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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: on October 03, 2007, 10:27:29 AM

Title: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 03, 2007, 10:27:29 AM
That's it guys, I've really had it with the Amiga 3000.

A few months ago, I sold a perfectly working A3000T to a guy from Toronto and only a few weeks after that it blew up because the disintegrating safety lock release brass pins and shorted one of the ZIII slots. No way to know what got damaged.

Now, my own A3000 craps out on me for no reason at all after I opened it up for testing ROMs (that were all working just fine).

My system worked perfectly fine prior to opening it up. It worked perfectly fine when I removed my ROMs and tested the ROMs I had found.

It just sat there for a week or two and now I get to reassemble it, no jumper changed whatsoever, no hardware change at all...BLACK SCREEN.

Not even a signal coming from the flicker fixer.

Now this is just a perfect hole in one. No error message, no color code to indicate what could be wrong.

This truly deserves a baseball bat... the people who designed such junk deserve to be hanged!
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 03, 2007, 10:35:14 AM
I just tried plugging and unplugging the keyboard to see if it makes any difference... now the power light won't even turn on...
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Acill on October 03, 2007, 10:44:54 AM
It's a shame to hear an A3000 not working, but you have to remember how old these systems are now getting. they were never intended to be used as long as we have been using them for. In most cases it is simple amaizing just how much use we have into these systems!

I would clean every contact, all the chips legs, take a look and all the caps to make sure none have opened up, and then put it back together in stock form with no accelerator. See if that does it and good luck.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: keropi on October 03, 2007, 10:45:52 AM
damn! try to reseat everything!
I too have noticed, that after inactivity time, my amigas develop random probs... I guess it is because of old electronics, caps drying-up, etc...
I sure hope Jens completes his clone-A project and delivers a replacement classic mobo of some sorts...  :-)
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Chain on October 03, 2007, 10:55:54 AM
Can you measure with some AV meter if PSU isnt dead?
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Zac67 on October 03, 2007, 11:28:53 AM
Must be frustrating, but I wouldn't call it 'flimsy' when a system has been running for 15 years - I want to see today's PCs in 2022...
Check Acill's suggestions, my guess is on the caps.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: countzero on October 03, 2007, 11:54:24 AM
I can not aggree with anything you say. My main machine is an A3000 equipped with a warp engine@40MHz, and it's kicking like crazy horse since the day I got it (one and a half year ago, from a member of this board actually). I dare not play with the configuration very much, because of the basic rule, if it's working, don't mess with it ! I will only open it again to install a Cybervision64 when I get one. And maybe to change the caps. I'm not sure about the caps though, somewhat risky business ...

bottomline, a3000s rule. Amigas with the smd caps give much mroe problems than old through hole component boards.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: A1260 on October 03, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
@eslapion

have you heard about static electricity and people?

read here and you will know why your a3000 and the one you sold is dead by now...
http://www.electricitycentral.com/articles/staticsparks.htm

this is old hw and is extra sensitive, if you don't protect the hw and your self, you will have an amiga that is as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike....
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Tomas on October 03, 2007, 01:47:35 PM
@eslapion
I have noticed similar things with old computers... Being switched off for a while can be enough.. One example was my c64 which worked perfectly.. I put in the closet stored at normal room temp, but when i wanted to use it later, it only showed a black screen.  :-(
I currently have 3 a500, which i switch on from time to time in the hope of delaying this deterioration.

Have you checked the battery by the way? Leaking batteries is one of the main reasons for Amigas dying these days.

Quote
This truly deserves a baseball bat... the people who designed such junk deserve to be hanged!

Are you kidding me?  :-o I thought it was more of a mircale that it had lasted this long without any replacemnts/repairs? The amiga 3000 is actually over 17 years now. How long did you expect it to last without any serious repairs? Just look at the xbox and playstation, you are lucky if it last more than 3 years.
I think it is sad that you blame this on the engineers who gave us this amazing piece of hardware.

edit: And like the previous poster said.. It might even be possible you killed some components yourself due to static electricity..
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: amiga92570 on October 03, 2007, 01:55:53 PM
You know with a few simple precautions static is not a big problem. I have to say in my 30+ years of working with and repairing electronics and computer equipment I have never had a failure due to static discharge. I have had a few customers that would come to me and say for example "I was using the bally astrocade --on the carpet in front of TV-- and plugged the joystick in and I heard a pop, and now it don't work". Ev en the old manuals tell you not to use on carpet flooring for heat and static reasons. Just a little common sense goes a long way. Back to the point, Static is not that much of a problem if you use basic precautions. I would say more people destroy stuff poking around were they probably shouldn't be poking than with static. Of course, The old batteries were probably a major reason for failure even if they are removed, since most people do not clean the existing residue off the board properly and it slowly eats the board.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: RW222 on October 03, 2007, 02:21:29 PM
Anyone who thinks 15 years isn't good enough, must not have had a PC recently with the "bad caps" issue.

