Amiga.org

Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: Steril707 on September 18, 2007, 01:25:09 PM

Title: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 18, 2007, 01:25:09 PM
and i am really surprised how good it already looks...

i am just getting back into the Amiga universe after a decadelong hiatus, and today i finally decided to give AROS a try after reading so much about over last few days of reading up stuff on the current Amiga scene.

some random thoughts of mine on this:

* You should really emphasize the fact that you can boot up the whole thing from cd, without the need of installing anything on a hd, as long as you don't try to save anything. My english is not the best, so i wasn't sure if i have to install anything on the harddrive of my PC to check it out, which would be a big no-no for me for just checking out an alternative OS.
This way probably a lot of people might give this a try who otherwise won't. This is a little bit like Knoppix, you can check out if you like it, and install later on (when everything's up to a state where it makes really sense).

Might give you some more public recognition.



* The "Workbench" looks fine so far. Still some tearing artifacts on the icons while moving the scrollbar, but i guess you are aware of this.


* Using CLI/Shell: i typed "endcli" to terminate the window, but instead the whole system started going down and booting up again. I wasn't sure if this behaviour is wanted or a known bug. It would also be nice to have "Ed" or any other editor starting up from within the shell, when being called.


So far, i really like what i have seen, and i am sure coming back for more.

Can you give me an estimate how many people are working on the various parts of AROS?

Thanks for all the work being done already,
Mike
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: cv643d on September 18, 2007, 02:50:45 PM
(If only AROS had integrated Amiga emulation for 68k programs)

*wishing*
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: 4pLaY on September 18, 2007, 02:52:54 PM
Glad you liked it =) there is no set number of people working but there is a few working from time to time.... people working on the core OS itself is probably around a handfull at top at any given month wich is why we are always looking for more people to help out.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 18, 2007, 03:17:41 PM
Is there a site explaining the "core mechanics" of developing for AROS? I mean, stuff like, which language do you use ( guess C), how do you compile and integrate stuff into the system, etc.

I have been doing ASM (6502, 6809, 68k) and C/C++ for a long time, but at the moment contributing something to AROS looks like a big mountain in front of me.

So, is there an "101 on AROS development" existing?   :-)




Edit: I guess i found it:

http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/developers/compiling.php

and subpages...

Good !!!  :-)
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Mazze on September 18, 2007, 06:41:17 PM
Quote

cv643d wrote:
(If only AROS had integrated Amiga emulation for 68k programs)

*wishing*


This is the most wanted feature for AROS. Problem is that a Big-Endian emulator can't be easily implemented on a Little-Endian system.

What should be possible is a better integration of (E)UAE. This means networking, Picasso96 support etc.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Mazze on September 18, 2007, 06:51:03 PM
Quote

Steril707 wrote:

* Using CLI/Shell: i typed "endcli" to terminate the window, but instead the whole system started going down and booting up again. I wasn't sure if this behaviour is wanted or a known bug. It would also be nice to have "Ed" or any other editor starting up from within the shell, when being called.


This is an unknown and unwanted bug. At least I wasn't aware of it. BWT: You can report bugs at AROS' Bug Tracker. (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=43586&atid=439463)

AROS has a simple editor. Just type "editor" in a shell or start "system/tools/editor".

Quote

Can you give me an estimate how many people are working on the various parts of AROS?


There are about 5 people developing AROS core, most of them spare-time. And there are some people which write/port software for AROS.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 18, 2007, 10:09:00 PM
I guess there were some ideas about implementing a Java Virtual Machine for AROS before?

Anybody working on this already? Maybe a Kaffe port?

Or would it be too early to think about this?

(lots of question marks  :-D )

greets,
Mike
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: mingle on September 19, 2007, 12:19:06 AM
Hmm... I checked out last night's (17-Sep-2007) build, but it doesn't get past the grub boot screen on my Thinkpad R51 laptop.

Any suggestions for command-line settings/options?

Cheers,

Mike.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 19, 2007, 12:39:57 AM
I think i had the same problem, and i noticed it had something to do with "floppy drive" (that i dont possess) being activated in my bios settings... after switching the floppy off, everything worked like a charm...
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: dammy on September 19, 2007, 12:58:49 AM
Quote
(If only AROS had integrated Amiga emulation for 68k programs)


Don't wish for it, fund it (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=7)!

Dammy
TeamAROS (http://www.teamaros.org)
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Mazze on September 19, 2007, 06:28:43 PM
Quote

Steril707 wrote:
I guess there were some ideas about implementing a Java Virtual Machine for AROS before?

Anybody working on this already? Maybe a Kaffe port?



