Amiga.org

Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: Pyromania on December 15, 2009, 03:32:35 PM

Title: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Pyromania on December 15, 2009, 03:32:35 PM
The Polish website retroage.net has published an interview with Natami 3D-artist Bartek Kuchta about the Natami Project. A good overview of the project is given and some new information about some of the games developed for the system. The interview is available in both Polish and English.

Polish Interview

http://www.retroage.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1869&Itemid=156&limit=1&limitstart=1

English Interview

http://www.retroage.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1869&Itemid=156&limit=1&limitstart=2
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: koshman on December 15, 2009, 05:49:00 PM
Thank you! Very interesting read. That new platformer they're working on looks gorgeous.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Orphan264 on December 15, 2009, 07:06:36 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: RMK305 on December 15, 2009, 07:09:43 PM
I just wish the Natami would actually appear. News is interesting, but having hardware in front of you after all of this time is even more interesting.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Piru on December 15, 2009, 07:31:54 PM
Quote from: RMK305;533980
I just wish the Natami would actually appear. News is interesting, but having hardware in front of you after all of this time is even more interesting.

If everything goes according to script, by now the Natami HW guy has found out that the proto boards are actually unusable and everything must be redone from scratch. The quiet from the HW guy will be explained by Gunnar with "he's just busy working", until yet another proto board will be announced, sometime in late 2011. By then the CPU design has been upgraded to 68090 with 300-bit FPU, the UltraAGA chipset has 256-bit-per-gun colors and 33-bit screen modes. Paula has been upgraded to 512 simultaneous Dolby Surround(TM)(R) channels.

Meanwhile, even more 3d engine mockup pictures appear.

Or maybe the board will be ready for sale by summer 2010!111
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: koshman on December 15, 2009, 08:54:42 PM
It's nice seeing that you're so optimistic, Piru :)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: spihunter on December 15, 2009, 08:56:36 PM
LOl! I love when Piru chimes in on the Natami threads. ;)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: kolla on December 15, 2009, 10:33:25 PM
And in the meantime MorphOS gets maybe 15-20 bugfixes and support for a few more outdated old macs. Really, I dont grasp why Piru is commenting. :)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: JimS on December 16, 2009, 04:04:11 AM
Geez.... some people don't understand that a couple of guys in their basements don't have the resources of CBM's entire engineering department. I figure that anything that we get after all this time is a bonus.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Matt_H on December 16, 2009, 04:09:32 AM
I don't follow Natami very closely, so it's nice to see some apparent progress being made. As with all things Amiga (especially new-motherboard-related), I hope but don't expect - I learned to stop holding my breath long ago. Who knows, maybe I'll have one of these in my hands in a year or two.

The interesting thing about this is that it's thus far the only new Amiga computer that can answer "Yes" to the question "Will it natively play all my old games?" (I'll classify MiniMig as a retrogaming machine rather than a full computer).

@ Piru

I liked your post. It made me laugh :)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: XDelusion on December 16, 2009, 04:55:30 AM
Piru sounds experienced. I think he's seen things... ;)


Though I've not read the article itself yet (on the list of things to do tonight) I am hopeful that something like this does eventually go into production. The C-One did after all, and MorphOS is FINALLY on Mac hardware where it should have been all along, so knows...

...stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: AmigaHeretic on December 16, 2009, 05:14:40 AM
Quote from: Piru;533981
If everything goes according to script, by now the Natami HW guy has found out that the proto boards are actually unusable and everything must be redone from scratch. The quiet from the HW guy will be explained by Gunnar with "he's just busy working", until yet another proto board will be announced, sometime in late 2011. By then the CPU design has been upgraded to 68090 with 300-bit FPU, the UltraAGA chipset has 256-bit-per-gun colors and 33-bit screen modes. Paula has been upgraded to 512 simultaneous Dolby Surround(TM)(R) channels.

Meanwhile, even more 3d engine mockup pictures appear.

Or maybe the board will be ready for sale by summer 2010!111


Yeah, but who cares?  Maybe it will never work so what?  I mean it's basically a website of a couple of guys showing "their" work on "their" hobby.  I don't see this as any different then if you were a snowboarder Piru and you posted Youtube vids of new tricks you were trying to create in the snowboard scene.  Who cares if you never get your trick to work?  It's your hobby and you're having fun.


What I don't like is "companies" saying they are working on hardware and they will release it at the end of 2008 or whatever, then show DPaint IV crap drawings of a mock up?  WTF?

