? I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.
I'd like to see that thread. Still, AmigaDOS tends strongly towards expanded, human-readable command names (copy instead of cp, format instead of mkfs, and so on - also, dir instead of ls, though both are abbreviations there,) has only limited pipe support, has no global directory-tree structure comparable to the Unix / hierarchy, instead addressing individual volumes by appending a colon to either the device name or (thankfully) the volume label, and so on.
Certainly it's not a perfect 1:1 correspondence, it looks more like an expanded RT-11 than either, and I have my suspicions that that's due to TripOS originating on the PDP-11. Still, it certainly looks a lot more like it takes after the side of the CLI family tree that Microsoft also inhabits.
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Had to fix that for you :razz:
I find it quite the opposite, actually. If this thread is any indication, the bitter ones are the ones who never got Linux to work.
No, it's the ones that succeeded that seem bitter. The rest of us and just gave in and ran windows.
I actually did get Linux to "work", it just doesn't support the hardware I have in my laptops. It's all a bit too unixy for me as well and I've been using unix for a very long time.
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I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos? I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.
Kcon and/or zshell are very unixy.
Actually it was Karlos who posted the old TripOS manual... And it's almost 1:1 with AmigaDOS :)
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I thought it was bloodline (or Karlos? I forget) who had a thread here showing a lot of the unix-y goodness in the amiga shell.
Kcon and/or zshell are very unixy.
So is Cygwin on windows. AmigaOS isn't very unixy.
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besides, everyone is going to end up with windows 8 anyways.
never.
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I'll never use 8. I'll use xp and 7 for anything I actually need windows for. If it comes with any pc I buy, I suppose I can downgrade or just hack it to get rid of the horrid parts. My bet is they separate that horrid metro interface in the next release, but we'll see.
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I'll never use 8. I'll use xp and 7 for anything I actually need windows for. If it comes with any pc I buy, I suppose I can downgrade or just hack it to get rid of the horrid parts. My bet is they separate that horrid metro interface in the next release, but we'll see.
With you on this one Steven. Metro is awful.
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I actually like metro better than that funk ball formerly know as "start." And I suspect a lot of the apps will come out in Metro so that they can take advantage of cross compilation for Windows RT on Surface like devices. Take a little time to play with Windows 8 with an open mind. I just wish there was someway to tuen off that legacy desktop....
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I may be looking back with nostalgia clouding my judgement but I'm sure the Amiga CLI was much more capable than DOS. I remember my first year in university, discovering Linux & Solaris and thinking "wow, it's like a multiuser Amiga" (my comparision being the power of the shell). It was certainly my familiarity with the Amiga CLI that gave me the confidence to dive into Linux. My other friends (all with DOS/Windows experience) seemed to fear csh/tcsh/bash.
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I may be looking back with nostalgia clouding my judgement but I'm sure the Amiga CLI was much more capable than DOS.
Oh, no question there. Even just the ability to specify disks by volume instead of physical drive number puts it leagues ahead. I'm just saying that in terms of lineage, it looks to have more in common with the RT-11 -> CP/M -> MS-DOS tree than the classic Unix shells.
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So is Cygwin on windows. AmigaOS isn't very unixy.
Cygwin :furious:
F*** Cygwin.
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I'll check in on Windows a few versions from now and see how Metro turns out. I have a feeling it will be a much better experience once the old desktop is axed.
Windows 8 will only interest me if it gets a really solid port of LCARS as a replacement GUI. It would work well with a touchscreen PC.
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Cygwin :furious:
F*** Cygwin.
Seriously. It's a bloat monster. If you need to do *nix work, much better to just run what you need in a VM. If you just need bash and some common tools, msys is a lot easier to deal with.
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Back on the topic of win 8, are there any reliable info on how long new versions of direct x will support win 7?
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I'll never use 8. I'll use xp and 7 for anything I actually need windows for. If it comes with any pc I buy, I suppose I can downgrade or just hack it to get rid of the horrid parts. My bet is they separate that horrid metro interface in the next release, but we'll see.
My bet is that you'll end up running it and you won't hack anything.
