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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: deadwood on November 08, 2010, 07:23:28 PM
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While Jason McMullan is already providing first results of Phase I bounty, the Phase II of the Kickstart ROM Replacement bounty has just been assigned to Toni Wilen. The Phase II aims at improving the Phase I results to make AROS binary compatible with AmigaOS 3.1 m68k software. Toni Willen is the maintainer of WinUAE and has already commited significant work to Phase I. The deadline date for the bounty is 31st March 2011.
The bounty page is available here: http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/6
Please remember that the bounty is still open to donations, so you can support Toni's efforts!
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If Toni can't ring up a few thousand for this after all he's done for the community over the years, we're a pretty sad group.
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This is fantastic news...
No schedule and rockin' That sure beats vaporware, empty promises and no deliveries ever.
Between this and all the other developments going on, Aros is getting (or staying) exciting! Between this and UAE integration thats already working quite nicely, PLUS catweasel support, plus the new 3d graphics, I think aros will be a fantastic amiga ng experience. (it already is if you ask me!)
I haven't got a catweasel yet, but I will soon, and I can't wait to be able to read and write amiga floppies on my aros box. That plus everything else thats going on with aros, is very cool. I hope they can port firefox and openoffice too. I'd still like to buy a mac for morphos though...
Aros is fast becoming everything I hoped for out of amithlon, but better.
My sincere thanks to all that have contributed.
Steven
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I agree! :)
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While Jason McMullan is already providing first results of Phase I bounty, the Phase II of the Kickstart ROM Replacement bounty has just been assigned to Toni Wilen. The Phase II aims at improving the Phase I results to make AROS binary compatible with AmigaOS 3.1 m68k software. Toni Willen is the maintainer of WinUAE and has already commited significant work to Phase I. The deadline date for the bounty is 31st March 2011.
The bounty page is available here: http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/6
Please remember that the bounty is still open to donations, so you can support Toni's efforts!
Hi,
I'm a donator now! :)
Thank you to everyone working on this project.
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Its childish I know "with a screen capture again provided from Michals tool."
Michals tool lol :)
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@JJ
hehe,... what a difference 2 letter can make (OF/FrOm). :)
@thread
Great news, 68k aros is steaming ahead lately :)
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If Toni can't ring up a few thousand for this after all he's done for the community over the years, we're a pretty sad group.
We may be anyway :) , but I just donated, and hope other donors get motivated.
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Awesome, thanks!
I just gave all I could to the Phase 1 bounty, but before Phase 2 is done, I'll hit that one too.
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Thanks to all who donate! The bounty already grew by $100 :)
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We may be anyway :) , but I just donated, and hope other donors get motivated.
Yes, the Amiga community and all of it's splintered branches are certainly not what we used to be, very sad.
But, that being said, I also donated more than I could really afford to this bounty, as I think it is worth the money and effort and will benefit the long term survival and/or growth of all Amiga flavors, or maybe it will only benefit AROS users (which I am not one of ......... yet).
I trust Toni to do a great job which was a motivating factor to donate without any hesitation.
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I know that AROS has helped Morphos and possibly OS4 too.
It seems like a good investment all around.
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Its childish I know "with a screen capture again provided from Michals tool."
Michals tool lol :)
LOL. A "cock-cam".
Suddenly I feel the need to watch a Carry On film. :D
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Sid James was a god
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contributed again to both phases.
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Serious question here...
Being new to the internet I'd never hear of these 'bountys' before and have been wondering why are they needed. As to me if I were write or develop a program for the Amiga I would never think of asking anyone for money just for me to do so.
So I'm left wondering why are donations needed and what is the money used for, if someone could explain to me why, then I may consider donating myself to such projects... :)
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So I'm left wondering why are donations needed and what is the money used for, if someone could explain to me why, then I may consider donating myself to such projects... :)
They're not so much "needed" as they are extra encouragement to get people to tackle pieces of work they'd otherwise not have sufficient motivation to do.
People pick up and do the fun tasks or the things they need fixed themselves all the time without caring about the bounties. But a lot of what needs doing in large projects like AROS is boring drudge work that may not directly benefit the developers that are best suited to do it all that much, or they're just too big.
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I'll echo what vidarh said and add hat they are also a good way to show your appreciation for the work undertaken to add specific functionality to the project. There are lots of (indeed most of) parts of AROS that have been developed simply as a labour of love by a particular developer, without the motivation of a bounty.
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The money is used to purchase the crystal meth and cocaine that it takes to code for 48 hour marathons. Some bounty takers also buy pizza and beer.
Others buy asian hookers. I say, whatever it takes to keep them coding and motivated, I'm happy to contribute.
Steven
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@franko:
im not a big fan of bounties neither, but such bounties that are assigned from the start to trusty active developers are worth donating if only to recognize their efforts. the bounties are not supposed to cover the costs, not even such well donated ones as firefox i think. besides this is maybe a sad example as there obviously wasnt deliverd anything worth mention not even enough feedback on development status for about a year. not to speak of the time before. kickstart bounty has been stalled too for a long time in the past. but there are other examples. chris hodges completed his own bounty to port his usb stack to aros in shortest time. i think with tony willen, the autor of winuae, we might expect the best.
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Yes the deadlines come and go for many of the assigned projects, but I suppose we can't complain, people get busy.
UAE integration has been slowly and surely getting finished, but it was supposed to be done last june.
Many bounties get assigned and never finished, which sucks because that means we wait a year to find out nothing is finished. Some things get stuck in place that way...
Still, the bounty system is great because you can contribute to what you want, therefore the user bases needs get addressed this way.
Steven
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The money is used to purchase the crystal meth and cocaine that it takes to code for 48 hour marathons. Some bounty takers also buy pizza and beer.
Others buy asian hookers. I say, whatever it takes to keep them coding and motivated, I'm happy to contribute.
Steven
I hope you don't mind ... but I think I might steal that for my sig =D
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sure, like I said, whatever it takes to keep them coding.
Don't laugh, I worked somewhere like that once. Fun gig.
