Why they are not producing new a1200 compatible motherboard?

[zombi]

I was sufing in amigakit and when i am looking at A600 clockport adapter from indivudial computers. Suddenly this question came into my mind.

I wonder, why they are not producing new a600/a1200 compatible motherboard? I mean to add more reliable ide, usb devices, ps/2 keyboard/mouse, pc monitor etc. one shuld buy too much hardware.

Especially for A600 most of these add-ons are to be located on top of the cpu or another custom chip. After heavy  modification your miggy becomes a weird pile of pcb's.

So why not a hardware manufacturer comes with a replacement mobo. A motherbord with PCI, ps/2, usb, scandoubler etc. already built-in. Just with empty slots for custom chips and cpu and rom. This would be cheaper and tidy.  

[amiga_3k]

There are loads of reasons why this ain't happening. To sum up a few:

1) The Amiga custom chips are hard (impossible) to find new.
2) Serious R&D has to be done to create such a machine.
3) Expected quantities to be sold are to small to justify R&D.
4) A1200s are available in rather big quantities (used), these can be expanded rather easy with PCI expansion-boards.

Personnaly I'd like to see Samantha being produced. As it has room for an FPGA I guess it should be not too dificult to have the classic Amiga part being stuffed into that FPGA (like Dennis is doing with MiniMig) allowing classic Amiga software to run on 'modern' Amiga hardware, creating a nice bridge between Kick 1.x .. Kick 3.x and OS4.

[zombi]

1) The Amiga custom chips are hard (impossible) to find new.

But you can remove your custom chips from original motherboard and install them to new one.

2) Serious R&D has to be done to create such a machine.

Yes I know. But when I look amigakit adapter/interfaces (there are 48 items) I am just asking for a combination of most populer ones. This might be done.

3) Expected quantities to be sold are to small to justify R&D.

Again if R&D costs can be met for those add-ons, it should also be met for the combination.

4) A1200s are available in rather big quantities (used), these can be expanded rather easy with PCI expansion-boards.

Yes I know but when I look to the prices:

4-Device Buffered IDE Interface:  €17.69
COCOLINO PS/2 MOUSE ADAPTER:      €38.34
Lyra Keyboard Interface (A1200):  €35.39
Indivision Scandoubler/F. Fixer:  €162.27
ATX to AT Adapter (D-BOX 1200):   €25.07
Mediator PCI 1200 LT4 busboard:   €88.50

Total price: €367.26
And the result will be a one ugly computer with lots of cards and cables sitting at top of each other.
                         

[alexh]

zombi wrote:
But you can remove your custom chips from original motherboard and install them to new one.

They are all surface mount. Like YOU will be able to remove and fit them on a new board, let alone other people Not feasible if you ask me.

Again if R&D costs can be met for those add-ons, it should also be met for the combination.

You're joking right? The R&D costs are no-where near that of a full motherboard. PLUS they are made specifically appeal to the MAJORITY of Amiga users not just one version and so are more likely to sell in higher numbers than an A1200 replacement motherboard.

Yes I know but when I look to the prices:

1) These are AMIGA KIT prices i.e. very high
2) You dont need most of these!

Lyra Keyboard Interface (A1200):  €35.39

This converts an empty A1200 case into a PC keyboard. You really want one of these?

COCOLINO PS/2 MOUSE ADAPTER:      €38.34

You can get similar adapters for as little as €5. Or make your own for even less

ATX to AT Adapter (D-BOX 1200):   €25.07

Damn if that isnt pricey! Look around, these can be bought for less than €3

[amigakit]

Let me know where we can get Cocolino's (or similar) for 5 EURs and we will buy them in ;-)

Similarly the D-BOX AT to ATX converters feature a PCB as well as adapter cables - these are proprietry to the Amiga.

[alexh]

Let me know where we can get Cocolino's (or similar) for 5 EURs and we will buy them in

No problem. This guy I think used sell kits for about €3-5. The source code and schematics are open source... get some made up ;-)

The D-BOX AT to ATX converters feature a PCB as well as adapter cables - these are proprietry to the Amiga.

Ok, I would be curious to know what the PCB does. All I can think of is it converts a voltage, or perhaps adds a clock.

[amigakit]

I cant see any reference on the website to the sale of these adapters for 5 EUR (Approx GBP £3.37)

You can not build and sell them for that price to the small present-day Amiga market.

Additionally if he was selling them in Europe, it would only be legal if he used RoHS compliant processes/components.

Anyone making their own adapter would also have to price in the cost of a making/buying a PIC programmer unless they could borrow one.

[alexh]

Pic programmers cost erm... £7 bringing the total to about £11 plus an hour to put it together.

I very much doubt that you can build and sell them for that price.

Depends how many you made but I am sure you could. Worse case you could sell them for a lot less than €35 and still make a reasonable profit.

[amigakit]

Exactly.  If the market was global to a few million computer owners, then economies of scale would dictate cheaper costs and therefore a lower retail price point.