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My bet is Window 9 will drop that horrid legacy Window 7 desktop and make everything run in metro.
My bet is that you'll end up running it and you won't hack anything.
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My bet is Window 9 will drop that horrid legacy Window 7 desktop and make everything run in metro.
I'll bet you a $1 they drop the horrid Metro interface and go back to legacy Windows desktop look and feel.
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Oh, it's definitely less complicated than it used to be, but weird issues do still have a way of cropping up when you have as many possible hardware combinations (and as many potential software setups) as PCs do.
Amen to that - I'm crawling back under my stone until Valve find a fix for my screwed up textures in Portal 2 - Apparently it's something to do with Phenom processors and my "one off" Radeon card - One off???? PC World, Aria and Ebuyer have been selling the same MB, CPU, RAM & GC bundle for nearly 12 months now - One Off my ar$e !!!!! :)
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I have used 8 to test, and metro is fine if your on a tablet. On a desktop, its simply retarded.
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I'll bet you a $1 they drop the horrid Metro interface and go back to legacy Windows desktop look and feel.
Just $1??? Safe money that metro's time on desktops is shorter than an Atari ST user's at an Amiga convention......
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Just $1??? Safe money that metro's time on desktops is shorter than an Atari ST user's at an Amiga convention......
"hey guys, check it out, now we have a blitter too!"
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Back on the topic of win 8, are there any reliable info on how long new versions of direct x will support win 7?
This is what I'd like to know.
I think once MS realizes that 8 is a dead pigeon they'll start forcing people off Vista and 7 at bayonet point with DX.
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This is what I'd like to know.
I think once MS realizes that 8 is a dead pigeon they'll start forcing people off Vista and 7 at bayonet point with DX.
Does XP still get new versions or has that capped out?
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Does XP still get new versions or has that capped out?
I think they capped at 10.
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My bet is that you'll end up running it and you won't hack anything.
I'll bet you a dollar that it never touches a single one of my machines.
I'll bet you a $1 they drop the horrid Metro interface and go back to legacy Windows desktop look and feel.
Gonna have a hard time finding someone to take that bet, even for a dollar, my friend. It's a sure thing.
I think once MS realizes that 8 is a dead pigeon they'll start forcing people off Vista and 7 at bayonet point with DX.
A.k.a. "the DX10 gambit." The sad thing is that it's worked once before...
I think they capped at 10.
9, actually. 10 was the carrot to get people who wanted Bioshock to look as pretty as possible to switch to Vista.
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Metro is here to stay. Is what it is.
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I like how all the people that have no intentions of ever trying W8, or have never tried it yet - are completely and painfully oblivious to the fact you can run it in normal desktop mode if you like. You're free to dislike what you like, but Jesus - do some fact checking, lol.
I've got it on one of my machines now with nary a trace of "Metro" around at all. It's a heck of a lot snappier than W7 was on the machine as well, machine boots in under 10 seconds from cold boot (SSD's, obviously).
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I think they capped at 10.
XP? DX9 actually.
Vista, DX11.
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I'll bet you a dollar that it never touches a single one of my machines.
I'd give you a dollar for you to "cut off your nose to spite your face", it would be funny.
Gonna have a hard time finding someone to take that bet, even for a dollar, my friend. It's a sure thing.
It's a sure thing alright, he'll be losing that dollar. Windows 9 might be different to Windows 8 in those areas, but it's not going to go back to how it was before.
A.k.a. "the DX10 gambit." The sad thing is that it's worked once before...
9, actually. 10 was the carrot to get people who wanted Bioshock to look as pretty as possible to switch to Vista.
New DirectX features require new graphics card drivers & Vista has a new graphics card driver model, to support new stuff. Justifying a whole new round of driver development, testing and certification for an old operating system is difficult.
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Not even Windows 3.1 was this inexpensive!
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/07/02/upgrade-to-windows-8-pro-for-39-99.aspx
I wonder how it'll sell. I think the low price will make it move.
For $40, what the heck, even if I'm not sure I'll use it. Though my first attempt to install (in a virtual machine using VirtualBox), it failed and rolled back to Win7. Eh...