I found this projects on sourceforge:
jamiga (http://sourceforge.net/projects/jamiga/)
arosgjc (http://sourceforge.net/projects/arosgcj/)

Both don't look very active
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Fester on September 19, 2007, 10:59:05 PM
Quote

dammy wrote:
Don't wish for it, fund it (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=7)!

Dammy


Seems like Team Aros website is down ...

Anyway, it didn't work 4 hours ago and I still don't have access now.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: 4pLaY on September 19, 2007, 11:12:46 PM
i know the site was about to undergo some upgrading on the server side.... while you wait you can view this beauty =) http://aros-exec.org/modules/xcgal/displayimage.php?pid=325
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 20, 2007, 12:17:26 AM
But Jamiga was developed for OS4 and 3.9 ...

I guess AROS is not compatible to them, anyway, isn't it?

Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Mazze on September 20, 2007, 12:33:07 AM
Quote

Steril707 wrote:
But Jamiga was developed for OS4 and 3.9 ...

I guess AROS is not compatible to them, anyway, isn't it?



This depends on what functions of AOS3.9 it uses. The biggest difference between AOS3.1 and 3.9 is the ReAction GUI system.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 20, 2007, 12:40:30 AM
Quote

Mazze wrote:
Quote

Steril707 wrote:
But Jamiga was developed for OS4 and 3.9 ...

I guess AROS is not compatible to them, anyway, isn't it?



This depends on what functions of AOS3.9 it uses. The biggest difference between AOS3.1 and 3.9 is the ReAction GUI system.


I guess i still have to learn a lot about AROS. The Amiga world can be confusing sometimes ;)
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: dammy on September 20, 2007, 12:59:20 AM
Quote
Seems like Team Aros website is down ...


Upgraded the server OS, so I'm singing the blues :boohoo: Just finishing up a second install (h0rked up the first one with rsync) and back on the net. TeamAROS maybe back up tomorrow or so.  Painful upgrade, but it's now running FC7 x86_64 as AROS64's future build machine.

Dammy
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Piru on September 20, 2007, 01:02:48 AM
@dammy
Quote
Painful upgrade, but it's now running FC7 x86_64 as AROS64's future build machine.

Excuse my ignorance, but why does AROS require you to run 64-bit OS to be able to build 64-bit version of it? Heck, you can even build things for different CPU, let alone 64bit target of the same CPU family...
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: dammy on September 20, 2007, 12:08:37 PM
Quote
Excuse my ignorance, but why does AROS require you to run 64-bit OS to be able to build 64-bit version of it? Heck, you can even build things for different CPU, let alone 64bit target of the same CPU family..


Because AROS build is difficult enough with same arch builds. If you need further clarification, talk to Dr. Schulz on this matter since he was the one who directed x86_64 native for a build machine for AROS64.

Dammy
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 20, 2007, 01:57:38 PM
So, after the painful process of installing Ubuntu on my PC, which involved resizing existing partitions on my hard disk, get up and ndiswrapper for my wlancard, and reconfiguring stuff i have never heard about before (xorg.conf for backingstore), i finally was able to get the hosted version Aros running, and it looks quite fine.

So, up to the next questions:

How do i integrate the Contrib. files into the aros folder i created? What do i do with all these nMake files?

Sorry to ask, these things are all new to me, and i am happy i was able to get the Linux side of this running.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Mazze on September 20, 2007, 07:02:11 PM
Quote


How do i integrate the Contrib. files into the aros folder i created? What do i do with all these nMake files?


Did you download the source code of contrib? You need the binary release "i386-all-contrib".

You'd need the metamake files if you want to build AROS by yourself from the sourcecode:
Compiling AROS Documentation (http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/developers/compiling.php)
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Mazze on September 20, 2007, 07:09:27 PM
Quote

Piru wrote:
@dammy
Quote
Painful upgrade, but it's now running FC7 x86_64 as AROS64's future build machine.

Excuse my ignorance, but why does AROS require you to run 64-bit OS to be able to build 64-bit version of it? Heck, you can even build things for different CPU, let alone 64bit target of the same CPU family...


There was recently a discussion about this on the Developer Mailing List. IIRC the reason was that the build system uses tools from the host system. A possible solution would be that AROS builds its own crosscompiler suite from the source.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 21, 2007, 07:21:51 AM
Thanks for the hint on the "Binary"-Section. I wil try that out later. I guess that was the culprit.

So, some more questions from me:

How compatible is AROS in relation to the other A-OS'es or old code? I think i don't completely get this yet.

Example:
Let' say i take some old C-code, that adheres to the rules made by any old Amiga OS (3.1 or before), can i recompile that code and get it to run on AROS for example. And how compatible would this be to Morphos or AOS4?


