[Speculation] How to keep Commodore afloat

[Khephren]

Matt H sums up the main point

Bill Syndes and his 'PCJnr' ideas killed the A600/A1200

I mean, we are getting use out of PCMCIA now, but it was a (very expensive) white elephent then. The money should have went on fast ram/processor. And they should have had high density floppies and a slimline CDROM slot.

And Mehdi Ali scuppered research money for AAA.
quoting Haynie 'revolutionary if released in 1990, pretty cool in 1992, ok in 1994'    -bang goes your 16bit sound, chunky, and HAM10, 24bit hybrid mode, 4mb floppies etc.

Other things i'd change:

--Release the A500 first, give Atari and the other formats a severe kicking earlier on.

--Realise the Amiga is the only egg you have left in your basket, and throw money at it.

--Realise your mid way between consoles and PC's (for wedge Amigas at least) emulate both, buy the best games developers (get some exclusives), make sure you have a good office suite.

--Stop making them baige boxes! your not a PC manufacturer, your used by artists, musicians, gamers and hobbyists. Stand out from the crowd!

--If your going to update to ECS, make it worth updating to.

--Don't sack the original Amiga team, they had more good ideas in one product than commodore had in it's whole history. Some of the stuff Mical and Needle went on to do, we could have had!


But really, If we could change history, i'd have commodore not getting hold of Amiga at all. They did not understand it or promote it enough, or spend enough money on its development.

[gertsy]

Don't run a business "close to the edge."
Separate your R&D into venture capital.  
Cut out the MM Fat.
Don't wait 6 years to bring out a "new" machine.
Know your market niche.
Be good to your Mother.

[r06ue1]

Here's a what if for you: What if Amiga had went the operating system and software route (productivity and games) and dumped hardware and supported multiple platforms (including x86)?
 
Maybe then we wouldn't be stuck with the crappy Microsoft software that we have today and instead of them owning the market, it would be Amiga OS.

[sledge]

I played ADoom on my 030 equipped Amiga 1200 yesterday. And it played just as good as Doom played on the PC back then.

IF Doom had been released for the Amiga at the same time as on the PC, I do think Commodore would have lasted longer and perhaps gotten enough money to get new chipset and stuff out. Doom sold PC:s!

Doom was probably the one and only reason that killed the Amiga 1200 so fast. Everyone I knew switched from their newly bought Amigas to PC when it came out...

Oh well.. playing ADoom made me somewhat angry about everything. Impressive version, but it makes you sad too when you think about what would have happened if it was released on the Amiga too...

[EDanaII]

• Split Amiga into two divisions: Graphics card and Computer.
• Sell Gfx Card to IBM PCs & Others.
• Use funds to aggressively develop card.
• Continue to develop Amiga computer using advancing graphics.

[ElPolloDiabl]

I played ADoom on my 030 equipped Amiga 1200 yesterday. And it played just as good as Doom played on the PC back then.

IF Doom had been released for the Amiga at the same time as on the PC, I do think Commodore would have lasted longer and perhaps gotten enough money to get new chipset and stuff out. Doom sold PC:s!

Doom was probably the one and only reason that killed the Amiga 1200 so fast. Everyone I knew switched from their newly bought Amigas to PC when it came out...

Oh well.. playing ADoom made me somewhat angry about everything. Impressive version, but it makes you sad too when you think about what would have happened if it was released on the Amiga too...

The problem was that you couldn't convince someone to buy an Amiga for games because no games were written for a 25mhz 030 Amiga until early '96. A lot of the market is permanently lost to PC. Then in 96 the internet was the big seller.

[Khephren]

Crunch point was the A1200, which did not meet expectations. A lot of my friends who had held on to their A500/+ switched after seeing how undernourished it was. Selling a machine that is hobbled to half speed out of the box goes way beyond dumb.

the sprite scaling the lynx got would have been handy for this, as would the 3DO tech. All of which was developed by original Amiga staff that short sighted commodore let go.

[WolfToTheMoon]

• Split Amiga into two divisions: Graphics card and Computer.
• Sell Gfx Card to IBM PCs & Others.
• Use funds to aggressively develop card.
• Continue to develop Amiga computer using advancing graphics.

Very good suggestion!

I'd also add... dump AGA, Hombre or whatever not and as of 1200(which would then be a desktop, not a AIO) use commodity PC hardware cards.
Custom chipsets only for consoles(this way, the historical 1200 could be made into a cheapish console)

[EDanaII]

Well, had such a path been adopted, I doubt that you would have seen any of those things, but this is all just speculation. We might as well as "how many Amigas could fit on the head of a pin?"

But all arguments in this thread benefit from hindsight. I don't think, back then, anyone appreciated fully how aggressive PC development was to become or fully appreciated the implications of Moore's law.

Two cents.

[runequester]

I played ADoom on my 030 equipped Amiga 1200 yesterday. And it played just as good as Doom played on the PC back then.

IF Doom had been released for the Amiga at the same time as on the PC, I do think Commodore would have lasted longer and perhaps gotten enough money to get new chipset and stuff out. Doom sold PC:s!

Doom was probably the one and only reason that killed the Amiga 1200 so fast. Everyone I knew switched from their newly bought Amigas to PC when it came out...

Oh well.. playing ADoom made me somewhat angry about everything. Impressive version, but it makes you sad too when you think about what would have happened if it was released on the Amiga too...

An 030 plays doom quite well indeed.
I can't get behind "doom killed the amiga" though. Doom was released in the winter of 93. By then, Commodore had already f'ed themselves beyond recovery.