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A.k.a. "the DX10 gambit." The sad thing is that it's worked once before...
9, actually. 10 was the carrot to get people who wanted Bioshock to look as pretty as possible to switch to Vista.
I hacked 10 onto XP while that option was still available for the faint-at-heart; of course I also had hacked SLI drivers running (nVidia bought the Epox technology and ****canned it). You just had to write the mobo ID where the latest Nvidia drivers looked (they looked at the registry for the motherboard ID, not directly at the BIOS)...hee hee, it was a terrible kludge but amazingly it was rock solid most of the time. Every once in a while (and ironically, every time this happened I wasn't gaming) the system would unload it's own video drivers and I'd have to spend a while convincing the computer I actually had cards that were more than "Standard VGA Adapter(s)", but that was extremely rare.
Then I got an Asus board and nVidia quit being dicks anyway about SLI, but I still sold the board with a CD with the hacked DX10 driver and hacked SLI driver...
Sorry, I do go on.
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Well, I downloaded Win8 from MSDN, can't say I'm a fan. I could get used to the tiley interface, and it does run at least as quickly as 7 did, but I don't enjoy the two or three unhappy face ":(" errors (think sad Mac) and reboots I've received in the week or so I've had it installed. Guess I'll have to go back to 7, or stick to Fedora until SP1.
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I wouldn't be surprised if MS chooses not to issue any service packs for Windows 8.
It's a rather arbitrary way of bundling updates, and not exactly elegant.
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I wouldn't be surprised if MS chooses not to issue any service packs for Windows 8.
It's a rather arbitrary way of bundling updates, and not exactly elegant.
I guess it makes it easier to identify what exactly your system looks like, so there's that.
I guess every method of patching/updating has drawbacks though.
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I also had hacked SLI drivers running (nVidia bought the Epox technology and ****canned it). You just had to write the mobo ID where the latest Nvidia drivers looked (they looked at the registry for the motherboard ID, not directly at the BIOS)...hee hee, it was a terrible kludge but amazingly it was rock solid most of the time. Every once in a while (and ironically, every time this happened I wasn't gaming) the system would unload it's own video drivers and I'd have to spend a while convincing the computer I actually had cards that were more than "Standard VGA Adapter(s)", but that was extremely rare.
Not Epox (that's a board manufacturer). ULi, they made the chipsets you're thinking of.
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Upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $39.99!
For people who can afford the luxury of a $4.00 keyboard and $4.00 mouse, wouldn't Windows 8 be a downgrade from Windows 7?
Is there anything in Windows 8 that was actually upgraded from Windows 7 for regular people who have a mouse and keyboard on a regular computer with a regular 61 inch monitor?
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The memory handling of DLLs is shared like the AmigaOS shared libraries. But other than that, the upgrade is overpriced. It should have been a service pack for Win7 instead.
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Am i the only person that actually think metro is an improvement over that silly start meny. i bought 2 versions of win 8 and so far i am very happy.
Its very fast on my old Panasonic toughbook with touchscreen .
Metro has a learning curve once you know it well you can use it quite efficiently .
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Am i the only person that actually think metro is an improvement over that silly start menu.[sic]
Probably, although I think the toolbars used on the Amiga are pretty good. Or at least the ones on OS 4, AROS and MorphOS. 3.9's toolbar is pretty sad.
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Just some quick facts for anyone who want to buy W8 cheep and do not have Windows 7.
If you install a pirated version of Windows 7 that uses SLIC injection to pass WGA checks you can download and run the "Windows 8 Pro Upgrade Assistant" and buy the upgrade license for 39.99$, then burn the ISO and bam you got a full version of W8 without owning Windows 7.
I do not use Windows 8 but if anyone want Windows 8 cheep this is the way to go.
You can even get Windows 8 for 15$, just go to the upgrade site for people who bough a W7 computer the past 2 months https://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/ enter bogus purchase dates within 2 months and you get the 15$ code.
So W8 for 15$ from pirated Windows 7 is cheep, I have done this just to test if it works and it does.