Then, regarding this: http://ringlord.com/people/walrus/amiga/java.html

it seems there was already a working JVM on the Amiga platform. Wouldn't it been possible to get this to run on AROS somehow (so, thats where my questions about compatibilities from above come from).

I think getting Java to run on AROS would mean a lot of programs for the OS. And lots of programs cannot be a bad thing. :)

Mike

Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Heinz on September 21, 2007, 07:39:48 AM
Quote

Steril707 wrote:
Thanks for the hint on the "Binary"-Section. I wil try that out later. I guess that was the culprit.

So, some more questions from me:

How compatible is AROS in relation to the other A-OS'es or old code? I think i don't completely get this yet.

Example:
Let' say i take some old C-code, that adheres to the rules made by any old Amiga OS (3.1 or before), can i recompile that code and get it to run on AROS for example.


Yes. In most cases a recompile should work fine.
I tried that with Memleak (http://archives.aros-exec.org/index.php?function=showfile&file=development/misc/memleak_1.0-aros-i386.zip)  

 and it was really just a recompile and worked out of the Box!

But there may be some problems with different endianess in some cases. For example if a Program saves it Data in a binary Format, or if it reads or write directly to some registers, not using the system API.

Quote

 And how compatible would this be to Morphos or AOS4?


You would need to recompile the Program.

Quote

Then, regarding this: http://ringlord.com/people/walrus/amiga/java.html

it seems there was already a working JVM on the Amiga platform. Wouldn't it been possible to get this to run on AROS somehow (so, thats where my questions about compatibilities from above come from).


You need to ask this question to the author.

Quote

I think getting Java to run on AROS would mean a lot of programs for the OS. And lots of programs cannot be a bad thing. :)

Mike


I think so too.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Piru on September 21, 2007, 07:41:00 AM
@Steril707
Quote
it seems there was already a working JVM on the Amiga platform.

It depends on your definition of "working". IMO amiga platform does not have java.

Quote
I think getting Java to run on AROS would mean a lot of programs for the OS.

Such as? I can't remember many programs that don't have a GUI and run with anchient java version.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 21, 2007, 07:47:17 AM
Quote

Piru wrote:
@Steril707
Quote
it seems there was already a working JVM on the Amiga platform.

It depends on your definition of "working". IMO amiga platform does not have java.


Well, if the Kaffe JVM got ported to the Amiga OS, couldn't it been done again for some newer JVM? I think it would.

Quote

Quote
I think getting Java to run on AROS would mean a lot of programs for the OS.

Such as? I can't remember many programs that don't have a GUI and run with anchient java version.


I was generally talking about Java, not specifically about these old ports.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Piru on September 21, 2007, 10:12:13 AM
@Steril707
Quote
Well, if the Kaffe JVM got ported to the Amiga OS, couldn't it been done again for some newer JVM?

That'd still not give you AWT, not to mention any other GUI stuff. That code is platform specific, and it has never been completed in any java "port" so far. Also:
Quote
NOTE: JFC/Swing is a completely platform independent set of GUI components. While this may sound like the ideal solution to the Amiga's lack of not having a full AWT available, you must understand that all GUI stuff eventually has to interface with a native operating systems. In this case, JFC/Swing extends AWT components. For this reason, mention of the JFC/Swing packages for the Amiga is merely academic and will not actually work.


I'd guess JAmiga (http://www.jamiga.org/) is the most advanced Java there is for miggy.

Quote
I was generally talking about Java, not specifically about these old ports.

Generally speaking amiga has no Java.
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Steril707 on September 21, 2007, 10:30:01 AM
Generally speaking amiga has no Java.
-------------

Really, man, i give up on you.

I asked about Java being ported to AROS, i asked about what possibilities there are with existing Amiga ports of the JVM with AROS.

I never talked about using any GUI related stuff firsthand, not about AWT and not about the Swing libraries.

Most of the stuff i encountered in Java development over the last years wasn't even Gui related, but of the server, security, Servlet, RMI type of applications. I think most people are not into Java created GUIs anyway.

Having a JVM port being able to execute thousands of console only apps would be fair enough for a start, don't you think so?
Title: Re: So, i checked out AROS on my X86 machine a few minutes ago..
Post by: Piru on September 21, 2007, 10:43:44 AM
@Steril707

Even JAmiga just can't run many of the complex apps. Well, if you don't believe me, just try it. Just trying to point out that amiga java is far from being complete.

Quote
the server, security, Servlet, RMI type of applications

Personally I don't think AROS is very suitable for most of these.