[Khephren]

Well, had such a path been adopted, I doubt that you would have seen any of those things, but this is all just speculation. We might as well as "how many Amigas could fit on the head of a pin?"

But all arguments in this thread benefit from hindsight. I don't think, back then, anyone appreciated fully how aggressive PC development was to become or fully appreciated the implications of Moore's law.

Two cents.

spot on with the 'head of a pin'

As for some of the arguments on here, they date from the actual era- not hindsight, and some from the engineers on the ground at the time.

The PC did not move that fast, anything it did, commodore could have bought off the peg as well. And moore's law was a known quantity.

It's more to do with faults at commodore's end (and atari before them) than the superfast PC dev. Besides, consoles had as much as an impact, if not more.

Sure, some of these responses are just blowing smoke...but I smoke, so that's fine!

[Crom00]

Commodore could have done what many companies have done since. Negotiate with creditors and file for Bakruptcy and reorganize management and put together a plan that would convince banks to keep them aflot. By the time Commdore was in trouble the computer industry had decided it wanted to be a Windows world. Any financial or tech experts likely consulted by bankers that could have proived a bailouy no doubt would advise that Commodore was becoming a computer company of the past.

[Hattig]

These threads appear every so often, sometimes without saying that you're meant to be going back in time to change things! There's always someone that thinks that CD-ROM drives were mass produced in 1992, and cheap!

Anyway, what I think is ...

The C64 was a major success, but what were they thinking with the Plus4? The Plus4 should have been a C64 with a faster CPU (2MHz for example), 128KB, 3.5" floppy and an enhanced VIC-II - maybe not to the level of the VIC-III that was never released, but I'm sure some extra colours wouldn't have gone amiss, nor an 80-column mode. This could have replaced the C64 in due course, whilst also being an affordable C64 upgrade for current owners during the years that the Amiga was quite a bit more expensive.

As regards the Amiga - the A1000 should have been promoted heavily. The A2000 should have had a faster 68000. The A500+ and A600 should have had faster 68000s. The A1200 should have come with fast RAM (1MB + 1MB). There should have been an A1400 with 28MHz 68020 and 4MB.

And they shouldn't have sacked all the engineers when they took over Amiga. Idiots.

[runequester]

Commodore could have done what many companies have done since. Negotiate with creditors and file for Bakruptcy and reorganize management and put together a plan that would convince banks to keep them aflot. By the time Commdore was in trouble the computer industry had decided it wanted to be a Windows world. Any financial or tech experts likely consulted by bankers that could have proived a bailouy no doubt would advise that Commodore was becoming a computer company of the past.

If Apple could stick around, no reason Commodore could, provided better management had occured.

Of course, by 94 when you are closing the doors, it's too late

[Digiman]

The A1200 was released at a time when the Playstation and Saturn were about to be released, and when CD-ROMS started becoming quite common on PC's.

The A1200 spec should have included:

50Mhz 68030 with MMU as standard
4MB Fast Ram as standard (8MB optional)
Buffered IDE as standard
VGA Out (Scandoubled/Flickerfixed) as standard
CD-ROM as standard
Better graphics custom chips with basic 3D support
Better sound custom chips
Microphone input

With this setup the A1200 would have been a little more expensive but it would have blown the competition away.

PSX launch = Sept. 9, 1995

In 1992/3

4mb RAM = £100-200
CD-ROM = £200ish

3D hardware acceleration = non existent before PSX/SATURN. Jaguar had none, 3DO also very late 1993 & $700

What C= should have done is put 1 SIMM slot or something for Sept 92 A1200 launch to allow 2/4mb Fast ram and leave trapdoor.

Cd32 = stillborn concept, £99 SNES = superior machine. A1400 with 28mhz 020/4mb/AKIKO @£399 IN 1993 was the machine we all wanted. CD1200 for £500 in 1993/94 would have wiped the floor with £1000-1500 486 4mb CD+soundcard PC. 56mhz 020 later??

Also Commodore should never have stopped their PC models, C= used to be a trusted name in corporate circles in the 80s.

So to recap

failures(R&D costs)

ECS DENISE/2MB AGNUS in 1MB A500/600.... complete waste of time
C16 & Plus/4 rubbish that was intended to replace VIC20 NOT C64
C128/C128D overpriced 8bit crap vs Atari 520STM @ £349 + £100 FDD
CD32 (400 bucks for inferior gamesto 16bit SEGA/Nintedo


Potential company saviours

A500 style machine in 85 to compliment A1000 in shops.
Jay Miner's Amiga games console
14mhz 68000 in 500plus without ECS
Commodore LCD completed prototype
A1000PN portable Amiga planned
A1400 and A1400CD completed prototype in classy 3 box design
AA+ chipset for 95 to replace AGA
Dual Paula on A1200/4000 .... technically simple and instant 8ch stereo sound

[Digiman]

The problem was that you couldn't convince someone to buy an Amiga for games because no games were written for a 25mhz 030 Amiga until early '96. A lot of the market is permanently lost to PC. Then in 96 the internet was the big seller.

Also 030 = rubbish. 020 @28mhz in Blizzard 1220 proved this. 1993 PC 486 33mhz 4mb = £600 with monitor. A1200+25mhz 030 4mb = £500-550 28mhz 020 = £100 less and same performance. £150 less if designed on motherboard like for A1400 prototype

A4000/030 = slowwwww and toooo expensive for A1200/500 market hence PC dominated.

£500 A1400 4mb 28mhz 020 desperately needed by C= users in late 93. A1400 sales figures=better games option.

edit remember 486=040 levels of performance. 030 was a terrible minor improvement in performance/mhz for general gaming CPU. 486 FPU was awesome too btw not that gaming uses FPU.