First time ever I payed for any M$ software, but had to to see if this worked.
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Am i the only person that actually think metro is an improvement over that silly start meny. i bought 2 versions of win 8 and so far i am very happy.
Its very fast on my old Panasonic toughbook with touchscreen .
Metro has a learning curve once you know it well you can use it quite efficiently .
Yes, you are the only person in the world that likes it.
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Works like a charm by faking recent W7 computer purchase and pirated w7.
W8 for 139 SEK = 20.58$ so fair price, even if I won't use it.
I will install it on a virtual machine just to try the full version out.
(http://www.underground-gamer.com/imagebucket/W8.jpeg)
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"We love windows, but not enough to pay for it" ;0
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"We love windows, but not enough to pay for it" ;0
I payed 20$ without need for it :P
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Will this method allow you to do a clean install?
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Will this method allow you to do a clean install?
Yepp, you get a product key and a ISO, burn the ISO (or use a flash-drive) and you can do a clean install, I tried on a unused PC and worked without problems on blank drive.
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So what did you enter as your pc model etc. on the form?
Was it just made up, or did you find some actual make and model that comes with windows 7?
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So what did you enter as your pc model etc. on the form?
Was it just made up, or did you find some actual make and model that comes with windows 7?
I did pick "Other" and wrote a real online PC hardware store wrote my real name/address/mail etc. I did pick other to avoid OS branding (don't know if W8 does that but I did not want to risk it).
At model I just wrote 2600K as that is my main PC Workstations CPU, I think you can write anything tho
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I'm seriously thinking about doing this, but I want to make sure I can get 64bit home premium.
I currently have Vista 32bit installed, and I'd rather not go through the hassle of pirating/installing 7 at all.
Is it actually necessary at any stage to be running 7?
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Yes, you are the only person in the world that likes it.
@adonay
Yes, seconded, you are the only one that likes this interface.
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So I just bought it from my vista machine and got the discount with no issue.
I'm not really looking forward to wrestling with the new interface, but for ~$17CDN, I won't complain.
I figure I may as well dive in and learn what I can before my relatives start calling me for Windows 8 support, which they inevitably will.
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So I just bought it from my vista machine and got the discount with no issue.
I'm not really looking forward to wrestling with the new interface, but for ~$17CDN, I won't complain.
I figure I may as well dive in and learn what I can before my relatives start calling me for Windows 8 support, which they inevitably will.
In my opinion W8 is not usable without "classic shell"
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
(http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/images/screenshot.png)
So if you decide you want to use W8 I suggest you install classic shell, for me it was utter crap without it.
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Cool. I was hoping something like that would be ready by the time I bought it anyway.
One sad thing about the way I did it is that the upgrade assistant checks the 'bits' of the host OS rather than the capabilities of the CPU when determining which installer to download, so I just spent the last hour downloading the 32 bit version.
I'm going to have to get a copy of the x64 install disk through other means and hope my product key works with it.
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Cool. I was hoping something like that would be ready by the time I bought it anyway.
One sad thing about the way I did it is that the upgrade assistant checks the 'bits' of the host OS rather than the capabilities of the CPU when determining which installer to download, so I just spent the last hour downloading the 32 bit version.
I'm going to have to get a copy of the x64 install disk through other means and hope my product key works with it.
Ow that is a bummer, are you sure the iso do not contain both 32 and 64bit installation?
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I'm assuming that they're two separate images since the retail package contains two separate DVDs, and I've read a few articles that claim that to be the case.
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I'm assuming that they're two separate images since the retail package contains two separate DVDs, and I've read a few articles that claim that to be the case.
Ok to bad, write here and tell us if the key you got works for the 64 bit version when you got it :)
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No offence this is an Amiga site?The last time I looked.:rant: Who cares about windows? and making Microsoft richer.
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No offence this is an Amiga site?The last time I looked.:rant: Who cares about windows? and making Microsoft richer.
Well this is the non-Amiga-related OS section of the forums.
Last time i checked there is plenty of Amiga related topics so no worries we are still talking Amiga related stuff and plenty of it.