Steven
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I have no problems donating to bounties. I've done it in the past and I will continue to do so.
Some projects I don't think the bounty comes anywhere near the value of the time that gets spent on them.
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sure, like I said, whatever it takes to keep them coding.
Don't laugh, I worked somewhere like that once. Fun gig.
Remember the scene in Swordfish where Hugh Jackman is hacking with a gun to his head while getting "serviced" by Halle Berry? My jobs usually feel like that, but without the Halle Berry part.
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Another status report from Jason and Toni:
http://www.evillabs.net/wiki/index.php/AROS_m68k-amiga#Nov_12.2C_2010:_AROS_Shell
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Bootshell now works and we have a graphical display (thanks to Toni), good stuff! Reminds me of the state AROS x86 native was in 10 years ago :)
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i dont like that about changing the abi. any details why it was neccessary? is that the problem wit the particular gcc version they are using? 4.5.1? how about downgrade?
edit: i observed several incompatibilities introduced after 3.4.0, even after 4 if im able to tell, the register syntax being one of them. are they using sdi?
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i dont like that about changing the abi. any details why it was neccessary? is that the problem wit the particular gcc version they are using? 4.5.1? how about downgrade?
Just a short term problem, trying to force gcc to use to the Address registers the way the Amiga expects :)
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i hope you are right. actually we (or better alain and bernd) were able to force gcc to that following bernds method. it worked with 2.9.x and 3.4.x but was kinda hack. it was enough to recompile running storm mesa but there were some flaws. probably not due to that. being noob i dont know if this is the same problem though.
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@wawrzon:
not even such well donated ones as firefox i think. besides this is maybe a sad example as there obviously wasnt deliverd anything worth mention not even enough feedback on development status for about a year. not to speak of the time before.
I don't think you quite got what is happening with Firefox. First, the developers took the project on without a bounty in place. They took it on under their own terms, purely because they wanted to do it. Then the bounty arrived, created and suggested by people other than the developers, purely as a show of appreciation for their work. It wasn't meant as a motivational spur for the developers, and the developers are under no obligation to pass on any information, or even finish the project. That said, they have been pretty quiet about it but have said they're still working on it, delayed by the move to the Firefox 4 code base.
Anyway, I think that bounties are quite a good system, giving great rewards to the community such as this Kickstart one. If you don't like the bounties, then don't contribute, but feel free to suggest a realistic alternative solution.
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i am contributing to bounties i expect to be completed. for instance: i would have contributed to opensource poseidon (although i already have it available on 68k) but it went so fast that i was late. given the record of chris hodges it was obvious that it will be completed in short. i contributed a little to kickstart bounty, when it wasnt assigned to anyone that seem to be capable to complete it, but now i contributed again because i expect results in a short therm. i do not contribute to update zune compatibility to mui4, although i would like to, but i do not see chances for it to be assigned atm. i didnt contribute to firefox either, because as 68k user it has no value to me, as its been stated it will ont work below 4.1 and also because i do not believe that developers that have to develop and maintain the whole operating system all alone have enough time left for that.
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i am contributing to bounties i expect to be completed. for instance: i would have contributed to opensource poseidon (although i already have it available on 68k) but it went so fast that i was late. given the record of chris hodges it was obvious that it will be completed in short. i contributed a little to kickstart bounty, when it wasnt assigned to anyone that seem to be capable to complete it, but now i contributed again because i expect results in a short therm. i do not contribute to update zune compatibility to mui4, although i would like to, but i do not see chances for it to be assigned atm. i didnt contribute to firefox either, because as 68k user it has no value to me, as its been stated it will ont work below 4.1 and also because i do not believe that developers that have to develop and maintain the whole operating system all alone have enough time left for that.
Slightly off topic, but why bother with Firefox? Surely a webkit browser is a much better idea... And we have that with OWB, which I have used on my AROS laptop without issue (as an iPhone user, I'm used to a flashless Internet)... I expect with enough RAM, OWB works fine on 68k too!
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@bloodline: yes, i expect aros owb to be easiest task, but have not been able to track down the complete source, the one in contribs contains some diffs. see my posts on aros-exec:
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5245&forum=2&post_id=48494#forumpost48494
to compile mos version, what i'd prefer, will be much more difficult i think, im not even familiar enough with cmake.
edit: if you could help mi with this issue, id be grateful, but still there endiannes issues may remain, like with lunapaint. sorry for my english.
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New update from Jason:
http://www.evillabs.net/wiki/index.php/AROS_m68k-amiga#Nov_25.2C_2010:_AROS_Wanderer
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Wow, progress is going much faster than I expected!
It is great to see workbench could load. :)
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It's good to see progress being made! Nice green background. I think we need some 8 colour icons though!
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It's been pointed out at AROS Exec that if you want to test this, you'd do yourself a real favor if you turn off decoration (look for C: Decoration in the startup-sequence). The AROS decoration/theme code is a real resource hog even on fast x86 boxes. If you comment out / remove the call to C: Decoration it'll fall back to the 3.1 look anyway.
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Awesome ! Going to donate a little to both bounties right now !!
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there is a password needed to checkout aros svn. id like to see if i can build it. optionally could test on my a4k with flashrom as soon as some sort of hd interface is supported. any chance that aos devices will work under aros?
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there is a password needed to checkout aros svn. id like to see if i can build it. optionally could test on my a4k with flashrom as soon as some sort of hd interface is supported. any chance that aos devices will work under aros?
You can get source package from downloads page:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/download.php
or a read-only GIT access here:
http://repo.or.cz/w/AROS.git
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thx. wasnt entirely succesful yet to check out the code, blame the bad connection.
will report back if i need build instructions, but have to see the makefiles first.
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The bounty has passed $2000, thanks to everyone who donated :)
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/6
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Correct me if I'm wrong because I have a poor knowledge on this. But is this Kickstart replacement a reverse engineering of the original Kickstart?
Anyways, I love how AROS is doing well. Might try it to my computer soon. I am a mere new guy in the Amiga world and I respect all the people maintaining how great Amiga (or AmigaOS) is.
