man, the C64 had all the cool shoot em ups

[fishy_fiz]

Why do you blame the VIC-II. Any particular reason, or are you just saying it for fun ? What aspect of the VIC-II do you blame for this ?  Additionally I wonder if you actually know anything about it other than the name ? As it is it sounds like you're deliberately trying to provoke responses from people. If that's something you enjoy then good luck to you.
As for the CPU, a 7.16 mhz HuC6280A is far from the same thing as a 6502. Sure they share some herritage, but so does a 80286 and an i7.

[Arkhan]

Why do you blame the VIC-II. Any particular reason, or are you just saying it for fun ? What aspect of the VIC-II do you blame for this ? Additionally I wonder if you actually know anything about it other than the name ? As it is it sounds like you're deliberately trying to provoke responses from people. If that's something you enjoy then good luck to you.
As for the CPU, a 7.16 mhz HuC6280A is far from the same thing as a 6502. Sure they share some herritage, but so does a 80286 and an i7.

The VIC-|| palette is ugly in general.  Its drab, and all the shooters lose their vibrance and get very muddy.    R Type looked terrible compared to the arcade one, and compared to other home versions.
 
The resolution makes the games look chunky.  It just looks gooney in comparison to the arcade one.  Look at Sidearms, Nemesis, and even Saint Dragon.  Muddy.  Alot more crisp/vibrant on other computers... even if there was blocky scrolling (which is frivolous imho).  Sidearms is just a travesty in general.  both audio/video wise.
 
The 6280 is a 6502 derivative with the only real differences being the speed increase (With the option to flip back to the slow-as-balls mode), and onboard PSG.  They use the same irritating 6502 assembly, and are way more similar than you seem to think.  The real gain the PCE has over the C64 is much better tile/sprite hardware.  But it has no other screen modes, so you can't do alot of the neat tricks the VIC *did* have access to, despite having ugly colors.
 
 
I program for both machines.   Its not like im just flailing around and making stuff up.

[Khephren]

well, when everyone else is playing their C64's in 1982, you can wait till 1989 for your PCengine USA launch. Good luck with that.

[Arkhan]

well, when everyone else is playing their C64's in 1982, you can wait till 1989 for your PCengine USA launch. Good luck with that.

You mean Turbo Grafx-16 in USA.
 
and its all history, meaning it all happened already....so...... theres no waiting.
 
also, might want to pony up on your wikipedia skills or something.  Most of the good shooters didn't come out until the PCE was either out, or about to be out, and by then the NES, SMS, and MSX has tons of shooters too.   Star Soldier, Gall Force, Star Force, Starship Hector, a bunch of other stuff not-released-on-c64 that was completely awesome, and then the same stuff as the C64....so.... yeah
 
Were comparing shooters.   The C64 did not do shooters as well as alot of people think.  Especially when you have one frigging button.
 
plus i think bitd i would rather shove quarters in an arcade machine than play the home versions on the c64, if having one of the other machines wasnt an option.

[Khephren]

"Sure it is. It was only 3 years later, and uses a 6502 based CPU just the same."

your specificaly comparing architectures that are 7 years apart in date (you might as well say, hey why play doom? just wait and play unreal tournament!).

Seeing as your a coder, you should know what a massive gap that is, you should also know better than to come into other peoples threads with your fists swinging.

[Arkhan]

"Sure it is. It was only 3 years later, and uses a 6502 based CPU just the same."
 
your specificaly comparing architectures that are 7 years apart in date (you might as well say, hey why play doom? just wait and play unreal tournament!).

3-4ish years of difference.  Oh no.  The difference between the current argument, and your new example is 1) Yours is predicting the future 2) DOOM wasnt trying to bring arcade games home in a poorly done fashion.
 
Its not even just the shooters.  Wanna play Double Dragon on c64? I sure dont.
 

Seeing as your a coder, you should know what a massive gap that is, you should also know better than to come into other peoples threads with your fists swinging.

you mean with a different opinion that at least has reasons why, that aren't really too unacceptable.  Sorry I don't drop my pants and pleasure myself to all things C= as if theyre the only true way of life.
 
and no, the two processors arent that super duper different.  The video chip difference is what really makes or breaks things, not the CPU.

[save2600]

plus i think bitd i would rather shove quarters in an arcade machine than play the home versions on the c64, if having one of the other machines wasnt an option.

Which is one of the reasons arcades were more popular then. People just didn't have or want to devote their disposable income to gaming computers or computer gaming. And there was a much wider gap between arcade games and their home playable "counterparts".

Long live the real arcade experience!  :lol:

[A4000_Mad]

Hey! This is not C64.org.

I thought it was Speccy.org


.