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I had to put off my install until I got done work this evening because it took all night to torrent the 64bit install ISO, but I'm pleased to say that it worked without a hitch.
Even though it's an upgrade, I'm pretty sure the product key is from the same pool as the rest of the retail keys. I did a clean install on my second hard drive so that I can dual boot with my old Vista install.
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I did a clean install on my second hard drive so that I can dual boot with my old Vista install.
Why? I have a copy of Vista I've retired.
Tired of it crashing.
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One of the things that I notice with Windows 8 is that while the Windows 8 interface works fine with a mouse, a lot of the Windows 8 style apps feel clunky with a mouse. They are better with a touchpad and a huge portion of Windows users still use mice.
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I had to put off my install until I got done work this evening because it took all night to torrent the 64bit install ISO, but I'm pleased to say that it worked without a hitch.
Even though it's an upgrade, I'm pretty sure the product key is from the same pool as the rest of the retail keys. I did a clean install on my second hard drive so that I can dual boot with my old Vista install.
I agree, I think they keys come from the same pool to, my key worked to fresh install on any system I tried it on.
Why? I have a copy of Vista I've retired.
Tired of it crashing.
Agree
One of the things that I notice with Windows 8 is that while the Windows 8 interface works fine with a mouse, a lot of the Windows 8 style apps feel clunky with a mouse. They are better with a touchpad and a huge portion of Windows users still use mice.
I think it's even better with touchscreen, tho when I tried W8 I do not use the modern GUI (Metro) at all and classic shell restores a start menu, without that I could not use it productive enough.
Also a tip is right clicking/properties on video/image files etc and set them to not open in Modern GUI/Metro.
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Why? I have a copy of Vista I've retired.
Tired of it crashing.
I have it set up exactly the way I want, it's on a separate hard drive, and it has never crashed in all the years since I've been using it.
I'm not retiring it until I have Windows 8 fine-tuned the way I want with all of my software set up and working.
I also have about 30GB of stuff downloading via bittorrent that I don't feel like aborting.
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...it has never crashed in all the years since I've been using it.
You're a better man then me.
I've installed it several times (most recently only a couple months ago) and even with all current updates...boom!
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I honestly haven't had many problems with Vista (aside from bone-headed design decisions and questionable performance) since the first service pack. It probably helps that I've disabled a lot of unnecessary services.
I also seem to have really good luck with bad operating systems. Windows ME ran great for me for many years as well.
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@kedawa: yes disabling unnecessary services is the way to get vista performing well. Its proven to be stable, fast and better looking than Win7 for me.
Specifically MS didn't tell anyone about the indexing service's hard drive usage on a new system as it built up the index of all the crapware thats usually installed and made it run like a dog.
BTW in Aus its Win 8 is $69.95 for the DVD, but with the "trick" I ordered it for $40.
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I just wish I could turn off the legacy desktop in Windows 8, it just looks so 20th Century....
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They really should have forked the OS, with one version having only Metro UI (Windows Media Consumption Edition), and the other having the classic desktop (Windows Functional Edition).
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They really should have forked the OS, with one version having only Metro UI (Windows Media Consumption Edition), and the other having the classic desktop (Windows Functional Edition).
Great idea!
Personally Metro is going to keep me away from this one.
I'm now down to two netbooks for Windows.
Everything else, two desktops and a notebook are OSX or MorphOS.
Haven't bothered to put the Hackintosh together, even though I've got the hardware and copies of Snow leopard, Win7, and Parallels.
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The Metro name was a code name during development. The UI doesn't have a real name other than Windows 8.
Calling Windows 8 Metro is akin to calling Windows 7 Vienna or calling Windows XP Whistler...
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The Metro name was a code name during development. The UI doesn't have a real name other than Windows 8.
Calling Windows 8 Metro is akin to calling Windows 7 Vienna or calling Windows XP Whistler...
Right you are, that's clearly a very crucial distinction. I suggest that, in the future, we refer to the Officially Nameless Windows 8 Interface as "AOL Circa 1996."
