PS3 security is "epic fail"

[billt]

I agree with all this.  The standard BS argument is:"I bought it so I can do what I want with it".  No.  You bought hardware plus an agreement on what you could and could not do with that hardware.  Sony has the right to take steps that ensure the hardware is used as it intended, even if that means to add or remove features-like support for OtherOS.  You don't agree? Don't buy the hardware.

I'm surprised by such sentiment in an Amiga forum. We're the guys that put our motherboards into tower cases, doing a lot of work to make it happen. We have build yourself CPU accelerators, added PAL/NTSC switches to single mode computers, there's CHIP RAM addons like MegaChip, video flickerfixers like Indivision, and PCI busses like Prometheus and Mediator. If we're supposed to f-ing leave stuff the way it came from the factory, then there's a heck of a boatload of wrongdoing in our entire history.

If you want me to abide by some agreement to not tinker with the things I buy, then put it on the OUTSIDE of the friggin box so I know it before I pay up. If I don't get an opportunity to know such things until after I've paid, sorry, I really don't feel very strongly bound by it.

[A1260]

Makes sense and is good if it leads to PS3 with 3TB HD full of games and in game reset enabled on joypads. I have missed this functionality on these consoles,

XBOX established this level of usage, aka level 1 - unlocked and ready to blow.

why you need reset?

all you do is press the ps3 button on the joypad then you can enter the xmb...

[guest7146]

I have to say I dont like the attitude on here, of them coders and off other sites towards Sony, they make the ps3 its their product so they get to decide what should and shouldn't be allowed on it, if you don't like it, dont support them and get your self a cheap Linux box for all your home brew you could ask for.  
 

I'm on the side of the hackers.  The reason is, if I purchase a piece of hardware, then I expect to be able to use it as I see fit.  I don't expect to be told what I can and can't do with it.

I understand your main argument, which is that the manufacturer has a right to restrict the features that thier product offers and that if we don't like it we should vote with our wallets and buy something else, rather than buy their product anyway and then keep moaning about it.
That's a good argument if you're talking about a company like Apple, because their products have always been very restrictive.  Their behaviour in this respect is well established.

However, that's not what we're dealing with here.  In this case, Sony actually offered the "OtherOS" option as a feature when customers bought the machine, and in fact they touted it as a feature as well.  Then, after the consumers had bought the machine, they decided they were going to take the feature away.  Even if I'd bought a PS3 and never used the OtherOS feature, I'd still be annoyed by this.  Why? Well, it's a little bit like buying a Ferrari that does 200MPH and then all of a sudden a Ferrari send the car a software update that restricts it to 70MPH.  Sure, you probably would never have done 200MPH anyway, but who are they to take away a feature you paid for?

That's my opinion.  Sony were asking for trouble when they took away the OtherOS feature, because the only people who used this feature were hackers.  And, so, when they took it away, the only people they annoyed were the hackers.  What did they expect to happen?

By the way, when I say "hackers", I mean the true definition of hacker.  I don't mean someone who breaks software for the purpose of piracy (cracker), I mean someone who enjoys finding out how things work, tinkering with them, and modifying them to suit his/her own purpose.  There's nothing wrong with that, and I rather support it.  Sony probably didn't want their console being reverse engineered, that's understandable, but if they hadn't taken the OtherOS feature away it probably wouldn't have been.  Pretty much the only reason the other consoles got hacked was because other hardware/software enthusiasts wanted to run Linux on them.

Serves Sony right in my opinion.

AH.

[guest7146]

I'm surprised by such sentiment in an Amiga forum. We're the guys that put our motherboards into tower cases, doing a lot of work to make it happen. We have build yourself CPU accelerators, added PAL/NTSC switches to single mode computers, there's CHIP RAM addons like MegaChip, video flickerfixers like Indivision, and PCI busses like Prometheus and Mediator. If we're supposed to f-ing leave stuff the way it came from the factory, then there's a heck of a boatload of wrongdoing in our entire history.

If you want me to abide by some agreement to not tinker with the things I buy, then put it on the OUTSIDE of the friggin box so I know it before I pay up. If I don't get an opportunity to know such things until after I've paid, sorry, I really don't feel very strongly bound by it.

I totally agree with this.  Hacking stuff is the Amiga way, and as I was brought up with Amiga computers, that's the way I am.  That's why I can't stand to use Apple products.

If it weren't for talented hackers, we'd never have enjoyed all of the brilliant aftermarket products that we've seen for the Amiga over the years.  That's what being an Amiga user is all about!