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Correct me if I'm wrong because I have a poor knowledge on this. But is this Kickstart replacement a reverse engineering of the original Kickstart?
Anyways, I love how AROS is doing well. Might try it to my computer soon. I am a mere new guy in the Amiga world and I respect all the people maintaining how great Amiga (or AmigaOS) is.
Sort of... Basically AROS is an operating system build to the same specification as AmigaOS, this is quite easy to do as the OS was VERY well documented... In theory it should be a drop in replacement for the original OS, Jason and Toni are currently working through the source code fixing areas of incompatibility :)
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Progress report from Toni:
"Dos packet conversion success! (maybe)
WB3.0 and 3.1 disks now boot without any extra warning or error
messages (loadwb of course does nothing)
WB2.0 works but ConClip crashes. (different problem than in WB3.x
ConClip)
WB 1.x can't work without BCPL compatibility layer.
Other randomly chosen non-BCPL CLI programs also seem to work quite
nicely now.
Both disks were copied to UAE directory filesystem because AFS handler
dos packet conversion is not yet ready.
Still lots of work to do, some commands still crash, monitor drivers
crash (not much hope to make them work I guess but at least need to
prevent crashing) etc.."
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Sweet! Nice to hear things are progressing along even if with some issues. Thank you for the hard work and the update. Waiting anxiously...
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Yet another update, this time from Jason:
With Toni's DOS Packets patches, and my recent checkins tonight,
I currently have C:Echo from WB 1.3 (BCPL!) working.
Now that the BCPL and Packet support infrastructure is here,
full AmigaOS 1.3 support for BCPL CLI applications is just
a Small Matter of Programming.
We're starting to get desperate for a 'Wanderer Lite' that
could be made ROMmable. It would be nice if someone that
has some GUI experience could take that up.
I expect to have 95% of the Workbench 1.3/3.0/3.1 BCPL apps
working by mid-January 2011.
Does anyone know of any 'major' BCPL applications out there
that I should test with other than those on the Workbench/Install
disks for 1.x/2.x/3.x?
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The progress Aros is making is simply amazing! :shock:
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Does anyone know of any 'major' BCPL applications ...
Did any non-CBM developers ever write any applications in BCPL? Back in '87, I don't remember any Amiga BCPL compilers being available. I suspect the BCPL compiler used for AmigaDOS was on a workstation and cross-compiled for Amiga hardware. Any West Chester people care to comment?
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Did any non-CBM developers ever write any applications in BCPL? Back in '87, I don't remember any Amiga BCPL compilers being available. I suspect the BCPL compiler used for AmigaDOS was on a workstation and cross-compiled for Amiga hardware. Any West Chester people care to comment?
I believe it's more for 1.3 C folder commands. In 2.0, nothing was BCPL, iirc. So those C commands were calling BCPL libraries instead of C/C++ libraries. Something to this effect.
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Hi,
Another progress report from Toni:
m68k-amiga AROS port now boots AROS original startup-sequence without
any weird side-effects (no insert disk requesters or boot shell not
closing etc)
Most utilities run and most preferences programs at least open.
And finally, WB1.3 startup-sequence runs quite nicely now. Remaining
problems: FastFonts (ff) corrupts all fonts and system/setmap expects
LONG return type from OpenDevice().
(Is it ok to change OpenDevice()/WaitIO()/DoIO() return type to LONG?
it should have no effect to existing programs)
I think now most problems "only" require lots and lots of time for
debugging.
Of course also need to find some kind of tiny WB replacement and
rewriting chipset HIDD for KS replacement purposes. (and IDE driver
and and..)
EDIT: screenshot:
http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/aros-m68k-2010-12-28.png
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i dont know if 512kb ks should be really a requirement at this time, most people will want to use it on uae, and these who would like to run it on classic (like me) probably have already deneb or similar hardware providing possibility to hold (even an extended, for what i know) kickstart in flash.
you will need a lot of testers soon i suppose. i must see how can i link in.
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The MiniMig will run with a 1 Meg KS wont it?
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Hi,
Another progress report from Toni:
m68k-amiga AROS port now boots AROS original startup-sequence without
any weird side-effects (no insert disk requesters or boot shell not
closing etc)
Most utilities run and most preferences programs at least open.
And finally, WB1.3 startup-sequence runs quite nicely now. Remaining
problems: FastFonts (ff) corrupts all fonts and system/setmap expects
LONG return type from OpenDevice().
(Is it ok to change OpenDevice()/WaitIO()/DoIO() return type to LONG?
it should have no effect to existing programs)
I think now most problems "only" require lots and lots of time for
debugging.
Of course also need to find some kind of tiny WB replacement and
rewriting chipset HIDD for KS replacement purposes. (and IDE driver
and and..)
EDIT: screenshot:
http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/aros-m68k-2010-12-28.png
Toni is making very rapid progress, AROS-68k is almost here :D
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One more screen shot :)
http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/aros-m68k-2010-12-31.png
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I think now most problems "only" require lots and lots of time for debugging.
I'm not sure what I could bring to the effort, but I would be willing to help in whatever way I could.
Regards,
AmigaEd
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I'm not sure what I could bring to the effort, but I would be willing to help in whatever way I could.
Regards,
AmigaEd
Once Toni is satisfied with stability/features he will most probably prepare some realease. At that point it will be up to the community to test how AROS m68k works with original games/applications and report problem. There will be a lot of work for people willing to help out :)
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The MiniMig will run with a 1 Meg KS wont it?
Mine won't at least. But that's a firmware issue, so if there's no firmware upgrade that can load a 1MB kickstart file available already, I'm sure someone will take a stab at it eventually.
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The MiniMig will run with a 1 Meg KS wont it?
The Minimig AGA core on the Replay board supports 1 MB ROMs.
The AROS ROM boots from the floppy image. It requires 68020+ CPU.
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The Minimig AGA core on the Replay board supports 1 MB ROMs.
The AROS ROM boots from the floppy image. It requires 68020+ CPU.