"Back in the day" troubles were had with chips unseating, on various 8bit and 16bit machines and we'd just pick the machine up and twist it, or slam it on the desk. (Presuming it didn't have a HDD in it)
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: tokyoracer on October 03, 2007, 03:56:10 PM
My Dad's A1200 has always been working and very rarely gets used. Although it doesn't have any upgrades really so must be that the more you add to your machine, the more unreliable it is. So I was told...
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 03, 2007, 06:14:46 PM
Quote

RW222 wrote:
Anyone who thinks 15 years isn't good enough, must not have had a PC recently with the "bad caps" issue.

"Back in the day" troubles were had with chips unseating, on various 8bit and 16bit machines and we'd just pick the machine up and twist it, or slam it on the desk. (Presuming it didn't have a HDD in it)


Well, actually, I have a bunch of old C64s that all work just fine that were treated like that.

I did reseat all chips and my workshop has special carpet and grounding to prevent build-up of static electricity.

At least with PCs, when something's wrong you get a special series of beeps at startup or an error message from the BIOS.

With this thing I get nothing at all. Some times the power led turns on then becomes dim then it turns off but most of the time it doesn't even turn on now.

No way to know whats wrong.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 03, 2007, 06:16:02 PM
Quote

tokyoracer wrote:
My Dad's A1200 has always been working and very rarely gets used. Although it doesn't have any upgrades really so must be that the more you add to your machine, the more unreliable it is. So I was told...


I am trying it with the very strict minimum: Power supply, MoBo and daughtercard...
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Zac67 on October 03, 2007, 06:30:55 PM
Quote

eslapion wrote:

With this thing I get nothing at all. Some times the power led turns on then becomes dim then it turns off but most of the time it doesn't even turn on now.


Sound very much like the PSU. Have you checked voltage output (under load)?
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: CLS2086 on October 03, 2007, 06:33:09 PM
Hi,
I thought about a CPU card problem and a half dead PSU.
You can send the mobo and CPu card to AmigaCenter for a diagnostic and maybe a repair.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Invisix on October 03, 2007, 09:20:19 PM
Perhaps you mis-seated the ROMS, if that is the case, they are toast, and you have no choice but to purchase new ROMS.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: TjLaZer on October 03, 2007, 11:18:13 PM
Since you were messing with ROMs, I would check there are no pins crunched up, etc.  Also make sure battery is not leaking or any traces ruined from past leakages!  And SCSI termination!  I have had "dead" A3000 symptoms, ie turn on and no power or lights with just a missing terminator!  Yes it's true.

Also IMHO the A3000 is the BEST built Amiga.  Just because yours is having a problem ~17 years after it was released does not mean it is a POS!  I would like to see what your new PC or Mac does in 2024.   :crazy:
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Azryl on October 03, 2007, 11:53:21 PM
Check the main crystal on the motherboard... I had my A3000 stop working one day for no reason

checked the crystal, it had worked itself up and nearly out of its holder/socket... press firmly back in and A3000 working like a charm ever since :)

Az
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Tenacious on October 04, 2007, 01:44:21 AM
Before you bat it into right field, give it to one of us.  I would happily pay for shipping.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Tomas on October 04, 2007, 02:37:13 AM
Quote
At least with PCs, when something's wrong you get a special series of beeps at startup or an error message from the BIOS.

That is not always the case at all.. It all depends on where the fault lies. I myself have had experience with defect pcs/motherboards that did not even beep.
The Amiga also in 90% of the case show a error code through the startup colours or the flashing pattern of the led, but like i said that is not always the case.

One example would be a power supply problem, which this sounds most likely to be.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 04, 2007, 04:36:29 AM
Well, so far, I can tell you its not the ROMs. I have two pairs and they work just fine on another board.

Is it the power supply? Possible. I'll have to swap the PSUs between the two machines to know for sure.

5V and 12V are within tolerances (5.16 and 12.25) so the PSU seems to be ok.

I have 3 other A3000 PSUs but they've been desoldered from their power switch and only the insides remains so using them for tests is not easy.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Mark on October 04, 2007, 05:33:29 PM
Quote

amiga92570 wrote:
You know with a few simple precautions static is not a big problem. I have to say in my 30+ years of working with and repairing electronics and computer equipment I have never had a failure due to static discharge.


It is exactly THAT attitude which is causing unnecessary damage to Amiga equipment.  ESD damage is not an all-or-nothing event where either you get an immediate failure (i.e. Catastrophic Failure) or you get off scot-free with no damage.  ESD damage can show up as a reduced lifespan leading to early failure (i.e. Latent Defect).  It can show up as intermittent problems or problems that only occur after the equipment has warmed up.

Even worse, ESD damage is cumulative.  The more you mishandle the equipment, the more severe or varied the symptoms become.

That's not to say that catastrophic failure doesn't occur -- it does alright but it probably isn't the most common failure mode.