Or people saying they will announce themselves as the new owners of something like a website and then basically lying/changing their mind.


The Natami guys have never posted saying they have a release date or even promised the project will ever finish.  They never lied and posted fake pictures or broke promises about anything.  They are having fun with electronics and posting pictures of that fun.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: AmigaHeretic on December 16, 2009, 05:25:26 AM
Also, let us not forget a similar situation...
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19361&highlight=minimig+dennis&page=1

It's amazing to me after the first 3 pages of people saying Minimig was a hoax and basically calling Dennis a fraud that he continued to post here and actually continued his work.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: amigadave on December 16, 2009, 06:23:05 AM
I think the fanboy at the Natami site (I won't name any names) tweaked Piru some time ago and was spouting off about hardware things he did not have experience with, or direct knowledge of, making unrealistic claims and Piru had to set him straight on several points of fact about hardware & software design and the Amiga compatibility that Natami is trying to keep while they improve on what the Classic Amiga is/was.  Of course only Piru can explain his need to chime in on almost every Natami related thread with his assertions that it is never going to see the light of day as a working product (or what ever he is actually trying to make a point of).

I love the idea of Natami's goals and what they are trying to do and really hope they can pull it off somehow and still keep 100% (well not really that much, how about 80%) backward compatibility with the Classic Amiga AGA models and as much as possible or practical backward compatibility with OCS and ECS Amigas too.

Until I ran the Amiga Game Competition at the 2009 AmiWest Show this last October I had forgotten how much software (mostly games) got broken when Commodore went from AmigaOS1.3 to 2.0 and beyond.  I guess the most compatible Amiga of all really is WinUAE!

So, although I am really enjoying my MorphOS2.4 on 1.5GHz G4 MacMini, I am also cheering on the Natami team and hoping they succeed, even if they do not hit all of their design goals.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: XDelusion on December 16, 2009, 06:56:43 AM
AmigaHeretic: Keith Courage in Alpha Zones!!! And I thought I was it's only fan! :)

Also, I think we should make the NatAmi guys into our personal slaves, which would fit in nicely within the socialist regime I am building.

 Eventually all Amiga hobbyists will be made to do my bidding!
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Piru on December 16, 2009, 07:14:41 AM
Quote from: JimS;534031
some people don't understand that a couple of guys in their basements don't have the resources of CBM's entire engineering department.

I agree. Most of them can be found from natami.net forum.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Piru on December 16, 2009, 07:18:06 AM
Quote from: AmigaHeretic;534035
Also, let us not forget a similar situation...
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19361&highlight=minimig+dennis&page=1
I have to say I was sceptical at first, too, but Dennis had something in his favor that Natami guys lack: Common sense and perspective.

Dennis knew very well that he had to cap the feature creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep) or he'd never finish the project.

Alternatively it's just that natami guys are suffering from second-system syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect) (after all they wouldn't want to just release yet another minimig).
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: utri007 on December 16, 2009, 06:20:52 PM
BoXeR is good exsample for feature creep and I'm afraid that it's true with Natami allso.

Second system syndrome, that is something wich I disacree.

Really hope that natami team has keep their foots on the ground.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on December 16, 2009, 07:24:32 PM
I think the BoXer developer got bogged down reverse engineering the chipset. That was a shame because it looked we would have an affordable A4000 with PCI support. Unfortunately it helped divide and demoralise the community with more vaporware.
If they have the chipset done, there is no reason this thing isn't ready to roll. The only thing left is price and whether or not I will have to source a 68060 to run it.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: RMK305 on December 16, 2009, 08:05:27 PM
I really hope they finish the project and offer the final product for sale. My opinion is that their biggest mistake they was to create a forum which has let a number of people add ideas to the spec list as previously mentioned and ask stupid f*@#ing questions like "How will it compare to a PS3?". I can't help but think it would be here by now if they had just worked to their original plan and specs with a few minor in house additions.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: AmigaHeretic on December 16, 2009, 08:54:42 PM
Quote from: Fanscale;534133
I think the BoXer developer got bogged down reverse engineering the chipset. That was a shame because it looked we would have an affordable A4000 with PCI support. Unfortunately it helped divide and demoralise the community with more vaporware.
If they have the chipset done, there is no reason this thing isn't ready to roll. The only thing left is price and whether or not I will have to source a 68060 to run it.



But the boxer is a good example of what I am talking about.  Boxer was being presented by a "company" they were doing advertising for it an taking a pre orders in the amount of $1495.  $300 off what was suppose to be the regular price.