Yet another reason for us to keep nagging you and Mike to get the Replay finished :)
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Video of current amiga-m68k build in action:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7bwn9ad3bs4ec9a
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Video of current amiga-m68k build in action:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7bwn9ad3bs4ec9a
Ahhhh!!! 2011 The Year we Made Contact!
Very Nice! Keeps looking more and more like the Future is here!
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Some more screenshots - this time showing that some ORIGINAL AmigaOS 3.1 applications already run under AROS m68k :)
PS. If there are some Amiga m68k developers who are interested in working on upper level compatibility (Intuition, Zune/MUI) please get in touch with AROS Dev Team (http://aros.sourceforge.net/contact.php)
(http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/aros-m68k-2011-01-02-02.png)
(http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/aros-m68k-2011-01-02-01.png)
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Video was awesome! (Too many WoW addons in Desktop though lol \o/)
The screenies with 3.9 icons + DOpus were just Epix!
Thanks for the wonderful job. Keep up the excellent work peepz!
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@Deadwood: could you post the configuration and AROS snapshot number you used ?
I can't get the wanderer disk image to boot. I'm using the latest WinUAE beta, with some fast RAM and RTG,.. At the end of the boot it just exits the CLI but there's no wanderer window/icons.
Btw I noticed I have some error requesters while booting: "Please insert volume devs:",... I don't think I'm supposed to get these.
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@Deadwood: could you post the configuration and AROS snapshot number you used ?
I can't get the wanderer disk image to boot. I'm using the latest WinUAE beta, with some fast RAM and RTG,.. At the end of the boot it just exits the CLI but there's no wanderer window/icons.
Btw I noticed I have some error requesters while booting: "Please insert volume devs:",... I don't think I'm supposed to get these.
Don't use the floppy image... I setup the aros folder up as dh0: and it boots for me. =]
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Update:
Jason McMullan is now working on getting AROS to boot on REAL Amiga 1200 with ACA 1230/56 accelerator card:
"First boot log on my A1200 - hung during initialization, will
add some debugging tomorrow. But at least:
* I can get serial output
* It detected memory correctly
* Both upper and lower 512K ROM partitions are detected, and
the Residents are discovered
* Floppy detection works (I have two real floppies, and one HxC emulator)"
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Update:
"The Amiga 1200 can now run AROS to the shell. I've got it working
using an Individual Computers ACA1230/56,
but Toni is working on a way of getting it to run in Z3 memory (ie
Blizzard PPC) via a dynamic relocation method.
Screenshot of AROS running HDInstTools on a PAL A1200 with an
ACA1230/56 as the MAPROM device.
http://www.evillabs.net/wiki/index.php/AROS_m68k-amiga#Jan_11.2C_2011:_AROS_on_Amiga_1200_.2B_ACA_1230
"
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This is great :) Here are still quite many ex 68k developers, hope they are interested of this and you guys get all the help you need.
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aros68k (under winuae) running a number of sdl ports:
-netsurf (i didnt know how to connect yet)
-starfighter and pig (two sdl games ive ported to os3.x)
and two mui applications:
- scout (crashes in certain functions not implemented yet)
- luciferin (makes no sence on uae, but works, migh be useful on classic though)
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6128/aros68k.th.jpg) (http://img266.imageshack.us/i/aros68k.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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copy/paste from my yesterdays aw.net post:
real3d under aros 68k (working)
http://img214.imageshack.us/i/real1b.jpg/
as you see also rendering functions, though as real3d is not expecting 32 bit display it does not display correctly. there is a patch that requires 16 bit depth screen, but this is not available currently.
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another update: two warp3d test applications by alain thellier, utilizing wazp3dunder winuae:
starship and cow3d (two instances)
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3506/w3dv.th.jpg) (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/w3dv.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)warp3d seems not to be fully functional, but to the most extent.
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another update: two warp3d test applications by alain thellier, utilizing wazp3dunder winuae:
starship and cow3d (two instances)
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3506/w3dv.th.jpg) (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/w3dv.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)warp3d seems not to be fully functional, but to the most extent.
Very nice!
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This is looking very promising. Not long and free from Amiga Inc at last :)
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This is looking very promising. Not long and free from Amiga Inc at last :)
Wow, that would be nice. Looking pretty good. Will keep watching.
:pint:
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imagine 3d fp works (sort of)
http://img833.imageshack.us/i/arosimagine1.jpg/
http://img841.imageshack.us/i/arosimagine2.jpg/
since the data requester gets messed up i cant try to load any fifteen years old project..
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So let me get this straight: this kickstart will allow AROS 68 k to run on classic 68k hardware, and we will able to run native 68k software within AROS?
Would that require the Commodore kikckstart 3.1 roms to be physically removed and replaced with burned ROS kickstart roms, or will it be possible to use something like Bliz kick or remapollo to softkick the AROS kickstart.
Aren't most AROS apps written to run in x86 AROS, and therefore not compatible with 68 k AROS?
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So let me get this straight: this kickstart will allow AROS 68 k to run on classic 68k hardware, and we will able to run native 68k software within AROS?
Would that require the Commodore kikckstart 3.1 roms to be physically removed and replaced with burned ROS kickstart roms, or will it be possible to use something like Bliz kick or remapollo to softkick the AROS kickstart.
Aren't most AROS apps written to run in x86 AROS, and therefore not compatible with 68 k AROS?
Aros x86 apps would need to be recompiled for Aros 68k. However 68K AOS binaries will run out of the box. You will also gain drivers etc from Aros. Jason received my mediator last week so pci should also become available eventually.
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Aren't most AROS apps written to run in x86 AROS, and therefore not compatible with 68 k AROS?
No, most programs are written in C using the Amiga API, some of them in C++. Every night most of the programs are compiled for a lot of CPUs: i386, AMD64, PPC, ARM, M68k. Most of the programs on aros-archives are only compiled for i386 as it is the only arch that has a somewhat stable ABI.
greets,
Staf.
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Just curious - how's the performance coming along? I recall from earlier discussion that it was rather slow, but the developers were sure it could be improved later on...