AH.

[olsen]

Its sad that MGM gone bust and ok a lot was down to bad management but according to a few statics the most pirated film is Quantum of Solace so thanks folks for no more bonds.  Plus a lot of cinema's where on the verge of being closed down its only thanks to the success or 3d in the cinema that a lot have stayed open. Again the middle men are affected, the big exeecs and Hollywood stars with their millions are the last to be effected just the poor sod who work in the shops, or at the cinema.

Sony's involvement in the big mess that is MGM is at best tangential to the PS3. Their decision to throw in with the consortium which picked up the cadaver of MGM was largely seen as a way to garner support for the Blu-Ray medium. Great idea: nobody saw MGM's sole surviving asset (the huge film library, with most of the good stuff gone to Time Warner more than 20 years ago) as particularly useful anyway. The move probably just helped to stop Microsoft from grabbing this junk.

Sony's an entertainment conglomerate, and today that helps to diversify investments when some of the company's branches are not doing so well. The part of the company that develops and produces motion pictures maybe has it hardest, because this business is the most difficult to project. Big movies with large investments can tank, and then you've got to rely upon secondary income to recoup some of the loss, e.g. DVD sales or soundtrack sales.

As its worst, such a conglomerate can produce fierce company-internal infighting. It was the Sony Music branch which threw in its weight to keep the branch which made electronic music playback devices (their version of the iPod) stick to the proprietary ATRAC music compression scheme, thereby elegantly missing out on just about the entire MP3 playback device business. That's epic fail, too.

[ciento]

The sony beancounters  can calculate the damages, and recoup them
by selling only value-added PS3s, perhaps a movie subscription/games combo,
some new twist that won't bump the price enough to defeat sales.

They could also roll out an additional computer version of the console, with a full custom linux install. It was mainly a tax dodge to limit computer functionality in the
beginning, but if PS3 is 60% into its half-life, it's time to move on anyway.

They'll be lucky to dodge class-action suits due to tampering with otheros.
Such tamperings on cell phones gives phone service contract signers a legal out.
 PS3 won't be much different in a courtroom. Sony will tread lightly, even if they
shout, and wave a big styrofoam stick.
Fun times!

[Minuous]

Shouldn't it be "epic failure", not "epic fail"?

[stefcep2]

I totally agree with this.  Hacking stuff is the Amiga way, and as I was brought up with Amiga computers, that's the way I am.  That's why I can't stand to use Apple products.

If it weren't for talented hackers, we'd never have enjoyed all of the brilliant aftermarket products that we've seen for the Amiga over the years.  That's what being an Amiga user is all about!

AH.

The last time the owners of Amiga made any money would have been, oh I dunno, about 1992.

[runequester]

The last time the owners of Amiga made any money would have been, oh I dunno, about 1992.

That doesn't really contradict anything he said.

He's on to something though.

An open system will continue to grow and develop in all sorts of interesting directions. A closed system will survive only as long as its developers make it so.


Its always funny to me though that the microsofties will talk all day long about how apple is "closed off" and how they don't want that.

Apple has an open source version of OS X. Microsoft never dared to do this.

People cry about ipods and iphones being locked down (though I can use my ipod fine on linux) but are apparently fine with 360's and kinects being locked (remember, microsoft threatening legal action when the kinect was being hacked?)


If people somehow think that microsoft is the saviour of open computer standards and apple is somehow the devil, I am inclined to believe they are either ignorant, undereducated or criminally insane.

Amiga was and is a dirty word to many software houses for this very reason. The ratio I've read is anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1 Pirated:Genuine. It was even happening when the platform was on its last legs and the big names had left, and all we had was the odd bedroom programming team, or small independent programmers publishing on their own or through small publishers.

This was on the last page, but this isn't much different from what PC game developers are facing today. For OS and applications, piracy rates in north america (the lowest  region globally) are estimated at 40%. Games generally estimated at 90%, even in cases like the humble indie bundle, where you could pay as little as a damn dollar.

It has nothing to do with this or that platform. Rather, people as a general rule:
A: Want things for free
B: Feels they are entitled to said things for free, and can make up any number of excuses to do so (trust me, I've used my share)
C: Don't give a shit about the developers

[Franko]

!

[ciento]

Shouldn't it be "epic failure", not "epic fail"?

The text-message vernacular prefers one syllable words whenever poss















ible

[stefcep2]

That doesn't really contradict anything he said.