So what if Natami guys have feature creep and so what if it never gets done?   They aren't asking for your money they aren't themselves saying it will ever be "finished".  It's a hobby project and they are asking nothing from us.  


Hence I don't see the need to belittle them in every thread that comes up about Natami.


Making fun of ACK Controls and Amiga Inc on the other hand is always welcome!! ;-)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: persia on December 17, 2009, 12:54:13 AM
second-system syndrome, check.  Feature creep, check.

(http://rlv.zcache.com/surfing_santa_postcard-p239210207502499230td81_210.jpg)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: EDanaII on December 17, 2009, 12:58:00 AM
What I find entertaining about this entire conversation is the notion of scope creep introduced by Piru. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that Piru is wrong, but rather, I'm using this as an oppurtunity to talk about the _real Amiga curse._ :)

Remember, the Amiga was originally developed by a small group of people -- not hugely different from "a couple of guys in their basement." The Amiga was ultimately purchased by Commodore when it began to run out of funds. In other words, they too were a victim of "feature creep." After all, if they had limited the development to what was within their means, they could have released a much less advanced Amiga... probably not much more powerful than the Macintosh of that time.

Ultimately, that's what killed the Amiga was Commodore's failure to make the Amiga the best it could be, motivated in part by their need to keep their costs down by limiting scope creep. If they had aggressively pursued the Amiga's graphics capabilities and kept it well ahead of the competition, I'm willing to bet you the machine would be alive today as a viable alternative to the PC and the Mac.

Now, having said that, just like Piru, I'm skeptical. They have a tall hill to climb and a desire to make a better machine that can only make that hill taller. Yes, like Dennis, I'd limit the scope to what I could reasonabley achieve, but so what if they don't? As far as I know, only their own money is involved -- someone correct me if I'm wrong here -- so what does it matter how tall that hill is?

So, I'll continue to watch and wait and will be happy if they actually produce something. If they fail, the Amiga community will be no worse off than it was before...

But that's my two cents.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Methuselas on December 17, 2009, 01:10:11 AM
Quote from: Fanscale;534133
I think the BoXer developer got bogged down reverse engineering the chipset. That was a shame because it looked we would have an affordable A4000 with PCI support. Unfortunately it helped divide and demoralise the community with more vaporware.

The demoralizing after the BoXer fiasco came not from Mick Tinker, but from that POS company, Anti-Gravity, who took people's money for pre-order and then when Mick said the BoXer couldn't be done, conveniently went "bankrupt"  and out of business before returning the pre-orders. I know, for a fact, 'cos I was one of those pre-orders. :madashell:
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: JimS on December 17, 2009, 01:25:16 AM
Quote from: EDanaII;534154

Remember, the Amiga was originally developed by a small group of people -- not hugely different from "a couple of guys in their basement." The Amiga was ultimately purchased by Commodore when it began to run out of funds. In other words, they too were a victim of "feature creep." After all, if they had limited the development to what was within their means, they could have released a much less advanced Amiga... probably not much more powerful than the Macintosh of that time.


Well, since I first mentioned the "couple of guys in their basement", let me say that that was not meant disparagingly. The original Amiga team may have been small, but it was intended from the start as a commercial venture. The Amiga was supposed to be a video game console at first, but when the bottom dropped out of that market, they shifted directions toward a full computer. Not what I would call "feeture creep", more like survival. But that was the 80s... now the market is settled, I don't believe anyone could introduce a new or even old machine in new clothes and expect to capture anything more than a hobbyist niche.

On the other hand, with modern FPGA technology, a small team or even an individual cam produce cool stuff for that niche.

Quote

So, I'll continue to watch and wait and will be happy if they actually produce something. If they fail, the Amiga community will be no worse off than it was before...

But that's my two cents.


Now, *that* I agree with.... two more cents. ;-)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Flashlab on December 17, 2009, 07:15:38 AM
Quote from: Piru;534041
I agree. Most of them can be found from natami.net forum.


Although I too have an account there I must agree that some of the posters there don't have any realistic view on what Natami could be (if it will be finished ever).

So I too think that adding a forum was not a good idea and maybe some of the Natami team think it backfired too; seeing that the main engineer is not posting any more.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: XDelusion on December 17, 2009, 08:05:36 AM
Amiga, such an emotional subject. :)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Ancalimon on December 17, 2009, 08:40:03 AM
Maybe if some other talented guys like them joined them to help their hobby, the project could advance faster.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: persia on December 17, 2009, 04:37:33 PM
The problem is they don't want to be known as a better minimig, so they are asking for too much.  They are trying to develop an Amiga that might have existed had much of the nineties and naughties not happened....
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: desiv on December 17, 2009, 07:50:44 PM
Quote from: persia;534233
The problem is they don't want to be known as a better minimig, so they are asking for too much.  They are trying to develop an Amiga that might have existed had much of the nineties and naughties not happened....