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Just curious - how's the performance coming along? I recall from earlier discussion that it was rather slow, but the developers were sure it could be improved later on...
I think I read recently that they weren't doing any optimizing yet. There are still lots other things that needs to be addressed before there's any point doing optimization, at least that's how I understood it.
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concerning performance, from what is see in uae it is rather slow (and buggy), but the issue is looked into. programs run generally about as fast as on aos id say.
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yam under aros68k/zune
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/aros68kyam.jpg/
utilizes latest os3/68k mui classes
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yam under aros68k/zune
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/aros68kyam.jpg/
utilizes latest os3/68k mui classes
Link is dead :)
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yam under aros68k/zune
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/aros68kyam.jpg/
utilizes latest os3/68k mui classes
BEWARE: Just tried to look at the above link which worked for a moment and then it redirected me to to a bunch of malware virus scanning crap.:destroy:
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Okay, now I see it :)
Thanks
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yam under aros68k/zune
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/aros68kyam.jpg/
utilizes latest os3/68k mui classes
I always get malware from there...
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you mean- texteditor class??
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Link is dead :)
Worked fine for me. Glad to see AROS68K is progressing so nicely. :)
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It's good to see progress being made.
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Toni and Jason started working on workbench replacement fitting into ROM modules. Here are first results (original AmigaOS 3.1 Workbench disk booted using AROS Rom in WinUAE)
(http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/workbook.jpg)
Some more information from Jason:
"Workbook: Super lightweight Workbench/Wanderer replacement
Workbook is a BOOPSI based Workbench replacement, designed
for very light weight systems, namely Amiga m68k.
This is the initial prototype checkin, which can (before it
crashes due to some memory corruption I haven't fully
diagnosed yet) open the disk volumes, drawers, and launch
applications.
TODO: Stop crashing, snapshops, copy, paste, rename, info, etc etc.
Total compiled size is 20k on m68k.
This is *not* meant as a replacement for Wanderer on full systems. It is for low memory/slow cpu systems, and as an exerciser for workbench.library."
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AROS 68K gives me wet dreams... Someone had to say it!
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Toni and Jason started working on workbench replacement fitting into ROM modules. Here are first results (original AmigaOS 3.1 Workbench disk booted using AROS Rom in WinUAE)
(http://download.aros3d.org/pictures/workbook.jpg)
Some more information from Jason:
"Workbook: Super lightweight Workbench/Wanderer replacement
Workbook is a BOOPSI based Workbench replacement, designed
for very light weight systems, namely Amiga m68k.
"
Will it offer any udgraded functionality, such as c2p or a ham aware screenmode prefs?
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Will it offer any udgraded functionality, such as c2p or a ham aware screenmode prefs?
Already does :) RTG is built into AROS.
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This is fantastic work, fantastic news. Say goodbye to the AINC stranglehold on the roms. Hey silly billy, here's one more reason your going to need a real job finally you slouch amiga grave robbing prick!
These guys are doing just fabulous work. QUICK! Someone get them a briefcase full of coke and some asian hookers. Whatever it takes to keep them coding and happy, its the least we can do.
Steven
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Just had a small look: NICE! :)
It's felling like we're back in 1985 :)
Toni and Jason (and all other people involved !) are really doing an amazing work! :)
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Sooner this is done sooner Cloanto can drop dead with their legal Kickstart Amiga Forever stranglehold.
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http://img705.imageshack.us/i/workbook.jpg/
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Sooner this is done sooner Cloanto can drop dead with their legal Kickstart Amiga Forever stranglehold.
Why the Cloanto hate?
They are one of the biggest contributors to this bounty if I'm not mistaken.
They have never wronged the community and have provided us with a legal way to emulate Amiga. Now they won't have to pay licensing fees either.
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Sooner this is done sooner Cloanto can drop dead with their legal Kickstart Amiga Forever stranglehold.
Not their idea.
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Sooner this is done sooner Cloanto can drop dead with their legal Kickstart Amiga Forever stranglehold.
Just curious, but did you go by the handle of DMan in the 90's?
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Already does :) RTG is built into AROS.
I mean on AGA machines without a graphics card?
It annoys me that shapeshifter runs in HAM8 but my WB won't. (well, there's a screenmode hack to run WB and icons in HAM, but it WBpattern just draws backdrops in their base colours)
Very good news though, iv'e really enjoyed using AROS recently, it coming on leaps and bounds. And means we can add features without having to ask Amiga, Cloanto, Hyperion or anyone elses perrmission to tinker with our own machines.
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oops
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Sooner this is done sooner Cloanto can drop dead with their legal Kickstart Amiga Forever stranglehold.
Cloanto managed to stop A Inc sitting on the Kickstart ROM an letting them rot in some lawyers IP filing cabinet... They want free ROMs as much as you do... More so in fact as they have contributed to this bounty :)
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Is there anywhere I can go and read about what capabilities this will bring to our old girls?
Want to see if this will really bring less dither to my workbench...
And poor old Cloanto get a bad rep by associating with evil. A bit like Bobba fett. Man's just doing his job.
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You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.
That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.
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You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.
That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.
You do realize that you obviously have no idea what the words "copyright" and "infringe" mean?
Nor have you heard of clean room reverse engineering or BSD vs AT&T or SCO vs IBM. :rolleyes:
Nor the agreement between Fleecy Moss and AROS either.
As a last resort the AROS team are more than welcome to host their SVN on svn.commodoreamiga.ir anyway.
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You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.
That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.
Nobody gives a toss about who claims to own what anymore, if those who claim to own the IPs/Copyright/Distribution and all that crap really cared or thought they had a leg to stand on, then all this BS would have been solved years ago...
At the end of the day there are countless sites on the web where all this stuff can be downloaded for free or a small charge and it constantly turns up on eBay no matter how many times eBay removes it... :)
I fail to understand why folk on these sites get their knickers in a twist when it's obvious whomever claims to own it doesn't give a shit otherwise there would be no sites on the web or the stuff being sold on places like eBay if they were really that bothered about it... :rolleyes:
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You all realize if the IP owners chose to take legal action they can pay a lawyer and claim that AROS infringes upon copyrights.
