Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: on November 05, 2002, 01:44:43 AM
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Wouldn't it be easier to engineer the mobo with the chips already onboard, as opposed to building an interface for the 'classic' mobo's. It would certainly eliminate any compatibility issues that the A1 might with older boards.
The only reason I can think of is cost, but how much could those older chips cost?
Anyway, maybe someone can set me straight on this.
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Because it would destroy the value of the motherboard.
It would be much, much better to put the custom chips on a pci card that would integrate itself into the motherboard.
As a matter of a fact.
That is the only sensible way to do it.
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I would like "ECS on PCI"-card, that would be nice :-D
I don't want AGA, I want ECS :-D
Who has the IP for the ECS chips???
Maybe they could combine it into one chip, might make it 64/128/256bit but remain the compatibility :-o
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And where would you get these mystical custom chips?
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Is that AOne <--> A1200 interface still planned? I
have an A1200 just lying here...
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SlimJim
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I think he's talking about an 'integrated' board?..
I thought of that myself...if the A1 where built like one of the P3 era HP-Asus boards.
Integrated
Sound
video
Ethernet
etc
but it had AGP/PCI slots on it aswell...
That is 'kinda' how the classic amiga was and I thought it might make game dev easier/etc.
custom chips on a PCI card would be great though...that would be really cool...
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SlimJim wrote:
Is that AOne <--> A1200 interface still planned? I
have an A1200 just lying here...
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SlimJim
You mean that bridgeboard that was to connect the AmigaONE to a legacy A1200/A4000? hehehe....
They havent talked about THAT since just before the "dark silent period 2001" and havent talked about it since the TeronCX replaced the AmigaOldONE.
Usually when something has been cancelled, it doesn't get talked about... at all. :-o
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ummm
Didn't Mick Tinker already try this concept
"amiga chipset on a pci card"
siamese pci or whatever they called it
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yeah, The Siamese Inside Out card. I believe he was having to redesign the AGA chipset as, well, they are not made any more...
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Yup. Both the BoXer and SiamesePCI/InsideOut card were based on the AA+ chip set designed by Mick Tinker. I'm not certain, but the AA+ may have died along with the BoXer and Anti-Gravity...
Anybody know fo sure???
Anyway, it would be the ideal solution. IIRC, it's conceivable it could have provided 100% compatibility for the OCS, ECS, and AGA/AA chip sets... Not to mention it's own additions, plus fact it could/would have been software upgradeable too.
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re: Cost of reinventing antique chips:
1. Find present chip manufacturer willing to waste vast amounts of time for little return or start up your own company.
2. Ramp-up costs
3. Quality control and testing
4. production begins on 15 year old technology because, fer shur, Paula really does sound better than the latest Sound Blaster, and a naked AGA set looks soooooo much better than a Voodoo card display.
Price: Overwhelming. Returns: Next to none. Usefullness: Questionable
Hey, this is a NEW Amiga! Get used to it.
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Yeah, but it would still be cool!!!
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I don't see how manufacturing the old chips would be a problem. All the necessary logic could now be contained on a single die, and I doubt any semiconductor company would turn down a paying contract. If that is the case, though, it could be done easily on a PLD, although that would increase the cost of the mobo by about US$60. The old chips could always be recycled, too, but I guess that's not practical.
Anyway, I guess it's kind of a moot point anyway if the A1 is indeed intended to be a 'fresh start' for the hardware.
I'm not yet up to date on what's been going on with the Amiga (a lot has happened since my A500 days, and it's a bit confusing), but I was under the impression that we wouldn't see a completely new hardware philosophy until OS5. I guess I was mistaken.
Of, course at this rate we won't see OS5 until 2010, so I guess the A1 will be around for a while, and I guess it wouldn't be good to saddle it with 'legacy' hardware.
And yes, I realize I do a lot of 'guessing' but that's because I don't want to sound like a know-it-all. This really isn't my area of expertise (yet) but I have at least a passing understanding of computer electronics.
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I doubt that Amiga inc would be willing to risk appx £40,000 to design the chip, and another £40,000 to start production, and about £60 per chip. If you like OCS/ECS/AGA so much then buy a classic amiga.
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It`s not just the cost of producing new custom chips..