I suppose it really remains to be seen whether or not that actually is a problem.

Scope creep can kill a project with deadlines and financial obligations.

This project?  It's much less clear cut..

Without scope creep, maybe they could have released sooner (or actually released at all)...

With scope creep, they might not release.  Or maybe they will in 2011 or 12...  and if they do?  Well, they do...

If I miss a deadline at work because of scope creep, people get mad.
If I miss a deadline at home because of scope creep, my Pole Position cab stays broken for another few months...  But eventually, maybe I do get it working as a multi-racing game cab.  Or, maybe I don't..
Either way, no biggie...

Do I want Natami to succeed?  Yes.  Would less scope creep be better?  Depends on whether they ever release and what they release...

After all, it's not a commercial venture..

And even if it were, I've seen lots of projects with scope creep eventually make it.  Usually more painfully than it should have been, but it can be done.

desiv
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: koshman on December 17, 2009, 07:59:09 PM
Hey, I also want a Pole Position cabinet! I envy you :)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Louis Dias on December 17, 2009, 08:46:39 PM
How does an interview with an artist turn into a "let's bash the entire project" thread?
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Tomas on December 18, 2009, 12:41:31 AM
I am actually interested in buying this if it ever gets released.

But anyways.. I dont understand why so many people bitch about slow progress. I think the progress we have seen is rather amazing considering the resources these guys have. I also recall when it was first posted about and back then everyone claimed it was a hoax because of AGA lacking documentation. Now they already have a working prototype with a more or less fully aga compatible chipset that has been heavily improved.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: EDanaII on December 18, 2009, 02:02:14 AM
Amen, Tomas, amen. Personally, I think that if they actually do produce something, it will be an interesting validation of the old Amiga architecture if it can outperform equivelant hardware. I doubt I'd buy it, unless the price and performance are reasonable.


@ Lou_Dias

I don't think anyone's "bashing the entire project." What I'm reading here is a lot of healthy skepticism, something Miggy-Land always needs.


@ JimS

I really didn't take the remark as disparaging. Hell, let's not forget that Apple started quite literally as two guys in a garage. :)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Louis Dias on December 18, 2009, 03:57:42 PM
You read "healthy" and I read "unhealthy".
The people at the top of this project have real-world industry experience.
Even one of the 3D core designers works for a company that actually releases Wii/PS3/360 titles and is familiar with what functions 3D games require.
On the 2D front, it's no secret that MEMCOPY speed rules the day.  The memory controller will be faster than an A1 or even a Peg2.  This alone will increase sprite performance(and quantity) greatly.

If anything this collection of people who are doing this as a hobby have alot more initial credibility that Dennis(aka minimig) who came out of no where.  Recall the negativity there...

If Thomas has indeed found a problem with the proto-type board he received in September, I'm sure he's been busy with a rework for the past couple of months.  That is, afterall, the purpose of the 1st proto-type, is it not?  No need for negativity.

This is not a commercial venture.  Do not expect commercial deadlines.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: persia on December 18, 2009, 05:30:39 PM
Feature creep happens to real world people with real world experience.  In fact, you really have to have real world experience to suffer from feature creep.  Virtually all the Amiga vapour of the past was designed by real world people with real world experience.  Feature creep is endemic in the industry.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: desiv on December 18, 2009, 07:19:54 PM
Quote from: persia;534380
...In fact, you really have to have real world experience to suffer from feature creep....

No..  Any project where you "add features" that weren't part of the original design is feature creep.  Experience has nothing to do with it.

The more experience you have, hopefully the less likely you are to have feature creep, as you should be more aware of what it can do to your project..

However, I've seen many people with experience fall victim to feature creep as well, so I'm not convinced real world experience helps at all.  Unless you happen to be a PM.. :)

Unless your emphasis is on the "suffer" part.  In that, without real-world experience, you still have feature creep. However, since you aren't aware of it, you don't suffer from the results? :)

desiv
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: leszeka33 on December 19, 2009, 07:20:18 AM
Quote from: AmigaHeretic;534034
The Natami guys have never posted saying they have a release date or even promised the project will ever finish.  They never lied and posted fake pictures or broke promises about anything.  They are having fun with electronics and posting pictures of that fun.