That being said this is this whole kickstart replacement is awesome news.
Well,they can. but A)the copyright holders are skint B)AROS does not contain copyrighted data-that's what it's about, and why it's taken so long.
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You do realize that you obviously have no idea what the words "copyright" and "infringe" mean?
Nor have you heard of clean room reverse engineering or BSD vs AT&T or SCO vs IBM. :rolleyes:
Nor the agreement between Fleecy Moss and AROS either.
As a last resort the AROS team are more than welcome to host their SVN on svn.commodoreamiga.ir anyway.
:rolleyes:
The irony is neither do you... As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.
1. 'Clean Room' reverse engineering requires heavily documented procedures to prove that it truly was a clean room environment. I would suggest you research AMD vs Intel when AMD was able to create Intel compatible CPUs. This required two separate rooms, a whole bunch of lawyers, and was well documented by video. Hiding in your parent's basement or closet and writing your own Kickstart or creating your i7 CPU would never hold up in court.
2. Have any of these folks looked at a disassembly of Kickstart? If they have, you automatically loose. Its a term called 'tainted' and its a very good argument. If you don't believe me, Google the Windows Source Code that was leaked awhile back and see what the Open Source people did. They ran the other way when the code was released.
The reason? If anybody working on an Open Source project that also looked at the Windows Source Code could be accused of applying copyrighted or patented features of Windows to their own Open Source Project.
Still don't believe me? What did RJ Mical do when he wrote Intuition? He stated he locked himself in a room and wrote his own code. He went out of his way to not look at other code nor features of another OS. In the early 1980s, that was ok. Would that hold up today, probably not.
3. Copyright vs Patent. You have many, many issues here with Kickstart. Let me give you some examples:
Guru Mediation Error: This is a method for displaying a serious error from the OS. The idea behind it could not be patented (showing an error message to the user). However, showing such a message with a black screen, a red flashing box, the error inside said box, and the words labeling the error could be copyrighted by the owner. Also, how that error message is generated could be patented.
More to the point, imagine you arguing to a judge or jury that you just happened to write an exact copy of how this error message is displayed to a user in you clean room environment? Not likely...
Kickstart Workbench Hand Image: That is a picture folks and is copyrighted by somebody.
Also, you can't patent the idea that a message is displayed asking for boot media but your code better be very different from that of the source.
Right Mouse Click to Display a Menu: I believe RJ Mical owns the patent for this. Using a mouse button to offer options to the user isn't patentable but the Amiga's Right Click Show Hidden Menu certainly is...
As you can see, there are many complicated issues here so I hope my point is made.
NOTES:
I am not an attorney and I'm just giving you a broad overview of the issues that are involved. Trust me, there are many more issues involved here.
I am not privy to what agreements have been made and to/with whom which would obviously change how the above issues are worked out
Does anyone care? Whether or not its legal is one argument. Whether or not anyone cares is an entirely different argument. The Amiga isn't exactly a money making device so does it make sense to sue such a small group of people. I do not know who owns what or if patents have been renewed to keep them from expiring.
Money. Lets be realistic here, the legal system is truly moderated by money. If push came to shove, would all involved have the money to fight a prolonged legal battle? That is an issue that often decides outcomes.
Why do you think the phrase "You never sue IBM" is still relevant today? They will outlast you in the legal system. I don't know who owns Kickstart (or the part there of) but do they have more money than the Kickstart Replacement folks? I have no idea but maybe.
Lastly, I am speaking from an American Legal System. If part of the code is owned outside of the US it would become even more complicated.
-P
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:rolleyes:
The irony is neither do you... As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.
You should educate yourself first.
1. All the Amiga patents have expired by now.
2. AROS contains no AmigaOS source code. This should be obvious just by inspecting the code.
3. Writing code that does the exact same thing as copyrighted code is not illegal.
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:rolleyes:
The irony is neither do you... As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.
In EU we have much less sucky law regarding reverse engineering. See Council Directive 91/250/EEC of 14 May 1991 on the legal protection of computer programs, specifically article 6 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31991L0250:EN:HTML)
3. Copyright vs Patent. You have many, many issues here with Kickstart. Let me give you some examples:
Guru Mediation Error: This is a method for displaying a serious error from the OS. The idea behind it could not be patented (showing an error message to the user). However, showing such a message with a black screen, a red flashing box, the error inside said box, and the words labeling the error could be copyrighted by the owner.
I believe a guru mediation as itself doesn't qualify as an artwork, so I don't think it would be a problem. You probably would need to ditch the word "Guru Meditation" though. That could be argued to be unique enough. The rest: black background and red text with a blinking border is way too generic to qualify as an artwork. Then it's just up to writing your own code without breaching the copyright of the original.
Right Mouse Click to Display a Menu: I believe RJ Mical owns the patent for this.
If he did, the patent has expired ages ago.
Using a mouse button to offer options to the user isn't patentable but the Amiga's Right Click Show Hidden Menu certainly is...
What was patented as possibility to toggle multiple options in one menu session. This patent has expired by now (couple of years ago).
I am speaking from an American Legal System. If part of the code is owned outside of the US it would become even more complicated.
I find it highly gratifying not having to abide to US law.
PS. If someone thinks I'm making this all up, I am not. We had to consider these legal issues very carefully when creating MorphOS. A lot of sabre (http://www.sintonen.fi/temp/hermans.txt) rattling (http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/) over MorphOS legality occurred but little (read: nothing) came out of it. I don't believe AROS has anything to fear from the legality stand point either.
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@ Pentad & all the other Legal/ Copyright/ IP/ etc.. etc.. boring gits...
You may be a Uni prof teching copyright & patent law but the whole point is when it comes to the Amiga then as the years have shown its all just one big crock of shit...
If whomever out there who claims they own the legal rights to any Amiga/Commodore related stuff and had enough evidence to prove it in a court of law whether American or elsewhere in the world and if they actually cared about the whole ruddy thing then it would have all been solved a long time ago...