(http://imageshack.us/a/img818/8343/aol1996vsmicrosoftwindo.jpg)
You were right, that sleek new look is much less (ugh!) twentieth-century than the Win95 UI. By a whole year.
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The Metro name was a code name during development. The UI doesn't have a real name other than Windows 8.
Calling Windows 8 Metro is akin to calling Windows 7 Vienna or calling Windows XP Whistler...
Actually, Metro was the official name of the UI until MS got sued.
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Actually, Metro was the official name of the UI until MS got sued.
Yepp it was. So ill keep calling it Metro UI.
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Microsoft always uses code names, the last four versions of Windows were Whistler, Longhorn, Vienna and Metro, none of them ever were official names of anything. None of them were used after the commercial release of the OS.
Actually Commodore did the same thing, the A500 was referred to as Rock Lobster....
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Microsoft always uses code names, the last four versions of Windows were Whistler, Longhorn, Vienna and Metro, none of them ever were official names of anything. None of them were used after the commercial release of the OS.
Actually Commodore did the same thing, the A500 was referred to as Rock Lobster....
In August of 2012, rumors began circulating that one of Microsoft's retail partners, German company Metro AG, had threatened legal action against the software giant for infringing on the "Metro" trademark. A memo was sent out to developers and Microsoft employees to stop using the term "Metro" until a replacement term is established or the legal case is settled.[21] Microsoft is temporarily referring to the design language as Modern UI.[22] On August 9, 2012, it emerged that Microsoft was planning to use the term "Windows 8" to replace Metro in consumer marketing materials. The "Modern UI" term appears to be intended for developers who plan to build software based on Redmond's new design principles
Metro is the style, now due to above reasons it's called Modern UI for devs.
So Modern UI or Metro who cares? Let people say metro for the UI if they want.
So metro was NOT the codename of the entire OS as longhorn etc where for others, it was indeed what the new UI was called until quite recently.
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And there you have it the UI and OS are Windows 8, that's what they are called, plain and simple. Microsoft probably could have worked out a deal with Metro AG had they wanted, but it simply wasn't worth it for a codename, so they dropped it.
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And there you have it the UI and OS are Windows 8, that's what they are called, plain and simple. Microsoft probably could have worked out a deal with Metro AG had they wanted, but it simply wasn't worth it for a codename, so they dropped it.
First off, no one said that the entire os was called metro.
The new UI was called Metro but changed name to modern UI.
So if people say they disslike Metro they are ofc talking about Modern UI as it was called Metro UI.
So let people say they disslike Metro UI since it's semi right and everyone know what they are talking about when saying it.
Of cource the new UI is a part of Windows 8 but the UI alone is NOT Windows 8 since the entire OS and it's components are Windows 8.
I do not understand why you argue about this?
Tell me then what should people call the new UI part that is not the desktop?
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Ufff... Microsoft sofware makes me feel sick.
It's been seven years since I last had a Windows computer, and I will NEVER go back to that world of bloat, virusses, malware, registry nightmares, slowness, fragmentation and uglyness.
Linux covers my daily needs: it runs on my Pandaboard ES silent fanless computer wich boots in seconds with it's TI kernel. It's free, fast, light and secure. If I'd still be using Windows **** after all those years I'd feel pretty idiotic.
Other OSes I use are Amiga OS (on minimg, fpga-arcade) and Risc OS (on the Pandaboard ES, too).
WHY on earth would anybody use Microsft Windows these days? No, seriously: Lubuntu is SO easy that even my parents use it every day and I didn't have to teach them a single thing! Using M$ **** is nonsense.
The only Micro-**** software I run is...well, MSX-DOS on my Altera DE1 home-made MSX2+ computer :D
And it'll remain like that.
If I only had M$ Windows to choose from, I'm sure I'd leave computers for good.
Someone here clearly thinks API/ABI alzheimers and dependency hell is ALL THAT...
I personally don't give a damn about OSs anymore because they all are designed according to a vision within which there are no users, but prisoners (and I'm not referring to security). I happen to run Windows because it accompanies the damn PC I buy and because it's less of a discomfort than anything else "usable" !