The deadline for Natami developer board was "end of summer 2008".
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=1603
Natami developer board was ready sep 2009.
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=11215&x=0
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: leszeka33 on December 19, 2009, 07:45:38 AM
Quote from: AmigaHeretic;534034
Yeah, but who cares? Maybe it will never work so what?
I mean it's basically a website of a couple of guys showing "their" work on "their" hobby.
I don't see this as any different then if you were a snowboarder Piru and you posted Youtube vids of new tricks you were trying to create in the snowboard scene.
Who cares if you never get your trick to work? It's your hobby and you're having fun.

Amiga Inc. has done a wonderful job giving us the best Amiga ever created - the Amiga One.
Hyperion done a fantastic job, giving us the best Amiga Os ever created - Amiga Os 4.
These people should not be bashing by people who have not shown anything working yet.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: Karlos on December 19, 2009, 10:39:28 AM
^ :roflmao:

I think you'll find it was eyetech that brought in the A1, which in turn was basically the Teron board. Hyperion developed OS4. Not entirely sure what AInc did in all of this, apart from refuse OS4 licenses to just about every possible PPC target that came along after production of the A1 stopped.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: leszeka33 on December 19, 2009, 11:41:05 AM
Quote from: Karlos;534451
^ :roflmao:

I think you'll find it was eyetech that brought in the A1, which in turn was basically the Teron board. Hyperion developed OS4.
Outsourcing of the motherboard design, to the company that has experience in this.
It was a very wise decision.
We should all be grateful Amiga Inc. for that.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: RMK305 on December 19, 2009, 02:19:02 PM
Grateful to Amiga Inc? I take it you've just arrived. Welcome to Earth.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: jj on December 21, 2009, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: leszeka33;534455
Outsourcing of the motherboard design, to the company that has experience in this.
It was a very wise decision.
We should all be grateful Amiga Inc. for that.


That's one of the funniest things ive read regarding amiga , apart from the Iphone idea was stolen form Amiga Inc.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: recidivist on December 21, 2009, 04:08:44 PM
Dennis's minimig recreated the Amiga 500 and I thought the Natami boys were going to do an Amiga 4000+ clone-except the urge to shovel in all the features of computers developed post Commodore has really slowed the progress.
There can be such a thing as "biting off more than you can chew";I .too, have started things  beyond my ability and resources,ultimately having only a learning experience as the result.
 Acube with the SAM  has staked out the post-Commodore hardware for now,and without  comparable or better backing ,I doubt Natami can even match that ,much less surpass it.
But I also think  a Natami that  consisting of a basic A4000 class CPU and video with plenty of board slots for Zorro and PCI(e) cards should have been the first project.Sort of like the Elbox Dragon? that  never made it.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: SamuraiCrow on December 21, 2009, 07:18:32 PM
Why does everyone assume that the FPGA cores are the limitation for the Natami?  The '050 core and Robin core and Tami core aren't even required for a release.  They can release an '060-based experimental Natami today if they had the hardware working right.  The limitation is that all of those cores that I just mentioned are tested in simulators rather than actual hardware.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: desiv on December 21, 2009, 07:52:42 PM
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;534750
Why does everyone assume that the FPGA cores are the limitation for the Natami?  The '050 core and Robin core and Tami core aren't even required for a release.  They can release an '060-based experimental Natami today if they had the hardware working right.

Got it!  The limitation isn't the cores!  thanx!
What is it then?

 
Quote from: SamuraiCrow;534750
The limitation is that all of those cores that I just mentioned are tested in simulators rather than actual hardware.

Oh, so its the cores..  um..  er..  eh...  but .. I thought.. um...
:confused::confused::confused:

desiv
:):):)
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: SamuraiCrow on December 22, 2009, 05:37:04 PM
I was just restating the fact that the hardware isn't available yet.  They need available hardware to be able to do the testing.
Title: Re: Natami 3D-artist Interview
Post by: runequester on January 08, 2010, 11:18:30 PM
the way I look at it is this:

If the natami materializes and its totally awesome, I win, because I can buy one, and it'll be totally awesome

If it materializes and it isn't awesome, it'll still be an amiga that can be bought, so at least its cool.

If it never materializes.. well, I didnt pay anyone any money, so what did I lose?


Im always amazed at the willingness of computer geeks to be so staunchly anti-technology and anti-tinkering. If some dudes in a basement kitbash something cool, then that's cool for all of us.