Yes I know there have been some court cases and believe that there are still some going on, mainly to just benefit the lawyers and other leeches, however the simple fact remains that Amiga ROM Images & Workbench disk sets can easily be found on the net and can easily be downloaded by anyone. Now if those who genuinely can prove ownership of this stuff were really bothered it seems most strange to me that they do nothing to prevent it...
Seems to me the only ones who like to keep all this BS going are those holier than thou armchair experts who post on these forums spouting their so called expert opinions on all things legal & copyright. For gawds sake give it a rest, we've heard it all over & over again and it all leads to nothing...
Do something useful for or with your Amiga (if you have one) and leave your so called expert opinions in your minds where the rest of us don't have to read this claptrap over and over again and again...
If someone out their who can genuinely prove that they own the rights to this or that when it comes to the Amiga then leave it to them to do so in a court of law and all you legal/copyright pundits post something useful and interesting or even just funny instead of going over and over the same old BS time after time after time... PLEASE... :)
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I'm with Franko. At this point, the whole "Amiga ownership" argument-fest is just a bunch of rules-lawyering by vultures that should have been shown the door ages ago and their hangers-on in the Amiga community. It's unfortunate that this disgraceful mess can still carry legal ramifications, but as far as I'm concerned, **** 'em.
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You should educate yourself first.
1. All the Amiga patents have expired by now.
2. AROS contains no AmigaOS source code. This should be obvious just by inspecting the code.
3. Writing code that does the exact same thing as copyrighted code is not illegal.
I appreciate Pentad's message..
It was good information.
He never said any of those patents hadn't expired.
Obviously some (all? 20 years definitely covers all the early Amiga work, 1991 and prior) are expired.
I believe his mentioning of RJ Mical's mouse click was for the purpose of explanation of the difference between patentable and not..
I didn't see any mention of AROS specifically in his message.
As as for your point number 3, illegal? Maybe or maybe not.. IANAL..
Could you be sued (at least in the U.S.) for that? I'm betting you could, depending on how you handled the writing of the code.
I didn't see anything "wrong" in his statement.
He wasn't saying anything specifically was or wasn't violating copyrights and patents.. He was just giving us some information on the concepts.
IMHO
desiv
p.s. Does anyone know if there are any Amiga-related patents younger than 20 years old? AGA stuff?
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:rolleyes:
The irony is neither do you... As an actual University Professor that teaches copyright and patent law allow me to educate you.
Kickstart Workbench Hand Image: That is a picture folks and is copyrighted by somebody.
Agreed, that does need to be changed. It' needs to be a claw and not a hand. ;)
Also, you can't patent the idea that a message is displayed asking for boot media but your code better be very different from that of the source.
Didn't the SCO law suit disaster settle that issue? As long as it's not common (C&P) code, there shouldn't be much of an issue for the courts to decide on.
Right Mouse Click to Display a Menu: I believe RJ Mical owns the patent for this. Using a mouse button to offer options to the user isn't patentable but the Amiga's Right Click Show Hidden Menu certainly is...
It was by C= and it's 20 years expired years ago (2006?) which is why AROS went back to right mouse click.
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You should educate yourself first.
1. All the Amiga patents have expired by now.
I don't think the final C= patent has expired. Think it might be ~2013 but it might be sooner then that. It's the last C= patent issued and that was shortly before C= went under.
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I don't think the final C= patent has expired. Think it might be ~2013 but it might be sooner then that. It's the last C= patent issued and that was shortly before C= went under.
I just took a quick look and couldn't find any that had anything to do with AmigaOS.
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Guys I've seen copyright cases where one party accuses the other of copyright issues without any basis and wins becuase they had more money for lawyers.
So examine the situation of the Amiga almost every transfer of ownership or product release eventually winds up in court of some kind of legal contreversy.
Either this brand has a curse or these are all pieces of a greater puzzle.
It seems like whoever owns the IP DOESN'T want to release product. But make deals that are posted on the internet to keep the name current if you do a google search on the brand.
At any rate I wish them well and hope things can be worked out to release actual cool product.
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trying to document emerging functionalities, here are some fresh aros 68k screenshots for ya, folks:
ab3d tkg runs, well, sort of, there are some display glitches (you can observe on the screenshot) and i wasnt able to open door (maybe forgot which key causes that action):
http://img811.imageshack.us/i/tkgm.jpg/
after warp3d is working, now also storm mesa demos and examples as well as some more complicated programs are mostly working under wazp3d on my uae setup:
http://img18.imageshack.us/i/aros68gl1.jpg/
http://img43.imageshack.us/i/aros68gl2.jpg/
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trying to document emerging functionalities, here are some fresh aros 68k screenshots for ya, folks:
ab3d tkg runs, well, sort of, there are some display glitches (you can observe on the screenshot) and i wasnt able to open door (maybe forgot which key causes that action):
http://img811.imageshack.us/i/tkgm.jpg/
after warp3d is working, now also storm mesa demos and examples as well as some more complicated programs are mostly working under wazp3d on my uae setup:
http://img18.imageshack.us/i/aros68gl1.jpg/
http://img43.imageshack.us/i/aros68gl2.jpg/
Very nice! :pint:
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not so great a quality pictures:
http://img684.imageshack.us/i/aros1p.jpg/
http://img21.imageshack.us/i/aros2c.jpg/
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/aros3.jpg/
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Like 99% of the UAE/WinUAE users I don't care about AROS 68K, wake me up when I have a legal FREE file to load a game's ADFs in WinUAE without breaking A Inc copyright/IP :)
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provided your adfs are legal, lol.
but seriously even under uae such a basic feature as moving windows off screen, that i have to achieve patching aos kickstart is built in aros for free. if optimized aros might become superior alternative to 1.x-3.x range aos for whatever use.
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not so great a quality pictures:
http://img684.imageshack.us/i/aros1p.jpg/
http://img21.imageshack.us/i/aros2c.jpg/
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/aros3.jpg/
Excellent!