Unfortunately it isn't :-(

Remember we buy the Cocolino from Elbox and sell it at their suggested price.  Elbox in return sell us a high quality product with a 2-year warranty and dealer/customer support.

[Schoenfeld]

The price of a product is not just the parts plus a few bucks, it's R&D like some people pointed out, it's continued cost like the rent for an office, (tele-) communication, a car, food - just everything that the "someone" who makes it needs to make a living. For small quantities, this makes a large part of the product price.

I agree that prices look high at first sight, but if you take all the cost just for a production run into account, you'll quickly understand that there's not much money to make on a Lyra for 35,- EUR. Before you can start a production run, you have to pay the initial cost for the PCB-photoplots, the drill and milling program, the test-adapter (alltogether a few hundred EUR), a laser stencil for the SMD solderpaste (another 700,- EUR), machine setup and programming (depends on the amount of parts, usually in the 200-300 EUR area).

Not to forget the financing cost - I'm paying a good 500,- EUR monthly to my bank because I have to keep all my products available, meaning I have to pay all this money in advance and keep stock of everything. More money is spent for the registration with the "Stiftung EAR" which handles the electronic waste in Germany. Another chunk of money goes to the chamber of commerce, where I'm a member by law (everyone who owns a business is a member by law).

Let's be optimistic and say that there's 3,- EUR left over from a Lyra sale after all that is paid. After taxes, that's less then 2,- EUR.

Now back to the initial question: A motherboard that has all that stuff integrated. Anyone want to pay the development and production of the first 500 units? Amiga chips are not available any more, un-soldering from existing A1200 boards is not an option, so a new development will ahve to be made. Lots of money to spend - let's say this will take two man-years for a clean implementation, a good 170.000,- EUR in investment. An investor wants to make at least 25% on risk capital, meaning he wants 212500,- back. Even if we could sell 1000 units, R&D would be more than 210,- EUR in the price of such a mainboard.

I'll be at Amiwest this year and will present new developments - book your tickets now, you're going to like it! Oh, and if you have some spare money to invest, I'd be happy to talk to you. That said, you should understand that an Amiga with all the small gadgets inside is the best option we currently have. Anything above that requires serious amounts of money.

Jens Schönfeld

[Agafaster]

Jens, interesting to get the viewpoint of a hardware developer in this niche market, thanks!

[alexh]

Yes, very interesting Jens.

I've never questioned the cost of any of your products (I have one of the first XSURF's, an A4000 Catweasel / Kylwalda, and a Kickflash).

You have to admit that €38 (roughly 10x the cost of the components) is too much "profit" for a mouse adapter? (for someone).

[leirbag28]

@Zombi

I agree with your ideas 90%

I mean how the heck did they Justify making the Phoenix Replacement board for the A1000?

I think an A1200 New Mobo will sell wayyyy more than a Phoenix.
 However.....I do partially understand what Jens said and believe him.

@Jens

Love your products dude!  I have an A600 clockport in my 7mhz Amiga doing absolutely nothing!  and yet it makes me seriously happy just to know its in there!  Im serious!
 Any possibility  we will ever see a SUPER Graffitt?  one that works like the DCTV but provides higher resolution and color and S-Video OUT and can be used in Workbench too?

Or how about your vey own version of a MASPlayer?  but more powerfull and less slowdown.....I mean heck....they got an MP3 decoder hardware for the Commodore 64!  so I dont get how its possible the MAS slows down alot on an Amiga. I guess because ots plugged into the Parrallel? and I suppose the Commodore 64 version is plugged in the expansion port?

Nevertheless....we need a cool MASplayer alternative........One of these too should be included as standard with every Amiga sold..............it will be the closest Modernized Amiga Bundle we can have.


@alexh

Yep....I think Cocolino/Topolinos/Mr Myza's are ridiculously high

But.I also belive there should be a Cocolino in ever home for every single Amiga.........which is why I belive I know a way to sell more Cocolinos.   They should be Automatically included with every Amiga sold these days..........we simply need to use PS/2 mice now and they are cheaper than Amiga mice anyway.  I also believe All A1200s/A600's  should be sold with an internal Slimline DVDROM/CDRW as standard. or at least the hole cut out for it and USB on all the A1200/A600 cases and also a compact flash hole righ above the PCMCIA port (Trust me it fits)  Then these Amigas are ready to be expanded a little more.and Amigas will be easily convinced to buy a CDROM or Subway or compact Flash adaptor for it.

Trust me.this will excite Amigas...........just the simple fact of having a ready made professionally cut Slimline CDROM port and USB and Compact flash........just to see the hole meakes me excited let me tell you.

[Damion]

Why they are not producing new a1200 compatible motherboard?

While we're on the subject...

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of a Viper 530 remake for the A500... now THAT would be cool, I'd buy it, also I think it would sell considering the amount of A500's out there. Decent A500 accelerators are *very* difficult to find these days.

[orange]

here are schematics for PS2 and PC keyboard adapter in Protel format in case someone needs them..