He's on to something though.

An open system will continue to grow and develop in all sorts of interesting directions. A closed system will survive only as long as its developers make it so.

Be that as it may, the fact is the PS3 is made by a private manufacturer who owns the IP to the hardware, and the software that makes the hardware do things, (or the software that allows programmers to write software that make the hardware do things),  and part of the  purchase contract is that you can use it for it certain things.  I bet Sony has no objection to people writing homebrew or running Linux, if it weren't for the fcat that these activities will be used to do things that deprive Sony and its third party develpers of legitimate income. Not "might be", but WILL BE.

This was on the last page, but this isn't much different from what PC game developers are facing today. For OS and applications, piracy rates in north america (the lowest  region globally) are estimated at 40%. Games generally estimated at 90%, even in cases like the humble indie bundle, where you could pay as little as a damn dollar.

It has nothing to do with this or that platform. Rather, people as a general rule:
A: Want things for free
B: Feels they are entitled to said things for free, and can make up any number of excuses to do so (trust me, I've used my share)
C: Don't give a shit about the developers

Ditto.  Which is why I'm on Sony's side.  I work, I get paid.  Sony's engineers/third party developers work, but they don't deserve to be paid?

[stefcep2]

While I don't quite understand what this threads about, having never bought any of these consoles. It seems to me that when you purchase one you are prevented by the manufacturers from using the machine as how you see fit.

If that's the case then you'd be crazy to buy one in the first place and if you didn't know about such a restriction before you bought it and it doesn't clearly state anything on the packaging, then I'd demand my money back or Trading Standards and my MP would have to get busy... (again...)

Yes, but people don't.  They hack the machine, use it to deprive Sony and its deveopers a legitimate income, and then pull out this "denial of freedom" BS argument to justify what they are doing.

In Aus BTW, you have no consumer right for the product to do whatecer you want, only that the manufacturer has a duty to make the product do what its supposed to.

[mongo]

Be that as it may, the fact is the PS3 is made by a private manufacturer who owns the IP to the hardware, and the software that makes the hardware do things, (or the software that allows programmers to write software that make the hardware do things),  and part of the  purchase contract is that you can use it for it certain things.

There is no purchase contract. If there was, this wouldn't be an issue.

[runequester]

Be that as it may, the fact is the PS3 is made by a private manufacturer who owns the IP to the hardware, and the software that makes the hardware do things, (or the software that allows programmers to write software that make the hardware do things),  and part of the  purchase contract is that you can use it for it certain things.  I bet Sony has no objection to people writing homebrew or running Linux, if it weren't for the fcat that these activities will be used to do things that deprive Sony and its third party develpers of legitimate income. Not "might be", but WILL BE.

I havent followed it too closely on the interwebs but it seemed that the concerns were that this was an advertised feature that was later retracted.
Thats a bit of a different concern I think.

Ditto.  Which is why I'm on Sony's side.  I work, I get paid.  Sony's engineers/third party developers work, but they don't deserve to be paid?

Agree completely. Thats why I wised up and stopped.

[AmigaNG]

Well few points, firstly comparing a amiga to ps3 hacking is a little bit of a stretch, ones a computer and so is largely regarded that you should be allowed to run any software you like and ones a game console, where its largely regarded that the manufacture can dictate what is and isnt allowed on    the console.
 
Another point is on every amiga sold there should be a sticker that reads something like if broken voids the warranty, and when commodore-amiga where active they did try and prevent hacks, I believe I remember reading that they worked with Ocean to develop something you plug into your joystick port (might of been for Robocop3) that would scramble the controls if the game was a copy, but within like a week it was hacked.  
 
Plus some of the big hacks and work arounds only came about after commodore demised and it looked like companies like gateway was'nt that bothered what happened to Amiga so where necessary. Plus again this is a computer not a games console.
 
Look at the end of the day the biggest problem I have with this story is the way they are trying to spin it that they only hacked it for linux and for homebrew gaming, I'm sorry but for £300 you paid for you ps3 you could of got a bare basic pc and have a much better linux experiences, all the home-brew you want with out the risk of braking the law, braking the hardware or having to jump around hoops to get the stuff working.

All I'm trying to say is why are these people trying to write programs for the ps3 when if they came to our community they be more than welcome to do what they liked, in fact I love these coders to come on board and show us what a xmos chip on the x1000 could do,  I'm sure aeon would welcome them etc, a load of other companies would also welcome them to do what they like with thire device but no instead they go where there not welcome.