You claim you've never had a failure from ESD.  I strongly suspect you have no way of knowing that.  ESD damage causes      microscopic pits (http://electrostatics.net/library/articles/ESD_damage.htm) on the surface of IC chips.  When people in the industry look for ESD damage they have to chemically dissolve the IC package and carefully examine the chip under a microscope, usually a scanning electron microscope.  Have you ever done that?
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Chubbyrain on October 04, 2007, 05:43:55 PM
I just want to say that the A3000 is the Rolls-Royce of Amigas when it comes to build quality. I actually just did the battery hack on mine last night. One of the screws holding the MB down even had to be drilled out as it was not going to budge!(not disturbed in 15 years will do that I'm sure). After all that abuse, the thing still works like a peach (and keeps the time/date now).

Sorry to hear yours isn't working. I'd also suggest checking to make sure there isn't a short somewhere (count your screws!) and then checking the power output.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Tenacious on October 04, 2007, 09:59:04 PM
@ Mark

Well written!  It agrees with my training, too.  Everyone tells themselves that "..just this once I wont bother with a wrist strap..".  Then, when the machine fails unexpectedly in the future, they say it simply wore out.  Good reminder.

@ eslapion

It's not clear.  Did you put the original roms back in and it still won't come up?  It seems I was told by several venders (years ago when we had vendors to choose from) that A3000s had more than 1 pin-out configuration (motherboard revisions) for the rom sockets.  My first 3000 even had a rom tower that was very strange.

Also, whenever I open my A3000, I usually have to re-seat the Zorro daughter board several times before it will reboot.  When I finally get it booting again, I very carefully replace the top cover.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 05, 2007, 01:53:25 AM
Quote

Tenacious wrote:
@ eslapion

It's not clear.  Did you put the original roms back in and it still won't come up?  It seems I was told by several venders (years ago when we had vendors to choose from) that A3000s had more than 1 pin-out configuration (motherboard revisions) for the rom sockets.  My first 3000 even had a rom tower that was very strange.

Also, whenever I open my A3000, I usually have to re-seat the Zorro daughter board several times before it will reboot.  When I finally get it booting again, I very carefully replace the top cover.


I don't understand why you stick on this problematic ROMs idea.

The ROMs were removed from the board so I could test other pairs that came from dead MoBos. As it turns out, all these pairs were good.

I simply put back the original ROMs on the MoBo and now its dead. Just for the fun of it, I took these original ROMs and tested them on another machine and, sure enough, they are perfectly good.

I completely dissassembled this machine to install the Mercury accelerator last summer. I did have problems with the daughterboard and replaced it and the power supply.

Next step, I will test the daughtercard on the other board but all voltages seem fine with the PSU.

The different pinout config you refer to are U182/183 vs U180/181 ROM sockets. All my ROMs are for U180/U181 only.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 05, 2007, 03:51:37 AM
I just got a new MoBo for free... lucky me.

Supposedly tested and working... I power it up... GREEN SCREEN of death... I switch the ROMs, same thing.

Can anyone tell what this is?

And, BTW, I tried swapping the daughterboards between the 2 boards. No improvements.

Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 05, 2007, 04:49:13 AM
Quote

A1260 wrote:
@eslapion

have you heard about static electricity and people?

read here and you will know why your a3000 and the one you sold is dead by now...
http://www.electricitycentral.com/articles/staticsparks.htm

this is old hw and is extra sensitive, if you don't protect the hw and your self, you will have an amiga that is as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike....


Im sorry man but I have to say you are completely wrong...

I will post another message, read on!
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 05, 2007, 04:59:35 AM
Quote

Azryl wrote:
Check the main crystal on the motherboard... I had my A3000 stop working one day for no reason

checked the crystal, it had worked itself up and nearly out of its holder/socket... press firmly back in and A3000 working like a charm ever since :)

Az


Well, I have to say that was part of the problem, the crystal was partly out of its socket but there's even better.

I don't know if its in this thread or another that I read that A3000 computers have a tendency to have problems with their VGA ports.

Just for the sake of trying everything, I plugged in my old 1080 to the 23 pin RGB port and what do you know... a nice floppy insertion animation comes to the screen. And the power LED flickers just like it did when I tried it with my default VGA setup.

There is no static electricity damage, there is no problems with the ROMs and not with the PSU either. That's all basic stuff I checked first. Static guard is one of the most intensively used chemicals in my shop on top of the protective carpet and the grounding wristband.

This board is just fine.

As for the donated board, I have no clue why I get a green screen but I don't think I will fix this soon.

And just so you know, I already tried swapping Agnus and both 8520 CIAs so these are not at fault. Neither is the PSU, neither are the ROMs or the daughtercard.
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Chain on October 05, 2007, 07:13:18 AM
suggestions:

Reseat CHIP RAM chips
Check scandoubler switch on the back (must be on if you want vga out)
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: Kin-Hell on October 05, 2007, 12:52:22 PM
*Edit*
...missed a post....Deleted suggestion..soz!
Title: Re: Is the Amiga 3000 really so flimsy? (next step the baseball bat!)
Post by: on October 05, 2007, 07:41:20 PM
Quote

Chain wrote:
suggestions:

Reseat CHIP RAM chips
Check scandoubler switch on the back (must be on if you want vga out)


The CHIP RAM chips are soldered to the board on both boards, so I do not know which one this suggestion applies to.

The switch, one the board with the faulty VGA out, is the very first thing I tried. No improvements there.