EDIT:
And, I'm not planning to use W8, for apparent reasons.
EDIT 2:
(replaced "schizophrenia" by "alzheimers")
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So, you know how I was saying that Windows 8 was going to make Vista look like a success? Well, gosh golly, check this out: Windows 8 adoption rates are trailing at about 55% of Vista adoption rates, month-for-month. (http://www.zdnet.com/five-reasons-why-windows-8-has-failed-7000012104/)
Oh, and you know that whole tablet market that this was a last-ditch attempt to break into long after iOS and Android had firmly established themselves as the only games in town? Yeah, that's not working out so hot. (http://blogs.computerworld.com/tablets/22048/windows-tablets-dont-even-rate-blip-64-billion-tablet-market-say-report)
Bravo, Microsoft, you are truly visionaries.
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Bravo, Microsoft, you are truly visionaries.
They were, they had tablet products before apple were cool. Their execution hasn't really worked out, but they tried.
I'm still running Windows 8 on my 4 year old laptop and it's running better than 7/vista/xp.
I don't miss the start menu at all & never use metro.
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Well good for you. You're that much more future-ey than the ignorant masses for using the newest version-of-Windows-nobody-wanted.
And yes, they did have tablets before Apple did, and nobody wanted them then, either. Perhaps somewhere in the years and years of failing to make this work, they should have taken a lesson from their years and years of failing to make this work.
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I'm glad to hear how many of you like this.
But I still don't want it.
I've stopped at Win7 and use MorphOS more then anything else.
Pretty soon, I really won't have much use for Windows other then Netflix.
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One word "no" BTW persia you have flies on you screen you crazy aussie.
From one crazy aussie to another :laugh1:
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Wow. I'm really sorry to hear people have such a difficult time with Linux. Mounting an ISO image has been a simple task for a very long time and it certainly was not broken in Ubuntu 9.10. It sounds much more likely the ISO was corrupt, or in fact not an ISO at all (perhaps a zipped ISO without the .zip extension?). Regardless, I'm sad to hear it was a world of frustration for people.
Regarding the comments on Gimp - I don't understand any of the criticisms. I wasn't a Photoshop user, instead I migrated from Degas Elite (Atari ST), to Deluxe Paint (Amiga), to Paint Shop Pro (Windows) to Gimp (Linux). The path wasn't at all painful and I can still switch between Gimp and PSP with very little frustration (basic tools, layer windows etc are all very alike). Are you sure it's not Photoshop which breaks the convention? I've heard people say Photoshop has a learning curve and can be difficult to get started with - I have no personal experience here.
My surprise at defending Linux on an Amiga forum? Perhaps I should have worded that as my surprise people are so pro-Windows on an Amiga forum. The reason I felt so at home in Linux was due to years of experience with the Amiga. Amiga (AmigaDOS?) to Linux (BASH) seemed a natural progression, certainly a lot more natural than Amiga to Windows.
If anyone needs any Linux support please feel free to poke me.
+1
In ~20 years of using UNIX/Linux both personally and professionally I've never had any problems to speak of. It does exactly what I tell it to do and nothing more.
Windows on the other hand........
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In ~20 years of using UNIX/Linux both personally and professionally I've never had any problems to speak of. It does exactly what I tell it to do and nothing more.
That's really great for you, but it doesn't mean a thing to those of us who have had issues with it.
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I am quite happy to hear Windows tablets are failing miserably. I normally wouldn't care too much about this as the market will sort itself out and I don't have to buy one, but in this case I can personally feel MS throwing their weight around with money headed towards developers in a way that affects me personally. And then there is all the relentless sickening advertising.
For example, my local TV station also has a site for streaming all the content. They've had an iOS app for years so you can watch on your iOS device. No surprise there given the market share. I always hoped for an Android version as I'm an Android user. The day Windows tablets rolled out, lo and behold there was a Windows tablet version of the app (that all 0% of their users could enjoy), and there's lots of advertising on the site about it. I'm sure MS sent a heap of money to the TV station - and I don't even have a big problem with that, but I have a feeling that probably came with the catch of telling the TV station they would be less than pleased if the leading market share device, Android, had an app made available.