Where the hell would they plug into the A1?
As for sticking them on a PCI card, there are precious few slots on it as it is.
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What would you run on them that would not look or sound better on the new hardware?
If 100% compatability means demos and Imagine2 then forget it.
New software on new hardware will make the chips totally obsolete a few months after the release of OS4.
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I am not sure of it anymore, but if I remember
right chip production plants do not do the type
of chips which were used by the Amiga Custom Chipset any more. So you would need to redo
the chips as a different kind of chipset (I think that Mick Tinker thing was supposed to do
something like that, also having all chips on
one single chip instead).
IMHO software which still uses the custom chipset usually can be emulated by using UAE just fine. And if someone still uses AGA for
a PPC program - hey, he should update his software to use Graphics Board code instead, or at least optionally :) But if we think of it most software requiring the Custom-Chipset could run on UAE.
Including AGA on AmigaOne would be a waste,
as you then had to drag around this old
(how do I say "crap" in a way not offending
to Custom Chipset lovers ? :) For the record - I did not say "Crap", just think of whatever replacement-word you can come up with for those four letters :) Right, people not wanting AGA can insert "crap" as replacement if they want, hehehe...) right into the future Amiga hardware. This is not only a discussion of COST.
If someone does a PCI-Expansion with the AGA on Board - fine, he can do this. But no such
stuff on the MOTHERBOARD. Also we definitely would NOT want to push back the AmigaOne because of - AGA.
Steffen Haeuser
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Sorry, for my ignorance, but I have been away from Amiga for a number of years.
Given that the new A1 will have a relatively fast G3 or G4, and that an adequate JIT 68K emulator will be included with AOS4.0, how impossible would it be for someone to develop a faster emulated version of the amiga custom chips?
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hnl_dk wrote:
I would like "ECS on PCI"-card, that would be nice :-D
I don't want AGA, I want ECS :-D
Who has the IP for the ECS chips???
Maybe they could combine it into one chip, might make it 64/128/256bit but remain the compatibility :-o
That would be a great solution. Having new features doesnt mean you have to ditch all the old ones.
To get a bit technical...
If you stick 0x13 in ax and then do an int 10h on a pc (even with a mighty radeon 9700) guess what? you're in VGA 320x200 8-bit screenmode. And what happens if you then write some random values to a000000h? Yep, pixels appear on the screen! Its called backwards compatibility. Has this held the PC back? I don't think so!
What will happen if you write to $dff100 on an A1?
Crash!
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>I don't see how manufacturing the old chips would be a problem. All the necessary
>logic could now be contained on a single die, and I doubt any semiconductor company
>would turn down a paying contract.
And who exactly wil be paying for that contract? Chips ain't cheap. An 0.18 micron mask set costs over US$100000. That's JUST MASKS. No layout effort, no design effort, no verification, no manufacturing costs, nothing but the masks. (Masks are to chips what negatives are to camera film photographs) 0.22u or 0.25u designs are a bit cheaper, but still ain't cheap.
Plus there's the rumors that the Escom/Gateway buyout had lost track of the CAD files. If that rumor is true, then they don't know where the schematic/netlist design is to build a new layout from. (Or was it the Commodore/Escom buyout that rumor goes with?)
FPGAs would be cheaper inthe long run, as they'd never sell enough AmigaOnes with AGA built-in to pay for the chip production in the quantities needed. An Amiga product today could never pay for custom chips, the pricing just isn't feasible. Commodore sold a few million Amigas, on that scale it's doable. On AmigaOne's scale, it's not practical to do custom chips.
Besides, what do we get out of it? Paula on board? Easy and much cheaper to emulate. AGA? So maybe some AGA-only games won't work. Keep your 1200 and play them on that... ECS? Run UAE. It's not worth the price involved.
Besides, as a number of people have said, the AmigaOne is the MAI's Teron board, or very very close to it. Which is already laid out. You'd have to start the motherboard design from scratch as well. Again, is it worth the extra cost of redoing the board? I don't think so.
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So nowadays I would have no use whatsover of having the old hardware conned to A1? It all
can be done better in sofware? (I haven't been much
into this emulation scene before).
In short, my vanilla A1200 is "useless" in this respect?
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SlimJim