[fishy_fiz]

You keep mentioning conversions, but that's far from a benchmark for what a machine capable of, especially in the early 80's. Much like the Amiga games designed for the machine show what it's capable of more often than badly coded conversions. Gimme Katakis, iO, Armalyte, Citadel, Cybernoid, and a bunch of others over the arcade conversions anyday. Also, just because conversions are poor doesnt mean the machine isnt up to the task (hmm,... this is familiar). Unlike some of the systems you've mentioned developers of c64 ports seldom received the same sort of help that was given to big name Asian compaines. Even if it's not (up to a particular task) so freaking what ?

End of the day the c64 had some great shooters, regardless of what other machines did better/worse.

[Arkhan]

You keep mentioning conversions, but that's far from a benchmark for what a machine capable of, especially in the early 80's. Much like the Amiga games designed for the machine show what it's capable of more often than badly coded conversions. Gimme Katakis, iO, Armalyte, Citadel, Cybernoid, and a bunch of others over the arcade conversions anyday. Also, just because conversions are poor doesnt mean the machine isnt up to the task (hmm,... this is familiar). Unlike some of the systems you've mentioned developers of c64 ports seldom received the same sort of help that was given to big name Asian compaines. Even if it's not (up to a particular task) so freaking what ?
 
End of the day the c64 had some great shooters, regardless of what other machines did better/worse.

 
were talking about shooters.  That includes them all.  including the shoddy conversions.  I wasnt the only one who mentioned them so dont go acting like I went and did the unthinkable or some shit.
 
if the conversions blow, thats not good.  The games that defined the genre blow on the c64, and you dont see it as a problem because Katakis and Armalyte are around? euhhh.   I don't think like 5 ok shooters make up for all the conversions sucking.
 
whats next, Lions of the Universe is the holy (hahah) grail of c64 shooters?

[Khephren]

Lets try this again, 1982....1989. I'm not the one who needs to pony up on Wikipedia Arkhan.

'waana play double dragon' -couple years wait for PCE after that came out.

'two processors arent that super duper different' other than one being 7 times faster than the other, you mean? been coding long dude?
 
as for dropping your pants, I know you only lube up for X68000.

[Arkhan]

Lets try this again, 1982....1989. I'm not the one who needs to pony up on Wikipedia Arkhan.
 
'waana play double dragon' -couple years wait for PCE after that came out.
 
'two processors arent that super duper different' other than one being 7 times faster than the other, you mean? been coding long dude?
 
as for dropping your pants, I know you only lube up for X68000.

1) REMOVED the PCE came out in 87, but was developed in 86
 
2) 6-2 = 4.
 
3) Double Dragon was never released on the PCE.
 
4) Yeah I've been coding long. You can toggle the PCE down to a standard 6502 speed, and whats funny is in many instances it doesn't impact things. Sometimes doing so even makes memory transfer faster.
 
The mhz aren't really the big factor. Its the video hardware. Thats what makes it do so much better. From a coding standpoint, theres not much difference at all. You still have the same annoyances and optimizations to worry about despite having 6 more mhz of power.
 
The MSX2 pulls off better shooters than the c64, using a plain z80 which is slower than the PCE too. The video chip is the key. See how that works?
 
5) You don't know much apparently then. I dont like x68000's much.
 
 
Did you have two scoops of fail for breakfast or what.

[motrucker]

Raid on Bungeling Bay? Wasn't it Beachhead that had such great sound effects?

[Khephren]

1) You were living in Japan then Arkhan, at the time of release? Or did you have to wait till '89 like everyone else?

4) If you think processor speed is not important, then there is only one 'dumbass' here, and I don't think it's me (on this occassion).

Yes I see how that works, iv'e been in videogame dev for 14 years, so I do have some small inkling.

Anyway, you want to continue your videogame discussion further, then PM me. I think we've highjacked this thread enough.

[fishy_fiz]

were talking about shooters.  That includes them all.  including the shoddy conversions.  I wasnt the only one who mentioned them so dont go acting like I went and did the unthinkable or some shit.
 
if the conversions blow, thats not good.  The games that defined the genre blow on the c64, and you dont see it as a problem because Katakis and Armalyte are around? euhhh.   I don't think like 5 ok shooters make up for all the conversions sucking.
 
whats next, Lions of the Universe is the holy (hahah) grail of c64 shooters?

I never said (or even implied) there was anything wrong with pointing out that a lot of c64 shooter conversions werent good, heck, even I did it, merely that it's not the way to judge a genre on a particular system, as most of your posts have alluded to (you even bought up double dragon for Pete's sake).
Just a thought but maybe you should stop clutching at straws here trying to dismiss c64 shooters. By now you're just embarassing yourself. Everyone else seems to see it, but you continue to argue for the sake of arguing. Let it go dude, it's more than obvious most dont agree with you. To each his own.

[Khephren]

I think maybe the thread title got him blowing steam 'man, the C64 had all the cool shoot em ups'
I took it to mean....the c64 got the good shooters, the Amiga, not so much (seeing as this is Amiga.org)

I think Arkhan took it as...compared to every other 8bit....ever.