Thanks for these pics, looks like the port is maturing fast. :)
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Like 99% of the UAE/WinUAE users I don't care about AROS 68K, wake me up when I have a legal FREE file to load a game's ADFs in WinUAE without breaking A Inc copyright/IP :)
Should be quite suitable for that now... It's the high level parts of the OS that need work.
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More importantly, is to get an AROS68k build that can boot an ADF on a MiniMig. I would think that it COULD be done now, but nobody with the know how has taken that on. It sure would be nice if MiniMigs could ship with a legal KickStart already installed, even if it doesn't include the Workbench parts.
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For the love of the Amiga, please change this awfull mouse pointer by another better one...
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For the love of the Amiga, please change this awfull mouse pointer by another better one...
There are so many more important things to sort out before worrying about the mouse pointer, which is user customisable anyway ;)
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Should be quite suitable for that now... It's the high level parts of the OS that need work.
Yeah, this is exactly what Digiman wants. Time for him to wake up?
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There are so many more important things to sort out before worrying about the mouse pointer, which is user customisable anyway ;)
+1 :)
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Good stuff indeed, coming along nicely :o)
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Great!
I am just looking forward that Amiga 68k hunk compatibility gets achieved (not just a loader).
In that way, we can freely mix Aros68k with native AmigaOS68k files, and get the best from both worlds.
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Great!
I am just looking forward that Amiga 68k hunk compatibility gets achieved (not just a loader).
In that way, we can freely mix Aros68k with native AmigaOS68k files, and get the best from both worlds.
It does use Amiga hunk files, and you can mix and match to some degree (AROS components are ELF files), But AROS can load both :)
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It does use Amiga hunk files, and you can mix and match to some degree (AROS components are ELF files), But AROS can load both :)
I see your point, but I am looking that it works both ways, not just Amiga files in an AROS enviroment, but AROS executables in an Amiga enviroment.
Remember that still, Amiga68k is much more optimised/faster than AROS on the same hardware. :)
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I see your point, but I am looking that it works both ways, not just Amiga files in an AROS enviroment, but AROS executables in an Amiga enviroment.
Remember that still, Amiga68k is much more optimised/faster than AROS on the same hardware. :)
There's a tool that can convert AROS ELF binaries to AmigaOS hunk files. But if you want files that work both places, just compile them for AmigaOS...
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There's a tool that can convert AROS ELF binaries to AmigaOS hunk files. But if you want files that work both places, just compile them for AmigaOS...
Which tool performs that convertion? It would be very interesting to get some AROS components working on AmigaOS.
Thanks in advance
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not so great a quality pictures:
http://img684.imageshack.us/i/aros1p.jpg/
http://img21.imageshack.us/i/aros2c.jpg/
http://img101.imageshack.us/i/aros3.jpg/
Very impressive, just wish this was done years ago.
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Which tool performs that convertion? It would be very interesting to get some AROS components working on AmigaOS.
Thanks in advance
ELF2HUNK (http://www.evillabs.net/wiki/index.php/AROS_m68k-amiga#Feb_8.2C_2011:_ELF2HUNK_utility) by Jason McMullan
There are some limitations (http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5862&menumode=2). Most notably, AROS apps using arosc.library won't work (at least not yet), and arosc.library itself won't work so moving that over won't do you any good. But apps that stick with purely the AmigaOS API will work. This restrictions makes it quite limited at the moment.
To get AROS components working on AmigaOS you're better off looking AfA.
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More news from Toni (source: AROS dev list):
ArosBootStrap now accepts more parameter(s), one or more extra resident
files (similar to BlizKick)
For example "arosbootstrap aros.elf.gz scsi.device_40.12(A3000)" allows
AROS to boot from SCSI on my real A3000.
(scsi.device is extracted from A3000 ROM using romsplit that comes with
remus package)
Next phase is to support RTG boards using AOS Picasso96 .card and .chip
files. (I think I already mentioned this few months ago)
"arosbootstrap aros.elf.gz libs:picasso96/CirrusGD542X.chip
libs:picasso96/PicassoII.card scsi.device_40.12(A3000)"
already loads on my PicassoII expanded A3000, PicassoII.card FindCard()
and InitCard() functions already succeed but nothing is visible yet.
I hope I have something working in next few days..
Motorola 68040/68060 missing instruction emulation library is also working
now, but it isn't yet rom built-in. It is quite big (~60k) so I guess it
should be only included in arosbootstrap file at this point?
(official 68040/68060 libraries may not be used because for example they
need to update FPU stack frame handling = touch exec internals that
shouldn't be touched)
Autoconfig support has been partially rewritten, most boards should now
configure properly.
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havnt had time to test for few days, but now im getting curious. hope the other commits improve stability a little. and of course fpu support is a must to try.
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I tested todays build and it is looking much better in WinUAE.
It's a shame that the preferences aren't set better. Until you tweak it, it seems really bad.
Screen refresh in non-truecolor modes is painfully slow. You can watch the pixels draw in, even on a fast WinUAE system.
Use the new build of WinUAE or else it won't run.
Use the nightly ROM and System HD folder from Sourceforge.
Set it for a stock A1200 with extra fast RAM (16M+ I saw some huge memory use/leaks in Wanderer)
Enable JIT and Picasso emulation
Painfully get into preferences and set the screen mode to a 32bit RTG mode and save (test doesn't seem to work)
Restart WinUAE after this, otherwise it doesn't seem to really pick up on the changes, causing other redraw problems.
At that point it works fairly well, but it's still pretty buggy.
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From the dev mailing list while talking about scalos for aros.
"I'll put that on my list of things to test after (a) DOS Packets, (b)
Mediator PCI support for m68k, (c) AHCI support for AROS [all
architectures], (d) VESA ROM PCI graphics card support for AROS
(non-x86)[1]
But it's in my list!
[1] This uses the x86 emulator code from u-boot, which is *not* GPL licensed.
--
Jason McMullan"
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Look what people can do now with AROS m68k!
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=60144
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Look what people can do now with AROS m68k!
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=60144
Very nice!