Then when I do watch the shows, I'm treated to Sherlock Holmes staring at a "Windows Start" or "Skype" screen for 10 seconds with a dumbfounded look. It's so idiotic it makes the shows ridiculous. And then all the streamed commercials are about Microsoft. For me, it just makes me not be able to stand it all, I'd never buy an MS product that spends so much time annoying me.
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That's really great for you, but it doesn't mean a thing to those of us who have had issues with it.
I don't know how to drive a motor vehicle either, that doesn't mean my push bike is a superior method of transport.
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You're that much more future-ey than the ignorant masses for using the newest version-of-Windows-nobody-wanted.
It's not future-ey, the ignorant masses have been told to hate Windows 8 so hate it they will. OTOH they have been told to love Apple stuff.
People make up their mind first and then alter their perception to match. You don't even know that you're doing it.
Windows is not the only operating system, but it's the only one that I can be bothered to run these days & I like installing new things.
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That's really great for you, but it doesn't mean a thing to those of us who have had issues with it.
Easy fellas! We done been down this road before :lol:
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Easy fellas! We done been down this road before :lol:
Heheh :)
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Been using Win 8 since it launched.
Got rid of all the Metro/Modern UI crap. Boots into desktop by default, much faster than W7 did. Functions as well as W7, with the extra perks W8 brought on the desktop side. W7 was stable, but W8 is bulletproof thus far for me. I do not see the Metro/Modern GUI at all at any time on this machine. It is not rocket science to get rid of the Tiles.
Would I recommend you buy an OEM version of W8 to replace W7 on your current PC? No. She's still heavy on cramming the tiles experience down your neck by default, and unless you are willing to get rid of that on your own time you will find the mix and match Desktop and Tiles experience jarring. It's not for everyone. Either is stinky blue cheese, but I'm not picketing cheese shops - I simply don't eat blue cheese :)
I know it is common sport around here to riff on MS, but can't help but feel the vast majority of people slagging the product off are the same guys that used to slag off MS-DOS when the Amiga came about and we tried to do the "mouse envy" superiority act on the pee cee guys. Reminds me of the old platform pissing matches we had in the day, when we actually had a foothold as Amigans. We don't have that foothold anymore.
It was dumb then, and it's dumb now. Use what you like, but for God's sakes - don't comment about things you haven't even tried. Worse yet, don't buy into Press Mentality. Find it odd here that the ones screaming the loudest are the types still denouncing Tablets, like they are a flash in the pan. Just because you don't see value in them, doesn't change reality.
Throwing on an Amiga shirt and spitting at old Apple and MS flags doesn't change reality. Love Amiga for what is it - a real fun hobby alternative.
I'd be happy to sit here and tell you everything I hate about Windows 8, and why I don't recommend you buy it at any price unless you know what you are doing. I'd also be happy to sit here and tell you how, now that I have it tweaked, how I am very happy with it.
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a) if you have an intel graphics chip then set then save the following in a .reg file and execute it
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0000]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0001]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\{511F09E3-0635-4B11-B689-B08C00A0DF4E}\0000]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\{511F09E3-0635-4B11-B689-B08C00A0DF4E}\0001]
"Display1_DownScalingSupported"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Intel\Display\igfxcui\igfxtray]
"ShowOptimalBalloon"=dword:00000000
Then you should be able to set the resolution to 1024x768
you won't be able to set the resolution to anything lower than 1024x768 with the standard resolution setting, so you'll need some way of switching back to your native res. Mine is an ASUS and there is software for switching the res using the keyboard which works fine.
It's very likely that you'll give up on metro and stick with your native res.
b) I never have anything suspend when closing the lid. Even on windows 7 I have problems suspending, plus I often leave things running and close the lid to protect it while carrying or shoving it under the sofa. I always have it set up as:
close lid: do nothing
power button: shutdown
sleep button: hibernate
Hah ... i guess you still have to do all that registry **** even on the latest version of windows. Count me out - ill stick with my Linux boxes thanks!